Interesting DNA maps show very strong link between Irish/British and Spanish/Portuguese DNA

[liamliam]

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/arthwr/37862242/1950/1950_900.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg/800px-Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/__y-map.gif

http://www.slovio.com/slavic-gene/Haplogroup_I.png

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/priwas/Y-dnaBalanowsky.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JLuWdNN3c3A/UA64E0c5M6I/AAAAAAAAADY/emnbX4kB1cM/s1600/Haplogroups_europe.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xwnAive5Y9k/T8hy1TEXB9I/AAAAAAAADg0/vthwYqDi5A8/s1600/pop-finder-map-img.aspx.png

European eye colour map:

http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/166-large.jpg

European naturally light hair colour map:

http://hartleyfamily.org.uk/lighthaircolour_map.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3703/wtfbbq2a.png


Irish hair colour statistics:

Hair, skin and eye color statistics in Ireland circa 1940s


C. Wesley Dupertuis conducted a survey of Irish people in the 1940s under the guidance of the Department of Anthropology of Harvard University, and gathered the following data:[13]
At the time, the hair color of the Irish was predominantly brown. Less than 15% had black or ashen hair; 50% had dark brown hair. [13] Medium brown hues made up another 15%. Persons with blond and light brown hair accounted for close to 5%, while approximately 10% had auburn or red hair. Both golden and dark brown shades could be seen in the southwestern counties of Ireland, but fairest hair in general is most common in the Central Plain.[14] Ulster had been evidenced to have the highest frequencies of red and blond hair, with the lowest found in Wexford and Waterford.


On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory... ...75-95% of British and Irish (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the Britain and Ireland have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples...

from wikipedia:

The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Eurasia, most likely in Western Asia.[6] T. Karafet et al. estimated the age of R1, the parent of R1b, as 18,500 years before present.[1]
Early research focused upon Europe. In 2000 Ornella Semino and colleagues argued that R1b had been in Europe before the end of Ice Age, and had spread north from an Iberian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.[7] Age estimates of R1b in Europe have steadily decreased in more recent studies, at least concerning the majority of R1b, with more recent studies suggesting a Neolithic age or younger.[6][8][9][10] Only Morelli et al. have recently attempted to defend a Palaeolithic origin for R1b1b2.[11] Irrespective of STR coalescence calculations, Chikhi et al. pointed out that the timing of molecular divergences does not coincide with population splits; the TMRCA of haplogroup R1b (whether in the Palaeolithic or Neolithic) dates to its point of origin somewhere in Eurasia, and not its arrival in western Europe.[1]

Barbara Arredi and colleagues were the first to point out that the distribution of R1b STR variance in Europe forms a cline from east to west, which is more consistent with an entry into Europe from Western Asia with the spread of farming.[10] A 2009 paper by Chiaroni et al. added to this perspective by using R1b as an example of a wave haplogroup distribution, in this case from east to west.[12] The proposal of a southeastern origin of R1b were supported by three detailed studies based on large datasets published in 2010. These detected that the earliest subclades of R1b are found in western Asia and the most recent in western Europe.[6][8][13] While age estimates in these articles are all more recent than the Last Glacial Maximum, all mention the Neolithic, when farming was introduced to Europe from the Middle East as a possible candidate period. Myres et al. (August 2010), and Cruciani et al. (August 2010) both remained undecided on the exact dating of the migration or migrations responsible for this distribution, not ruling out migrations as early as the Mesolithic or as late as Hallstatt but more probably Late Neolithic.[6] They noted that direct evidence from ancient DNA may be needed to resolve these gene flows.[6] Lee et al. (May 2012) analysed the ancient DNA of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany identifying two males as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.[14] Analysis of ancient Y DNA from the remains of populations derived from early Neolithic settlements such as the Mediterranean Cardium and Central and North European LBK settlements have found an absence of males belonging to haplogroup R1b.[15][16]
European R1b is now known to be dominated by R-M269, and the origins of this branch are discussed further in more detail below.

R1b1a2 (R-M269)
R1b1a2 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M269. R1b1a2* or M269(xL23) is found at highest frequency in the central Balkans notably Kosovo with 7.9%, Macedonia 5.1% and Serbia 4.4%.[6] Kosovo is notable in also having a high percentage of descendant L23* or L23(xM412) at 11.4% unlike most other areas with significant percentages of M269* and L23* except for Poland with 2.4% and 9.5% and the Bashkirs of southeast Bashkortostan with 2.4% and 32.2% respectively.[6] Notably this Bashkir population also has a high percentage of M269 sister branch M73 at 23.4%.[6] Five individuals out of 110 tested in the Ararat Valley, Armenia belonged to R1b1a2* and 36 to L23*, with none belonging to subclades of L23.[28]
European R1b is dominated by R-M269. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[23] but with relatively high frequency among Bashkirs of the Perm Region (84.0%).[25] This marker is also present in China and India at frequencies of less than one percent. The table below lists in more detail the frequencies of M269 in various regions in Asia, Europe, and Africa.
The frequency is about 71% in Scotland, 70% in Spain and 60% in France. In south-eastern England the frequency of this clade is about 70%; in parts of the rest of north and western England, Spain, Portugal, Wales and Ireland, it is as high as 90%; and in parts of north-western Ireland it reaches 98%. It is also found in North Africa, where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria.[29]

[liamliam]

bump

[Lábaru]

Goal of Socrates!!! assisted by Aristotle!!
http://i41.tinypic.com/300fji9.gif

[Graham]

Prefer to stick with this map. It's a bit younger than R1b. :) With more tested, it has potential to spread down the West.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

[Slycooper]

Atlantic facade?

[ButlerKing]

Prefer to stick with this map. It's a bit younger than R1b. :) With more tested, it has potential to spread down the West.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif


Doesn't this mean that most British have nothing to do with Germans?

