Where can these Azorean Portuguese fit better -- France or Greece?

[Sikeliot]

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[BLUEU]

France.

[no limit lurker]

Some look more French, others more Greek.

[Newsboy]

A few look French, but most look pretty Greek to me. Among Azoreans, some Eastern influence is possible right?

[Sikeliot]

A few look French, but most look pretty Greek to me. Among Azoreans, some Eastern influence is possible right?

Azoreans are mostly mainland Portuguese mixed with Flemish and Dutch at times.

[Amun]

I am not familiar with the history if Azorean people but they defiantly lean toward Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

In my town people have trouble telling the (mostly Azorean and Madeiran) Portuguese from the Greeks here.. since there are more Portuguese, people often mistake the Greeks for being Portuguese.

I would know the difference though, at least part of the time.

[Newsboy]

Azoreans are mostly mainland Portuguese mixed with Flemish and Dutch at times.

Are you sure they are mixed with Dutch and Flemish? They don't look Dutch or Flemish at all. At least, not more than Madeirans or mainlanders. Just because many have Flemish/Dutch surnames doesn't really mean much. I've read somewhere that Azoreans are possibly mixed with Jews. Some Jews look Greek. Maybe that's why some Azoreans look Greek?

[Sikeliot]

Are you sure they are mixed with Dutch and Flemish? They don't look Dutch or Flemish at all. At least, not more than Madeirans or mainlanders. Just because they have Flemish/Dutch surnames doesn't really mean much. I've read somewhere that Azoreans are possibly mixed with Jews. Some Jews look Greek. Maybe that's why some look Greek?

Autosomally they don't seem to have that much Jewish admixture.

[Newsboy]

They probably don't have much (if at all) Dutch/Flemish admixture. I've never seen an Azorean that looked Dutch/Flemish. I live in a place where Azoreans are fairly numerous.

[Damião de Góis]

Are you sure they are mixed with Dutch and Flemish? They don't look Dutch or Flemish at all. At least, not more than Madeirans or mainlanders. Just because many have Flemish/Dutch surnames doesn't really mean much. I've read somewhere that Azoreans are possibly mixed with Jews. Some Jews look Greek. Maybe that's why some Azoreans look Greek?

Historically the Flemish and Breton influence is true (don't know about Dutch), as is the Jewish one, when the islands started to be settled. But it's from centuries ago and now azoreans plot genetically with mainlanders. Mainland descended people were always the vast majority.

Azoreans have diversity in their looks anyway, just like in the mainland.

[Newsboy]

Historically the Flemish and Breton influence is true (don't know about Dutch), as is the Jewish one, when the islands started to be settled. But it's from centuries ago and now azoreans plot genetically with mainlanders. Mainland descended people were always the vast majority.

Azoreans have diversity in their looks anyway, just like in the mainland.

Just as I thought. Both Azoreans and mainlanders don't look much different. Maybe the same applies to Madeirans. Yeah, Portuguese people as a whole have diverse looks (for such a small country). I know this sounds weird, but some look like Greeks. The Greeks definitely had colonies and settlements in Spain. But was there ever any Greek presence in Portugal?

[Damião de Góis]

Just as I thought. Both Azoreans and mainlanders don't look much different. Maybe the same applies to Madeirans. Yeah, Portuguese people as a whole have diverse looks (for such a small country). I know this sounds weird, but some like Greeks. The Greeks definitely had colonies and settlements in Spain. But was there ever any Greek presence in Portugal?

Not that i know of, and none of the maps i see about greek colonies show it:

http://apworldhistorywiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/0000.jpg/250722526/0000.jpg

[Newsboy]

Not that i know of, and none of the maps i see about greek colonies show it:

http://apworldhistorywiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/0000.jpg/250722526/0000.jpg

I read somewhere that Alcacer do Sal had Greek presence. I've also read that there were Greeks in Lisbon during Roman times. Lisbon was supposedly founded by Odysseus.

Are these true?

[Slycooper]

Are you sure they are mixed with Dutch and Flemish? They don't look Dutch or Flemish at all. At least, not more than Madeirans or mainlanders. Just because many have Flemish/Dutch surnames doesn't really mean much. I've read somewhere that Azoreans are possibly mixed with Jews. Some Jews look Greek. Maybe that's why some Azoreans look Greek?

