Runic artifacts in Hungary

[Szegedist]

I found this fascinating so I will post it here.

Szarvas inscription
Date: second half of the 8th century
Language: Hungarian
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Szarvasi_k%C3%A9s%C5%91_avar_kori_csont_t%C5%B1tar t%C3%B3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_Inscription_of_Szarvas.png

Translation from Hungarian:
1) Here is an iron [needle] against demon Üngür;
2) [Needle should be pricked into the demon; needle, needle, stab, poke, sew-[in]!
3) [Who] unstitches […];
4) Üngür shall not give [curse]; […], blast him, my God!’'

The Szarvas Rovas relic is from the 8th century. Consequently, the Szarvas cannot be in Hungarian or the Hungarians were in the Carpathian Basin earlier than 896. Archaeologist-historian Gábor Vékony supposed that the Hungarians appeared even in the 7th century, and he handled the Szarvas relic as an evidence: he read it in Hungarian.
Turkologist András Róna-Tas had an attempt to read the Szarvas relic in Turkic, but he wrote that his transcription needs more improvement.

The discussion about the period of the appearance of the Hungarians in the Carpathian Basin is between the groups of officially acknowledged scholars and it has not been concluded.



Nagyszentmiklós Rovas inscriptions
Date: 9th-10th c.
Language: The clear majority of the inscriptions are in Hungarian; however, there are some (probably Onogur) words, three Slavic words and one Alan word.

Bowl No. 8
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Treasure_of_Nagyszentmiklos%2C_bow_N_8_inscription .png
http://wiki.rovas.info/images/thumb/7/72/The_transcription_of_the_Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_in scription_of_the_Bowl_No._8_in_the_Golden_Treasure _of_Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_with_International_Phonet ic_Alphabet_%28IPA%29.png/700px-thumbnail.png

Bowl No. 10
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_bowl_1 0_shorter.png
It is in Hungarian. Its transcription is /ydβɣ/, its meaning is Refreshing.

Flat-shallow ladle No. 15
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_flat-shallow_ladle_15.png
It is in Hungarian. Its transcription is /βadu eːtky/, its meaning is forest food (=fruit)

Jug No. 5
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_jug_5_ Hungarian.png
It is in Hungarian.Its transcription is /ʃaβoɣ/, its meaning is Whey.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_jug_5_ Onogur.png
It is in Onogur. Its transcription is /xïmïs/ or /qïmïs/, its meaning is Whey.

Jug No. 6
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_Carpathian_Basin_Rovas_jug_6. png
It is a quadrilingual relic, there are text on it in Hungarian, in Onogur, in Slavic and in Alan



Silver mug of Kunágota
Date: the beginning of the 7th century
Language: (probably) Eurasian Avar

Silver vessel of Ozora-Tótipuszta
Date: the last third of the 7th century
Language: Ogur (probably Onogur)

Needle case of Jánoshida
Date: the last third of the 7th century
Language: Ogur (probably Onogur)

Drinking cup of Kiskőrös-Vágóhíd
Date: the last third of the 7th century
Language: Ogur (probably Onogur)

Bow of Környe
Date: the end of the 7th century
Language: Hungarian (the first known inscription in Hungarian)

Aethicus' alphabet
Date: middle of the 8th century
Language: Latin, but the alphabet originated from Hungarian language, according to Vékony.


Pot fragment of Torja
Date: 11th c.
Language: Hungarian

http://wiki.rovas.info/Szarvas_Rovas_inscription
http://wiki.rovas.info/Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s_Rovas_inscriptions
http://wiki.rovas.info/Main_Page

[Stears]

HAhahaha, The oldest Hungarian script is the Nikolsburg alphabet from the 15th century.

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolsburgi_%C3%A1b%C3%A9c%C3%A9

[Szegedist]

HAhahaha, The oldest Hungarian script is the Nikolsburg alphabet from the 15th century.

