Gallop poll: 40% of Armenians want to leave their country - highest out of 12 post-Soviet countries

[Xyresic]

Gallup poll shows 40 percent of Armenians want to leave their country, authorities blame ‘lukewarm’ atmosphere

The Gallup International polling organization has presented the results of its survey covering 2010-2012, by which among the 12 post-Soviet countries citizens of Armenia showed the highest tendency for leaving their country.

To the question whether they would like to leave for permanent residence in a different country if they had a chance, or would prefer to live in their homeland, 40 percent of the interviewees in Armenia said they would like to leave. The lowest index was registered in Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan, with 11, 6 and 5 percent, respectively. Only 14 percent of the survey participants in Armenia’s neighbor Azerbaijan and Georgia said they would like to leave permanently.

Emigration tendencies have grown in Armenia over the recent years. By official statistics, 125,000 people left Armenia between 2010 and 2012 and never returned.

The Armenian president made a reference to the emigration issue a few weeks ago, citing the “lukewarm atmosphere” created by the media as its main reason.

“The core reason for emigration is this lukewarm atmosphere, people don’t see a light in the end of the tunnel, they have no hopes. Why, because for many years at least two TV channels, dozens of printed and electronic media have been talking about the very worst, have been only blackening the picture,” said Sargsyan.

Ethnographer Hranush Kharatyan says both the authorities and the opposition – by constantly giving hope and failing to “mobilize so that they can solve something” – are responsible for the population’s incessant outflow from the country.

Editor-in-chief the local daily newspaper Aravot Aram Abrahamyan points out another reason, apart from blaming the “unyielding” authorities “which have no adequate idea of the real state of things in the country and are deaf to people’s needs”.

“Let us admit that Armenia is not the poorest, the most authoritarian, the most corrupt and the most unjust country among the 12. Even the atmosphere here is not the most lukewarm. Then, what is the one of the possible reasons? Of course, it requires a serious research, but I’ll attempt a guess: one of our issues is that we, Armenians, easily get inspired and as easily fall into despair,” Abrahamyan wrote today in his editorial. “Now that Raffi Hovannisian and his supporters are saying this and that will happen on April 9, they seem to be ignoring the fact that if nothing happens (which is quite likely), then on April 10 or 11 nobody will rally with the same enthusiasm and it won’t be possible to “entertain” with drives like hunger strike.”

Ruling Republican party representative Hovhannes Sahakyan told ArmeniaNow that over the coming five years all the steps to be taken by the authorities “be it legislative initiatives, creation of jobs, solving this or that issue” will be aimed at overcoming all the negative processes in the country, including emigration.

http://armenianow.com/society/45058/armenia_population_emigration_gallup


I found the actual gallop poll:

Desire to Leave FSU Ranges Widely Across Countries
Half of those who want to migrate are searching for a better living standard

PRINCETON, NJ -- Fifteen percent of adults across 12 former Soviet Union (FSU) countries desire to migrate to another country permanently, according to Gallup data collected between 2010 and 2012. Desire varies within the region, from 40% in Armenia to 5% in Uzbekistan. Adults in Central Asian countries are generally less likely to want to migrate than those living in other areas within the larger region.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/1ru-1jroi0smiox6j7ak-w.gif

The rest is found here:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/161591/desire-leave-fsu-ranges-widely-across-countries.aspx

[Xyresic]

Armenia: Forty Percent of Gallup Poll Respondents Want Out

Armenia has had various firsts in its history -- from establishing Christianity as a state religion to setting up a winery -- but now, it has scored the lesser honor of being named in a Gallup poll as the post-Soviet country residents are most eager to leave.

Based on personal interviews with 41,072 people throughout 12 former Soviet republics between 2010 and 2012, the survey found that 40 percent of the Armenian respondents would like to move permanently to another country. (The number of respondents was not provided. Online data sets reflected numbers only for 2005 and 2006.)

Moldova, at 32 percent, followed in second place.

By comparison, Armenia's Caucasus neighbors, Georgia and Azerbaijan, were far less inclined to acknowledge their willingness to seek greener grass for good -- a mere 14 percent of the respondents in both countries. Respondents in Caucasus player Russia expressed the same level of wanderlust.

Armenia long has topped the charts for labor migration; most particularly to Russia, but also to Europe and the United States. After a brief economic rally, malaise set in for good with the 2009 international financial crisis. Despite various attempts by the government to kickstart the economy, unemployment, according to unofficial estimates, remains dizzily high, at well over 50 percent.

The Gallup survey reflects that trend. Fifty-two percent of the respondents polled throughout all 12 countries cited improving standards of living as their main reason for wanting to move abroad. At 13 percent of those interviewed, securing a better future for their children trailed far behind as a reason.

Armenia is well aware of its migration problem. It recently successfully pushed for the closure of a Russian migration program that offered applicants cash, citizenship, and accommodation to move for work to Russia, the destination of most Armenian migrants.

The easing of European Union visa rules, anticipated for 2013, though, could raise fresh concerns. The EU last month allotted 1 million euros (over $1.28 million) to Armenia for a migration program, which, among other aims, would further the "prevention of emigration," in the words of Armenian Deputy Labor and Social Affairs Minister Araik Petrosian.

Others, though, pointing at perceptions of rampant corruption within the country and scant signs of political change, believe that larger issues must first be addressed before more Armenians will agree that, east or west, home is best.

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/66784

[Onur]

There are ~70.000 of them in Turkey, leeching our money and sending to Armenia to be used for their pseudo-genocide recognition business.

I want them OUT from Turkey. We need a proper government to kick these illegals out from Turkey.

[Grizzly]

There are ~70.000 of them in Turkey, leeching our money and sending to Armenia to be used for their pseudo-genocide recognition business.

I want them OUT from Turkey. We need a proper government to kick these illegals out from Turkey.

Wouldn't expect anything less from Onur..

You are probably the most xenophobic poster on this board which is quite the accomplishment.

[Xyresic]

There are ~70.000 of them in Turkey, leeching our money and sending to Armenia to be used for their pseudo-genocide recognition business.

