Post people who look like the different "historical" groups of Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

I.e. celebrities or others who look like how you imagine the Greek colonists to have looked like, people who look like the Normans may have, people who look Phoenician, etc.

and specify which province they come from.

[Anglojew]

The Normans were described as "grey-eyed" I imagine them looking like Sean Bean (which is why I think he's cast in roles like Game of Thrones);

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/sean-bean/sean-bean-20050218-26301.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I meant post Sicilian natives who look like each of the historical groups. :lol: But, I'll take it ^

[Scholarios]

http://wordsmoker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/1244724429413_f.jpg

Omar Sharif- Phoenicians (possibly Berbers also)

[Pallantides]

Siculo-Norman:
http://i.imgur.com/QZQA6Q1.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I'll try some Sicilians I think "match" each conquering group.

GREEK:

http://www.ivid.it/fotogallery/imagesearch/images/bella_marcella_cantante_009_jpg_gwzz.jpg

http://cdn.sheknows.com/articles/2010/06/lady-gaga-before-photo.jpg

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/West+Side+Story+Opening+Night+Arrivals+c7667QK2W_B l.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3381/3655436200_dda0d91972.jpg

http://www.funmaximum.com/movies/celeb-images/francesca-chillemi.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3615/3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg?zz=1

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/76/f673137a0b334fd4a26b8ee5147e680c/l.jpg



PHOENICIAN:

http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/tammy-pescatelli-cellular-movie-premiere-arrivals-0PtXEU.jpg

http://www.fighthype.com/images/content/pauliemalignaggi5.jpg

http://www.lanostratv.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/teresa-mannino.jpg

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/John%20Turturro-5.JPG

http://www.ivid.it/fotogallery/imagesearch/images/fortuna_corrado_attore_011_jpg_agiz.jpg




BERBER/MOORISH:

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Vinny+Guadagnino+Jersey+Shore+Cast+Wendy+Williams+ 0JDDGBCdNLHl.jpg

http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/2/Open/Getty/Nicholas%20Turturro/_derived_jpg_q90_410x410_m0/78902060.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

http://photos4.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/7/a/5/0/event_61651312.jpeg

[alfieb]

Siculo-Norman:
http://i.imgur.com/QZQA6Q1.jpg
:cool: my kinda guy.

More Palermitan Siculo-normans

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/S/Frank-Sinatra-9484810-2-402.jpg

http://www.ivid.it/fotogallery/imagesearch/images/gio_claudio_002_jpg_jusr.jpg

http://www.gossipetv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/marco-guercio2.jpg

http://livesicilia.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/salvatore_altadonna-624x300.jpg

http://www.rai.it/dl/img/2013/04/1364908183763DonniniRenzo_scheda.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6079/6127337020_b45b070c7f_z.jpg

http://www.siciliainformazioni.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ciaccio-400x200.jpg

http://isaac.guidasicilia.it/foto/news/personaggi/luca_bianchi_N.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I wouldn't call this one "Norman" looking. He looks pan-Italian, even fits in the Balkans.

http://isaac.guidasicilia.it/foto/news/personaggi/luca_bianchi_N.jpg

[quaquaraqua]

31894 Sinatra looks like Vasco Rossi 31895 I have just recognize it

[Scholarios]

http://www.hdwallpapersarena.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/tony-bennett.jpg

Tony Bennet- Dorian Syrakusiote.

[Sikeliot]

http://www.hdwallpapersarena.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/tony-bennett.jpg

Tony Bennet- Dorian Syrakusiote.

He's of Calabrese descent not Sicilian :p

Do you think my "Greek" looking examples above work?

[Scholarios]

He's of Calabrese descent not Sicilian :p

Do you think my "Greek" looking examples above work?

Yeah I was just saying, he would match with an Ancient Sicilian. He's Griko, btw.

let me review those Greek-lookers now...

[Scholarios]

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3615/3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg?zz=1

Very Greek looking.

But I do still think Ancients were not homogenous. Despite all the nordicism here about the Ancients, I do think blonder individuals existed in Ancient Greek world. However, I never see people post blonde people as "Ancient Greek"- even though it's true they existed in a minority of the population.

[Sikeliot]

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3615/3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg?zz=1

Very Greek looking.

But I do still think Ancients were not homogenous. Despite all the nordicism here about the Ancients, I do think blonder individuals existed in Ancient Greek world. However, I never see people post blonde people as "Ancient Greek"- even though it's true they existed in a minority of the population.


The woman you just posted, is also in my avatar. Her name is Bruna di Raimondo and she is from Messina. :)

I think most eastern Sicilians look very Greek. Then in the west you have Phoenician looking people, Norman, Moorish etc. Do you think I got the others I did right too, like Phoenician and Moorish?

[Scholarios]

I think it's always hard to talk about Phonecians and Moors as well...Both are not homegenous. Especially Moors... remember we found that these guys who conquered Sicily (and Crete!) were Iberians! That's native Iberian people - Celto-Romance, Phoenician, Berber, and some Arabs probably!