The Azores is divided into three groups. The western group. The central group and the east group. There was strong flemish settlement in the central islands. Thats basically only place the flemings went. The western and central islands were settled most from Northern Portuguese while the eastern group by southern Portuguese.

[Lusos]

I read somewhere that Alcacer do Sal had Greek presence. I've also read that there were Greeks in Lisbon during Roman times. Lisbon was supposedly founded by Odysseus.

Are these true?


They use to trade with the locals.
And there presence appears to be logical.If they had colonies in other parts of Iberia.
Also much of what we know about our Ancestors was noted in books by the Ancients Greek's,later by the Romans.


Ophiussa, is the ancient name given by the ancient Greeks to what is now Portuguese territory near the mouth of the river Tagus. It means Land of Serpents.

The 4th century Roman poet Rufus Avienus Festus, writing on geographical subjects in Ora Maritima ("Seacoasts"), a document inspired by a Greek mariners' Periplus, related that the Oestriminis (Extreme West in Latin) was peopled by the Oestrimni, a people that had been living there for a long time; they had to flee their homeland after an invasion of serpents. These people could be linked to the Saephe (Saefs) or Ophis ("People of the Serpents") and the Dragani ("People of the Dragons"), who came to those lands and built the territorial entity the Greeks termed Ophiussa.

Land of the Ophi

The Ophi people lived mainly in the inland mountains of Northern Portugal (and Galicia). Others say they lived mainly by the estuaries of the rivers Douro and Tagus. The Ophi worshiped serpents, hence Land of Serpents. There have surfaced a few archeological findings that could be related to this people or culture. Some believe that the dragon sometimes represented as a griffin, from the original Winged Serpent, the Wyvern, or the Feathered Serpent (the traditional Portuguese Serpe Real), old crest of the crown of the Kings of Portugal and later of the Emperors of Brazil, is linked to local people or to the Celts who later invaded the area and could also have been influenced by the Ophi cult.

Ophi legend

A legend relates that on the summer solstice a maiden-serpent, a chthonic goddess, reveals hidden treasures to people journeying through forests. This maiden would live in the city of Porto. Festivities related to this goddess occurred during the solstice. During the rest of the year, she would change into a snake living under or among rocks, and shepherds would set aside some milk from their flocks as an offering to her.



Lisbon's name was written Ulyssippo in Latin by the geographer Pomponius Mela, a native of Hispania. It was later referenced as "Olisippo" by Pliny the Elder, and to the Greeks as Olissipo (Ολισσιπών) and Olissipona (Ολισσιπόνα). According to legend, the location was named for Ulysses, who founded the settlement after he left Troy to escape the Greek coalition. Later, the Greek name appeared in Vulgar Latin in the form Olissipona.

[Damião de Góis]

I read somewhere that Alcacer do Sal had Greek presence. I've also read that there were Greeks in Lisbon during Roman times. Lisbon was supposedly founded by Odysseus.

Are these true?

That Lisbon was founded by a mythical hero is just a legend. The first known native people of Portugal are the Oestrimni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oestriminis), so it's likely that they had some sort of village where today is Lisbon.

[Newsboy]

Yeah, that is more likely. Maybe there were Greeks in Portugal, but not during Ancient times, more Roman times. Are the Oestrimni the same as the Lusitanians?

[Catrau]

Meh.. Oestrimni is a latin name in a latin legends poem.
There were people living 1 km from my home for 40000 years ago and before them there were Neanderthals.
There are other ancient peoples whose names were carvend in stone and in travel accounts not in poems.

Greeks were in the peninsula all right, in fact they name it Iberia as the "island of rabbits" when they began to expand in the Med. There were greek colonies in the Med and a few in our southwestern coast.

[Damião de Góis]

Yeah, that is more likely. Maybe there were Greeks in Portugal, but not during Ancient times, more Roman times. Are the Oestrimni the same as the Lusitanians?

No, they are more ancient.

[Newsboy]

No, they are more ancient.

Oh, I see. Well, Portugal is one of the oldest countries in Europe. I doubt that any cities or towns there were founded by Romans, Greeks, or Celts. The Ostrimni have been around in Western Iberia way longer than any of those people and probably most cities and towns were founded by them. Phoenician colonies are possible though.