I want them OUT from Turkey. We need a proper government to kick these illegals out from Turkey.The problem is that Armenia hasn't been improving over the last few years. The number of Armenian illegal immigrants in Turkey is likely to continue to increase. I'll be honest I do feel a bit sorry for these Armenian illegals. But that isn't to say that I endorse the fact that they've illegally entered Turkey.

I thought this was interesting, this Armenian talks about the corruption and the situation in Armenia today:



Two realities of Armenia. Part 1

Since the beginning of the year more than three months have passed, but the economic situation in Armenia doesn’t reflect any positive tendencies. According to official data, the economic growth is 7.2%; However, the hopeful figures have nothing in common with reality and some official indexes show an increase of the migration level and reduction of foreign investments.

The government of the country, where the poverty level is more than 33% and the official unemployment rate is 16%, has taken no steps toward reduction of poverty.

Moreover, on February 1st amendments to the tax laws, which were adopted last December, began their operation. They caused indignation of dentists. According to the amendments, a dentist should pay a tax for “a chair” – from 60 to 80 thousand drams ($1=415 drams) depending on a hospital’s location. Previously dental hospitals paid social expenditures, income tax, profit tax of 20% in a year, which was about 15 thousand drams per month. Due to massive protests of dentists the government made corrections aimed at lightening of new laws. However, amendments touched on the other social group of the population. According to some sources, this change was made in favor of oligarchs who decided to open a big hospital.

Since the beginning of 2013 small trade facilities pay turnover tax of 3.5% instead of previous 20%. It seemed to be a positive change, but the rate of interest is calculated not from net income, but total turnover which is much bigger. According to experts, total turnover tax significantly improved tax burden for small business facilities.

Economists are also worried about the continuing reduction of investments in Armenia’s economy. According to official data, Russian and the USA investments into Armenia reduced by 27.5% in 2012.

According to economist Vaagan Khachatrian, “the data on 2012 shows that Armenia has no favorable conditions for investments. Three main factors are needed – peace, reasonable laws, and smart management. Unfortunately, Armenia is situated in a conflict zone, and the laws are used selectively. As for the government, the body which forms it gained no trust among the population. Moreover, the operating oligarchic system in the country doesn’t allow equal competition, which influences investments.”

The other negative phenomenon characterizing the current economy is still capital’s outflow which surpassed $500 million last year, according to some experts. Permanent huge dollar inflows for supporting dram’s course, which continues to fall, lead to reduction of Armenia’s external reserves. Last year Armenian external reserves were reduced by $170 million, in March 2013 – by $100 million.

“Capital outflow from Armenia and reduction of direct investments will be strong tendencies of the Armenian economy,” the former head of the Central Bank Bagrat Asatryan believes. According to the prime minister of Armenia Tigran Sarkisyan, the government is aware of capital outflow, but the government sees no alarming tendencies in this sphere.

http://vestnikkavkaza.net/analysis/economy/39278.html



Two realities of Armenia. Part 2

The government and the prime minister don’t see alarming tendencies in the growth of the country’s foreign debt, which is now $4 billion, or in the fact that the Armenian economy is living off this foreign debt and transfers from abroad of $1.8 billion. The government is calm about the growth of poverty. According to the Ministry of Finance, the poverty rate in 2012 was 33.1% of the whole population. For example, in 2008 the poverty rate was 27.6%.

The most interesting thing is that, despite the economic growth, the emigration rate is growing as well. According to official data, economic growth in 2011 was 4.6%, while the number of Armenian citizens who left the country forever was 43.8 thousand people. In very successful 2012, when economic growth was registered at a level of 7.2%, 42.8 thousand people left Armenia.

Recently, the international organization Gallup World published the results of a public opinion survey in the post-Soviet countries, devoted to migration issues. According to the survey, conducted in 12 countries among 41 thousand people, it appeared that in general 15% of the post-Soviet population would like to live in different states. Armenia is on top the list: 40% of residents of it would like to emigrate, and the rate is much higher than in other countries. 21% of Ukrainian citizens would like to leave it; 17% in Belarus, 14% in Georgia and Azerbaijan. The main reason for emigration is economic factors. According to surveys for internal use, which were conducted in Armenia by the responsible structure of the European Union in October-December 2012, if the EU border were to open a million people are ready to leave Armenia – not only migrants, but also non-working members of their families. Moreover, if in Russia Armenian migrants come to work, in Europe they are ready to settle forever.

Probably this circumstance played an important role in the fact that the EU postponed signing the Associative Agreement between Armenia and the EU which had to take place in early 2014.

At the initiative of the EU and United Nations Children's Fund, the program “Social Reaction to Labour Migration in Armenia” is being implemented. The goal of the program, which costs about 1 million euros, is to reduce the number of labour migrants and reduce the influence of social consequences of labour migration on families and communities in Armenia. The EU’s concern is quite understandable. However, the desire to leave Armenia is based on numerous socio-economic problems which must be solved by the country’s government rather than the EU’s program. If new jobs are created and new enterprises are opened, the poverty rate will reduce and the negative attitude among the population will change.

Today Armenia has two realities: the majority of the population, who are dissatisfied with the socio-economic situation, and official data, which states about successes in the economy. The government resembles members of the Politburo of the CPSU from an old Soviet joke. When a train of the future in which Brezhnev and his team are travelling suddenly stops because there is no rail-track ahead, Brezhnev answers a question about what they are going to do, saying: “We should pretend that the train is moving and wave from windows.”

http://vestnikkavkaza.net/analysis/economy/39334.html

[The Lawspeaker]

Close the borders and arm the Royal Marechaussee: give them plenty of scherpe piepers.

[Musso]

Close the borders and arm the Royal Marechaussee: give them plenty of scherpe piepers.

borders are already closed.

[The Lawspeaker]

borders are already closed.
Not closed enough.

[adsız]

There are ~70.000 of them in Turkey, leeching our money and sending to Armenia to be used for their pseudo-genocide recognition business.

I want them OUT from Turkey. We need a proper government to kick these illegals out from Turkey.

I pointed out a smilar thing under another thread .

Turkish government admitted that nearly 100.000 ermenians are in Turkey illegally working. They always make false propaganda : Bad Turks raped our girls, committed to massacre , but still keep coming.
,
And we embrace them closing our eyes as if we are Jesus, Let them make money in Turkey to buy weapons to kill our Azerbaijani brothers.

