Sicilian haplogroups by province according to Sicilian DNA Project.

[Sikeliot]

This will be interesting because it may show more about regional variation, even though haplogroups only tell part of the story.

This is based off the results that have the province listed. And yes, I did go and search every town listed and categorize them into this list.


Eastern Sicily

Messina:

E1b1b1
G2a
G2a3b2
G2a3b1
I1
I1
J2
J2
J2
J2a
R1a1a
R1a1a
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2


Catania:

E1b1b1
J2
J2
J2a4b
J2a4
J2a4h2a
R1b1a2



Enna:

J1c3d
J2a4
J2a4b1
R1b1a2a1a1b3c

Syracuse:

R1b1a2a1


Ragusa:

I
T1


Western Sicily


Palermo:

E1b1b1
E1b1b1
E1b1b1
E1b1b1a1b
E1b1b1c1a
G2
G
I1
I1
I
I2b1
J1
J1
J2
J2
J2
J2
J2
J2a4h2
J2b2
J2b
J2b2
R1a1a
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2a1a1a4
R1b1a2a1a1a4
R1b1a2a
R1b1a2a
R1b1a2a1a1b3
R1b1a2a1a1b3c1
R1b1a2a1a1b3c
R1b1a2a1a1b3c
R1b1a2a1a1b4
R1b1a2
R1b1a2a1a1b5a
T1
T1



Trapani:

E1b1b1
J1c3
J2
J2
J2b1
R1b1a2
R1b1a2a1a1b3
T1


Agrigento:

E1b1b1
G
G2a1a
G2a3b1
G2a3b1
I1
J2
J2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
R1b1a2
T1


Caltanissetta:

E1b1b1a1b
E1b1b1b1b
E1b1b1
I2b1
R1b1a2

[alfieb]

Surprising, the lack of Eastern E1b1b.

[Sikeliot]

As can be expected all the "Arab" haplogroups like T and J1 are almost exclusively found in the west.

[alfieb]

Not really. E1b1b is the dominant HG in much of Greece.

Edit: Maybe I misread your post, but I interpreted that to be saying that you expected E1b1b to be Western.

[Sikeliot]

No I mean J1 and T, both Arab haplogroups, are found in western and not eastern Sicily.

I am surprised by the lack of E1b1b in eastern Sicily too.

[alfieb]

All in all, it goes along with what I've always said, that R1b is the predominant HG on the island as a whole.

[Sikeliot]

Professional studies say it's J2, but that R1a + R1b together makes up more than J2.

[alfieb]

Based on the Sicily Project mapmode, which reveals more locations but does not include all of the members, I was able to compile the following map:

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2e1hw2c.jpg



Raw numbers:



EASTERN SICILY

MESSINA
J2 (8)
E1b (7)
R1b (6)
G (5)
I1 (2)
I2 (2)
R1a (2)
J1 (1)
Q (1)

RAGUSA
I1 (2)
I2 (1)
R1a (1)
E1b (1)
G (1)
J2 (1)
T (1)

SYRACUSE
R1b (4)
R1a (1)
E1b (1)
J2 (1)

CATANIA
J2 (6)
E1b (3)
J1 (2)
R1b (2)
I2 (1)
T (1)

ENNA
J2 (3)
R1b (3)
G (1)



WESTERN SICILY

CALTANISSETTA
E1b (5)
J2 (4)
I2 (1)
R1a (1)
R1b (1)
A (1)

AGRIGENTO
J2 (5)
G (5)
E1b (3)
R1b (2)
T (1)
L (1)

TRAPANI
J2 (5)
R1b (4)
T (2)
J1 (1)
I1 (1)
G (1)

PALERMO
R1b (15)
J2 (10)
E1b (8)
I2 (4)
J1 (4)
R1a (3)
G (2)
I1 (1)
T (1)

In most cases, you may have noticed that the dominant haplogroup isn't very dominant at all, but haplogroups do tell quite a bit. Notice that Trapani has no E1b1b, while Palermo and Agrigento have plenty of it. That means to me, at least based on Sicily Project's results, that the Elymians and Phoenicians are unlikely to have carried the gene, as they were predominantly based in Trapani.

[Sikeliot]

The map makes sense to me. I am surprised by Enna but then again is correct and the Sikels were pushed from the east coast into Enna, then being Italic they were probably R1b.

Trapani being mostly J2 makes sense, and it is probably closer to Lebanese J2 than Greek. The one that really surprises me is Syracuse.. they should, being mostly of Greek descent, be more E1b. I expect Ragusa being mostly I1 is due to sample size, since they should be mostly J2 or R1b. I also know, from a study, that they have about 10% of J1.

Interestingly E1b is not the majority in any of the provinces, but it is the most common haplogroup in Greece. This might be due to that a large Neolithic wave of migration from the Levant hit both Sicily and Crete, both high in J2, and missed mainland Greece.

Palermitan E1b1b is probably due to Greeks from the Byzantine years, and Palermitan J2 is probably also Levantine and not Greek.

R1a being more common in eastern Sicily shows it is, also in my case, probably Greek.

[alfieb]

Yeah, Ragusa only had 2 I1's, so it's hardly like it's a true predominant HG at all, for example like R1b clearly is in Palermo. Sample size due to smaller population.

In the case of Syracuse being an outlier, perhaps it's due in part to it being colonized by Dorics rather than Ionics.

[Sikeliot]

If there is one thing clear it's that with a larger sample size, R1b wins out in Palermo and J2 in Catania and Messina, and probably also in Agrigento as well. Trapani may be almost evenly split between the two.

Do you think it's fair to assume a Levantine origin for the J2 in the west, versus a Greek origin for that in the east?

What do you think of my R1a now -- probably Greek or Norman? I once thought it could be Norman since R1a is present in Scandinavia, but if so you'd be seeing it in Palermo and it didn't occur there in this sample but rather it occurred twice in Messina.

[alfieb]

Oops. I fucked up. There's 3 R1a's in Palermo, including one in the formerly named Castelnormanno.

[Sikeliot]

I expected R1a in Palermo to be Norman but what explains it in the east?

[alfieb]

Of the Eastern Sicilian R1a's on the map...