R1b-L21 is low in germans yet in Ireland is like 50-60%

[Graham]

Doesn't this mean that most British have nothing to do with Germans?

Well we don't a lot in common, only going by Male lineage. There's a stronger link on the East Coast.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gifhttp://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gifhttp://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gifhttp://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

[liamliam]

Doesn't this mean that most British have nothing to do with Germans?

R1b-L21 is low in germans yet in Ireland is like 50-60%

I think, possibly so.

Another quote I found on http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_basques03.htm


Prehistoric origin
The only archaeological evidence for an invasion of the Basque Country dates to some 40,000 years ago when Cro-Magnon people first arrived in Europe and superseded Homo neanderthalensis. Another possibility is that a precursor of the Basque language may have arrived with the advance of agriculture, some 6,000 years ago.

DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test the origins of the Basques.[1][2][3] An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation.[4] Partly as a result of DNA analysis,
"...there is a general scientific consensus that the Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic and genetic evidence..."[5]
This would make them the descendants of some of the earliest human inhabitants of Europe. The Basque genetic markers also reveal a very strong relationship with the Celts in Ireland and Wales.[6][7] The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably 45,000 to 50,000 years ago.

Genetics

Although they are genetically distinctive in some ways, the Basques are still very typically west European in terms of their Mt-DNA and Y-DNA sequences, and in terms of some other genetic loci. These same sequences are widespread throughout the western half of Europe, especially along the western fringe of the continent.

Basques, along with Irish, show the highest frequency of the Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1b in Western Europe; some 95% of native Basque men have this haplogroup. The rest is mainly I and a minimal presence of E3b. The Y-chromosome and MtDNA relationship between Basques and people of Ireland and Wales is of equal ratios as to neighboring areas of Spain, where similar ethnically "Spanish" people now live in close proximity to the Basques, although this genetic relationship is also very strong among Basques and other Spaniards.

In fact, as Stephen Oppenheimer has stated in The Origins of the British (2006), although Basques have been more isolated than other Iberians, they are a population representative of south western Europe. As to the genetic relationship among Basques, Iberians and Britons, he also states (pages 375 and 378):

On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory... ...75-95% of British and Irish (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the Britain and Ireland have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples...

[gold_fenix]

today i have read something of the common origin of the main braches of R1b in Belgium, Doggerland origin rather?


this is a copy/paste
Western Europe is dominated on the male side by haplogroup R1b1a2 (M269). Under M269 major branch represented in Europe is L11/S127:

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/83659368/homepage/name/341020?type=sn

L11/S127 is divided into two major branches: P312/S116 and U106/S21.

P312/S116 has 3 major branches: DF27, U152/S28 and L21/S145. Let's take a look at their maps:


DF27:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/P312_BB_Palmeta_Points_v001.png



U152/S28:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif



L21/S145:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif


We can clearly see that these 3 sons of P312 are respectively: "Iberian", "Italian" and "Irish".


Based on the distribution of these 3 sons it is reasonable to conclude that their parent P312 was "French".


Now let's take a look at P312's brother U106/S21:


http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif


It is clearly "Dutch".



So when we have two brothers - one "French" (Italo-Celtic?) and one "Dutch" (Germanic?)- it is tempting to believe that their parent was "Belgian" (Belgae? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae)).


Hence my question: do Western Europeans (at least their majority) come (at least on their paternal side) from Belgium?


Does anyone knows of any archeological cultures which could be connected to such Belgium-centric view for the ethnogenesis of Western Europeans?

[Graham]

The Belgae, where do you think us Keltic-Nordids came from. :P

[Lábaru]

The Belgae, where do you think us Keltic-Nordids came from. :P

Depigmented Baskid xD xD xD

[liamliam]

today i have read something of the common origin of the main braches of R1b in Belgium, Doggerland origin rather?


I'm not very good with dna but I found this on wikipedia:

R1b is a sub-clade within the much larger Eurasian MNOPS "macro-haplogroup", which is one of the predominant groupings of all the rest of human male lines outside of Africa, and this whole group, along indeed with all of macro-haplogroup F, is believed to have originated in Asia.


Macro-haplogroup MNOPS

Haplogroup M. New Guinea, Melanesia, eastern Indonesia, and Polynesia.

Macro-haplogroup NO

Haplogroup N. Mainly found in North Asia and northeastern Europe.


Haplogroup O. Mainly found in East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Austronesia.


Macro-haplogroup P

Haplogroup Q. Mainly found in North Asia and the Americas.

Macro-haplogroup R
Macro-haplogroup R1

Haplogroup R1a. Mainly found in Eastern Europe, Central Asia and South Asia.


Haplogroup R1b. Mainly found in Western Europe, Central Africa and South West Asia.



Haplogroup R2. Mainly found in South Asia.




Haplogroup S. New Guinea, Melanesia, and eastern Indonesia.


The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Eurasia, most likely in Western Asia.[6] T. Karafet et al. estimated the age of R1, the parent of R1b, as 18,500 years before present.[1]
Early research focused upon Europe. In 2000 Ornella Semino and colleagues argued that R1b had been in Europe before the end of Ice Age, and had spread north from an Iberian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.[7] Age estimates of R1b in Europe have steadily decreased in more recent studies, at least concerning the majority of R1b, with more recent studies suggesting a Neolithic age or younger.[6][8][9][10] Only Morelli et al. have recently attempted to defend a Palaeolithic origin for R1b1b2.[11] Irrespective of STR coalescence calculations, Chikhi et al. pointed out that the timing of molecular divergences does not coincide with population splits; the TMRCA of haplogroup R1b (whether in the Palaeolithic or Neolithic) dates to its point of origin somewhere in Eurasia, and not its arrival in western Europe.[1]