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolsburgi_%C3%A1b%C3%A9c%C3%A9

Not really.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Homorodkaracsonyfalva_rovas.gif
inscription from Homoródkarácsonyfalva, 1200s

[Stears]

Not really.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Homorodkaracsonyfalva_rovas.gif
inscription from Homoródkarácsonyfalva, 1200s

Please do not read books and articles of Magician-historians "scholars"(táltos tudós) whose maximal education was a simple grammar school. They find a fascinating fake ancient artifacts in every weeks. :))))) Their aricles were written for the lesser educated (misleadable) Hungarian proletarian people.

[Onur]

HAhahaha, The oldest Hungarian script is the Nikolsburg alphabet from the 15th century.

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolsburgi_%C3%A1b%C3%A9c%C3%A9
Here it is;

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/5122/clipboard0156.jpg


But you should read this to learn why there are only few records of runic documents;


Destroyed Magyar runic texts
As we have already seen, the Magyar runic script contained a sign for every sound of the Hungarian language, so that it could be perfectly written down. In 1985, Sándor Forrai wrote the following:
“…The writing of the Hungarian language with Latin letters was possible only with great distortion or not at all. The reader will always be a witness to the battle which our language fought against the intruding foreign letters.”

The cultural genocide began forcefully in the 10th and 11th centuries and has since continued. The Codices with runic writing and the carved runic sticks were burned; the Táltos were killed or incarcerated. Beginning with King St. István, all the kings – with the exception of King Mátyás in the 15th century !! - accepted the orders of the Roman Pope to destroy the so called pagan culture.

András I., son of Vazul (also known as Vászoly), 10 issued an edict in 1047, which, under penalty of loss of wealth and head, forbade the use of the “ancient Scythian national religion” and the pagan writing. Béla, the younger brother of András I., eradicated the old Székely (Sicul) Hungarian names expressing rank. He had the old names of families, castles and towns changed to the names of saints and had the ancient family libraries burnt.

Mátyás Jenő Fehér writes in his book Középkori magyar inkvizíció (The inquisition of the Magyars in the Middle Ages) that there were Magyar documents and books well before the Halotti Beszéd (Funeral Sermon) and the Mária Siralom (The lament of Mary).

Unknown hands removed the book, printed in Scythian letters, which István Szamosközi saw in 1592, from the Library of the Duke of Florence. His report is verified by Antonius Maginus, an Italian geographer, who described this book in 1595.

We know from Anna Walter Fehér that the correspondence in runic writing of Prince Ferenc Rákóczi II (who lived in exile in Rodosto, Turkey) with the Spanish Court, where it was filed, was later made to disappear.

The notes of the friar and scientist János Kájoni, dated 1673, dealing with the “Hun-Magyar Runic Script” disappeared as well.

The collection of the runic writing of Mátyás Bél, and Pál Király, literary historian and director of a teacher’s training college (20th century) also mysteriously vanished.

Balázs Orbán (1830-1890), the chronicler of the Székely lands, mentions in the section dealing with the runic inscription of the Énlaka Church, which was still visible then, that “two other such Hun-Scythian inscriptions existed in Csík, in the Csíkszentmiklós and Gyergyószentmiklós churches, but both were destroyed by ignorant priests who considered them pagan remnants.”

Bálint Gábor Szentkatolnai (1844-1913) was a Hungarian scholar who spoke more than thirty languages. His collection of runic writings was ordered to be burnt by Pál Hunfalvy (formerly Hunsdorfer), the chief librarian of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, in order to prove his thesis that the Magyars did not have their own writing prior to the adoption of Christianity. Researchers of the 20th century, János Jerney, Károly Antal Fischer and Károly Szabó looked in vain for these writings of the Hungarian ancestors in the manuscript department, where they were originally registered.

Adorján Magyar writes that the Austrian government hired a secret agent by the name of Stromler, whose duty was the destruction of the ancient Magyar cultural treasures. He was later appointed to a leading position under the name of Thallóczy in the Hungarian Academy of Sciences.

