Is HG I1 the true marker for Scandinavian genes?

[alfieb]

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif
Kiev. Dublin. Palermo. What on Earth could they have in common?

They were the strongholds of North Germanic settlement in their respective regions.

Kiev, capital of Rurik's kingdom, has higher I1 than the rest of Ukraine. Ditto Novgorod having more than the rest of Russia.

The Pale of Dublin, the region in Ireland where the Normans settled and fenced themselves in from the Gaels, has a higher I1 rate than the rest of Ireland. The areas in Western Scotland that still speak a Celtic rather than Germanic language also have the lowest I1 rate in their country.

Palermo, home to the Norman nobility of the Kingdom of Sicily, has over 15% I1, while other "Greek" parts of the island have 0%.

Estonia, home to Danish and Swedish settlement, has higher I1 rates than their neighbors.

While R1a, R1b, N1c, etc. are not indicative of their presence, it seems as though that wherever the Norse went, they brought I1 with them.

[Graham]

The Gaelic Speaking areas, of Western Scotland. Are Historically closer to the Norse, than many other parts of the nation. We also got a good amount of R1a1 from them.

I1's the most common marker on the male lineage, for the Scandinavians.

[alfieb]

The Gaelic Speaking areas, of Western Scotland. Are Historically closer to the Norse, than many other parts of the nation. We also got a good amount of R1a1 from them.

It's I1's the most common marker on the male lineage.

I misspoke. The Outer Hebrides, Shetland and Orkney (the latter two are quite Nordic and have Nordic flags) have high I1, but the Inner Hebrides do not.

[Virtuous]

What about the 12% in Malta? We also have our share of Danish Norman genes.

[Damião de Góis]

Denmark seems to be mostly R1b. Sweden is the only country with a clear I1 majority.

http://www.julepe.org/GenographicProject/Y_MAP_arrow.gif

[Dacul]

The map is not accurate.
There are more branches of I1.
Go read some more,you can find information about I1 branches on inet.

[alfieb]

The map is not accurate.
There are more branches of I1.
Go read some more,you can find information about I1 branches on inet.

But if that is true but they are not the same as the subclade shown on the map, then it is a matter of semantics.

[Dacul]

But if that is true but they are not the same as the subclade shown on the map, then it is a matter of semantics.

The map is wrong,is not accurate.
If I remember right,in South Italy,some area from there ,is about 5% I1 on paternal lines.

[Graham]

Denmark seems to be mostly R1b. Sweden is the only country with a clear I1 majority.

Denmark has plenty of R1b-U106. With a Frisian-Saxon link to it's South.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

[alfieb]

Denmark has plenty of R1b-U106. With a Frisian-Saxon link to it's South.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

And those maps line up somewhat nicely, no?

Nonexistent in Wales, lowest in Hebrides/Northern Scotland, highest in Ireland is in the Dublin area, only found in Palermo area in Sicily, etc.

[Magnus Maximus]

It seems to me that a long time ago. The Germanics moved into from Sca from Northern Germany, displacing the Is. It also seems that along the coasts there are more Rs while I is the interior of the country.

It also seems that Denmark being the homeland of the Scandanavians culturally sharing the Jutland with the Saxons brought Germanic culture and a ruling class to Norway and Sweden. Then later the tribes reseeded Europe from the North

[Magnus Maximus]

Even if it's the highest frequency in Sweden, do you guys think it originated somewhere else? Perhaps outside Scandinavia? (I'm not talking about too far back when I split from J)
I guess the emergance of its position has something to do with the Ice Age.

I think they were the Orginal Euro settlers, but not Nordic or Germanic. As the Ice agre receded the proto germans moved in esp along the costs that is why There is more R1 around the coasts. The Is are more inland it seems. Than later the German tribes that moved to Sca moved back into the mainland. The would have mixed with some of the Is bringing it with them

Just my thoughts

[alfieb]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Dalriada.jpg/200px-Dalriada.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Dalriada.png

The only region in Scotland that was actually inhabited by Irish people (Gaels) - Dal Riata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dal_Riata)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

coincidence?

They are the real Scots (as in Scottorum/Scotia, the Latin term for Gaels). The rest were Gaelified.

[Sunphq]

I1 men have also been found in Patti, Sicily (Messina), which coincidentally was a Norman-founded town.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily/default.aspx?section=ymap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patti,_Sicily

Also I2b, which I believe is another clade found primarily in North Germans/Danes, is found in Sicily.

[alfieb]

Also I2b, which I believe is another clade found primarily in North Germans/Danes, is found in Sicily.
Yeah, I2b1 peaks in Northern Germany and Denmark.

In Sicily, at least if Sicily Project is an indicator, I2b1 peaks in the area where Palermo, Agrigento, and Caltanissetta meet, although they have one guy from Catania as well.

I1 is mostly found (on Sicily Project) in Palermo, Agrigento, and Trapani (with the two Patti people in Messina being likely outliers). One of the I1's has a rare surname that is found in my Palermitan family.

[Jackson]

Even if it's the highest frequency in Sweden, do you guys think it originated somewhere else? Perhaps outside Scandinavia? (I'm not talking about too far back when I split from J)
I guess the emergance of its position has something to do with the Ice Age.

Apparent IJ was found in northern Iran, so yes it is ultimately West Asian, like Europeans in general.

[Jackson]

So did the Welsh women(+ Irish & Northwest Scots to some extent) not mix at all with the male Saxons?
Welsh, western Irish and northern Scots being mainly of other R1b subclade(more native to British isles).

