PDA

View Full Version : The Internal Regions of Europe



alfieb
04-16-2013, 04:17 AM
It's often asked where Eastern Europe begins, and who is included/excluded from it.

http://www.youreuropemap.com/blank_europe_map.gif

How do you divide Europe?

http://i48.tinypic.com/2evclxc.png

This is more or less my view.

Hurrem sultana
04-16-2013, 04:22 AM
I base it more on cultural

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3394/blankeuropemap.gif

Methmatician
04-16-2013, 04:23 AM
http://i49.tinypic.com/2ugc32t.gif

alfieb
04-16-2013, 04:26 AM
I base it more on cultural
Hungary is culturally similar to Ireland how?

Hurrem sultana
04-16-2013, 04:31 AM
Hungary is culturally similar to Ireland how?

Its all western Europe under strong germanic influence

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 01:55 AM
http://oi42.tinypic.com/34xm7x1.jpg

arcticwolf
04-30-2013, 02:00 AM
http://oi42.tinypic.com/34xm7x1.jpg

Regardless of the distance from the area you have a sense to understand that Slovaks, Czechs have more in common with Poles than they do with Germans. It's sad to see adults being so ignorant. Good for you amigo, you've got common sense! :laugh:

Duke
04-30-2013, 02:24 AM
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc454/wi1d/blank_europe_map_zpsfe902d1c.gif

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 02:54 AM
Regardless of the distance from the area you have a sense to understand that Slovaks, Czechs have more in common with Poles than they do with Germans. It's sad to see adults being so ignorant. Good for you amigo, you've got common sense! :laugh:

They certainly do. Native language is the most essential ethnic element in my book. However, they are also related in some aspects, which I call Central. For instance, one can find similar architectural patterns, dances and folk clothing in much of the Central area, both West and East.

You like to laugh a lot but contribute with rather little substance, tovarish.

Aunt Hilda
04-30-2013, 03:10 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png

alfieb
04-30-2013, 03:10 AM
Native language is the most essential ethnic element in my book.
La lingua rumanzi più sìmili ô nostru è rumena.

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 03:12 AM
La lingua rumanzi più sìmili ô nostru è rumena.

I disagree.

alfieb
04-30-2013, 03:14 AM
I disagree.
Then who? We're not mutually intelligible with Italians, let alone Sardinians. Catalans perhaps?

Romanians understood my language fairly well when I lived in Italy. Italians did not, so I had to learn Italian.

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 03:21 AM
Then who? We're not mutually intelligible with Italians, let alone Sardinians. Catalans perhaps?

Romanians understood my language fairly well when I lived in Italy. Italians did not, so I had to learn Italian.

Catalan, if anything, is closer to the North Italian languages.

I'm not saying Sicilian is mutually intelligible with Italian. But it's even less with Romanian, which has a great amount of non-Romance vocabulary and a very different structure for some tense constructions. The closeness of languages is not judged by how well some can understand you or not. I'd also understand Sicilian without much effort, but this means nothing.

alfieb
04-30-2013, 03:23 AM
We're mutually intelligible with Maltese, to some extent. They are our brothers, so it is only natural.

You said language proximity is the most important factor. I only pointed out that Sicilian and Romanian are close.

poiuytrewq0987
04-30-2013, 03:29 AM
This is my view:

http://s12.postimg.org/ogpad4iel/thrx.png

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 03:30 AM
We're mutually intelligible with Maltese, to some extent. They are our brothers, so it is only natural.

Er... Maltese is not a Romance language. That doesn't mean you can't understand each other.


You said language proximity is the most important factor. I only pointed out that Sicilian and Romanian are close.

It is indeed. And yes, all Romance languages are kind of close. But Romanian is clearly the one which is more apart from the others.

This, while not perfect, is one of the best maps around to get a gist of the distances.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Romance-lg-classification-en.png/800px-Romance-lg-classification-en.png

alfieb
04-30-2013, 03:35 AM
Er... Maltese is not a Romance language. That doesn't mean you can't understand each other.
I never said Maltese was Romance. I said Romanian is the closest Romance language. Maltese is obviously closer than Romanian.