This list contains only a small portion of the runic writings which are mentioned in authenticated sources and which cannot be found in their original material form. Many more could have been stored in the 150 castles across historical Hungary, which were considered masterpieces from a strategic and architectural point of view and which the Habsburg Emperor Leopold ordered to be destroyed at the end of the 17th century.

http://www.rovasirasforrai.hu/Forditasok/Our-Letter-of-Ownership-ANGOL.htm

Your runic script was an indication of your pre-christianity era and it had to be destroyed to ease your assimilation into the christian culture. The same thing has been done to Germanic peoples and Bulgars before and it had to be done to you too. For example, almost all the Germanic runes we have today has been discovered from digging sites after late 19th century and there was none before. It was same for the Bulgar runes too. The reason for it`s nonexistence was the deliberate destruction of pre-christianity life.

Also, Hapsburgs was also aiming to destroy Hungarian history to reduce your identity to the status of your Vlach shepherd neighbors and keep you as their vassals forever.

[Onur]

Here is an example of Hungarian runes from the walls of a stable in Istanbul, written in 1515 by a stableman called Tamás Székely;


A young German scholar, F. Babinger found in the archives of the Fugger family a manuscript from the XVI-th century. It was in 1913 that he discovered the diary of H. Dernschwamm, who described his visit to Istanbul in 1553. At that time Dernschwamm saw an intriguing inscription on the marble wall of the Sultan's stables and copied it exactly.

Babinger, preparing the publication of the manuscript, supposed that the inscription was in old Turkish script, and sent it to the expert, Thomsen.

Thomsen saw at once, that this is not Turkish. He picked up the publication of Sebestyén and compared the signs. The inscription, dated 1515 was in Hungarian.

With the signs of the old runic script only slightly differing from the good cleric's alphabets, a horse-groom, Tamás Székely recorded, that he was there, in a delegation by the King of Hungary to Sultan Selim. He recorded, that they had to wait long before getting the audience.

This message of the bored horse-groom decided the question of the authenticity of the script. It made obvious that simple people, unschooled in Latin letters, had known and used the ancient script. It was impossible to cast upon the German Babinger and the Danish Thomsen any suspicion.

http://www.runewebvitki.com/Rovas1.gif

The above figure is the first part of the inscription.

Ezer ötczáz tizenöt esztendõben írták eszt. László király öt követét váratták itt. Bilaji Barlabás ketö esztendejik it valt. Nem tön császár. Keteli Székel Tamás írta inet Szelimb török császár itet bé száz lóval

The English translation is:
They wrote this in year Thousand Five Hundred Fifteen. They delayed here five deputies of King László. Bilaji Barlabás was here for two years. Emperor Nem tön. Keteli Székel Tamás wrote, he was locked in by Selimb Turkish Emperor with Hundred horses.

[Szegedist]

Please do not read books and articles of Magician-historians "scholars"(táltos tudós) whose maximal education was a simple grammar school. They find a fascinating fake ancient artifacts in every weeks. :))))) Their aricles were written for the lesser educated (misleadable) Hungarian proletarian people.

Off course, everything is fake, Szarvas, brick in Székelyderzs, Homokmégy-Halom inscription, etc. :picard2:

[Stears]

Off course, everything is fake, Szarvas, brick in Székelyderzs, Homokmégy-Halom inscription, etc. :picard2:

Yes, the artifacts with "hungarian script" which were claimed to be older than Nikolsburg are fake. Photoshop works.

This fake artifacts with rovas writing etc... The audience have never seen them in exhibitions because they simply do not exist.

Most of the uneducated people confuse the rovás writing with old turkic scripts. (because rovás developed from old turkic srcipt)

[Stears]

Good videos for Szegedi:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxlWM3NLGfs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHGaCiYCznw

[nelopj]

Yes, the artifacts with "hungarian script" which were claimed to be older than Nikolsburg are fake. Photoshop works.

This fake artifacts with rovas writing etc... The audience have never seen them in exhibitions because they simply do not exist.