[Sikeliot]

I think it's always hard to talk about Phonecians and Moors as well...Both are not homegenous. Especially Moors... remember we found that these guys who conquered Sicily (and Crete!) were Iberians! That's native Iberian people - Celto-Romance, Phoenician, Berber, and some Arabs probably!

I don't think that is true. I am pretty sure it was people from Tunisia as well as Arabians and Syrians. But either way most of the Moors were expelled anyway. Their impact was small compared to say, Phoenicians in the west.

[Scholarios]

I don't think that is true. I am pretty sure it was people from Tunisia as well as Arabians and Syrians. But either way most of the Moors were expelled anyway. Their impact was small compared to say, Phoenicians in the west.

Well, there is dispute. The Cretan conquerors were definitely recorded from Al-Andalus at least

- Byzantine rule in Crete was interrupted, however, by a period of Arab domination that lasted more than a century. Arab raids had been common since the beginning of Islamic expansion, but Crete managed to fend off attempts at full-scale conquest. But early in the 9th century the island was invaded by a large force of Andalusian Arabs who had been exiled from Spain by the Emir of Cordoba after an unsuccessful revolt. (Europeans and Byzantines called them Saracens, their name for all Arabs and later for all Muslims.) The exiles captured and held the Egyptian city of Alexandria for a while, but were once again defeated and expelled, so in 827 or 828, they decided to give Crete a try.

and in Sicily, similar composition-

In 830 they received a strong reinforcement of 30,000 African and Andalusian troops. The Iberian Muslims defeated the Byzantine commander Teodotus in July–August of that year, but again a plague forced them to return to Mazara and then to Africa. The African Berber units sent to besiege Palermo managed to capture it after a year long siege in September 831.[3] Palermo became the Muslim capital of Sicily, renamed al-Madinah ("The City").[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Sicily#First_Arab_invasions_of_Sicily

http://www.travels.bowenplace.com/crete_2011/history_home/history_a_crete_home/history_06_byzantine/

And why not? Muslims from Africa and Iberia had been free-moving with each other for more than a century already.

[Sikeliot]

I'd never heard that before. That is interesting though. I do know a lot of North Africans must have Andalusian (i.e. converted Spanish "Moors") ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

Another Siculo-Norman from Palermo. He looks very French or Central European.

http://www.ladomenicadivicenza.it/foto/GEN/art_2919_1_misuraca.jpg

[alfieb]

http://www.blogsicilia.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Cracolici-Antonello-400x215.jpg

http://www.madonielive.com/public/news/Gandolfo_Pantina.jpg

http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides4/ta06/5ca/6fa/13458996359-tpfil02aw-31560.jpg

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/La+Bella+E+La+Bestia+Red+Carpet+pSFS01Xnt8Vl.jpg

http://static.bakeca.it/immagini/857/85724640bd1a407c80f171e548b9bf88.jpg

What a diverse place, Paliemmu, mia patria.

[Sikeliot]

Some "Phoenician/Carthaginian" looking people from Trapani and Agrigento:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3366194933_e6806f4010_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3585/3366989336_d7642b6782_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3366989176_52a61af255_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3366988436_dd41500604_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/5418692840_862bf8aa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5418086089_3d25c20450_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690196_6667de0e05_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5095/5418689820_00e003b3b2_m.jpg

[alfieb]

Famous model Eva Riccobono, from Palermo.

http://blog.leiweb.it/novella2000/files/2011/11/eva-riccobono5.jpg
Swarthy Sicilian from Southern Europe or Nordic Norman from the North Sea? You be the judge. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

^ I almost posted her but then I realized she is half German and so I didn't.

[alfieb]

A minor technicality!

http://s.peru21.pe/102/ima/0/0/1/0/4/104407.jpg

http://www.italianok.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/eleonora_abbagnato.jpg

First is Tiger Woods' model ex-girlfriend, second is a ballet dancer. Both Palermitan.

[alfieb]

Rita Borsellino, sister of the slain judge Paolo Borsellino, and a left-wing candidate for President of Sicily in her own right.

http://www.corriereinformazione.it/images/stories/borsellino-rita-02.jpg
http://www.corriereinformazione.it/images/stories/1138630-borsellino.JPG
http://www.pdci-ibarruri.it/rita.jpg
http://www.fascioemartello.it/images/stories/2012/02/ritaborsellino.jpg

Siculo-norman from Palermo. Very Germanic.

[Sikeliot]

^ She looks British.

[alfieb]

Looks like Queen Elizabeth, kinda.

[Sikeliot]

It'd be interesting to see her genetic results, to see if they come out more northern.

[alfieb]

I don't know about Scandinavia, but she (and the Queen) could definitely pass in Germany. If I saw Rita on the street, that's where I'd place her.

[alfieb]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YuIdkMxz46M/T4Qz1NFA5BI/AAAAAAAAAm8/3k0HdVRT4DI/s1600/Petyx.JPG
Stefania Petyx, TV news presenter, from Palermo.

Quite a noble look. While her surname is odd, it's indigenous to Palermo.

[Scholarios]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WI_NZn2ZmV4/TnnRdJ1BSHI/AAAAAAAAAHY/LP2zQm8zpG0/s1600/motorcycle_diaries+b.jpg

Gael Garcia Bernal: Can look like native Sicel, Iberian Muslim invader, Bourbon Spanish Colonist, etc.