Barbara Arredi and colleagues were the first to point out that the distribution of R1b STR variance in Europe forms a cline from east to west, which is more consistent with an entry into Europe from Western Asia with the spread of farming.[10] A 2009 paper by Chiaroni et al. added to this perspective by using R1b as an example of a wave haplogroup distribution, in this case from east to west.[12] The proposal of a southeastern origin of R1b were supported by three detailed studies based on large datasets published in 2010. These detected that the earliest subclades of R1b are found in western Asia and the most recent in western Europe.[6][8][13] While age estimates in these articles are all more recent than the Last Glacial Maximum, all mention the Neolithic, when farming was introduced to Europe from the Middle East as a possible candidate period. Myres et al. (August 2010), and Cruciani et al. (August 2010) both remained undecided on the exact dating of the migration or migrations responsible for this distribution, not ruling out migrations as early as the Mesolithic or as late as Hallstatt but more probably Late Neolithic.[6] They noted that direct evidence from ancient DNA may be needed to resolve these gene flows.[6] Lee et al. (May 2012) analysed the ancient DNA of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany identifying two males as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.[14] Analysis of ancient Y DNA from the remains of populations derived from early Neolithic settlements such as the Mediterranean Cardium and Central and North European LBK settlements have found an absence of males belonging to haplogroup R1b.[15][16]
European R1b is now known to be dominated by R-M269, and the origins of this branch are discussed further in more detail below.

R1b1a2 (R-M269)
R1b1a2 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M269. R1b1a2* or M269(xL23) is found at highest frequency in the central Balkans notably Kosovo with 7.9%, Macedonia 5.1% and Serbia 4.4%.[6] Kosovo is notable in also having a high percentage of descendant L23* or L23(xM412) at 11.4% unlike most other areas with significant percentages of M269* and L23* except for Poland with 2.4% and 9.5% and the Bashkirs of southeast Bashkortostan with 2.4% and 32.2% respectively.[6] Notably this Bashkir population also has a high percentage of M269 sister branch M73 at 23.4%.[6] Five individuals out of 110 tested in the Ararat Valley, Armenia belonged to R1b1a2* and 36 to L23*, with none belonging to subclades of L23.[28]
European R1b is dominated by R-M269. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[23] but with relatively high frequency among Bashkirs of the Perm Region (84.0%).[25] This marker is also present in China and India at frequencies of less than one percent. The table below lists in more detail the frequencies of M269 in various regions in Asia, Europe, and Africa.
The frequency is about 71% in Scotland, 70% in Spain and 60% in France. In south-eastern England the frequency of this clade is about 70%; in parts of the rest of north and western England, Spain, Portugal, Wales and Ireland, it is as high as 90%; and in parts of north-western Ireland it reaches 98%. It is also found in North Africa, where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria.[29]
From 2003 to 2005 what is now R1b1a2 was designated R1b3. From 2005 to 2008 it was R1b1c. From 2008 to 2011 it was R1b1b2.
M269
still un-defined
R-M269* (R1b1a2*)

L23
still un-defined
R-L23* (R1b1a2a*)

L150
still un-defined
R-L150* (R1b1a2a1*)

L51/M412
still un-defined
R-L51*/R-M412* (R1b1a2a1a*)

P310/L11
still un-defined
R-P310/L11* (R1b1a2a1a1*)

U106
R-U106 (R1b1a2a1a1a)

P312
R-P312 (R1b1a2a1a1b)




R-L277 (R1b1a1a1b)


As discussed above, in articles published around 2000 it was proposed that this clade been in Europe before the last Ice Age,[30] but by 2010 more recent periods such as the European Neolithic have become the focus of proposals. A range of newer estimates for R1b1b2, or at least its dominant parts in Europe, are from 4,000 to a maximum of about 10,000 years ago, and looking in more detail is seen as suggesting a migration from Western Asia via southeastern Europe.[2][6][10][13] Western European R1b is dominated by R-P310.[2]
It was also in this period between 2000 and 2010 that it became clear that especially Western European R1b is dominated by specific sub-clades of R-M269 (with some small amounts of other types found in areas such as Sardinia[6][11]). Within Europe, R-M269 is dominated by R-M412, also known as R-L51, which according to Myres et al. (2010) is "virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia." This Western European population is further divided between R-P312/S116 and R-U106/S21, which appear to spread from the western and eastern Rhine river basin respectively. Myres et al. note further that concerning its closest relatives, in R-L23*, that it is "instructive" that these are often more than 10% of the population in the Caucasus, Turkey, and some southeast European and circum-Uralic populations. In Western Europe it is also present but in generally much lower levels apart from "an instance of 27% in Switzerland's Upper Rhone Valley."[6] In addition, the sub-clade distribution map, Figure 1h titled "L11(xU106,S116)", in Myres et al. shows that R-P310/L11* (or as yet undefined subclades of R-P310/L11) occurs only in frequencies greater than 10% in Central England with surrounding areas of England and Wales having lower frequencies.[6] This R-P310/L11* is almost non-existent in the rest of Eurasia and North Africa with the exception of coastal lands fringing the western and southern Baltic (reaching 10% in Eastern Denmark and 6% in northern Poland) and in Eastern Switzerland and surrounds.[6]
In 2009, DNA extracted from the femur bones of 6 skeletons in an early-medieval burial place in Ergolding (Bavaria, Germany) dated to around 670 AD yielded the following results: 4 were found to be haplogroup R1b with the closest matches in modern populations of Germany, Ireland and the USA while 2 were in Haplogroup G2a.[31]
Population studies which test for M269 have become more common in recent years, while in earlier studies men in this haplogroup are only visible in the data by extrapolation of what is likely. The following gives a summary of most of the studies which specifically tested for M269, showing its distribution in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia as far as China and Nepal.

