Appearances of Central Italians; where can they fit?

[Sikeliot]

Central Italians often get ignored in discussions of Italian phenotypes, but they are probably the closest to the ancient Romans not to mention that they have had the least outside mixture.

Central Italy here is going to be Tuscany, Marche, Umbria, Abruzzo, Lazio, and Molise.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5300948354_a443d9bda7.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4095/4910296866_d6e3ab2c3d.jpg


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5279555391_b74c79a2a6_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5287/5280160608_19489c9e70_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5048/5279555155_25de7b543f_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5205/5280160418_e342332b4e_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5045/5279555005_57622f1575_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5047/5280160288_117871ff78_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5279554899_84e92cfa51_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5084/5280160176_5fc672735a_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5210/5279554797_5d67f30381_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5085/5280160076_4b847441a7_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5280160026_56966b2d5e_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5002/5280159942_06d8735ee7_m.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5042/5280159854_80ea99e442_m.jpg

[Arbërori]

Southern and Central Europe definitely. Good looking people.

[Lusos]

North,Central and South Italy.

[Sikeliot]

http://imageshack.us/a/img685/8607/21818716766604328698461.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img405/7690/20544416768144661877739.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img687/4552/20575516766473662044814.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img845/1641/20806616766536995371835.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img43/6761/21635316766573995368112.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img849/5649/21812616766897995335711.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img716/5104/21812116766560328702873.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img209/2083/21629916768180328540883.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img38/2774/20803316768173328541561.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img405/6380/20751916768190995206451.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img441/1561/21625816766769328681961.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img844/6822/21808416766613662030821.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img502/9748/21704616766795995345972.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img402/4859/21601216766741662018031.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img831/6097/20710816766548662037394.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img542/7007/20682416766946328664265.jpg

[Sikeliot]

http://imageshack.us/a/img69/7338/21580016766444995381013.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img547/7118/21698816766934661998735.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img856/3273/21690416766843662007882.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img825/4758/21671716766918328667053.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img840/4136/20823016766754995350067.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img843/3290/21519616766513328707574.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img502/2548/20679816766876995337884.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img853/1093/20582016766462995379232.jpg

[Sikeliot]

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/504/21819416768311995194373.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img585/7233/20505116768300328528831.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img826/8955/20507116768269995198541.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img825/4201/20758716768342328524674.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img829/9496/20560316768305995194946.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img443/7020/20547116768216328537210.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img832/900/20819116768281661864059.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img255/9098/21509816768338661858343.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img826/3402/21594616768275328531381.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img10/3071/21641416768346661857519.jpg

[Sikeliot]

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5787/21651016768195661872639.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img543/2425/21534216768317661860410.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img823/6593/21682816768209328537924.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img703/4369/21541016768351328523716.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img715/4609/21700416768204328538453.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img203/4976/21542216768328995192681.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img819/235/21705516768222661869964.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img41/3759/21544516768231995202364.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img694/1463/21746616768290995196444.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img442/8207/21570616768295328529350.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img689/7730/20696816768237328535128.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img195/3158/20671516768323328526549.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img571/4863/20579916768334328525418.jpg

[Newsboy]

Many (but not all) Central Italians look like Greeks. The Greeks had a number of colonies in the Central part as well. Ancona and Chieti are Greek colonies. The former founded by Syracusan Greeks and the latter founded by Arcadians.

The region Romagna is sometimes counted as Central Italy because it has the latitudes of Northern Tuscany and Marche.

[Sikeliot]

Most of those pictures are from Abruzzo and Molise. I haven't done Umbria, Lazio, or Tuscany yet.

[Peyrol]

A few of them are obviously filipino and maghrebi immigrants.

Can you PM me the source of those pictures? I'm interested...btw, you can also take a lot of central italic look pics from the old Detfri's topic about abruzzese people.

[Peyrol]

Most of those pictures are from Abruzzo and Molise. I haven't done Umbria, Lazio, or Tuscany yet.

Molise is tecnically southern Italy.

Also Abruzzo is bordeline by a lot of people's opinion, since abruzzese dialect is tecnically a neapolitan variation and the region was part of the Kigdom of Two Sicilies.
Btw, Geographically is undeniable in the centre.

[Sikeliot]

Lazio


http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4646/rome2.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6885/rome1v.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4562/rome3.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4919/rome4.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4205/rome5.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5923/rome6.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8492/rome7.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5743/rome8.jpg
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7744/rome9.jpg

[Corvus]

Apart from some minor exceptions they look Southern through and through.
Cannot pass anywhere north of Italy, but can pass in Northern Italy.

[Sikeliot]

Molise is tecnically southern Italy.

