Sicilian genetics.. why no east/west genetic division, but a phenotypical one?

[Sikeliot]

Western and eastern Sicilians on Dodecad, 23andme, etc do not AS A RULE seem to be genetically different despite being inhabited by very different groups (Greeks and Sicels in the east and Phoenicians, Normans, Moors, Elymians, and Sicanians in the west). There is a general phenotypical trend for each part of the island.. so why is there no large-scale, consistent genetic difference?

Apart from western Sicilians having a small bit more North African and Northern European, there does not seem to be a major genetic difference. All Sicilians are primarily a combination of Neolithic West Asian, and Paleolithic Southern European.

My hypothesis, first off, is that the Elymians, Sicels, and Sicanians contributed almost nothing to our DNA and they were overwhelmed by colonizing Greeks and Phoenicians. Sicanians were said to be Iberian but no Sicilian clusters anywhere near Iberia, nor near Liguria which is said to be the home of the Sicels.

I personally think that the Greeks eventually expanded across the whole island, and that no other colonizing group had a large-scale genetic impact.

So why is there a phenotypical difference? Even the blondest, most blue eyed Sicilian (and there are many of them) has significant West Asian ancestry and small residual North African.

[Peyrol]

Voted laterst option.

Btw, is difficult see if the ''west asian'' and ''north afr.'' admisture in a sicilian person is recent (Almohad conquest) or ancient (Sikels, Phoenicians, hellenized Anatolic roman settlers, etc).

[Sikeliot]

Well what I am wondering is this. People in western Sicily have almost as much West Asian as people in eastern Sicily, with slightly more SW Asian and North African, but they also have a little bit more Northern European that often comes at the expense of the West Asian and Mediterranean components, compared to easterners.

So, if not Greek, there has to be some group that contributed a lot of West Asian admixture to western Sicilians. It could have been Phoenicians, or the Elymians, or even prehistoric Neolithics. But I will say from someone I know who has been to Palermo province, he said there are many people with a distinct Anatolian and South Caucasus (Armenian) type of appearance, which might lend credibility to the Elymian idea. The Elymians were said to be from western Turkey (Troy), but I have read in books that archaeologists believe they came from central or eastern Anatolia, which would put them as closer relatives to the Armenians.

[Peyrol]

Well what I am wondering is this. People in western Sicily have almost as much West Asian as people in eastern Sicily, with slightly more SW Asian and North African, but they also have a little bit more Northern European that often comes at the expense of the West Asian and Mediterranean components, compared to easterners.

So, if not Greek, there has to be some group that contributed a lot of West Asian admixture to western Sicilians. It could have been Phoenicians, or the Elymians, or even prehistoric Neolithics. But I will say from someone I know who has been to Palermo province, he said there are many people with a distinct Anatolian and South Caucasus (Armenian) type of appearance, which might lend credibility to the Elymian idea. The Elymians were said to be from western Turkey (Troy), but I have read in books that archaeologists believe they came from central or eastern Anatolia, which would put them as closer relatives to the Armenians.


There is also a dispute about ''indoeuropeaness'' of Elymians.
Some people think that they were tyrrenics, so related with Etruscans and Rhaetians.

[alfieb]

If Dienekes separated Sicilians into two different groups (E/W), we would see the difference, but there is only one "Sicilian" group.

Consider. There is nothing at all abnormal about Sicilianu101, but he shows up slightly southeast (2D) of the "Sicilian" plot rather than inside of it. Why? Because Western Sicilians have more "European" DNA than he does and throw off the average for the group.

[Sikeliot]

I've always assumed Elymians were an Anatolian population akin to Armenians. I saw something along those lines in a book at my local bookstore about Sicily, saying they were an Anatolian population.

[Sikeliot]

If Dienekes separated Sicilians into two different groups (E/W), we would see the difference, but there is only one "Sicilian" group.

Consider. There is nothing at all abnormal about Sicilianu101, but he shows up southeast (2D) of the "Sicilian" plot rather than inside of it. Why? Because Western Sicilians have more "European" DNA than he does and throw off the average for the group.

Eastern Sicilians are supposed to be mostly Greek, but many Greeks today cluster in a different place than eastern Sicilians. I am sharing with Greeks on 23andme and the only ones now clustering near Sicilians are Aegean islanders, southern Peloponnesians, and Anatolian Greeks.

So do you think Sicilianu101 is a typical eastern Sicilian and if you divided the island in half, the east would on their own cluster outside of Europe? I am slightly confused.

[Peyrol]

I've always assumed Elymians were an Anatolian population akin to Armenians. I saw something along those lines in a book at my local bookstore about Sicily, saying they were an Anatolian population.

