How Celtic Are You?

[Treffie]

Put the kettle on, get some Welshcakes, relax. Let's chat about any Celtic ancestry that we may or may not have.

http://www.cakesfromwales.com/Maddocks/UploadedFiles/bakestone.jpg

[Skandi]

it's lonely in here Treff

[Treffie]

It is a bit,, but it's early days. I know some Slavs who'd be interested in giving us some moral support :D

[Jarl]

:P Sooo... are you Celts? Or Celto-Germanics???

Thanks for the invitation! :)

[Treffie]

Umm, more Celtic than germanic here, Jarl. :thumb001:

By association, you're an honorary member. Seeing as you lived in Wales for 4 years of your life, I would call you 1/6th Celt :D

[Amarantine]

Heloooo Celts:) nice Welsh cookies Arawn, so tasty didn't know you cook so well!

@Trymheim

some of Slavs here are obsessed with Celts since childhood;)

[Treffie]

Hi Amarantine, would you like butter on your Welshcakes?:)

[Amarantine]

Oh I loved to...yes, please:)

[Freomæg]

I'm Celto-Germanic and definitely more Germanic than Celt. However, I have a deep interest in Celtic Briton (and Ireland) and some might say I look more Celtic than Germanic ;).

[Freomæg]

Oh and of course my username is very much Celtic (Welsh) <- proof of my interest.

[Mrs Ulf]

Thank you for the invite! Now I'm hungry, those welsh cakes look sooo good.

[Treffie]

They're really nice with a cup of tea, Mrs Ulf :)

[Frigga]

Thanks for the invite! :)

I'm more Celtic than Germanic in appearance, and in heart I believe.

Capercaillie anyone? :P

[Mrs Ulf]

They remind me of the cookies I helped make at my grandmothers church. I forget what they were called.

[Germanicus]

Hello fellow Celts, never fear Germanicus is here...i am proud of my Celtic features, if i look around i see i am not unique there are millions of us in the UK...
Whilst holidaying in Breton i noticed that i was a spitting image of most French men, Celts are everywhere..

[Jarl]

:) Are you from Lancashire, Germanicu? Do you have an occipital bun by any chance?

[Beorn]

Your last name isn't very Welsh though, Arawn. Distinctly English I'd say. :P

[Loki]

Not very Celtic, I'm afraid, but I've found one Scottish surname in my genealogy. :)

[Treffie]

Yes Wat, that's my dirty secret :D

[Treffie]

Loki, that's Celtic enough :D

[Amapola]

Hey, can the r1b thing be associated with the Celts? In this case, I am more than just a "wannabe"? :D

[Loki]

Well Alana, your forebears were not called "Celtiberians" for nothing. ;)

[Ankoù]

http://15.media.tumblr.com/SH9lMLiRLogko8w6kn6sLiYko1_500.jpg

[Treffie]

Lol Ankou! :D

I've never seen that before - very true! :p

[Mrs Ulf]

That is the funniest thing I've seen all day. :thumb001:

[Aemma]

My first name is very Welsh, Jennifer, although I myself am not. Does that count for something???

And I am a quarter Celt, Irish (County Cork) and Highland Scots, mixed in with some Scouser in there for good measure...does that count too? :P :D

[Frigga]

My last name is Lloyd, which is Welsh. I also have a Scottish ancestress who when she was 12 years old stowed away by herself on a ship to America.

Question to all people savvy with the name of Lloyd. Have you ever in your life come across a person with that last name but the spelling of Loyd, Lloyde, or Loyde? Whenever I tell someone my name and I don't spell it out, they always do a varition of the above, and never get my name right! :grumpy: Makes no sense to me!

[Loyalist]

Let's see; my direct paternal ancestors were Highland Scots. I have an indigenous (ie: not Ulster-Scots) Irish ancestor on that side a few generations back. My grandmother also descended from a prominent, old-stock Welsh family. And last but not least, many of my English ancestors hailed from predominantly Brythonic regions, Shropshire chief among them.

[Psychonaut]

I wish I knew just how Celtic I was. A lot of my lines stem from Celtic regions of France (many from Bretagne and a few from the Alps), but I've only been able to genealogizify my way back to a handful fo Breton surnames?

[Aemma]

My last name is Lloyd, which is Welsh. I also have a Scottish ancestress who when she was 12 years old stowed away by herself on a ship to America.

Question to all people savvy with the name of Lloyd. Have you ever in your life come across a person with that last name but the spelling of Loyd, Lloyde, or Loyde? Whenever I tell someone my name and I don't spell it out, they always do a varition of the above, and never get my name right! :grumpy: Makes no sense to me!


That`s crazy! I thought everybody knew how to spell Lloyd. It`s one of those funky double L names like Llewelyn. :D

[Electronic God-Man]

I'm actually roughly 20% Celtic, believe it or not. I have ancestors from Tipperary and Mayo in Ireland and Fife and Renfrewshire in Scotland. I have a few distant known Welsh ancestors and I most likely have even more since there are surnames in my family like Jones and Lewis. Plus I have plenty of English ancestry...can't all be Anglo-Saxon. At least a few of those were from Cornwall. :thumb001:

[Ankoù]

Hey, can the r1b thing be associated with the Celts? In this case, I am more than just a "wannabe"? :D


And I am a quarter Celt, Irish (County Cork) and Highland Scots, mixed in with some Scouser in there for good measure...does that count too? :P :D

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3070/sortofwant.jpg

[Treffie]

Hello fellow Celts, never fear Germanicus is here...i am proud of my Celtic features, if i look around i see i am not unique there are millions of us in the UK...
Whilst holidaying in Breton i noticed that i was a spitting image of most French men, Celts are everywhere..


Yes, I've always wondered how many people there are around the world with Celtic ancestry? I wonder if it would run into the hundreds of millions? We're not just talking about the Scots, Irish, Welsh and Bretons here, but Gauls, Celts in Iberia, English Celts, Iceland, Germany, Austria - the list is endless.:)



Posted by Aemma
My first name is very Welsh, Jennifer, although I myself am not. Does that count for something???

And I am a quarter Celt, Irish (County Cork) and Highland Scots, mixed in with some Scouser in there for good measure...does that count too?


Of course it does Aemma, a Celtic social group wouldn't be one without our Apricity Super mom!:thumb001:


Posted by Frigga

My last name is Lloyd, which is Welsh. I also have a Scottish ancestress who when she was 12 years old stowed away by herself on a ship to America.

Question to all people savvy with the name of Lloyd. Have you ever in your life come across a person with that last name but the spelling of Loyd, Lloyde, or Loyde? Whenever I tell someone my name and I don't spell it out, they always do a varition of the above, and never get my name right! Makes no sense to me

Frigga, the surname Lloyd comes from Llwyd which means grey, perhaps we should call you Lady Grey?:thumb001:

[Fortis in Arduis]

Although I am not known by it myself, my father's actual surname is Celtic.

It is the one which means 'twisted mouth'.

Yes, I am a Campbell, and true to form, my Campbell jowl has made its appearance in recent years.

[Tansy]

Cool thread. I've a few Scottish ancestors on my mother's side who appear to have been from Nairn and Inverness. The surnames were MacGregor and Harvie. It's been easy to find information on the Clan Gregor side but not so much with the Harvies. It seems as though Harvie/Harvey is of Breton origin, can anyone confirm that for me? :shrug:

[Treffie]

Cool thread. I've a few Scottish ancestors on my mother's side who appear to have been from Nairn and Inverness. The surnames were MacGregor and Harvie. It's been easy to find information on the Clan Gregor side but not so much with the Harvies. It seems as though Harvie/Harvey is of Breton origin, can anyone confirm that for me? :shrug:

Ankou is the resident Breton on here, why not ask him? I'm sure he would oblige :thumb001:

[Beorn]

It seems as though Harvie/Harvey is of Breton origin, can anyone confirm that for me?