I agree on that all illegals should be deported to ermenia.

[adsız]

Not closed enough.

Right.

They come via 3rd countries.

[The Lawspeaker]

So this is what we should do here in Europe:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/israel/fence4.jpg

http://www.instablogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/israel_wall_tower_2_ufnlj_3868_V6mAm_19672.jpg

All the way from the North Pole down to the Turkish border (after deporting all the riff-raff). And we should build it three times wider and two times as high.

[Musso]

Not closed enough.

You do know that they enter Turkey via Georgia, so you would have to close borders with Georgia....:picard2:

[The Lawspeaker]

You do know that they enter Turkey via Georgia, so you would have to close borders with Georgia....:picard2:
Maybe you should get to know European geography. I said building a wall from the North Pole down to the Turkish border. That means Greece.

[baraSYR]

Many in Syria through..

[Peyrol]

There are ~70.000 of them in Turkey, leeching our money and sending to Armenia to be used for their pseudo-genocide recognition business.

I want them OUT from Turkey. We need a proper government to kick these illegals out from Turkey.


Just change ''70,000'' with ''4 millions'' and ''Turkey'' with ''Germany'', and yes, i would agree with you.

[Musso]

Maybe you should get to know European geography. I said building a wall from the North Pole down to the Turkish border. That means Greece.

and the point is??.....

[Hoca]

I don't think we need to deport them although they are illegals. Most are fine people and only come to work but the border still should be closed down until Azerbaijan finish its business with Armenia. One improvement we can implement: we should block all money transfers from Turkey to Armenia out of solidarity for Azerbaijan. If they illegally come to Turkey to work and earn money, they should spend it in Turkey.

[The Lawspeaker]

and the point is??.....
That there will be no way in. Not welcome. We're full.

[RussiaPrussia]

just shows that armenians are a failed ethnicity without russians and other people they can make to do their work. Jews, armenians and hindus are only successful if they can play out other ethnicities.

But in their own countries india, israel and armenia they are poor.

[Musso]

That there will be no way in. Not welcome. We're full.

Much more efficient to fix naturalization laws.


just shows that armenians are a failed ethnicity without russians and other people they can make to do their work. Jews, armenians and hindus are only successful if they can play out other ethnicities.

But in their own countries india, israel and armenia they are poor.

Failed ethnicity? Take a look at our history and tell me how it's a "failed ethnicity"? lol

[Musso]

I don't think we need to deport them although they are illegals. Most are fine people and only come to work but the border still should be closed down until Azerbaijan finish its business with Armenia. One improvement we can implement: we should block all money transfers from Turkey to Armenia out of solidarity for Azerbaijan. If they illegally come to Turkey to work and earn money, they should spend it in Turkey.

Well you have many Armenian businessmen going back and forth from Turkey and Armenia, same with Turkish businessmen going back and forth from Armenia...you'd have to block that too.

[Onur]

Just change ''70,000'' with ''4 millions'' and ''Turkey'' with ''Germany'', and yes, i would agree with you.
There are no illegal Turkish citizens in Germany. All of them are legally living in there. but all the 70.000 Armenians in Turkey are ILLEGAL MIGRANTS!



Well you have many Armenian businessmen going back and forth from Turkey and Armenia, same with Turkish businessmen going back and forth from Armenia...you'd have to block that too.
Wtf you talking about? Show me a single example of Turkish investment in Armenia. There is no such thing.

[The Lawspeaker]

Much more efficient to fix naturalization laws.

That will be step nr. 2. First we have to make sure that you can't come in.

[gregorius]

That will be step nr. 2. First we have to make sure that you can't come in.

Waarom probeer je constant op de man af te gaan? Er zijn amper armenen in Nederland en degenen die er zijn trappen geen rotzooi. Armeense migratie naar Europa is erg klein overigens meesten gaan naar Rusland of de VS.

[Musso]

Wtf you talking about? Show me a single example of Turkish investment in Armenia. There is no such thing.

I am talking about business relationships which make business contacts between the two sides:


The 4th Armenian-Turkish business conference has opened in Yerevan on Friday.

Arsen Ghazaryan, President of the Union of Manufacturers and Businessmen (Employers) of Armenia (UMB(E)A), told journalists that the union succeeded in establishing new contacts with Turkish businessmen and is trying to “circumvent the unofficial embargo.”

“We are trying to prove the mutual benefits of legalized trade and investment environment,” Ghazaryan said.

He noted that businessmen from eastern Anatolia (western Armenia) are participating in the business forum.

“Developing ties with their neighbors is of vital importance for them. We are happy that our partners go on following this principle in the hope that the Turkish authorities will one day come to realize their own economic interests,” Ghazaryan said.

He hopes that Turkey will one day express its willingness to establish good neighborly relations with Armenia without any preconditions.

Ghazaryan said that Turkish exports in Armenia’s market total 150-200 million USD against 10-20 million USD worth Armenian products in Turkey.

Kadri Salaz, President of the Van Young Businessmen Association, expressed hope that the development of Armenian-Turkish trade and economic ties despite closed borders will have its impact on foreign policy and relaxation in approaches.

“The present political situation does not allow Turkish businessmen to do anything. We will do our best to develop trade relations with our Armenian brothers,” he said.

“We want to organize trade relations with Armenia just as we do it with Western nations,” Salaz said.

“We do not think there is any difference between Armenians, Turks or Kurds. We will do our utmost for the authorities to start thinking of re-opening the borders after they see our good relations,” Sait Biner, a member of the Hayaniz Kurdish organization, said.

The 4th Armenian-Turkish business forum will last for two days.


he two-day forum was organized by Armenia’s leading business association and the Chamber of Commerce of Diarberkir, the largest city in eastern Turkey, as part of a project to improve Turkish-Armenian relations financed by the U.S. government’s Agency For International Development (USAID).

Most of its 50 or so Turkish participants represented businesses operating in Diarbekir and nearby regions located not far from the Turkish-Armenian border. Many of them called for the quick opening of the frontier, something which the Turkish government makes conditional on the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

“We have long been lobbying for the opening of the Turkish-Armenian border,” said Diadin Gezer, deputy chairman of the Diarbekir Chamber of Commerce. “Countries around the world do at least 60 percent of their trade with their neighbors.”