I found this in the italian Wikipedia about Elymes:


Le origini degli Elimi (in greco antico Elymii, Ελύμιοι) sono sconosciute. Nella mitologia greca Elimo, figlio illegittimo di Anchise, seguì Enea in Sicilia e fondò delle città.

Gli Elimi probabilmente derivano dalla mescolanza di genti autoctone con popolazione di tipo egeo e, forse, gruppi liguri. Sembra certa la loro origine non greca e questo spiegherebbe la perenne rivalità con Selinunte.

L'antico nome Elima, richiama il periodo in cui i Greci distrussero Troia 1184 a.C., la città dell'Asia Minore. Il principe Elimo insieme ad Aceste e altri compagni presero il mare per trovare salvezza in Sicilia e si fermarono nella regione del Crimiso. Enea, loro amico, partito da Troia con una ventina di navi e oltre tremila uomini, sbarcò a Trapani; per caso Enea ritrovò Elimo e dato che non vi erano speranze di poter tornare in patria, edificò due città che presero nome Elima ed Egesta dal nome di Elimo e di Egesto, i suoi compagni. Egesta sarebbe l'attuale Segesta; Elima sorse sul monte dove aveva trovati i compagni di Elimo. La regione venne chiamata Elimica ed i popoli che vi si stanziarono presero il nome di Elimi.

[Sikeliot]

Then where did the high West Asian and Southwest Asian influence even present in western Sicilians come from? If not the Elymians (which if they are Aegean and Ligurian in origin it couldn't be them) then it would have had to be Phoenicians or prehistoric Neolithics.

[alfieb]

As to the whole "Greek" thing, it's highly possible that either or even both the Sicels and Sicanians were Illyrian tribes from the Balkans, who were later with the arrival of the Siceliotes (Greek Sicilians) became Hellenized and mixed with the colonials. Being that Illyrians and Greeks were already close, it would be as though the Sicels and Sicanians had never existed.

[Peyrol]

Then where did the high West Asian and Southwest Asian influence even present in western Sicilians come from? If not the Elymians (which if they are Aegean and Ligurian in origin it couldn't be them) then it would have had to be Phoenicians or prehistoric Neolithics.


Probabily there was a first wave of troian/anatolic settlers, and later some ligurian and other aegean settlements.
That's explain the fierce rivalry between Selinunte (a Spartan colony) and the Elymes.

[Sikeliot]

As to the whole "Greek" thing, it's highly possible that either or even both the Sicels and Sicanians were Illyrian tribes from the Balkans, who were later with the arrival of the Siceliotes (Greek Sicilians) became Hellenized. Being that Illyrians and Greeks were already close, it would be as though the Sicels and Sicanians had never existed.

Well it is said the Sicanians came from Iberia, but if that is so, it would have to mean they contributed not much at all to Sicilians' genes, since I've never seen a Sicilian cluster near, or share any reasonable amount of, DNA with an Iberian except for the significant "Mediterranean" component ALL Southern Europeans and even Mediterranean non-Europeans share.

I do know that neither the Sicels nor Sicanians were allowed, by the Greeks, to live near the coasts. So if you wanted to find their ancestry, looking toward Caltanissetta and Enna, or inner Palermo, would be the place to do it.

[Sikeliot]

Probabily there was a first wave of troian/anatolic settlers, and later some ligurian and other aegean settlements.
That's explain the fierce rivalry between Selinunte (a Spartan colony) and the Elymes.

So it'd suggest that the Elymians were a group of mixed Italic and Anatolian affinities. So do you think they were from the Aegean coast of Anatolia, or further in?

[alfieb]

I do know that neither the Sicels nor Sicanians were allowed, by the Greeks, to live near the coasts. So if you wanted to find their ancestry, looking toward Caltanissetta and Enna, or inner Palermo, would be the place to do it.
Nah, it doesn't get much more "Inner Palermo" as my village (we border Caltanissetta), and that area is where the Norman descent seems to peak. Then again, more Sicanian influence would explain even further why we're different from most.

[Peyrol]

So it'd suggest that the Elymians were a group of mixed Italic and Anatolian affinities. So do you think they were from the Aegean coast of Anatolia, or further in?

Tyrann Pitagoras of Selinunte wrote that they were mostly of troian stock, and the language was a ''disgusting blasphemy of ionian language''.
They weren't allowed to settle in the city, yes...and don't forget that Selinunte had more than 100,000 inhabithants during the Golden Era of the greek Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

Nah, it doesn't get much more "Inner Palermo" as my village (we border Caltanissetta), and that area is where the Norman descent seems to peak. Then again, more Sicanian influence would explain even further why we're different from most.