"This ancient surname, which is one of the earliest on record, is of English and Irish origin. It is also well recorded in Scotland, although the origin is as for England. The name has two possible sources, the first being from the Breton personal name "Aeruiu" or "Haerviu", composed of the elements "haer", meaning battle, and "vy", - worthy. The 1086 Domesday has various references to followers of William the Conqueror, including Herueu de Berruarius of Suffolk, and later Heuei de Castre of Lincoln, in 1157. These were not surnames, although in fact the first surname recording as shown below was only just behind. The second source is Irish, although in fact most nameholders in Ireland do descend from English settlers, it is said that a Galway clan called originally the O'hAirmheadhaigh, did 'anglicise' their name to Harvey or Harvie. The Gaelic translates as 'the descendant of the son of Airmed', the latter being a personal name which may mean 'a grain of corn'. The surname is generally recorded as Harvey, Harvie, Hervie and Hervey, and early recordings include William Hervy of Essex in 1232, Warin Harvi in the Pipe Rolls of Cambridge for the year 1273, and John Hervy, burgess of Aberdeen in 1398. The roll of famous namebearers includes William Harvey (1578 - 1657), who discovered the circulation of the blood in 1616, whilst Edmond Harvey, a Parlimentarian Colonel, was one of the fifty three regicides who signed the death warrant of Charles 1st in January 1649. Beauchamp Bagenal Harvey was one of the 1798 leaders of the Irish rebellion, whilst curiously Robert Hervie of Scotland was a member of the Huntly Volunteer force, raised to combat a possible French-Irish invasion. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of William Hervi, which was dated 1190, in the 'Calendar of Abbot Samson of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk', during the reign of King Richard 1, known as "The Lionheart", 1189 - 1199. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax. Throughout the centuries, surnames in every country have continued to "develop" often leading to astonishing variants of the original spelling."

http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Harvie

[Liffrea]

There is some Celtic blood in my veins, I don’t talk about it much, the shame of an Anglo-Saxon with Celtic blood, sob….:p

My great great granny was Irish, came over in 1885 to England, she was married in Ireland to a man who was either Scots or Scots-Irish (we’re not sure) certainly there were a lot of kilted blokes at my mum and dad’s wedding, some bods from up north of the wall.

My half Irish, half Scot great granny married an Englishman, they set up a “horse dealership” in Chesterfield, I just know they were fickin diddykyes…..

My gran hated the Irish with a passion, even though she had Irish blood, wouldn’t have anything Irish in the house. Not sure why that came about.

I haven’t been able to trace much of the Irish line of the family, don’t dare half expect to find distant relations resembling the Dingles back in Ireland, since I don’t know where in Ireland they cam from it would be pretty hard to trace back. Apparently there are also some distant relations in Salford, which is the Irish part of Manchester.

Other than that my surname is Stevenson, which originates in southern Scotland, apparently from Norman settlers (it just gets bloody worse!).:D

Thankfully there is no Welsh blood, don’t think I could stand more humiliation!:p

[Treffie]

Thankfully there is no Welsh blood, don’t think I could stand more humiliation!:p

Poor bugger, it must be awful for you, but I won't hold it against you :D

[Allenson]

I certainly must have a fair bit. Speaking not in exact genealogical terms mind you, but I would reckon that I'm around 90% Isles extraction. Toss out the Danes & the Angles and what is there left but a bunch of Celticized native Britons. :)

[Skandi]

My grandmothers maiden name is Lloyd from Wales, maybe we are related.


My last name is Lloyd, which is Welsh. I also have a Scottish ancestress who when she was 12 years old stowed away by herself on a ship to America.

[Mrs Ulf]

Welsh and Scottish mostly. The 'Spencer' farm is still in my family was built in the 1800 some time, and supposedly were from the the Scottish MacDonald Clan. That is what my grandmother says, shes really big into our ancestory. We still have family in Europe, my Grandmother keeps in touch with them.

[Frigga]

My grandmothers maiden name is Lloyd from Wales, maybe we are related.

Maybe so. Would this hinder things for us then? :( :P

[Murphy]

The majority of my ancestry is Irish, most of which is Gaelic Irish and I think I may have some Anlgo-Norman in my Irish side but I cannot say for sure. The rest of my ancestry is Scottish, which is a toss up between Highland and Lowland Scot. I would say I am simply an Anglicised Celt with the main Anglicisation being in language.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Germanicus]

:) Are you from Lancashire, Germanicu? Do you have an occipital bun by any chance?

No i am not from Lancashire, but my surname comes from only one place in Lancashire.
I live in the West Country..........Gloucestershire the Glou bit is from a Roman Caeser, the Cester bit is from the Roman Ceaster, which means a fortification.
Gloucester was a Fort and the lands given to retired legionaires, the area is in a valley which gets flooded from the Severn river, basically it is a flood plain.
We have a Cathedral that was started being built in 1190 it was finished in 1400 s
My West country accent is not as strong as Wat Tylers i can assure you....:)

alas no bun..............

[Gooding]

About as Celtic as Germanic, I would imagine..:p:thumb001: To clarify, my mother was a McDonald and her father was a Baird on his mother's side and a McDonald on his father's side, while his maternal grandmother was a Perkins and his paternal grandmother was a Cecil.In that mix we find Scots, Ulster Scots and English as well as Germans. My maternal grandmothers people= Pecots(maternal)-French Creole/Cajun,German, Swiss=Cornetts(paternal)-English,Irish,Scots,Swiss.My father's side:Gooding-English(with a Cree Indian eight generations back)=Thorne-English, Ulster Scots.

[Brynhild]

And what happened to my invite Arawn? Somehow, I just stumbled upon it. :p Anywayyyyyy, I love the triskele that's used as the picture for the group, it's one of my personal symbols.

I have Scottish on both my mother and father's side. On mum's side, we had an Archie Howison and Elizabeth Mays. Beyond them, I don't really know. On my dad's side, we have Stuarts and Bruces.

My Irish blood is definitely from my mother's side. We have names like Dixon, Lysaght, Quinn and Burke, all of them from county Clare. The name Sheridan came from county Wexford and Blake from Kerry. It's through the name Blake that our maternal line is traced thus far.

I'm not sure of the percentage, because of the English, Maltese and German in my blood, but it's fair to say I have a bit. :D

[Treffie]

And what happened to my invite Arawn? Somehow, I just stumbled upon it. :p Anywayyyyyy, I love the triskele that's used as the picture for the group, it's one of my personal symbols.

I have Scottish on both my mother and father's side. On mum's side, we had an Archie Howison and Elizabeth Mays. Beyond them, I don't really know. On my dad's side, we have Stuarts and Bruces.

My Irish blood is definitely from my mother's side. We have names like Dixon, Lysaght, Quinn and Burke, all of them from county Clare. The name Sheridan came from county Wexford and Blake from Kerry. It's through the name Blake that our maternal line is traced thus far.

I'm not sure of the percentage, because of the English, Maltese and German in my blood, but it's fair to say I have a bit. :D

Sorry Bryn :rolleyes2:

You're a welcome addition to our ancient clan! :p

[Sally]

Manx and Irish, I guess.