Gezer and other entrepreneurs agreed that Turkish-Armenian commercial ties can grow even in the absence of diplomatic relations and an open border between the two estranged nations. Firat Aslan, a chocolate manufacturer from Diarberkir, said this would only facilitate the eventual normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations.

“If Turkish-Armenian economic relations develop, then pressure on the two states will grow and they will open the border,” Aslan told RFE/RL’s Armenian service (Azatutyun.am).

A memorandum of understanding signed by Gezer and Arsen Ghazarian, chairman of the Armenian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, envisages that the two business groups will promote direct links between their members and greater commerce between the two neighboring states.


Armenia - Turkish and Armenian businesswomen at a conference in Yerevan, 22Nov2011.
With Ankara keeping the border closed since 1993, the bulk of Turkish-Armenian trade is carried out via Georgia. According to official Armenian statistics, it grew by almost 19 percent to $168.8 million in the first nine months of this year.

Turkish exports to Armenia accounted for over 99 percent of this figure because of Ankara’s unofficial ban on imports of goods from Armenia. Businesspeople say Armenian products are usually re-exported to the Turkish market through Georgia and other third countries.

Speaking at the Yerevan conference, Noyan Soyak, an Istanbul-based businessman affiliated with the Turkish-Armenian Business Council (TABC), estimated the annual volume of bilateral commerce at around $300 million. He said this figure can quickly be tripled.

Founded in the early 1990s, the TABC is the only organization uniting Turkish and Armenian businesspeople. Its Turkish members also favor an unconditional normalization of Turkish-Armenian ties.

Participants spent the first day of the conference introducing their firms and promoting their products. “We have come here to invite Armenian entrepreneurs to Turkey and foster exchange of Armenian and Turkish goods,” said Gafur Turkay, an ethnic Armenian executive of a Diarbekir-based insurance firm.

Some Armenian manufacturers are already involved in such exchange. Samvel Gasparian said his Artsocks textile company has imported Turkish raw materials for the past three years. “Since this sector is very developed in Turkey … we should look into their experience and find partners there,” he told RFE/RL’s Armenian service.

Another businessman, Gagik Bostanjian, said his Lux shoe company mainly imports shoe components from Russia and would like to find cheaper suppliers in Turkey.

As part of the USAID project implemented by several Armenian non-governmental organizations, the business forum will be followed by a Turkish-Armenian trade exhibition in Armenia’s second largest city of Gyumri. About 80 Armenian and Turkish firms will display their products there on Thursday.

http://www.tabdc.org/


Information and Assistance Center for Armenian and Turkish Entrepreneurs (ICE) assists Armenian and Turkish entrepreneurs in starting and developing their business in Armenia and in Turkey.

ICE works to increase awareness of Armenian and Turkish businessmen about potential opportunities in particular industries.

ICE makes available listings of interested companies from both countries with their products, services and contacts.

ICE helps create trading and manufacturing joint ventures, subsidiaries, enterprises in sectors that have potential for cooperation and development.

ICE generates information on economic sectors and companies in specific geographic regions and their potential.

ICE promotes environment of trust in business and boosts trade and investments toward a successful common future.

Establishment of ICE is supported by the USAID-funded Support to Armenia-Turkey Rapprochement Project (SATR) implemented by Eurasia Partnership Foundation, Union of Manufacturers and Businessmen of Armenia, Yerevan Press Club, and International Center for Human Development.


http://www.armturkbusiness.org/

http://armturkdialogue.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/arm_turk_business_study_2011_report_eng.pdf

[Musso]

That will be step nr. 2. First we have to make sure that you can't come in.

Well obviously such a "fence" is out of the question, so how do you make sure they don't come in?

[The Lawspeaker]

Waarom probeer je constant op de man af te gaan? Er zijn amper armenen in Nederland en degenen die er zijn trappen geen rotzooi. Armeense immigratie naar Europa is erg klein overigens meesten gaan naar Rusland of de VS.
Het is niet per se tegen de Armeniërs gericht maar eerder tegen al die immigranten uit al die bananenrepublieken die hier steun komen trekken en hier de crimineel uit komen hangen. Zoals de Polen, de Roemenen, de Joegoslaven, de Turken, de Marokkanen, de Somaliërs. We zitten al hartstikke vol. 17 miljoen mensen. Moet je er echt nog een paar bij hebben ? Ik weet dat het in Groningen nog lekker rustig is maar dat is hier in de Randstad wel anders..

[The Lawspeaker]

Well obviously such a "fence" is out of the question, so how do you make sure they don't come in?
Just by having that fence built. Israel built once.. and so can we.

[Musso]

Just by having that fence built. Israel built once.. and so can we.

Israel's border is nothing compared to the fence you wanted to build...from the North pole? Is that even financially possible? Plus you would probably have to hire those illegals that you want to keep out in order to keep such a project remotely affordable.

[gregorius]

Het is niet per se tegen de Armeniërs gericht maar eerder tegen al die immigranten uit al die bananenrepublieken die hier steun komen trekken en hier de crimineel uit komen hangen. Zoals de Polen, de Roemenen, de Joegoslaven, de Turken, de Marokkanen, de Somaliërs. We zitten al hartstikke vol. 17 miljoen mensen. Moet je er echt nog een paar bij hebben ? Ik weet dat het in Groningen nog lekker rustig is maar dat is hier in de Randstad wel anders..

Ik ben het met je eens, maar er wonen amper 10 000 armenen in Nederland waarvan een overgrote deel geen rotzooi trapt. Dat is anders met de andere bevolkingsgroepen die jij opnoemt in dezelfde rijtje met de Armeniërs. In deze draad doel jij wel specifiek op de Armeniërs wat gewoon nergens voor nodig is.

[The Lawspeaker]

Israel's border is nothing compared to the fence you wanted to build...from the North pole? Is that even financially possible? Plus you would probably have to hire those illegals that you want to keep out in order to keep such a project remotely affordable.
We need all those illegals for that and it's certainly possible to build a wall from Finland all the way to Greece. If the Chinese could build a wall over mountains, through icy places and through deserts then we can certainly build one today. And we don't need illegal immigrants for that. We have enough unemployed as it is.