One of the R1a's in Messina is from Novara, whose entire population were imported from Northern Italy, and it is one of the few Gallo-Sicilian-speaking towns in Sicily.

Another is from Salina, in the Eoli Islands. I have no explanation for that.

Another is from Pachino, near Syracuse. No idea.

And the last one is in Caronia, in Messina, which is the home of a large Norman castle, indicating they had a significant presence in the area.

http://www.minniti.info/main/immagini/0605.jpg

[Sikeliot]

What explanation would you give for western Sicily's E1b and J2?

[alfieb]

J2: Phoenician or Greek
E1b1b: Carthaginian, or Greek

I doubt all of the settlement from Carthage was by Levantines. Levantines created the Carthaginian Empire, and it spoke Phoenician, but there had to be a significant number of Berbers involved.

The E1b could even be Jewish. I believe about half the Jews in Sicily converted to Catholicism, and the others were deported.

[Sikeliot]

Well some of the J2 could be Jewish as well. The other thing is, going by haplogroups it would be impossible to tell if say, a J2 individual got it from a Phoenician or a Jewish ancestor since the original Jews were neighbors with the Phoenicians and probably very genetically similar. The idea that the Jews came from Mesopotamia originally has not been proven or agreed with by archaeologists, but rather they developed as a people right in the Levant.

[wvwvw]

The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37%

In particular, the presence of a modal haplotype coming from the southern Balkan Peninsula and of its one-step derivates associated to E3b1a2-V13, supports a common genetic heritage between Sicilians and Greeks. The estimate of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor is about 2380 years before present, which broadly agrees with the archaeological traces of the Greek classic era….

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/08/ancient-greek-genetic-impact-on-sicilians/#.UWbODssayK1
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html

[alfieb]

I wish they would do that study again. Five years old, given the technology now-vs-then, you can only imagine that the numbers would be different.

[Sikeliot]

I'd like to see the subclades of J2 in the east versus the west.

[Dacul]

:rofl:
You are mixed with vikings,deal with that,Alfieb!
You also have some other germanic paternal lines.
I have already seen on FamilytreeDNA that I1 is above 5% on paternal lines,in whole Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

I1 and J1 are both about 5%.. being the "extremes".

[Kastrioti1443]

The map makes sense to me. I am surprised by Enna but then again is correct and the Sikels were pushed from the east coast into Enna, then being Italic they were probably R1b.

Trapani being mostly J2 makes sense, and it is probably closer to Lebanese J2 than Greek. The one that really surprises me is Syracuse.. they should, being mostly of Greek descent, be more E1b. I expect Ragusa being mostly I1 is due to sample size, since they should be mostly J2 or R1b. I also know, from a study, that they have about 10% of J1.


you have no idea what you are talking about.... there were no '' greeks'' in byzantine times, and specify what E1b1 group because it has like 10 subclades. R1a is totally slavic and it is found on sicily maybe because of Normans..... in average can you give us the percentage of the genetical groups found in sicilly?

Interestingly E1b is not the majority in any of the provinces, but it is the most common haplogroup in Greece. This might be due to that a large Neolithic wave of migration from the Levant hit both Sicily and Crete, both high in J2, and missed mainland Greece.

Palermitan E1b1b is probably due to Greeks from the Byzantine years, and Palermitan J2 is probably also Levantine and not Greek.

R1a being more common in eastern Sicily shows it is, also in my case, probably Greek.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks migrated to Sicily when it was under the Byzantine empire.

Why would R1a in eastern Sicily, where there is almost no I1 (the "Norman" haplogroup) be of Norman origins? if it was you'd see I1 there.

[Kastrioti1443]

Greeks migrated to Sicily when it was under the Byzantine empire.

Why would R1a in eastern Sicily, where there is almost no I1 (the "Norman" haplogroup) be of Norman origins? if it was you'd see I1 there.

there were no '' greeks'' my dear in byzantine times, but arvanites, vlachs, bulgarian and slavic tribes.... can you give us in average the percentage of haplogroups in Sicilly?

[Sikeliot]

Based on a sample of 236 people:

J2 - 25.84%
R1b - 24.58%
E1b1b - 18.21%
1 - 7.62%
G - 5.93%
R1a - 5.51%
T - 5.51%
J1 - 3.81%
Q - 2.54%
L - 0.42%

[alfieb]

:rofl:
You are mixed with vikings,deal with that,Alfieb!
You also have some other germanic paternal lines.
I have already seen on FamilytreeDNA that I1 is above 5% on paternal lines,in whole Sicily.
As I posted earlier today, the Northern Sicilian coast around Palermo is being marketed by the government as the "Norman Coast" now, so it's hardly that anyone is hiding or ashamed of that heritage. Sicilians embrace our history.

[Sikeliot]

As I posted earlier today, the Northern Sicilian coast around Palermo is being marketed by the government as the "Norman Coast" now, so it's hardly that anyone is hiding or ashamed of that heritage. Sicilians embrace our history.

No one is ashamed of it. I personally do not feel connected to it since my family is from Messina, though.

[Sikeliot]

Now sharing with a J1 from Catania and a G2a from Agrigento.

[wvwvw]

there were no '' greeks'' my dear in byzantine times, but arvanites, vlachs, bulgarian and slavic tribes.... can you give us in average the percentage of haplogroups in Sicilly?

There were no "Albanians" either, there weren't even "Italians" yet as Italy is a fairly recent creation. Albania gained its Independence 100 years after Greece did.

As for Arvanitophone Greeks they were Greeks with *strong* Greek conscience. Before talking about Greeks take a good look at your "national" hero Kastriotis that you have as your Avatar and who was Greek/Serbian.


http://youtu.be/QZpCs6aFt0o

Epirus has been inhabited by Greeks since Ancient times:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg/250px-Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg

Population-wise Greeks numbered millions, you always had a very small population.

Albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - "When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around25%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others."

So the first point to make is that the ancestors of the Albanians were very few in numbers only a century ago. Just 700.000 of which half of them were actually not Albanians. North of the Drin river there were 15% of South Slavs (more I1 and I2b) and South of the Drin river there were at least 25% Vlachs and Greeks. The Vlachs are probably very close to the Greeks and the rest of Southern Albanians genetically because they are Latinised indigenous Balkanian tribes who historically were either Greek or related to the Greeks.