My mother was born in Manchester, England. A few years ago, I was looking at the census records from the 1800s and discovered that some of her ancestors were from the Isle of Man and Ireland. Not that surprising, really! :D

[Hulda.Kin]

hey Gooding I Have Baird in my Scots line too, ours were from Glasgow and then Ayrhsire.

I think have a bit more Anglo-Saxon and German/Prussian than Celt, the Celt is Scots, Welsh and a bit of Irish. I've gotten my Scots line further back than the others as the Scots seemed to keep better records or had less damaged/lost not sure which.

[Barreldriver]

Put the kettle on, get some Welshcakes, relax. Let's chat about any Celtic ancestry that we may or may not have.



Well, my main paternal line is Celtic Briton. The "Celtic" groups in my genealogy are the Welsh, Irish Gaels, and Celtic Swiss.

Not too sure on whether my Scots and Scots-Irish lines were Celtic or Germanic, the regions they originated from in Scotland were primarily from around the River Clyde and East Lothian.

I'm finding that much of my "English" kin are of either a Celtic/Briton origin, or either heavily mixed with Scots. So my English stats were quite skewed in past recordings of data.

[Treffie]

Well, my main paternal line is Celtic Briton. The "Celtic" groups in my genealogy are the Welsh, Irish Gaels, and Celtic Swiss.

Not too sure on whether my Scots and Scots-Irish lines were Celtic or Germanic, the regions they originated from in Scotland were primarily from around the River Clyde and East Lothian.

I'm finding that much of my "English" kin are of either a Celtic/Briton origin, or either heavily mixed with Scots. So my English stats were quite skewed in past recordings of data.

Funny you should say that. You remind me of a bouncer at a local pub :thumb001:

[Barreldriver]

Funny you should say that. You remind me of a bouncer at a local pub :thumb001:

Where's the similarity? Looks or mannerisms? lol I don't know if I could handle another clone. :P lol

[Electronic God-Man]

I'm finding that much of my "English" kin are of either a Celtic/Briton origin, or either heavily mixed with Scots. So my English stats were quite skewed in past recordings of data.

Dude, the English are certainly "Celtic" to some extent anyway. No one has been able to (and probably won't be able to) put an exact amount to the Anglo-Saxon vs native Briton genes in the English. English are English no matter how much "Anglo-Saxon blood" or "Celtic blood" they have.

[Barreldriver]

Dude, the English are certainly "Celtic" to some extent anyway. No one has been able to (and probably won't be able to) put an exact amount to the Anglo-Saxon vs native Briton genes in the English. English are English no matter how much "Anglo-Saxon blood" or "Celtic blood" they have.

My English kin did mix outside of English boundaries extensively, primarily with Scots from East Lothian and from around the River Clyde. So the English element among these English surnames is limited with the amounts of Scots admixture. Then the extensive Welsh and Scots-Irish admixture in the U.S. and further mixture between East Lothian and Clyde Scots in the U.S.

There is however, no doubt in my mind though that the English are literally Celto-Germanic, a mix of the two thouroughly in light of your statement of not knowing the exact ammounts of Anglo-Saxon vs. native Briton genes, however I see no point in denying my significant Celtic element. It is there and I owe it proper respect.

[Osweo]

Hmmm, let's see, yes I'm pretty Celtic, in one way or another. :)

Mo Seanmhathair only got off the potato-boat sixty years or so ago, to be sure. Down in Munster and Ossory, her stock will probably have a lot of true Gael in and Fir Bolg (Q and P Celtic respectively, as opposed to preCeltic Vassal Tribes).

Seanathair was born here to an English mother, but his athair seems to have been of fully Kildare stock.

My Gran is rather more complicated, with a tiny dash of Highland Gael (MacKenzie), a bit of Irish (north Connacht?), and a lot of Lancashire. Our bit of Lancashire (the Lands Between Ribble and Mersey) is full of Welsh toponymy, being incorporated into England relatively late, so there'll be some Celt from that in me. She was a redhead, for what that's worth. A true Brigantia! :p

Grandad was a Geordie, but even Bernicia had its share of Anglo-Welsh intercourse, back in the day. He must have been a red 'carrier', for my Mam to get it. :thumb001:


My English kin did mix outside of English boundaries extensively, primarily with Scots from East Lothian and from around the River Clyde.
East Lothian, otherwise known as Haddingtonshire, was solidly settled by Englishmen from a very early period, as you might tell from its alternative name. ;) The toponymy of the Lothians is rather telling: Midlothian is Edinburgh+, with its hybrid Welsh-English name. Westlothian is Linlithgow, and fully Welsh by name. Berwickshire and Roxburgh are solid English names, and Peebles is Welsh. English settlement was scattered in the further western shires of the Lowlands too, but on a lesser scale.

There is however, no doubt in my mind though that the English are literally Celto-Germanic, a mix of the two thouroughly in light of your statement of not knowing the exact ammounts of Anglo-Saxon vs. native Briton genes, however I see no point in denying my significant Celtic element. It is there and I owe it proper respect.
Aye.

I'm actually roughly 20% Celtic, believe it or not. I have ancestors from Tipperary
Thurles sort of area? That's my most recent 'fresh' Irish, i.e. 25% of it. We're bound to be related, if so. :p

[Electronic God-Man]

Thurles sort of area? That's my most recent 'fresh' Irish, i.e. 25% of it. We're bound to be related, if so. :p

I'd love to know where from exactly in Tipperary, but I have no idea. I likely will never find out since my immigrant ancestor's name was so common for Irish...Patrick Sullivan! :p

[Barreldriver]

East Lothian, otherwise known as Haddingtonshire, was solidly settled by Englishmen from a very early period, as you might tell from its alternative name. ;) The toponymy of the Lothians is rather telling: Midlothian is Edinburgh+, with its hybrid Welsh-English name. Westlothian is Linlithgow, and fully Welsh by name. Berwickshire and Roxburgh are solid English names, and Peebles is Welsh. English settlement was scattered in the further western shires of the Lowlands too, but on a lesser scale.



What about around the River Clyde?

[Osweo]

What about around the River Clyde?
Interesting question.
For starters, Clydesdale is roughly synomymous with Lanarkshire. Lanark is none other than Welsh Llanerch, or 'glade'. The famous places are also Welsh; Glasgow, Clyde itself, Lesmahagow, Govan and Avon. There's a sprinkling of Gaelic, and yet there's far more English stuff than I expected there to be in the upper valley. Lots of the hills are 'x-Law', rather than 'Beinn-x' or 'Craig-x', for instance, and there are villages like Lamington, Abington, Covington, Uddington, Eaglesham, and cleughs, burns and heughs are common (clough, haugh). I don't have a good book for over the border, I'm afraid, and the online material concentrates unfortunately on the Celtic element, so I can't say how OLD this is. Some of it might be due to later naming by Welsh descended locals after the language shift, though I wouldn't expect this to be in too overwhelming a majority of cases.

Toponymy aside, Dumbarton held out (as Alclud) until well into the Viking period, and its lords were always in charge at least of that part of Strathclyde in decent riding distance for their mounted troops.

Eadbeorht of Northumbria launched a major offensive on Strathclyde's western flank (thru Ayrshire) around 750, but up till that point I imagine the Clyde saw little English settlement, and what's there now probably dates from after this.

[Amarantine]

Hmmm, let's see, yes I'm pretty Celtic, in one way or another. :)




No you are not!:coffee:

[Beorn]

Lol. How'd you figure that one out? :)

[Amarantine]

Lol. How'd you figure that one out? :)

question is for me or Oswiu?:D or someone third

If it is for me, today I am sooooo clever woman with brilliant thoughts.