It is indeed. And yes, all Romance languages are kind of close. But Romanian is clearly the one which is more apart from the others.

This, while not perfect, is one of the best maps around to get a gist of the distances.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Romance-lg-classification-en.png/800px-Romance-lg-classification-en.png

And that shows that Iberian, Northern Italian, and French languages are as foreign if not more foreign to us than Romanian is.

Sikeliot
04-30-2013, 03:36 AM
In my opinion, French and Portuguese are the most different sounding Romance languages to the extent where neither even sounds Romance. Romanian at least to me sounds like a Romance language.

Anyway, I'd divide Europe by religion, history, and where applicable, language family more than anything else. I.e Greeks with Serbs, Bulgarians. French, Italian, Spanish together. Germany, Scandinavia, Netherlands together. Sicilians and Maltese together. Etc.

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 03:41 AM
I never said Maltese was Romance. I said Romanian is the closest Romance language. Maltese is obviously closer than Romanian.

And that shows that Iberian, Northern Italian, and French languages are as foreign if not more foreign to us than Romanian is.

:blink:

As you like it.

Sikeliot
04-30-2013, 03:42 AM
To me, Spanish, Italian, and Romanian sound alike. French and Portuguese sound like Germanic and Russian to me respectively.

Laubach
04-30-2013, 04:21 AM
To me, Spanish, Italian, and Romanian sound alike. French and Portuguese sound like Germanic and Russian to me respectively.

You're right, at this point. I do not speak Romanian, but I can understand something, but French and Portuguese are, I would say, at opposite ends of the branch romance. Are the most difficult languages ​​for each of the two peoples understand. Although some words are similar, but not the grammar.

And the French pronunciation of some consonants seem a little more with the German language, than with the other Romance languages​​. And the Portuguese language offers a larger facility for Slavic languages​​.

As a historical matter, the language is important, but we are also related to Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and with our arch-enemies England

France is too diverse to be summarized to a specific class

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 02:05 PM
Lol, looks like now the trend is to say that our language is close to Romanian. :P

Everybody knows that the closest to Romanian is Catalan. :)

Romanian: Am rezervat un apartament
Catalan: Hem reservat un apartament.

Romanian: Un moment!
Catalan: Un moment!

Romanian: Am văzut un bou și un castel.
Catalan: Hem vist un bou i un castell.

The sentences were not cherry-picked. :laugh:

Sisak
04-30-2013, 02:15 PM
alfieb, i see europe exactly the same as you.

SKYNET
04-30-2013, 02:37 PM
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12817850/img/Anonymous/2evclxc.png

Peyrol
04-30-2013, 02:41 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/2ugc32t.gif

Senseless...the whole Occitania is Southern Europe.

Peyrol
04-30-2013, 02:47 PM
Then who? We're not mutually intelligible with Italians, let alone Sardinians. Catalans perhaps?

Romanians understood my language fairly well when I lived in Italy. Italians did not, so I had to learn Italian.

Catalan is a Galloromance language, as piemontese, occitan, french and lombard.

So, catalan is closer to these languages rather than romanian.


Galloromance populations/languages:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3770/2u6kxom.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/2u6kxom.jpg/)

Sikeliot
04-30-2013, 03:00 PM
You're right, at this point. I do not speak Romanian, but I can understand something, but French and Portuguese are, I would say, at opposite ends of the branch romance. Are the most difficult languages ​​for each of the two peoples understand. Although some words are similar, but not the grammar.

Exactly because if I didn't understand some Portuguese from hearing my grandmother speak it, I would not only not know it was Romance but I wouldn't understand a thing. When I hear Romanian I can hear words that I recognize from having studied Spanish, and I assume it's even closer to Italian than to Spanish.

Peyrol
04-30-2013, 03:14 PM
It isn't a matter of ''what i heard'', but of linguistical philology.