[wvwvw]

there were no '' greeks'' my dear in byzantine times, but arvanites, vlachs, bulgarian and slavic tribes.... can you give us in average the percentage of haplogroups in Sicilly?

There were no "Albanians" either, there weren't even "Italians" yet as Italy is a fairly recent creation. Albania gained its Independence 100 years after Greece did.

As for Arvanitophone Greeks they were Greeks with *strong* Greek conscience. Before talking about Greeks take a good look at your "national" hero Kastriotis that you have as your Avatar and who was Greek/Serbian.


http://youtu.be/QZpCs6aFt0o

Epirus has been inhabited by Greeks since Ancient times:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg/250px-Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg

Population-wise Greeks numbered millions, you always had a very small population.

Albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - "When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around25%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others."

So the first point to make is that the ancestors of the Albanians were very few in numbers only a century ago. Just 700.000 of which half of them were actually not Albanians. North of the Drin river there were 15% of South Slavs (more I1 and I2b) and South of the Drin river there were at least 25% Vlachs and Greeks. The Vlachs are probably very close to the Greeks and the rest of Southern Albanians genetically because they are Latinised indigenous Balkanian tribes who historically were either Greek or related to the Greeks.

All Byzantine and medieval texts mention Albanians and Arvanites as two seperate people.

Maximus Mazaris in his "Journey to Hades" (1415 AD) when describing the population of Peloponessos, describes the Abanians and Arvanites as two totally different people.

Anna Komnene in her "Alexiad" (1148 AD) mentions the Arvanites from Arvanon (book 7) separatelyfrom the Albanians who she refers to as "so-called Abanians" in contrast to the LOCALS of Dalmatia (book 6).

Michael Attaliatis in his "Historia" (1080 AD) mentions the Albanians and Arvanites as two separate people. With the first revolting against the empire and the second being subjects of the Duke of Dirrachion.

[Libertas]

The map makes sense to me. I am surprised by Enna but then again is correct and the Sikels were pushed from the east coast into Enna, then being Italic they were probably R1b.

Trapani being mostly J2 makes sense, and it is probably closer to Lebanese J2 than Greek. The one that really surprises me is Syracuse.. they should, being mostly of Greek descent, be more E1b. I expect Ragusa being mostly I1 is due to sample size, since they should be mostly J2 or R1b. I also know, from a study, that they have about 10% of J1.

Interestingly E1b is not the majority in any of the provinces, but it is the most common haplogroup in Greece. This might be due to that a large Neolithic wave of migration from the Levant hit both Sicily and Crete, both high in J2, and missed mainland Greece.

Palermitan E1b1b is probably due to Greeks from the Byzantine years, and Palermitan J2 is probably also Levantine and not Greek.

R1a being more common in eastern Sicily shows it is, also in my case, probably Greek.

As far as Enna province and other parts of the Sicilian interior don't forget the medieval "Lombard" colonists (actually mostly Piedmontese and Ligurians) whose language is still spoken in some Sicilian villages and towns.

They may have reinforced R1b locally.

[Sikeliot]

Gallo-Italic you mean, right?

[alfieb]

Same thing.

[Sikeliot]

How many Sicilians are Gallo-Italics?

[alfieb]

It's estimated that over 60,000 speak the language, but in terms of DNA, obviously more than that have "Lombard" ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

Now it is interesting to me that they settled mainly inland and not on the coast, whereas almost all other settlers to the island have historically stayed on the coast.

[alfieb]

The Albanians didn't, either. In Sicily, and I believe Calabria also, their towns aren't on the shoreline.

The further inland and rural you get, the more likely your identity is to survive.

Before Italy annexed Sicily, there were villages that spoke Arbereshe near Messina, but they've since lost their identity and it is only five towns south of Palermo that are further away that are still Albanian.

[Sikeliot]

The Albanians didn't, either. In Sicily, and I believe Calabria also, their towns aren't on the shoreline.

The further inland and rural you get, the more likely your identity is to survive.

Before Italy annexed Sicily, there were villages that spoke Arbereshe near Messina, but they've since lost their identity and it is only five towns south of Palermo that are further away that are still Albanian.

Well we have an Arbereshe surname in my family but no one that we know of has spoken Albanian in the family. So we must be descended in part from one of those assimilated communities.

[alfieb]

Well we have an Arbereshe surname in my family but no one that we know of has spoken Albanian in the family. So we must be descended in part from one of those assimilated communities.

Sant’Angelo di Muxaro (in provincia di Agrigento), Bronte, Biancavilla e San Michele di Ganzaria (in provincia di Catania), Lipari (in provincia di Messina)

Formerly Arbereshe towns. One in particular would be of concern to you.

[Arbërori]

The Arbereshe were Albanians, period. You can shove those romantic, ''Albanophone'' theories up your buzzum! :P

Anyways, which settlements in Sicily are the most homogeneous Arbereshe ones?

[Sikeliot]

We have people with the surname Lipari in our family too. Which of course is part of Messina.

[alfieb]

The Arbereshe were Albanians, period. You can shove those romantic, ''Albanophone'' theories up your buzzum! :P

Anyways, which settlements in Sicily are the most homogeneous Arbereshe ones?

When they lose their language, they lose their identity, and they're more likely to mix with others.

The 'capital' so to speak is Piana degli Albanesi (Hora e Arbereshevet in Albanian). I don't know which have more or less outside influence. You'd definitely have to go to the Palermo area for that, though.

[Arbërori]

When they lose their language, they lose their identity, and they're more likely to mix with others.

The 'capital' so to speak is Piana degli Albanesi (Hora e Arbereshevet in Albanian). I don't know which have more or less outside influence. You'd definitely have to go to the Palermo area for that, though.

A friend of mine told me that many Arbereshe teens and children have visited Albania, which is encouraging. Anyways, I'm not against or condemn mixing with Sicilians, it's not like mixing with our eternal enemies, Turqelinjte!

Is Piana Degli Albanesi close to Palermo? I'll have some free time when I'll be Sicily, so I should definitely visit it. :coffee:

[alfieb]

It's about 30km.