[Musso]

We need all those illegals for that and it's certainly possible to build a wall from Finland all the way to Greece. If the Chinese could build a wall over mountains, through icy places and through deserts then we can certainly build one today. And we don't need illegal immigrants for that. We have enough unemployed as it is.

And the finance stricken EU countries will be ready to finance it?

[The Lawspeaker]

Ik ben het met je eens, maar er wonen amper 10 000 armenen in Nederland waarvan een overgrote deel geen rotzooi trapt. Dat is anders met de andere bevolkingsgroepen die jij opnoemt in dezelfde rijtje met de Armeniërs.
We hebben hier wel eens Armeniërs op het forum gehad. Die hadden er een handje van om ons te vertellen hoe we ons eigen huis moeten runnen door steeds maar over 1915 te gaan zeuren en ons er maar van proberen te overtuigen dat we toch echt het ontkennen of het doen van onafhankelijk onderzoek naar die genocide strafbaar moeten maken.. puur om de Turken te pesten. Dus ze zijn ook nog eens actief met lobbyen en dus een gevaar voor de democratie. Elke buitenlandse invloed op het democratisch bestel is een gevaar. Alsof de Joodse, Turkse en Amerikaanse lobbygroepen al niet erg genoeg zijn.

[The Lawspeaker]

And the finance stricken EU countries will be ready to finance it?
What finance stricken EU countries ? You mean the finance stricken EU banks that we have to bankrupt ourselves in order to save their arses in order to please our political masters. No.. we can let those banks fall.

[gregorius]

We hebben hier wel eens Armeniërs op het forum gehad. Die hadden er een handje van om ons te vertellen hoe we ons eigen huis moeten runnen door steeds maar over 1915 te gaan zeuren en ons er maar van proberen te overtuigen dat we toch echt het ontkennen of het doen van onafhankelijk onderzoek naar die genocide strafbaar moeten maken.. puur om de Turken te pesten. Dus ze zijn ook nog eens actief met lobbyen en dus een gevaar voor de democratie. Elke buitenlandse invloed op het democratisch bestel is een gevaar. Alsof de Joodse, Turkse en Amerikaanse lobbygroepen al niet erg genoeg zijn.

De Turken doen er alles aan om de Armeniers hier te pesten dus dat betekent helemaal niets. De Armeniers hier zijn niet representatief voor de Armeniers in Nederland noch heb ik ooit gehoord dat er ook maar een teken was van het het strafbaar stellen van ontkennen van 1915 hier in Nederland, Het zou natuurlijk wel kunnen gebeuren op het moment dat de Armeniers een sterkere positie in Nederland hebben zoals in Frankrijk. Maar vooralsnog is de Turkse invloed velen malen groter dus is het erg hypocriet om te zeggen dat de Armeniers een gevaar zijn voor de democratie in Nederland.

Wij zeiken nooit over Moskees, Homosexualiteit of Racisme in Nederland wat hun natuurlijk wel doen.
Ik laat het hierbij, Mijn enige punt was dat je erg op de man speelt.

[The Lawspeaker]

Het zou natuurlijk wel kunnen gebeuren op het moment dat de Armeniers een sterkere positie in Nederland hebben zoals in Frankrijk. Maar vooralsnog is de Turkse invloed velen malen groter dus is het erg hypocriet om te zeggen dat de Armeniers een gevaar zijn voor de democratie in Nederland.
.
En daar zit nou net het probleem: het zou niet moeten mogen dat een buitenlandse groep invloed krijgt op de besluitvorming in een land. De Nederlandse politiek dient niet de belangen van het buitenland te dienen maar enkel die van Nederland en de Nederlanders zelf.

[gregorius]

En daar zit nou net het probleem: het zou niet moeten mogen dat een buitenlandse groep invloed krijgt op de besluitvorming in een land. De Nederlandse politiek dient niet de belangen van het buitenland te dienen maar enkel die van Nederland en de Nederlanders zelf.

Inderdaad, wat je nu dus wel hebt met de Turken. Overigens wil ik hiermee zeggen dat je kunt zien in Frankrijk dat de Armeense invloed groot is maar dat ze niks ''eisen'' zoals de Turken hier wel doen. Sarkozy zelf wou een wit voetje halen bij de Armenen daar die veel invloed hebben in Frankrijk. Het waren niet de Armenen die er alles aan deden om dit te bewerkstelligen. Heb jij ooit maar ook een heel klein beetje vernomen dat er mogelijke Armeense invloed was in Nederland?

[The Lawspeaker]

Inderdaad, wat je nu dus wel hebt met de Turken. Overigens wil ik hiermee zeggen dat je kunt zien in Frankrijk dat de Armeense invloed groot is maar dat ze niks ''eisen'' zoals de Turken hier wel doen. Sarkozy zelf wou een wit voetje halen bij de Armenen daar die veel invloed hebben in Frankrijk. Het waren niet de Armenen die er alles aan deden om dit te bewerkstelligen. Heb jij ooit maar ook een heel klein beetje vernomen dat er mogelijke Armeense invloed was in Nederland?
Er is wel een tijd geleden een discussie over de genocide van 1915 geweest maar verder hebben ze zich nog op de vlakte gehouden. En of de Turken,Joden, Amerikanen of Armeniërs invloed hebben is wat mij betreft gelijk. Al die invloedsgroepen zijn, indien ze proberen om de Nederlandse wetgeving, de Nederlandse binnenlandse politiek of de Nederlandse buitenlandse politiek (laat staan het staatsbestel) zijn ze een gevaar voor de democratie - en dus ook voor het land zelf.

Zoals je bij Turken kunt zien in Nederland en Duitsland, of bij de Joden hier in Nederland of in de Verenigde Staten, of bij de Armeniërs en Joden in Frankrijk zijn zulke invloeden dus wel degelijk daar en een aanslag op onze onafhankelijkheid.