So I would actually think that the Sicanians were bred out of the population for the most part, if not by Greeks and Phoenicians, then by the Normans.

Sicanians would have ended up near Caltanissetta, but people in that region often have Armenoid, not Iberian, features. But I have also heard it suggested that the Sicanians were more similar to Guanches and Berbers, rather than Celt-Iberians.



Tyrann Pitagoras of Selinunte wrote that they were mostly of troian stock, and the language was a ''disgusting blasphemy of ionian language''.
They weren't allowed to settle in the city, yes...and don't forget that Selinunte had more than 100,000 inhabithants during the Golden Era of the greek Sicily.


What would Trojans and Elymians have looked like? Obviously, Anatolia would have looked less European than today and would not yet have been mixed with the Greeks.

[alfieb]

Sicanians would have ended up near Caltanissetta, but people in that region often have Armenoid, not Iberian, features. But I have also heard it suggested that the Sicanians were more similar to Guanches and Berbers, rather than Celt-Iberians.

That would be rather convenient for you, as you believe that I look Berid. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

That would be rather convenient for you, as you believe that I look Berid. :lol:

It actually would. But do you cluster near Iberians, or no? You're also 25% non-Sicilian and that may pull you north.

No one else thought you looked Iberian really except for me. I was alone on that one :lol:

[alfieb]

French, but not Iberians, no.

[Sikeliot]

Well also we'd have to think that Iberians back then would not have been exactly the same as today.
I used to think that the residual "North African" that all Sicilians have might have come from the Sicanians and would represent their genetic input, but I am unsure about that now.

[alfieb]

Why would it? the later Phoenicians, the Muslim Arab-Berbers, and even the Vandals came to us through North Africa.

[Sikeliot]

The original Phoenician settlers came directly from Lebanon, but their descendants (the Carthaginians) did so through North Africa.

For the record I now saw that some scholars do think the Sicanians were Illyrians, which would make much more sense based on what we know of Sicilian genetics than if they were Iberian.

[Peyrol]

Why would it? the later Phoenicians, the Muslim Arab-Berbers, and even the Vandals came to us through North Africa.

...and the lombards.
Some lombard settled in central-western part of the island in the Middle Ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily

[Sikeliot]

...and the lombards.
Some lombard settled in central-western part of the island in the Middle Ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily

That could explain, if not explained by Normans, a higher Northern Euro component in some.

[alfieb]

Anyway, RT, If any of our indigenous peoples came from the Maghreb, then the scientific community would not believe, as they currently do, that Malta was first colonized from Sicily thousands of years after our three 'indigenous' groups arrived in Sicily.


...and the lombards.
Some lombard settled in central-western part of the island in the Middle Ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily

Right. I've been to some of those towns (mostly Ciazza), the language is quite different from our own. I hope that it survives for the centuries to come, as they have enriched our history and culture with their presence.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Tough to put even into just a few categories. Sicily has had a rich array of demographic factors at play throughout the Island's history. I wouldn't discount any possibility from prehistoric times to late medieval as significantly influencing Sicilian genes in some manner.

[Peyrol]

Anyway, RT, If any of our indigenous peoples came from the Maghreb, then the scientific community would not believe, as they currently do, that Malta was first colonized from Sicily thousands of years after our three 'indigenous' groups arrived in Sicily.



Right. I've been to some of those towns (mostly Ciazza), the language is quite different from our own. I hope that it survives for the centuries to come, as they have enriched our history and culture with their presence.

Gaul-italic of Sicily is dying, unfortunately...

[alfieb]

Gaul-italic of Sicily is dying, unfortunately...
They say that Sicilian and Arbereshe are endangered also. Why? Italian government, Italian media, etc.

[Sikeliot]

Tough to put even into just a few categories. Sicily has had a rich array of demographic factors at play throughout the Island's history. I wouldn't discount any possibility from prehistoric times to late medieval as significantly influencing Sicilian genes in some manner.

Which groups?

I am almost inclined to believe that the single largest component in MOST Sicilians is now Greek, whether from east or western Sicily. Greeks colonized pretty much the whole island except parts of Trapani and Palermo, but there were Greek settlements all over during the Byzantine years.

Genetic testing does not support the idea to me that most of our ancestry is from the Sicanians, Sicels, and Elymians. Yet I am still inclined to believe that depending on the area, some towns will be more Norman than average, others more Phoenician and Carthaginian, etc.

I am unsure why I care about this given that Messina is predominantly a Greek descended area, so I can say with great certainty that I am at least 1/3 ancient Greek.