[Loki]

It is clearly "Dutch".


So when we have two brothers - one "French" (Italo-Celtic?) and one "Dutch" (Germanic?)- it is tempting to believe that their parent was "Belgian" (Belgae? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae)).



No, the Belgae's distribution were more to the southwest from that red core. Netherlands itself wasn't inhabited by Celtic/Belgic tribes. It was Germanic from the start, with numerous tribes like Batavii, Frisii, Saxons, Franks.

[liamliam]

bump

[Damião de Góis]

There is shared genetic data among western europeans in general, it isn't something specific to these two regions.

[Sikeliot]

All of Western Europe has some degree of similar ancestry as does all of Southern Europe. Iberia is at the intersection of both regions and thus shares commonalities with other Western European countries of further north, and other Southern European countries of further east.

[Slycooper]

Celtic ancestry. That is why.

[gold_fenix]

Celtic ancestry. That is why.

is older that all that, France,British or Iberia time ago we shared another common culture

[Graham]

Bell Beaker & Megalithic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Megalithic_Culture.PNG

[Damião de Góis]

is older that all that, France,British or Iberia time ago we shared another common culture

Indeed, my haplogroup certainly points in that direction:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s400/s116.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

Magdalenian Woman reconstruction

http://s7.postimg.org/xg8o0xwcr/1mag.png

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-20/entertainment/chi-field-museum-lascaux-20130319_1_cave-paintings-lascaux-caves-cave-system

[Jackson]

Strong link on the y-chromosome between most of western Europe. It reaches it's apex in the far west and north-west of Europe. Autosomally there isn't a strong link, but there are commonalities in that western European countries typically share one major component (usually classified as 'Western European' or Atlantic', but it usually only peaks in areas along the Atlantic Fringe.

I don't get why people keep bringing it up though? British and Irish are more similar Autosomally and physically to the rest of northern Europe.

No it's not cro-magnon remnants or basque fishermen before anyone starts bringing that shit up again.

[Lábaru]

No it's not cro-magnon remnants or basque fishermen before anyone starts bringing that shit up again.

I prefer the theory of lost sailors of the Spanish Armada, is more consistent.

[Jackson]

Magdalenian Woman reconstruction

http://s7.postimg.org/xg8o0xwcr/1mag.png

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-20/entertainment/chi-field-museum-lascaux-20130319_1_cave-paintings-lascaux-caves-cave-system

Is it just me or is she a ringer for Plastictuga/Atlantic Islander? Although more robust and not as good looking.

[Lábaru]

Is it just me or is she a ringer for Plastictuga/Atlantic Islander? Although more robust and not as good looking.

The reconstruction reminds me of a mix of Anna Paquin and Cameron Diaz.

[Graham]

She's quite robust big faced, like the animated Pictish reconstruction in Fife..
http://www.trbimg.com/img-5148e605/turbine/chi-field-museum-stone-age-20130319-001/600/600x338
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIvRSxbRcmY/TES-hZNU_jI/AAAAAAAAAYQ/6i6v_6cY5eg/s1600/LundinLinksWoman.jpg

The two look similar. Ignore the colouring, that is guess work.

[Damião de Góis]

Actually the reconstruction reminded me of this singer :p

http://www.dn.pt/storage/ng1286447.jpg?type=big&pos=0

[Atlantic Islander]

Is it just me or is she a ringer for Plastictuga/Atlantic Islander? Although more robust and not as good looking.

Idk, maybe a little I guess. I'll take it as a compliment. ;)

[Mark]

Is it just me or is she a ringer for Plastictuga/Atlantic Islander? Although more robust and not as good looking.
Chin to Cheekbone area ONLY. - and slightly at best.

[Ibericus]

Magdalenian Woman reconstruction

http://s7.postimg.org/xg8o0xwcr/1mag.png

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-20/entertainment/chi-field-museum-lascaux-20130319_1_cave-paintings-lascaux-caves-cave-system
She looks Paleo-Iberian , like Rafa Nadal

[gold_fenix]

She looks Paleo-Iberian , like Rafa Nadal

all we know here i am the paleo iberian hahahaah
now in serious look this map of paleolithic deposits

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png/600px-Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png

[Vesuvian Sky]

Does anyone knows of any archeological cultures which could be connected to such Belgium-centric view for the ethnogenesis of Western Europeans?

From a very deep archaeological time depth component: nope.

I doubt Celtic migrations shaped the distribution of the R1b clades as we know them today as significantly as we might assume. I think some may be fair contenders for Paleo-European origins but know some are now considered Neolithic arrivals.

Many cite the aDNA R1b Beaker males as proof that its Neolithic but we must remember that this is just one study and we have many more archaeological horizons to test in order to determine proper time depth for R1b and associated clades.

[Ibericus]

all we know here i am the paleo iberian hahahaah
now in serious look this map of paleolithic deposits

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png/600px-Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png
Yes, besides the Saami and Finland, the iberians have the highest percentage of paleolithic mtDNA haplogroups. Just look at U5 + U4 + U2 (i'm not even counting H and H6) from García et al. 2011 :

Cantabria : 17.3%
Pasiegos : 19.5%
Gipuzkoa Basque : 17.7%
Asturias : 12.3%

Other Europeans :

North-Germans/Danish : 7.8%
Poland : 13.7%
Switzerland : 10.2%
Austria : 12.1%
Germany miscelanea : 11.4%
South Germany: 12%
West-Germany : 12.6%
North-East germany : 8%
Great Britain : 8.8%
Cornwall : 8.6%
Wales : 4.4%
England: 9.1%
Scotland : 9.5%
East-Ireland : 11.8%
West-Ireland: 9.4%
France , Picardy : 8.9%
France, Normandy : 11.7%
France, Loire-Atlantique : 10.6%
France, Mortbinan, Brittany : 10%
France, Finistere, Brittany : 16.1%
France, Maine-Anjou : 7.7%
France, Rhonne : 6.6%
France, Limousin : 5.6%
France, Poitou : 4.8%
France, Provence : 10.8%
France, Languedoc : 16.5%

[gold_fenix]

with the map i want to say that appear in zones of high R1b frecuency

[Jackson]

From a very deep archaeological time depth component: nope.