Btw, dear Wat, you could join me, anytime in my philisophic sessions:cool:

[Beorn]

question is for me or Oswiu?:D or someone third

If it is for me, today I am sooooo clever woman with brilliant thoughts.

Btw, dear Wat, you could join me, anytime in my philisophic sessions:cool:

Hey? You've lost me now? :D I was just asking to find out how you thought Oswiu wasn't Celtic.

[Rachel]

Let me sit out in the sun for about 15 minutes ... ill tell you in 15 minutes just how irish i am ;) when i am nice an rosey read :)

edit : celtic sorry ...

[Gooding]

Ugh, I hear you on that, Rachel. Years ago, the surest way for me to get a bad sunburn was to spend a day at the beach.I'd get lobster red, after a few weeks I'd explode in a galaxy of freckles with a slight tan underneath. I'd been vacationing in the mountains since. Better rain and grey days than searing heat and deadly UV rays. But is fair skin an indicator of Celtic heritage or Germanic?:p:D

[Rachel]

try both...?

[Amarantine]

Hey? You've lost me now? :D I was just asking to find out how you thought Oswiu wasn't Celtic.

ah it is not interesting... he is not here:( (if you know what I mean:D).

the answer is: well, isn t that so obvious?:D

[Amarantine]

Ugh, I hear you on that, Rachel. Years ago, the surest way for me to get a bad sunburn was to spend a day at the beach.I'd get lobster red, after a few weeks I'd explode in a galaxy of freckles with a slight tan underneath. I'd been vacationing in the mountains since. Better rain and grey days than searing heat and deadly UV rays. But is fair skin an indicator of Celtic heritage or Germanic?:p:D


Neither one, dear Gooding! Especially for Germans, but with "gentile" continental climate, especially with so much rainy days, it is quite normal to have that "fair" skin, but on Montenrgin cost, under Montenrgin sun...they are quite like fried biscuittes:D not fairy skin at all.

Imposibillity to get tan is quite often here, but is is not connected with red haired people (we have them also, but in minor population). It really interesting thing, some kind of lack of pigmentation, no idea...:cool: I saw very fair people who easilly tanned and people who are not so fairy as you may be, but with problems to be on the sun?! (for example in my familly some examples).

[Osweo]

No you are not!:coffee:
:confused:

ah it is not interesting... he is not here:( (if you know what I mean:D).
Speak of the Devil, and he will appear!

the answer is: well, isn t that so obvious?:D
Afraid not, милая! Аз есм Англокельт! :thumb001:

[Hussar]

North-western Italy was Cisalpine Gallia. ;)

[Stefan]

My Paternal Grandmother is half Breton and her Spanish side is mostly Galician. So she is probably somewhat celtic at least. My mother probably could be considered celtic as well from any English/German groups that fit under that area.

[Arne]

I´m south German..
Idk how much but tribes from the South differs from the North.
Just got some continental celtic genes maybe.

[d3cimat3d]

I am Celtic of the most eastern branch that settled in Moldova, and I have a few family members with red hair and freckles. According to some Soviet etymologists, the word 'Moldova' itself is of Celtic origin.

[Germanicus]

Since i know more about what a Celtic head looks like from using The Apricity, i can spot a Celt a mile off, the head shape is easy to spot straight away.
Observing people in our town i see different headshapes due to the shorter hair styles worn nowadays, also Eastern Europeans are a dead giveaway too, i know instantly know a Bulgarian male by sight.:)

[Treffie]

Since i know more about what a Celtic head looks like from using The Apricity, i can spot a Celt a mile off, the head shape is easy to spot straight away.
Observing people in our town i see different headshapes due to the shorter hair styles worn nowadays, also Eastern Europeans are a dead giveaway too, i know instantly know a Bulgarian male by sight.:)

Can you spot an unshaven Celt? :)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/11-02-10_1048.jpg

[Radojica]

Not that much, but I live at the door steps of one of the oldest Celtic towns in Europe, my Belgrade :thumb001:

[Kadu]

How are we supposed to be aware of our Celtic ancestors' legacy if the language in which they left it is no longer alive. How are customs and traditions supposed to be passed from one generation to the other if the bond is broken.
Celtic people are those whom are or were Celtic speakers until very recently(two hundred years tops) and can pass the legacy of their forefathers to the next generation in the language that the same spoke.

[d3cimat3d]

How are we supposed to be aware of our Celtic ancestors' legacy if the language in which they left it is no longer alive. How are customs and traditions supposed to be passed from one generation to the other if the bond is broken.
Celtic people are those whom are or were Celtic speakers until very recently(two hundred years tops) and can pass the legacy of their forefathers to the next generation in the language that the same spoke.

Red hair and freckles is a good sign.

[Arne]

Red hair and freckles is a good sign.

For Viking Ancestry in my Opinion.
Because the Nortman are mostly redhaired.

[Germanicus]

Can you spot an unshaven Celt? :)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/11-02-10_1048.jpg


Hmmmmm?.... i try not to get that close to a Celt, usually i try to give myself a 2 metre space so i cannot smell the garlic on the breath..:)

[Arne]

Since i know more about what a Celtic head looks like from using The Apricity, i can spot a Celt a mile off, the head shape is easy to spot straight away.
Observing people in our town i see different headshapes due to the shorter hair styles worn nowadays, also Eastern Europeans are a dead giveaway too, i know instantly know a Bulgarian male by sight.:)

Sir Germanicus..
What´s your Viewpoint on this..
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=169582&postcount=2189
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3829&d=1265732814
Can you even recognize an "unshaven" ?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3826&d=1265732814

[Treffie]

Hmmmmm?.... i try not to get that close to a Celt, usually i try to give myself a 2 metre space so i cannot smell the garlic on the breath..:)

I thought you said that you were a full blooded Celt yourself? :)

[Daos]

I am Celtic of the most eastern branch that settled in Moldova, and I have a few family members with red hair and freckles. According to some Soviet etymologists, the word 'Moldova' itself is of Celtic origin.

I'm pretty sure Galatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia) is further East than Moldova...:rolleyes:

[d3cimat3d]

I'm pretty sure Galatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia) is further East than Moldova...:rolleyes:

Galatia is more south than it is east. Besides it's not in Europe even so I don't care about it :tongue

[Albion]

My ancestry is an awkward mix of English and Irish, my maternal side is largely Irish but my paternal side is 100% English as far as I know so I'm about 1/4 to 1/2 Irish, thus Celtic.

I identify as English and I'm an English nationalist but I have a deep respect for the modern Celts and the Welsh, Cornish and Scottish nationalist movements as well. I'd personally say I'm more Germanic than Celtic, so perhaps "Celto-Germanic", but the Celtic influence is quite strong.

[CelticTemplar]

All of my ancestors have always resided in Northern Portugal/Lusitania/Gallaecia, and so have never really had much possibility for mixing with anyone else except other Celts in the area, which would leave me at a full blooded Celt.

[Lábaru]

Celtic Greetings, brothers!!


Cantabria, Cant-abria meaning stone or rock in old celtic, the people of the stones-mountains.