[Catrau]

They probably don't have much (if at all) Dutch/Flemish admixture. I've never seen an Azorean that looked Dutch/Flemish. I live in a place where Azoreans are fairly numerous.

They are mixed with Dutch, Flemish and French because they came to live there in times when there wasn't much people living there. They were also pioneers in those islands.

[Damião de Góis]

Oh, I see. Well, Portugal is one of the oldest countries in Europe. I doubt that any cities or towns there were founded by Romans, Greeks, or Celts. The Ostrimni have been around in Western Iberia way longer than any of those people and probably most cities and towns were founded by them. Phoenician colonies are possible though.

It's difficult to know who founded what or who made the first two or three huts in a place. I think cities closer to how we know them today came in roman times, even if they built them over 10 or 15 existing huts or over some ruins left by someone else.

[Newsboy]

It's difficult to know who founded what or who made the first two or three huts in a place. I think cities closer to how we know them today came in roman times, even if they built them over 10 or 15 existing huts or over some ruins left by someone else.

It definitely isn't easy to determine which people founded a settlement. The Roman times was when most of Europe had never been the same again. Many cities and towns became prosperous and flourished during this time.
After the Roman times, there was the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) times. I looked at a map somewhere that parts of Portugal were supposedly part of the Byzantine Empire.
Is this true? Any Byzantine remains?

[Damião de Góis]

It definitely isn't easy to determine which people founded a settlement. The Roman times was when most of Europe had never been the same again. Many cities and towns became prosperous and flourished during this time.
After the Roman times, there was the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) times. I looked at a map somewhere that parts of Portugal were supposedly part of the Byzantine Empire.
Is this true? Any Byzantine remains?

The Roman Empire was split between the Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire, but technically it was all the Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire survived the Germanic invasions and later changed its name to Byzantine Empire. They eventually changed Rome to Byzantium (Istambul). So, i don't think Iberia was ever a part of the Byzantine Empire, and if it was it was temporary and during the fall of Rome (Western Empire) and the conquest of Iberia by the Alans, Suebi, Vandals and Visigoths.

[Newsboy]

The Roman Empire was split between the Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire, but technically it was all the Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire survived the Germanic invasions and later changed its name to Byzantine Empire. They eventually changed Rome to Byzantium (Istambul). So, i don't think Iberia was ever a part of the Byzantine Empire, and if it was it was temporary and during the fall of Rome (Western Empire) and the conquest of Iberia by the Alans, Suebi, Vandals and Visigoths.

Well the regions of Andalusia, Murcia and Valencian Community in Spain were part of the Byzantine Empire during Justinian's reconquest. But you're right, it was probably temporary with all those invaders you mentioned.

[Atlantic Islander]

-----

Basically:


Historically the Flemish and Breton influence is true (don't know about Dutch), as is the Jewish one, when the islands started to be settled. But it's from centuries ago and now azoreans plot genetically with mainlanders. Mainland descended people were always the vast majority.

Azoreans have diversity in their looks anyway, just like in the mainland.


The Azores is divided into three groups. The western group. The central group and the east group. There was strong flemish settlement in the central islands. Thats basically only place the flemings went. The western and central islands were settled most from Northern Portuguese while the eastern group by southern Portuguese.


They are mixed with Dutch, Flemish and French because they came to live there in times when there wasn't much people living there. They were also pioneers in those islands.

All of the admixture happened when people first settled, and like alexdelarge said - the primary input was always Portuguese.

Natural disasters have also had an effect on the population - earthquakes, eruptions, landslides, floods, tsunamis, etc. Sometimes whole areas were wiped out. An example:


The village was destroyed by the July 9, 1757 earthquake, which became known as Mandado de Deus ("Sent by God"); the earthquake (which was located off the northern coast of Calheta) was responsible for the complete destruction of the homes in the municipality (from Topo to the parish of Calheta and the death of 1200 people on the island.)

That probably doesn't seem like many people, but even now there are only 3,972 people in that very same area.

