European ethnicities on verge of extinction. [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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Jarl

08-28-2009, 09:47 AM

Here I present a short list of ethnicities which are likely to die out within the next 50-100 years. I will start from the Ugro-Finnic ethnicities of Eastern Europe:

I. Finno-permic:

-----> 1) Permic group:

- Udmurt or Votyak
- Komi-Permyak
- Komi-Zyrian

-----> 2) Finno-cheremisic:

----------> A) Mari or Cheremis

----------> B)Finno-mordvinic:

a) Mordvin:

-Erzya-Mordvin
-Moksha-Mordvin

b) Finno-Lappic: Lappic and Baltic Finnic:

- Finnish
- Estonian
- Karelian
- Meänkieli
- Veps - In danger of extinction
- Livonian - extinct
- Votic - Almost extinct
- Izhorian - Almost extinct
- Ingrian Finnish

II. Ugric:

----->1) Hungarian

----->2) Ob Ugric (Khanty or Ostyak and Mansi or Vogul)

Below is a map of their current distribution:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

For comparison, here is historical Fenno-Ugric distribution in antiquity (numbered grey shading):

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9096/mapawnb.png

Historical distribution (during Slavic expansion and early Medieval Ages):

http://wiki.verbix.com/uploads/Languages/Finno-Volgaic.png

Most of the endangered Baltic-Finnic ethnicities inhabit historical Ingria, which today is a part of Russian Federation:

http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/351/351images/ingria.jpg

1. Votes of Ingria - 20 left.

Votic or Votian is the language spoken by the Votes of Ingria. It is closely related to Estonian and belongs to the Balto-Finnic subgroup of Finno-Ugric languages. Votic is spoken only in Krakolye and Luzhitsy, two villages in the Kingisepp district, and is close to extinction. In 1989 there were 62 speakers left, the youngest born in 1938. In its 24 December 2005 issue, The Economist wrote that there are only approximately 20 speakers left.[3]

In the 19th century it was already declining in favour of Russian (there were around 1,000 speakers of the language by the start of the World War I), but its decline was accelerated under Soviet rule, when the Vote population diminished by 90% between 1926 and 1959. Since then, the Votes have, as far as possible, concealed their Votic identity, pretending to be Russians in the predominantly Russian environment. Votic originally had several dialects: Western, Eastern, Kukkusi and Kreevin (an enclave in Latvia). Of these, Kreevin became extinct in the 19th century and Eastern in the 1960s.

More on Votes:

Votes are people of Votia in Ingria (part of modern day northwestern Russia, roughly (south)west of Saint Petersburg, near, and east of, the Estonian border-town of Narva). Their own ethnic name is Vadjalain (plural: Vadjalaizõt). The Finno-Ugric Votic language spoken by Votes is close to extinction. Votians were one of the founding people of Veliky Novgorod.

As a distinct people, Votes have become practically extinct after Stalinist dispersion to Soviet provinces far away — as 'punishment' for alleged disloyalty and cowardice during World War II. In 1989, there were still 62 known Votes left, the youngest of whom was born in 1930. In 1848, the number of Votes had been 5,148 (Ariste 1981: 78). Along with the Izhorians, they are generally Orthodox, while the other Finnic inhabitants of Ingria, the Ingrian Finns, are Lutheran.

On extinct Latvian Votes (settled in Courland in XVI century) - the Krevinians: http://www.roots-saknes.lv/Ethnicities/Vots/vots.htm

Map of Votic villages of Ingria (just East of Estonia and Narva):

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/3259/vaddjamaa.jpg

"Virtual Votia" - http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/3259/index.html ... Votian woman:

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/3259/ariste-vaddjamaalla.jpg

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol13/pics/ergov.jpg

Votian folklore:

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol13/news.htm#4

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol12/spirits.htm

In this article I intend to focus on the belief reports, legends and descriptions of customs concerning the bodies of water and water-related supernatural beings recorded from the Votian linguistic area in the Votian language. 1 As compared with the analogous Finnish (Jauhiainen 1998: 257-266), Estonian and Livonian material (see, for example, Loorits 1998: 111-210) the records of Votian folklore are scarce and relatively fragmentary, comprising a total of 120 shorter or longer texts. Except for a few from the 18th century, the era of the exploration of Votian folklore, the majority of accounts were collected by the greatest researcher of the Votian language of the 20th century, Paul Ariste, an academician and professor of Tartu University. (These are available in the collection of manuscripts «The Votian Ethnology» and partially published in Ariste 1935; 1941; 1958; 1964; 1965; 1969; 1976; 1977.) In order to be able to orientate in this fragmentary material and categorise it in some way I will attempt to distinguish between the concepts reflecting the tradition spheres of different periods based on certain religious phenomenological processes as described by the Estonian historian of folk religion Ivar Paulson in his collection of essays «The Old Estonian Folk Religion» (1971).

Although the Votian linguistic area was relatively small during the collection period, we can distinguish between the preferences of different village groups as regards the names of the water spirits2, beliefs and characteristic plots of folk narratives: particularly the Central Votia rich in lakes (the village groups of Orko, Mätshi and Kabrio) contrasted with the western coastal villages and those at the River Lauga (the village group of Vaipooli and Kukkuzi; see map). The geographical position of the village groups has determined their different natural surroundings and sources of livelihood. Even in the middle of the 20th century people in Vaipooli gained their sustenance mostly from deep-sea fishing (the coastal villages had retained the common dragnet crews), whereas in Central and East Votia the smaller-scale fresh-water fishing had only a secondary role in providing subsistence (see Ränk 1960: 79). The difference is reflected correspondingly in the tradition concerning water spirits: in the Central Votian lake area the perception of water spirits was never associated with fishing, whereas in the villages of Vaipooli it was clearly a part of fishing at sea and in the River Lauga.

Another map of Votian villages:

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol12/pics/emap.gif

Votian landscapes. Lake Süväjarvi. Photo by Ergo-Hart Västrik 1998:

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol12/pics/ergo2.jpg

Site at River Tshämee where water suddenly swirls upstream. According to the folk belief it was the place where resided water spirit («jõggõõ emä» or «vesi-emä»). Photo by Ergo-Hart Västrik 1998:

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol12/pics/ergo1.jpg

Fragments in the history of the Votic language (from http://www.aber.ac.uk/mercator/images/agranat.pdf ):

In the beginning of the 19th century Votic speaking people were enough numerous: there were more than 5000 persons and they lived in a large territory near Saint Petersburg. In 1861 after the fall of serfdom Votic people had to go to nearest towns to earn money. So they began speak Russian. Now, unfortunately, only several elderly persons speaking Votic remain in some villages, they all speak also Russian. Young people do not speak Votic. So it is an endangered language. There are some extra linguistic political causes for it.

During the Second World War the most part of Votic people perished. In 1943 all Votic, Ingrian and Finnish population of Ingria were moved to Finland, in 1944 they returned, but till 1953 they were forbidden to live in their villages. When they returned, the Votic language usage was prohibited. So, they tried to speak Russian with children and as the result only old generation now remember Votian.

WWII and post-war Soviet policy seem to be the main factors contributed towards near-extinction. Partly this might be also due to the rural character of the Votian culture. Votians never really underwent a "national awakening". They consider themselves "Ingrian":

In 1995, when I was there at my first expedition, almost all Votic people considered themselves as Ingrians, as the result of functionaries mistake in 1930th yaers. But Votian people, of course, distinguished their language from one of Ingrians. Now my informants remember their old ethnonym.

Steady work of ethnographists and linguists brought some positive effects:

But working with linguists the informants have practice and remember Votic. As persons knowing Votic began to be interested on it, they try now to speak this language to each other. So the nature functioning of the language is reviving. And the most important result of linguistic work in Votian villages is that children are interested in the Votic language and culture; they sing Votic folk songs that their parents do not know. (See Agranat 2002b).

Last year for the fist time in the history a Votic speaking woman began to teach this language (as not written) at a village school. She speaks to children her own idiolect; as Votic never had any norm, an individual speech of each native speaking is quite different. Now it is not a time to speak about standardization of the Votic language, the only chance for the endangered language to be revived is to be taught as living language. Otherwise we will have standard manuals, but will not have pupils, because there is the risk that children lose the interest of leaning Votic.

It's a fragile balance, yet there is some hope left.

2. Vepsians - 8000 to 12000 left.

Veps or Vepsians are a Finnic people that speak the Veps language, which belongs to the Baltic-Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric languages. The self-designations of these people in various dialects are vepslaine, bepslaane, and (in northern dialects, southwest of Lake Onega) lüdinik and lüdilaine. In early Russian chronicles, they are called "Весь" (Ves’).

From archeological studies and old names suggest that they lived at least in the valleys of the rivers Sheksna, Suda and Syas. They probably also lived in Olonets Karelia and on the northern coast of Lake Onega. One of the eastern routes of Vikings went through their area. Tomb findings prove that they had contact with Staraya Ladoga, western Finnish area and Meryans, other Volga Finnic tribes and later with Novgorod and other Russian principalities. Later Vepsians inhabited also Western and Eastern shores of Onega.

From 12th century their history is connected with first Novgorod and then Russia. Eastern Vepsians in Kargopol area merged linguistically with Russians before 20th century. Western Vepsians have kept their language and culture. Nowadays almost all Vepsians speak fluently Russian.

In modern times, they live in the area between Lake Ladoga, Lake Onega (Änine), and White Lake or Lake Beloye (Valged’ärv, Белое Озеро) - in the Russian Republic of Karelia in the former Veps National Volost (the northern Veps dialect area), in Leningrad Oblast along the Oyat River in the Podporozhskii and Lodeinopolskii raions and further south in the Tikhvinskii raion (western parts of the Central Veps dialect area), in the Vytegorskii and Babayevo raions of the Vologda Oblast (eastern parts of the Central Veps dialect area), and in the Boksitogorskii raion of the Leningrad Oblast (southern Veps dialect area).

According to the 2002 census, there were 8240 Veps in Russia. Of the 281 Veps in Ukraine, 11 speak Vepsian. (Ukr. Census 2001) A more recent study has estimated 11,300 Veps in the St. Petersburg and Northwest Russia area.[2]

Website dedicated to cultural and linguistic Vepsian preservation: http://www.veps.de/Teacher/teacher.htm

Vepsian community today:

Vepsia is nowadays separated into districts with no connections between them. It was invoked by Russian communists' politics of enforced assimilation. Thus in a dense taiga arouse a belt of emptied settlements. It was an idea of mine to pass around all Vepsian territories with my school pupils to show them our beautiful country lying disrupted, let them listen to different Vepsian tongues and admire the variety of tribal cultures. Another burning idea was to collect stuff for a Vepsian folk museum.

Traveling on vacations we used to stay for a couple of days in a Vepsian community and then made our way to another one by crossing extended areas of deserted villages lost in the heart of endless taiga forests. Just imagine us walking along an old way last time driven before the World War with huge logs lying across the road or climbing over a rotten bridge . In the evening twilight we arrive to a next village, lighting the way with our pocket lapms. It is unpopulated as well, but is looking quite undestroyed and you can choose among a couple of massive pine or spruce wooden cottages, what you'd prefer to stay in. But no hurry! It's rather cool in the house and there are no facilities in the village (electricity was cut off some twenty years ago). First of all you'd cut enough dry firewood (not so easy after it has been raining cats and dogs all these days) to make fire in a huge brick or clay stove middle the cottage. The stove is large enough for all of us to go up and bask on its bed-like upper part just under the ceiling. It is the favorite privacy place where Vepsian children prefer to sleep and a so called white oven is especially designed for this purpose. It isn't just an accommodation, but to some extent a sacred place, where thrilling folk myths are told in darkness...

Brick and clay stoves:

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/bapk.jpg

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/surpac.jpg

Traditional Vepsian folk song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjN64hvjM_4

Wooden houses:

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/pert.jpg

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/kukitas.jpg

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/suud.jpg

Vepsians:

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/museo/km.jpg

http://www.veps.de/Teacher/museo/niizne.jpg

http://www.korela.info/resources/i3746-icon-original.jpg

http://www.veps.de/Tapahtuu/Renaissance/image008.jpg

Countyside:

http://www.dailyexpress.ru/har/020.jpg

http://www.dailyexpress.ru/har/512.jpg

http://www.korela.info/resources/i3748-icon-original.jpg

http://www.dailyexpress.ru/har/88.jpg

Vepsian fishing log boat:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2321090-Travel_Picture-Vepsa.jpg

Winter:

http://www.korela.info/resources/i3735-icon-original.jpg

3. Izhorians - 200 left

The Izhorians (sg. ižoralaine, inkeroine, ižora, ingermans, ingers, ingrian), along with the Votes are an indigenous people of Ingria. Small numbers can still be found in the Western part of Ingria, between the Narva and Neva rivers in northwestern Russia.

The history of the Izhorians is bound to the history of Ingria. It is supposed that shortly after 1000, the Izhorians moved from Karelia to the west and south-west. In 1478, the Novgorod Republic, where Ingrians had settled, was united with the Grand Duchy of Moscow, and some of the Izhorians were transferred to the east. The establishment of St Petersburg in 1703 had a great influence on Izhorian culture. Deportations in 1929–1931 dramatically changed the demographics of Ingria. World War II had the biggest impact on Izhorian culture, as devastating battles (Siege of Leningrad) took place nearby.

In 1848, P. von Köppen counted 17,800 Izhorians, and by 1926 there were 26,137 Izhorians in the Russian SFSR. In the 1959 census, however, only 1,100 Izhorians were counted in the USSR. In 1989, 820 self-designated Izhorians, 302 of whom were speakers of the Ingrian language were registered. 449 Izhorians lived in the territory of the USSR. According to the 2002 Russian Census, there were 327 Izhorians in Russia, of whom 177 lived in Leningrad oblast and 53 in St Petersburg. There were also 812 Ingrians in Ukraine and a further 358 Ingrians in Estonia. [1]

Their language, close to Karelian, is used primarily by members of the older generation. Izhorian, along with Finnish, Karelian and Vepsian, belongs to the Northern Baltic-Finnic group of the Uralic languages. Izhorian consists of four dialects: Soikola, Hevaha (or Heva), lower-Luuga and Oredezhi — from the names of the Soikola (Soikinsky) peninsula and the Heva, Luuga (Lauga) and Oredezhi rivers.

In 1932–1937, a Latin-based orthography for the Izhorian language existed, taught in schools of the Soikino Peninsula and the area around the mouth of the Luga River.[2]. Several textbooks were published, including, in 1936, a grammar of the language. However, in 1937 the Izhorian written language was abolished and mass repressions of the peasantry began.[2] The Izhorians and the Votes are generally Orthodox, while the other Finnic inhabitants of Ingria, the Ingrian Finns, are generally Lutheran. Some pre-Christian traditions exist, also.

Izhorians are the close neighbours of the Votes:

http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/maps/bigmap1.gif

Old XIX century Russian maps showing Finnic-speaking areas (inhabited by Votes, Izhroians and Ingrians) of Ingria:

http://www.nlr.ru/eng/exib/len_obl/img2/K2-zap2-89.jpg

Womens' traditional dress:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Izorskiy_kostum_endXVIII.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Izhorian_woman.jpg

Looks somewhat similar to dresses of Novogrod female peasants.

4. Livs or Livonians - less than 100 left. 0 speakers left (the last first-language speaker of Livonian, Viktor Berthold, died in February, 2009; Livonian is further studied and cultivated as a second language)

Livonian belongs to the Baltic Finnic branch of the Uralic languages. It is a moribund language until recently spoken by some 35 people, of whom only 10 were fluent.[2] It is closely related to Estonian. The native land of the Livonian people is Livonia, located in Latvia, in the north of the Kurzeme peninsula.

Some ethnic Livonians are learning or have learnt the language in an attempt to revive it, but, as ethnic Livonians are a small minority, opportunities to use Livonian are limited. The Estonian newspaper Eesti Päevaleht announced that Viktor Berthold, the last native speaker who started the Latvian-language school as a monolingual, died on 28 February 2009. Some other Livonians recently argued, though, that there are some native speakers left[3]. An article published by the Foundation for Endangered Languages in 2007 stated that there were only 182 registered Livonians and a mere six native speakers.

The promotion of the Livonian language as a living language has been advanced mostly by Livonian Cultural Centre (Līvõ Kultūr Sidām), an organisation of mostly young Livonians. Livonian as a lesser used language in Latvia – along with Latgalian – is represented by the Latvian Bureau of Lesser Used Languages (LatBLUL), a national branch of the European Bureau of Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL).

As a second language, Livonian has about 20 speakers in Latvia.[4] However, the language is taught in universities in Latvia, Estonia and Finland, which constantly increases the pool of second-language speakers who do not constantly reside in Latvia.

History of the Livonians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonians

Livonians in Medieval Ages and today (darker shading):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Liivi_keel.GIF

Livonian:

http://img.tfd.com/wn/35/689FF-livonian.gif

Livonian village names:

http://homepage.mac.com/uldis/livonia/lib20gs.gif

Virtual Livonia: http://homepage.mac.com/uldis/livonia/intro.html

The last Livonian hold-out:

http://www.lfk.lv/latkarte_kolka.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/uldis/livonia/livodranda2.jpg

The last Livonians:

http://www.lfk.lv/krasone.jpg

http://www.lfk.lv/saltjare.jpg

http://www.lfk.lv/griiva.jpg

Before their extinction, they recorded traditional songs in Livonian:

http://www.lfk.lv/cd_liivli.jpg

This year songs in Livonian were recorded from two singers in north western Kurzeme. There are no later recordings of singing in LFK featuring this Finno-Ugrian language. Still there is a quite long fragment of conversation in Livonian between Valda Suvcane and Viktors Bertholds recorded in summer 2003 (a sample is available here).

The two mentioned above singers were:

Hilda Griva, (maiden name Cerbaha), born in Sikrags 1910., died 13 September 1984 in Ventspils. Her father was a Livonian, mother - Estonian, the family used both languages, Hilda learned also the melodies of both nations. She also studied music, worked as a teacher of music, established and led the Livonian group "Kandla".

Katrina Krasone (maiden name Fletno), born in Kosrags 22 August 1890, died 1 June 1979. She sings without any musical education, in a characteristic folk style. Katrina was also featured in the film by Andris Slapins "Livu dziesma" ('Livonian Song'). Although her farmstead is gone, the birch tree planted on her birthday still grows proud and mighty.

Interesting that the same song has been recorded by Emilis Melngailis many years before from Marija Saltjare.

Marija Saltjare (maiden name Bertholde) was born in Pitrags in 1860, died in 1930. She has been among the best Livonian informants of the time, recorded also by Estonian adn Finnish scholars. She has narrated more than 200 folk-tales and legends and sung more than 90 songs (the collection is kept at Estonian folklore archive in Tartu). Listen what it sounds like according to Melngailis notes.

Some recordings can be found HERE (http://www.lfk.lv/1962_eng.html) Land of the Livonians:

http://homepage.mac.com/uldis/livonia/livodranda2.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5624855.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Tranquil_blue_(1258425411).jpg

http://www.celotajs.lv/cont/tour/tours/images/velo_kolka2.jpg

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3560296-the_beach-Kolka.jpg

http://www.travellingbirder.com/tripreports/uploads/209-Pygmy-Owl.jpg

http://akrusts.smugmug.com/photos/268426878_zFXhp-L.jpg

http://img5.travelblog.org/Photos/38640/204483/f/1552308-Cape-Kolka-0.jpg

http://birdblog.merseyblogs.co.uk/archives/grey1.jpg

http://www.balticgen.com/images/other%20latvia/October%20forest%20near%20Tukums%20Latvia.jpg

http://mikulastik.net/ondrej/images/2/25.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7623/picturesautumn20070101.jpg

http://latvianhistory.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/makonkolka.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1340/625176388_9f3143d5fc.jpg

http://web3038.wbh.deac.lv/admin/files/atteli/LIELIRBE1.jpg

Livonia in photography and music: http://web3038.wbh.deac.lv/print.php?menu_id=75&lang_id=1

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/10139389.jpg

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/19905786.jpg

The last Livonians (Viktor Berthold on the right) talking in their own language:

http://www.lfk.lv/Suvcane-Bertholds.jpg

Pity they are no more...

More on these ethnicities can be found here: "The Red Book of the Peoples of the Russian Empire" ( http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/livonians.shtml ).

Jarl

08-28-2009, 12:58 PM

So far the extinct European languages from the Uralic family encompass ( http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/fu.html ):

- Kemi (XIX century) and Akkala (2003) Sami

- Livonian (2009)

Western Sami languages:

Southern Sami
Ume Sami
Pite Sami
Lule Sami
Northern Sami

Eastern Sami languages:

Inari Sami
Kemi Sami (extinct)
Skolt Sami
Akkala Sami (extinct)
Kildin Sami
Ter Sami

The Sami languages form a branch of the Uralic language family. According to the traditional view, Sami is within the Uralic family most closely related to the Baltic-Finnic languages (Sammallahti 1998). However, this view has recently been doubted by some scholars, who argue that the traditional view of a common Finno-Sami protolanguage is not as strongly supported as has been earlier assumed[2], and that the similarities may stem from an areal influence on Sami from Baltic-Finnic.

In terms of internal relationships, the Sami languages are divided into two groups: western and eastern. The groups may be further divided into various subgroups and ultimately individual languages. (Sammallahti 1998: 6-38.) Parts of the Sami language area form a dialect continuum in which the neighbouring languages may be to a fair degree mutually intelligible, but two more widely separated groups will not understand each other's speech. There are, however, sharp and absolute language boundaries, in particular between Northern Sami, Inari Sami and Skolt Sami, the speakers of which are not able to understand each other without learning or long practice.

Historical and modern range of the Sami:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/Corrected_sami_map_II.PNG

http://www.pitesamisk.no/bilder/innebygde/bunnsp2.jpg

1. Southern Sami - 500
2. Ume Sami - 10 speakers
3. Pite Sami - 20 speakers
4. Lule Sami - 2000 speakers
5. Northern Sami - 15 000 to 25 000
6. Skolt Sami - 400 speakers
7. Inari Sami - 400 speakers
8. Kildin Sami - 753 speakers
9. Ter Sami - 10 speakers

1. Akkala Sami were neighbours of the Skolt (their languages closely related):

Akkala Sami is a Sami language that was spoken in the Sami villages of A´kkel and Ču´kksuâl, in the inland parts of the Kola Peninsula in Russia. Formerly erroneously regarded as a dialect of Kildin Sami, it has recently become recognized as an independent Sami language that is most closely related to its western neighbor Skolt Sami.