The Cantabri (Greek: Kantabroi) were a pre-Roman Celtic people which lived in the northern Atlantic coastal region of ancient Hispania, from the 4th to late 1st centuries BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Cantabros.png



The mythology of Cantabria turns the Cantabrian forests and mountains into magical places where the myths, beliefs and legends have been present as an essential part of the Cantabrian culture, either because they have been living in the popular heritage through the oral tradition transmitted from father to son, or because they have been recovered by scholars (Manuel Llano and others) who have worried about preserving the cultural heritage. Its mythology and superstitions present a great Celtic influence that has diluted with the pass of time, being romanized or Christianized in many cases. It is remarkable, as in many other cultures, the presence of faboulous beings of giant proportions and cyclopean features (the ojáncanos), fantastic animals (culebres, caballucos del diablo (lit. horses of the devil, damselflies), ramidrejus, etc.), færies (anjanas, ijanas of Aras), duendes (nuberos, ventolines, trentis, trasgus, trastolillos, musgosu, tentirujo), anthropomorphic characters (the sirenuca (little mermaid), the fish-man, the cuegle, the wife-bear of Andara, the guajona), etc.

Long life to the Celts.

[Vasconcelos]

All relatives and ancestors I know of resided from Viseu (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/LocalViseu.svg) northward, so I suppose that's a pretty good chance to have some Celtic in me.

[Grumpy Cat]

Being from Nova Scotia, I probably have a fair amount of Celts in the family tree. Nova Scotia prides itself on its Celtic heritage. Celtic imagery is everywhere.

Actually my French ancestors came from Bretagne and I also have Scottish and Irish in me.

[Osweo]

All of my ancestors have always resided in Northern Portugal/Lusitania/Gallaecia, and so have never really had much possibility for mixing with anyone else except other Celts in the area, which would leave me at a full blooded Celt.
We-ell.... The Lusitani proper seem to have been speakers of not Celtic as such, but a parallel closely related language. There's one longish text - our Iberian colleagues will know its name - that has been discovered, and linguists have likened it more to Italic than Celtic. Still Indo-European, of course.
However, there was a massive overlay of Celtic onto this Lusitanian element - perhaps reflecting the order of migrations into the region.
Additionally, and I was reading about Galicia the other day, it seems that there's a pre-IE substratum to deal with as well. I forget the exact name, but there was a town in the region that began with Ili- or Iri-, like Basque and Iberian names (Iliberris - Elvira = modern Granada, and hmm I forget the exact spelling, but there's a Basque town that sounds almost identical).

Cantabria, Cant-abria meaning stone or rock in old celtic, the people of the stones-mountains.
Hmmm... It's probably debated. I'm just guessing here, but I'm reminded of the element that means 'edge', as in the Cantiaci, from whom the modern English county of Kent takes its name. Kent is on the edge of Britain closest to the continent, of course, and Cantabria's position between the mountains and Iberia's northern coast might involve the same idea, no?

Long life to the Celts.
Beo fada arann! :p Celtiaid am byth! :thumbs

oh, and i arR1ba !
:D

[Lábaru]

Hmmm... It's probably debated. I'm just guessing here, but I'm reminded of the element that means 'edge', as in the Cantiaci, from whom the modern English county of Kent takes its name. Kent is on the edge of Britain closest to the continent, of course, and Cantabria's position between the mountains and Iberia's northern coast might involve the same idea, no?

Beo fada arann! :p Celtiaid am byth! :thumbs

oh, and i arR1ba !
:D

Interesting.

[Guapo]

Put the kettle on, get some Welshcakes, relax. Let's chat about any Celtic ancestry that we may or may not have.



I guess most Europeans and a few Turks have a Celt in the woodpile.

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/images/Celts_in_Europe.png

[Ibericus]

"Modern scholarship, however, has clearly proven that Celtic presence and influences were most substantial in Iberia (with perhaps the highest settlement saturation in Western Europe), particularly in the western and northern regions. "

"The historical Celts were a diverse group of tribal societies in Iron Age Europe. Proto-Celtic culture formed in the Early Iron Age (1200 BC-400 AD) in Central Europe (Hallstatt period, named for the site in present-day Austria). By the later Iron Age (La Tène period), Celts had expanded over a wide range of lands: as far west as Ireland and the Iberian Peninsula, as far east as Galatia (central Anatolia), and as far north as Scotland.[2]
The Celtic languages form a branch of the larger Indo-European family. By the time speakers of Celtic languages enter history around 400 BC (Brennus's attack on Rome in 387 BC), they were already split into several language groups, and spread over much of Central Europe, the Iberian peninsula, Ireland and Britain. "

Alberto J. Lorrio, Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero (2005). "The Celts in Iberia: An Overview". E-Keltoi: Journal of Interdisciplinary Celtic Studies 6: 167–254. http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.html.

[CelticTemplar]

We-ell.... The Lusitani proper seem to have been speakers of not Celtic as such, but a parallel closely related language. There's one longish text - our Iberian colleagues will know its name - that has been discovered, and linguists have likened it more to Italic than Celtic. Still Indo-European, of course.
However, there was a massive overlay of Celtic onto this Lusitanian element - perhaps reflecting the order of migrations into the region.
Additionally, and I was reading about Galicia the other day, it seems that there's a pre-IE substratum to deal with as well. I forget the exact name, but there was a town in the region that began with Ili- or Iri-, like Basque and Iberian names (Iliberris - Elvira = modern Granada, and hmm I forget the exact spelling, but there's a Basque town that sounds almost identical).

Hmmm... It's probably debated. I'm just guessing here, but I'm reminded of the element that means 'edge', as in the Cantiaci, from whom the modern English county of Kent takes its name. Kent is on the edge of Britain closest to the continent, of course, and Cantabria's position between the mountains and Iberia's northern coast might involve the same idea, no?

Beo fada arann! :p Celtiaid am byth! :thumbs

oh, and i arR1ba !
:D
I understand that there has been a debate over whether the Lusitanians were actually Celtic or just adopted the Celtic culture. However Lusitanian only makes up a portion of by blood, the majority of my ancestors coming from the far north of Portugal, even northern Spain assures me that I am a Celt, I am proud to be one :thumbs up.

[Belenus]

My mother is 3/4 Irish and 1/4 highland Scottish, so that half of me is very Celtic.

My father has a Scottish father and a mother who is half-Scottish and half-Maori.

So I'm 3/8 Irish, 4/8 Scottish, and 1/8 Maori (although my closest Maori ancestor was probably already part-white, based on what I've been able to ascertain about her, meaning I've actually got less than 1/8).

In any case, I'm 7/8 Celtic and proud of it.

[rhiannon]

I have a lot of Celtic in my ancestry. My ancestors came from all over the British Isles for one....and also Holland, Germany, and France. All of these nations have Celtic history do they not?

My guess is that my ancestry is about 50/50 Celt/Germanic.

[rhiannon]

Some surnames in my family are:

Cressey-father's side
Lloyd-mother's side
Evans-father's side
Phillips-mother's side
Byrne-father's side
Ely-mother's side
Clancy-mother's side

[Anthropologique]

I'm practically all Celtic. 100% Breton (Brest region) on the paternal side and nearly 100% Gallaecian (basically Galician and Northern Portuguese - possibly some Asturian) maternally.

[Anthropologique]

I understand that there has been a debate over whether the Lusitanians were actually Celtic or just adopted the Celtic culture. However Lusitanian only makes up a portion of by blood, the majority of my ancestors coming from the far north of Portugal, even northern Spain assures me that I am a Celt, I am proud to be one :thumbs up.

The Lusitanians were Proto-Celts and spoke an IE language. The debate is centered on wether or not the Lusitanian language was Celtic (it shows many Celtic influences). Currently it is loosely codified as Para-Celtic. The Lusitanian culture was, without doubt, Celtic and very similar to the Gallaecians and Astures.