[Arbërori]

It's about 30km.

Well damn! :P Luckily, I have plenty of time. :)

[alfieb]

In Sicily, 30km is nothing. It's 400km to drive from Palermo to Catania and back. :cry

[Arbërori]

In Sicily, 30km is nothing. It's 400km to drive from Palermo to Catania and back. :cry

Are there any famous Arbereshe in Sicily? Although Albanians are aware of them, not much is know... I think part of Gabriela Cilmi's family is from there (the Aussie singer). :)

[alfieb]

Alive today? I don't know. Historically, quite a few.

http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjergj_Nikoll%C3%AB_Brankati
http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimit%C3%ABr_Kamarda

Both of these fellows may have been related to me, at least if surname is an indicator.

[wvwvw]

When they lose their language, they lose their identity, and they're more likely to mix with others.

The 'capital' so to speak is Piana degli Albanesi (Hora e Arbereshevet in Albanian). I don't know which have more or less outside influence. You'd definitely have to go to the Palermo area for that, though.

Actually they didn't lose their language they were billingual and never considered themselves Albanians. There were also Greeks in Bulgaria and Thrace who were Bulgarian/billingual speakers who also had a very STRONG Greek conscience who adamantly fought against the Bulgarians procaliming their Hellenic identity, having had it previously subsumed by the Bulgarian church in the area for many centuries on and off.

Before Ottomans come to Europe many parts Albania were inhabited by Greeks. Those Greek villages for example Epidamnos were pure greek. After enough years those greeks came back in their country and made in Ipiro the Souliotoxoria(Souliotsvillages).They have nothing to do with albanians. They were pure Greeks.

[alfieb]

Actually they didn't lose their language they were billingual and never considered themselves Albanians.

The community has maintained many ethnic elements of Albanian culture like language, religious ritual, traditional costumes, music and folklore. The inhabitants are the descendants of Albanian families, including nobles and relatives of Skanderbeg, that settled in Southern Italy during the Ottoman Turkish conquest of the Balkans.

Something tells me that George Kastrioti's family didn't consider themselves Greek.

[Arbërori]

Actually they didn't lose their language they were billingual and never considered themselves Albanians. There were also Greeks in Bulgaria and Thrace who were Bulgarian/billingual speakers who also had a very STRONG Greek conscience who adamantly fought against the Bulgarians procaliming their Hellenic identity, having had it previously subsumed by the Bulgarian church in the area for many centuries on and off.

Go tell Arbereshe that they're Greek and they'll laugh you off. :lol: Keep those lunny theories for yourself. :coffee:

[wvwvw]

The community has maintained many ethnic elements of Albanian culture like language, religious ritual, traditional costumes, music and folklore. The inhabitants are the descendants of Albanian families, including nobles and relatives of Skanderbeg, that settled in Southern Italy during the Ottoman Turkish conquest of the Balkans.

Something tells me that George Kastrioti's family didn't consider themselves Greek.

I was referring to Greek Suliotes and Arvanites, who always considered themselves Greek.

As for Kastrioti, he took the name Skenderbey when he was Islamized by Sultan Murat 2nd & got his Turkish name that means Megas Alexandros. He married the Greek Androniki. His grandfather was Constantinos Hegemon of Hemathia & Kastoria [from where he got his surname Kastriotis] His father was Ioannis Hegemon of Kroya His mother was Serbian Voisava. His wife was the daughter of famous Greek Arianitos, Androniki Komnini. He never referred to himself as an Albanian but as a Hepirotan in many letters. In those letters he signed as Giorgios Kastriotis never as Gerg Kastriot. A name which you can find by thousands in Greece. He fought to free Hepirus. If today was alive he would try to free the rest of Hepirus occupied by Albanians. :D

Since ancient times no one ever denied the Greekness of Epirus.All kings were Greeks spoke Greek worshiped Greek gods & fought with the rest of Greeks under Macedonian command when Alexander the Great united all Greek States in order to take revenge from Persians that attacked Greece. Georgios Kastriotis in a letter to Prince Giovani of Taranto admits he is descendant of Macedonian Megas Alexandros the Greek and his cousin Phyrrus of Epirus.

-The Turk Biographer of Ali Pascha, Ahmet Mufit, writes
"in the year 1443 The Greek Hegemon Giorgos Kastriotis escaped from the ottoman army of Morava and returned to his Homeland Kroia in Greek Heprirus"
-The famous French historian Paganel in "Histoire de Scanderbey" reffers to him as Greek.
And the Danish military researcher Frantch De Zessen writes: "Giorgos Kastriotis is not Albanian because he was a son of Greek megistan Ioannis Castriotis and the Serb pincess Voisava"

Consequently, Danish Franz Nte Zesse'n, military correspondent of the newspaper "Le Temps" Paris, doubts the Albanian origin of Georgios Kastriotis, stressing in his lecture: "Question is, if Georgios Kastriotis is able to be considered Albanian, since he was the son of Greek Ioannis Kastriotis and of a Serbian princess ".

When he died his wife and his son Ioannis Castriotis went to Italy.But after a while Ioannis returned to Mani in Pelloponisos to fight against the turks. Albanians were on the Ottomans side.

Read what historians have to say:

Fatos Lubojia [Albanian historian] describes how elements of Skenderbeg’s biography were manipulated by the Albanian nationalist elites, he wrote:

"The central figure around whom the mythology of Albanian national romanticism was created is Skenderbeg! Aside that Skenderbeg was opportunistically selected as the main Albanian hero, Albanians cannot tell reality from fantasy, truth from myth.
These paradigms naturally create mechanisms in the Albanian mind that instinctively inhibit objective thought.
Skendeberg was a creation of Albanian Nationalists with a manipulated biography


Fatos Lubonja:
There was an attempt in some circles to exalt the Albanians’ Muslim identity on the grounds that those Albanians who became Muslim were the only true Albanians – arguing that the Islamic religion was the strongest factor in the survival of the Albanians...Some put forth the theory that Skenderbeg should not be the national hero because he betrayed the Turks by serving the Christian

According to Albanian scholar, Pirro Misha Skenderbeg, as Albanians know him or think they know him - is nothing more than a myth: a mixture of historical facts, truths & half-truths, inventions & folklore .The Albanian nationalist elites have turned Skenderbeg into the basis for the myth of ‘continuous resistance’ In fact there was no ‘continuous resistance’

The rise of Iskander by Benjamin Disraeli

2.1 "Iskander was the youngest son of the Prince of Epirus, who, with the other Grecian princes, had, at the commencement of the reign of Amurath the Second, in vain resisted the progress of the Turkish arms in Europe."