Also Abruzzo is bordeline by a lot of people, since abruzzese is tecnically a neapolitan variation and the region was part of the Kigdom of Two Sicilies.

Genetically, they are closer to the central region and lack some of the genetic influences of the south, so I think for typological purposes they are central.

[Newsboy]

Most of those pictures are from Abruzzo and Molise. I haven't done Umbria, Lazio, or Tuscany yet.

Abruzzo and Molise? Well they resemble Northern-Central Greeks to me (Referring to features, pigmentation is irrelavant). Some Ancient Greek colonies were established there. Chieti in Abruzzo and possibly Venafro in Molise. The former founded by Arcadians and latter by Diomedes. They share the Adriatic sea with Some Greeks too.

[Peyrol]

Genetically, they are closer to the central region and lack some of the genetic influences of the south, so I think for typological purposes they are central.

Well that's for sure.

Btw, about Lazio, 90% of romans are non-native of the region.
Same goes for some tuscans.

This map show the percentage of non natives by single provinces.

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg

[Peyrol]

Btw, these are the regions considered ''southern Italy'' by our Costitution (not by me, but by our Costitution):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y6Mwb6CYhNU/TKynW8Oyd5I/AAAAAAAAAcs/BhlKOeJW3yE/s400/mezzogiorno.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Italy

[Sikeliot]

So many non-natives in isolated Enna in Sicily! How did that happen? Who is there?

[Peyrol]

So many non-natives in isolated Enna in Sicily! How did that happen? Who is there?

Romanians, Mauritius Islanders, Nigerians, Serbs, Russians, Tunisians...and a lot of other southern-italians (the map don't difference italians from foreigners, but only who is born outside the province).

[Newsboy]

Btw, these are the regions considered ''southern Italy'' by our Costitution (not by me, but by our Costitution):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y6Mwb6CYhNU/TKynW8Oyd5I/AAAAAAAAAcs/BhlKOeJW3yE/s400/mezzogiorno.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Italy

I didn't know Abruzzo was part of the South. It's slightly further north of Lazio. Northern Abruzzo is at the same latitude as Southern Marche. How can this be?

[Sikeliot]

Romanians, Mauritius Islanders, Nigerians, Serbs, Russians, Tunisians...and a lot of other southern-italians (the map don't difference italians from foreigners, but only who is born outside the province).

Why are they there?

[Peyrol]

I didn't know Abruzzo was part of the South. It's slightly further north of Lazio. Northern Abruzzo is at the same latitude as Southern Marche. How can this be?

The north/centre/south divide here don't consider geographical criterias, but historical and ethnolinguistical ones....abruzzese is tecnically a neapolitan dialect

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Italy_-_Forms_of_Dialect.jpg/400px-Italy_-_Forms_of_Dialect.jpg

and the region was part of the neapolitan Kingdom of Two Sicilies.

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/history/1848/italy_1848.gif


...btw, i personally consider Abruzzo a borderline central region.

[Sikeliot]

If there were no Ancient Greeks or Illyrians there, to me it's not southern.

[Peyrol]

Why are they there?

I don't know sincerely...but foreign born people in Sicily are less than 6% of the population...compare with the 16% in Piemonte...:sad:

[Newsboy]

If there were no Ancient Greeks or Illyrians there, to me it's not southern.

There were Greek colonies outside Magna Graecia. As mentioned before, Chieti, Ancona, and probably Venafro in the regions of Abruzzo, Marche, and Molise were Ancient Greek cities. Greek colonies were not limited to the South.

[Peyrol]

There were Greek colonies outside Magna Graecia. As mentioned before, Chieti, Ancona, and probably Venafro in the regions of Abruzzo, Marche, and Molise were Ancient Greek cities. Greek colonies were not limited to the South.

...and Adria between Veneto and Romagna, in the north....the city was a Syracousan colony and gave the name to the whole sea...Adriatic...''

[Newsboy]

...and Adria between Veneto and Romagna, in the north....the city was a Syracousan colony and gave the name to the whole sea...Adriatic...''

Yeah, the Adriatic sea owes its name to the Syracusan Greeks that colonized the Po Valley. Adria, Spina, and Cervia along the coast of Southern Veneto and Emilia-Romagna were most likely Greek colonies.

[Peyrol]

Yeah, the Adriatic sea owes its name to the Syracusan Greeks that colonized the Po Valley. Adria, Spina, and Cervia along the coast of Southern Veneto and Emilia-Romagna were most likely Greek colonies.

Wow, you know a lot about our history, since you're a new worlder asian. :eek:
Congratulations, btw...

[Newsboy]

Wow, you know a lot about our history, since you're a new worlder asian. :eek:
Congratulations, btw...