[alfieb]

I am unsure why I care about this given that Messina is predominantly a Greek descended area, so I can say with great certainty that I am at least 1/3 ancient Greek.
Because Sicilians are Sicilians, whether from Tràpani or Sarausa. The genetic history of one is part of the history of all.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Which groups?

I am almost inclined to believe that the single largest component in MOST Sicilians is now Greek, whether from east or western Sicily. Greeks colonized pretty much the whole island except parts of Trapani and Palermo, but there were Greek settlements all over during the Byzantine years.

Genetic testing does not support the idea to me that most of our ancestry is from the Sicanians, Sicels, and Elymians.

Naturally, I believe that from a historical perspective, Greek colonization left a significant genetic input upon just about all of southern Italy.

The real question for me these days is what is the genetic signature of Proto-Italic people's DNA? Then again there is some ambiguity on how to properly classify the Sicel language.

[Sikeliot]

I will say, I think that parts of Agrigento are heavy on North African ancestry.

For instance here is a girl from Sciacca.. she looks extremely Berber in my opinion, but maybe I am wrong... but I have seen a number of people from that area of this phenotype.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293068_3868186018205_667669446_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/481177_4781323686076_1971489358_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/408995_4825704595571_2044193347_n.jpg

[alfieb]

For instance here is a girl from Sciacca..
I have told you for years, Sciacca is the extreme in terms of African input. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

Another one from Sciacca.. not sure if he looks "North African" per se.. but something. Do you think the girl above looked Berber?

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/406934_4415246257482_929387006_n.jpg


And then likewise I find a lot of people from Palermo to be lighter and able to pass in Northern Europe. But as I indicated even the blonde, blue eyed Sicilians I know on 23andme with roots in Palermo cluster southward which is what prompted this thread.




The real question for me these days is what is the genetic signature of Proto-Italic people's DNA? Then again there is some ambiguity on how to properly classify the Sicel language.

I would assume that they would have been Central European much like Celtic groups.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I would assume that they would have been Central European much like Celtic groups.

That's the thing though. It really depends on which Indo-Europeanization of Italy theory one subscribes to. For instance, anything tied to late bronze Terramare Culture theory would certainly coincide with the notion that Proto-Italics were rather "C. European" in their DNA. Pigorini's interpretation of the "Terramare Invasion" is indeed one of Central European communities transplanting themselves wholesale throughout much of Italy.

On the other hand, Gimbutas' late Copper Age Kurgan chief invasion scenario with explicit links to the archaeology found N. of the Black Sea is described more as a "take over scenario" which would have left the genetic structure of the locals largely unaltered. But the Indo-Europeanization process that leads to Proto-Italic would begin with this event according to her.

There's a part of me that is uncertain in regards to Pigorini''s theory because its so late, and much of c. Europe was probably quite Celtic at this time. Linguists don't really agree to Italo-Celtic that much anymore so I'm more inclined to view the development of Proto-Italic to have occurred from processes stemming from a deeper point in time (what Gimbutas was saying).

Also, significant parts of Italy were receiving gene flow from Celtic and Germanic people during historical times which would also have provided additional layers of Central European genes upon the population. So the challenge would be sifting through more recent (historic Celto-Germanic invasions) C. European genes from pre-historic (Terramare Culture, Goalesce Culture etc.).

[Peyrol]

They say that Sicilian and Arbereshe are endangered also. Why? Italian government, Italian media, etc.

Yes.

Mostly post war television...from 1950 to nowadays...proper sicilian isn't so endangered, btw.

[Peyrol]

There was also a little roman settlement

(map of roman colonies/settlements in their Empire)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_umhSvWEgx2c/TClAOLxqQfI/AAAAAAAAFbY/dj145Fo8p5E/s1600/colonie.jpg

[alfieb]

Yes.

Mostly post war television...from 1950 to nowadays...proper sicilian isn't so endangered, btw.

That's debatable. There are a half-dozen dialects of Sicilian and no standard form, because the government does not allow it to be treated as a language. It is not on signs, it is not in the classroom, not on TV, etc.

We cannot be sure which version of "proper Sicilian" will be around in 50 years, if any.

[Sikeliot]

There was also a little roman settlement

(map of roman colonies/settlements in their Empire)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_umhSvWEgx2c/TClAOLxqQfI/AAAAAAAAFbY/dj145Fo8p5E/s1600/colonie.jpg

Romans were conquerors more than settlers, but it'd also be hard to discern Sicels from Romans genetically since both were Italic.

[Peyrol]

Romans were conquerors more than settlers, but it'd also be hard to discern Sicels from Romans genetically since both were Italic.

That's true, but the map show the proper colonies.

The colonies were populated by 10 roman gens (extended ''families'') to help the romanizatio of the areas.