2.4 His Turkish education could never eradicate from his memory the consciousness that he was a Greek

Fatos Lubonja:
That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream.

Fatos Lubonja:
These are the basic myth that nourished ideology. Every Albanian educated in the Albanian schools after 1912, if asked about his country would recount these fundamental myths without being able to distinguish legend from history. This is the mythology of the generation, educated under Zog– which participated in the resistance against the Italian & German occupation…The champion of Christianity was a most appropriate hero because he was also the hero of the Christian Western World

[wvwvw]

The Official Arvanit League of Greece say they were part of the Hellenism and they do not consider themselves as Albanians at all. During the Ottoman rule many groups were billinguals and one from those were the Arvanites.

As about the language there is bibliography that anyone can buy it
More in http://www.arvasynel.gr/bibliografia.html

Regarding the Tosks, they probably come from epirotic-greek tribes which were albanized or anything. Of course modern Tosks belong to the albanian nation and as any other population which is assimilated culturally and genetically into another nation they are not greeks by origin (some albanian or some greek origin doesn't make you albanian or greek respectively). They were intermarried with the Albanians.

[The Lively Rock]

No J1e :D ?

[alfieb]

No J1e :D ?
The only ones who have displayed any subclade are a few J1c3ds.

[Sikeliot]

No J1e :D ?

I have a few J1e's on my facebook.

I also was accepted on 23andme by a Sicilian who has one parent from Enna and another from Caltanissetta, but they did not get their results yet. We'll see what they get.

[Sunphq]

I1 and J1 are both about 5%.. being the "extremes".

J1 might be Arab (Bedouin), but it also might be Neolithic - it's found in Crete also. So unless Saracens invaded there too, there's no reason to attribute an ethnic label to that clade.

J1 is higher in Portugal than it is in Sicily, Moors as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Europe

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

[Artek]

J1 might be Arab (Bedouin), but it also might be Neolithic, it's found in Crete also. So unless Saracens invaded there too, there's no reason to attribute an ethnic label to that clade.

J1 is higher in Portugal than it is in Sicily, Moors as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Europe

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

Looks like they have a classical drift from the South 7%-4,9%-1%. So it's probably Moor.

[alfieb]

That's the beauty of our island. Extremes aren't so unlikely.

For instance, in Sciacca (Agrigento), 18% of males have the rare haplogroup T according to Di Gaetano's 2009 study.

[Artek]

That's the beauty of our island. Extremes aren't so unlikely.

For instance, in Sciacca (Agrigento), 18% of males have the rare haplogroup T according to Di Gaetano's 2009 study.

Are such founder effects/pockets usual in some certain Sicilian vilages?

[alfieb]

Are such founder effects/pockets usual in some certain Sicilian vilages?

I don't have links handy, but I remember a study I read a few years ago that said that rural Sicilian towns seem to be as inbred as any part in Europe outside of Iceland. So, I would suppose so.

[Sunphq]

Crete was ruled by Saracens, so I guess J1 is their marker, or Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete

J1 does appear in places where there was an Arab presence - Iberia, Southern Italy and Crete. Well it can at least explain the elevated levels of it in those places.

[Kastrioti1443]

Actually they didn't lose their language they were billingual and never considered themselves Albanians. There were also Greeks in Bulgaria and Thrace who were Bulgarian/billingual speakers who also had a very STRONG Greek conscience who adamantly fought against the Bulgarians procaliming their Hellenic identity, having had it previously subsumed by the Bulgarian church in the area for many centuries on and off.

Before Ottomans come to Europe many parts Albania were inhabited by Greeks. Those Greek villages for example Epidamnos were pure greek. After enough years those greeks came back in their country and made in Ipiro the Souliotoxoria(Souliotsvillages).They have nothing to do with albanians. They were pure Greeks.


These greek wogs are ridiculous. Get something in mind. There was no '' greek'' ethnicity before 1831. In what is called today Greece used to live all non=sepaking greek tribes like arvanites, vlachs, bulgarians, venecian colons, russian, armenians, jew, turkish colons. You are all a mix of them. You were created as an ethnicity in 1831 by the great powers because of the romantism of ancient greece. 90/100 heroes of the orthodox revolution are albanians, the other vlachs, '' greek'' did not exist as an ethnic term. Suliots are more albanians than northern albanians themselfes.

[Kastrioti1443]

Based on a sample of 236 people:

J2 - 25.84%
R1b - 24.58%
E1b1b - 18.21%
1 - 7.62%
G - 5.93%
R1a - 5.51%
T - 5.51%
J1 - 3.81%
Q - 2.54%
L - 0.42%


1 is I1 correct??

Quiet european, those theories of non-european sicilians can get lost now

[Sikeliot]

1 is I1 correct??

Quiet european, those theories of non-european sicilians can get lost now

Yes.

Well -- J2, E1b1b, G, T, and J1 all represent "Neolithic" influence, and those when added up make over half of the haplogroups on that list. But if the question is about RECENT admixture, it's not recent but rather ancient.

[Damião de Góis]

J1 might be Arab (Bedouin), but it also might be Neolithic - it's found in Crete also. So unless Saracens invaded there too, there's no reason to attribute an ethnic label to that clade.

J1 is higher in Portugal than it is in Sicily, Moors as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Europe

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

Their own source says otherwise:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Kastrioti1443]

Yes.

Well -- J2, E1b1b, G, T, and J1 all represent "Neolithic" influence, and those when added up make over half of the haplogroups on that list. But if the question is about RECENT admixture, it's not recent but rather ancient.

What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MaMFo7K3Fc&list=PLFEFF337BB5F7A30E

[Sunphq]

Their own source says otherwise:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

3 is the average, look at G for Italy - it's 7. But in some places like Sardinia it's as high as 15%.