Most of the uneducated people confuse the rovás writing with old turkic scripts. (because rovás developed from old turkic srcipt)

Lol. There are dozens of those starting from the avar age. Do you think super-mainstream historians like Rona-Tas waster their time to decypher photoshop fakes? :))


Please do not read books and articles of Magician-historians "scholars"(táltos tudós) whose maximal education was a simple grammar school. They find a fascinating fake ancient artifacts in every weeks. :))))) Their aricles were written for the lesser educated (misleadable) Hungarian proletarian people.

At least check the facts before you reply FFS.

[Szegedist]

Here it is;

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/5122/clipboard0156.jpg


But you should read this to learn why there are only few records of runic documents;



Your runic script was an indication of your pre-christianity era and it had to be destroyed to ease your assimilation into the christian culture. The same thing has been done to Germanic peoples and Bulgars before and it had to be done to you too. For example, almost all the Germanic runes we have today has been discovered from digging sites after late 19th century and there was none before. It was same for the Bulgar runes too. The reason for it`s nonexistence was the deliberate destruction of pre-christianity life.

Also, Hapsburgs was also aiming to destroy Hungarian history to reduce your identity to the status of your Vlach shepherd neighbors and keep you as their vassals forever.

It is depressing to imagine how much knowledge, cultural, historic artifacts, etc were lost because of things like this.

Sadly we are in a similar situation today, with everything that might question the official dogma being ridiculed, rejected without having any thought given to them, and probably even destroyed because it is just a "photoshop fake".

[Géza]

Good videos for Szegedi:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxlWM3NLGfs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHGaCiYCznw



Hilarious!

The second one is the parody of Szántay Lajos, one of the atlernative nationalist historians. I was there in some lecture of him in the late 90s.

By the way the most of sumerian human sculptures show mostly Alpine people. The gracil, short and stocky limbs and body with large head are typical. See that big round eyes and the round heads. But some of them seem be mixed with a gracil kind of Meds.




Please do not read books and articles of Magician-historians "scholars"(táltos tudós) whose maximal education was a simple grammar school. They find a fascinating fake ancient artifacts in every weeks. :))))) Their aricles were written for the lesser educated (misleadable) Hungarian proletarian people.


Are you "József Nádor" from the Kuruc.info? Your sentences are typical of him. Your informative work was great there, but your style sometimes can be so primitive and offense.



Lol. There are dozens of those starting from the avar age. Do you think super-mainstream historians like Rona-Tas waster their time to decypher photoshop fakes? :))



At least check the facts before you reply FFS.

Indeed, Róna-Tas is a serious scholar, not a nationalist shaman.

But. Those explanations of runic scripts from the 10th century and before are so forced for me. It could be many other different reading. We have better to say we don't know what those mean.

The Istanbul inscription and some medieval temple insciption can have a more certain reading.

In the other hand some of the early German runic inscription's explanations are very disputed too.

[Onur]

It is depressing to imagine how much knowledge, cultural, historic artifacts, etc were lost because of things like this.
You should consider yourselves lucky that you still preserve your original mothertongue. You know, Bulgars wasn't as lucky as you that they completely lost their mothertongue in favor of Byzantine imposed one after their conversion to christianity.

Your previous president once said that Hungarians owes preservation of their original culture to Ottoman reign and if Hungary wouldn't be ruled by them for 150 years, then maybe you could speak German today.



Indeed, Róna-Tas is a serious scholar, not a nationalist shaman.
Whats wrong about those scholars?

We had a nationalist shaman scholar in Turkey, named as Nihal Atsiz and he greatly contributed to the Turkic(sh) history in academical level.

These passionate people can be great scholars due to their self-determination and endless curiosity to investigate things further.

[Szegedist]

What needs to be done is the Hungarian academies, historians, etc, have a serious debate over the origin of Hungarians with more research, call it "Unified theory of the origin of Hungarians".