[rhiannon]

oops.
I had already replied to this. Doh!

Anyway....I can't tell when my Celtic ends and my Germanic begins. The two are totally intertwined.

[Ibericus]

The Lusitanians were Proto-Celts and spoke an IE language. The debate is centered on wether or not the Lusitanian language was Celtic (it shows many Celtic influences). Currently it is loosely codified as Para-Celtic. The Lusitanian culture was, without doubt, Celtic and very similar to the Gallaecians and Astures.
Correct. When Diodorus describes human sacrifices carried out by druids in Gaul, he outlines a similar procedure to that described by Strabo among the Lusitanians. Culturally the Lusitanians were celtic or celtized, but the language is another debate. It is tought an archaic form of Celtic.

[Osweo]

Culturally the Lusitanians were celtic or celtized, but the language is another debate. It is thought to be an archaic form of Celtic.

I see no reason to bundle Lusitanian with Celtic in linguistic terms. It seems more of an isolated IE branch of its own. See:


3) Lusit. taurom (acc. sg.) < IE. *tau¾ros ‘bull’ (cf. Lat. taurus, Gk. taûroj ‘bull’, Lith. tau~ras ‘bison’, Pol. tur ‘Auerochs’) vs. Gaul. taruos, MIr. tarb, W. tarw, Corn. tarow, Bret. taro ‘bull’. All the Celtic languages show the common metathesis -u¾r- > -ru¾-, but Lusitanian does not follow the same development.

4) Lusit. oilam acc. sg. (from *owi-laº-m) < IE. *óu¾is ‘sheep’ (cf. Lat. ouis, Skt. ávih, Gk. ¾ïj) vs. OIr. oi ‘ewe’, Gaulish PN Ovio-rix (from CC. *owis) and W. ewig ‘doe’, OCorn. euhig gl. cerva (from Brittonic *ou¾ikaº). Although the reconstructed archetype *ou¾ilaº-m, proposed by Tovar (1966-67, p. 244; 1985, p. 234) is convincing from the phonological point of view, there are no attested parallels for such a derivation from IE. *óu¾is ‘sheep’ in Celtic or any other Indo-European languages. Therefore I agree with K. H. Schmidt’s opinion (1985, p. 336) that «the Celtic character of Lusitanian oilam cannot be regarded as proven».

- ON THE INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGIN OF TWO LUSITANIAN THEONYMS
(LAEBO AND REVE)1
KRZYSZTOF TOMASZWITCZAK
£ódz

It is not open to doubt that there was an immense cultural impact felt by the Lusitani from the Celts. Language divided them, but they were often in convergence in all other spheres.

[Anthropologique]

I see no reason to bundle Lusitanian with Celtic in linguistic terms. It seems more of an isolated IE branch of its own. See:



It is not open to doubt that there was an immense cultural impact felt by the Lusitani from the Celts. Language divided them, but they were often in convergence in all other spheres.

It is well known that Gallaic, (Gallaecian Celtic - Galicia, N. Portugal) had a Lusitanian substratum (see Wodtko, 2010).

[Albion]

Galicia is about as Celtic in culture as England or Belgium - negligable. But the genetics are still there in all three of course, but genetics only.

[Anthropologique]

Galicia is about as Celtic in culture as England or Belgium - negligable. But the genetics are still there in all three of course, but genetics only.


Have you per chance read Raimund Karl's paper in Celtic from the West? He has some interesting perspectives with respect to the notion of Celticity.

Raimund Karl, The Celts From Everywhere and Nowhere: A Re-evaluation of the Origins of the Celts and the Emergence of Celtic Cultures , in Celtic from the West: Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language and Literature. eds, Barry Cunliffe and J. Koch. Oxford, 2010, Oxbow Books.

[Damião de Góis]

Correct. When Diodorus describes human sacrifices carried out by druids in Gaul, he outlines a similar procedure to that described by Strabo among the Lusitanians. Culturally the Lusitanians were celtic or celtized, but the language is another debate. It is tought an archaic form of Celtic.

No one knows for sure if they were Celts or Iberians. They lived surrounded by Celts or Celticized people, so it's normal that they were influenced by them.

http://files.giltradutor.webnode.com.br/200000144-8efe58ff84/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.png

According to a History of Portugal book i have, they did some things the Celtic way: they burned their dead, were skilled with iron, and their Gods, people, and places all had names which suggest a Celtic origin. On the other hand, they left the Meseta because of the Celts and they used a round shield and did war in a way characteristic of Iberians.

[Anthropologique]

The Lusitanians were an Indo-European tribe who spoke an IE language that was a likely a form of Proto-Celtic. They are thought to have migrated from the Alps along with the Lussons. I have not seen any evidence that they were related to Iberians, a non-IE people.

[Albion]

Have you per chance read Raimund Karl's paper in Celtic from the West? He has some interesting perspectives with respect to the notion of Celticity.

Raimund Karl, The Celts From Everywhere and Nowhere: A Re-evaluation of the Origins of the Celts and the Emergence of Celtic Cultures , in Celtic from the West: Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language and Literature. eds, Barry Cunliffe and J. Koch. Oxford, 2010, Oxbow Books.

Yes.

[Treffie]

Have you per chance read Raimund Karl's paper in Celtic from the West? He has some interesting perspectives with respect to the notion of Celticity.

Raimund Karl, The Celts From Everywhere and Nowhere: A Re-evaluation of the Origins of the Celts and the Emergence of Celtic Cultures , in Celtic from the West: Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language and Literature. eds, Barry Cunliffe and J. Koch. Oxford, 2010, Oxbow Books.

J.T. Koch has also theorised that the Celts originated from Iberia, and that the Tartessians were the original Celts. However, it doesn't mean that these places are Celtic now.

[Anthropologique]

J.T. Koch has also theorised that the Celts originated from Iberia, and that the Tartessians were the original Celts. However, it doesn't mean that these places are Celtic now.

One can argue that no nation is fully Celtic now, since the large majority of the natives in ancient Celtic lands do not, as a matter of course, practice Celtic culture or speak Celtic languages. However, many of the regions along the Atlantic Facade do have a Celtic identity. These people tend to identify as Celtic for very valid historical and, to a lesser extent, socio-cultural reasons.

[Treffie]

One can argue that no nation is fully Celtic now, since the large majority of the natives in ancient Celtic lands do not, as a matter of course, practice Celtic culture or speak Celtic languages. However, many of the regions along the Atlantic Facade do have a Celtic identity. These people tend to identify as Celtic for very valid historical and, to a lesser extent, socio-cultural reasons.

I for one believe that language is an essential part of defining ethnicity, or if the population has lost the use of the language within living memory (approx 4-6 generations).

[Anthropologique]

I for one believe that language is an essential part of defining ethnicity, or if the population has lost the use of the language within living memory (approx 4-6 generations).


It's interesting that there is currently an effort under way to reconstruct Gallaic, supported by the Celtic League of Galicia. Lusitianian (Para-Celtic) has already been reconstructed in good part by a political organization in central Portugal.

[Trog]

No one knows for sure if they were Celts or Iberians. They lived surrounded by Celts or Celticized people, so it's normal that they were influenced by them.

http://files.giltradutor.webnode.com.br/200000144-8efe58ff84/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.png

According to a History of Portugal book i have, they did some things the Celtic way: they burned their dead, were skilled with iron, and their Gods, people, and places all had names which suggest a Celtic origin. On the other hand, they left the Meseta because of the Celts and they used a round shield and did war in a way characteristic of Iberians.

And they bathed in piss:D

[Treffie]

It's interesting that there is currently an effort under way to reconstruct Gallaic, supported by the Celtic League of Galicia. Lusitianian (Para-Celtic) has already been reconstructed in good part by a political organization in central Portugal.

I can't see the point in reviving extinct languages, it'll never be a living, working language - although I do believe in fighting for and strengthening what is left. It'll probably end up something like Cornish.

[Damião de Góis]

And they bathed in piss:D

lol :p
Apparently the Celtiberi did. You can find them on the center-east of that map. Where they learned that custom i don't know...

[Osweo]

I thought the piss was used only for dental hygiene purposes? :confused:

[GeistFaust]

I don't know how I would define how Celtic I am perhaps I could make a rough estimation but I am sure that would not even do it justice. Some of the surnames on my Irish sides are English sounding(Moore) or Scottish. Also there have been some minuscle non-Celtic influences in a predominantly Celtic culture like Ireland but I am sure this with every country. On my Scottish sides they all come from the Southwestern and Western corner with a few come from the more Central and Southeastern Corners.


I am sure I have tons of Anglo-Saxon ancestry not to mention some possible Norman lines. That said I am about 30% Irish and 10-15% Scottish so I suppose if you cut about 5% off of my Irish side and 5 or 7.5% off my Scottish sides it might be a good way of trying to approximate the exact percentages with some margin for error. I would think probably about 1/3rd of my background is Celtic per se but than again there were Celtic tribes in Southwestern Germany.

Perhaps I have some influences genetically there as well. I think Celtic speaking populations and cultures tend to be ethnically Celtic as well with the exception of Scotland which seems to have alot of Germanic influences in many areas. I usually think a people are identified more strictly on the basis of linguistic and cultural affiliations rather than ethnic but usually these three factors shape the identity of a people.

I just give more emphasis to the first two generally although not always. There is rarely a homogenous population ethnically speaking and of all the Celtic nations I would have to say Ireland and Wales are the two most homogenous along with Brittany and perhaps Galicia. Cultural and Linguistic affiliations are usually indicative of the general ethnic structure of a people but I don't always think its always an accurate marker for certain populations.

Also some Celtic surnames that are rather recent in my family line is O'Hare, Fahey, Brady, McSherry, Egan, McDonough, McCoskery, Gillepsie, McWhirter, Mickey, and McNutt.

[Damião de Góis]

I thought the piss was used only for dental hygiene purposes? :confused:

I don't think that makes it any better :p

[Trog]

I am sure there was some sort of therapeutic benefits; urine has been used throughout history in the most obscure ways. There are still people who say it has useful properties even in contemporary times. So it's not something that indicates they were especially dirty people, quite the contrary. Their diets would also have been much healthier and with less chemicals, so the urine would have been very organic, I'm sure.

PS - I think I'm the most Celtic person here.

[Treffie]

I am sure there was some sort of therapeutic benefits; urine has been used throughout history in the most obscure ways. There are still people who say it has useful properties even in contemporary times. So it's not something that indicates they were especially dirty people, quite the contrary. Their diets would also have been much healthier and with less chemicals, so the urine would have been very organic, I'm sure.

PS - I think I'm the most Celtic person here.

Pog mo thoin! :p

[Osweo]

I don't think that makes it any better :p
Well....

I can EASILY produce enough piss to rinse my teeth with.

To bathe, however, I would require... urinary assistance. :ohwell: :D

[Damião de Góis]

To bathe, however, I would require... urinary assistance. :ohwell: :D

I never thought of that. But i guess the Celtiberi were a close community and shared a lot of things among themselves.

[Trog]

Pog mo thoin! :p

I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week to prove it. Only that wee hairy "English" man is probably my main challenger.

[Damião de Góis]

I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week to prove it. Only that wee hairy "English" man is probably my main challenger.

I'm not Celtic at all, so don't even count me. I just came here to answer some things about the Lusitanians ;)

[Treffie]

I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week to prove it. Only that wee hairy "English" man is probably my main challenger.

Real Celts don't need to argue, we know it ;)

[Trog]

I'm not Celtic at all, so don't even count me. I just came here to answer some things about the Lusitanians ;)

I would guide you to the title of this thread so you can stop being so conceited and paranoid that some Celtress is somehow eyeing you up as a clan member. You can relax.

[GeistFaust]

Sorcha would I be too Germanic for you.

[Trog]

I'm not Celtic at all, so don't even count me. I just came here to answer some things about the Lusitanians ;)

It disappoints me rather that you would so easily dismiss a western European connection. Has the image of those lobsterfied Brits littering your streets caused such haughtiness?

[Anthropologique]

I can't see the point in reviving extinct languages, it'll never be a living, working language - although I do believe in fighting for and strengthening what is left. It'll probably end up something like Cornish.

Probably...

Cornish nearly died out. I believe there was only one speaker left until about 5-10 years ago.

[Damião de Góis]

It disappoints me rather that you would so easily dismiss a western European connection. Has the image of those lobsterfied Brits littering your streets caused such haughtiness?

Nah, i don't see british chavs here or where i vacation in Algarve. Rather families with kids.
I was half joking anyway, and of course there is a connection. On 23andme i have cousins from all over Europe. Also, since celts were in these parts, i don't dismiss anything.

[Anthropologique]

I thought the piss was used only for dental hygiene purposes? :confused:

That was my impression as well.

[GeistFaust]

I do believe in strengthening and trying to preserve the certain linguistic traditions because I think its integrable to a culture and a people's identity. Unfortunately as the British Isles is being overrun by foreigners I think this puts alot of these linguistic traditions at risk of being undermined and devalued. This would be due to the culture and ethnic connections to that particular language integrating influences that are too foreign to those particular culture and ethnic backgrounds.

P.S. Sorcha there is nothing more Celtic than having a few beers while arguing about Celtic issues with an occasional outburst or physical altercation.

[Trog]

Nah, i don't see british chavs here or where i vacation in Algarve. Rather families with kids.
I was half joking anyway, and of course there is a connection. On 23andme i have cousins from all over Europe. Also, since celts were in these parts, i don't dismiss anything.

Welcome, warriors! To you who have come from afar, this island shall henceforth belong, and from the setting to the rising sun there is no better land. And your race will be the most perfect the world has ever seen.

[Damião de Góis]

Welcome, warriors! To you who have come from afar, this island shall henceforth belong, and from the setting to the rising sun there is no better land. And your race will be the most perfect the world has ever seen.

That's a nice speech. But it should be directed at Insular Celts :)

[Osweo]

I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week to prove it. Only that wee hairy "English" man is probably my main challenger.
Yep. I'm defecting now, too, considering my new Roxburgh inheritance. :cool:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/RoxburghshireBrit3.PNG
http://www.roxburgh.bordernet.co.uk/news/images/small/2468-1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1c/Roxburghshire_arms_.png/200px-Roxburghshire_arms_.png
http://www.ukcottages.co.uk/Images/Pages/Guides/SubSubRegion_15.jpg
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usfeatures/areas/images/roxburghshire-450.jpg
http://www.rampantscotland.com/castles/graphics2/hermitage_castle_borders6175a.jpg


and

http://cache0.bookdepository.co.uk/assets/images/book/medium/9780/4124/9780412411304.jpg

:suomut:

[Anthropologique]

Yep. I'm defecting now, too, considering my new Roxburgh inheritance. :cool:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/RoxburghshireBrit3.PNG
http://www.roxburgh.bordernet.co.uk/news/images/small/2468-1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1c/Roxburghshire_arms_.png/200px-Roxburghshire_arms_.png
http://www.ukcottages.co.uk/Images/Pages/Guides/SubSubRegion_15.jpg
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usfeatures/areas/images/roxburghshire-450.jpg
http://www.rampantscotland.com/castles/graphics2/hermitage_castle_borders6175a.jpg

OUCH!! LMAO!!


and

http://cache0.bookdepository.co.uk/assets/images/book/medium/9780/4124/9780412411304.jpg

:suomut:

[Anthropologique]

Sorry, wrote within the quote.