But still I think they need more samples. G is quite high for Sicily based on the ftdna project, yet one study measures it at 5.9%. I guess it also depends on founder effects, like what is mentioned above. And including people in samples from areas that aren't covered, like smaller towns and villages.

[Damião de Góis]

3 is the average, look at G for Italy - it's 7. But in some places like Sardinia it's as high as 15%.

But still I think they need more samples. G is quite high for Sicily based on the ftdna project, yet one study measures it at 5.9%. I guess it also depends on founder effects, like what is mentioned above. And including people in samples from areas that aren't covered, like smaller towns and villages.

In any case i think J1 wouldn't be related to moors. If anything it would be E-M81 instead. Remember the moors were mostly berber and not from further east, which is where J1 is highest.

[kabeiros]

But still I think they need more samples. G is quite high for Sicily based on the ftdna project, yet one study measures it at 5.9%. You shoud trust peer reviewed papers more than FTDNA. For example Greeks score around 20-25% of E1b1b in most scientific papers but only 10% in FTDNA.

[alfieb]

You shoud trust peer reviewed papers more than FTDNA. For example Greeks score around 20-25% of E1b1b in most scientific papers but only 10% in FTDNA.

Peer reviewed doesn't mean shit in terms of Sicily.

Most Sicilians don't live in cities, and most small towns haven't been visited at all. Every town more or less has its own unique genetic history.

[Sikeliot]

Y-dna T is most common in the Horn of Africa and the southern Arabian Peninsula, by the way. If it exists in Sicily it may be due to Arab conquest and carried by actual Arabians.

[alfieb]

Quite possibly.

It's also around 5% in parts of Scandinavia and around 10% in areas of Central/Southern Italy.

[Sikeliot]

Scandinavia? How the hell did it get there?

[alfieb]

You'd have to ask the people of Jutland and Gotland. :shrug:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Distribution_Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA_II.svg

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=ymap

8 Sicilians. Nice.

[Sikeliot]

So which invading group do you think brought it?

[alfieb]

I think the smart money says Arabs. In terms of Sicily, it's found mostly in the South and nonexistent in the Northeast. But, I think it's too soon to conclude.

There's a town in Northern Italy that has 22% T, according to that map. That's higher than anywhere in Sicily. That would more support a Gothic origin instead of an Arab one.

[Sunphq]

What do you think of this map of Bronze age cultures and Y-DNAs that are associated with them from Eupedia:

I would also include J1 for Old Europe and Minoan Crete.
Screengrab:
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh484/sunphq/hapmap_zpse94860b2.png

[Sikeliot]

I would think J1 is due to Arabs, but I think the Bell Beaker and Printed Cardium could be some of the R1b. J2 would have been Phoenician, pre-Greek Neolithic, and Greek.

[Virtuous]

How nice to see a prehistorical map of Europe, with no data of the Island that contains the oldest prehistoric structures in the world.

*Geni mode on*

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

*Geni mode off*

[Newsboy]

I would think J1 is due to Arabs, but I think the Bell Beaker and Printed Cardium could be some of the R1b. J2 would have been Phoenician, pre-Greek Neolithic, and Greek.

J1 is Arabian for certain. As for J2, I heard of it as being a Pheonician and Neolithic haplogroup. As for the Greek connection, I think you mean Ancient Greek. This haplogroup is present in areas the Greeks and Phoenicians colonized.

[Newsboy]

J1 is Arabian for certain. As for J2, I've heard of it as being a Pheonician and Neolithic haplogroup. As for the Greek connection, I think you mean Ancient Greek. This haplogroup is present in areas the Greeks and Phoenicians colonized.

whoops, I meant Phoenician not Pheonician (it's not a word). Sorry for the duplicate post.

[Sunphq]

I would think J1 is due to Arabs, but I think the Bell Beaker and Printed Cardium could be some of the R1b. J2 would have been Phoenician, pre-Greek Neolithic, and Greek.

J1 combined with E-M81 makes up quite a substantial part of South Portugal's Y-DNA distribution, relatively speaking - not to start a flame war, but does that also apply for Portugal too?

Or a double-standard, let me guess. Some J1 may be Arab, but also some may be Neolithic. It's found in mainland Greece and the Balkans. Do you know if the clades found in Sicily are the same as those in North Africa?

[Sikeliot]

Some updates on haplogroups based on 23andme;

y-dna:
Enna -- E1b1b1a
Messina -- G2a3b2, G2a5, R1b1b2a1a

mtdna:
Enna - H, U3a2
Messina - H14, HV, R0a, U2e, U4b1
Catania -- T2b
Palermo - H8

[Sicilianu101]

Interesting new update regarding my y-chromosome haplogroup (E-V12*)

I submitted my results to a moderator at haplozone and he made a phylogram with me and other participants from familytreedna. In there he has different clusters, described here (http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/cluster):

Since I have 37 snps currently on record, it is tentative, but based on my results so far I seem to be part of the G cluster (http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/cluster/75). All other current members of this cluster are Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Sudan.There are other clusters within E-V12 which seem to be Jewish or northwest-european dominated.

I am 188953 in blue.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=33251&d=1367805637

[Sikeliot]

I made pie charts based on this study.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/


Enna and Palermo are highly in contrast. Enna has the y-dna of a Middle Eastern population, whereas Palermo is heavily European.



Trapani:

http://i44.tinypic.com/71ojkk.jpg




Palermo:

http://i40.tinypic.com/23u76me.jpg




Agrigento:

http://i41.tinypic.com/308a9vl.jpg



Enna:

http://i40.tinypic.com/9qh91u.jpg





Ragusa:


http://i43.tinypic.com/2ywyf4l.jpg

[alfieb]

Wow.

That's a lot less R1b than I expected in Palermo (yet it's high in Trapani and Agrigento. Weird.) and a lot more R1a in Enna than one would anticipate.

[Sikeliot]

Wow.

That's a lot less R1b than I expected in Palermo (yet it's high in Trapani and Agrigento. Weird.) and a lot more R1a in Enna than one would anticipate.

The Palermo sample had 16 people in it but the Enna one had like 60.