The fact is, the Finno-Ugric theory, Sumerian Theory, even Turanic theory was first propagated by and researched by foreigners.
Before these theories, the traditional legends were Hun-Scythian (read first chronicles).

[Onur]

What needs to be done is the Hungarian academies, historians, etc, have a serious debate over the origin of Hungarians with more research, call it "Unified theory of the origin of Hungarians".

The fact is, the Finno-Ugric theory, Sumerian Theory, even Turanic theory was first propagated by and researched by foreigners.
Before these theories, the traditional legends were Hun-Scythian (read first chronicles).
I don't think there is anything more needed besides reading tarihi Üngürüs and other early chronicles to understand your history. The rest of the proposed arguments about your origins are purely based on modern world politics.

[Szegedist]

Your previous president once said that Hungarians owes preservation of their original culture to Ottoman reign and if Hungary wouldn't be ruled by them for 150 years, then maybe you could speak German today.
.

I doubt it. Ottoman Hungary made up about a 1/3 of Hungarian territory, and most of it was not even ethnic Hungarian, but new South Slav migrants who fled to those regions. And if it wasn't for the Ottomans, then Habsburgs would most likely never get their hands on Hungary, as it was Mohács and what followed that led to Austrian takeover, sad but true, the Ottoman wars led to a decrease of Hungarian population, and an increase in Slavic and Vlach population (who were mostly migrants as was the case for Serbs and Vlachs, and Slavs which lived far away from the wars like was the case for Slovaks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#900.E2.80.931910

[nelopj]

Indeed, Róna-Tas is a serious scholar, not a nationalist shaman.

But. Those explanations of runic scripts from the 10th century and before are so forced for me. It could be many other different reading. We have better to say we don't know what those mean.


It's not a certainity, true, but there is a pretty good chance that those are in hungarian. For example, the Szarvas inscription was read in hungarian by several "mainstream" guys(Vekony Gabor, Janos Harmatta, Makkay Janos), not that "taltos" bullshit brought up by stears.

[Szegedist]

Good videos for Szegedi:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxlWM3NLGfs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHGaCiYCznw

You can laugh, but believe it or not, but not so long ago (second half of 19th century), the Sumerian-Turanian, Sumerian-Hungarian, etc relations theories were not that uncommon among serious scholars. Funny how things change so quickly.

[Szegedist]

The transcription of the Szarvas inscription was done by Gábor Vékony.

Who is Gábor Vékony?

Gábor Vékony (Csengőd, December 15, 1944 – June 10, 2004) was a Hungarian historian, archaeologist and linguist, associate professor at ELTE, Candidate of Sciences in History. He was an expert of the rovás scripts and a researcher of Hungarian prehistory.

He attended elementary school in Tabdi and secondary school in Kiskőrös. He graduated from the Eötvös Loránd University of Budapest (ELTE) with a degree in archaeology and history in 1968. He obtained his PhD in 1969. From 1968 he worked in the Kuny Domokos Museum in Tata. From 1970 until his death in 2004 he was an associate professor of the Department of Archaeology and the Department of Ancient History at ELTE.


Sounds like a 'táltos tudós', no? Maybe an atypical shaman? :))))
I am sure he knows more about this subject than all of the posters on this thread combined.

Vékony had read the Szarvas transcription as Hungarian, thus proposing it as evidence that the Hungarian-speaking people had appeared in the region by the 7th century. There are several critics of Vékony's theories and translations, most notably the Hungarian linguist and historian, András Róna-Tas. The debates were summarized by István Riba in 1999 and 2000: "many find themselves unable to accept Vékony's theory".

The key point of the critics has been that in traditional Hungarian scholarship, the existence of the Hungarian-speaking population dates from 896 (when the Magyars took over the Carpathian Basin ), while the Szarvas needle case dates from the 8th century. Consequently, either the Szarvas inscription is not in Hungarian or Hungarians were in the Carpathian Basin much earlier than the late 9th century. Róna-Tas attempted to read the Szarvas relic in Turkic instead of Hungarian, but wrote that his transcription needed further improvement. The issue remains an open question amongst Hungarian scholars.