I doubt Celtic migrations shaped the distribution of the R1b clades as we know them today as significantly as we might assume. I think some may be fair contenders for Paleo-European origins but know some are now considered Neolithic arrivals.

Many cite the aDNA R1b Beaker males as proof that its Neolithic but we must remember that this is just one study and we have many more archaeological horizons to test in order to determine proper time depth for R1b and associated clades.

Dating (based on mutation rates) of the various R1b-M269 sub-groups renders it impossible for R1b to have been in western/northern Europe significantly before the Neolithic, or at least that if there was R1b in west and north Europe significantly pre-Neolithic, there are none of this lineages surviving in the same place today. I can't remember the exact details because i read it some time ago but if i can find more information on it i'll post it.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Dating (based on mutation rates) of the various R1b-M269 sub-groups renders it impossible for R1b to have been in western/northern Europe significantly before the Neolithic, or at least that if there was R1b in west and north Europe significantly pre-Neolithic, there are none of this lineages surviving in the same place today. I can't remember the exact details because i read it some time ago but if i can find more information on it i'll post it.

Yes I heard of this too I believe but there was the whole 2010-2012 debate on this based on modern population sampling. Some argued strictly Neolithic and other researchers challenged that much and defended the Paleo stance. To be honest I wasn't convinced that it could be completely derived from more recent Neolithic populations. I have the articles too but am a little lazy at the moment to give the synopsis on each and cite them.

Truthfully, I put more emphasis on the aDNA studies as there doesn't seem to be a firm fool proof way to date the mutations as researchers appear to bicker over which is better: Coalescence approach vs. Zhivotovsky to dating based on modern population sampling. This problem was emphasized particularly in regards to dating M-17.

[Jackson]

Yes I heard of this too I believe but there was the whole 2010-2012 debate on this based on modern population sampling. Some argued strictly Neolithic and other researchers challenged that much and defended the Paleo stance. To be honest I wasn't convinced that it could be completely derived from more recent Neolithic populations. I have the articles too but am a little lazy at the moment to give the synopsis on each and cite them.

Truthfully, I put more emphasis on the aDNA studies as there doesn't seem to be a firm fool proof way to date the mutations as researchers appear to beaker over which is better: Coalescence approach vs. Zhivotovsky to dating based on modern population sampling. This problem was emphasized particularly in regards to dating M-17.

True. You clearly know more about this than i do at the moment so i won't push my point. Although i do agree in that i think it's going to be somewhat more complicated than one thing or the other, may be a few surprises. Still it would be interesting if it did turn out to be that straightforward.

After-all it was interesting reading recently that it's actually fairly unlikely for one y line to continue for 1000 years or so, with out 'daughtering out' (or not making it altogether perhaps). Pretty neatly explains how so many of us can be closely related along the y-line so recently.

[gold_fenix]

i have read something that there is subclade of R1b ancient that modern subclades in Europe who hasn't been found in Europe, if this subclade is found in europe the theory of R1b as neolithic origin, will die and all about R1b would be more clear

[Vesuvian Sky]

True. You clearly know more about this than i do at the moment so i won't push my point. Although i do agree in that i think it's going to be somewhat more complicated than one thing or the other, may be a few surprises. Still it would be interesting if it did turn out to be that straightforward.

After-all it was interesting reading recently that it's actually fairly unlikely for one y line to continue for 1000 years or so, with out 'daughtering out' (or not making it altogether perhaps). Pretty neatly explains how so many of us can be closely related along the y-line so recently.

I think what might be happening is that the 'macro-group' or HG of R1b had deep roots in time somewhere in western Eurasian but perhaps due to mutations appears to be more recent to the eyes of geneticists. I dunno, kinda a coffee cup guess but meh its the best I can do at the moment.

Interesting thing, I was talking to a physical anthropologist recently from a pretty significant university on the east coast here in the states. I started asking him about all this in regards to autosomal DNA and what not and how it affects phenotype etc. He felt that most modern European peoples 'looks' are certainly due to more modern population processes which is understandable to a degree but truthfully I see Cromagnon written on the faces of modern Euros though to varying degrees. And its interesting because geneticists as well push for more recent explanations as to why our autosomal components and other DNA aspects are what they are today. Yet same physical anthropoligist defended Neanderthal admixture as do many geneticists (!!!).

So then what happened to all those Paleo-genes? Did only the Neanderthal ones survive?;)

[Jackson]

I think what might be happening is that the 'macro-group' or HG of R1b had deep roots in time somewhere in western Eurasian but perhaps due to mutations appears to be more recent to the eyes of geneticists. I dunno, kinda a coffee cup guess but meh its the best I can do at the moment.

Interesting thing, I was talking to a physical anthropologist recently from a pretty significant university on the east coast here in the states. I started asking him about all this in regards to autosomal DNA and what not and how it affects phenotype etc. He felt that most modern European peoples 'looks' are certainly due to more modern population processes which is understandable to a degree but truthfully I see Cromagnon written on the faces of modern Euros though to varying degrees. And its interesting because geneticists as well push for more recent explanations as to why our autosomal components and other DNA aspects are what they are today. Yet same physical anthropoligist defended Neanderthal admixture as do many geneticists (!!!).