That map is somewhat inaccurate, there is R1b-U106 in Wales, and it reaches it's peak in areas of Wales that have had heavy English and Flemish immigration (like Pembrokeshire and parts of the south) or just English and Norman like along the borders - Although the distinction is quite marked.

[Jackson]

Difficult to answer the question in general though, because I1 seems to have developed about 4000-4500 years ago according to people like Nordvedt who spent a lot of time working on it. R1a has likely been in Scandinavia a long time, and my view is that R1b is the youngest there - Especially given that variance indicated R1b-U106 is young in Scandinavia (old by our standards, but it was in central Europe (or perhaps eastern Europe/Baltic, although that is a whole other argument) before it was in Scandinavia (as you would expect), most likely while I and R1a were already there.

[o__o]

Yes, i associate it with Vikings, far more than R1a or R1b for example.

[member]

You may find it interesting:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/39229-New-datings-for-I1-clades-the-Bothnian-now-3000-years

[Artek]

The best are certain subclades of I1 and R1a(all downstream of Z284), definitely not every one of them. And rather not R1b, because of the younger age there(more recent migration).

Minor haplogroups like Q or N could be a good marker in some countries, like Great Britain.

[Pallantides]

Saami also have high frequency of I1(over 40%)

[Artek]

Saami also have high frequency of I1(over 40%)
Indeed. But I need to add that most of their I1 belongs to the "Bothnian" clades - not associated with Germanics and not present outside Saami-zone

[Pallantides]

Indeed. But I need to add that most of their I1 belongs to the "Bothnian" clades - not associated with Germanics and not present outside Saami-zone

Are there any genetic frequency maps of the Bothenian clade?

[Graham]

Anyway Y-DNA haplogroups tell very little of a persons overall genetic ancestry, I might be R1b-U106 but I'm genetically just as Nordic/Scandinavian as any Scandinavian I1 carrier.


No! Everyone should change their Surname to suit Ydna.. For example 'Mr Graham 'R1b-L21'.

[Peikko]

No! Everyone should change their Surname to suit Ydna.. For example 'Mr Graham 'R1b-L21'.

That would make me John Doe :(

[Artek]

Are there any genetic frequency maps of the Bothenian clade?
I've searched for it and I'm afraid that such map doesn't exist.
But from what i've seen, bothnian clade is present in northern sweden,northern norway, finland, russia and estonia.

[Jackson]

I've searched for it and I'm afraid that such map doesn't exist.
But from what i've seen, bothnian clade is present in northern sweden,northern norway, finland, russia and estonia.

Apparently Bothnian clade is older, and so I1 from Finnics to Germanics rather than the other way round. Human Master posted a link to a thread about it on Forumbiodiversity which has some very convincing arguments.

It's interesting that 'North Sea' and 'North Central Euro' components on Eurogenes are the major components of all Germanic peoples, but also Finnish people (for the most part/on average), the two seemed to be linked, and this can explain it.

[Peikko]

Indeed. But I need to add that most of their I1 belongs to the "Bothnian" clades - not associated with Germanics and not present outside Saami-zone

Are you trolling? Bothnian clade exists outside Saami-zone very much. It's associated with NW-Finland and NE-Sweden.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/I1-tree.gif

To the original topic, I1 isn't really Germanic-haplo at all:
Finland is the only country with more than 15% of I1 where the Germanic culture and language didn't take root. A good reason for this would be that Germanic culture didn't exist in Scandinavia at the time of the migration because the Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b) hadn't arrived yet.

Source: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

This basically means, that Scandinavians are largely just language shifters. There goes the Germanic-übermensch theory.

[Artek]

Are you trolling? Bothnian clade exists outside Saami-zone very much. It's associated with NW-Finland and NE-Sweden.

That's what I've said

But from what i've seen, bothnian clade is present in northern sweden,northern norway, finland, russia and estonia.

http://www.semargl.me/ru/dna/ydna/map-snp/310/
Anyway, that's the very simplified distribution lf I1-L258 "Bothnian". Some areas seem to be undertested but I'm sure that it's more of that in Northern Sweden and Estonia.




It's interesting that 'North Sea' and 'North Central Euro' components on Eurogenes are the major components of all Germanic peoples, but also Finnish people (for the most part/on average), the two seemed to be linked, and this can explain it.
Could you provide me with those percentages for various germanics and finnics?

[alfieb]

Are you trolling? Bothnian clade exists outside Saami-zone very much. It's associated with NW-Finland and NE-Sweden.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/I1-tree.gif

To the original topic, I1 isn't really Germanic-haplo at all:
Finland is the only country with more than 15% of I1 where the Germanic culture and language didn't take root. A good reason for this would be that Germanic culture didn't exist in Scandinavia at the time of the migration because the Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b) hadn't arrived yet.

Source: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

This basically means, that Scandinavians are largely just language shifters. There goes the Germanic-übermensch theory.

:lol:

What a load of horseshit. Or reindeer shit, if that's what you Finns would prefer.

That tree shows that I1 is quite Germanic in origin.

[Artek]

:lol:

What a load of horseshit. Or reindeer shit, if that's what you Finns would prefer.

That tree shows that I1 is quite Germanic in origin.
ANCESTRALLY, first I1 wasn't Germanic. The same goes with I2 in Slavs.

[Peikko]

:lol:

What a load of horseshit. Or reindeer shit, if that's what you Finns would prefer.

That tree shows that I1 is quite Germanic in origin.

You're the one full of shit. Read the source and get educated. I1 was here before Germanic-language group existed.

Actually R1a and R1b aren't Germanic either, but rather pan-Indo-European.