The last known speaker of Akkala Sami, Marja Sergina, died on December 29, 2003, and it is now extinct.[1] The language remains the most poorly documented of the Sami languages.

http://www.nectareal.com/wp-content/themes/thesis_151/rotator/sami-family.jpg

2. Kemi Sami inhabited Northern Finland. Their language was similar to the Skolt and Inari.

Kemi Sami is a Sami language that was originally spoken in the southernmost district of Finnish Lapland as far south as the Sami siidas around Kuusamo. A complex of local variants which had a distinct identity from other Sami dialects, but existed in a linguistic continuum between Inari Sami and Skolt Sami (some Kemi groups sounded more like Inari, and some more like Skolt, due to geographic proximity). Extinct now for over 100 years, few written examples of Kemi Sami survive. Johannes Schefferus's Lapponia from 1673 contains two yoik poems by the Kemi Sami Olof (Mattsson) Sirma, "Guldnasas" and "Moarsi favrrot". A short vocabulary was written by Jacob Fellman in 1829 after he visited the villages of Kuolajärvi and Sompio (Äima, F, Itkonen, T.I. 1918: Jacob Fellmanin muistiinpanot Sompion ja Kuolajärven lapin murteista. Suomalais-Ugrilaisen Seuran Aikakauskirja 30 p. 1-91.).

Finland's Sami:

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/25/95625-004-896D4F48.jpg

Lappland - the dark Pohjola:

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/60/2060-004-BDA156E1.jpg

http://parfsten.web.aplus.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lappland.jpg

http://www.gonomad.com/beourguest/uploaded_images/best-of-finland-485-797270.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Lappland_USImmigrants.jpg

http://www.tkk.fi/Units/Auto/pics/day_starts_at_some_test_track_on_lappland.jpg

Northern Lights over Lappland:

http://www.mostphotos.com/preview/81068/Northern-lights-Lappland.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Sapmi_Lappland.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4535/fin59.jpg

http://s3.images.com/huge.42.213815.JPG

Lapp tents:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=10311&rendTypeId=4

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6379/fin46.jpg

Finland Lapps in 1936:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Sami_family_Finland_1936.jpg

Blonde Lapp children:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3464/3271193394_e901642869.jpg

http://img2.allposters.com/images/DANPOD/EU08_NWH0043_M-FB.jpg

http://www.europealacarte.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/torne-river-2.jpg

http://events.mnhs.org/Media/Images/Events/3172/highres/Sami%20woman_Finland.jpg

http://www.lapland-travel-info.com/image-files/samipeople.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WSQsPuiQ9Nc/SbuEhFmMMcI/AAAAAAAABM4/8qP4IwndQRE/s320/Finland+Sami+man+1880+wood+stick+after+nature.jpg

And my favourite - "the hunter":

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WSQsPuiQ9Nc/R32Fm7SdpkI/AAAAAAAAAew/cwWkeI6oWf0/s400/Lappland%2Bmann%2BAlgot%2BStand%2B1894%2Bcropped.j pg

3. Ume Sami - 10 speakers

Ume Sami is a Sami language spoken in Sweden and Norway. It is a dying language with only about 10 native speakers left and is spoken mainly along the Ume
River in the north of Arjeplog and Arvidsjaur. Ume Sami is one of the four Sami languages that does not have an official written language, although it was the first Sami
language to be written extensively. The New Testament was published in Ume Sami in 1755 and the first Bible in Sami was also published in Ume Sami, in 1811.

This language is bound to become extincs within the next few years.

4. Ter Sami - 10 speakers left in 2004

Ter Sami is the easternmost of the Sami languages. It was traditionally spoken in the northeastern part of the Kola Peninsula, but now it is a dying language; in 2004, only ten speakers were left.In the end of the 19th century, there were six Ter Sami villages in the eastern part of the Kola Peninsula, with a total population of approximately 450. In 2004, there were approximately 100 ethnic Ter Sami of whom ten elderly persons speak the language; the rest have shifted their language to Russian.[1]

The rapid decline in the number of speakers was caused by Soviet collectivisation, during which use of the language was prohibited in schools and homes in the 1930s, and the largest Ter Sami village, Jokanga, was declared "perspectiveless" and its inhabitants were forced to move to the Gremikha military base.[1]
There are no educational materials or facilities in Ter Sami, and the language has no standardized orthography. The language is incompletely studied and documented; text specimens, audio recordings as well as dictionaries for linguistic purposes exist[2][3], but no grammatical description is available.

Curiously, the earliest known documentation of Sami languages is a short Ter Sami vocabulary collected by the British explorer Stephen Burrough in 1557; the vocabulary was published by Richard Hakluyt.[4]

Ter Sami, like Vepses and Izhorians seem to succumb to russification. There is however the "Kola Saami Documentation Project (KSDP):
Linguistic and ethnographic documentation of the endangered Kola-Saami languages" : http://www2.hu-berlin.de/ksdp/ concerned with preservation of Akkala-, Kildin-, Skolt-, and Ter Saami heritage. Project is run the Nordeuropa-InstitutHumboldt-Universität zu Berlin.

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/ksdp/Graphiken/foto2.gif

The aim of the project is to provide comprehensive linguistic and ethnographic documentation of the endangered Saami languages of Russia, which are spoken in the northwestern-most region of Russia (Murmansk Region – Murmanskaja oblast') on the Kola Peninsula. The Kola Saami languages Skolt, Kildin, Ter and Akkala belong to the group of eastern Saami languages. Saami itself is a branch of the Uralic language family.

Today only a minor part of the approximately 1800 Kola Saami speak and understand their mother tongue fluently. Most of them are elder speakers. The middle generation has either a very limited knowledge of Saami, or does not know the language at all. There is almost no member of the younger generation who actively uses Saami. The absence of a language environment in which the language is spoken by everyone all the time as well as a lack of social motivation for language use pose a threat to the survival of the languages. Taking into account the age of the active speakers, the end of the Saami speech communities in Russia is probably not far away.

Ter Sami and Russian Skol Sami are bound to become extinct in the nearest future:

There are probably less than 300 speakers of Kildin who actively use their language. The situation is even more dramatic in the case of Skolt and Ter. There are only a few Ter and Skolt Saami (in Russia) who use their mother tongue today. Akkala is probably extinct already.

Western Saami:

South Sami - Norway, Sweden 300–500 seriously endangered
Ume - Sweden < 20 nearly extinct
Pite - Sweden < 20 nearly extinct
Lule - Norway, Sweden 2 000–3 000 seriously endangered
North - Norway, Sweden, Finland 30 000 endangered

Eastern Saami:

Inari - Finland 300-500 seriously endangered
Kemi - Finland, Russia extinct (19th century)
Skolt - Norway extinct (20th century)
Skolt - Finland 300–500 seriously endangered
Skolt - Russia < 20 nearly extinct
Kildin - Russia 300–700 seriously endangered
Ter - Russia < 20 nearly extinct
Akkala - Russia probably extinct (2003)

The Saami languages: number of speakers and degree of endangerment. Sources: Sammallahti (1998), Hasselblatt & Blokland (2003), Salminen (1993), own estimates (for Kola-Saami).

Some on more Kola Sami: http://arcticstudies.pbworks.com/Sami-Culture-in-Russia

This picture is called 'master of the tundra' and it was taken by Alexander Stephanenko:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/456425730_f6c50f47dd.jpg

Russian Skolt Sami:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Russian_Skolt_Sami_after_Photo_1871.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2362904873_6cf05777cb.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/232/456430642_feae437b9a.jpg

Reindeer "food industry":

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/181/456425692_737f1745e4_o.jpg

These pictures are of a performance in Sami Culturual Centre in Lovozero.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/456425702_039ffacafa_o.jpg

http://www.eng.samer.se/images/350px/Ryska_kvinnor_SPR_jmk05_350.jpg

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2007/20070226_sami.jpg

Russian, Swede, Sami, Goth: The four languages spoken in the Nordic by Olaus Magnus (1555)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2626/3721782258_b7b5362710.jpg

5. Pite Sami - 20 speakers

Pite Sami, also known as Arjeplog Sami, is a Sami language traditionally spoken in Sweden and Norway. It is a dying language that has only about twenty native speakers left and is now only spoken on the Swedish side of the border along the Pite River in the north of Arjeplog and Arvidsjaur and in the mountainous areas of the Arjeplog municipality. Pite Sámi has 9 cases.

There is project to sace Pite Sami language carried out by the Department for Northern European Studies
Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin: http://www2.hu-berlin.de/psdp/index.html

Brief Project Description

The Pite Saami Documentation project shall create and archive current linguistic documentation of Pite Saami (also known as Arjeplog Saami), a severly endangered and essentially moribund Saami language spoken by a mere handful of Saami in and around Arjeplog, Sweden. The project will ultimately result in modern dictionaries and grammatical descriptions, transcriptions of older archived recordings, and a dissertation on morphophonological alternations in this language.

Arjeplog and Pite River region:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/psdp/components/iggesjaavrre_small.jpg

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/psdp/components/Arjepluovve_mini.jpg

Project under way:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/psdp/components/Dagny_Josh_mini.jpg

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/psdp/components/Henning_Elsy_mini.jpg

Reindeers:

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/psdp/components/stalotomter_mini.jpg

Pite Sami in Norway: http://www.pitesamisk.no/ (in Norwegian):

http://www.pitesamisk.no/bilder/pitekart10.jpg

Pite Sami dress:

http://www.pitesamisk.no/bilder/Spraak%20og%20kultur/arjeplogdraktbegge450.jpg

http://www.pitesamisk.no/bilder/Spraak%20og%20kultur/arjeplogdraktkvinne450.jpg

http://www.pitesamisk.no/bilder/Spraak%20og%20kultur/arjeplogdraktmann450.jpg

http://www.pitesamisk.no/bilder/Duoddara%20raffe/styret500.jpg

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 01:36 PM

Jarl

08-28-2009, 02:00 PM

Good job Jarl. There are few small mistakes but one I really need to correct. Veps-people are not the Chudes even tho' some ethnologists have called them that way. Veps were one of the nations that established Russia, together with the Chudes. This is what Russian Primary Chronicle says about ethnogeography back then

Yeah! Chudes were ancestors of Estonians and Votes I reckon. Am I correct on that? I am not certain why Vepses are sometimes called "Chudy" in Russian. Where did the Izhorians come from?

It seems Russians called "Chudes" all proto-Estonians, Votes and Vepses alike:

Chud or Chude is a term historically applied in the early Russian annals to several Finnic peoples in the area of what is now Finland, Estonia and Northwestern Russia.

The term Chudes was first applied by a monk Nestor in the earliest Russian chronicles to proto-Estonians.[1] According to Nestor in 1030 Yaroslav I the Wise invaded the country of the Chuds and laid the foundations of Yuriev, (the historical Russian name of Tartu, Estonia). Then it was used for other Baltic Finns called volok which is thought to refer to the Karelians.

According to Old East Slavic chronicles the Chudes were one of the founders of the Rus' state.[1] Folk etymology derives the word from Old East Slavic language (chuzhoi, 'foreign'; or chudnyi 'odd'; or chud 'weird').

Later, the word "Chudes" was more often used for more eastern Finnic peoples, Veps and Votes in particular, while some derivatives of "chud" like chukhna or chukhonets were applied to more western Finns and Estonians. Following the Russian conquests of Finland 1714–1809, and increasing contacts between Finns and Saint Petersburg, Finns perceived the word Chud to be disparaging and hinting at the serfdom that the Russians were believed to find fit for the Finns. However, as a disparaging word, it was rather "chukhna" that was applied also to Finns (and likewise to Estonians) as late as during the Winter War, 1939–1940, between the Soviet Union and Finland.

In present day Russian vernacular the word chukhna is often used to denote Veps. The name Chudes (or Northern Chudes) has been used for Veps people also by some anthropologists.

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 02:47 PM

Yeah! Chudes were ancestors of Estonians and Votes I reckon. Am I correct on that? I am not certain why Vepses are sometimes called "Chudy" in Russian. Where did the Izhorians come from?

Yes, you are. Chud' seem to have been collective name for "tribes" belonging to southern group of Balto-Fennics. Later the Chude expanded to cover all Balto-Fennics and finally it became mythological. There are plenty of folktales about the "white eye Chude" in Russia. Chudes are allways fabulously rich in those stories but hate christianity. When christianity came to north Russia the Chudes disappeared. According to tales they went to their underground kingdom.

Considering that language of Orthodox church is Church Slavonic those tales are actually allegory to language change. People tought that the Chude disappeared because of the christianity. Estonians did not accept Orthodox christianity so they didnt disappear.

Main street of old Novgorod was called "Chud st.", brother-in-law (and lord of Novgorod and Kiev) of Rurik the Rus' was Oleg (Helgi), often nicknamed as Chudin Boyar ("Chud' lord").

Izhorans (Inkerikko is their real name) are too ancient people, they did not come from anywhere. They grew up from Ingrian ground like mushrooms :D

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 03:13 PM

Old Skool Ingrian Finns, early 1900's, before the genocide (when they were not "endangered spieces" but ethnic majority of Ingermanland)

http://www.inkeri.com/Toikkajuhana.JPG
http://www.inkeri.com/Pietaritoikka.JPG
http://www.inkeri.com/Toikkapietari.JPG
http://www.inkeri.com/Liljajakaapre.JPG
http://www.inkeri.com/mputro.jpg
http://www.inkeri.com/Aapo%20Iho.jpg

Some contemporary Inkeri's:

http://www.inkeri.ee/INKERI/2008_04/inkerinuutiset.JPG
http://photofile.ru/photo/tvilla/95055957/large/97027686.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Inkerin_liput.jpg/250px-Inkerin_liput.jpg

Aemma

08-28-2009, 03:35 PM

Now this is the kind of thread that makes The Apricity a jewel! Excellent work gentlemen and thank you! :thumb001:

Such beautiful people and cultures disappearing from this earth before our very eyes. Now THAT is a racial tragedy! :mad:

Keep up the excellent work! I'm looking forward to reading more...

Cheers for now!...Aemma :)

Jarl

08-28-2009, 03:39 PM

:) Right... I added loads of pics of Lapps and views from Finland and Kola. Next stop - South Estonians! Thanks for the pics Hweinlant!

Handful of rough conlusions. Looking through those websites and articles, it appears that:

1. communism and WWII decimated Finnic-speaking populations of Ingria,

2. there was inadequate policy and no concern for Finnic or Sami heritage preservation in Soviet Union,

3. in the Soviet Union, there were brutal interventions into the traditional lifestyle of these people and attempts of russification.

Nonetheless the number of Russian Sami seems to be steadily increasing:

Since 1926 the number of Sami in Russia has gradually increased:

census 1926: 1,720 (this number refers to the total Soviet Union)
census 1939: 1,829
census 1959: 1,760
census 1970: 1,836
census 1979: 1,775
census 1989: 1,835
census 2002: 1,991

I cannot really explain why the Swedish-Norwegian Ume and Pite Sami are on the verge of extinction now... what was the Norwegian and the Swedish policy towards the Sami in the past? Anybody knows??? From what I gathered here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corrected_sami_map_II.PNG

Ume Sami language is not recognized by the local Norwegian distric authorities. Though the neighbouring Pite languge is. Norwegian Pite Sami:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Pitesamisk_beiarn_2005.jpg

Another Norwegian Sami:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Sj%C3%B8samisk_Mann_Finnmark_Norge_Ivar_Samuelsen_ 1884_av_Bonaparte.jpg

Is it voluntary germanisation and emigration into cities? I found this:

For long periods of time, the Sami lifestyle thrived because of its adaptation to the Arctic environment. Indeed, throughout the 18th century, as Norwegians of Northern Norway suffered from low fish prices and consequent depopulation, the Sami cultural element was strengthened, since the Sami were mostly independent of supplies from Southern Norway.

A Pite Sami from Beiarn, NorwayHowever, in the 19th century, Norwegian authorities put the Sami culture under pressure in order to make the Norwegian language and culture universal. A strong economic development of the north also took place, giving Norwegian culture and language status. On the Swedish and Finnish side, the authorities were much less militant in their efforts; however, strong economic development in the north led to a weakening of status and economy for the Sami.

The strongest pressure took place from around 1900 to 1940, when Norway invested considerable money and effort to wipe out Sami culture. Notably, anyone who wanted to buy or lease state lands for agriculture in Finnmark, had to prove knowledge of the Norwegian language. This also ultimately caused the dislocation in the 1920s, which increased the gap between local Sami groups (something still present today) and sometimes bears the character of an internal Sami ethnic conflict. Another factor was the heavy war destruction in northern Finland and northern Norway in 1944-45, destroying all existing houses or kota, and visible traces of Sami culture. After World War II, the pressure was relaxed somewhat.

The controversy around the construction of the hydro-electric power station in Alta in 1979 brought Sami rights onto the political agenda. In August 1986, the national anthem (Sámi soga lávlla) and flag (Sami flag) of the Sami people were created. In 1989, the first Sami parliament in Norway was elected. In 2005, the Finnmark Act was passed in the Norwegian parliament. This law gives the Sami parliament and the Finnmark Provincial council a joint responsibility of administering the land areas previously considered state property. These areas (96% of the provincial area), which have always been used primarily by the Sami, now belong officially to the people of the province, Sami or Norwegian, and not to the Norwegian state.

So:

1. There were organised attempts to assimilate/dislocate Samis. Partucluarly in Norway,

2. WWII also contributed to the demographical recession of Finland's and Norway's Sami.

More on Sami dislocation and the history of Sami here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dislocation_of_Sami_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_history#Danish-Norwegian_policies_in_the_North

Wiki states Sweden and Finland were liberal towards the Sami, while Norway seemd to be a bit less concerned:

News in Sami on national radio in Norway started in 1946. At about the same time, experiments were being done with bilingual teachings of the alphabet in the first and second grade, to ease the learning process. However, the presence of a Sami minority in Norway was largely ignored. Education, communication, industrialization, all contributed to integrating Sami communities into Norwegian society at the point of losing identity.

I guess this explains it best. No adequate policy for the preservation of Sami language among school children, plus simultaneous progressive urbanisation/industrialisation pushing the Sami away or sucking them in.

Loki

08-28-2009, 04:18 PM

Silesians. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesians)

There are only 170,000 Silesians left in their native lands (current Poland) ... the rest have been expelled from their homeland after World War II.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Z_dolnoslaskie.jpg/777px-Z_dolnoslaskie.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Slazaczka.jpg

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 04:24 PM

Handful of rough conlusions. Looking through those websites and articles, it appears that:

[b]1. communism and WWII decimated Finnic-speaking populations of Ingria,

Genocide of Ingrian autochtons started in 1920's, it's hayday was reached in 1937 when Finnish language was declared "bourguese nationalist" language, basically Finnish (and other autochton) ethnicities were made illegal in Soviet Union. Rest of the schools were closed (there was some 300 Finnish schools in Ingermanland), all newspapers closed and academia murdered. Some 10.000 Finns are to be found from Levasovo massgrave. Many more in Karelia. 2 years later Soviets attacked Finland, 1939, in order to "protect Leningrad from the fascists".

Allready before that lot of Ingrians were killed and deported. Some 100.000 Finns were dispersed into Siberia and Cenral-Asia, many send to deathcamps. This is the unknown genocide in Europe. Finland was able to evacuate some 60.000 Ingrian autochtonos to Finland with help of Germany during WW2. After the war Soviets promised that the Ingrians can return to their homes in Ingermanland. This was blatant lie. They were put into trains, these trains did not take them home but to Bolshevik deathcamps and deportation at faraway lands.

Russian Federation was kind enough to rehabilate Ingrians 1993. Yet no compensation for lost lands, farms and lives. There are no memorials for Ingrians and no Russian officials have ever said "sorry". Infact most Russians living in Ingermanland (called; Leningrad oblast) dont even know that they are walking in Finnish lands. They havent asked the question; Why is St. Petersburg located at Leningrad region :rolleyes2:

2. there was inadequate policy and no concern for Finnic or Sami heritage preservation in Soviet Union,

There was policy of genocide.

Jarl

08-28-2009, 04:24 PM

Here is an interesting article explaining some of the mechanisms of Sami assimilation: http://www.galdu.org/web/index.php?odas=2686&giella1=eng

RIGHTS: Finland´s Sami Fear Assimilation

HELSINKI -- There are growing concerns among the Sami people in Finland that their traditional way of life as an indigenous people is under threat.

By Linus Atarah, IPS

The difficulty facing us is that we are facing comprehensive and complete assimilation all the time," Pekka Aikio, former president of the Sami Parliament told IPS.

The Sami are recognised in the Finnish Constitution as an indigenous people. They have an elected parliament that handles their affairs, and have the right to receive services in their own language. But parts of the state administration do not pay attention to the constitutional recognition, says Martin Scheinin, professor of international law at the Åbo Academy in Turku city, 170km from capital Helsinki.

They keep treating the Samis as a linguistic minority," Scheinin told IPS following a meeting on the rights of the Sami organised by the Finnish League for Human Rights last week.

(...)

No secure landrights

Scheinin says the Sami way of life is threatened significantly by competing usage of land -- often by the government itself -- through cutting down forests. This destroys pastoral lands of the reindeer, and besides the harm done to reindeer herding, brings social and emotional stress. A central issue, according to Scheinin, is that the Sami have no secure land rights in Finland. Large areas of land in the north where many Sami live is state-owned. "Nobody knows how the government got this land, from whom they bought it. They simply took it," said Prof. Scheinin.

(...)

The Sami language lives and dies with the Sami way of life because the social activities around reindeer herding and in the nature-based forms of livelihood really keep up the living language. If it is isolated to a museum piece I think there will be no future for the Sami language," Scheinin said.

(...)

"It is only the artificial support that they are receiving across the borders from their brother and sisters that in way has enabled the continuation of their way of life," said Scheinin. "If it were the question of Finland alone, it would have resulted in destruction of the Sami way of life if not earlier, then during the last two decades."

In Norway apparently, Sami own their land. What do you say Walkila - is it politics or is it the truth? I guess the worst is already behind the Sami. They've been legally recognised as ethnic minorities/indigenous people and have their own rights. Particulraly in Norway, which holds vast majority of Sami population, they've been granted new rights by the Sami Act.

The Sami Act provides special rights for the Sami people (ibid.):

“...the Samis shall have their own national Sami Parliament elected by and amongst the Samis” (Chapter 1–2).
The Sami people shall decide the area of activity of the Norwegian Sami Parliament.
The Sami and Norwegian languages have equal standing in Norway (section 15; Chapter 3 contains details with regards to the use of the Sami language)."

Sami parliments were founded in Finland (1973), Norway (1989) and Sweden (1993). Today Sami languages have official status in some parts of Norway and are recognized as a minority language in several municipalities of Sweden and Finland.

Adopted in April 1988, Article 110a of the Norwegian Constitution states: "It is the responsibility of the authorities of the State to create conditions enabling the Sami people to preserve and develop its language, culture and way of life." The Sami Language Act went into effect in the 1990s. Sami is an official language of the municipalities of Kautokeino, Karasjok, Gáivuotna (Kåfjord), Nesseby, Porsanger, Tana, Tysfjord, and Snåsa.

A bilingual street sign in Enontekiö in both Finnish (top) and Northern SámiIn Finland, the Sami language act of 1991 granted Sami people the right to use the Sami languages for all government services. The Sami language act of 2003 made Sami an official language in Enontekiö, Inari, Sodankylä and Utsjoki municipalities.

On April 1, 2002 Sami became one of five recognized minority languages in Sweden. It can be used in dealing with public authorities in the municipalities of Arjeplog, Gällivare, Jokkmokk and Kiruna.

There is a Sami university in Norway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_University_College

On Sami legal status and language in schools, in Finland: http://www.siberian-studies.org/publications/PDF/beaikio.pdf

Attempts are made to save the language. However not all Finnish Sami can learn in their own language at school. However there is shortage of resources apparently. Particularly for the Inari Sami language speakers: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:x7h3-sswFoQJ:www.siida.fi/anaras/english/kieli/kieli.html+Inari+Sami+language+schools&cd=1&hl=pl&ct=clnk&gl=uk http://www.oulu.fi/giellagas/tiedostot/Inari%20Saami%202009-2011.pdf

On Sami legal status and schools in Sweden: http://www.uoc.es/euromosaic/web/document/sami/an/i2/i2.html

On Sami legal status and schools in Norway: http://www.norway.org.zm/education/education/primary/primary.htm and http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:Ad0D8AL9diwJ:www.lang.soton.ac.uk/profile/casestudies/fullversions/norway.rtf+Sami+language+schools+in+norway&cd=7&hl=pl&ct=clnk&gl=uk and http://www.reisenett.no/norway/facts/culture_science/sami.html

Good summary on Sami schools in all regions inhabited by the Sami: http://boreale.konto.itv.se/laante.htm

On Sami education and state-Sami conflicts in Norway: http://skuvla.info/index-e.htm and http://www.yukoncollege.yk.ca/~agraham/nost202/norwaysami.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images12/FinnishLapphundJaska12weeks.JPG

"Lapphund" :)

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 04:40 PM

In Norway apparently, Sami own their land. What do you say Walkila - is it politics or is it the truth?

It is both. There are problems in land ownership in the Lapland. Main issue tho' are internal Sami problems. They cant decide who really is Sami and who is not. Finns and Sami's have mixed so extensively in Finnish (north) Lapland that basically all Sami have Finnish ancestors and Finns with deep roots in Lapland have Sami ancestors. Also Finns in Lapland keep reindeers, it's actually big business nowadays. Sami have special rights due to their status as indigenous people which the local Finns dont have. Sami Congress defines who is Sami and who is not. Atm they do it on linguistical bases, you know the languege = Sami, dont know = Finn, even if the guys have exact similar lifestyle, job and are cousins. However, Sami in Finland are quite few, and have allways been like that. Norway is the Sami country, not Finland.

Liffrea

08-28-2009, 04:50 PM

A very enlightening thread, thanks, I hadn't heard of many of these people's before.

Jarl

08-28-2009, 04:57 PM

Good summary on Sami schools in all regions inhabited by the Sami: http://boreale.konto.itv.se/laante.htm

Overall, the situation varies and depends on the country and the partiuclar Sami group concerned. The worst situation is in Russia, where no separate education system is offered. The best situation seems to be in Norway. North Sami seem to be secure. Inari Sami of Finland and Southern Sami of Sweden not so much.

Btw. Walkila... what's this Karelian enclave doing in the Russian interior:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

The one below the Vepses...???

EDIT:

Right! These are the Tver Karelians: http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/maps/bigmap1.gif

The Tver Karelians inhabit areas west of Moscow where, they have enclaves in the districts of Likhoslavl, Spirovo, Rameshkovo and Maksatikha (in the 1960s they numbered approximately 90,000--100,000) A large group of Karelians lives in the districts of Vesyegonsky, Sandovo and Brusovo (in the 1960s approximately 20,000). There are Karelian villages in the districts of Molokovo, Krasny Holm and Vyshni Volochok, the southernmost of which are located in the vicinity of Rzhev. The southernmost Karelians live separately from other Tver Karelians in five villages on the Djorzha, a tributary of the River Volga. In 1890 there were 1,664 Karelians in the South Tver area, in 1911 they numbered 1,952. Today, their number has been reduced to 70 (according to J. Őispuu), most of whom return to their home villages only in summertime.

They were re-settled in 1617:

After the peace between Russia and Sweden in 1617 gave much of the Kexholm / Käkisalmi province to Sweden, several thousands Orthodox Karelians left to be resettled in the Tver province northwest of Moscow. The 1926 census put the number of Tver Karelians to 140,000. In the 1930s a separate Tver Karelian language was established. A national area was set up in July 1937, but as the Soviet authorities changed their mind about the Tver Karelians, the national area was abolished in early 1939. A dramatic reduction in the population followed, and in the 1989 there were only 23,000 Tver Karelians left. I am not aware of any flags for the Tver Karelians.

Currently almost utterly russified.

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 07:28 PM

Btw. Walkila... what's this Karelian enclave doing in the Russian interior:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

The one below the Vepses...???

They are Tver Karelians. After Stolbovo peace treaty 1617 (Sweden vs. Moscovia, we were victorious) many Orthodox Karelians left Ingermanland and Karelian isthmus. We had a tad bit fanatic Lutheran phase back then. Orthodox Finns (Karelians) escaped to Moscovite (religious brethren) side of the border. Tver was allmost empty back then due the war, so they found out lot of free land there. One of the greatest "Russian" war generals ever, Alexander Suvorov (Aleksi Syvävaara) was decendent from them.

There still exists some 15.000 Tver Karelians. During late Russian Empire era there was some 150.000 Tver Karelians, their numbers have dropped massively because of russification (standard ethnicity of Soviet Union).

Jarl

08-28-2009, 07:33 PM

Now, I will shortly describe the South Estonians, as the last Finnic ethnicities under threat of extinction. South Estonian is often cosidered as a separate Baltic Finnic language, which evolved from Northern Estonian. It consists of 4 dialects: Võro, Seto, Mulgi and Tartu:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/South_Estonian_language_area.jpg

South Estonian emerged in the 17th century as a distinct language[1] in Swedish Livonia aside the North Estonian language spoken in Swedish Estonia. The first South Estonian grammar was compiled by Johann Gutslaff in 1648.[2]

The South Estonian literary language (also Tartu literary language German: Dorpatestnisch) declined by the end of 19th century as the northern Estonian literary language (also Tallinn literary language German: Revalestnisch) became the standard for the Estonian literary language. [3]

After Estonia gained independence in 1920 the standardized Estonian language policies were implemented further throughout the country. The government officials during the era believed that the Estonian state needed to have one standard language for all its citizens that led to exclusion of South Estonian at schools. The ban on the instruction and speaking of South Estonian dialects in schools continued during Soviet occupation (1940-1990).[4]

After Estonia regained independence in 1991 the Estonian government has begun supporting the protection and development of regional languages.[4] The policy has led to the revival of South Estonian, a modernized literary form founded on historical South Estonian dialect Võro has been created.[5] [6]

The other dialects of South Estonian language area include Mulgi, Tartu, and Seto. Võro has remained furthest from the standard written Estonian language and has been least understood by speakers of other Estonian dialects.[6][2]

There about 50,000 to 70,000 speakers of the Voro and Seto dialect. Seto is spoken by 5000, though the two, I think, are very similar and no immediate boundary can be drawn. I guess with these numbers, and the new legislation, this language/dialect can survive. There have been South Estonian enclaves in Latvia in Russia too. These were Leivu, Lutsi and Kraasna dialects. They became extinct by/in XXth century:

The Leivu and Lutsi South Estonian enclaves in Latvia became extinct in the 20th century. [2] The Kraasna enclave in Russia, still aware of their identity has been assimilated linguistically by Russians. [7]

If we add onto the map the range of the related Livonian language during Medieval Ages, we'll get an image of a large, predominantly Baltic Finnic territory, North of the Daugava River:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5752/southestonianlanguagear.jpg

To finish off, I will only add that in Medieval Ages Slavs assimilated part of the Mari/Cheremis called the Merya, and also two other Volga Finnics: the Meshchera and the Muromians (both being probably branches of Mordvins). Their habitat is marked in red, green and purple:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Muromian-map.png

Also, the Baltic Finns, after having separated from other Volga Finnics, could possibly assimilate a whole branch of Southern Samis in prehistoric times.

EWtt

08-28-2009, 08:02 PM

Now, I will shortly describe the South Estonians, as the last Finnic ethnicities under threat of extinction. South Estonian is often cosidered as a separate Baltic Finnic language, which evolved from Northern Estonian.

I've even heard a theory that Estonia was settled by two different Baltic-Finnic tribes speaking different Baltic-Finnic languages, and over time their languages became similar due to mutual influence.

North and South Estonian are said to differ more than Swedish and Norwegian...

I guess Seto people (numbering around 10 000) are especially noteworthy, because they have historically developed quite differently from the majority of Estonians!

http://www.passportmagazine.ru/workdir/photos/22_9.jpg
Setos.

A separate ethnic group to the rest of Estonia, the Setos have their own unique traditions of singing runic verse and worshipping pagan deities and are one of the last remaining traditional folk cultures in Europe.

There are approximately 10,000 Setos all around the world. The bulk of Setos, however, are found in the Seto region (Setomaa [meaning "Land of War"]), which is divided between south-eastern Estonia (Põlva and Võro counties) and north-western Russian Federation (Pskov Oblast). Setos are an officially protected ethnic minority of Pskov Oblast.

The first significant event that separated Setos from Estonians was forced conversion of the latter into Catholicism in the 13th century, while Setos who lived in Novgorod Land remained pagans. In the 15th century Setos were converted into Orthodox Christianity but kept vernacular beliefs. Later elements of Catholic culture were brought to Setos by Estonian colonists, while in Estonia itself they eventually nearly disappeared after the Lutherification of Estonia.

The culture of Setos blossomed in early 20th century when many national societies of Setos were working. In 1905 number of Setos reached maximum. After the proclamation of independence of Estonia its authorities adopted policy of Estonification of its population which eventually lead to virtual disappearance of Setos as distinct linguistic entity of Estonia. In Russia due to influence of Estonian language schools, high rate of mixed marriages, and emigration to Estonia the number of Setos drastically decreased as well.

Unesco classified their language as being endangered in 2009.

http://www.setomaa.ee/images/setolipp.jpg
Flag of the Seto people

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/sxpavs4a91b239b9926.jpg
http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/dnyhxn4a91b261cd26c.jpg
http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/hxkovz4a91ae88cbeb4.jpg
http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/dntrxu4a919cee9f374.jpg
http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/vcunyd4a91a1519eab1.jpg

Jarl

08-28-2009, 08:10 PM

:) Splendid pictures! So these are the Orthodox Estonians? Could you post some more? And include Voro and Tartu people too? That last guy looks a bit like Gordon Ramsay ;)

I absolutely adore their male dress. Plain, simple and rustic. White and red... reminds me of Polish folk patterns from my ancestral Old Masovia. I also like that wide brimmed, black hat worn by the man on the first pic. Reminds me of some Polish highland hats. While the womans hat looks just like in Latvian costumes.

P.S.

I fixed the links on previous page.

EWtt

08-28-2009, 08:23 PM

:) Splendid pictures! Could you post some more? And include Voro and Tartu people too? That last guy looks a bit like Gordon Ramsay ;)

What mostly makes a Seto different from a Võro is their religion, and they say Seto is a dialect of the Võro language.

Tartu area people can pretty much be classified as "ordinary Estonians" by now, Tartu dialect isn't heard around too often anymore... :(

So, more Setos...

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/egdupd4a91a85436b6b.jpg

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/luqhjr4a91a052405ae.jpg

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/qmiqod4a919fe240f33.jpg

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/uqndok48a0aaf60d72d.jpg

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/uqndok48a0ab6e7c706.jpg

http://www.setomaa.ee/files/page_pics_fulls/qzckej48a0b1c5b5e41.jpg

Jarl

08-28-2009, 08:26 PM

Im really glad to see that folk culture is so vibrant in Estonia. Its particularly reassuring to see many young people and families participating. Is it some Seto folk festival? Do other regions of Estonia also have such events?

Few interesting pictures. Traditional dresses from Estonian islands of Saarema:

http://www.einst.ee/publications/folk_costume/saared/suur/saared5.jpg

http://www.einst.ee/publications/folk_costume/saared/suur/saared6.jpg

A member of a folk group from Tallin:

http://www.everyculture.com/images/ctc_02_img0367.jpg

Saarema:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jzNtTSG84cM/RlCUwjvB5iI/AAAAAAAAA_A/uQF80gI1Yvs/s320/DSC01748.JPG

http://www.palaeos.com/Paleozoic/Images/Saaremaa.jpg

http://www.budgettravel.lv/eng/px/cities/saaremaa.jpg

Finnic Netherlands ;)

Hweinlant

08-28-2009, 09:38 PM

Jarl,

Alexander Suvarov had Karelian background. Village his ancestry comes from was Kamenka (Kiveliö, in Finnish, "Stony place"), in Tver/Novgorod borderlandt. He was born in Moscow tho'. He spend enough time in his family mansion to learn the language. There are descriptions how he sings traditional Finnish/Karelian folksongs when passing the Alps on the way to Italy.

He also build fortifications in Finland and operated in local language. He told Swedish ambassador Jennings (1791) that his family came from Sweden (that is Finland) and Suvorov comes from words Sywe and Wara. Syvä = Deep and Vaara = Hill/Danger (compare to Vartija, Guard).

Comte Arnau

08-29-2009, 12:54 AM

Jarl

08-29-2009, 09:23 AM

An excellent thread.

I'd say the most threatened one in Western Europe is the one to which I partly belong: the Upper Aragonese. Nowadays it's almost completely assimilated to the Castilian/Spanish ethnicity, only some 6,000 to 8,000 people can still speak the language (in a quite Castilianized way).

Their traditional lifestyle in the Central Pyrenees disappeared along the 20th century. Many valleys and villages are now abandoned. As an ethnicity, it'll most likely be extinct in the next 20 years.

Are the Upper Aragonese very distinct from the Aragonese? Or are they pretty much the same?

Italo-Western -- >Pyrenean-Mozarabic --> Aragonese

Aragonese (pronounced /ˌærəɡɒˈniːz/ in English, aragonés in Spanish), is a Romance language now spoken in a number of local varieties by between 10,000 and 30,000 people over the valleys of the Aragón River, Sobrarbe and Ribagorza in Aragon. It is also colloquially known as fabla (literally, "speech") and is the only remaining speech form derived from medieval Navarro-Aragonese dialects.

Aragonese originated around the eighth century as one of many Latin dialects developed in the Pyrenees on top of a strong Basque-like substratum. The original Kingdom of Aragon (formed by the counties of Aragon, Sobrarbe and Ribagorza) was progressively expanded from the mountain ranges towards the South, pushing the Moors farther south in the Reconquista and spreading the Aragonese language.

The dynastic union of the Catalan Counties and the Kingdom of Aragon—which formed the Aragonese Crown in the twelfth century—did not result in a merging of the language forms of the two territories into a single form; Catalan continued to be spoken in the east, and Navarro-Aragonese in the west. The Aragonese reconquista to the south ended in the kingdom of Murcia, which was ceded by James I of Aragon to the Kingdom of Castile as a dowry for an Aragonese princess.

The spread of Castilian, now more commonly known as Spanish, and the Castilian origin of the Trastamara dynasty and a strong similarity between Castilian and Aragonese, meant that further recession was to follow. One of the key moments in the history of Aragonese was when a king of Castilian origin was appointed in the fifteenth century: Ferdinand I of Aragon, also known as Ferdinand of Antequera.

The mutual union of the crowns of Aragon and Castile and the progressive suspension of all capacity of self-rule from the sixteenth century meant that Aragonese, while still widely spoken, was limited to a rural and colloquial use, as the nobility chose Spanish as their symbol of power.

During the rule of Francisco Franco in the twentieth century and the spreading of compulsory schooling, Aragonese was regarded as a mere dialect of Spanish, and therefore was frowned upon (for example, pupils were punished in schools for using it).

Then, the constitutional democracy voted by the people in 1978 also meant the debut of literary works and studies conducted in and about the Aragonese language.

So Castilian is pretty much Spanish? Aragon among the provinces and districts of Spain:

http://www.taiwandna.com/SpainMapProvinces.png

Distribution of Aragonese:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Aragon_languages-en.png

It seems to be a very diverse language:

There are about 25-30 dialectal variants of Aragonese, the majority of which are in the province of Huesca, due to its mountainous terrain where natural isoglosses have developed around valley enclaves, and where, not surprisingly, the highest incidence of spoken Aragonese is found. Ribagorçan, is one such variant: an eastern Aragonese dialect, which is transitional to Gascon, Occitan, Catalan, and Spanish.

25-30 dialects is a lot for a language that is spoken by 10,000 to 30,000 people. Seems like every valley got its own dialect :) Can you speak any of these dialects, Boira?

Jarl

08-29-2009, 09:45 AM

These Latin-based languages are really complex. Romance languages:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance_20c_en.png

It seems that Aragonese and Upper Aragonese are exactly the same language.

http://www.orbilat.com/Schemes/Romance/Romance_tree.gif

Romance languages can be thus divided into: (A) an early Sardinian off-shoot, (B) the Eastern Romance and (C) the Italo-Western branches. The Eastern Romance branch encompasses languages from the Romanian family:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Map-balkans-vlachs.png

On the other hand, the much more diverese, Italo-Western languages can be in turn divided into numerous subsets:

I. Italo-Dalmatian branch:

- Italian (central Italian languages, southern Italian languages, e.g., Neapolitan and Sicilian, as well as Istriot, Judeo-Italian) .
- Dalmatian (extinct).

II. Western branch (includes 32 languages in further subsets):

.....1) The Pyrenean-Mozarabic group consists of two languages in two separate branches:

- Aragonese
- Mozarabic (extinct)

.....2) The Gallo-Iberian group includes:

...............A) The Gallo-Romance languages group:

- Occitano-Romance languages of France and Spain: Occitan and Catalan***

- Gallo-Italian languages: Piedmontese, Ligurian, Insubric or Western Lombard, Eastern Lombard, Emiliano-Romagnolo, and Venetian

- Rhaeto-Romance languages: Romansh of southern Switzerland, Ladin of the Dolomites mountains, Friulian of Friuli

- Langues d'oïl (including French) and several other languages of France including Franco-Provençal

...............B) The Ibero-Romance languages group includes:

- The West Iberian languages: Spanish, Portuguese, Galician, Ladino, Leonese, etc.
- The East Iberian languages : Catalan***

*** Catalan is regarded as a transitional language between the Ibero-Romance and the Gallo-Romance groups.

It seems thus that the Aragonese is the most distinct language in the Western branch. I am not certain about it, but it seems its more distinct from the Spanish, than the French. It's related to the extinc Mozarabic language, spoken by the Moors:

Mozarabic was a continuum of closely related Romance dialects spoken in Muslim dominated areas of the Iberian Peninsula during the early stages of the Romance languages' development in Iberia. Mozarabic descends from Late Latin and early Romance dialects spoken in the Iberian Peninsula from 5th to 8th centuries (Hispania was the name of a group of three provinces of the Peninsula and the name more commonly used at Roman and Visigothic times). This set of dialects came to be known as the Mozarabic language, though there was never a common standard. (Mozarab comes from the Arabic word مستعرب - musta'rab, i.e. "Arabized").

Mozarabic developed after the Arabic conquest of Spain. It went extinct and was replaced by Arabic and Spanish in later Medieval Ages.

Anyway. A handful of pics. Aragon river valley in the Huesca province - where Aragonese language is still spoken:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Valle_rio_aragon.jpg

Sobrarbe county:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4749/ainsaaltacalidadpu7.jpg

Ribagorza:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/1345383.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/spain/aragon/Huesca_provincia/Huesca_provincia2/Huesca_provincia16.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Valle_de_Tena,_provincia_de_Huesca.JPG

In winter:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Casa_Rural_y_Chic,_Borres,_Huesca,_Arag%C3%B3n_(Es pa%C3%B1a).jpg

Aragon castle in the Hueasca province:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/285954369_b52399e828_b.jpg

Pirineos:

http://www.posadareal.com/imgs/foto.caballo.jpg

http://www.posadareal.com/imgs/foto.ordesa.rio.jpg

http://www.posadareal.com/imgs/foto.broto.jpg

Sabiñánigo from Mount Santa Orosia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Sabi%C3%B1%C3%A1nigo_visto_desde_Santa_Orosia.jpg

Their traditional lifestyle in the Central Pyrenees disappeared along the 20th century. Many valleys and villages are now abandoned. As an ethnicity, it'll most likely be extinct in the next 20 years.

Urbanisation, migration into cities and change of lifestyle again, huh? Sounds a bit similar to the Sami story. Here I found an article on the current status of Aragonese:

http://www.aber.ac.uk/mercator/images/Bercero.pdf

Current situation

Martinez Ferrer (1995) estimates that there are close to 12,000 people who currently use Aragonese and some 18,000 who could be considered passive speakers of the language. Most of those who speak or are familiar with Aragonese, live in the Pyrenean valleys, amounting to a small percentage of the existing population in the Huesca province. His findings are based on the information provided by the only census in Aragon to include linguistic questions, which took place in 1981. All speakers of this language are bilingual and see proficiency in Spanish as a social advantage. This has created a diglosic bilingualism where Spanish, with its economic power and monopoly of the mass media, is the language of administration, culture and information. Whilst Aragonese has been displaced and its use is often limited to informal interactions among speakers. This is due to its fragmentation into local varieties and the misconception of incomprehensibility between the varieties spoken in the different valleys. Unfortunately, Aragonese speakers are steadily moving from a diglosic bilingualism towards a linguistic substitution (Nagore, 2002).
(...)
Young people who live in the villages of the area also practise it less, are unable to speak the language or don’t understand it at all. New blood is needed. Children and young people come across many difficulties in order to socialize in an atmosphere where Aragonese remains the focal point. Neither the media, nor the education system, seem to be facilitating this (Marcuello, 2001: 85).

As for the legal recognition the author states its not recognised as official or minority language!. Thus it cannot be taught at schools and is prone to become extinct... The author gives a very good outline of steps that should be done topreserve a language/ethnicity:

Official recognition and normativisation

Although it is relatively rare nowadays for a Western European language, even a minority one, not to be recognised officially, that is the case with Aragonese. For the use of Aragonese to be normalised it should first:

1. ...be recognized officially as a language by all the political institutions and political bodies. Otherwise, its development may continue to be hindered by the lack of funding and government support.

2. It needs to be taught under a regulated system of instruction and in all the schools of the locations where Aragonese is still known.

3. Its usage should be promoted and fostered increasingly in the media, administration and public signposts.

4. Assistance should also be given to literary production, music and video recordings, and to the broader “cultural industry” in the vernacular language. In order to achieve this, the political intervention that eases the way through political actions and legislative measures would follow if a social movement occurred.

This is obviously based on the Aragonese language situation, but can be easily adapted to any endangered language.

On the future of Aragonese language:

Conclusion

The normalisation of the language is the only possibility for survival of the Aragonese language in a modern society. The Spanish constitution grants some autonomous rights to the regions, such as their own governments responsible for health, economic planning, mass media and education. Consequently, the Aragonese language should be increasingly present in the administration, and in the streets, but above all, it should be introduced at all levels of education. For that to be achieved, it is paramount for the autonomous Aragonese government to have an interest and to devote the resources to protect the language. However, in the case of Aragonese there will be no normalisation without prior normativisation, therefore work must continue on the grammatical codification of the language in order to succeed.

We'll see what the Aragonese government will do. For now Aragonese language has UNESCO's "definitely endangered" status (2nd degree on a 4-degree scale).

Traditional Aragon bagpipes:

http://www.keithmusic.com/Images/Bagpipes/boto.JPG

Aragon Traditional dress:

Aragon traditional costume dates back to the eighteenth century resulting from an adaptation of seigniorial dress. There is not one single costume, but it has been adopted as representative in regional folklore that the man, known familiarly as baturro, mano or jotero, wear a collarless white shirt, cotton pantaloons tied at the knee and visible beneath the exterior cloth or wool breeches. This is topped off with a black cloth waistcoat and on the head is worn a handkerchief tied at the corners called cachirulo. Women have more varied forms of dress, but generally wear a blouse and white petticoats, a long skirt with an apron, white or black stockings, a doublet and shawl and a kerchief or bancal covering the head.

I reckon it has to look something like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3178/2961162621_d2b95beb75.jpg?v=1224619219

http://www.estampabaturra.com/images/jotero.jpg

http://armonia.rfactoreando.com/images/home_1_00.jpg

http://www.elpilar.info/componentes/joseluisgimeno.jpg

http://elpilar2007.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/screenshot045.jpg

http://62.15.226.148/tc/2008/09/08/9858908.jpg

Jarl

08-29-2009, 09:21 PM

Right, having covered the Fenno-Ugric family, I shall now proceed to the Balts. The Balts can be roughly divided into two major branches:

1. The East Baltic branch, which encompasses:

- Lithuanians (including Samogitians)
- Latvians (including Latgalians)
- Curonians (extinct)
- Semigalians (extinct)
- Selonians (extinct)
- Eastern Galindians and Dnieper-Dvina Balts (extinct)

2. The West Baltic branch:

- Prussians (including Scalvians and Galindians) - extinct
- Yotvingians (extinct)

Like with all major Indo-European branches, many Baltic off-shoots went extinct over history. Most during Medieval Ages. The Balts have never been very numerous, mainly due to the environment they inhabited. The primeval forest zone of Eastern Europe reduced the significance of agriculture. Although crops like rye were still the primary source of food, the old ways of survival - by fishing and hunting were significantly more important than in the warmer forest-steppe zone.

Here is the historical range of the Balto-Slavs, the so called Trzciniec horizon, encompassing mainly the Trzciniec and Sosnica cultures:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

According to Gimbutas:

http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/figure-3.jpg

and:

http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/figure-2.jpg

Baltic hydronyms:

http://www.combinedendeavor.areur.army.mil/pages/lithuania/for_old_browsers/Country/Fotos/zemelapis.gif

The map depicts probably the largest extent of the Baltic hydronyms. However, most of these overlapped with Slavic. Sometimes it is very difficult or impossible to tell which is which. During late Bronze Age and Iron Age a major differentiation of the Baltic cultures took place:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9096/mapawnb.png

The area shaded in green depicts the Baltic cultures of anitquity. The one next to the Baltic Sea is the Western Balt culture, next to it we got the culture of proto-Lithuanians and possibly Latvians. Finally we got the Dneper-Dvina Balts. As you can see the Baltic territory was originally quite large. It started shrinking during Medieval Ages.

The first major event that was the expansion of the Slavs Northwards. It pushed the part of the East Balts West. The rest, mainly the Dneper-Dvina Balts were assimilated. Early Medieval Ages, after Slavic expansion:

http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/figure-50.jpg

Most of the Balts occupied territories between the Vistula and Daugava basins. Isolated pockets of Eastern Balts still inhabited parts of the interior - mainly in the Dneper, Desna and Oka basins. Baltic settlement was always dispersed throughout the East European forests. After Slavic expansion any fragile continuity and contacts between neighbouring tribes probably ceased to exist.

Not much is known about these Baltic enclaves. Most of them probably did not survive for long. Not much is left either, aside from some Baltic substrata in some Belarussian dialects and seceral topo/hydronyms. The only major exception are the Eastern Galindians.

The Eastern Galindians (East Galindian: *Galindai, Russian: Goliadj, голядь, from Old East Slavic *Golędĭ) is an extinct East Baltic tribe, which from the 4th century lived in the basin of the Protva River, near the modern Russian towns of Mozhaysk, Vereya, and Borovsk. It is probable that the Eastern Galindians, as the bearers of the Moshchiny culture, also occupied all the Kaluga Oblast, until the Early East Slavs peopled the Moshchiny culture's area at the turn of 7th and 8th centuries[2].

The Russian chronicles first mention Eastern Galindians as Goliadj in 1058. Prince Yuri (George) the Long Arms (Yury Dolgoruky arranged a campaign against them in 1147, the year he founded Moscow in the land of the Galindians. After that, the Eastern Galindians are not mentioned in chronicles. Nevertheless, it's likely that they were not completely assimilated by Russians until the 15th (or 16th) century.[3].

There were people who still identified themselves as Goliads in the 19th century.[4]

The Eastern Galindians were probably the poeple of the Juchnov and Moshchiny culture. On Gimbutas' map they are just below Moscow. Over time they were completely russified, yet its interesting to note their legacy survived for centuries. Here they are marked in green as "Golyad":

http://wiki.verbix.com/uploads/Languages/Russia1000AD.gif

The land of the Eastern Galindians - Vereja:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Vereja-zarechje.jpg

Protva river:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Protva-obninsk.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/9894525.jpg

During Medieval Ages a whole branch of Western Balts (Prussian) went extinct. Here is a map with the original Prussian tribal territories (tribal names later gave name to provinces):

http://pilewski.pl/badania/mapa1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Prussian_clans_13th_century.png

After 1226, conquest of Prussia by the Teutonic Knights begun. The arrows indicate the directions of the Teutonic invasion.

http://pilewski.pl/badania/geneza_o_prusach04.jpg

With the aid of the German Emperor and the King of Bohemia, Teutonic Knights managed to conquer most of Prussia. Sambia and Skalova were the last provinces taken. There were several Prussian uprisings. Some of them had a character of pagan reaction. They were put down and Prussians were decimated and converted into serfs. New territories, conquered by the Teutonic Knights were settled by peasants from Germany, Poland and Czech.

The new settlers quickly absorbed and assimilated the remaining Prussians. Only in Sambia Prussian was spoken until XVII-XVIII century.

Because of the conquest of the Old Prussians by Germans, the Old Prussian language probably became extinct in the beginning of the 18th century with the decimation of the rural population by plagues and the assimilation of the nobility and the larger population with Germans or Lithuanians. However, translations of the Bible, Old Prussian poems, and some other texts survived and have enabled scholars to reconstruct the language.

The last Prussian uprising took place in 1525, in Sambia - the last Prussian stronghold. It had an anti-feudal character.

Prussians were reluctant to Christianity and, unlike their Eastern cousins, they failed to organise themselves into a modern, feudal society. There were many attempts to convert Prussians to Catholicism. One was taken by Boleslaw Chrobry, King of Poland. However, like all others, it failed. Decapitation of St Wojciech (Adalbertus):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Adalb.jpg

Prussians in XII century:

http://www.handsomemen.pl/UserFiles/Image/%C5%9Bredniowiecze,%20drzwi%20gnie%C5%BAnie%C5%84s kie.JPG

http://www.wigry.win.pl/puszcza/rys/balt.jpg

...here with a Christian missionary:

http://www.euroforum.pl/_album/46,400.jpg

King of Poland buys the remains of the martyr from the Prussians (on the left):

http://www.mikolaj-bydgoszcz.home.pl/kpg/kpg04.jpg

Hypothetical Prussian diety:

http://perkuns.fm.interia.pl/Galerie/bk01.jpg

Prussia - Sambian coast:

http://www.bursztynowyszlak.com/images/14.jpg

Ermland:

http://www.polskadrewniana.pl/imgfiles/Image/warmia-01.jpg

Wigry Lake:

http://www.via-baltica-no.webpark.pl/wigry.jpg

http://ryzowka.republika.pl/zdjecia/wigry7.jpg

Sniardwy:

http://www.samper.pl/wystawa_gea/obrazki/expopig-19.jpg

http://www.wartozwiedzic.pl/images/obiekty/78/1197289205.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Z1O1_L1V9KI/R0in3uvK-YI/AAAAAAAAAVI/B_qWVvYdAbE/s400/%C5%9Bniardwy2.jpg

Prussia (Mazury):

http://www.mazury.info.pl/familiant/domek_letniskowy/mazury.jpg

Storm:

http://kolumber.pl/upload/photos/0011/3267/434e79153b4ae40877195e4905721196_small.jpg

Forest:

http://images32.fotosik.pl/61/84138a7609868f04med.jpg

Reeds:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/6265239.jpg

http://img.interia.pl/wiadomosci/nimg/c/g/Mazury_cud_natury_3423798.jpg

Although Prussian language has been extinct for a long time, there are people and families who are aware of their Prussian roots. Some Prussians took refuge in Poland. There were over 450 noble families in Poland who used Prus I, Prus II and Prus III coat of arms. These three coats of arms had additional 20 variants. Some old Prussian families included and still include surnames like:

Białochowscy h. Prus 2; Glaznoccy h. Prus 3 odm.; Jabłonowscy h. Prus 3; Katlewscy h. Prus 2; Magdaleńscy h. Prus 3; Nogaccy h. Prus 3 odm.; Rosochaccy h. Prus 3; Rywoccy h. Prus 3 odm.; Stuccy h. Prus 3 odm.; Wichulscy h. Prus 3 odm.; Windaccy h. Prus 2, von Klauck , von Swellin, Skłodkowski, Nienałtwoski, Przestępowski,

Prus I

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/POL_COA_Prus.svg/200px-POL_COA_Prus.svg.png

Prus II

http://www.szczutowski.pl/portal/images/stories/szczutowski/herb_prus_ii.jpg

Prus III

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Herb_Prus_III.svg/200px-Herb_Prus_III.svg.png

One such Polish noble family with Old Prussian heritage - Pilewscy von Pfeilsdorf along with Mazruian Piegat family (also descending from Old Prussians) are actively engaged in the studies and revival of the Old Prussian language.

Pilewscy:

http://pilewski.pl/info/prusowie_pilewski01.jpg

http://pilewski.pl/history/03.jpg

http://pilewski.pl/history/06.jpg

http://pilewski.pl/history/07.jpg

Witold Pilewski, a veteran and Polish officer, was sentenced to death and murdered by the communists after WWII.

Their Prussian project has a website: http://www.pruthenia.strefa.pl/

On the contrary, the Piegat family descend from Mazurians who stayed in Poland after WWII. Few Mazurians and Ermlanders descend directly from Old Prussians. They are all completely germanised or polonised by now, yet some did not forget about their heritage. Majority of Mazurians left for Germany after WWII.

One such "commoner" is Gustaw Trosien, an Ermlander. He lives with his family in Warmia (Ermland) and descends from a Prussian tribe of Barts (inhabiting Bartia). His life story was once described in a popular Polish newspaper:

http://www.tygodnik.com.pl/numer/278850/jarosinski.html

He also featured in a documentary on Polish Mazurians. I reckon there are many more such families like Pilewscy, Trosien or Piegat on among the German Mazurians too.

Comte Arnau

08-29-2009, 09:28 PM

Wow, Jarl, you've made a sublime monographic on the Aragonese :thumb001:, I couldn't have done it better! :)

Are the Upper Aragonese very distinct from the Aragonese? Or are they pretty much the same?

It became distinct in the sense that it was the birthplace of the ethnic group and the only place where the language is nowadays spoken. Spanish (that is, Castilian) entered Aragon in the 15th century and the Aragonese have gradually become Castilianized, to the point that now only some people in the valleys and villages near the Pyrenees speak it natively. The lifestyle was also distinct in the sense that it was a more mountain lifestyle, but there are obviously many folk elements common or similar to the whole of Aragon.

There is also 4% Aragonese (about 50.000 people) in the eastern villages who have Catalan as their mother tongue.

So Castilian is pretty much Spanish?

Castilian=Spanish, yes. In fact, many Spaniards (and Latin Americans) don't call the language Spanish, but Castilian.

25-30 dialects is a lot for a language that is spoken by 10,000 to 30,000 people. Seems like every valley got its own dialect :) Can you speak any of these dialects, Boira?

It is actually quite normal in languages spoken in mountain areas, when the language has not a sociopolitical unification that helps as a standard reference. However, with a few exceptions, it is not true that they can't understand each other, if they want to.

Besides, that dialectal division is quite debatable. In my opinion, there are three main dialects (W, C and E), with several subdialects within each group. Anyway, only a few of them are still alive and kicking, most of them being practically dead.

It seems that Aragonese and Upper Aragonese are exactly the same language.

Yes. It's just that, since most of Aragon speaks Spanish, Aragonese can be interpreted too by some as the way the Aragonese speak Spanish (with a particular intonation and other elements), and that is different to the real Aragonese language, only spoken natively nowadays in the North.

.....1) The Pyrenean-Mozarabic group consists of two languages in two separate branches:

- Aragonese
- Mozarabic (extinct)

Never understood why they put those two languages together. Aragonese is a sort of bridge between Spanish and Catalan, slightly closer to the latter in many aspects, particularly before becoming so Castilianized.

*** Catalan is regarded as a transitional language between the Ibero-Romance and the Gallo-Romance groups.

To me, Aragonese too. But also Gascon and Occitan.

As for the legal recognition the author states its not recognised as official or minority language!. Thus it cannot be taught at schools and is prone to become extinct... The author gives a very good outline of steps that should be done topreserve a language/ethnicity:

This is obviously based on the Aragonese language situation, but can be easily adapted to any endangered language.

On the future of Aragonese language:

We'll see what the Aragonese government will do. For now Aragonese language has UNESCO's "definitely endangered" status (2nd degree on a 4-degree scale).

Indeed, a sad future, although much has been done since the 1970's. The Government of Aragon says every year that it'll be the year of the Law of Languages, which plans to make Aragonese and Catalan official where spoken. But that never happens. Politics, as usual, plays the rest.

Piparskeggr

08-29-2009, 09:51 PM

This has been a very fascinating thread, so many folk...

Pip

Jarl

08-29-2009, 10:01 PM

Actually Pilewski made an excellent website on his family and the Old Prussians. Some sites are available in English here:

http://www.pilewski.pl/

;) Perhaps its not a top-notch English, but its got some interesting information. Languages of Prussi in XIX century:

http://www.atlassen.info/atlassen/velhagen/andha07/picslarge/andha1921k045a.jpg

Red - German
Blue and Purple - Polish
Green - Lithuanian

Jarl

08-29-2009, 10:18 PM

Wow, Jarl, you've made a sublime monographic on the Aragonese :thumb001:, I couldn't have done it better! :)

Haha! Thank you very much! Im honoured. Not too bad for a complete amateur, huh? ;)

It became distinct in the sense that it was the birthplace of the ethnic group and the only place where the language is nowadays spoken. Spanish (that is, Castilian) entered Aragon in the 15th century and the Aragonese have gradually become Castilianized, to the point that now only some people in the valleys and villages near the Pyrenees speak it natively. The lifestyle was also distinct in the sense that it was a more mountain lifestyle, but there are obviously many folk elements common or similar to the whole of Aragon.

There is also 4% Aragonese (about 50.000 people) in the eastern villages who have Catalan as their mother tongue.

So was caused by the political domination of the Kingdom of Castilia? I know the pressures in XIXth century contributed at lot to the recession. Are these 50,000 Aragonese familiar with the Aragonese language? Or are they just aware of their identity but speak Spanish?

It is actually quite normal in languages spoken in mountain areas, when the language has not a sociopolitical unification that helps as a standard reference. However, with a few exceptions, it is not true that they can't understand each other, if they want to.

Besides, that dialectal division is quite debatable. In my opinion, there are three main dialects (W, C and E), with several subdialects within each group. Anyway, only a few of them are still alive and kicking, most of them being practically dead.

LIke that expert said - they would need normalisation if they were to introduce it into schools. It would be good if they could save anything.

Never understood why they put those two languages together. Aragonese is a sort of bridge between Spanish and Catalan, slightly closer to the latter in many aspects, particularly before becoming so Castilianized.

Right. So its pretty much in the Gallo-Iberian group? Id think so. After all Mozarabic is extinct for some 500 years or so.

To me, Aragonese too. But also Gascon and Occitan.

:) I dont know about the two other. But Aragonese makes sens if its so related to Catalan.

Indeed, a sad future, although much has been done since the 1970's. The Government of Aragon says every year that it'll be the year of the Law of Languages, which plans to make Aragonese and Catalan official where spoken. But that never happens. Politics, as usual, plays the rest.

I fear it might end badly. I dont think any radical measures will be taken in the nearest future. And 10 000 speakers will not sustain themselves long in a modern, urbanised environment. I hears another language - Extremaduran, related to the Asturian-Leonese is not recognised and under threat of extinction. Its got many more speakers than Aragonese though.

Hweinlant

08-29-2009, 11:27 PM

Comte Arnau

08-30-2009, 12:05 AM

So was caused by the political domination of the Kingdom of Castilia?

When Martin of Aragon, of the House of Barcelona, died without heirs, and a Castilian of the House of Trastamara managed to become King of Aragon, that meant the entrance of Castilian among the nobility of Aragon. Gradually, upper class people would adopt Castilian as the noble/valid language, Aragonese being reduced to the ordinary people, until it began to be considered a "dialect of peasants". It was wrongly regarded as a "dialect" indeed until a few decades ago.

Are these 50,000 Aragonese familiar with the Aragonese language?

Catalan speakers in Aragon usually feel Aragonese but strongly linked to Catalonia. Many of them go to Catalonia to study or work. They don't have much connection with Aragonese speakers, except for the region of Ribagorza, where there are even villages at which it's hard to say whether they speak Aragonese or Catalan or a mixture of both. Right in the northern top of Ribagorza, at the Benasque Valley, they speak a 50/50 Aragonese-Catalan mix, with also Gascon influence, although most Aragonese organizations consider Benasquese as an extreme variety of Eastern Aragonese.

Right. So its pretty much in the Gallo-Iberian group? Id think so.

:) I dont know about the two other. But Aragonese makes sens if its so related to Catalan.

Catalan is very close to Southern Languedocian, while Aragonese shows common traits with Bearnese Gascon. I'd say Aragonese, Catalan and Gascon-Occitan form a sort of group of their own, among Iberians and Gauls. Some have called that group Occitano-Romance, I prefer to call it Pyreno-Romance. :)

I fear it might end badly. I dont think any radical measures will be taken in the nearest future. And 10 000 speakers will not sustain themselves long in a modern, urbanised environment. I hears another language - Extremaduran, related to the Asturian-Leonese is not recognised and under threat of extinction. Its got many more speakers than Aragonese though.

Well, there are many young people all over Aragon learning it, but those who really should, the few children in the North, can't learn it in a proper way. Without generational continuity, the language is practically dead. Many things are being done, an unofficial Academy exists now, but measures for a real revival of its vigor are few or unpractical.

As for Extremaduran, I'd say only some old people in NW Extremadura maintain traits of ancient Leonese. Most of Extremaduran looks like Southern Spanish with Leonese residual influence, so I'm not sure at all whether considering it a language. Same thing with Murcian.

Jarl

08-30-2009, 08:31 AM

When Martin of Aragon, of the House of Barcelona, died without heirs, and a Castilian of the House of Trastamara managed to become King of Aragon, that meant the entrance of Castilian among the nobility of Aragon. Gradually, upper class people would adopt Castilian as the noble/valid language, Aragonese being reduced to the ordinary people, until it began to be considered a "dialect of peasants". It was wrongly regarded as a "dialect" indeed until a few decades ago.

Apparently Aragonese expanded with the reconquista up to the Murcia region. XV century was the golden age of Aragonese. However, then Murcia was ceded tothe king of Castilia by James I as a dowry for his wife. Then, Ferdinand I of Castilia was appointed new king of Aragon. The influence of his court encouraged the Aragonese elites to adopt Castilian. As a consequence, since XVI century Aragonese started to recede and became the language of commoners. Is it true that speaking in this language at school was forbidden during Franco's time?

Catalan speakers in Aragon usually feel Aragonese but strongly linked to Catalonia. Many of them go to Catalonia to study or work. They don't have much connection with Aragonese speakers, except for the region of Ribagorza, where there are even villages at which it's hard to say whether they speak Aragonese or Catalan or a mixture of both. Right in the northern top of Ribagorza, at the Benasque Valley, they speak a 50/50 Aragonese-Catalan mix, with also Gascon influence, although most Aragonese organizations consider Benasquese as an extreme variety of Eastern Aragonese.

What about the Basque substratum? Apparently Gascon has also a Basque substratum. It seems that Basques once covered a much larger territory.

Catalan is very close to Southern Languedocian, while Aragonese shows common traits with Bearnese Gascon. I'd say Aragonese, Catalan and Gascon-Occitan form a sort of group of their own, among Iberians and Gauls. Some have called that group Occitano-Romance, I prefer to call it Pyreno-Romance. :)

Right. Like transitional group between Iberian Romance languages and Gallo-Romance? Is Aragonese mutually intelligible with any other Romance language like Catalan or Gascon?

Well, there are many young people all over Aragon learning it, but those who really should, the few children in the North, can't learn it in a proper way. Without generational continuity, the language is practically dead. Many things are being done, an unofficial Academy exists now, but measures for a real revival of its vigor are few or unpractical.

Perhaps if the North is a very rural country, this passing down of Aragonese from one generation to the next one, will continue for the next decades. There will be always a fraction of people who will stay in their home village, inherit the farms from their parents and engage in the traditional lifestyle.

As for Extremaduran, I'd say only some old people in NW Extremadura maintain traits of ancient Leonese. Most of Extremaduran looks like Southern Spanish with Leonese residual influence, so I'm not sure at all whether considering it a language. Same thing with Murcian.

So pretty much it is not a separate language?

Jarl

08-30-2009, 09:03 AM

Erzyans (Ersä) are Volga-Finnic people, often called Mordvinians. Infact there are no such people as Mordvinians, there are Ersä and Mokshka people, whom are "bundled together" as Mordvinians. When Mongols attacked Europe it was Mordvinians whom fought them back. For 13 years they were able to stop the horde to arrive Europe. When they fell, Kiovan Rus', Viking Empire in the east was destroyed.

They are Finn's closest kin. There is still about 850,000 Morvins in Russia. But the language is not taught in urban schools and there is a lack of school textbooks:

Fighting Against Decline

Once the largest Uralic people within the Russian Federation, the Mordvins' numbers have reportedly fallen from 1,262,670 in 1970 to 1,153,516 in 1989, and by a further 300,000 over the past decade. At the time of the Russian Federation census of 2002, they accounted for just 31.9 percent of Mordovia's population of 888,766, while Russians accounted for 60.8 percent.

The Mordvins comprise two closely related ethnic groups, the Erzya and the Moksha, with the former outnumbering the latter by approximately two to one. The Erzya and Moksha languages, although related, are so different that speakers of one frequently have difficulty in understanding the other; Russian has become the lingua franca.

The Mordvins have for years been campaigning to reverse the steady erosion of their languages. At the Third Congress of the Mordvin People, which took place in Saransk, the Mordovian capital, in 1999, delegates were formally tasked by the republic's parliament with drafting legislation to promote the study of Mordvin in the republic's schools.

But six years later, the Erzya addressed an appeal to the 10th World Finno-Ugric Congress in Yoshkar-Ola in which they said neither Erzya nor Moksha is taught any longer in urban schools, while rural schools are being closed down. The recent appeal by the three journalists to Putin claimed that Erzya is "practically no longer taught," neither is there any textbook of the history of the Erzya people.

In those conditions, the forced closure of "Erzyan mastor," which has been published fortnightly since 1994 by the Mordovia Public Fund to Save the Erzya Language, could deal a death blow to the embattled Erzya language and thus, as the open letter signatories warn, to the Erzya's sense of national identity.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Article/1078419.html

This article was published after a closure of one of Mordvinian newspapers by the Russian authorities in 2007. Luckily there is still quite a few rural schools where children can learn in Mordvinian:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nn3xDTiL0PQC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=Mordvinian+language+at+schools&source=bl&ots=BYD3MsMdOg&sig=74wtqufLyYonSdiMblHWe2uHpwA&hl=pl&ei=vD-aSqWxLYa8mgPGpvziBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Mordvinian%20language%20at%20schools&f=false

Erza:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Erzya_women.jpg

Moksha:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Moksha_girls.jpg

On Modrvinian folk:

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/pubte/ee/usund/ingl/boyarkin.html

http://www.torama.ru/eng/img/finn1.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3342/nesterov.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Tyushtya_the_Great.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_85ACsZ2kALY/Sf700BqbZ0I/AAAAAAAADrA/F0683lUoxYI/s400/1787+Mordvin+man.jpg

http://mariuveren.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/erzyans.jpg

Mordvin and Mari women:

http://karakalpak.com/images/sawmordvin01.jpg

http://zubova-poliana.narod.ru/mordva.jpg

http://www.mari.ee/images/culture/mordva/Rasken_ozks.jpg

http://www.folk.ee/UserFiles/gallery/aida%20kontserdid_oktoober/__thumb_-2-Toorama3.jpg

Mordvinia at Volga and Oka: http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/mkyla.htm

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/hepix/maastikm.jpg

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/hepix/he_01.jpg

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/hepix/he_03.jpg

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/hepix/vanamaja.jpg

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/hepix/uusmaja.jpg

http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/mordva/hepix/pyhanurk.jpg

There are many good Estonian sites on Volga Finnics. Apparently some Estonian cultural organisations cooperate with Mordvnians promoting Finnic culture.

Mordvins in modern Russia:

http://www.verbix.com/imag/map_uralic_languages.gif

Marked red, between Kama, Oka and Volga rivers.

Erzyans (Ersä) are Volga-Finnic people, often called Mordvinians. Infact there are no such people as Mordvinians, there are Ersä and Mokshka people, whom are "bundled together" as Mordvinians. When Mongols attacked Europe it was Mordvinians whom fought them back. For 13 years they were able to stop the horde to arrive Europe. When they fell, Kiovan Rus', Viking Empire in the east was destroyed.

Come on Walkila! Mordvinians were a little nation and had still a tribal organisation, while Kievan Rus was a modern, feudal state. Two different worlds. The main resistance against the Mongols was put up by the Ruthenian dukes and Kipchak/Cuman kagans. Kievan Rus was no Viking Empire either. The Varangians, who were ethnically quite a mixed bunch anyway, blended smoothly into the Ruthenian elites within a few generations.

Jarl

08-30-2009, 01:33 PM

Returning back to the Balts and the Prussians. Although some of them escaped into Poland, most remained within the Teutonic Order state. Those in the South blended into Mazurians, those in the North became germanised.

Sambia was particularly densly populated by old Prussians and some re-settled Yotvingians. A map showing the extent of the Sambian uprising in XVIth century (marked by gree oblique lines):

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6874/sambia.jpg

I guess many German Prussian families should descend from these Old Prussians. On the other hand, most Yotvingians fled into the Great Duchy of Lithuania who annexed most of their former tribal territory - Sudovia. After 1422 entire Sudovia was in Lithuanian hands. Most of these Yotvingians inhabited Podlasie/Podlahia and became russified and polonised over time. There are several Podlahian villages with Yotvingian names and some Yotvingian surnames are fairly frequent among the locals.

Comte Arnau

08-30-2009, 07:32 PM

Is it true that speaking in this language at school was forbidden during Franco's time?

Unlike with Catalan or Basque, Aragonese was not regarded as a language, but as a 'coarse way of speaking', so they didn't even bother to prohibit it. What they did was even worse, IMO. They laughed at it, provoking shame in children coming from the villages, to the point they'll refuse it for life. At some schools, the ruler would be used for those who insisted on using 'old' or 'incorrect' forms. For instance, you could be punished if you said farina (flour) instead of harina. The funny thing was that farine was correct and not coarse when you studied French. :)

What about the Basque substratum? Apparently Gascon has also a Basque substratum. It seems that Basques once covered a much larger territory.

Yep, you're totally right. Basque language(s) reached Andorra, so you can find substratum all over the zone, specially in toponimy.

Is Aragonese mutually intelligible with any other Romance language like Catalan or Gascon?

They're clearly different languages, but there's indeed a certain degree of mutual intelligibility, particularly in neighbor areas. Eastern Aragonese and North-Western Catalan form a continuum, and while Aragonese and Gascon were separated by the Pyrenees, during centuries shepherds from both sides communicated in their own languages, and there are many loanwords between both languages.

Perhaps if the North is a very rural country, this passing down of Aragonese from one generation to the next one, will continue for the next decades. There will be always a fraction of people who will stay in their home village, inherit the farms from their parents and engage in the traditional lifestyle.

The problem is, it's not that rural any more, but more and more depopulated, except for the important towns, where everybody already speaks Spanish. There are ski resorts and many second residences of Aragonese from the capital. Some abandoned villages are being repopulated, but by foreigners who speak Spanish and can't even imagine a different language was spoken there. I'm afraid the generational level has really passed the threshold, or is about to. Only radical fast measures could prevent it from happening.

So pretty much it is not a separate language?

Extremaduran? IMO, no, unless we refer to some particular speech of NW Extremadura, which could be a bit more Leonese than Spanish. But take into account that I'm strict with it, in the sense that to me Romance languages are those whose historical grammar and core lexicon go back to Latin.

Jarl

08-30-2009, 08:17 PM

Thats a rather pesimistic view... You said you can speak this language yourself. Are you teaching it or will you teach it your children?

Loki

08-30-2009, 08:43 PM

Comte Arnau

08-30-2009, 08:46 PM

Thats a rather pesimistic view... You said you can speak this language yourself. Are you teaching it or will you teach it your children?

Well, it is not just a matter of individual transmission, specially when you're not living in the territory. I myself can't practice it much. But when the language has not a territorial officiality, it's not taught at school except in voluntarily classes after schooltime, there are no local significative media... even if there was a baby boom again (very very unlikely), chances are there wouldn't be room for social development of it.

The problem here is that the survival depends on many factors, and it includes political decentralization of Aragon, a territory where the capital (Saragossa) is home to more than half of the Aragonese. Only population revival, officiality and dignification of the language could guarantee the survival, that is why I seem so pessimistic. Yet, and paradoxically, it is in a better situation than it's ever been in many aspects. For instance, more than 10 books are published every year, and that's a very high number when you know that there are fewer than 100 writers in the language.

Jarl

08-30-2009, 08:52 PM

It is to be debated whether these Uralic people can be considered to be "European", though. Many of them have never lived in Europe. The only notable exceptions can be made for Finns, Estonians, Hungarians and some Finnic peoples who live in far Western Russia. These have assimilated into European cultures / gene pools and lived on European soil. Can the Udmurts and Mari really be considered to be "European"?

Its an interesting question! If we consider Russians European, why shouldnt we consider Mordvinians?

By the way I noticed, that the more you move Northwards the more Mongoloid these tribes appear. It is somewhat striking, particularly that some posters implied Volga Finns and Ugrics mixed heavily with Turkics. However, Turkic nomads kept to the steppe or forest steppe zone, and were never interested in conquering wild boreal forests. Yet it is precisely the population of these boreal forests that looks more Mongoloid!

If you look at Mordvinians - they represent a pretty much East European type with occasional Asiatic features. However their more Northern neighbours - the Mari and the Udmurts appear remarkably more Eastern. Further to the North, the Permiaks and Ugrics and tundra-dwelling Komi look very Asiatic. What is more interesting Mordvinians are heavily mixed with Slavs and have highest R1a frequency out of them all, while other Uralic tribes in the Volga-Ural region tribes have 70-95% N frequency, which would suggest they retained more of their original phenotype.

Hors

08-30-2009, 10:59 PM

What is more interesting Mordvinians are heavily mixed with Slavs and have highest R1a frequency out of them all

It were rather Balts or even Iranians, but not Slavs.

Loki

08-30-2009, 11:17 PM

Its an interesting question! If we consider Russians European, why shouldnt we consider Mordvinians?

Because Russians had their ethnogenesis in Europe (Pripet Marshes for Slavs?), and share a common bond with other Slavs -- and also are Indo-European in origin. Mordvinians hadn't/aren't.

Treffie

08-30-2009, 11:43 PM

Because Russians had their ethnogenesis in Europe (Pripet Marshes for Slavs?), and share a common bond with other Slavs -- and also are Indo-European in origin. Mordvinians hadn't/aren't.

It's a tricky one isn't it? As Mordvins are the descendants of Volga Finns, can we actually call them European? They've been in the area for over 2000 years living alongside the Slavic tribes so interbreeding must have occurred in huge amounts. Or maybe it's just down to culture and linguistics that makes them non-European.

Posted by Hors
It were rather Balts or even Iranians, but not Slavs.

Why not Slavs?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Muromian-map.png/588px-Muromian-map.png

Hors

08-31-2009, 08:37 AM

Why not Slavs?

The Erzja have a lot of Baltic loan words in their language. Plus elements of Baltic culture. They have evidently assimilated some Balts living in the region long before Slavs moved in.

PS. The Erzja have only up to 20% of N3.

Jarl

08-31-2009, 08:43 AM

Why not Slavs?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Muromian-map.png/588px-Muromian-map.png

I understand Hors. This is the map after Slavic expansion in VI th century. Before that Mordvinians bordered on East Balts - like the Galindians from vicinity of Moscow. They had Balts to the West. Iranians to the South and endless taiga inhabited by other FUs to the North and East.

But you are probably correct on this as well. First of all, little communities of Slavs were present near Volga and Oka since II century AD. These are the so called Slavkino, Lbischi and Imenkovo groups. They were founded by migrants from the Dniestr region. Still, once the Slavs expanded into East - the Wiatichi, Kirwichi and Radimichi. They probably did intermingle with both Balts and FUs.

Having presented the Erza/Moksha. I will post some of their Northen neighbours Khanty:

http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1076153676877.jpeg

http://www.siberiagym.com/Mothers-and-daughters.jpg

Komi:

http://www.reachingcriticalwill.org/images/komi.jpg

And furtherst to the North - the Nenets:

http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/POD/n/nenets-schoolboys-516997-sw.jpg

It's a tricky one isn't it? As Mordvins are the descendants of Volga Finns, can we actually call them European? They've been in the area for over 2000 years living alongside the Slavic tribes so interbreeding must have occurred in huge amounts. Or maybe it's just down to culture and linguistics that makes them non-European.

I think the issue is complex. Russians in the East mixed heavily with FUs and Turkics. Lenin being a prime example of this vortex. Besides, Baltic Finns are also off-shoots of the same Volga Finnic family... thats why Estonians established these cultural contacts with the Mordvinians...

Hors

08-31-2009, 10:06 AM

First of all, little communities of Slavs were present near Volga and Oka since II century AD. These are the so called Slavkino, Lbischi and Imenkovo groups. They were founded by migrants from the Dniestr region.

From the Dnieper-Don country. And the groups in question were not small. But they resided very far from the Erzja, and separated by the Steppe.

I think the issue is complex. Russians in the East mixed heavily with FUs and Turkics.

It was rather late Russianization of Orthodox FUs.

Lenin being a prime example of this vortex.

A Jewish-Kalmyk mutt is a prime example of the interbreeding between Russians and FUs?!

Loki

08-31-2009, 10:23 AM

And furtherst to the North - the Nenets:

http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/POD/n/nenets-schoolboys-516997-sw.jpg

They just look Chinese to me. :shrug:

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 10:32 AM

Nenets (-Samoyeds) are mainly arctic mongoloids. Unlike Khanties and Mansis Nenets actually do live in Europe. Khanty and Mansi do not live in Europe but in Western Siberia. There is some whopping 40.000 Nenets on the planet earth.

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 10:39 AM

It's a tricky one isn't it? As Mordvins are the descendants of Volga Finns, can we actually call them European? They've been in the area for over 2000 years living alongside the Slavic tribes so interbreeding must have occurred in huge amounts. Or maybe it's just down to culture and linguistics that makes them non-European.

Actually, general linguistic theory is that Finno-Ugric languages originate pretty much on the spot where the Volga-Finnics live. That would mean that there has been continuous FU habitation at the region at least 4-6kya. Proto-IE beeing spoken somewhat south from them. If we are to exclude Volga-Finnics from Europe due to language then bye bye IE-speakers, you are not European either :)

Treffie

08-31-2009, 10:42 AM

Actually, general linguistic theory is that Finno-Ugric languages originate pretty much on the spot where the Volga-Finnics live. That would mean that there has been continuous FU habitation at the region at least 4-6kya. Proto-IE beeing spoken somewhat south from them. If we are to exclude Volga-Finnics from Europe due to language then bye bye IE-speakers, you are not European either :)

Yes, you've got a really good point there. :thumbup:

Nodens

08-31-2009, 04:42 PM

It all comes down to where you want to draw the line. While the Samoyeds and Ob Ugrans are clearly of an Asiatic type, most Finno-Permics are of an essentially European type and have had a long history of contact and interaction with Balts, Slavs and European Iranics. Since we seem to have recognized the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians as European, I think the most equitable conclusion is that all Baltic and Volga Finns, as well as Permics and Hungarians, fall in the far side of the Eastern European spectrum while the Samoyeds and Ob Ugrans fall in the Siberian spectrum (but may be considered to be part of the European geopolitical sphere).

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 05:07 PM

Since we seem to have recognized the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians as European, I think the most equitable conclusion is that all Baltic and Volga Finns, as well as Permics and Hungarians, fall in the far side of the Eastern European spectrum while the Samoyeds and Ob Ugrans fall in the Siberian spectrum (but may be considered to be part of the European geopolitical sphere).

There is nothing particulary Eastern European at Baltic-Finns, rather Northern. East Europe is imo, Slavic domain of Orthodox faith(Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria etc). Volga-Finnics obviously are part of this group, due to their history and geographical location. Hungarians are rather Central European, or East Central European.

Anyway, Ob Ugrics and Samoyeds are mainly of North Asian origins. It could be said that Ob Ugrics emigrated from East Europe to Siberia and prolly originally were not that mongoloid but intensive admixing with especially Samoyeds have made them what they are now. I wouldnt consider neither Ob Ugrics or Samoyeds as European people at all. Only connection they have to Europe is that they live in Russia, but Russia hardly is typical European country, considering it borders North Korea.

Jarl

08-31-2009, 06:02 PM

There is nothing particulary Eastern European at Baltic-Finns, rather Northern. East Europe is imo, Slavic domain of Orthodox faith(Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria etc). Volga-Finnics obviously are part of this group, due to their history and geographical location. Hungarians are rather Central European, or East Central European.

Anyway, Ob Ugrics and Samoyeds are mainly of North Asian origins. It could be said that Ob Ugrics emigrated from East Europe to Siberia and prolly originally were not that mongoloid but intensive admixing with especially Samoyeds have made them what they are now. I wouldnt consider neither Ob Ugrics or Samoyeds as European people at all. Only connection they have to Europe is that they live in Russia, but Russia hardly is typical European country, considering it borders North Korea.

Or the other way round :) They stayed in their Urheimat, and its the Volga Vinns who migrated West. We canno't resolve this with 100% certainty, yet Volga Finns are essentially European, although Cheremis look more Eastern than Mordvinians.

Hors

08-31-2009, 06:17 PM

People who has experience of living among Volga Finnics say they're squalid, dumb and sorrowful. And essentially UN-European.

Loki

08-31-2009, 07:46 PM

Or the other way round :) They stayed in their Urheimat, and its the Volga Vinns who migrated West. We canno't resolve this with 100% certainty, yet Volga Finns are essentially European, although Cheremis look more Eastern than Mordvinians.

The major geographical races of mankind do not have definite borders of demarcation. It is possible that, in some of these aforementioned groups, some sort of transitional phase between Europid and Mongolid can be detected. And beyond the Urals, this trend continues and becomes even more visible among Turkic peoples -- some of whom also left traces among modern European nations.

Jarl

08-31-2009, 07:53 PM

The major geographical races of mankind do not have definite borders of demarcation. It is possible that, in some of these aforementioned groups, some sort of transitional phase between Europid and Mongolid can be detected.

Aleksiejew wrote about the proto-morphic character of some East Europeans and UFs in particular. I think it is no coincidence that out of all European nations Finns resmble the Paleolithic hunters most... However, Baltic Finns have a substantial Central European ancestry, which the Ob-Ugrians, Permiaks or Samoyed do not have. The slight Asiatic influence must have been present there for millenia. If Eskimoids (Chancelade) reached Western Europe in Paleolithic then they most certainly reached Ural too. After all this high frequency of N suggests the proto-Uralics were originally a Siberian folk. They do have some Altaic markers yet overall they have a distinct ancestry. Yet, in comparison with R and Q bearing populations, their ancestors must have more to the East, near their O-carrying relatives. This, together with a very Northern habitat of most Uralics, inclines me to believe, their Asiatic looks are not necessarily a result of some later intermixing with Altaic or Siberian tribes. To me it looks like a steady gradation. One hypothesis is that those Uralics which remained in their heimat in Siberia retained their original looks, while those that crossed into Europe and mixed with European Paleolithic populations changed. Another hypothesis is that it occured the other way round. However, the weakest point of the second hypothesis is the very high presence of N1c and N1b among most Uralics.

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 07:54 PM

Or the other way round :) They stayed in their Urheimat, and its the Volga Vinns who migrated West. We canno't resolve this with 100% certainty, yet Volga Finns are essentially European, although Cheremis look more Eastern than Mordvinians.

1. Ob Ugrics are Ugrics, not Finnics
2. They really did migrate from NE Europe to Siberia, not so long time ago.
3. There is Mansi toponomy in Komi-republic which is located at extreme Northeast Europe

Mari (Chremiss) people are strange mix. Some of them look like "Russians", some of them have clear Asiatic features, some of them look like that dude Ahmajinedad. Possibly due Iranic/Turkic influences at the region. Very mixed bunch.

Jarl

08-31-2009, 08:03 PM

1. Ob Ugrics are Ugrics, not Finnics
2. They really did migrate from NE Europe to Siberia, not so long time ago.
3. There is Mansi toponomy in Komi-republic which is located at extreme Northeast Europe

Mari (Chremiss) people are strange mix. Some of them look like "Russians", some of them have clear Asiatic features, some of them look like that dude Ahmajinedad. Possibly due Iranic/Turkic influences at the region. Very mixed bunch.

Ok... but they have predominantly Siberian ancestry in the male line (I did not study mtDNA). So it looks something like that:

1. Europe............Ural............<---- proto-FUs....... Siberia....... Samoyeds

2. Europe......Ugrics/ Finnics........... Ural..................Samoyeds

3. Europe......<----Finns and Samis.....Volga Finns and Komi.....Mansi---->....Ural........Samoyeds

4. Baltic Finns...... Volga Finns.... Komi...... Ural..... Mansi..... Samoyeds

Id like to note that if proto-FU split into Finnics and Ugrics in Volga, then the long isolated Komi must have remained where they currently are for millenia. Yet they do not look particularly European.

Loki

08-31-2009, 08:18 PM

Mari (Chremiss) people are strange mix. Some of them look like "Russians", some of them have clear Asiatic features, some of them look like that dude Ahmajinedad. Possibly due Iranic/Turkic influences at the region. Very mixed bunch.

Aren't the Maris rather homogenous genetically? I think I saw some data, can't remember where now.

Jarl

08-31-2009, 08:27 PM

Aren't the Maris rather homogenous genetically? I think I saw some data, can't remember where now.

Mari are about 50:50 N versus R1a - so they are pretty mixed - just like Mordvinians. But Udmurts and Khanty got about 75-80% N or more... and their mtDNA is 46% H and HV - both common in Europe, Asia and even N.Africa... 25% West Asian U and 20% Near Eastern T, 40% Asian M, C, Z, D.

That still makes at least 80% Siberian ancestry in the male line and 40% in the female line. But its worthy to note, they migrated into Europe, where they had to absorb some local blood, and back again.

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 08:38 PM

If Eskimoids (Chancelade) reached Western Europe in Paleolithic then they most certainly reached Ural too.

Infact crania of Cromagnon-1 was considered as Mongoloid for very long time.

their Asiatic looks are not necessarily a result of some later intermixing with Altaic or Siberian tribes.... while those that crossed into Europe and mixed with European Paleolithic populations changed.

There really is no need to speculate on a matter that is studied allready.

http://i32.tinypic.com/ehmcll.jpg
http://i26.tinypic.com/2ymhp94.jpg

The fi rst principal component (PC 1) accounts for 42 % of the total variance
(Table 3, Fig. 2, 3). It reveals the contrast between Caucasoids and Mongoloids
and arranges the groups along the west-to-east axis

Caucasoids = pooled modern EE samples, Finns = pooled Volga-Finnics with some actual Finnish samples thrown in.

Source: NONMETRIC TRAITS IN EARLY IRON AGE CRANIAL SERIES
FROM WESTERN AND SOUTHERN SIBERIA

All Europoids (modern) and those long dead Siberian Europoids (like Tagars and Karasuks) are neatly aligned into one group and Mongoloids into another. Finnics simply dont have "Central European" admix but fundamentaly different genetic origins than Ob Ugrics/Samoyeds. There howver may have been some "genetical isolated proto-geogrpahical-Uralian" population thousends of years ago. They could be partial ancestors of modern day FInnics (incl. Baltic-Finns), it is stupid however to say that they would be somehow the ultimate source population for modern Balto-Fennics as Balto-Fennics sprung from the very same West Eurasian mix'n'go populations as rest of the West Eurasian bunch does.

Sargat, whom are generally considered as Ugrics (before they got mixed with Mongoloids much much later):

"Between the 7th century BC
and the 3rd century AD, nomads and semi-nomadic herders,
now known as the Sargat Culture, occupied the forest, foreststeppes,
and steppes east of the Ural Mountains"

http://i42.tinypic.com/sos4z9.jpg

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 08:51 PM

Id like to note that if proto-FU split into Finnics and Ugrics in Volga, then the long isolated Komi must have remained where they currently are for millenia. Yet they do not look particularly European.

Where do you get the idea that Komi dont look European :confused:

There are apparently Komi's whom are seriously mixed with Nenets/Khants etc but as overall group they are Europoids. Thats like saying Poles are not exactly European looking if some Polish dude has Thai wife and offspring from her...

Jarl

08-31-2009, 09:09 PM

Where do you get the idea that Komi dont look European :confused:

There are apparently Komi's whom are seriously mixed with Nenets/Khants etc but as overall group they are Europoids. Thats like saying Poles are not exactly European looking if some Polish dude has Thai wife and offspring from her...

Right! I confused Komis with Nenets! Sorry dude! Komis are overall more European-looking than Asian-looking. So which nation recapitulates the proto-Uralic looks best according to you?

Hweinlant

08-31-2009, 09:28 PM

Right! I confused Komis with Nenets! Sorry dude! Komis are overall more European-looking than Asian-looking. So which nation recapitulates the proto-Uralic looks best according to you?

What do you think ? Western Finnish übernordids ofcource :p:rolleyes:

Propably the correct answer is long dead Proto-Uralic speaking guys. Long dead PFU's prolly looked not much diffefrent from long dead PIE speakers.

Hweinlant

09-01-2009, 09:38 PM

This is propably closest thing to Proto-Finno-Ugrics there is. Man from Volosovo culture (central northern part of European Russia), lived some 4-5kya ago. Reconstruction provided by member:aeon @ AF:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/Volosovo_13.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/Volosovo_14.jpg

Another possible P-FU culture would be Upper Volga-culture (bit older date) but the people hardly looked that different. This guy is rather forefather of Volga-Finnic and only partially Balto-Fennics as we have another leg physically in the NW Europe.

Eastern component (HG N1C) @ BF's is far more likely the Corded Ware folks of Fatyanovo. They looked like this (thanks to aeon again):

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/Fatyanovo_3.jpg

Actually allready look like many modern BF's. Perhaps more on the Estonian side than Finnish side even tho' Corded look is very typical in Finland too. Like allready C.S Coon find out:

http://www.geocities.com/j_ferriman/p27/corded_finland.jpg

esaima

09-02-2009, 10:16 PM

Actually allready look like many modern BF's. Perhaps more on the Estonian side than Finnish side even tho' Corded look is very typical in Finland too. Like allready C.S Coon find out:

http://www.geocities.com/j_ferriman/p27/corded_finland.jpg[/QUOTE]

I think the Estonians are not so dolichocephalic.
Also I dont think there exists some kind of “balto-finnic look”...BF is a linguistical term. Sometimes it takes me just 0.3 secs to recognise Finnish person in the streets of Tallinn. I just think the Finns look like Finns and the estonians look like the... Estonians.
Its tricky to differentiate Estonians from the Latvians by face. From what I've heard, Estonia is closer in genetically to Latvians and Lithuanians.

Jarl

09-03-2009, 08:58 AM

This is propably closest thing to Proto-Finno-Ugrics there is. Man from Volosovo culture (central northern part of European Russia), lived some 4-5kya ago. Reconstruction provided by member:aeon @ AF:

Proto Finnics, after their migration and dfferentiation, most certainly. However, what about proto-FUs or proto-Uralics? Has all Ugric tribes been living where they are now? I think they did. Here is an old XVIth century map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Herberstein-Moscovia-NE.png

The Yugra (Iuhra) are at the Ob river. I think the Ugric urheimat was in West Siberia. Here is a passage about the migration of Hungarians:

Yugra is also considered to be the place of origin of the Hungarians (the Magyar Oshaza). It is thought that the name Hungary is a variety of the name Yugra. (The Hungarians also were known in several languages under the name of Ugri, and are still known under this name in Ukrainian). The Hungarian language is also the closest linguistic relative of Khanty and Mansi. It is considered that Hungarians moved from Yugra to the west, first settling on the western side of the Urals, in the region known as Magna Hungaria. Then they moved further to the west, to the region of Levedia (present-day east Ukraine),then to the region of Etelköz (present-day west Ukraine), finally reaching the Carpathian Basin in the 9th centur.

I have also read an interesting theory, which I can provide more details of if you want to. It says that proto-Samoyeds descended from Altai Mountains. There are apparently turkified Samoyedic people living in Siberia.

Hweinlant

09-04-2009, 02:23 PM

Proto Finnics, after their migration and dfferentiation, most certainly. However, what about proto-FUs or proto-Uralics?

Volosovo culture is proto-FU. Little bit to east from Volosovo(and about millenia back in time) was Lyalovo-culture, about where Moscow now stands. That was most likely Proto-Uralic speaking bunch, Southeast from them was Khvalynsk-culture, about where Russian city of Samara stands, was the proto-IE speaking bunch. Khvalynsk-culture later was absorbed or evolved into Yamna culture.

Has all Ugric tribes been living where they are now? I think they did. Here is an old XVIth century map:

Dont you think Moscovian State existed little bit later than proto-Ugrics :confused: :eek:

The Yugra (Iuhra) are at the Ob river. I think the Ugric urheimat was in West Siberia. Here is a passage about the migration of Hungarians:

See the Sargat reconstructions from page back. They are early Ugrics. Ugric languages were spoken west and east of Urals. Sargats are precisely "Proto-Magyars" , horse based Forest-Steppe Nomads. Ancestors of modern Ob Ubrics (at least the Mansi) lived on the western side of Urals and only moved into western Siberia after bloody conflicts with the Komi-people. This is pretty well described in their folklore.

I have also read an interesting theory, which I can provide more details of if you want to. It says that proto-Samoyeds descended from Altai Mountains. There are apparently turkified Samoyedic people living in Siberia.

Proto-Samoyedic language splitted off from proto-Uralic. Modern Samoyedic speakers are excellent example of situation where there is major discrepancy between genes and language. Some have argued that Samoyeds have gone through langauge change (there are substrata elements from many different paleo-Siberian languages in Samoyedic family. I use to think so too, I've changed my view on the matter. They rather have changed their genes and kept the language. Substrata elements in Samoyedic languages imo are proof for that, they simply have absorbed non-Samoyedic speakers.

Samoyedic speakers wondered to east, all the way to Mongolia. Then thousend years ago some of them returned to Europe as Nenets-people, with huge reindeer stocks. Lot of them certainly have been Turkified over the millenias.

Okunev culture of South Siberia is often dubbed as "Proto-Samoyedic", that culture has hallmarks of west Siberian cultures and cultures of east Siberian "Baikalian group", whom were anthropologically of Tungusic type.

Jarl

09-04-2009, 02:44 PM

Back to the Old Prussians. During the conquest some of them, particularly the nobles, fled to Poland to avoid serfdom. Most of them settled in Masovia, which was by then a separate province, ruled by a branch of the Piast dynasty. Dukes of Masovia were liberal and readily acccepted all newcomers, with whom they could settle the desolate forests of their domain.

However most Prussians fled to neighbouring Lithuania - which was also a pagan country at that time. In fact, it was the last pagan country in Europe. The Prussians and the Lithuanians were relatively close culturally and linguistically. Particularly the Yotvingians (Jaćwingowie), the Easternmost Prussian tribe inhabiting Sudowia sought refuge in Lithuania. Some Yotvingian chieftains like Skomand reached a compromise with they Teutons and settled in Teutonic Order's territory where they were granted titles and land. Some, like Skrudo, left for Lithuania.

http://www.zgapa.pl/zgapedia/data_pictures/_uploads_wiki/p/Plemiona_pruskie.png

Sudowia, was the Prussian largest province and also a very forested and hilly one. It was never really conquered by the Teutons, apart from the Northernmost tip around the Niemen river. Nonetheless, frequent raids decimated Yotvingian population who fled East into Lithuania. Most were given land and settled in several villages in Belarus - which, formerly part of Rus, had been then already conquered by the Lithuanians. They founded settlements particularly in Lithuanian Daynova and near Grodno/Hrodna and Wołkowysk. After union of Lithuania and Poland, they converted to Catholicism and participated in re-settlement of Sudowia along with settlers from Lithuania, Belarus and Poland. They founded several villages in Northern Podlachia. Some of them bear the name of "Jaćwież" or "Jatwieź". There are several Podlachian surnames with Yotvingian roots.

Most of Prussia, after the conquest, was settled with Germans and Masovian Poles:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3645/prusy.png

Black arrows - Germans. White arrows - Poles.

Yotvingia/Sudowia:

http://img.naszemiasto.pl/grafika2/nowy/58/360_659424_1_d_1274.jpg

http://www.interklasa.pl/portal/dokumenty/m022/img/biebrza_0006_1.jpg

http://www.ws.aplus.pl/tapety/biebrza.jpg

http://www.zagrodapolska.pl/images/biebrza1.jpg

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/627/fkraj2b0jm.jpg

http://jodoziory.w.interia.pl/images/krajobraz.jpg

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3545/szurpilygorazamkowayy8.jpg

http://www.scubahancza.com.pl/img/zdjecia/jezioro3.jpg

http://www.wrotapodlasia.pl/NR/rdonlyres/0CCB755B-E20A-4519-A6F9-DAB4F41C93B9/23653/SPK.JPG

Part of Yotvingia is called Suwalszczyzna - and has traditionally been divided into Lithuania and Podlachia.

http://www.bankier.pl/static/att/59000/1940694_SuwalskiPN.jpg

http://againess.wdfiles.com/local--files/dolina-rospudy/dolina-rospudy-z-lotu-ptaka.jpg

http://www.suwalszczyzna.pl/grafiki/foto/21g.jpg

In former Jaćwież there is one of Poland's biggest greatforests - Puszcza Augostowska (named after Augostowo - a town where Polish king Sigismund August would have his hunting lodge).

Eagle Owl from Puszcza Augustowska:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4330/0dlgvqxuxb796it2axstrhz.jpg

Podlachian Wolf (there are about 168 of them in Suwalszczyzna):

http://www.pwsos.pl/prace/jakubiakm/wilk.jpg

"Orzesznica" (difficult to pronounce :P):

http://www.zielonewrota.pl/artykuly/panel10/kat74/pliki/fauna_orzesz_PT.jpg

Lynxes:

http://www.zielonewrota.pl/artykuly/panel10/kat74/pliki/Rysiek3_PT.jpg

http://reklama.biolog.pl/img/i365/rysie,1.jpg/img]

More of Sudovia:

[img]http://fotomost.acn.waw.pl/images/Suwals.%20color/SPKHancza%20w%20Blaskowiznie.jpg

http://fotomost.acn.waw.pl/images/Suwals.%20color/WPK%20-%20Klasztor%20wigierski%20X%201999.jpg

http://fotomost.acn.waw.pl/images/Suwals.%20color/WPK%20Klasztor%20III%201998%20r.jpg

http://fotomost.acn.waw.pl/images/Suwals.%20color/SPK%20-%20Jezioro%20Gulbin%20X%201997.jpg

http://fotomost.acn.waw.pl/images/Suwals.%20color/Jezioro%20Hancza%20we%20mgle.jpg

http://marcinimatylda.blox.pl/resource/12_07_07_zemaitkiemis_rudamina_11.jpg

http://marcinimatylda.blox.pl/resource/07_30_06_dawny_folwark_Sudawskie_5.jpg

Elk:

http://www.marek_biebrza.republika.pl/foto30/4.jpg

Fog:

http://www.carskitrakt.pl/galeria/lato/mgla.jpg

Tarpans - wild horses of Sudowia:

http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/6623/paustkaika.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/6623/tarpan.jpg

Old Prussians used various domesticated breeds of these sturdy little horses.

Old Prussians:

http://www.heimatkreis-neumark.de/Pruss.jpg

http://www.timediver.de/img/geschichte/mh_Prussen_Prussenkrieg2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/a2/Rautentanz.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/f/fd/Bockheiligung.jpg

Old Prussians armed with spears and bows fighting the Teutons:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/4/43/Wandfries.jpg

Not only certain Podlachians, but also some Ermlanders and Mazurians, along with East Prussian Oberland Germans and Lithuanians descend from the Old Prussians. Some seem to be genuinely aware of their Baltic roots. German wiki states:

Prusai heute

Die Prußen wurden bereits unter dem Ritterorden und den deutschen Einwanderern zwangsweise assimiliert und konnten ihre eigene Kultur jahrhundertelang nur versteckt leben. Um die prußische Geschichte, Kultur und Religion zu pflegen und in der Öffentlichkeit darzustellen, haben sich die in Deutschland lebenden Prußen in der 1980 gegründeten „Arbeitsgemeinschaft Tolkemita e.V.“ zusammengeschlossen. Der Name kommt aus der prußischen Sprache und bedeutet „Makler, Übersetzer, Dolmetscher“. [13] Ein Ziel des Vereins ist die Anerkennung des Status als ethnische Minderheit in Deutschland, die bisher abgelehnt wurde, da die Prußen nicht mehr in ihrem ursprünglichen Siedlungsraum leben. In Litauen dagegen sind die Prußen seit 2002 als selbständige ethnische Vereinigung anerkannt. Lettische, litauische und polnische Prußen betreiben im Internet ein Diskussionsforum in – teilweise rekonstruierter - prußischer Sprache. Seit 2005 unterhält die Tolkemita in Potsdam im „Kutschstall“ ein eigenes Museum unter dem Namen "Die Ersten Preußen".

Apparently in Lithuania, Prussians have a status of ethnic minority. I suspect that organisations like this draw, to a certain degree, the attention of neo-Pagans and neo-Prussians who simply want to stand out. However, there are also undoubtedly some families in which the awareness of Prussian descent has been passed down through generetions, like with Pilewski family.

Witting (Teutonic Order's Prussian soldiers recruited from the Prussian peasantry):

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/prusspo9.jpg

Reconstruction:

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/latgaluvv2.jpg

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/wojownik01kulokovqv2.jpg

Sambians:

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/photo.jpg

Old Prussian spears and swords:

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/oruzie.jpg

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/gelezies8mazmu8.jpg

Prussian archer:

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/kapitelfragmentrekonstrfw4.jpg

Yotvingian:

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/wojownikjawieskigx7.jpg

Prussian rider with a characteristic "Prussian shield":

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/prus002.jpg

"Pekilhube" - the famous Prussian helmet:

http://prusa.strefa.pl/witting/pekilhubezniemiecwr5_small.jpg

...which gave rise to Prussian "Pikelhaube":

http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/11/07/51/60/m191510.jpg

Jarl

09-04-2009, 03:25 PM

Most of Sudovia has, since the conquest, belonged to Lithuania (later part of the the Troki/Traku county).

http://viduramziu.istorija.net/pav/LDK16.jpg

Prussian language:

Lord's Prayer:

Thewes nossen, cur tu es Debbes,
Schwisch gesger thowes Wardes;
Pena mynis thowe Wiswalstybe;
Toppes Patres gir iat Delbeszisne, tade tymnes senjnes Worsinny;
Annosse igdenas Mayse dodi mums szon Dien;
Pamutale mums musu Noschegun, kademas pametan nousson Pyktainekans;
No wede numus panam Paadomam;
Swalbadi numes ne wust Tayne.

Beigeite beygeyte peckolle - Run, run, devils! Interestingly, some words are very similar to Slavic. For instance in Polish the same setnce would be "biegaycie, biegaycie diobly". In Russia this "cie" ending/sound is written as "te".

Kayle rekyse. thoneaw labonache thewelyse. Eg. koyte poyte. nykoyte. pe^nega doyte; which may be: Kaīls rikīse! Tu ni jāu laban asei tēwelise, ik kwaitēi pōiti, ni kwaitēi peningā dōiti. (In English: "Hello Sir! You are no longer a nice uncle, if you want to drink but do not want to give a penny!"[10

"Poyte" (to drink) is just like in Slavonic "poycie/pójcie" and "doyte" (to give) is very similar to Slavonic "dojcie/dajcie". Thowes (yours) is similar to "Twoje", and "nossen" (our) to "nosze/nosz".

Jarl

09-04-2009, 04:00 PM

There is a very good website here: http://www.grodziska.strefa.pl/

It has pictures of various Prussian hillforts (under "GRODZISKA"), sacred places (under "ŚWIĘTĘ MIEJSCA") like burial mounds (under "KURHANY"), and ladnscapes (under "KRAJOBRAZY PRUS").

Jarl

09-04-2009, 06:57 PM

Part of Northern East Prussia was also settled by Lithuanians. Since XVI century it was known as Lithuania Minor:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Etnoregionai.png

Lithuania Minor was mainly composed of two former Prussia tribal territories - Nadrovia and Skalovia:

http://www.czarterjachtu.pl/jeziorak/ilawa/prusy/prusy600x473.jpg

http://zobacz-olsztyn.pl/page/img/prusy.jpg

In the South - the Ermland and Mazuren countryside, Polish peasant colonists predominated:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Warmia_i_mazury.svg/350px-Warmia_i_mazury.svg.png

Just like Mazurians, most Lithuanian settlers absorbed some Old Prussian blood. It is thought that they mostly assimilated the remnants of Scalovians and Nadrovians. And just like most Mazurians, majority of Prussian Lithuanians left for Germany after WWII:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Lithuanians

In the relations between Prussian Lithuanians and Lithuanians (including Samogitians), despite having the same language, antagonism was frequent. It was based possibly mostly on the different religion, because religion was a very important factor of consciousness in earlier times and was identified with nationality, similarly as for the Dutch people in the Netherlands and Belgium. Antagonism could be seen in the Memel Territory after it was incorporated into Lithuania. Inhabitants of Lithuania (sometimes called Didlietuviai (did- is Lithuanian for "big", "great")) did not trust Prussian Lithuanians in the Klaipėda Region and tended to think of them as "not real Lithuanians", as was well-known since the first years of the autonomous status of the Klaipėda Region.[10] The nationalistic policy, especially after the 1926 coup d'etat, was caried out by the nationalistic oriented state. Such policy led only to failures only; some Prussian Lithuanians resigned their nationality in the censuses and to express difference from Lithuanians signed themselves as "Memellanders".

The antipathy was strong: when Prussian Lithuanian writer Ewa Simoneit chose the side of the policy of the Lithuanian Republic (she officially became Ieva Simonaitytė); she was condemned by relatives, friends and neighbours.[11] Only one Prussian Lithuanian (Dovas Zaunius) worked in the government of Lithuania, between World War I and World War II. The antagonism persisted till the end of the World War II, when East Prussia had gone.

:) Prussian Lithuanians were also Protestant, just like Mazurians. And they also considered themselves as "Prussians":

Prussian Lithuanians usually named themselves in the general term Prussians (Lithuanian: Prūsai, German: Preusch)[5] which itself appeared after the state dependence. In order to express their distinctive ethnic identity from other Prussians, the names Prussian Lithuanians (Lithuanian: Pruſû Lietuwiai, Pruſû Lietuwininkai, Pruſißki Lietuwininkai, German: Preußische Litauer), or simply Lithuanians (plural: Lithuanian: Lietuw(i)ni(n)kai, singular: Lietuwininkas, German: Litauer) were used. Prussian Lithuanians regarded themselves as Lithuanians (Lietuwininkai) only for themselves - they did not realize and did not want to realize they were the same people with Russian[1]- Lithuanians. They had always better living conditions[citation needed] had slight contacts with Lithuanians under the rule of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russian Empire. This was possibly[citation needed] the ground for the exonym's Samogitians (Lithuanian: Źemaicziai, German: Szameiten) appearance, which was used by Lietuwininkai to refer to Lithuanians. Such referring to Lietuwininkai as Lithuanians (German: Litauer), and referring to Lithuanians as Samogitians (German: Szamaiten) was usual in East Prussia. A Lithuanian press that was published in Tilsit during the Lithuanian national revival admitted the separate identity of Prussian Lithuanians: "who has better knowledge of Lithuanians living on the Prussian side, can clearly note that Muscovite Lithuania with its inhabitants is a country with which they are completely unacquainted; they even have no desire to know it, since they do not consider those whom they call "Samogitians" as members of their own tribe; in their opinion Samogitian is the same thing as Muscovite or Pole."[6] They were proud they were better[citation needed] Lithuanians. Such isolate, fluid and exceptional identity was similar to Masurian identity towards Poles. Loyalty to state, great religiosity and mother language were three main priorities of self-identification, and ethnocentrism was not actual.[7] Prussian Lithuanians usually referred to themselves as Prussians or Germans when living outside Germany. It was quite usual for Prussian Lithuanian to be a German and Lietuwininkas, to speak Lithuanian and be a German in the same time. Local self-designating terms found in literature, such as Sziszionißkiai ("people from here") , Burai (German: Bauern), were neither politonyms nor ethnonyms. Another similar term appeared in the Memel Territory during the interwar years – Memellanders[8] (Lithuanian: Memelanderiai, German: Memelländers, translated as Klaipėdiškiai in modern Lithuanian historiography). There were people who signed in the censae they were Memellanders by nationality, however. The term Lietuvininkai[9] or sometimes a neologism unknown to Lietuwininkai themselves, Mažlietuviai, is used in the modern Lithuanian historiography.

It is estimated that there is about ~125,000 (by origin, due exceptional identity declaring is confusing) Prussian Lithuanians. 100 000 lives in Germany.

More on the history of Prussian Lithuanians here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_Minor#History

Here is Vilius Storostas-Vydūnas:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Vydunas_-_200_litai.jpg

a leader of the Prussian Lithuanian national movement in Lithuania Minor, and one of leaders of the theosophical movement in East Prussia, Vydūnas was active in the old Lithuanian pagan religion (see Romuva). However, he never declared the revival of the pagan religion as either his personal goal or a goal of Lithuanians, remaining a national leader but not a religious one. His moral influence transcended the confines of being a typical political leader or a writer at his time. He was compared by later biographers with national leaders in India of his time, such as Rabindranath Tagore or Mohandas Gandhi. Pantheistic universalism, not predefined with participating in any obligatory religious practice, was one of the leading ideas of his philosophy, and gained him later fame as a pioneer of both pagan revival and theosophy in Lithuania.

Prussian Lithuanians constituted a minority in East Prussia. They were mainly restricted to the Northern counties:

http://www.atlassen.info/atlassen/velhagen/andha06/picslarge/andha1914k045a.jpg

Prussian Lithuanians were affected by germanisation. Apparently, in the beginning of XIX century they reached as far as Pregola river. Here is Pregola near Gvardeysk (former Tapiau), deep in the heart of Prussian Oberland, now Kaliningrad:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Gvardeisk_town_russia_view_.jpg

On the ethnic make up of East Prussia:

In 1875 the ethnic make-up of East Prussia was 73.48% German-speaking, 18.39% Polish (Masurian)-speaking, and 8.11% Lithuanian-speaking (according to Słownik geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego). (...)The numbers of Masurians and Prussian Lithuanians decreased over time due to the process of Germanization. The Polish-speaking population concentrated in the south of the province (Masuria and Warmia), while Lithuanian-speaking Prussians concentrated in the northeast (Lithuania Minor). The Old Prussian ethnic group became completely Germanized over time and the Old Prussian language died out in the 18th century.

After WWII Southern Prussia, including the Mazurenland was incorporated into Poland. Oberland - mostly former Sambia and Nadrovian part of Lithuania Minor became Russian Kaliningrad Oblast. Scalovian part of Lithuania Minor, or the Prussian Memelland, was incorporated into Lithuanian USSR:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Karte_viertepolnischeteilung.png

By the end of WWII there were about 300 000 Mazurians and Ermlanders. Many utterly germanised. Vast majority lives now in Germany. Some remained in Poland. Both groups will most likely quickly blend into their host communieties within few generations. Prussian Lithuanians, whether in Germany or Lithuania, will most likely share the same fate.

Jarl

09-05-2009, 09:33 AM

Few pictures from East Prussian Oberland and Lithuania Minor:

Konigsberg:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/K%C3%B6nigsberg_Castle.jpg

http://www.castlesofpoland.com/prusy/postcard/konigsberg032.jpg

http://www.bwa.olsztyn.pl/a06/6/gfx/atlantis2.jpg

http://www.bwa.olsztyn.pl/a06/6/gfx/atlantis1.jpg

http://www.bwa.olsztyn.pl/a06/6/gfx/atlantis3.jpg

http://www.jugendzeit-ostpreussen.de/Kbg091.jpg

http://www.jugendzeit-ostpreussen.de/Kbg114.jpg

Tuchmacherstraße:

http://www.jugendzeit-ostpreussen.de/Kbg112.jpg

Junkerstraße:

http://www.jugendzeit-ostpreussen.de/Kbg121.jpg

Here is a good website run by a Mazurian living in Germany. It's got many more pictures of the former Koningsberg: http://www.jugendzeit-ostpreussen.de/

Memel (Klajpeda):

http://www.rejsymorskie.com.pl/2004litwa-lotwa/13.Klajpeda(pocztowka).JPG

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/e/e5/Bild_Memel_Friedrich_Wilhelm_Stra%C3%9Fe.jpg/650px-Bild_Memel_Friedrich_Wilhelm_Stra%C3%9Fe.jpg

http://www.tilsiteinstundjetzt.de/041.jpg

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/3/3d/Bild_Ort_Memel_Partie_an_der_Karlsbr%C3%BCcke_01.g if/400px-Bild_Ort_Memel_Partie_an_der_Karlsbr%C3%BCcke_01.g if

http://www.antikestiche.de/images/ebay-bilder/daheim/memel.jpg

Tilst:

http://www.castlesofpoland.com/prusy/postcard/tilsit029.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee80/tomeckb/IMGP0041.jpg

http://kaliningrad.probaltic.pl/images/big/bc819b3d6ece631d7ccac899881cd771.jpg

Insterburg:

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Insterburg%201914+.jpg

http://www.wieze.republika.pl/indexStare_images/Czerniachowsk_Insterburg.jpg

http://www.templariusze.com/prusy/postcard/insterburg013.jpg

http://freenet-homepage.de/braunsberg/insterburg.jpg

http://www.kulturzentrum-ostpreussen.de/2_ostpreussen/stadte/bez_gumbinnen/bez_gumbinnen_bilder/insterburg_460.jpg

Prussian "Trakhen" horse breed:

http://www.trakehner-verband.de/_pferde/hvp-insterburg3.jpg

Jarl

09-05-2009, 09:47 AM

In East Prussia, apart from "Prussian Poles" and "Prussian Lithuanians", there were also "Prussian Latvians" or "Kuren". They inhabited the Kuronian Split:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1707/andha1914k045a.jpg

These so called "New Curonians" (to distinguis them from the extinct Old Curonians - a tribe inhabiting Latvia) were a small minority in East Prussia, nonetheless they were as old as Mazurians or Lithuanians. They descended from Latvian colonists which came from Courland in XIV-XVII century:

The origin of the Kursenieki is unclear. One version says that they are autochthonous descendants of the Curonian tribe who lived there since antiquity, at least along the Curonian Spit. [2] During the conquest of the Old Prussians and Curonians by the Teutonic Knights, the area became nearly uninhabited. In the process of various migrations of the 14th-17th centuries,[3][4][5] Curonians from Courland settled near Memel, along the Curonian Spit, and in Sambia (all regions in East Prussia). They preserved the old self-designation of Curonians (kursi), while Curonians who stayed in Courland became Latvians. The Kursenieki were assimilated by Germans, except along the Curonian Spit where some still live. Until 1945, several places in Sambia were named after Kursenieki, including Cranzkuhren, Neukuhren, Gross Kuhren, and Klein Kuhren. In 1649 Kursenieki lived from Memel (Klaipėda) to Danzig (Gdańsk). In the end of the 19th century the total number of Kursenieki was around 4,000 persons.

Its doubtful they reached as far as Vistula Split and Danzig. Vistula Split was mostly a barren desolate land with few fishing communities composed mostly of Prussian Germans. New Curonians, or Kursenieki, shortly became the subject of a Latvian-Lithuanian and Latvian-German conflict.

Kursenieki were considered Latvians after World War I when Latvia gained independence from the Russian Empire. This consideration was based on linguistic arguments and was the rationale for Latvian claims over the Curonian Spit, Memel, and some other territories of East Prussia. Later these claims were removed. In 1923 the newly-created Memel Territory (Klaipėda Region) separated the Curonian Spit in two parts.This separation interrupted contacts between Kursenieki. In 1933 Latvia tried to establish a cultural center for Kursenieki of the Curonian Spit where the majority of them lived, but was opposed by Lithuania, to which the Memel Territory belonged. Latvian books that were sent to Kursenieki were confiscated and accused of communist propaganda. Near the end of World War II, the majority of Kursenieki fled from the Red Army during the evacuation of East Prussia. Kursenieki that remained behind were subsequently expelled by the Soviet Union after the war and replaced with Russians and Lithuanians.

It is not certain how many out of these 4000 Curonians survived until WWII. Most of those who did fled into Germany either during the war, or during communism:

Some Kursenieki managed to return to their homes after the war, but only 219 lived along the Curonian Spit in 1955. Many had German names such as Fritz or Hans, a cause for anti-German discrimination. Russian settlers called the Kursenieki fascists, while Lithuanian settlers called them Prussians. In the Lithuanian SSR, church services in German were banned. Because of this discrimination, many immigrated to West Germany in 1958, where the majority of Kursenieki now live. Neither Lithuania nor Russia has allowed the return to Kursenieki of property confiscated after World War II.

There are apparently 9 of them living in Lithuania. The rest lives in Germany.

More on Curonian culture:

The Kursenieki were predominantly Lutheran, like most former inhabitants of East Prussia, although some ancient pagan customs were preserved. Most Kursenieki were bilingual or even trilingual: the Curonian language was used within the family and while fishing, German was used in everyday communication (as Kursenieki identified nationally with Germany), and the language of church services was German and Lithuanian. The Kursenieki were primarily fishermen. Some elements of cuisine are named after Kursenieki, for example Curonian coffee (Kurenkoffee); a drink made of vodka flavoured with coffee, honey and other ingredients was popular throughout East Prussia. The first who took an interest in Kursenieki culture and language was Paul Kwauka, a member of the separatist movement of Memel Territory. His book "Kurisches Worterbuch" is a highly valuable source of information. The work of describing their heritage is continued by one of the last remaining Curonians, Richard Pietsch. [6]

The surnames of Kursenieki have various origins, including:

Latvian, some with elements of Old Curonian: Gulbis, Kakies, Kuite, Kukulitis, Pinkis, Strangulis, Detzkeit, Jakeit
Lithuanian: Kalwis, Lauzeningks
Lithuanian or Latvian or Oldprussian: Dullis, Purwins
German: Kiehr, Schmidt
Protobaltic: Engelins
Samogitian: Pietsch
Oldprussian: Schadowski, Schekahn

One of the famous Kuresnieki was Ludwig Rhesa - a professor at the University of Königsberg in East Prussia, translator and..... a member of Lietuvininks movement!

Rhesa also researched the traditions of Baltic language folk song (daina). He published the first collection of 85 such songs in 1825 under title Dainos oder Litthauische Volkslieder. Thus he is considered to be the founder of Lithuanian folklore research.

Ludwig Reza:

http://www.visitneringa.com/tools/neo_image.php?id=3186&width=250&height=334

It is interesting to note that there had to be some sort of sense of mutal affinity between the Balts in Ostpreussen - the Prussian Lithuanians and Prussian Latvians, with the latter participating in the ethno-cultural movements of the Lietuwininkai.

Jarl

09-05-2009, 10:41 AM

In any case, this website by an ex-Prussian Mazurian has many stories and memoirs from ante- and postbellum East Prussia (unfortunately only in Polish and German):

http://www.jugendzeit-ostpreussen.de/

Authors are mostly Germans, Mazurians and Ermlanders. Some describe the atrocities and crimes commited on the locals which remained in East Prussia when the Red Army came. Some recount the stories of their later lives, in West Germany.

Jarl

09-05-2009, 11:21 AM

Curonian house:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Kurische_Nehrung_Curonian_Spit_Pferdegiebel.jpg

Curonian cemetary:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/La_malnova_germana_tombejo_de_Nida.jpg

Curonian Split (now in Lithuania) - a Latvian website:

http://www.lu.lv/petnieciba/petniecibas-projekti/2004/kursite.html

http://www.lu.lv/petnieciba/petniecibas-projekti/2004/resursi/kursite-07.jpg

http://www.lu.lv/petnieciba/petniecibas-projekti/2004/resursi/kursite-06.jpg

http://www.lu.lv/petnieciba/petniecibas-projekti/2004/resursi/kursite-05.jpg

http://www.lu.lv/petnieciba/petniecibas-projekti/2004/resursi/kursite-04.jpg

A website in German - "Die Kuren": http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/die_kuren.html

http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/kaphof3.jpg

http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/kaphof2.gif

http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/kaphof4.gif

http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/kaphof5.jpg

http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/kaphof6.gif

Fish market in Koningsberg:

http://www.memelland-adm.de/Bevoelkerungsgeschichte/kaphof7.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1nHj8EWQo9U/R7VOB5VKh1I/AAAAAAAAAp0/Q6Bss8evSpU/s400/1332947730_a98ac302bc_b.jpg

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3174836-_Lithuanian_State_Department_of_Tourism-Lithuania.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1nHj8EWQo9U/R7VJ_ZVKhxI/AAAAAAAAApU/PFzIN5Iwq2M/s400/sunset.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/15/d7/d9/lithuania.jpg

http://mapy.pomocnik.com/img/photos2/photo_of_curian_spit_from_the_air.jpg

Neringa/Nida:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Zyx9un5JEjM/SOduTpP0tbI/AAAAAAAACzY/LRx2_U53tq0/DSC_0226.JPG

http://digart.img.digart.pl/data/img/vol3/66/91/download/1051337.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Image-Lithuania_Juodkrante_sand_dunes.jpg

Am Meer, am Strande,
an der Ostsee im Sande,
da steht eine Hütte gar lieblich, gar klein.
Da wohnte mein Vater,
was möglich war, tat er,
denn ich war sein einziges Goldvögelein.
Auf Wellen, auf Wogen,
ward´ ich auferzogen,
der schaukelnde Kahn
sollt´ die Wiege mir sein. (altes Lied)

Poltergeist

09-07-2009, 03:21 PM

Csángó people (one branch of Hungarians) from Moldavia

http://www.hunsor.se/dosszie/csango_world_heritage.pdf

The Hungarians of Moldavia (http://www.archive.org/stream/hungariansofmold00tatruoft/hungariansofmold00tatruoft_djvu.txt)

The csángó (chango) minority culture in Moldavia (Romania) (http://www.geocities.com/ihunsor/erdelyipanorama/thecsangominorityculture.htm)

http://image60.webshots.com/160/9/39/16/480593916qiHYZB_fs.jpg

http://www.hhrf.org/newsletter/images/csango.gyerekek.jpg

http://www.csangopanzio.ro/program/nyar3.jpg

http://epa.oszk.hu/00800/00804/00380/hit/csango1.jpg

http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02115/html/img/2-530b.jpg

http://www.inkognitopanzio.ro/images/pic010.max.jpg

Jarl

09-07-2009, 06:38 PM

370 persons declared to be Csangos - (2002 census). Maximum estimated population of 260,000:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Csangos.PNG

Apparently they arrived there in along with "Saxons" in Medieval Ages.

It seems Romanian authorities are causing some obstructions :

In 2001 the Romanian authorities banned the teaching of the Hungarian language in private houses of Klézse village despite the recommendation of the Council of Europe.[17] The chances or rather the lack of chances of adjusting to official Romanian educational system must be mentioned, too. After 1990 parents in Klézse (Cleja), Pusztina (Pustiana) and Lészped (Lespezi) requested several times that their children could learn Hungarian language at school either as an optional language or as their native language, in 1-4 lessons a week. They did not want education in Hungarian but teaching Hungarian language to their children. At best their petition was registered, but in most cases it was ignored.

In 2008 members of the European Parliament sent in a petition to the European Commission on the obstruction of the Hungarian language education and the alleged intimidation of Csango-Hungarian pupils in Valea Mare (Nagypatak).[20] As a feedback on the petition of László Tőkés MEP, the leader of the High Commission on Minority Affairs responded: in a written notice they would warn Romania to secure mother tongue education for the Csangos of Moldavia.[20]

How could Romanians ban teaching Hungarian in "private houses"???

Jarl

12-03-2009, 10:44 PM

Anyway! Back to my old hobby... Ahh! I've been waiting for this ages! ;)

Has anyone ever heard of the Willamovian Germans??? I got a really nice UNESCO website for every endangered ethnicity hunters:

http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?pg=00206

About the Vilamovian:

Vilamovian or Wilamowicean (Wymysiöeryś) is a West Germanic language spoken in the small town of Wilamowice (Wymysoj in Vilamovian) near Bielsko-Biała, on the border between Silesia and Lesser Poland in the historical region of Galicia. At present, there are about 70 native users of Vilamovian, the majority of them elderly people; Vilamovian is therefore a moribund language.

In origin, Vilamovian appears to derive from 12th century Middle High German, with a strong influence from Low German, Dutch, Frisian, Polish and Old English. The inhabitants of Wilamowice are thought to be descendants of German, Dutch and Scottish settlers who arrived in Poland in the 13th century. However, the inhabitants of Wilamowice always denied any connections with Germany and proclaimed their Dutch origins.

Vilamovian was the vernacular language of Wilamowice until 1939–1945. After World War II, local communist authorities forbade the use of the language. Although the ban was lifted after 1956, Vilamovian has been gradually replaced by Polish, especially amongst the younger generations.

Vilamovian was the language in which the poetry of Florian Biesik was written, during the 19th century.

XIII century German-Dutch settlers in one single isolated village in Southern Polish mountains... and still speaking their own tongue, which due to isolation evolved into a separate language! Amazing isn't it??? :)

Here are the traditional dresses:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Str%C3%B3j_wilamowski.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Zesp%C3%B3%C5%82_Wilamowce.jpg

There unfortunately only 70 speakers of this language now. Mostly older people. There have been some attempts to teach the Vilamovian children their language at school. The villagers run their own folk society and there is a traditional folk band and troupe called "Wilamowice". They have their own website in their own language:

http://jzn.pl/wymysojer/news.php

"Our Father" in Vilamovian:

Ynzer Foter, dü byst ym hymuł,
Daj noma zuł zajn gywajt;
Daj Kyngrajch zuł dö kuma;
Daj wyła zuł zajn ym hymuł an uf der aot;
dos ynzer gywynłichys brut gao yns haojt;
an fercaj yns ynzer siułda,
wi wir aoj fercajn y ynzyn siułdigia;
ny łat yns cyn zynda;
zunder kaonst yns reta fum nistgüta.
[Do Dajs ej z Kyngrajch an dy maocht, ans łaowa uf inda.]
Amen

Wilamowice:

http://www.historia.beskidia.pl/userfiles/wehikul/350.jpg

http://www.historia.beskidia.pl/userfiles/wehikul/346.jpg

http://www.polskaniezwykla.pl/gallery/eventImages/32522.jpeg

Osweo

12-04-2009, 02:23 AM

XIII century German-Dutch settlers in one single isolated village in Southern Polish mountains... and still speaking their own tongue, which due to isolation evolved into a separate language! Amazing isn't it??? :)

Tak! Reminded me of these fellows out east:

The GOLENDRY
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a domestic flight from Moscow to the Caucasus, I recently came across an interesting article that I thought might be nice to translate into Anglisky for the benefit of Apricity members:

Hollanders in Siberia
Text: Yekaterina Arbuzova, Kseniya Dokukina
Photos: Aleksandr Sorin
Deep in the Siberian Taiga, for the last one hundred years, a European people have been living in three little villages. They are the Golendry. During this time, the settlers have maintained their distinct character while adopting some traits of other peoples. The Golendry speak Russian with a Belarussian accent, they sing in Polish, build houses in the German style, and celebrate like Russians. The Golendry have no plans to return to their historical homeland in northwestern Germany, for in Siberia these descendants of Europeans have long made their home - although many take their settlement for a museum, and the Golendry themselves for exhibits.

Beyond mobile coverage

On the road leading to the Golendry, there are no villages or signs – all around is the Taiga, and above the treetops the peaks of the Sayan Mountains. There is a complete sense of removal from the outside world; even mobile phone pick up no reception. Nor is there a telephone in the village itself. The single payphone in Pikhtinsk was set up as a mere decoration – as the villagers themselves admit, the new apparatus has never been operational. The three villages of the Golendry are found at a distance of 70km from the settlement of Zalari, the regional centre, and 290km from the capital of Eastern Siberia, Irkutsk. They are very compactly situated, with not three kilometres between the three of them. Pikhtinsk almost immediately leads into Sredniy (Middle) Pikhtinsk, and the latter into Dagnik. Before 1955 the territory of the Golendry was closed to the outside world. The small nation was isolated from the rest of the country in which, according to the ruling ideology, everyone was ‘Sovetskie’. “All our lives we have been considered Germans. People were afraid to maintain links with relatives abroad, fearing a return to the past,” reminisces the Golendr Ivan Zelent, the most prominent member of this community, serving as President of Irkutsk Oblast’s Legislative Council from 1994 to 2000. He opened the way to the Golendry in both the direct and metaphorical sense. In 1955 he and his brother first left for the capital of PriAngarye (Irkutsk is sited on the River Angara), one to study, and the other for the army. Eleven years ago a road was built to the villages on Zelent’s initiative.

In Sredniy Pikhtinsk there is only one street, without a name. As one local remarked; “What are street names and house numbers to us?! This is the countryside!” The village is quite different from the typical Russian, with its distinct architecture: Here the one storey houses are very long – 20-25 metres. “Living quarters and working rooms are found under the one roof and are united by a corridor,” as we were explained. “It is very convenient, for the whole day can be spent working without ever leaving the building.” In this the true German practicality of the Golendry shows itself, one of several traits they have inherited from their European ancestors.

The first settlers spoke German, but now nobody knows the language. In the war years the inhabitants deliberately refrained from learning their own language – they were afraid. Nowadays, the Golendry speak Russian with a Belarussian accent and sing songs in Polish.

A house museum

The club and museum became the base for our ethnographic researches. As the villagers recall, a rebirth of national identity began in 1994, and the museum is now quite well appointed. Tours were given by Natalya Lyudvig, the head of the local historical society. “Here we have a cradle,” she explained, pointing out a structure plaited from reeds. “I used to rock my own children to sleep in such a thing.” Basketry with vines is reckoned a national craft, predominantly carried out by men. Such baskets were formally used instead of refrigerators. In another corner of the museum is exhibited a traditional dowry. Golendry considered it their duty to sew a bedding set for a bride; three pillows, an undersheet and a bedcover. “The tradition is still observed today. I have sewn the same for my daughters. And those who aren’t able order a set from an old woman.” Among the exhibits are included a semi-operational loom and a broken spinning wheel. Many local residents still weave, but now on electrical machines. “In the museum you can see the same objects that Golendry have in their homes,” remarked our guide as we went to visit the Pastrik family, living in the neighbouring village of Dagnik. In the homestead of Rudolf Mikhailovich and Emma Mikhailovna we found beds covered with embroidered sheets, tapestries on the walls, and in the corner a dowry-chest. On the chest of drawers in the bedroom was a statuette of the Virgin Mary beside a portrait of the Pope, although the majority of Golendry are Protestants. However, in so far as there was no Protestant church here, the settlers requalified as Catholics. And yet holy days are observed in general according to Protestant and Orthodox custom.

Our guide went first to the kitchen to ask the mistress of the house if she would receive members of the press. “Oh, it’s always alright for me,” said the old woman merrily. “Emma Mikhailovna managed to change while we were on our way,” whispered Natalya Lyudvig in secret. The housewife sat behind her spinning wheel during the conversation. “Walk and work I cannot, but spin I may,” she explained.

Emma Mikhailovna was born in Sredniy Pikhtinsk, and moved to Dagnik on marriage. “My mama married who her parents told her to, but didn’t make her own children. And so I rejected my first proposal,” recalled Emma Pastrik. Among the Golendry, rejected suitors are given a basket with a hole in, told her contented husband Rudolf Pastrik. Emma Mikhailovna had accepted his proposal. The couple now have seven children and a huge house and land for sheep, cows and chickens. The Pastriks have never been to town. “I’ve never been further than our villages. I won’t even go to Irkutsk alone – I’d get lost!” smiled Emma Mikhailovna. Her parents, on the other hand, had managed to travel. They had moved as children from Poland before the First World War. Then the voluntary resettlement of the Golendry to Irkutskaya Oblast had taken place. There was insufficient land back home, and in search of a better life the people travelled into Siberia, finding their “better life” deep in the Taiga. “When they first started to build, there was nothing here. As my parents used to say, people followed the sounds of the axe,” recounted Rudolf Pastrik.

A European Izba

When we were returning from our visit, another house caught our eye; long, whitewashed, with a cat resting on the window sill. Natalya Lyudvig said that this was the home of her mother. “While Mama is not home you can come in and have a look,” she permitted. We entered the dwelling not quite legally, climbing through a hole in the fence. Through a wild plot (elderly Golendry rarely work their land) we made our way into a storage room, and along a corridor into the kitchen. The room was taken up chiefly by a dark blue painted stove, the local inhabitants preferring this colour most of all; “It’s more beautiful that way,” they reckon. On Pikhtinsk’s buildings themselves however there is no ornamentation.

The architecture of the Golendry is the essence of minimalism; in building they did not even employ usual nails. All parts of the house support each other, and the beams and openings are held fast with wooden pegs. Each building is divided into a “staika” (bier), “tok” (barn for grain, cart and sleigh), and an “izba” (living quarters).

Such a principle of organisation of living and working space is native to many European countries. The izbushki of the Golendry are not sited “back to the forest, front to the river” as is the custom in Russian villages in Siberia, - their houses are orientated on the four cardinal points. In general, everything in the homes of the Golendry seems as though taken from a fairy tale, as though in a painting.

Wedding flurries

In the villages of the Golendry, practically everyone is related. “I, for example, began living with my three-family nephew in 1995,” divulged the director of the local club, Yelena Lyudvig. Weddings are a rare occurrence among the Golendry. Yelena Lyudvig’s formal marriage took place only in the Autumn of 2006. It seems that some marriages never take place, because of a superstition held amongst the Golendry that if during courtship a horse rears, the couple cannot live together. If however all goes well, then for such an event a whole year is needed for preparation. For three days before the wedding the bride is initiated into wifedom. Instead of the bridal veil usual to Russians, the bride dons a bonnet, the ritual being accompanied by a rifle volley. As the bride bids farewell to her parents and weeps (this is a compulsory condition) old women sing prayers in Polish.

Weddings among these German descended Siberians require much time and stamina, as the whole village celebrates for three days. “The inlaws and friends of both parties, the cooks, all have to assemble,” commented Yelena as the video of her own wedding flickered on her small television screen. The first day of celebration is held at the bride’s home, the remaining two at the groom’s. Special decorations for a Golendr wedding include garlands of wimberries, bouquets of paper flowers for the clothes of the guests, and little branches , wrapped with crimped paper on which sweets are hung.
“We’re almost all relatives here, so all the village is invited to the celebration,” said Yelena.

Family Hospitality

Only a few surnames are in use in the settlement of the Golendry; Bendik, Kunts, Zelent, Gil’debrand, Gimburg, and Lyudvig. It later turned out that all the women working at the club bore the surname Lyudvig. It was due to their German surnames that the Golendry were not sent to fight on the front in the Great Fatherland War, but were recruited into the labour front. One of the local resident – Yuzofina – did her bit at the time. We turned up at Granny Yuzufina’s unannounced; all the doors were open, as indeed there is nothing to fear from relatives. Golendry are very conscientious about family relations.

At the age of 84 Yuzufina lives alone. The house is light and tidy, on the table stands a samovar covered with a towel. “She’s hard of hearing,” whispered the director of the club, and loudly asked Yuzufina to tell about her life. “During the war they conscripted me into the labour-army” said Yuzufina, smilingly sadly. “Then I worked on the Kolkhoz. That’s my life. A hard one.” Her husband and son had died, and she now supports close family relations with her grandson – they write letters to each other. “I was illiterate. In childhood my stepmother didn’t let us go to school, and then there was no time for education. And so I had to learn at the age of 80. I had to answer my grandson’s letters somehow!”

We began to take our leave; the road home was long. Granny Yuzufina fussed over us; “You’re going to leave hungry? I should cook something. Let’s have pelmeni!” But we couldn’t disturb the old woman any further, and left her in her previous solitude.

The younger generation leave Sredniy Pikhtinsk, as they do other villages. The present population in the village does not exceed 300 persons. They are solving the demographic problem here in their own way. More than ten adoptive parents have taken children from the home in the nearby settlement of Khor-Tagna.

Taiga Tourism

Yelena and Natalya Lyudvig valorously accompanied the whole day, their day off work. Our interviews with local people continued late into the evening. Returning to the club, we enquired of the staff whether they invited journalists to the village. “Journalists? They come all by themselves, we’re sick of them already,” shrugged Natalya Lyudvig, forgetting that the same “annoying press” stood right before her.

Soon enough, tourists will be disturbing the Golendry. On the territory of the three villages, they plan to open an interactive village-museum. In Pikhtinsk, one homestead has already been kitted out for these aims. The originators of the idea are now collecting exhibits and preparing displays. According to the project, the interactive village will become part of the “Moscow Resettlement Ring”. The organisers are setting their hopes on the development of local infrastructure, Golendr national cuisine and the German hardiness of the people.

For now, the Golendry are not too tired of visitors. Before our departure, they hospitably sat us down round a table and fed us their national dish – Kartuflyanki. They are made from mashed potato, mixed with flour, rolled into balls and fried in lard. And there was samogon – the real thing! Since the local spirits distillery had closed down, everyone had returned to the domestic production of alcohol.

Autonym – Golendry (in translation from Polish = Hollanders, Dutchmen). They have German, Dutch, Belorussian and Polish roots.

Home territory – Irkutskaya Oblast, Zalarinsky Raion, the villages Pikhtinsk (Zamosteche), Sredniy Pikhtinsk (Noviny), and Dagnik

Date of Resettlement – 1908 – 1910

Reason of Resettlement – Voluntary or forced resettlement to Siberia in search of free lands in the time of Stolypin’s agricultural reforms.

Population – In three villages, approximately 500 persons.

Wikipedia has the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...e_Soviet_Union

Between 1911 and 1915, a small group of Volhynian German farmers (36 families - more than 200 people) chose instead to move to Eastern Siberia, making use of the resettlement subsidies of the Stolypin reform. They settled in three villages (Pikhtinsk, Sredne-Pikhtinsk, and Dagnik) in what is today Zalari District of Irkutsk Oblast, where they became known as the "Bug Hollanders". They apparently were not using German any more, but rather spoke Ukrainian and used Lutheran Bibles that had been printed in East Prussia, in Polish, but in Gothic script. Their descendants, still bearing German names, continue to live in the district into the 21st century.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkutsk_Oblast

One small ethnic group, concentrated in three villages (Pikhtinsk, Sredne-Pikhtinsk, and Dagnik) in the Zalari District is the so-called "Bug Hollanders": descendants of Polish-speaking Lutheran farmers who had moved to Siberia from the then Russian Volhynia in 1911-1912 in search of affordable land. Although they had long lost German (or Dutch) language of their ancestors (even in the early 20th century they spoke Ukrainian and read Polish), they were still considered ethnic Germans, and during World War II were usually drafted for work in labor camps, instead of front-line military service.

There's a good text here, but far too long to translate! Perhaps there are interested Russian speakers reading:
http://www.strana-oz.ru/?numid=27&article=1189

I found some photos on the 'RuNet':
СИБИРСКИЕ ГОЛЕНДРЫ
http://www.ogoniok.com/archive/2004/4845/18-56-57/

http://turbohide.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3Lm9nb25pb2suY29tL2NvbW1vbi9hc mNoaXZlLzIwMDQvNDg0NS8xOC01Ni01Ny8xOC01Ni0yYi5qcGc %3D&b=5

http://turbohide.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3Lm9nb25pb2suY29tL2NvbW1vbi9hc mNoaXZlLzIwMDQvNDg0NS8xOC01Ni01Ny8xOC01Ny0xYi5qcGc %3D&b=5

http://turbohide.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3Lm9nb25pb2suY29tL2NvbW1vbi9hc mNoaXZlLzIwMDQvNDg0NS8xOC01Ni01Ny8xOC01Ny00Yi5qcGc %3D&b=5

http://turbohide.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3Lm9nb25pb2suY29tL2NvbW1vbi9hc mNoaXZlLzIwMDQvNDg0NS8xOC01Ni01Ny8xOC01Ni0xYi5qcGc %3D&b=5

It seems there's still a railway station in the south west Ukraine that bears their name.

There are various theories about the origin of the name. Some see the Holland idea to be a mere coincidence.

The Russian language article by Olga Solovyeva above contains a section that's worth summarizing:
http://magazines.russ.ru/oz/2005/6/2005_6_23.html

There are three versions:

1. They lived in the lower Rhineland, but left for the Vistula in the mid 16th century, settling around Danzig, later settling the lands of Count Leszczinski.

2. They were Dutch Lutherans, fleeing religious persecution. They moved to Danzig, and later to the Western Bug.

3. They originated in Prussia. This view is supported by the modern German scholar Helmut Holz: "Neither their religion, language, customs nor national costume link them with Holland. ... they were Prussians."

They pronounce their name 'Olendry', or 'Holendry' as in Polish, Bughollaеnder — in German.
Holz managed to find an old church chronicle in which they were not termed Bughollaеnder, but Haulaеnder. Hauland being the German term for ploughland cleared by the chopping down and burning of forest cover - hauen is the English 'hew' - and the settlers did just that - in the Volyn in the late middle ages, and in Siberia in the early 20th century.

If you like playing with Google Earth, or just want to look in an atlas for where they live, the coordinates are
53'22''52 N 101'40''30 E
Roughly halfway between the Angara and the Sayany.

Jarl

12-04-2009, 06:14 PM

There have been numerous Dutch and Low German villages in Poland. Here is a website with lists all the villages for every subregion:

http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=polska&id=toc

There is an English version here:

http://holland.org.pl/index.htm

Jarl

12-04-2009, 06:19 PM

Here is a whole e-book with a full catalogue of sites, history of Dutch colonisation of Masovia - my family's province :)

http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en

There are pics and descriptions of houses.

Jamt

12-04-2009, 06:35 PM

My father’s side of family is from a village called Hålland in Jämtland, funded by Dutch immigrants. One of them was absolute legend kick ass swine. I know my roots.

esaima

12-04-2009, 09:27 PM

Jarl

12-05-2009, 05:01 PM

Had a Polish foreign minister Dutch roots?

Polish foreign minister from before WWII, Jozef Beck, had some Dutch roots. His ancestor was Bartholomeus Beck from Flanders. He was a sailor and an officer (captain?) in the Polish Navy of Stefan Batory, in XVI century.

Jarl

12-16-2009, 06:22 PM

Anyway! Back to my old hobby... Ahh! I've been waiting for this ages! ;)

Vilamovian or Wilamowicean (Wymysiöeryś) is a West Germanic language spoken in the small town of Wilamowice (Wymysoj in Vilamovian) near Bielsko-Biała, on the border between Silesia and Lesser Poland in the historical region of Galicia. At present, there are about 70 native users of Vilamovian, the majority of them elderly people; Vilamovian is therefore a moribund language.

In origin, Vilamovian appears to derive from 12th century Middle High German, with a strong influence from Low German, Dutch, Frisian, Polish and Old English. The inhabitants of Wilamowice are thought to be descendants of German, Dutch and Scottish settlers who arrived in Poland in the 13th century. However, the inhabitants of Wilamowice always denied any connections with Germany and proclaimed their Dutch origins.

Vilamovian was the vernacular language of Wilamowice until 1939–1945. After World War II, local communist authorities forbade the use of the language. Although the ban was lifted after 1956, Vilamovian has been gradually replaced by Polish, especially amongst the younger generations.

Vilamovian was the language in which the poetry of Florian Biesik was written, during the 19th century.

XIII century German-Dutch settlers in one single isolated village in Southern Polish mountains... and still speaking their own tongue, which due to isolation evolved into a separate language! Amazing isn't it??? :)

Interestingly enough, there was also another such Germanic enclave in Southern Poland. It was in Halcnowo (formerly a village, now a part of Bielsko-Biała city). It died out after 1945. Im not certain, but I think the people must have been expelled or probably left for Germany as many Silesian Germans did. There were about 200 speakers of this language prior to 1945.

The language was similar to Villamovian (or "Wymysiöeryś" as the Villamovians call it) and the people descended from Medieval German colonists invited as settlers by the Silesian Piast dukes. Halcnowski language was however apparently more German-like. Here is one text from Polish wikipedia:

Dər Līga-Jirg

Ma hīrt guor oft di Loit huort kluoin
do hoit-zotāg werd veil geloin
an wār nė güt betrīga kon,
dos ei kai ōgefāner Mōn.
Do lōw ėch mir di ālde Welt
di wuor of andre Fis geštelt.
(...)

And some literature:

- Alza. Gedichte und Lieder einer untergehenden Mundart von Michael Zöllner von Oberschlesischer Heimatverlag GmbH (Taschenbuch - 1989).

- Das Buch der Bielitz-Bialaer Chronika : Bausteine zu einem Geschichtsbuch der Bielitz-Bialaer Landschaft (Historische Gesellschaft für Posen, 1938).

- Die deutsche Sprachinsel Bielitz-Biala (Das junge Volk, 1923).
Źródło „http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%99zyk_ha%C5%82cnowski”

El Palleter

07-04-2011, 12:57 PM

I'd say the most threatened one in Western Europe is the one to which I partly belong: the Upper Aragonese. Nowadays it's almost completely assimilated to the Castilian/Spanish ethnicity, only some 6,000 to 8,000 people can still speak the language (in a quite Castilianized way).

Their traditional lifestyle in the Central Pyrenees disappeared along the 20th century. Many valleys and villages are now abandoned. As an ethnicity, it'll most likely be extinct in the next 20 years.
The area is beyond hope but not for the reasons that you'd like it to be.

In the early days of the Spanish Civil War, the Catalan anarcho-syndicalist armed gangs were posing a problem to their allies in the Catalan government, for the assassinations and lootings that they were carrying out in the main towns. To get rid of their problem, the Catalan government sent many of them to the border area of Aragon to establish their self-managed rural collectivities.

Their utopia consisted in assassinating many of the local middle class people, who were the ones who had studies: medical doctors, lawyers, school teachers, pharmacists, ... while the rest managed to escape the orgy. The result of their rural collectivities was a miserable and backwards region.

After the war, despite the attempts by the new Spanish Government to regenerate the area, most of the middle and upper classes local people who had escaped refused to return. Their memories were too painful as all had family and friends who had been assassinated, and prefered to stay in Zaragoza, Madrid and Barcelona. And to this day it remains an economically and socially depressed area.

You should know better if you belong there in part.

These Catalan anarcho-syndicalists were filth just like their socialist and communist allies. In Barcelona, one who had earned a fame for his crimes, by the nickname of "red-haired", came for my great-grandfather, who wasn't at home at that moment. It was my great-grandmother swaying an axe who met this filth, and put him in the run.

The instigator, Catalan independentist and president of the Catalan government, Lluís Companys. The face traits say it all.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Luis_Companys.jpg

Comte Arnau

07-04-2011, 02:52 PM

It's incredible that even to a nice thread like this you have to bring your venomous Catalanophobia. I won't follow your game here, this thread doesn't deserve to be derailed.

Ibericus

07-04-2011, 02:57 PM

To the OP: All of Europe is going to extinction, in the next 50-100 years, if nothing changes.

Duckelf

07-04-2011, 03:49 PM

It's incredible that even to a nice thread like this you have to bring your venomous Catalanophobia. I won't follow your game here, this thread doesn't deserve to be derailed.
I don't see how he was being 'Catalanophobic' (please don't use these ridiculous leftist words), I doubt he has any hatred for honourable Catalans, only the murderous red scum.

Raikaswinþs

07-04-2011, 04:05 PM

Cagots were shunned and hated. They were required to live in separate quarters in towns, called cagoteries, which were often on the far outskirts of the villages. Cagots were excluded from all political and social rights. They were only allowed to enter a church by a special door, and during the service a rail separated them from the other worshipers. Either they were altogether forbidden to partake of the sacrament, or the Eucharist was handed to them on the end of a stick, while a receptacle for holy water was reserved for their exclusive use

The cagots were more a caste than an ethnic group per-se,since they lacked a language (although this pariah status provoqued that they developed a unique culture in the cagoteries and cagot towns, along with their own dialects of the languages they used)

They were also genetically different from their neighbours and distintively cohesive among themselves, which leads many to belive that they were actually an insolate and marginalized ethnicity such as some legends seem to suggest (it is said that they are Visigoths, and that that´s the origin of the word Cagot, among many other theories and tales that places a distinct origin from the french and iberian peoples from that area)

http://www.euskonews.com/0070zbk/argazkiak/agote3a.jpg

http://www.fernandobelottini.com.ar/archivos/foto_agote.JPG

Today, their ethnicity has completely diluted and there are no more cagot districts, towns or slums. Surnames such as Agote in Spanish are of Cagot origin, but they are a completely forgotten people except in area sof Navarre where tales of them are still part of the folklore

http://platodesopafria.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/mikel-agote1.jpg?w=900

English wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagot

French wiki

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagots

Castilian Wiki

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agote

Catalan Wiki

http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agotes

Basque Wiki

http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agot

Article of The Independets titled "The last untouchable in europe", aout the cagots

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-last-untouchable-in-europe-878705.html

El Palleter

07-04-2011, 04:14 PM

It's incredible that even to a nice thread like this you have to bring your venomous Catalanophobia.I'm catalanophilliac you nutcase! Your character is not Catalan to me, it's Jacobin!

I won't follow your game here, this thread doesn't deserve to be derailed.Exposing the falseness of your arguments is derailing threads?

Raikaswinþs

07-04-2011, 04:27 PM

It's incredible that even to a nice thread like this you have to bring your venomous Catalanophobia. I won't follow your game here, this thread doesn't deserve to be derailed.

I have to agree here with the german pal, think this time you shot your gun before there was an actual attack or a mere cheesy provocation. He just made an observation about a particular region where a particular group of catalans savaged and raped the area. But didn´t even blame the whole Catalonia for the situation of today´s regions, but he blamed it on those Anarcho Syndicalists, as an argument to disprove your much more obvious between-lines suggestion that the upper aragonese ethnicity are to be yet another victim of the perfidous castilianization.

Wether I agree with Chateubrian or not is another issue, but I was hoping here from you Jordi am uqualy civilized response to Chateu´s post with counter arguments well backed up :speechless-smiley-0

Comte Arnau

07-04-2011, 04:29 PM

Tsakonians

Tsakonians are a native Hellenic population group, speakers of Tsakonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language) (nowadays, fewer than 300), or more broadly, inhabitants of Tsakonia in the eastern Peloponnese and followers of certain Tsakonian cultural traditions, such as the Tsakonian dance.

http://members.shaw.ca/leonidio/about_leonidio/View1.JPG

The term Tsakonas or Tzakonas first emerges in the writings of Byzantine chroniclers who derive the ethnonym from a corruption of Lakonas, a Laconian/Lacedaemonian (Spartan) - a reference to the Doric roots of the Tsakonian language and the people's relatively late conversion to Christianity and practice of pagan Hellenic customs. Tsakonians were noted as fierce warriors and were heavily recruited to serve in the Byzantine army based on their supposedly "Spartan" qualities.

http://arcadia.ceid.upatras.gr/arkadia/photos/culture/tsakonia/endim1.jpg

According to the Byzantine historian George Pachymeres, some Tsakonians were resettled by the Byzantine emperor Michael VII Ducas in Propontis. They lived in the villages of Vatka and Havoutsi, where the river Gösen River (Aesepus) empties into the sea. However, based on the preservation of features common to both Propontis and the Peloponnesian dialects, Prof. Thanasis Costakis thinks that the date of settlement must have been several centuries later.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9McHp3e3xG0/SetYuh7Om6I/AAAAAAAAO5Y/-ugLs3DVFeo/s400/0.jpg

Tsakonians in later time were known for their masonry skills; many were also shepherds. A common practice was for a small crew of men under a mastora to leave their village after the feast of Saint Demetrius and to return at Easter. They would travel as far as Attica doing repairs and white-washing houses.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG/730px-Pelopones_ethnic.JPG
Old ethnic map of the Peloponnese: Tsakonians in blue.

Tsakonian is found today in a group of mountain towns and villages slightly inland from the Argolic Gulf, although it was once spoken farther to the south and west as well as on the coasts of Laconia (ancient Sparta). There was formerly a Tsakonian colony on the Sea of Marmara (or Propontis; two villages near Gönen, Vatika and Havoutsi), probably dating from the 18th century, whose members were resettled in Greece with the 1924 population exchanges. Propontis Tsakonian appears to have died out around 1970. Tsakonian has no official status. Prayers and liturgies of the Greek Orthodox Church have been translated into Tsakonian, but the ancient Koine of the traditional church services is usually used as in other locations in Greece. Some teaching materials in Tsakonian for use in local schools have reportedly also been produced.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KKWUQyNL2rc/TDxZcjZr5AI/AAAAAAAAABc/rnGpC5n8eF0/s320/300px-Leonidio-Tsakonian-sign.jpg

El Palleter

07-04-2011, 10:55 PM

AinoMaria

07-02-2012, 04:36 AM

http://www.verbix.com/imag/map_uralic_languages.gif

It is to be debated whether these Uralic people can be considered to be "European", though. Many of them have never lived in Europe. The only notable exceptions can be made for Finns, Estonians, Hungarians and some Finnic peoples who live in far Western Russia. These have assimilated into European cultures / gene pools and lived on European soil. Can the Udmurts and Mari really be considered to be "European"?

depends what do you mean by european, at times it looks that as european you just mean the same as indoeuropean, then of course any finnougrics are not european lol, or, if you mean european by looks (what is european look?) then khanty and mansi arent, if you mean by genetics, all haplogrouos have originated outside europe, and n possibly has been in europe the longest since finns were(?) one of the first people in europe.. tough case huh?

so what is your european?

imo, udmurts are prettiest of them:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351669848207006&set=a.351669521540372.81485.351501284890529&type=3&theater

http://http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351669848207006&set=a.351669521540372.81485.351501284890529&type=3&theater

or komi:

http://http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=363431153697542&set=a.351610064879651.81467.351501284890529&type=3

http://http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=351610341546290&set=a.351610064879651.81467.351501284890529&type=3&theater

AinoMaria

07-02-2012, 04:42 AM

There is nothing particulary Eastern European at Baltic-Finns, rather Northern. East Europe is imo, Slavic domain of Orthodox faith(Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria etc). Volga-Finnics obviously are part of this group, due to their history and geographical location. Hungarians are rather Central European, or East Central European.

Anyway, Ob Ugrics and Samoyeds are mainly of North Asian origins. It could be said that Ob Ugrics emigrated from East Europe to Siberia and prolly originally were not that mongoloid but intensive admixing with especially Samoyeds have made them what they are now. I wouldnt consider neither Ob Ugrics or Samoyeds as European people at all. Only connection they have to Europe is that they live in Russia, but Russia hardly is typical European country, considering it borders North Korea.

i agree, and mongols attaced on quite many people in eastern eurpe, i think mordvins at least, and im not sure which other people

Hess

07-02-2012, 04:43 AM

I've been talking about this exact topic for years now, but no one seems to care.

It reminds of that scene in the Titanic where everyone is dancing, blissfully unaware of the fact that their ship is about to go underwater.

AinoMaria

07-02-2012, 04:47 AM

Ok... but they have predominantly Siberian ancestry in the male line (I did not study mtDNA). So it looks something like that:

1. Europe............Ural............<---- proto-FUs....... Siberia....... Samoyeds

2. Europe......Ugrics/ Finnics........... Ural..................Samoyeds

3. Europe......<----Finns and Samis.....Volga Finns and Komi.....Mansi---->....Ural........Samoyeds

4. Baltic Finns...... Volga Finns.... Komi...... Ural..... Mansi..... Samoyeds

Id like to note that if proto-FU split into Finnics and Ugrics in Volga, then the long isolated Komi must have remained where they currently are for millenia. Yet they do not look particularly European.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=363431153697542&set=a.351610064879651.81467.351501284890529&type=3&theater