I hear spoken romanian daily, since in my city there are more than 80,000 romanians (about 2 million romanians in the whole Italy, including moldovans and illegals)...to my hear, sound slavic, but the genealogy is undoubtely romanic, so it's a romance language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKkHUIlTMHU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqYCLYCQ2vs

Vasconcelos
04-30-2013, 03:24 PM
The funny thing is that most people don't know that Portuguese has loads of French influences on the way it is pronounced, especially the Estremenho accent. It's very noticable once one compares it to the northernmost accents in Alto Minho.

Peyrol
04-30-2013, 03:30 PM
:lol:

Listen thiese and tell me if piemontese is closer to romanian than to catalan...


:lol:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3ucmG_a6ww




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOvGO9VZOj0




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jr1AKbyMng

Vasconcelos
04-30-2013, 03:47 PM
This is as accurate as I can make.
















































http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Rokolev/2evclxc_zps29fe29b2.png

alfieb
04-30-2013, 04:20 PM
Catalan is a Galloromance language, as piemontese, occitan, french and lombard.

So, catalan is closer to these languages rather than romanian.


Galloromance populations/languages:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3770/2u6kxom.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/2u6kxom.jpg/)


I never said Maltese was Romance. I said Romanian is the closest Romance language. Maltese is obviously closer than Romanian.



And that shows that Iberian, Northern Italian, and French languages are as foreign if not more foreign to us than Romanian is.

I'm aware.

Linet
04-30-2013, 04:25 PM
http://oi42.tinypic.com/34xm7x1.jpg

Forever alone http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/silence-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862519....Whyyyy? http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/raccoon/sad-raccoon-emoticon.gif?1302774076

We want to play with the other med kis... :pout:

Comte Arnau
04-30-2013, 10:20 PM
:lol:

Listen thiese and tell me if piemontese is closer to romanian than to catalan...

If I translate what you've got in your signature to Catalan, you can see that only the last word is really different. :)

Es pas tard - No és pas tard
son encar aicí - Só encar ací
nòsti chamins d’un viatge - Nostres camins d'un viatge
l’èrba, lhi roieras - l'herba, les roderes
per lo boscatge - per lo boscatge
lhi champs a l’adrech - els camps a l'endret
e lhi muralhets cubèrts - i les muralletes cobertes
dal braçabòsc - de corretjola.

Such an inherent sweetness is hard to reach even by other Romances. :)

eeroli
04-30-2013, 10:30 PM
It's often asked where Eastern Europe begins, and who is included/excluded from it.

http://www.youreuropemap.com/blank_europe_map.gif

How do you divide Europe?

http://i48.tinypic.com/2evclxc.png

This is more or less my view.

My mother told me that sicilians are half-negroes. I think my mother is a racist, bad mummy.

Matt5898
05-01-2013, 12:28 AM
http://i036.radikal.ru/1305/30/f7a013f11c64.png

arcticwolf
05-01-2013, 12:44 AM
They certainly do. Native language is the most essential ethnic element in my book. However, they are also related in some aspects, which I call Central. For instance, one can find similar architectural patterns, dances and folk clothing in much of the Central area, both West and East.

You like to laugh a lot but contribute with rather little substance, tovarish.

What substance are you looking for.... el conquistador? :laugh:

Damião de Góis
05-01-2013, 12:56 AM
The most imediate division to me is language groups. Although, looking at the map, Romania seems to be in the wrong group :p

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Indo-European_languages_in_Europe.png

Comte Arnau
05-01-2013, 01:07 AM
What substance are you looking for.... el conquistador? :laugh:

Nevermind. I've already noticed I wouldn't find it.

arcticwolf
05-01-2013, 01:09 AM
Nevermind. I've already noticed I wouldn't find it.

You actually can be funny. Keep practicing you do have potential. :P You didn't blow up like I thought you would! Kudos. :laugh:

Peyrol
05-01-2013, 08:56 AM
If I translate what you've got in your signature to Catalan, you can see that only the last word is really different. :)

Es pas tard - No és pas tard
son encar aicí - Só encar ací
nòsti chamins d’un viatge - Nostres camins d'un viatge
l’èrba, lhi roieras - l'herba, les roderes
per lo boscatge - per lo boscatge
lhi champs a l’adrech - els camps a l'endret
e lhi muralhets cubèrts - i les muralletes cobertes
dal braçabòsc - de corretjola.

Such an inherent sweetness is hard to reach even by other Romances. :)

There are probably less differences than between catalan and castillian...

Comte Arnau
05-01-2013, 03:38 PM
There are probably less differences than between catalan and castillian...

A bit like English, Old Catalan had many doublets. For example: for 'brother' we had frare and germà, for 'to kill' we had occir and matar, etc. In these two cases, we would eventually choose the more Iberian form, so nowadays we say matar un germà for 'to kill a brother', similar to Spanish matar un hermano and Portuguese matar un irmão. Occir became very literary and frare reduced to a 'religious brother', a friar. But this has happened with few words. The core remains closer to the Gallo-Romance area indeed. In fact, what makes Catalan more Gallo-Romance than Ibero-Romance is the fact that for almost any Iberian-like word in Catalan you can find a Gallo-like doublet, but it never works the other way round.

However, Occitan seems to flow smoothly between Catalan and French. In terms of lexical proximity, according to a study on the basic core:

High proximity
Spanish and Portuguese: 85.7%
Catalan and Occitan: 74.8%
Occitan and French: 73.4%
----------
Catalan and French: 41.4%
----------
Catalan and Italian: 33.3% <-- Catalan is even closer to Italian than to Spanish in its core lexicon.
Catalan and Spanish: 27.2%
Italian and Portuguese: 26.5%
Italian and Spanish: 25.1%
Catalan and Portuguese: 21%
Occitan and Portuguese: 15.6%
Occitan and Spanish: 14.2%
-----------
Low proximity:
French and Portuguese: 5.1%
French and Spanish: 0%

Peyrol
05-01-2013, 03:42 PM
Interesting...even italian (so, tuscan) has a lot of double....for ''kill'' we can say uccidere or ammazzare (mattare is only for animal killing)...for ''to help'' we can say aiutare or soccorrere (or even assistere), etc etc...i can go on for hours...

PS. both in piemontese and in orobic (eastern lombard, the native language of my mom, ''germàn'' mean brother, but also cousin)

Damião de Góis
05-01-2013, 03:44 PM
High proximity
Spanish and Portuguese: 85.7%
Catalan and Occitan: 74.8%
Occitan and French: 73.4%
----------
Catalan and French: 41.4%
----------
Catalan and Italian: 33.3% <-- Catalan is even closer to Italian than to Spanish in its core lexicon.
Catalan and Spanish: 27.2%
Italian and Portuguese: 26.5%
Italian and Spanish: 25.1%
Catalan and Portuguese: 21%
Occitan and Portuguese: 15.6%
Occitan and Spanish: 14.2%
-----------
Low proximity:
French and Portuguese: 5.1%
French and Spanish: 0%

It's surprising that we are closer to italian than to catalan.

Comte Arnau
05-01-2013, 03:48 PM
Interesting...even italian (so, tuscan) has a lot of double....for ''kill'' we can say uccidere or ammazzare (mattare is only for animal killing)...for ''to help'' we can say aiutare or soccorrere (or even assistere), etc etc...i can go on for hours...

PS. both in piemontese and in orobic (eastern lombard, the native language of my mom, ''germàn'' mean brother, but also cousin)

That's right! I've noticed that too.

Spanish and Portuguese keep only the 'old' words (and if they have the 'new' ones, it's mostly late Frenchisms), while Catalan, France and Italy have the 'new' words plus remains of the 'old' words that have become old-fashioned, literary, dialectal or changed their meaning. I also saw that Tuscan had cacio, for instance, not only formaggio. French and Italian have tête/testa but also keep chef and capo for other uses. Etc, etc. The fascinating Neolatin world. :)

Szegedist
05-01-2013, 03:50 PM
Its all western Europe under strong germanic influence

You really, really overestimate Germanic influence in many countries.

Comte Arnau
05-01-2013, 03:54 PM
It's surprising that we are closer to italian than to catalan.

It may be at first, but then, Standard Italian is not Gallo-Romance, and it seems to have a majority of 'new' words but have kept the 'old' words in many cases too. That would explain why Spanish and Portuguese are more or less at the same distance from Italian than from Catalan, while Catalan is clearly closer to French.

Peyrol
05-01-2013, 03:56 PM
That's right! I've noticed that too.

Spanish and Portuguese keep only the 'old' words (and if they have the 'new' ones, it's mostly late Frenchisms), while Catalan, France and Italy have the 'new' words plus remains of the 'old' words that have become old-fashioned, literary, dialectal or changed their meaning. I also saw that Tuscan had cacio, for instance, not only formaggio. French and Italian have tête/testa but also keep chef and capo for other uses. Etc, etc. The fascinating Neolatin world. :)


The romance galaxy is very complicated...probabily the most archaic romance language dialect spoken today is senese tiscan (tecnically not a language, since standard italian is tuscan)...full of archaisms (plus, the tuscan gorgia, the non-pronunciation of the ''c'' lecter)...hearing this man talking, it's like have a trip in the Alighieri's Florence...i hardly understand some passages...and this is supposed to be the base of our ''national language''...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQO-EqUKQ-Y

....un cignale non è assolutamente...
....almeno le guardie disseno che...
....sapello...
....sarà sortito da circhi
...già abbrucciava
....sento sfrascà da quel siepone e sorte questa beschia
...arrivò a mezza piaggia...


this is pure medieval tuscan...?!?!

Szegedist
05-01-2013, 03:59 PM
http://oi44.tinypic.com/33l2l4z.jpg

Comte Arnau
05-01-2013, 04:02 PM
The romance galaxy is very complicated...probabily the most archaic romance language dialect spoken today is senese tiscan (tecnically not a language, since standard italian is tuscan)...full of archaisms (plus, the tuscan gorgia, the non-pronunciation of the ''c'' lecter)...hearing this man talking, it's like have a trip in the Alighieri's Florence...i hardly understand some passages...and this is supposed to be the base of our ''national language''...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQO-EqUKQ-Y

....un cignale non è assolutamente...
....almeno le guardie disseno che...
....sapello...
....sarà sortito da circhi
...già abbrucciava
....sento sfrascà da quel siepone e sorte questa beschia
...arrivò a mezza piaggia...


this is pure medieval tuscan...?!?!

Loving that guy. :)

I wouldn't say that's pure medieval Tuscan, hehe. Standard Italian wouldn't be based on natural spoken Tuscan, but on literary Florentine. This has happened with most other languages too: it's never as if the standard is really spoken on a certain place, because the standard tries not to change, while the natural speech is always changing.

Peyrol
05-01-2013, 04:03 PM
It may be at first, but then, Standard Italian is not Gallo-Romance, and it seems to have a majority of 'new' words but have kept the 'old' words in many cases too. That would explain why Spanish and Portuguese are more or less at the same distance from Italian than from Catalan, while Catalan is clearly closer to French.

Standard italian, since is basically the renaissance tuscan, is classified as ''italo-dalmatian''.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Dalmatian_languages

Comte Arnau
05-01-2013, 04:10 PM
Standard italian, since is basically the renaissance tuscan, is classified as ''italo-dalmatian''.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Dalmatian_languages

However, even if it keeps many of the old words, the new ones are majoritarian too: mangiare, tavola, testa...

It'd have been very interesting to include Sardinian in the study.

evon
05-01-2013, 04:11 PM
I base it more on cultural

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3394/blankeuropemap.gif

You think Nordic culture is anything like that of Central and Western Europe? i can assure it is not..

here is my map:
https://imageshack.us/scaled/large/547/30544297.png

Damião de Góis
05-01-2013, 05:44 PM
here is my map:
https://imageshack.us/scaled/large/547/30544297.png

I agree essencially with your map. I would just put Luxembourg in green and Slovenia and Czech Republic in Blue.

Stears
10-20-2013, 10:37 AM
Then who? We're not mutually intelligible with Italians, let alone Sardinians. Catalans perhaps?

Romanians understood my language fairly well when I lived in Italy. Italians did not, so I had to learn Italian.

Romanian was the last nomadic people in europe (until the 15th century), the appearance of literacy was the latest in the continent. Their facial features and their balkan genes are also less European. So if you like to be cousin such a people, it is your problem :))))))))

Rudel
10-20-2013, 11:10 AM
In my opinion, French and Portuguese are the most different sounding Romance languages to the extent where neither even sounds Romance.
Doesn't make sense at all to me (to the extent I speak both major Romance languages of France).


Lol, looks like now the trend is to say that our language is close to Romanian. :P

Everybody knows that the closest to Romanian is Catalan. :)

Romanian: Am rezervat un apartament
Catalan: Hem reservat un apartament.

Romanian: Un moment!
Catalan: Un moment!

Romanian: Am văzut un bou și un castel.
Catalan: Hem vist un bou i un castell.

The sentences were not cherry-picked. :laugh:
Stop speaking French, please :p


Catalan is a Galloromance language, as piemontese, occitan, french and lombard.
I can read Catalan almost fluently, never learned the first word of it (experience with Old Oc helped I guess). Same goes for most of Northern Italian dialects when you get used to the writing conventions (especially Piémontéis, which is basically Provençal written differently).
And orally I obviously understand them much better than Italian (which I don't like at all).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Indo-European_languages_in_Europe.png
Can't believe people still believe Breton and Basque are spoken.


That's right! I've noticed that too.
Spanish and Portuguese keep only the 'old' words (and if they have the 'new' ones, it's mostly late Frenchisms), while Catalan, France and Italy have the 'new' words plus remains of the 'old' words that have become old-fashioned, literary, dialectal or changed their meaning. I also saw that Tuscan had cacio, for instance, not only formaggio. French and Italian have tête/testa but also keep chef and capo for other uses. Etc, etc. The fascinating Neolatin world. :)
Lo cap et la testa also exist in Oc. There's no real preference, it depends on the dialect.

Probably due to the permeation of Frankish influence throughout the whole Gallic continuum.


The romance galaxy is very complicated...probabily the most archaic romance language dialect spoken today is senese tiscan (tecnically not a language, since standard italian is tuscan)...full of archaisms (plus, the tuscan gorgia, the non-pronunciation of the ''c'' lecter)...hearing this man talking, it's like have a trip in the Alighieri's Florence...i hardly understand some passages...and this is supposed to be the base of our ''national language''...

The most archaic Romance language is hands down Sardinian.

My map essentially divides Europe into two primal clusters : France and the rest of which I give almost no shit.

http://i.imgur.com/Azkq1F7.jpg

alfieb
10-20-2013, 02:40 PM
http://oi44.tinypic.com/33l2l4z.jpg

Karl must have paid him to say this.

Comte Arnau
10-27-2013, 05:37 AM
Can't believe people still believe Breton and Basque are spoken.

Basque may not be much spoken in France, but it certainly still is in the Basque Country, specially in Gipuzkoa province, as well as in NW Navarre.

Rudel
10-27-2013, 05:47 AM
Basque may not be much spoken in France, but it certainly still is in the Basque Country, specially in Gipuzkoa province, as well as in NW Navarre.
I know it's still spoken in Spain, out of most of Navarra. But here it's really restricted to some places and circles. On Alex Delarge's The French Basque country and Basse-Bretagne should have little dots like Alsace, it would be accurate.

alfieb
10-27-2013, 11:16 AM
Romanian was the last nomadic people in europe (until the 15th century), the appearance of literacy was the latest in the continent. Their facial features and their balkan genes are also less European. So if you like to be cousin such a people, it is your problem :))))))))

And you guys have a funny language and have your first names as your last names. If you want Poland and Turkey as friends, that is your problem.

Romanians are the #1 immigrant group in Italy, and other than the gypsies, we get along fine, as cousins should.

Odin
08-06-2018, 11:09 AM
https://i.imgur.com/eiMP7nn.png