[Sikeliot]

Gael Garcia Bernal: Can look like native Sicel, Iberian Muslim invader, Bourbon Spanish Colonist, etc.

Why would he? They were Italic, not Iberian.
For the record, most of the Muslims were directly from North Africa.
Iberians left only a negligible influence on the gene pool, probably the smallest of any invading group other than maybe Visigoths.

Not to mention in other pics he looks part Native American.

[Scholarios]

Why would he? They were Italic, not Iberian.
For the record, most of the Muslims were directly from North Africa.
Iberians left only a negligible influence on the gene pool, probably the smallest of any invading group other than maybe Visigoths.

Not to mention in other pics he looks part Native American.

Depends on your opinion on origin of Sicels and other Iron Age inhabitants. They were like Indo-Aryan people imposing themselves on native "Pelasgian"-type population (i.e. non-Aryans). He might look like one of those non-Aryans who become Sicels, just like Greeks look like non-Aryans who became Greeks.

As we saw from the post I made earlier, Iberians are not homogenous and Andalusians show influence more from Italy and Middle East than from North Africa...but of course it exists also.

Either way, he fits in Bourbon Spanish category if he doesn't fit in any else. I didn't know he looks Amerindian in some photos. Do you think no historical population in Sicily can have individuals who looked like him?

[Sikeliot]

Do you think no historical population in Sicily can have individuals who looked like him?

They may have, but from a genetic standpoint, there is not much of a genetic affinity to Iberia, so while people like him do exist there, I don't think it's a statistically significant part of the population. Less so, even, than Norman looking people I'd say.

[Scholarios]

They may have, but from a genetic standpoint, there is not much of a genetic affinity to Iberia, so while people like him do exist there, I don't think it's a statistically significant part of the population. Less so, even, than Norman looking people I'd say.

Well, I mean, what are the clades of R1b in Sicily compared to Iberia? Isn't R1b the 2nd largest group in Sicily and the largest in Spain?

[alfieb]

I really wouldn't say that "Norman-looking" people are a fringe group.

I just now went on the Italian wikipedia and clicked the first actress from Palermo I could find.

http://www.forumautori.com/tvsoap/foto/matilda-centoetrine-giusi-cataldo.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Well, I mean, what are the clades of R1b in Sicily compared to Iberia? Isn't R1b the 2nd largest group in Sicily and the largest in Spain?

It's more of an Italic R1b though.
Either way autosomally I've never seen a Sicilian cluster near Iberians.

And if you look at R1b itself it has a significant frequency of like 25%, but the rest of their haplogroups are J2, E1b1b, J1, G, and I. Spaniards are almost 80% R1b, so the difference is then large.

[Sikeliot]

I really wouldn't say that "Norman-looking" people are a fringe group.

Only in Palermo would they not be. But I agree with you.
I don't consider Greek, Phoenician, pan-Italian, and Norman types fringe groups, where I consider Iberian, North African, and Eastern European looking Sicilians to be fringe groups.

[Scholarios]

It's more of an Italic R1b though.
Either way autosomally I've never seen a Sicilian cluster near Iberians.

And if you look at R1b itself it has a significant frequency of like 25%, but the rest of their haplogroups are J2, E1b1b, J1, G, and I. Spaniards are almost 80% R1b, so the difference is then large.


automsomal evidence is always the wildcard, but still there is more influence than meets the eye when we look at Ydna. M269 is like 70% of Andalusian R1b and like 33% of Sicilian R1b . It's also almost like 90% of Basques. That last one makes me think its from Prehistoric "Mediterraneans" in addition to recent influence.

[Peyrol]

http://wordsmoker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/1244724429413_f.jpg

Omar Sharif- Phoenicians (possibly Berbers also)

This look indian or pakistani, not berber.

This is a unmixed berber.

http://159.149.15.22/lasestina/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/2008/11/leonard-berberi.jpg

[Scholarios]

Omar Sharif- i.e. Demetri Shaloub was a Greek Orthodox Lebanese though, not a Pakistani. Anyways, I said also Phoenician. It's a more likely.

But of course, Berbers are VERY diverse. Not just like that photo...

http://static0.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-3/photos/1358203185-tens-of-thousands-of-tunisians-celebrate-fall-of-ben-ali-regime_1726953.jpg

But I don't see many Spanish or Italians who look like those guys.. maybe only a few.

[alfieb]

This is a unmixed berber.


And yet you claim they aren't the same race as Italians.

[Peyrol]

And yet you claim they aren't the same race as Italians.

How many unmixed berbers there are today (2013)?

Less than 15% of maghrebi population...

[alfieb]

And how many Sicilians are unmixed?

[Sikeliot]

automsomal evidence is always the wildcard, but still there is more influence than meets the eye when we look at Ydna. M269 is like 70% of Andalusian R1b and like 33% of Sicilian R1b

Island wide it's not nearly that high. It's like 15% in eastern Sicily, in some provinces not even that. The only provinces it's high in are Palermo and part of Trapani.

I don't know what you are trying to prove but you're exaggerating for sure. Y-dna is one ancestor out of many. It hasn't even been conclusively proven that any of the original groups were Iberian, and as I indicated, Spanish conquerors didn't settle there much.

Prehistoric Mediterraneans may have been, if anything, more Sardinian-like.

[Scholarios]

Island wide it's not nearly that high. It's like 15% in eastern Sicily, in some provinces not even that. The only provinces it's high in are Palermo and part of Trapani.

I don't know what you are trying to prove but you're exaggerating for sure. Y-dna is one ancestor out of many. It hasn't even been conclusively proven that any of the original groups were Iberian, and as I indicated, Spanish conquerors didn't settle there much.

Prehistoric Mediterraneans may have been, if anything, more Sardinian-like.

I'm not exaggerating, I'm quoting the exact statistics I believe. I don't know what you are trying to prove. There is clearly R1b in Sicily and much of it is the same as in Spain or Southern France. You can read whatever you want into that... but it is what it is. And as I have said before the same thing, ydna is just one piece of evidence... but one very important and relatively objective piece of evidence about origins. We can speculate 20 reasons why it's there, but it is there and it's the 2nd highest group in the island.

[Sikeliot]

I'm not exaggerating, I'm quoting the exact statistics I believe. I don't know what you are trying to prove. There is clearly R1b in Sicily and much of it is the same as in Spain or Southern France. You can read whatever you want into that... but it is what it is. And as I have said before the same thing, ydna is just one piece of evidence... but one very important and relatively objective piece of evidence about origins. We can speculate 20 reasons why it's there, but it is there and it's the 2nd highest group in the island.

It's the second highest and sure, it is interesting to speculate but what matters is AUTOSOMAL dna and autosomally, they just do not cluster near Iberians and southern French. You are trying to create a link that is if anything a hypothesis.

Britain has much more R1b than Sicily does and they don't cluster with Spain and southern France, do they? And I could say to you that Greeks cluster closer to South Slavs than Sicilians do to Iberians and south French, so who's more admixed now?

[Scholarios]

It's the second highest and sure, it is interesting to speculate but what matters is AUTOSOMAL dna and autosomally, they just do not cluster near Iberians and southern French. You are trying to create a link that is if anything a hypothesis.

Britain has much more R1b than Sicily does and they don't cluster with Spain and southern France, do they? And I could say to you that Greeks cluster closer to South Slavs than Sicilians do to Iberians and south French, so who's more admixed now?

See.. that's the thing with you guys.. it's always about being "admixed" contest... I just wanna talk about genetics and history but you want to make it a contest. Ok fine. I'm tired of this.

[Peyrol]

And how many Sicilians are unmixed?

I don't know and i sincerely don't care, it isn't my issue since i'm not sicilian, i live 800 miles away from this little island.

If you want to be associate with those real north africans...good luck.


http://m2.paperblog.com/i/159/1590709/salafisti-marocchini-contro-la-crociata-franc-L-eENXDH.jpeg

http://www.panorama.it/images/foto/western-sahara-protest/1239947-1/Western-Sahara-Protest_h_partb.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/nonciclopedia/images/6/65/Marocchino.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-I0j3--huyRs/Ty-rB4-T6vI/AAAAAAAAAcw/XvZsJ1O6h4g/s1600/marocchino.jpg

http://www.telenovaragusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/HADDADICC-269x300.jpg

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_65/1150028289Na56D4.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bPyIylUzsbo/S6nLZTqw4sI/AAAAAAAADyk/SDwPdFaTmaY/s1600/islam_moschee_inglesi_ap08.jpg

[Sikeliot]

See.. that's the thing with you guys.. it's always about being "admixed" contest... I just wanna talk about genetics and history but you want to make it a contest. Ok fine. I'm tired of this.


It's not a contest about being admixed.. I am just saying that there is no substantiative proof that Iberians have contributed significantly to Sicilian genes. It is always possible, and it'd be interesting to know when/where the R1b came from, but there is nothing conclusive. Just like we don't know if western Sicilian J2 is Phoenician, Greek, or pre-Greek Neolithic.

[alfieb]

I don't know and i sincerely don't care, it isn't my issue since i'm not sicilian, i live 800 miles away from this little island.

If you want to be associate with those real north africans...good luck.

Selectively picking ones with high ssa admix does nobody any favours.

http://www.campobellonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Da-sx-Gregory-Bongiorno_Farhat-Ben-Souissi_Giovanni-Tumbiolo_Simone-e-Francesco-Ingargiola-1.jpg

http://www.sportup24.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mazara-casbah2-610x400.jpg

Tunisini in Sicilia

[Queen B]

I'll try some Sicilians I think "match" each conquering group.
GREEK:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3381/3655436200_dda0d91972.jpg

http://www.funmaximum.com/movies/celeb-images/francesca-chillemi.jpg

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/76/f673137a0b334fd4a26b8ee5147e680c/l.jpg



Τhose yes, the rest, no.

[Peyrol]

Selectively picking ones with high ssa admix does nobody any favours.

http://www.campobellonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Da-sx-Gregory-Bongiorno_Farhat-Ben-Souissi_Giovanni-Tumbiolo_Simone-e-Francesco-Ingargiola-1.jpg

http://www.sportup24.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mazara-casbah2-610x400.jpg

Tunisini in Sicilia


Ceeeerto...i vu cumprà sono bianchi come il latte appena munto...vieni qui a fare una notte, o un giorno, come Dio comanda a Torino in mezzo a 60,000 maghrebini e poi ne riparliamo, dopo...

[Sikeliot]

Τhose yes, the rest, no.

What is non-Greek about the others?

[Queen B]

What is non-Greek about the others?

1st. Very distant (plus relatively small) eyes, plus very flat nose. The combination here is rare.

2nd. Gaga looks Jewish.

3rd. Even though he could pass, I would never guess him as Greek. He looks much more Balkanese/Albanian (square head)

6th. She is beautiful, yet, I find the combination of her feautures more symmetrical. Greeks tend to have sharper feautures than this. She doesn't look out of place, but she looks more Italian than everything else.

[Sikeliot]

I think you have the most selective criteria of anyone I know for who can, and can't pass as Greek. :lol:

[alfieb]

She voted that I can, so I don't care about anything else. :coffee:

[Sikeliot]

She voted that I can, so I don't care about anything else. :coffee:

And she thinks I can't :lol:

[wvwvw]

http://static.igossip.com/photos_2/december_2011/ancient_greek_terracotta_statue_totally_looks_like _mr_bean.jpg

[Queen B]

I think you have the most selective criteria of anyone I know for who can, and can't pass as Greek. :lol:
I have lived in 6 different cities of Greece so far, and I have worked in tourism sector, I have a very observant eye, can you blame me for that?
It's not selective criteriah, is what I m used to see and what not.

And she thinks I can't :lol:
You look more Western. I have told you that, even before knowing the photos you posted that are yours.

[kabeiros]

Sicilian R1b is similar to S/Italian R1b:

S/Italians
R1b-M269= 1.0 (Balkanic/Anatolian)
R1b-L23 = 5.0 (Balkanic/Anatolian)
R1b-L11 = 1.0 (West European)
R1b-U106= 1.0 (Germanic)
R1b-S116= 4.0 (Celtic)
R1b-U152= 11.0 (Italo-Celtic)

[Sikeliot]

You look more Western. I have told you that, even before knowing the photos you posted that are yours.

I don't think I do. But then again some people on here don't even think I look Sicilian, so what can I say.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilian R1b is similar to S/Italian R1b:

S/Italians
R1b-M269= 1.0 (Balkanic/Anatolian)
R1b-L23 = 5.0 (Balkanic/Anatolian)
R1b-L11 = 1.0 (West European)
R1b-U106= 1.0 (Germanic)
R1b-S116= 4.0 (Celtic)
R1b-U152= 11.0 (Italo-Celtic)


That I was never debating because I knew that the Sicels, an Italic group, were one of the early groups on the island. I was questioning, rather, Iberian contribution to the gene pool which I believe to be very small.

Is the J2 more similar to Levantine or to Greek J2?

[alfieb]

R1b-S116= 4.0 (Celtic)

That's me, although my y-great-grandfather was not Sicilian.

[Sikeliot]

In some parts of rural Sicily you do see some "Celtic" looking people and it makes me wonder if they are a good representation of how the Sicels may have looked. I wouldn't attribute these specific individuals to Normans because Normans would be more Germanic than Celtic.

[alfieb]

In some parts of rural Sicily you do see some "Celtic" looking people and it makes me wonder if they are a good representation of how the Sicels may have looked. I wouldn't attribute these specific individuals to Normans because Normans would be more Germanic than Celtic.
Probably, but not entirely so. The Bretons were said to be involved in the Norman DNA.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

I think you have the most selective criteria of anyone I know for who can, and can't pass as Greek. :lol:

She's expert......she select it though how she likes and how she want it to.

[Queen B]

I don't think I do. But then again some people on here don't even think I look Sicilian, so what can I say.

I can't talk about Sicilians, since I m not familiar with them, I can only talk about Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

I'll also mention a group that gets forgotten in the history of the east of the island are the Assyrians. The Greeks brought Assyrians there to defend the coast due to their advanced fighting techniques.

Also, there are probably many assimilated Jews as well.



Probably, but not entirely so. The Bretons were said to be involved in the Norman DNA.

That might explain it. But I am thinking of rural people throughout the island, including in places Normans didn't have much presence.

[Sunphq]

Otzi:
http://www.sott.net/image/image/s6/120498/full/Otzi_the_iceman.jpg



And yet you claim they aren't the same race as Italians.

Lampedusa - they're not East African and they certainly aren't West. I cherrypicked all of them. And then cherrypicked the Italian officers.

I also cherrypicked all these Tunisians in these photos. http://www.demotix.com/news/1727059/tens-thousands-tunisians-celebrate-fall-ben-ali-regime#media-1727040

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/29/article-1371204-0B60868B00000578-278_964x638.jpg

[alfieb]

As you said - Italians.

The average Sicilian doesn't look like the police officers.