I'm not really a new world Asian. I'm a North American of East Asian descent. I've met quite a few diaspora Italians in my area. Ever since I was a kid, I was always interested in the history of S. Europe (including Italy). I haven't been to Italy yet, but would like to go one day.

[Peyrol]

I'm not really a new world Asian. I'm a North American of East Asian descent. I've met quite a few diaspora Italians in my area. Ever since I was a kid, I was always interested in the history of S. Europe (including Italy). I haven't been to Italy yet, but would like to go one day.


Well, 90% of italian canadians are calabrese or sicilian, so propabily you've seen a lot of southerners.
..and yes, we're a great country to visit....but don't commit the usual foreigner mistake to avoid northern Italy...we've a lot of historical places/landscapes too.

[Newsboy]

Well, 90% of italian canadians are calabrese or sicilian, so propabily you've seen a lot of southerners.
..and yes, we're a great country to visit....but don't commit the usual foreigner mistake to avoid northern Italy...we've a lot of historical places/landscapes too.

You are right. Same with the US. Many Italian-Americans are of Southern origin (Campania, Puglia, Calabria, Sicily mostly). The Italians I've met or seen in Toronto-ON, Buffalo-NY, and Richmond-VA are from those regions mentioned. I would like to visit the Greek-colonized places, in the South and Northeast. I would visit Piedmont as well.

[Peyrol]

You are right. Same with the US. Many Italian-Americans are of Southern origin (Campania, Puglia, Calabria, Sicily mostly). The Italians I've met or seen in Toronto-ON, Buffalo-NY, and Richmond-VA are from those regions mentioned. I would like to visit the Greek-colonized places, in the South and Northeast. I would visit Piedmont as well.

Piemont is a unknow jewel....see this...(the video is in english)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo

[Newsboy]

Piemont is a unknow jewel....see this...(the video is in english)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo

Nice video. Piedmont definitely seems like a place worth visiting. All the nice scenery in the video. It's rather cold, but I would be fine with it.

[riverman]

I don't think most of yhese people look Sicilian, how could they look greek

[Newsboy]

I don't think most of yhese people look Sicilian, how could they look greek

Not all Sicilians look Greek, that's a generalization based on ignorance. In fact many don't. Only the eastern coasts of Sicily were colonized by Greeks. Western coasts and inland had little to no Greek influence. Plus, it was mainly the Aegean Islanders and Southern Greeks that colonized S. Italy and eastern Sicily. Sicilians are a diverse people. There is no 'Sicilian look'. Sicilians can look anything from Levantine/Assyrian to French/N. Italian because the island had been invaded by numerous peoples: Ostrogoths, Lombards, Normans, Phoenicians, Greeks etc.

Therefore, it is possible for one to look Greek and not Sicilian.

[Sikeliot]

So, it is possible for one to look Greek and not Sicilian.

One can look Greek and not Sicilian if they look like one of the more "Balkan" or "Slavic" looking Greeks.

[Newsboy]

One can look Greek and not Sicilian if they look like one of the more "Balkan" or "Slavic" looking Greeks.

And that's what the Central Italians in your pics look like. They look Balkanic (Croats, Serbs, Fyromians, Albanians, Bulgarians, and Northern-Central Greeks). Geography could also be a factor. Both Northern-Central Greece and C. Italy are about the same latitude and share the Adriatic sea (Corfu and Epirus are the most South-Eastern limit of the Adriatic sea). Both regions are also very mountainous as well (Apennines in C. Italy). That's not the case with Sicily. Sicily's coasts are Ionian and Tyrrhenian, and it is only mountainous in the far interior. Sicily's latitude is further south than both C. Italy and Northern-Central Greece.

[Sikeliot]

Also inland Sicilians tend to be lighter than those on the coasts.

[Newsboy]

Also inland Sicilians tend to be lighter than those on the coasts.

From my personal experience it seems to be true. It probably has to do with isolation and geography. Inland Sicily is more mountainous than the coasts. Not that many foreign peoples have invaded this area during ancient times. Descendants of Italic tribes are very likely in the inland.

[Sikeliot]

From my personal experience it seems to be true. It probably has to do with isolation and geography. Inland Sicily is more mountainous than the coasts. Not that many foreign peoples have invaded this area during ancient times. Descendants of Italic tribes are very likely in the inland.

I mean they would also have Neolithic and West Asian genetic influence but it would be much more ancient and there would have been less recent MENA influence.

[Newsboy]

I mean they would also have Neolithic and West Asian genetic influence but it would be much more ancient and there would have been less recent MENA influence.

The Neolithic and West Asian influence is present, but it is certainly ancient. The West Asian (mainly Georgian) influence is present in continental S. Italy, C. Italy, Balkans, and Greece as well.