I want to emphasize the bold, people find it difficult to accept because it goes against traditional beliefs.

[Stears]

Lol. There are dozens of those starting from the avar age. Do you think super-mainstream historians like Rona-Tas waster their time to decypher photoshop fakes? :))



At least check the facts before you reply FFS.

Again, don't confuse rovás alphabet with the similar old turkic script, which existed long before the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian basin. There are not exist older rovás writing than the Nikolsburg alphabet.

[nelopj]

Again, don't confuse rovás alphabet with the similar old turkic script, which existed long before the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian basin. There are not exist older rovás writing than the Nikolsburg alphabet.

Then the rovas fell out of sky? From where those people from Nikolsburg learnt it?

THe rovas probably has its origin in that old script you mention, wich existed before the hungarian conquest. EVEN IF NOT, and the modern rovas it's a humanist forgery, there are suspected hungarian texts in that old "turkik" script, like the Szarvas one, which are NOT forgeries. So the point stands.

[Szegedist]

Again, don't confuse rovás alphabet with the similar old turkic script, which existed long before the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian basin. There are not exist older rovás writing than the Nikolsburg alphabet.

Is this your automatic response? Read the rest of the thread.

[Stears]

Then the rovas fell out of sky? From where those people from Nikolsburg learnt it?

THe rovas probably has its origin in that old script you mention, wich existed before the hungarian conquest. EVEN IF NOT, and the modern rovas it's a humanist forgery, there are suspected hungarian texts in that old "turkik" script, like the Szarvas one, which are NOT forgeries. So the point stands.

Dear romani, It is simple old turkic script instead of rovás.

[Szegedist]

Then why they could not read it in Turkic, but read it in Hungarian instead?

[nelopj]

Dear romani, It is simple old turkic script instead of rovás.

We are writing in lating letters, in english language. I think you are confused with the terminology. Old turkik letters do not neccesarily mean turkik language. And the Szekely alphabet it's most likely closer to the avar alphabet of Szarvas, Nagyszentmiklos than the steppean turkik script. Avar rovas => Szekely rovas. Language of the Avar rovas is probably turkik + hungarian, while Szekely rovas it's only hungarian.

[Géza]

It's not a certainity, true, but there is a pretty good chance that those are in hungarian. For example, the Szarvas inscription was read in hungarian by several "mainstream" guys(Vekony Gabor, Janos Harmatta, Makkay Janos), not that "taltos" bullshit brought up by stears.

The mainstream scholars must publicate. They cannot say that "we don't know really".



We are writing in lating letters, in english language. I think you are confused with the terminology. Old turkik letters do not neccesarily mean turkik language. And the Szekely alphabet it's most likely closer to the avar alphabet of Szarvas, Nagyszentmiklos than the steppean turkik script. Avar rovas => Szekely rovas. Language of the Avar rovas is probably turkik + hungarian, while Szekely rovas it's only hungarian.

But the rather acceptable version would be the Szekler alphabet has comen with the Turkic Khazars. Some of the real Mongolid Avars had survived to the Conquest of the Ancient Hungarians.

However there is a fact as this alphaber was not an general Hungarian alphabet. It was used isolated. The revival of this seems so forced for me.

[Szegedist]

Stears, so tell us what is the origin of Hungarians? I have seen you all over the internet say the same thing.
Hungarians appeared out of nowhere in the Carpathian Basin?

You dismiss everything, so tell us what you actually think.

[Cern]

Please do not read books and articles of Magician-historians "scholars"(táltos tudós) whose maximal education was a simple grammar school. They find a fascinating fake ancient artifacts in every weeks. :))))) Their aricles were written for the lesser educated (misleadable) Hungarian proletarian people.

What's the problem the "Hungarian proletarian people"? Say this always!

[Szegedist]

What's the problem the "Hungarian proletarian people"? Say this always!

If you disagree with Stears, you are a proletarian cigány :laugh: