How should Hungary counter Pan-Slavism?

[Szegedist]

And potentially pan Germanic lebensraum ideas from our Western neigbours, and maybe even Pan-Romanism..


http://oi37.tinypic.com/t643rc.jpg

discuss

[Szegedist]

The obvious answer is, we must get nuclear weapons. ;) :laugh:
Who agrees?

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg

[baraSYR]

You must have better relations with the US to complete the Iron plate around Russia, from the caucasus to the balkans to poland to the baltic countries to finland.

[Szegedist]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg



Physically, Austria is smaller, with a smaller population than Hungary.

Together our population would be about 18 million, that is less than Romania, and if you include only ethnic Austrians and Hungarians, that would be about 16 million.

Plus, Austria would benefit far more from joining Germany, than a union with a economically less developed Hungary.

[Dacul]

Lol,you do not need to counter any Pan-Slavism,that will not happen soon.
But you might have problems with Romania becoming allied to Ukraine.
At the moment,the relations between people from Ukraine and Romania are great,governments are not understanding that well.

[Szegedist]

You must have better relations with the US to complete the Iron plate around Russia, from the caucasus to the balkans to poland to the baltic countries to finland.

Better relations with the US are out of the question, there are disagreements and tensions even right now, not to mention history. Plus they didn't care about is in 1848 (Kossuth tried to get the US to help us), and they care even less about us today. The only thing they care about in Hungary is to make sure that the Jewish minority remains safe.

[Baluarte]

The Latins and Greeks certainly wish you no harm whatsoever, and at least from the Latin side, you have a good reputation as good Catholic people who suffered a lot during both World Wars.

I'd focus on Italy+Iberia.

Then you can negotiate with immediate neighbours (even if I know how ugly it must be to deal with your former enemies)

Example: Support Serbia regarding Kosovo, perhaps Montenegro and oppose the separation of all of Vojvodina. In return ask for easier movement and investing in Hungarian Vojvodina. Make it so that the past Belgrade and Budapest have of opposing each other is overcome, and you can both actively oppose AtlantoZionism

I'd be tempted to say supporting Romania annexing Moldova in return for them giving cultural, social and political authonomy to the Szekely and the Hungarian border lands, but I know enough Bucharest to know they will not do anything.


So...as a principle: Be the neutral arbiter between Slavs and Germanians.
Relations between Russia and Germany are deteriorating fast and except from Orban's government, the Visegrad seems to be run by a bunch of idiots (Poland wants to join the Eurozone, OMFG!!!). Improve relations with both sides while working VERY HARD in your agriculture, industry and technology sectors, so that you become the privileged actor in Central-Eastern Europe.

[Baluarte]

Also, other than sparse cultural and linguistic exchanges, Italy/Iberia/France dont' consider Romania to be part of their group. Too far, too Eastern and Orthodox.

[Szegedist]

The Latins and Greeks certainly wish you no harm whatsoever, and at least from the Latin side, you have a good reputation as good Catholic people who suffered a lot during both World Wars.

I'd focus on Italy+Iberia.
I would say this is not a bad idea, Mussolini was probably the biggest foreign sympathizer to our cause in the interwar years, and Franco tried to send us military aid in 1956, so these are some modern-ish examples.

As far as Greeks go, they are heavily pro-Serb.

[kabeiros]

And potentially pan Germanic lebensraum ideas from our Western neigbours, and maybe even Pan-Romanism..


http://oi37.tinypic.com/t643rc.jpg

discuss Looking at the map makes me wonder how should Greece counter Pan-Slavism and Pan-Turkism?

[Baluarte]

Pro-Serb doesn't mean anti-Hungarian structurally. That's what I've trying to show you.

The Old pro-British kingdom of Yugoslavia is looong gone, and the Serbs today have a whole lot of problems that have almost no ressemblance to the ones they had 70 years ago. What are their problems today?
Isolation and blackmail from the EU. Rings any bells?

Not a single country has progressed while being hostile to all of its neighbours. Even the Germans, flanked by Russians and French, always managed to get one or two guys on their side (Austro-Hungarian Empire, or through Anschluss+Annexation of Czechoslovakia).

Greece pro-Serb calling is suffering a lot under the boots of NATO and the EU (civil/military sides of the same thing). None of them have a problem with Hungary. As long as you sort the issues with Belgrade and you can reach some understanding, it's a whole economic market and political ally to explore.

[Crn Volk]

Hungary can't do anything against a unified Slavia. It would be crushed.

[Methmatician]

Join your brothers in Finland.

[Szegedist]

Join your brothers in Finland.

That would hardly help against a United Slavia...

[Corvus]

Your fierce Anti Austrian sentiments slowly but steadily envoke the nationalistic instincts in me.
Hungary can do nothing against Pan Slavism. If all neighbour countries unite and turn their force against Hungary either by military force or economical boycott the Magyars would stand no chance.

[Philo]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg
LOL. Look at the cross in the very upper end of the right symbol9that's the hungarian one, no?), It falls to the left. Am i the only one who noticed this weird feature?

[The.Mask]

That would hardly help against a United Slavia...

There is no such things. Poles & Croats like Hungary much more than other slavic countries

PS : Your map is wrong Kosovo is not slavic.

[Szegedist]

Your fierce Anti Austrian sentiments slowly but steadily envoke the nationalistic instincts in me.
Hungary can do nothing against Pan Slavism. If all neighbour countries unite and turn their force against Hungary either by military force or economical boycott the Magyars would stand no chance.

"Fierce Anti Austrian sentiments" is an exaggeration, but your "Hungarians and Austrians were always brothers" type thinking is far from the truth.

Like I told you before, I have no issues with modern day Austria, but do you honestly expect me to love Austria historically? There is a reason why some of our most beloved national heroes were freedom fighters against the Habsburgs.

You always make it sound like as if we are indebted to you forever.


steadily envoke the nationalistic instincts in me.
Meaning what, you will start claiming Hungary as part of Greater Austria?

[Arbërori]

Hungary can't do anything against a unified Slavia. It would be crushed.

It has Finland, Estonia & let's say the support of the 'Turanic' nations. :laugh:

[Szegedist]

There is no such things. Poles & Croats like Hungary much more than other slavic countries
This is mostly a hypothetical thread.


PS : Your map is wrong Kosovo is not slavic.
It is an old map that still has Kosovo as part of Serbia, I thought about changing it, but then I would have to start messing with some other regions, so I just kept it as it is for simplicity's sake.

[Arbërori]

Ally with the Germanics, Hellenes, Illyrians & Romance speakers, with some Slavic nations on your side aswell. :lol:

Then we've also got the US, Latin America, South Africa & the 'Turanic' nations outside of Europe.

[Szegedist]

It's good to know we are not the only ones with this situation :laugh:

Albania is surrounded by hostiles, but they have good terrain, and if attacked can do their "mountain guerrilla warfare" thing.

Hungary on the other hand, mostly flat plains. The new borders were designed in such a way that Hungary is easy to attack, but for us it is difficult to defend.

And the Slovak (or at the time Czechoslovak) border was designed in such a way so Slovak artillery could hit Budapest without having to cross into Hungary to fire them. But these days with long ranged missiles, this is irrelevant.

The Baltic states have it bad as well, bordering the Big Bear itself.

[member]

You should unite with Lithuanians. To fight pan-slavism.

[Mans not hot]

You should unite with Lithuanians. To fight pan-slavism.
I'm sorry, but you will never fight pan-Slavism; We have enormous people. :cool:

[RussiaPrussia]

ally with russia, we dont care about pan slavinism. We only care about anti american and anti eu countries

[Grenzland]

Hungary looks sad... :(

[member]

I'm sorry, but you will never fight pan-Slavism; We have enormous people. :cool:

You know how it's said not quantity but quality :laugh:

[Onur]

Pray to Tengri and erect your fire totems, then the spirit of Attila will guide your way :D

[Szegedist]

LOL. Look at the cross in the very upper end of the right symbol9that's the hungarian one, no?), It falls to the left. Am i the only one who noticed this weird feature?

Yes, the Cross is crooked.

http://huns2huns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Szent-Korona.jpg

It is one of the oldest, if not oldest surviving crown Jewels in Europe today, and historically has been through a lot, even buried under ground in a crude oil barrel. So the most accepted theory for the Crooked Cross is that it was damaged.
The Holy Crown itself also has a personhood, people would pledge loyalty not to the King, but to the Holy Crown, even the king would pledge allegiance to the crown. In times of no Monarch, the Holy Crown itself becomes the Monarch.

During the 14th century, royal power came to be represented not simply by a crown, but by just one specific object: the Holy Crown. This also meant that the Kingdom of Hungary was a special state: they were not looking for a crown to inaugurate a king, but rather, they were looking for a king for the crown; as written by Crown Guard Péter Révay. He also depicts that "the Holy Crown is the same for the Hungarians as the Lost Ark is for the Jewish".

Bit of trivia for you there :)

[Baluarte]

Such a great passage of European Catholic history. Thanks for that Szeg :)

[Szegedist]

Such a great passage of European Catholic history. Thanks for that Szeg :)

It's not Catholic history, but Hungarian history.

Part of the Crown is of Byzantine origin(Corona Græca), with Greek writing on it, other part is corona latina, and then the cross.
During Christianisation period, there was both the Vatican and Constantinople had influence on Hungary, in fact Byzantine Christianity had influence first and the earliest religious missions to Hungarians arrived from the Byzantine Empire, but then it eventually shifted to Roman Catholicism.

[Geminus]

Ally with Germany :)

[Baluarte]

Ally with Germany :)

Why would they?

[Szegedist]

We were allied with Germany in Two World Wars...and each time ended up worse than before.

[Geminus]

We were allied with Germany in Two World Wars...and each time ended up worse than before.

Yeah, cooperating with the Allies would have brought back your territories lost in WW I. Don't blame Germany for this, your politicians knew what they were into.
But you are also right, considering the consequences it would be better that neither WW I nor WW II had happened.

[The Lawspeaker]

Thank God that we in the West don't need to worry about all that. I still think we should create a kind of organisation for Germanic states (a mixture between the old EEC and the EFTA for Germanic countries) and turn our backs towards the rest of Europe (if we don't need them).

[Szegedist]

Yeah, cooperating with the Allies would have brought back your territories lost in WW I. Don't blame Germany for this, your politicians knew what they were into.
We never wanted WW1 in the first place. Our politicians were against the invasion of Serbia. After WW1, Hungary got most of the blame. But this goes back to previous days, the 1867 compromise, and that in itself goes further back. Mistakes after mistakes + unlucky fate.

As for WW2, the Germans used our weakness (lost territories) as a bait. Originally Hitler only supported our claims against Czechoslovakia. But after the Yugoslav coup, the Germans let us keep parts of previously lost territories in exchange of our participation, and allowing German soldiers pass through our territory.

And for North Transylvania, it was not a set deal, and it's status would have depended whoever was the most useful out of Hungary and Romania on the Eastern Front.
Horthy planned to invade Romania, so Hitler quickly acted to reduce tensions between Romania&Hungary while the war was happening. Last thing he needed was his allies killing each other.

It was hardly because Germans cared or wanted to help us, or to do justice. But such is life, Tit for tat, nothing is free.
But today days are different, and we have little to offer you.


And then there was Unternehmen Margarethe...

[Geminus]

Thank God that we in the West don't need to worry about all that. I still think we should create a kind of organisation for Germanic states (a mixture between the old EEC and the EFTA for Germanic countries) and turn our backs towards the rest of Europe (if we don't need them).

I would also support this cooperation between the Northern or Germanic European countries.


We never wanted WW1 in the first place. Our politicians were against the invasion of Serbia. After WW1, Hungary got most of the blame. But this goes back to previous days, the 1867 compromise, and that in itself goes further back. Mistakes after mistakes + unlucky fate.

I don't know the details of the peace treaty of Triannon, but at Versailles Germany was said to be the only one responsible for WW I, which caused much outrage in Germany.


It was hardly because Germans cared or wanted to help us, or to do justice. But such is life, Tit for tat, nothing is free.
But today days are different, and we have little to offer you.

Yup that's how politics are...
I also just saw that Hungary only has about the population of Austria and even less than the German state of Bavaria. So any cooperation between Germany and Hungary would be rather one-sided...
Hungary really lost most of it's influence it had in former times, when it was quite a big kingdom.

[Szegedist]

So any cooperation between Germany and Hungary would be rather one-sided...
Yes I know.


Hungary really lost most of it's influence it had in former times, when it was quite a big kingdom.
Yes, sadly this is the case today, and we will probably never recover again.

[Baluarte]

I firmly think that South Europe is a far better ally for Hungary.
Cultural similarities, religious continuum and no opposing interests. As I said, if you manage to make some sort of peace with the Serbs, the whole Mediterranean region will be a great ally to explore.

[safinator]

I firmly think that South Europe is a far better ally for Hungary.
Cultural similarities, religious continuum and no opposing interests. As I said, if you manage to make some sort of peace with the Serbs, the whole Mediterranean region will be a great ally to explore.

Serbs are Slavs.

[Baluarte]

So?

They're not structural enemies, specially today when both Serbia and Hungary are hated by the EU/NATO tandem. They don't even have to be friends and allies, they just need to find a neutral/cordial agreement so that Greece and other traditionally pro-Serb anti-Atlanticist countries feel more confident to cooperate with Budapest.

[Szegedist]

I firmly think that South Europe is a far better ally for Hungary.
Cultural similarities, religious continuum and no opposing interests. As I said, if you manage to make some sort of peace with the Serbs, the whole Mediterranean region will be a great ally to explore.

Southern Europe is not that influential, has too many of its own problems, and wouldn't surprise me if they economically and politically collapsed in the next decade or two.

Secondly, I doubt they would have any interests in helping us.

These days we enjoy better relations with Turkey than Southern Europe, and there is a lot more drive towards this area (China, Russia, Turkey)

[Baluarte]

Economy will never replace culture and politics.

[Dombra]

Team up with Finland and Baltics and then you ally with both the Latins and Germanics.
You should however, in real life, undermine pan slavism as fast as you can

[Hoca]

Probably neo-Ottomanism with support from Germany who are also against pan-Slavism. The problem is not really the smaller balkanic states but Russia. If Russian federation falls there won't be a threat any more.

[Geminus]

I firmly think that South Europe is a far better ally for Hungary.
Cultural similarities, religious continuum and no opposing interests. As I said, if you manage to make some sort of peace with the Serbs, the whole Mediterranean region will be a great ally to explore.

But why do you think Hungary is culturally more similar to Southern Europe than Central Europe or for example Germany?
First there was the Hapsburg Empire in which Germans/Austrians and Hungarians lived together and second there was a lot of immigration from Germans to Hungary. They are mostly magyarized now but I think any Hungarian could tell you of someone he knows who has a German surname or similar.

[Szegedist]

But why do you think Hungary is culturally more similar to Southern Europe than Central Europe or for example Germany?
First there was the Hapsburg Empire in which Germans/Austrians and Hungarians lived together and second there was a lot of immigration from Germans to Hungary. They are mostly magyarized now but I think any Hungarian could tell you of someone he knows who has a German surname or similar.


Historically Germany was not a single entity.
We might have ties to Austria, but what ties do we have to Lower Saxony?

[Peyrol]

And potentially pan Germanic lebensraum ideas from our Western neigbours, and maybe even Pan-Romanism..


http://oi37.tinypic.com/t643rc.jpg

discuss

Don't worry, pan-romanism is totally senseless and we don't need an eastern lebensraum, a spazio vitale.

[Geminus]

Historically Germany was not a single entity.
We might have ties to Austria, but what ties do we have to Lower Saxony?

Well, settlers came from all of Germany:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Swabians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons

[Szegedist]

The Transylvanian Saxons sided with Romanians against Hungarians over Transylvania. Today there are German mayors in Transylvania, supporting their cause. I have noticed a similar pattern in Vojvodina Germans as well.

Today, most of the Germans in Hungary have either left (deported, or left on their own), or have been assimilated. But I have seen some pan-Germanicists claiming parts of Hungary which is supposedly 'rightful German land'.

[Szegedist]

Realistically speaking, Germany is the only country in Europe, apart from maybe Russia, with the means and influence to help us.

But nothing is free, so we would have to convince them that it would somehow benefit them. Lets say, roughly 1941 borders, that would today be a population of about 17-19 million people, maybe even more, which will have greater regional influence and will be of more use.

But, today's German is Merkel-land, so this is not even worth thinking about. We are lucky that she didnt remove our Prime Minister (which she originally planned to do)


We are on our own, in case of an attack, I doubt anyone would help us. Even if we had the means to retake lost lands, we would be the aggressors in the eyes of the international community, and probably end up worse than Serbs.






The best choice for now would be to solidify our country internally, sort of the heap of problems that we have, support autonomy movements externally, pray that we dont get ganged up on, and then wait, and wait for an opportunity. We missed so many so far.

[Grenzland]

But I have seen some pan-Germanicists claiming parts of Hungary which is supposedly 'rightful German land'.

???

I'm a German nationalist and this is the first time I hear about this.

[Szegedist]

Grenzland I will put it this way, you, and most of the German (and Austrian) nationalists on here are different to the ones I am used to dealing with.

[Geminus]

Grenzland I will put it this way, you, and most of the German (and Austrian) nationalists on here are different to the ones I am used to dealing with.

I don't think there are any organizations in Germany having these demands. I only know that some Hungarians want Burgenland which is more than 90 % German speaking...