[aja675]

The girl on the left looks Berber, and the one on right Norman:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4779801597_404b219668.jpg

[Sikeliot]

The girl on the left looks Berber, and the one on right Norman:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4779801597_404b219668.jpg

They are probably genetically similar too despite the physical difference. Isn't it interesting how that works?

[aja675]

The one on the left reminds me of Loreen, who is a Swede born to Moroccan Berber parents:

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31700000/Loreen-loreen-31796129-600-840.jpg

[bocc]

And she thinks I can't :lol:

Obviously I don't live in Greece but I spent over a month there and I don't think you can really, either. You look pretty damn western to me. I think you just strongly identify with east-meds for some reason.

Have you been to Europe?

[Sikeliot]

I think you just strongly identify with east-meds for some reason.

Because a significant portion of my ancestry is from Sicily and Calabria. I identify most strongly with that part of my ancestry.

If I look western it's because of my Portuguese and Sardinian sides, but I don't think I look either of those ethnicities. I have met many Portuguese people and never met any who look like me, but I have met many Sicilians and Greeks who do.

[bocc]

Because a significant portion of my ancestry is from Sicily and Calabria.

If I look western it's because of my Portuguese and Sardinian sides, but I don't think I look either of those ethnicities.

I'm just saying that a lot of pictures posted of some ethnic groups on here, particularly Iberia are very different from what I saw with my own two eyes. If you went there you might change your opinion on how western you look.

[Sikeliot]

I'm just saying that a lot of pictures posted of some ethnic groups on here, particularly Iberia are very different from what I saw with my own two eyes. If you went there you might change your opinion on how western you look.

That's your opinion. Most people on here think I look Sicilian and Greek, not Iberian. Not like I'd have a problem with looking Iberian but I just don't think I do.

[alfieb]

Yeah, Sikeliot looks more Greek/Eastern Sicilian than anything else to me, just as Bocc looks more Neapolitan.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah, Sikeliot looks more Greek/Eastern Sicilian than anything else to me, just as Bocc looks more Neapolitan.

Exactly. I don't think I look "western" at all or at least I am not perceived as such by most. I've been told I can even pass as Assyrian.

For some reason though, mark who posts here thinks I can pass better as British than as Sicilian, so who knows. Everyone has their own opinion, some are just more.. accurate, than others.

[Sikeliot]

By the way here are people from the province my family comes from -- http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77283

I don't see why I wouldn't fit amongst them?

[alfieb]

He's from New York. He probably associates the "Sicilian look" with people like me. :coffee:

[Sikeliot]

He's from New York. He probably associates the "Sicilian look" with people like me. :coffee:

I don't think that's what it is. I think he sees my Portuguese side in me more than my Sicilian side. For some reason, he interprets my look as Iberian.. since he once told me even he fits in Greece better than me.

EDIT: I was talking about bocc. mark thinks I'm lighter/more western looking in features than how he perceives Sicilians.

[Prince Carlo]

:picard2:

Funny thread. The normans were French, so people with nordic appearance would have been quite atypical. :coffee:

We don't know how the ancient Greeks and the ancient Phoenicians really looked like. :bored:

The moors were not a homogeneus bunch and modern North African-Saudi Arabians-Levantines are a bunch of mulattos. :thumb001:

[Peyrol]

Wow, how many people travelled into the Atlas, the mauritani Sahara and the Lybic desert to see so many ''berbers''...really amazing.

[Peyrol]

:picard2:

Funny thread. The normans were French, so people with nordic appearance would have been quite atypical. :coffee:

We don't know how the ancient Greeks and the ancient Phoenicians really looked like. :bored:

The moors were not a homogeneus bunch and modern North African-Saudi Arabians-Levantines are a bunch of mulattos. :thumb001:


Figuriamoci...sugli antroforum i marocchi sono più bianchi del latte appena munto...

[Peyrol]

The girl on the left looks Berber, and the one on right Norman:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4779801597_404b219668.jpg

This picture wasn't taken in Sicilia but in the italian festival of Laguna, state of Santa Catarina (Brasil).

[Prince Carlo]

Figuriamoci...sugli antroforum i marocchi sono più bianchi del latte appena munto...

Alfie thinks that 7-8% mongoloid Finns look Chinese while 20-25% SSA Moroccans don't show nig traits. You gotta love savants from New Jerseyyyyy.

[alfieb]

Figuriamoci...sugli antroforum i marocchi sono più bianchi del latte appena munto...

Si vuole essere ignorante, è un tuo diritto.


The normans were French, so people with nordic appearance would have been quite atypical. :coffee:

Venite a Palermo. Abbiamo molti popoli "nordici" o "germanici".

[Peyrol]

Si vuole essere ignorante, è un tuo diritto.



Venite a Palermo. Abbiamo molti popoli "nordici" o "germanici".

A parte che lo spelling corretto sarebbe ''se si vuole essere ignoranti, è un proprio diritto'', ma sorvoliamo...

...tu vivi in una città con 60,000 maghrebini/nordafricani? Io si, e qui ci sono anche molti siciliani (come ben sai)...si riconoscono l'un l'altro da due miglia distanti...poi boh, se preferite che vi dica che siete uguali, ve lo scrivo e timbro anche, per me non è affatto un problema, neh...

[alfieb]

Alfie thinks that 7-8% mongoloid Finns look Chinese while 20-25% SSA Moroccans don't show nig traits. You gotta love savants from New Jerseyyyyy.
I didn't say that Moroccans don't show black traits, and I didn't say that Finns look Chinese.

Both are predominantly white, with non-white admixture. Same for Portuguese.

[alfieb]

A parte che lo spelling corretto sarebbe ''se si vuole essere ignoranti, è un proprio diritto'', ma sorvoliamo...
Mi dispiace. Grazie. Italiano non è la mia lingua madre.


...tu vivi in una città con 60,000 maghrebini/nordafricani? Io si, e qui ci sono anche molti siciliani (come ben sai)...si riconoscono l'un l'altro da due miglia distanti...poi boh, se preferite che vi dica che siete uguali, ve lo scrivo e timbro anche, per me non è affatto un problema, neh...

Io vivo in un quartiere che è per lo più arabo. Il sopranome è "Beirut". Io ho dei parenti in Mazzara (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazara_del_Vallo#L.27immigrazione).

[Peyrol]

Mi dispiace. Grazie. Italiano non è la mia lingua madre.



Io vivo in un quartiere che è per lo più arabo. Il sopranome è "Beirut". Io ho dei parenti in Mazzara (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazara_del_Vallo#L.27immigrazione).

I marocchini non sono arabi, nè tantomeno libanesi (''Beirut'' è la capitale del libano).
Il marocchino medio è metà berbero, un quarto arabo e un quarto negro subsahariano, e la composizione razziale è questa da oltre mille anni, cioè da quando gli Almoravidi importarono coloni yemeniti e schiavi dall'attuale Senegal nella regione.
I berberi ''bianchi'' come Zidane sono si e no l'8-10% della popolazione marocchina attuale, sebbene nel remoto passato fossero la maggioranza.

[alfieb]

Why so condescending? Even a fool would know that Beirut is the capital of Lebanon. :picard1:

My point is that where I live, there are many Middle Eastern people, and I consider them to be as white as you or I. If you wish to expose my own ignorance, do not do so while using Zidane as an example when discussing Moroccans, as he is an Algerian Kabyle. They do not exist in Morocco.

[Peyrol]

Why so condescending? Even a fool would know that Beirut is the capital of Lebanon. :picard1:

My point is that where I live, there are many Middle Eastern people, and I consider them to be as white as you or I. If you wish to expose my own ignorance, do not do so while using Zidane as an example when discussing Moroccans, as he is an Algerian Kabyle. They do not exist in Morocco.

Lo so, ma se è per questo sei tu che hai iniziato facendo un minestrone e tirando in mezzo mediorientali e berberi, che non c'entrano una beneamata minchia l'uno con l'altro, se non in parte per religione lingua.

Comunque boh, facciamo così: se volete che sostenga che un magrebino negro è la stessa cosa di un catanese per me va bene, vi firmo anche un trattato, tanto sinceramente a me non cambia niente.
Ma questo non rende la cosa vera, medius Fidius, me Dius Fidius, mediusfidius...!

[alfieb]

Vade ad Dominum. :lol:

Berberi non sono lo stesso popolo come me. Né sono lo russi. Razza è un sogetto diverso.

[wvwvw]

I think Sikeliot has a pan-Mediterranean look. He could easily fit in Greece and even more Eastern than that. He could fit from Portugal to Cyprus and Lebanon and even Caucasus. Also there are many Greeks who phenotypically do look West Med so naturally there is some overlap with Western Mediterraneans.

[Sikeliot]

I think Sikeliot has a pan-Mediterranean look. He could easily fit in Greece and even more Eastern than that. He could fit from Portugal to Cyprus and Lebanon and even Caucasus. Also there are many Greeks who phenotypically do look West Med so naturally there is some overlap with Western Mediterraneans.

That's actually a good thing. It means I can travel anywhere and I won't be treated any differently for not being from there. ;)

[Sunphq]

As you said - Italians.

The average Sicilian doesn't look like the police officers.

They probably are Sicilian, I'm pretty sure most of the officers on Lampedusa come from Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

I've always been under the impression that coastal North Africans can often look white, whereas those from further south in their respective countries will be visibly more mixed (i.e. southern Egyptians, southern Moroccans).

[Peyrol]

I've always been under the impression that coastal North Africans can often look white, whereas those from further south in their respective countries will be visibly more mixed (i.e. southern Egyptians, southern Moroccans).

No, they don't since 1000 A.D.
Except some few kabiles in Algeria (less than 200,000 people).

[Sikeliot]

So people like this are rare?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8246/8491341875_d827b05d3b_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8088/8491341521_9cb2f5f603_m.jpg

[Peyrol]

Lolwut, i wish they were like those you posted :lol:

Never seen one in my entire life.

[Newsboy]

Lolwut, i wish they were like those you posted :lol:

Never seen one in my entire life.

I think the coastal North Africans that look white are rather rare. Besides some coastal Algerians, I think Tunisians can look white as well. It's close to Sicily and Sardinia. What do you think?

[Prince Carlo]

Hearus is a mental. People should stop taking him seriously.

North Africans:

http://www.maroccoggi.it/images/stories/Marocchini%20in%20Italia.jpg

http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/mideast-egypt-protest-09bfff18fc39bd4b.jpg

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image/KH108_Mideast_Egypt_Protest.jpg

Levantines:

http://www.enduringamerica.com/storage/blog-post-images/SYRIA%2014-10-12%20BEIRUT%20SALAFIST%20PROTEST%20---%20USED%2016-10-12.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1350373321498

http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.348580.1299845041!/image/986104777.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/986104777.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/beirut-rally-hezbollah-film-337/thousands-march-beirut-september-105.jpg

[Peyrol]

^

Grazie Josep..


some more real northafricans:

http://www.ilpost.it/files/2011/05/114254517_10.jpg

http://static.tuttogratis.it/628X0/attualita/tuttogratis/it/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Marocco.jpg

http://tg24.sky.it/static/contentimages/original/sezioni/tg24/mondo/2011/01/29/manifestazioni_egitto_europa_manifestazioni_egitto _parigi_getty4.jpg

http://motoviaggio.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/manifestazione-marocco-02.jpg?w=500&h=453

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MeBU4ahb0kI/TaNR_4mySMI/AAAAAAAAAlU/Js6Yefwv5v4/s1600/immigrati.jpg

[Portukalos]

Why so condescending? Even a fool would know that Beirut is the capital of Lebanon. :picard1:

My point is that where I live, there are many Middle Eastern people, and I consider them to be as white as you or I. If you wish to expose my own ignorance, do not do so while using Zidane as an example when discussing Moroccans, as he is an Algerian Kabyle. They do not exist in Morocco.

Lol , they do exist. In North Morocco , people barely show any SSA admixture , especially Rifians. It's just that there are freaks here so you cannot change their mind just don't argue with them , always postraying South Moroccans or Sahrawis (at times I can even see Yemenis in their compilation) as real and only representative Lol.


No, they don't since 1000 A.D.
Except some few kabiles in Algeria (less than 200,000 people).

Whisky too much . Kabyles numbered in between 6 to 8 millions , lolz .

[Peyrol]

Lol , they do exist. In North Morocco , people barely show any SSA features , especially Rifians. It's just that there are alot of freaks here so you cannot change their mind just don't argue with them , always postraying South Moroccans or even Sahrawis (at times I can even see Yemenis in their compilation) as real and only representative Lol.

Sure, i live with 600,000 moroccans in my country and i don't know their appearence.
I can understand your northafrican obsession to pass as european-related, but...no, you aren't.

I live with 58,000 of your shitty pickpocketers, muggers, welfare suckers and rapists countrymen in my city and you're the farthest thing ever existed from the european culture.

And there isn' any ''north/south'' division in Morocco...maybe east/west, at least :lol:

http://joshberer.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/morocco-ethnicities-1973.jpg

[Portukalos]

There is , people in North Morocco have their own distinct terrority sphere history and identity . I never said they look European , they just don't look as very very dark and so much "Nigga" (using your vocabulary) admixed as you portray all NAs . They are much more within the South Mediterranean phylum.
I can understand that you afraid of your Northern European brothas to link you up with non-Euro Mediterraneans. Even in Italy , you claim you are Nordic babies and want the sicession with South Italy :lol:

[Peyrol]

There is , people in North Morocco have their own distinct terrority sphere history and identity . I never said they look European , they just don't look as very very dark and so much "Nigga" (using your vocabulary) admixed as you portray all NAs . They are much more within the Mediterranean phylum.

Ok, i sincerley don't mind about the vu cumprà stuffs, but if you say me this, then it must be true and a very important dogma for the World.


I can understand that you afraid of your Northern European brothas to link you up with non-Euro Mediterraneans. Even in Italy , you claim you are Nordic babies and want the sicession with South Italy :lol:

We aren't nordic and we don't want to be nordic (not i, at least) , and neither ''mediterranean'' since med sea isn't present in Piemont since mesozhoic.
I'm simply a cisalpine, that's all.
Nordicness is for pussies and for people with a deep lack of self-identity and a totally alien concept for ''Northern Italy'' (also ''northern Italy'' is a very dubious term, since even here we've a lot of internal cultural/linguistical variations among us).

[Peyrol]

Btw, this thread isn't about the raving of a random maghrebi immigrant in France (Portukalos), or about the presumed racial theories of Lega Nord, but about the ''stereotypes''.

So, please from now (we've to) stay on topic.

[Prince Carlo]

Btw, this thread isn't about the raving of a random maghrebi immigrant in France (Portukalos), or about the presumed racial theories of Lega Nord, but about the ''stereotypes''.

So, please from now (we've to) stay on topic.

Here we go with another Iberian wannabe Moroccan. These guys really think that we are so retard to swallow all their nonsense.

[Peyrol]

Here we go with another Iberian wannabe Moroccan. These guys really think that we are so retard to swallow all their nonsense.

These kind of topics attracts idiots like a coup of honey with the bears...