[gregorius]

Er is wel een tijd geleden een discussie over de genocide van 1915 geweest maar verder hebben ze zich nog op de vlakte gehouden. En of de Turken,Joden, Amerikanen of Armeniërs invloed hebben is wat mij betreft gelijk. Al die invloedsgroepen zijn, indien ze proberen om de Nederlandse wetgeving, de Nederlandse binnenlandse politiek of de Nederlandse buitenlandse politiek (laat staan het staatsbestel) zijn ze een gevaar voor de democratie - en dus ook voor het land zelf.

Zoals je bij Turken kunt zien in Nederland en Duitsland, of bij de Joden hier in Nederland of in de Verenigde Staten, of bij de Armeniërs en Joden in Frankrijk zijn zulke invloeden dus wel degelijk daar en een aanslag op onze onafhankelijkheid.

Armenen in Frankrijk eisen helemaal niks zoals erdogan en gul dat hier wel meerdere keren deden ondanks dat ze wel degelijk invloed daar hebben. Ze vormen geen ''gevaar'' voor verandering van het binnenlandse politiek. Armeniers lobbyen alleen over de genocide zelf maar niet over het strafbaar stellen van het ontkennen.

[The Lawspeaker]

Armenen in Frankrijk eisen helemaal niks zoals erdogan en gul dat hier wel meerdere keren deden ondanks dat ze wel degelijk invloed daar hebben, Ze vormen geen ''gevaar'' voor verandering van het binnenlandse politiek. Armeniers lobbyen alleen over de genocide zelf maar niet over het strafbaar stellen van het ontkennen.
Zelfs dat is al een gevaar voor de democratie. Als de Fransen zelf iets met die genocide willen doen is dat hun zaak en daar hebben de Armeniërs vreemdelingen als ze zijn, eigenlijk niets mee te maken. En ja: het optreden van Gul en Erdogan mag op z'n zachtst gezegd schadelijk voor de Turks-Nederlandse diplomatieke betrekkingen en de Nederlandse democratie worden genoemd. Als Nederland tot iets geneigd zou moeten zijn is het het aanmoedigen van de remigratie en het innemen van Nederlandse paspoorten van zij die ook een tweede paspoort hebben. Te beginnen bij Turkse jongeren die in het Turkse leger hun dienstplicht vervullen want in principe zou dit misschien als een vorm van hoogverraad kunnen worden beschouwd.

[gregorius]

Zelfs dat is al een gevaar voor de democratie. Als de Fransen zelf iets met die genocide willen doen is dat hun zaak en daar hebben de Armeniërs vreemdelingen als ze zijn, eigenlijk niets mee te maken. En ja: het optreden van Gul en Erdogan mag op z'n zachtst gezegd schadelijk voor de Turks-Nederlandse diplomatieke betrekkingen en de Nederlandse democratie worden genoemd. Als Nederland tot iets geneigd zou moeten zijn is het het aanmoedigen van de remigratie en het innemen van Nederlandse paspoorten van zij die ook een tweede paspoort hebben. Te beginnen bij Turkse jongeren die in het Turkse leger hun dienstplicht vervullen want in principe zou dit misschien als een vorm van hoogverraad kunnen worden beschouwd.

Ik laat het Turkse deel aan mij voorbij gaan,

Zo werkt het politiek nou eenmaal, het accepteren van een genocide is een kaart die je gebruikt om een bepaalde groeperingen mee te schaden of te steunen. Het zijn de Fransen zelf die het accepteren omdat ze weten daarmee binnenlands maar ook buitenlands economische banden mee te kweken.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ik laat het Turkse deel aan mij voorbij gaan,
O.K.


Zo werkt het politiek nou eenmaal, het accepteren van een genocide is een kaart die je gebruikt om een bepaalde groeperingen mee te schaden of te steunen. Het zijn de Fransen zelf die het accepteren omdat ze weten daarmee binnenlands maar ook buitenlands economische banden mee te kweken.
Nee het zijn Franse politici die smeergeld.. err lobbygelden accepteren en daar de Armeense lobbyisten een paar politieke favours doen. Hoe sterk zijn de Franse handelsbanden met Armenië ? Nou niet echt (http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/france/export-import.html) belangrijk. Dat komt misschien ook wel omdat Armenië te arm is om iets uit Europa te importeren en zelf weinig tot niets van enig belang exporteert. Lobbyisme kun je daarom zien als een legale vorm van politieke corruptie.

[gregorius]

[QUOTE=gregor;1533644]Ik laat het Turkse deel aan mij voorbij gaan,


Nee het zijn Franse politici die smeergelden.. err lobbygelden accepteren en daar de Armeense lobbyisten een paar politieke favours doen.

Ook dat,

Maar wees eens eerlijk accepteren van een Genocide heeft in principe weinig te maken met het democratie van een land, zeker als het daadwerkelijk heeft plaatsgevonden. Nederland heeft het geaccepteerd aan democratie is er niks verandert.

Kortom: Armeense immigranten hebben amper invloed op de Nederlandse democratie, waar jij zo bang voor was.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ook dat,

Maar wees eens eerlijk accepteren van een Genocide heeft in principe weinig te maken met het democratie van een land, zeker als het daadwerkelijk heeft plaatsgevonden. Nederland heeft het geaccepteerd aan democratie is er niks verandert.
Wie zegt dat het na het uitoefenen van invloed door een Armeense lobbygroep (d.m.v smeergeld) is "geaccepteerd" ? We weten het niet wat er binnenskamers gebeurd en wat voor figuren er bij betrokken zijn geweest en daarom is lobbyisme zo gevaarlijk: omdat het niet transparant is.

En dat is nu net het probleem van lobbygroepen: ze dienen privébelangen of buitenlandse belangen en ze oefenen hun invloed op een niet-transparante manier uit. En dat is dus een gevaar voor de democratie.

[gregorius]

[QUOTE=gregor;1533665]
Wie zegt dat het na het uitoefenen van buitenlandse invloed (d.mv smeergeld) is "geaccepteerd" ?

Wie zegt dat het waar is? Het Genocidekaart is er om politiek iets te doen. Als Turkije zijn banden veslechterd met Amerika dan zou Amerika wel eens heel snel het genocidekaart kunnen gaan gebruiken zonder enige vorm van toenemende lobbyisme

[Musso]

In a democracy, citizens have a right to petition for issues. This is how a democracy works. And every ethnic group, including Turks/Azeris petitition their governments to pass their agenda.