[Peyrol]

Nice video. Piedmont definitely seems like a place worth visiting. All the nice scenery in the video. It's rather cold, but I would be fine with it.

Yes, that's true, but is a great place to live and visit.

[kabeiros]

According to Dodecad's World 13 dataset:

Population.......N/Euro.....Mediter......W/Asian......SW/Asian
1.C/Italians - 22.2 - 42.7 - 20.5 - 14.3
2.Greeks - 24.2 - 37.7 - 22.9 - 15.1
3.Sicilians - 16.5 - 40.6 - 23.6 - 17.3

C/Italians are very close to Greeks and they look like it.

[Prince Carlo]

^ Well on 23andme Mainland Greeks don't really cluster with Central Italians at all. They actually plot somewhere between Sicilians/Cretans and South Slavs, whereas Central Italians are more Western shifted (atlantic).

[Prince Carlo]

Apart from some minor exceptions they look Southern through and through.
Cannot pass anywhere north of Italy, but can pass in Northern Italy.

Tuscans are equidistant from Cypriots and Orcadians on West Eurasian plots.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

Source Behar et al.

Now you have to explain me why they can fit in Lebanon, Armenia and Turkey, but not North of the Alps.

[Corvus]

Tuscans are equidistant from Cypriots and Orcadians on West Eurasian plots.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

Source Behar et al.

Now you have to explain me why they can fit in Lebanon, Armenia and Turkey, but not North of the Alps.

Gentetics may tell a different story, but they can`t pass north of the alps. You know it yourself if you are honest.

[Ades]

Many of them could pass as south Brazilians of Venetian or other northern Italian ancestry. Some are too "southern" though.

[Sikeliot]

^ Well on 23andme Mainland Greeks don't really cluster with Central Italians at all. They actually plot somewhere between Sicilians/Cretans and South Slavs, whereas Central Italians are more Western shifted (atlantic).

Mainland Greeks on 23andme plot similarly to Macedonians and Bulgarians.. I'll have to share with Albanians to see where they'd plot. Even Peloponnesians on 23andme are significantly "north" of Sicilians and Cretans who tend to cluster together with the Cretans being slightly more east, although some Sicilians are right with the Cretans.

[Peyrol]

Many ''can pass as southern'' simply because THEY ARE SOUTHERNERS, except people from Lazio.

[Sikeliot]

Many ''can pass as southern'' simply because THEY ARE SOUTHERNERS, except people from Lazio.

But their genetic structure is more similar to Lazio than to Calabria which is why I considered them "Central".

[Peyrol]

But their genetic structure is more similar to Lazio than to Calabria which is why I considered them "Central".

The phenotypes and the culture aren't derived from genotype....btw, you've some example of abruzzese's and molisan's 23andMe?

[Sikeliot]

The phenotypes and the culture aren't derived from genotype....btw, you've some example of abruzzese's and molisan's 23andMe?

I can try adding some.

[Prince Carlo]

From Abruzzo.

http://i.imgur.com/mRIifhm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/mS1W7M5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/rBBD9eF.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/e11U02s.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/7z79Qrp.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/a5oSX9W.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/XjYFXqk.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/hf91tPV.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/lbyLim5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/XjNgYnd.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/oHNBUHO.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/G1ke7T1.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/cgcyfQ8.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/E5nCN3L.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ORQmAkK.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

http://i.imgur.com/Ky8brc2.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/d6xF7Iw.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/nusSwSe.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/hJPUqxe.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/qhPz2PR.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/DmQ64wm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/yd5DEGz.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/mQuIF86.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/7u9biqq.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/dXTkBnP.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/vbxDmZa.jpg

[Newsboy]

According to Dodecad's World 13 dataset:

Population.......N/Euro.....Mediter......W/Asian......SW/Asian
1.C/Italians - 22.2 - 42.7 - 20.5 - 14.3
2.Greeks - 24.2 - 37.7 - 22.9 - 15.1
3.Sicilians - 16.5 - 40.6 - 23.6 - 17.3

C/Italians are very close to Greeks and they look like it.

Well, that's the Dodecad results. I'm not sure how accurate Dodecad results are. But I do agree that many Greeks (especially Northern-Central ones) resemble Central Italians. Not all Sicilians look Greek and vice versa.

[Prince Carlo]

From Tuscany.

http://i.imgur.com/4zYeTMR.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/zJn8hsd.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ofdmp9D.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ApsIvQS.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/B3IoAcJ.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/V2GXHow.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/e1Q2wa0.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/BbcHY2d.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/sAta0GB.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/XtkFdv8.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/7Kseb4T.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/c4NRBx2.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/TrWqe9g.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/5GzodmH.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/EGjEbXk.jpg