That's one of the reasons there's been so much immigration to the new world:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_6UgE8uSmo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdV4SC7MMso

Azoreans have ended up looking no different than people on the mainland and generally show the same amount of diversity. The only exceptions would be the multi-generational Portuguese Americans - because most have mixed with other Americans - same goes for the Portuguese in Canada and in Latin America.

[guyinsf]

I think one or two can pass as french but overall they definitely lean towards more greek.

[Vasconcelos]

Well the regions of Andalusia, Murcia and Valencian Community in Spain were part of the Byzantine Empire during Justinian's reconquest. But you're right, it was probably temporary with all those invaders you mentioned.

Apparently the SE region of the Algarve was under Byzantine control, but it was only temporary and had no impact what so ever.

On topic, some look Greek, some look French, some look like they could fit in most places along the European Mediterranean coast. Until you pick them one by one and make a statistical analysis regarding these people you're all just doing blind guess work by saying "France" or "Greece".

[Newsboy]

Apparently the SE region of the Algarve was under Byzantine control, but it was only temporary and had no impact what so ever.

On topic, some look Greek, some look French, some look like they could fit in most places along the European Mediterranean coast. Until you pick them one by one and make a statistical analysis regarding these people you're all just doing blind guess work by saying "France" or "Greece".

Faro area right? Yeah, with such a temporary rule there wouldn't be any Byzantine impact. Maybe a few Byzantine remains but that's it.

And I happen to be one of those people that actually analyzed the people one by one. I focused on their features too, not just pigmentation. Some look French, others look Greek, and the rest look pan-Mediterranean (Portugal, Spain, S. France, Italy, Greece).

[Anthropologique]

Are you sure they are mixed with Dutch and Flemish? They don't look Dutch or Flemish at all. At least, not more than Madeirans or mainlanders. Just because many have Flemish/Dutch surnames doesn't really mean much. I've read somewhere that Azoreans are possibly mixed with Jews. Some Jews look Greek. Maybe that's why some Azoreans look Greek?

The Azores were once known as the "Flemish Isles." The island of Terceira was practically ALL Flemish hundreds of years ago.

There is some minor Jewish admixture here and there. That's why you find a few "exotic" types here and there. There are a fair number of blond and blue eyed Azoreans - Flemish and possibly N. Portuguese products.

[Anthropologique]

Most look French. A few possibly "Greek."

[Slycooper]

French.

[Anglojew]

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North Caucuses. Not kidding, some of them look it.

[Laubach]

3 to 5 people can look French, but the rest look like foreigners to me

[Atlantic Islander]

There is some minor Jewish admixture here and there. That's why you find a few "exotic" types here and there.

The "exotic" people as you say can also be found on the mainland. End of.

[HispaniaSagrada]

Predominantly non-Germanic French and if you say Greek you are imagining.

[Smeagol]

They would fit in Southern France

[guyinsf]

Many of these look a tad too eastern to be French.
When you look at most photos showing a group of southern french people there's always a few nordid looking individuals in the group because France has internal migration of their northerners going down to south and there's also a minor native nordid population in southern france. That's why these group shots could never be from France, they all look too much across the board "southern" and bit "eastern."

[Atlantic Islander]

Many of these look a tad too eastern to be French.
When you look at most photos showing a group of southern french people there's always a few nordid looking individuals in the group because France has internal migration of their northerners going down to south and there's also a minor native nordid population in southern france. That's why these group shots could never be from France, they all look too much across the board "southern" and bit "eastern."

It's fine to say they look more Greek, that doesn't matter - I think the topic is rather ridiculous since there's no need to separate Azoreans and people from the mainland, it only confuses people into thinking they are somehow genetically different when they aren't.

I voted Greek because they're also southern, however Azoreans aren't eastern influenced, unless you also think that mainland Portuguese are eastern influenced? If that's the case, then I don't care. :P

[bocc]

honestly i think that this forum has a very strange and idealistic view of what west meds look like

example of avg spanish/portuguese on ta

http://www.beachbelievers.com/en/files/imagecache/gallery_lightbox/beachnews_pictures/Michael+Cohen+shark+attack.jpg

greek/jew on ta

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FrmV3aerggA/TDz8exarEAI/AAAAAAAAAB0/SEBV3fGSj0U/s1600/postiga5.jpg