So then what happened to all those Paleo-genes? Did only the Neanderthal ones survive?;)

Indeed i agree with you there. Actually i remember seeing pictures of some reconstructed people from the Bronze age (and also earlier). The bronze age people looked basically the same as us (as you would expect i guess!) while the Mesolithic looked significant different but the people of the post-Neolithic are clearly a blend of the pre-Neolithic and Neolithic incoming populations. I think its just that some Europeans (northern Europeans in general, north-east Europeans in particular) have more ancestry remaining from these older inhabitants.

I also think that the West Asian 'Gedrosia' type component on admixture tests must be somewhat related to R1b, or at least R1. I mean within Europe it happens to peak roughly in areas with the highest levels of R1b. Although it only forms a small minority (8-13%) of autosomal typically in the British Isles, we don't know how much these people would have had, like for example if they had this component in the order of around 50%, we could guess that these people left an autosomal imprint of around 15-30% on the modern peoples of the British Isles. While if they only carried it in about 20%, we could argue for a much higher contribution i guess.

Excuse spelling/grammatical mistakes, am tiring and typing quickly.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Indeed i agree with you there. Actually i remember seeing pictures of some reconstructed people from the Bronze age (and also earlier). The bronze age people looked basically the same as us (as you would expect i guess!) while the Mesolithic looked significant different but the people of the post-Neolithic are clearly a blend of the pre-Neolithic and Neolithic incoming populations. I think its just that some Europeans (northern Europeans in general, north-east Europeans in particular) have more ancestry remaining from these older inhabitants.

I also think that the West Asian 'Gedrosia' type component on admixture tests must be somewhat related to R1b, or at least R1. I mean within Europe it happens to peak roughly in areas with the highest levels of R1b. Although it only forms a small minority (8-13%) of autosomal typically in the British Isles, we don't know how much these people would have had, like for example if they had this component in the order of around 50%, we could guess that these people left an autosomal imprint of around 15-30% on the modern peoples of the British Isles. While if they only carried it in about 20%, we could argue for a much higher contribution i guess.

Excuse spelling/grammatical mistakes, am tiring and typing quickly.

Yes there seems to be these reductions of physical traits corresponding to reductions of autosomal components. But then what did the bulk of what makes Europeans 'European' come from? Is it mostly some sort of Paleo-gene pool that was altered due to mutations or is it the Neolithic that again would have changed due to mutations but the original imprint was indeed the West Asian which serves as the present day remainder?

Interesting is that the one physical anthropologist I talked to felt that any Paleo-look among modern day Europeans was really attributable to convergent evolutionary processes stemming from more recent founder effects. Still he felt that Paleo-genes are there too but perhaps highly reduced.

[Prince Carlo]

Yes, besides the Saami and Finland, the iberians have the highest percentage of paleolithic mtDNA haplogroups. Just look at U5 + U4 + U2 (i'm not even counting H and H6) from García et al. 2011 :

What about haplogroup V and the subclade U5b?

[Ibericus]

What about haplogroup V and the subclade U5b?
haplogroup V has still not been found in paleolithic remains...and the subclade U5b I've counted it already..the ones found (besides H and H6 ) are U2, U, U4, U5, U5a, U5b1, U5a, U5a1, U5a2a, U5b2, U5b1,

[Anthropologique]

bump

A good number of those maps are erroneous. Eupedia is usually off on their compilations. One of the maps was made up
by some Polish nationalist who is a known as a messed up crank on anthro forums.

[Anthropologique]

Yes there seems to be these reductions of physical traits corresponding to reductions of autosomal components. But then what did the bulk of what makes Europeans 'European' come from? Is it mostly some sort of Paleo-gene pool that was altered due to mutations or is it the Neolithic that again would have changed due to mutations but the original imprint was indeed the West Asian which serves as the present day remainder?

Interesting is that the one physical anthropologist I talked to felt that any Paleo-look among modern day Europeans was really attributable to convergent evolutionary processes stemming from more recent founder effects. Still he felt that Paleo-genes are there too but perhaps highly reduced.

Nice contribution.:thumb001:

[Vesuvian Sky]

Nice contribution.:thumb001:

Yes thank you.:)

I still think this matter is of course open to interpretation and naturally R1b plus its associated clades plays a prominent role in discussing the peopling of Europe, but also what ancestral SNPs R1b males would have brought to the region.

All this would have naturally had profound effects on how Europeans look today but also calls into question how far back this process actually goes. I still feel that some degree of continuance from the UP is at play here but then how did we apparently loose so much UP genes? Also, wouldn't Bronze age genes have to have had some relation to the Paleolithic but also Neolithic? Did Neolithic genes really replace all that was there during the Paleolithic or are we looking at the data wrong? How is it that Neanderthal DNA survives from the UP but not "Cromagnid" which theoretically would have been based upon the hybridization of newly arrived Out of Africa Homo-sapiens plus the local Neanderthals.

I think too our aDNA samples that we have from the Paleolithic-Mesolithic may be too insufficient for us to draw firm conclusions at the moment. There may be other unique autosomal sets at play here that we haven't found from the aDNA that may have had significant effects upon Europe's genetic structure.

[gold_fenix]

Yes thank you.:)

I still think this matter is of course open to interpretation and naturally R1b plus its associated clades plays a prominent role in discussing the peopling of Europe, but also what ancestral SNPs R1b males would have brought to the region.

All this would have naturally had profound effects on how Europeans look today but also calls into question how far back this process actually goes. I still feel that some degree of continuance from the UP is at play here but then how did we apparently loose so much UP genes? Also, wouldn't Bronze age genes have to have had some relation to the Paleolithic but also Neolithic? Did Neolithic genes really replace all that was there during the Paleolithic or are we looking at the data wrong? How is it that Neanderthal DNA survives from the UP but not "Cromagnid" which theoretically would have been based upon the hybridization of newly arrived Out of Africa Homo-sapiens plus the local Neanderthals.

I think too our aDNA samples that we have from the Paleolithic-Mesolithic may be too insufficient for us to draw firm conclusions at the moment. There may be other unique autosomal sets at play here that we haven't found from the aDNA that may have had significant effects upon Europe's genetic structure.

some expert claim that most of european that the 80% our DNA is from paleolithic and the rest from neolithic invaders

[Anthropologique]

Yes thank you.:)

I still think this matter is of course open to interpretation and naturally R1b plus its associated clades plays a prominent role in discussing the peopling of Europe, but also what ancestral SNPs R1b males would have brought to the region.

All this would have naturally had profound effects on how Europeans look today but also calls into question how far back this process actually goes. I still feel that some degree of continuance from the UP is at play here but then how did we apparently loose so much UP genes? Also, wouldn't Bronze age genes have to have had some relation to the Paleolithic but also Neolithic? Did Neolithic genes really replace all that was there during the Paleolithic or are we looking at the data wrong? How is it that Neanderthal DNA survives from the UP but not "Cromagnid" which theoretically would have been based upon the hybridization of newly arrived Out of Africa Homo-sapiens plus the local Neanderthals.

I think too our aDNA samples that we have from the Paleolithic-Mesolithic may be too insufficient for us to draw firm conclusions at the moment. There may be other unique autosomal sets at play here that we haven't found from the aDNA that may have had significant effects upon Europe's genetic structure.

Much is certainly still open to interpretation. We need more corpus findings from the Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic.

[Mans not hot]

A good number of those maps are erroneous. Eupedia is usually off on their compilations. One of the maps was made up
by some Polish nationalist who is a known as a messed up crank on anthro forums.
:picard2:

None of these maps was made up by Polish nationalist.

[HispaniaSagrada]

The reconstruction reminds me of a mix of Anna Paquin and Cameron Diaz.

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5148e605/turbine/chi-field-museum-stone-age-20130319-001/600/600x338



Reminds me a little bit of Claire Danes

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Claire_Danes_2012_Shankbone.JPG/479px-Claire_Danes_2012_Shankbone.JPG

[Vesuvian Sky]

some expert claim that most of european that the 80% our DNA is from paleolithic and the rest from neolithic invaders

Was it a recent source though? The reverse seems to have been argued for recently but I'm interested in hearing someone defend the Paleolithic stance.

Actually do you still have the source?

[gold_fenix]

Was it a recent source though? The reverse seems to have been argued for recently but I'm interested in hearing someone defend the Paleolithic stance.

Actually do you still have the source?

from http://www.panshin.com/trogholm/wonder/indoeuropean/indoeuropean1.html

"However, in recent years, the agriculturalist theory has been undermined in turn by the hard facts of genetic analysis. It seems that the Neolithic farmers who entered Europe from the Near East and North Africa were the source of no more than 20% of present-day European DNA, with the other 80% going back to the Paleolithic. Apparently the farming folk, rather than multiplying rapidly and assimilating small bands of primitive hunters, were themselves the ones who were assimilated. And, as Renfrew himself had pointed out, except in the special case of imperial conquest -- which was unknown before the rise of civilization -- it is unheard of for the language of a limited number of intruders to supplant that of the natives.

The DNA evidence also creates problems for the alternative theory that Indo-European was originally the language of certain inhabitants of the Balkans, who acquired agriculture from the east at an early date and spread it throughout the rest of Europe. It seems that Europeans just haven't moved around very much since they reoccupied the northern part of the continent at the end of the Ice Age. For example, when a nine thousand year old skeleton from Cheddar, England was subjected to DNA testing in 1997, it turned out that a local schoolteacher was an almost direct descendent.

In light of the DNA evidence, it is now being acknowledged that all the earliest agricultural societies in Europe show considerable similarity to the non-farming cultures that preceded them. It seems like an obvious conclusion that if there was both genetic continuity and cultural continuity during this major transition, there must have been linguistic continuity as well."

[Vesuvian Sky]

from http://www.panshin.com/trogholm/wonder/indoeuropean/indoeuropean1.html

"However, in recent years, the agriculturalist theory has been undermined in turn by the hard facts of genetic analysis. It seems that the Neolithic farmers who entered Europe from the Near East and North Africa were the source of no more than 20% of present-day European DNA, with the other 80% going back to the Paleolithic. Apparently the farming folk, rather than multiplying rapidly and assimilating small bands of primitive hunters, were themselves the ones who were assimilated. And, as Renfrew himself had pointed out, except in the special case of imperial conquest -- which was unknown before the rise of civilization -- it is unheard of for the language of a limited number of intruders to supplant that of the natives.

The DNA evidence also creates problems for the alternative theory that Indo-European was originally the language of certain inhabitants of the Balkans, who acquired agriculture from the east at an early date and spread it throughout the rest of Europe. It seems that Europeans just haven't moved around very much since they reoccupied the northern part of the continent at the end of the Ice Age. For example, when a nine thousand year old skeleton from Cheddar, England was subjected to DNA testing in 1997, it turned out that a local schoolteacher was an almost direct descendent.

In light of the DNA evidence, it is now being acknowledged that all the earliest agricultural societies in Europe show considerable similarity to the non-farming cultures that preceded them. It seems like an obvious conclusion that if there was both genetic continuity and cultural continuity during this major transition, there must have been linguistic continuity as well."

Oh I thought you had a peer reviewed source...

Most of the literature from peer reviewed sources has done an about face but there are still some who challenged the Neolithic replacement theory.

I forgot about the Cheddar man finding though. I remember reading about that a while ago but its not cited so much anymore cause there is a focus on Neolithic replacement more nowadays. Unfortunately its also an older study.

[gold_fenix]

Like you say we need more specimen from paleolithic and extration of DNA in these cases are complex

[HispaniaSagrada]

The reconstruction reminds me of a mix of Anna Paquin and Cameron Diaz.