We never hear much about Enna but the results are very interesting. Enna was roughly split between the Sikels and the Greeks.. but there isn't much "Italic" in their y-dna assuming Sikels were R1b. Either that or Sikels were a predominantly Neolithic group who had been Italicized by a wave of migration from the north, but not much genetic influence.

Ragusa has a lot of J2. And 10% J1!

I am impressed also by how high of I, Palermo has.

[alfieb]

Were they from around the province? If so, that is impressive.

If they're from the same locality, it just means that wherever the samples were taken had a large Norman component.

[Sikeliot]

Were they from around the province? If so, that is impressive.

If they're from the same locality, it just means that wherever the samples were taken had a large Norman component.

Caccamo, specifically.

The Enna sample is Piazza Armerina and Troina, and Trapani is a mixture of Mazzara del Vallo, Santa Ninfa, Alcamo, and Trapani.

I'd bet J2 and E1b1b in Trapani are Levantine and not Greek, btw. J2 in Ragusa and Enna has to be Greek.

[alfieb]

Yeah, I'd imagine Caccamo and most of the towns surrounding Palermo to have a large Germanic admixture. Moreso than the city itself. I think it had been a Norman fortress, as can be predicted.

Piazza Armerina is a Gallo-Sicilian/Lombard town. Keep that in mind.

[Sikeliot]

It must be. I would like to see their autosomal results to see what they'd get. Probably they'd cluster pretty north.

What's interesting is Piazza Armerina is supposedly Gallo-Italic, but their haplogroups were almost all J2 and E1b!

So here is what I want to ask you --

1) Who do you think gave Trapani, Palermo, and Agrigento their J2 and E1b? Greeks? Phoenicians?
2) Why would Ragusa have so much J1? What was the historical settlement there?
3) Who are people in Enna descended from? Should we take them to be mostly Greek like Messina and Catania?

[alfieb]

1) Who do you think gave Trapani, Palermo, and Agrigento their J2 and E1b? Greeks? Phoenicians?
I don't know if it's fair to paint all three with the same brush. Agrigento's Greek influence was much stronger than Trapani's and Palermo's. Trapani and Palermo are probably the least Greek provinces in Sicily, so for them I'd imagine it's largely Phoenician, but Agrigento can be either or both.


2) Why would Ragusa have so much J1? What was the historical settlement there?
Dorians.


3) Who are people in Enna descended from? Should we take them to be mostly Greek like Messina and Catania?
Unlikely. They're the hardest ones to figure out, really. Are they mostly Sicel? What level of Greek admixture do they really possess? Did the Sicans and the Sicels mix after the Greeks and Phoenicians pushed them further and further inland? Food for thought.

[Sikeliot]

But if Enna is mostly Sikel and Sicanian, with their haplogroups we have to wonder if the Sicels were Italic by blood or rather Italicized Neolithics.

Dorians wouldn't have had much J1 I don't think.

[Sikeliot]

It is possible, as well, that what this shows is that with exceptions, some towns do not have the haplogroups they "should" have based on their history.

For instance, Piazza Armerina has the haplogroups you'd expect of Cyprus, despite being a Gallo-Italic town, and the other Enna sample (Troina) mirrors Piazza Armerina. And neither has high R1b..

What I think it suggests is a strong pre-Greek Neolithic base for most of Sicily, overridden in the east by Greek genetics, by the west with some Norman and Phoenician, and that the three "native" groups of the island were probably all one group when they arrived but then as varying groups (Italics, Iberians, Anatolians) landed there, they brought more a culture than their genes and the native population divided. The original population would probably have been either from the Levant or the Armenia/Assyria area, and what I am then thinking was, some of them adopted Italic languages from the invading group from Italy and became the "Sikels", some of them were subject to an Iberian invasion and became "Sicanian", and some of them were near where the Anatolians landed and became "Elymians".

For me to believe Sikels and Sicanians were actual Italics and Iberians by blood, I'd have to see high R1b in Enna and Caltanissetta and I have not seen that. The person I am sharing with on 23andme from Enna is G2, which is another Caucasus haplogroup.

Is this possible? The genetics seem to suggest it. Especially since people who have been to Sicily that I talk to on 23andme say the inland is much darker and more "Armenian looking" whereas most lighter appearances are on the coast.

[alfieb]

It's been theorized by a minority that the original inhabitants of Sicily were non-IE and nameless, but were absorbed by the three "native" groups, themselves invaders, who were later displaced by the Greeks and Phoenicians, and absorbed just as they had done to the original inhabitants. I don't really care too much for prehistory so I don't follow too closely. But it's quite possible.

[Sikeliot]

Actually scratch my comment about the Enna person I share with -- he's E1b1b1a, but that also proves my point. Interestingly I share with a Greek from Lesbos with the same haplogroup.

I agree with that theory, because from what I have seen, people in Enna and Caltanissetta look like Cypriots and their genes seem mostly Neolithic. The guy I am sharing with who is half Enna, half Caltanissetta who I keep mentioning, clusters near Anatolian Greeks.

Although it is important to note, Caltanissetta was overrun by Carthaginians and Arabs, so they probably have some of that ancestry, just not a lot of Greek. Enna is the real mystery but I am thinking they could just be an isolated Neolithic remain.

According to the theory you mentioned, would the nameless non-IE people have been from West Asia, or somewhere else?

[alfieb]

Enna was Arab, too. They called it Qasr Ianni, which became Castrugiuvanni, which is still the Sicilian name for Enna.

[Sikeliot]

Enna was Arab, too. They called it Qasr Ianni, which became Castrugiuvanni, which is still the Sicilian name for Enna.

The name Enna comes from Greek though.. Hennaion which was shortened to Henna.

There actually was a Greek presence there too... Morgantina has been excavated and what they are finding is a mixture of Sikel and Greek art and pottery, which suggests the two cultures merged.

[alfieb]

The name Enna comes from Greek though.. Hennaion which was shortened to Henna.

There actually was a Greek presence there too... Morgantina has been excavated and what they are finding is a mixture of Sikel and Greek art and pottery, which suggests the two cultures merged.