[The Lawspeaker]

Wie zegt dat het waar is?
We weten het niet, gregor. En we zullen het ook nooit weten.

[The Lawspeaker]

In a democracy, citizens have a right to petition for issues. This is how a democracy works. And every ethnic group, including Turks/Azeris petitition their governments to pass their agenda.
I disagree. Dutch politics should serve Dutch interests only. And people with dual passports and dual loyalties should not be allowed to have a Dutch passport and thus the right to vote and I believe that other nations should do the same thing in order to protect their democracy. As a matter of fact: if I would move to Armenia, acquire citizenship and start lobbying for a Dutch cause (that might go at the expense of Armenian democracy or the economy or anything related to your country).. would you people not think that I had acquired that citizenship under false pretenses and I am little better than a spy ? I know the Armenians would and, frankly, I can't blame them.

[SKYNET]

we will keep the western world on top without any eastern lobby

[gregorius]

[QUOTE=gregor;1533674]
We weten het niet, gregor. En we zullen het ook nooit weten.
Dan kun je er ook niks over zeggen.

Sorry maar heeft de Christenunie smeergeld ontvangen van de Armeense lobby? Heeft dat ooit tot vermindering van democratie geleid in Nederland? Ik weet zeker dat een heel groot deel van de autochtone Nederlanders zeker vindt dat er wel degelijk een genocide heeft plaatsgevonden (Zie sites als NrcNext,Geenstijl etc).

Het Turkse lobbyisme is veel erger in dat opzicht velen malen groter in Nederland, Frankrijk en Duitsland maar toch keurige landen als Nederland en Duitsland hebben het toch als een Genocide bestempeld ondanks een veel grotere Turkse invloed.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry maar heeft de Christenunie smeergeld ontvangen van de Armeense lobby? Heeft dat ooit tot vermindering van democratie geleid in Nederland?
Dat zou best kunnen en we zullen het nooit zeker weten. En als er inderdaad sprake is van pressure door lobbygroepen (a.k.a een smeergeldaffaire) dan is de Nederlandse democratie inderdaad beschadigd.



Ik weet zeker dat een heel groot deel van de autochtone Nederlanders zeker vindt dat er wel degelijk een genocide heeft plaatsgevonden (Zie sites als NrcNext,Geenstijl etc).

Nog geen tien jaar geleden had niemand in Nederland ooit iets over de Armeense genocide gehoord. Er is de afgelopen paar jaar natuurlijk nogal wat over geschreven. Het zal wel toeval zijn. ;)



Het Turkse lobbyisme is veel erger in dat opzicht velen malen groter in Nederland, Frankrijk en Duitsland maar toch keurige landen als Nederland en Duitsland hebben het toch als een Genocide bestempeld ondanks een veel grotere Turkse invloed.
Of het Turkse of Armeense lobbygroep is die actief is maakt mij op zich niet veel uit. Het dient allebei verboden te zijn. En we weten niet onder welke omstandigheden die erkenning heeft plaatsgevonden. Let vooral op de laatste zin: we weten niet onder welke omstandigheden die erkenning heeft plaatsgevonden dus echt transparant is het niet.. en derhalve dus al gevaarlijk.

[Musso]

I disagree. Dutch politics should serve Dutch interests only. And people with dual passports and dual loyalties should not be allowed to have a Dutch passport and thus the right to vote and I believe that other nations should do the same thing in order to protect their democracy. As a matter of fact: if I would move to Armenia, acquire citizenship and start lobbying for a Dutch cause (that might go at the expense of Armenian democracy or the economy or anything related to your country).. would you people not think that I had acquired that citizenship under false pretenses and I am little better than a spy ? I know the Armenians would.

Yes but politicians are politicians. In the end they will want to cater to their constitutents because Holland is a democracy, and if you have minorities, that will be the reality. Minorities will petition for their rights, culture, etc. In every normal democracy this happens. This is what comes with democracy and a civil society. In Armenia the Yezdi community lobbies for their ethnic rights, recognition of their culture, etc. I look at that as normal. They are law abiding citizens, they don't act against our interests, and so I have no problem. They can petition for their minority rights like normal citizens of the country.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes but politicians are politicians. In the end they will want to cater to their constitutents because Holland is a democracy, and if you have minorities, that will be the reality. Minorities will petition for their rights, culture, etc. In every normal democracy this happens. This is what comes with democracy and a civil society. In Armenia the Yezdi community lobbies for their ethnic rights, recognition of their culture, etc. I look at that as normal. They are law abiding citizens, they don't act against our interests, and so I have no problem. They can petition for their minority rights like normal citizens of the country.
I don't think you understand the reality of it because you also avoided my question. The fact is that is that this country should be ran exclusively for the benefit of it's native inhabitants. We have done enough for the world as it is.

Let me give you another question.. returning to the question I have asked you before. Suppose that my country would have had good relation with Azerbaijan and in quid pro quo I would lobby and bribe your officials (still supposedly being an Armenian citizen) to do something which would harm your country yet benefit your enemy. What would you feel then ?

Exactly. And this is why lobbying is so dangerous that it should be banned outright.

[Musso]

I don't think you understand the reality of it because you also avoided my question. The fact is that is that this country should be ran exclusively for the benefit of it's native inhabitants. We have done enough for the world as it is.

Let me give you another question.. returning to the question I have asked you before. Suppose that my country would have had good relation with Azerbaijan and in quid pro quo I would lobby and bribe your officials (still supposedly being an Armenian citizen) to do something which would harm your country yet benefit your enemy. What would you feel then ?

Exactly. And this is why lobbying is so dangerous that it should be banned outright.


Well I agree. Any country's priority should be it's native's interests. Hence, the priority of the Dutch Government should be the Dutch people, but I highly doubt that as of today their priority is not the Dutch people. Legally, of course, Dutch people = Dutch citizens. I believe in a centre-right form of governance, where there is ample economic and political freedom, coupled with an emphasis on national values and national identity, and strong governance.

As to scenario, yeah obviously that would be bad. But such a bribe would have to be rather great in order to force a politician to act against his own country and aid the enemy. The fact of the matter is though special interests rule all governments. Let it me oil companies, organized ethnic groups, defence companies, foreign lobby groups, etc. The problem you talk about is universal in all governments, and it's not just about some Armenians lobby their government for Genocide recognition.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well I agree. Any country's priority should be it's native's interests. Hence, the priority of the Dutch Government should be the Dutch people, but I highly doubt that as of today their priority is not the Dutch people. Legally, of course, Dutch people = Dutch citizens. I believe in a centre-right form of governance, where there is ample economic and political freedom, coupled with an emphasis on national values and national identity, and strong governance.

As to scenario, yeah obviously that would be bad. But such a bribe would have to be rather great in order to force a politician to act against his own country and aid the enemy. The fact of the matter is though special interests rule all governments. Let it me oil companies, organized ethnic groups, defence companies, foreign lobby groups, etc. The problem you talk about is universal in all governments, and it's not just about some Armenians lobby their government for Genocide recognition.

But I showed you the dangers of lobbying and if one thing (genocide recognition) is possible (which may look relatively harmless) through (potential) bribery. What's next ? Where does it stop ?

[Musso]

But I showed you the dangers of lobbying and if one thing (genocide recognition) is possible (which may look relatively harmless) through (potential) bribery. What's next ? Where does it stop ?

The issue here is more simple. Politicians are like prostitutes. If you have politicians, you are going to have lobbying. Doesn't matter where or why. Unless there are some draconian laws against it, though I'm sure they will find ways around it. Money talks. Prostitutes and money go very well together. And the special interests will take advantage of that.

[The Lawspeaker]

The issue here is more simple. Politicians are like prostitutes. If you have politicians, you are going to have lobbying. Doesn't matter where or why. Unless there are some draconian laws against it, though I'm sure they will find ways around it. Money talks. Prostitutes and money go very well together. And the special interests will take advantage of that.
Then I prefer the draconian laws. How about accepting a bribe from a foreign lobbyist = high treason = life in prison ?

[Musso]

Then I prefer the draconian laws. How about accepting a bribe from a foreign lobbyist = high treason = life in prison ?

okay...and how about a politician accepting political donations from his constituents (citizens)? But the constituents are advocating some issue to that politician that they feel is important to them.

[The Lawspeaker]

okay...and how about a politician accepting political donations from his constituents (citizens)? But the constituents are advocating some issue to that politician that they feel is important to them.

The same. It's bribery.

[Xyresic]

There are no illegal Turkish citizens in Germany. All of them are legally living in there. but all the 70.000 Armenians in Turkey are ILLEGAL MIGRANTS!Exactly, Turks were invited to Germany and the ones who went had to actually apply - it wasn't as if they could just go they had to apply and in 1973 an 'Anwerbestopp' occurred which put a stop to the recruitment of foreign workers.


Wtf you talking about? Show me a single example of Turkish investment in Armenia. There is no such thing.There are Turkish products in Armenia, its probably stuff like food and clothes. Of course this is quite different from investment:

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/1661/armeniaimportandexport.png
from: http://repatarmenia.org/eng/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/InvestmentMap2012.pdf

Its quite interesting actually, according to the pie chart there are more imports from Turkey than from Iran in Armenia despite the closed borders between Turkey and Armenia and the supposed close relations between Armenia and Iran.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I'm not surprised Armenians want to leave because Turks have done everything they could to strangle the country to death.

[Arbërori]

This is very, very unfortunate, but when your country has been continuously attacked by the vile bastards, what can you do...

They practically broke the spirit of the Armenian nation, first with the destruction of Western Armenia & afterwards with the murder of one million Armenians! May you burn in hell!

[Onur]

I'm not surprised Armenians want to leave because Turks have done everything they could to strangle the country to death.
We are not even doing half of what we should really do.

We need to build more pressure upon them because they are getting away from closed borders by using Georgia. We have to break relations between Georgia and Armenia and make them hostile to each other. Also need to put more pressure to Russia to quit supporting them.

[poiuytrewq0987]

We are not even doing half of what we should really do.

We need to build more pressure upon them because they are getting away from closed borders by using Georgia. We have to break relations between Georgia and Armenia and make them hostile to each other. Also need to put more pressure to Russia to quit supporting them.

You're disgusting.

[Arbërori]

We are not even doing half of what we should really do.

We need to build more pressure upon them because they are getting away from closed borders by using Georgia. We have to break relations between Georgia and Armenia and make them hostile to each other. Also need to put more pressure to Russia to quit supporting them.

Russia will never choose Muslims over Armenians, so keep telling yourself that.

You're a pathetic, disgusting, fat person who should be executed in cold blood. Buh bye! :o

[Musso]

Armenia has a very large diaspora and this often drives the numbers of people that want to leave the country. When you have part of your family outside, the desire to go out is stronger. Armenia though is improving in many sectors, governance, education, economy, IT sector is booming (Intel opened office in Armenia and Microsoft also is mulling to open a center in Armenia), Armenia will become associate member of the EU later this year, and so forth. For a country that has two borders on its side closed, went through a war in the 90s and suffered a Genocide that obliterated a great portion of the nation, is landlocked, and doesn't have resources like oil/gas, we are doing rather well.

[Hoca]

Russia will never choose Muslims over Armenians, so keep telling yourself that.

You're a pathetic, disgusting, fat person who should be executed in cold blood. Buh bye! :o

They already do. Armenians are getting left in the cold by Russians. They are doing giant energy projects with Turks. IMHO Armenia will be sacrificed for the greater good. It will need to give back occupied Karabakh to the Azeri. This will also be better for Armenians since the borders would be opened and they could benefit from the economic rise of the neighborhood.

[Musso]

They already do. Armenians are getting left in the cold by Russians. They are doing giant energy projects with Turks. IMHO Armenia will be sacrificed for the greater good. It will need to give back occupied Karabakh to the Azeri. This will also be better for Armenians since the borders would be opened and they could benefit from the economic rise of the neighborhood.

What? Russians doing energy projects with Turks doesn't mean they are leaving us in the cold. Actually Russians are interested in keeping balance between Azerbaijan and Armenia, for this, they also sell Azerbaijan weapons (though at higher price). Armenia and Russia recently agreed to open military-industry cooperation in Armenia, which means producing/repairing weapons within borders of Armenia.