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5148e605/turbine/chi-field-museum-stone-age-20130319-001/600/600x338



Reminds me a little bit of Claire Danes

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Claire_Danes_2012_Shankbone.JPG/479px-Claire_Danes_2012_Shankbone.JPG

And also this one, supposedly Spanish from Seville from another thread on Apricity I just happened to find...

http://i45.tinypic.com/zn0qiq.jpg

[Anthropologique]

:picard2:

None of these maps was made up by Polish nationalist.

Sorry. You're right. The clown who made up at least one of the maps is an Albanian. GASP!!

[Jackson]

from http://www.panshin.com/trogholm/wonder/indoeuropean/indoeuropean1.html

"However, in recent years, the agriculturalist theory has been undermined in turn by the hard facts of genetic analysis. It seems that the Neolithic farmers who entered Europe from the Near East and North Africa were the source of no more than 20% of present-day European DNA, with the other 80% going back to the Paleolithic. Apparently the farming folk, rather than multiplying rapidly and assimilating small bands of primitive hunters, were themselves the ones who were assimilated. And, as Renfrew himself had pointed out, except in the special case of imperial conquest -- which was unknown before the rise of civilization -- it is unheard of for the language of a limited number of intruders to supplant that of the natives.

The DNA evidence also creates problems for the alternative theory that Indo-European was originally the language of certain inhabitants of the Balkans, who acquired agriculture from the east at an early date and spread it throughout the rest of Europe. It seems that Europeans just haven't moved around very much since they reoccupied the northern part of the continent at the end of the Ice Age. For example, when a nine thousand year old skeleton from Cheddar, England was subjected to DNA testing in 1997, it turned out that a local schoolteacher was an almost direct descendent.

In light of the DNA evidence, it is now being acknowledged that all the earliest agricultural societies in Europe show considerable similarity to the non-farming cultures that preceded them. It seems like an obvious conclusion that if there was both genetic continuity and cultural continuity during this major transition, there must have been linguistic continuity as well."

Well now we have hunter gatherer and farmer remains (from Sweden in particular) and that they were ethnically very different but living in the same place, and that all modern Europeans are a mixture of the two - Even the most Mesolithic people in Europe still show significant admixture from farmers, and in other places its much higher. It is clear that there was a big ethnic change at least. Btw the Cheddar man could have been linked with about 10% (I think?) of the British population. In fact i could also be a 'direct descendant' of Cheddar man using the same criteria.

[Vesuvian Sky]

It is clear that there was a big ethnic change at least. Btw the Cheddar man could have been linked with about 10% (I think?) of the British population. In fact i could also be a 'direct descendant' of Cheddar man using the same criteria.

I remember that study and it was done a while ago, but what were they looking at DNA wise? Wasn't it the mtDNA of Cheddar man?

[Jackson]

I remember that study and it was done a while ago, but what were they looking at DNA wise? Wasn't it the mtDNA of Cheddar man?

Yeah indeed they looked at his mtDNA. To be honest for the time they did it, i think they are somewhat excused for making linkages like this, early days.
He turned out to be U5, although some people on genetics forums at least are pretty sure he was U5a, but it is not certain and safer to say he is U5.

[liamliam]

bump

[Sikeliot]

When we see that Iberians score nearly 30-40% of the "Northern European" component on some analyses, I think that is the shared component between them and the British/Irish as well as the small amount of Mediterranean affinity in the British Isles.

But overall, the two populations don't cluster exactly due to other influences, such as a Sardinian-like component in Iberians and a Nordic one in the British and Irish.

[Jackson]

When we see that Iberians score nearly 30-40% of the "Northern European" component on some analyses, I think that is the shared component between them and the British/Irish as well as the small amount of Mediterranean affinity in the British Isles.

But overall, the two populations don't cluster exactly due to other influences, such as a Sardinian-like component in Iberians and a Nordic one in the British and Irish.

Indeed, it's a mixture of Iberians being quite northern for southern Europeans, and the British Isles being slightly more southern than much of northern Europe.

[gold_fenix]

Indeed, it's a mixture of Iberians being quite northern for southern Europeans, and the British Isles being slightly more southern than much of northern Europe.

Perhaps se should use the. western component

[Sikeliot]

Indeed, it's a mixture of Iberians being quite northern for southern Europeans, and the British Isles being slightly more southern than much of northern Europe.

Yes, that is correct. And so they fall, respectively, at the southern end of the "northern" cluster in the case of Brits, and the northern end of the "southern" cluster for Iberians.

[Loki]

When we see that Iberians score nearly 30-40% of the "Northern European" component on some analyses, I think that is the shared component between them and the British/Irish as well as the small amount of Mediterranean affinity in the British Isles.


Also, don't forget the genetic contributions of various Germanic tribes that settled there.

[Sikeliot]

Also, don't forget the genetic contributions of various Germanic tribes that settled there.

That could be as well. Although I suspect that much of it is also due to old Paleolithic strains. :) Either (or both) could be probable.

[Anglojew]

Clearly the North-West of Spain is very similar to Britain.

[PeacefulCaribbeanDutch]

I can prove it to you in one picture, but can you handle it?

A portuguese and a british man that look identical.

[Jackson]

Clearly the North-West of Spain is very similar to Britain.

As far as i know they cluster with other Iberians, although they may be a bit more northern, than average, not sure.

[Vasconcelos]

As far as i know they cluster with other Iberians, although they may be a bit more northern, than average, not sure.

They aren't really any different, at least from a "looks-PoV".

[Lábaru]

come on guys, we have dozens of modern genetic studies for know this.

[Sikeliot]

As far as i know they cluster with other Iberians, although they may be a bit more northern, than average, not sure.

Galicians should be pretty much the same people as the Portuguese.

[liamliam]

bump