Sure, but the Greek name was reimposed by Mussolini (in Italian). Sicilians don't call it Enna for a reason. It hasn't really been that for over 1,000 years.

[Sikeliot]

Also Caltanissetta is another Arabic derived name, from Qal‘at al-Nisā’.

[alfieb]

Also Caltanissetta is another Arabic derived name, from Qal‘at al-Nisā’.
Right, Which meant fortress of the women of something.

In Sicilian, we just call it Nissa.

[Sikeliot]

In Sicilian, we just call it Nissa.

Which is the Arabic plural for "women" still today.
:lol:

You know what -- I just thought of something interesting. Catania was the only portion of the east of Sicily that still had Sikel settlements into the Greek age, and Catania is the only region on 23andme where I have found people clustering with Cypriots. So if there is any link between these two things I think it would reaffirm Italicization.

I mean, the Greek language was brought to Greece by a wave from the north that simply Hellenized the existing population, rather than displace them. Why shouldn't we assume the same about the indigenous peoples of Sicily?

[alfieb]

That would fit with excavation which suggests a likely link between Greece and Sicily from over 1000BC, even though the Greeks didn't colonize Sicily until around 700BC, if memory serves.

[Sikeliot]

Here's what I will do. Of all the Sicilians I share with, they all fall within this range, meaning this shows you the northernmost, southernmost, westernmost, and easternmost of all of them. All of the rest fall between here, and I'll tell you where each is from.

The northernmost (clustering near mainland Greeks) and westernmost (drifting toward Iberia and Western Europe) are both Palermitans, big surprise. The one that is closest to Cypriots is from Enna. The easternmost clustering one, almost landing in Anatolia with the Pontic Greeks and Armenians and clustering near EliasAlucard, is from Messina.

Everyone else (the other Sicilians from all provinces, the islander and Anatolian Greeks) are the rest of the large cluster.



http://i43.tinypic.com/15n64xd.jpg


http://i44.tinypic.com/2zq4g48.jpg


http://i42.tinypic.com/atw40i.jpg


http://i44.tinypic.com/732ars.jpg

[alfieb]

I don't share with any Greeks.

The "southernmost" on my global sim map is a pure Northern Italian. All of my Sicilians are pulled further north than him, it seems.

[Sikeliot]

It's too bad we can't find anyone from rural Trapani to share with. I'd like to see if they end up near Cypriots too.

Show me where the Sicilians you share with cluster, and where they're from?

[alfieb]

They're almost all Western Sicilians, mostly from Palermo. Nearly all of them fall within either "France", "Austria", or (non-Northern) "Italy".

I don't know why Trapanese people aren't on 23andMe as much.

It's not like it's the poorest on the island - Enna is.

[Sikeliot]

So none of them fall in the orange cluster at the bottom -- the southern European cluster?

Take a picture of the Global Similarity plot in the same mode I have taken it in, so I can see where they fall relative to all of Europe.

[alfieb]

I was avoiding that. Lazy.

Alright.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/912/74512395.gif

Most fit within N.E. S.E. and E.E. One or two only in S, a few more only in N, none only in E.

[Sikeliot]

Are all of those people you're sharing with there, western Sicilians? Is the green dot you? if so you're just slightly north of me.

[Qassam]

How much Semitic admixture does Sicily have?

[Sikeliot]

How much Semitic admixture does Sicily have?

Impossible to know. From what it looks like, some parts of Sicily are very high in haplogroups also common to "Semites" such as Lebanese and Jews.

For the record, someone on ABF saw the chart of Sicilian haplogroups from that study I linked and said that Sicilian J2 is mostly the kind found in the Caucasus and Mesopotamia, not Greece.

[Peyrol]

How much Semitic admixture does Sicily have?

Probably around 5-10%, mostly phoenician and sepharditic.

[Sikeliot]

Probably around 5-10%, mostly phoenician and sepharditic.

The amount of Mesopotamian/Caucasus type ancestry is higher though.

[alfieb]

Everyone I share with is ethnic "Italian", and on my RF. One or two Northern, and the rest Western Sicilian. My grandmother doesn't appear on there because she cancelled her subscription and uses mine.

I never got to see her AC. A shame.

And no, I'm more Northern than the green dot. I'm not the northernmost one though lol.

A couple of them are mixed, but they're mixed Jewish-Sicilian. That should drag them south rather than north. I think one was 1/4 Polish or something like that, too. That doesn't explain why most of them fit in the E. E. cluster, though.

[Sikeliot]

Where did you find all these Sicilians clustering way up north? I haven't found any yet.

[alfieb]

Relative finder. I don't look for anyone. I just send our generic sharing requests to new matches and they either accept or they don't.

[Sikeliot]

That makes sense. You guys might all hold most of Sicily's Norman genes within your own family :p

[alfieb]

Does that mean I should be able to sue the government for the right to the "Costa Normanna"? Then again, the Palazzo dei Normanni is the home of parliament and I don't think they'll be willing to establish that precedent.

[Sikeliot]

A new study has these haplogroup frequencies, but it is a composite of Agrigento, Ragusa, and Catania it looks like.

Column VII:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s1600/haplogroups_italy.png


so that gives us:

E1a: 0.7%
E1b: 18.3%
G: 12%
I1: 1.4%
I2: 3.5%
J1: 6.4%
J2: 19%
R1a: 5.7%
R1b: 30.9%
T: 2.1%

I added these up myself.

[Ulla]

so that gives us:

E1a: 0.7% > African admixture in Europe
E1b: 18.3% > Greeks, Southern Europe, Neolithic farmers
G: 12% > Greeks, Neolithic farmers
I1: 1.4% >Normans
I2: 3.5% >Old Sardinians, Old Balkans
J1: 6.4% > Subclades?
J2: 19% > Greeks, Southern Europe, Neolithic farmers
R1a: 5.7% >Northern-Eastern Europe
R1b: 30.9% >Italics (Siculi?), Celts, Germans, Lombards (North Italy)...
T: 2.1% >? Phoenicians?

[alfieb]

Told you R1b is likely the top HG on the island.

[Sikeliot]

Told you R1b is likely the top HG on the island.

It is according to that study, but if you add up the "Neolithic" haplogroups, together they make the majority.