[Trog]

P.S. Sorcha there is nothing more Celtic than having a few beers while arguing about Celtic issues with an occasional outburst or physical altercation.

I've noted a strange feeling that overwhelms me when I find myself in certain, often remote, places. It's a sudden rush of something that I can't quite categorise or relate to ordinarily. I thought I would feel it in Israel, in the Garden of Gethsemane. I didn't. At spot, Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified, I still didn't feel anything. I climbed the hills of Carrowkeel in ireland to visit the Neolithic tombs and felt something....but it was in a place called Balquihidder that I was consumed. It was almost like I had lived there in the past, and all at once I was experiencing feelings of sadness and pride and belonging. Yet this was the first time I had ever been to the place. It's not far from where Rob Roy and his family are buried, I took a detour on the way and ended up in this valley on the way there that stopped me in my tracks. I was never sure why.

Then I learned that the place where I experienced this nirvana was known to Celts as the boundary between heaven and earth and was where the Celts of the area where Christianised. So I had connected spiritually to a place that I never knew about, have never been to and was only passing through randomly to get to another destination.

I think this is what being Celtic is about; mystery, spirituality and connection.

[Anthropologique]

I've noted a strange feeling that overwhelms me when I find myself in certain, often remote, places. It's a sudden rush of something that I can't quite categorise or relate to ordinarily. I thought I would feel it in Israel, in the Garden of Gethsemane. I didn't. At spot, Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified, I still didn't feel anything. I climbed the hills of Carrowkeel in ireland to visit the Neolithic tombs and felt something....but it was in a place called Balquihidder that I was consumed. It was almost like I had lived there in the past, and all at once I was experiencing feelings of sadness and pride and belonging. Yet this was the first time I had ever been to the place. It's not far from where Rob Roy and his family are buried, I took a detour on the way and ended up in this valley on the way there that stopped me in my tracks. I was never sure why.

Then I learned that the place where I experienced this nirvana was known to Celts as the boundary between heaven and earth and was where the Celts of the area where Christianised. So I had connected spiritually to a place that I never knew about, have never been to and was only passing through randomly to get to another destination.

I think this is what being Celtic is about; mystery, spirituality and connection.

Very, very nice.:thumbs up

[GeistFaust]

Personal experience normally sometimes is able to validate a nearness you might have in relation to a location. Perhaps that location is more than a location because it represents to you something that you truly are. This is one of the reason why I think that cultural, linguistic, and ethnic presevation are necessary and imperative because in a sense you are staying true to your past self and giving it continuation.

[Trog]

I admire your wisdom, Geistfaust, even though it can be exhausting at times for some.

[Damião de Góis]

I have those feelings everytime i'm in Lisbon or when i cross the river. And i have no connection with it :D

[AussieScott]

I'm spiritually Celtic, but the Nordic berserker warrior always comes out when I need him, and my French/Prussian military strategist seems to always rise when I call.

Maybe I'm just schizophrenic... :-)

Sutherland is my paternal clan, then there is many clans on the maternal side, too many to count.

[Argyll]

I am Celti-hardly Germanic. The only Germanic parts come from my English ancestry, but even the English are mostly Celtic.

[Argyll]

I've noted a strange feeling that overwhelms me when I find myself in certain, often remote, places. It's a sudden rush of something that I can't quite categorise or relate to ordinarily. I thought I would feel it in Israel, in the Garden of Gethsemane. I didn't. At spot, Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified, I still didn't feel anything. I climbed the hills of Carrowkeel in ireland to visit the Neolithic tombs and felt something....but it was in a place called Balquihidder that I was consumed. It was almost like I had lived there in the past, and all at once I was experiencing feelings of sadness and pride and belonging. Yet this was the first time I had ever been to the place. It's not far from where Rob Roy and his family are buried, I took a detour on the way and ended up in this valley on the way there that stopped me in my tracks. I was never sure why.

Then I learned that the place where I experienced this nirvana was known to Celts as the boundary between heaven and earth and was where the Celts of the area where Christianised. So I had connected spiritually to a place that I never knew about, have never been to and was only passing through randomly to get to another destination.

I think this is what being Celtic is about; mystery, spirituality and connection.

I wonder if I would feel a type of ecstasy if I were to visit any heathen Celtic sites like Stonehenge, Callanish, and the various other Celtic ritual places.

[Osweo]

You do a dishonour to your ancestors, Argyll (as usual). You have no way of ascertaining if your particular British and Irish ancestors were from regions with a considerable Germanic genetic impact, therefore the possibility remains open. And to call England 'mostly Celtic' is a joke in any field other than the strictly genetic, but even in that it's pretty crude and stupid. The fact is, you embrace the 'Celtic' because you have been deceived that that identity fits best with your modern airy fairy notions, and have been brainwashed to see nothing but scary patriarchal homophobes in the 'Germanic'.

Stonehenge and Callanish were standing long before any Celt set foot on these islands, too. :tsk:

[Argyll]

You do a dishonour to your ancestors, Argyll (as usual). You have no way of ascertaining if your particular British and Irish ancestors were from regions with a considerable Germanic genetic impact, therefore the possibility remains open. And to call England 'mostly Celtic' is a joke in any field other than the strictly genetic, but even in that it's pretty crude and stupid. The fact is, you embrace the 'Celtic' because you have been deceived that that identity fits best with your modern airy fairy notions, and have been brainwashed to see nothing but scary patriarchal homophobes in the 'Germanic'.

Stonehenge and Callanish were standing long before any Celt set foot on these islands, too. :tsk:

Osweo, where the hell do you think the Celts came from? Did you think that the earth just pulled them out of it's ass and set them somewhere? If you noticed anything, where ever the Celts have been, they have had stone circles and standing stones. I'm not even getting into the historical debate because you'll get your knickers in such a tight twist again.

[Argyll]

and have been brainwashed to see nothing but scary patriarchal homophobes in the 'Germanic'.

I have not been brainwashed. I like the Germanic part too, but I feel more in tune with the Celtic part. I have nothing against the Germanic peoples.

[Osweo]

Osweo, where the hell do you think the Celts came from? Did you think that the earth just pulled them out of it's ass and set them somewhere? If you noticed anything, where ever the Celts have been, they have had stone circles and standing stones. I'm not even getting into the historical debate because you'll get your knickers in such a tight twist again.

Central Europe, of course. Modern Celtic Britons are Germanicised Celticised Aborigines, not Germanicised Celts.

[Argyll]

Central Europe, of course. Modern Celtic Britons are Germanicised Celticised Aborigines, not Germanicised Celts.

Well, I think they originated somewhere in the British Isles, mayber norther Scotland or Ireland. But that's also kind of biased because of my spirituality.

[Treffie]

Osweo, where the hell do you think the Celts came from? Did you think that the earth just pulled them out of it's ass and set them somewhere? If you noticed anything, where ever the Celts have been, they have had stone circles and standing stones. I'm not even getting into the historical debate because you'll get your knickers in such a tight twist again.

Argyll, it was the pre-Celts or ancient Britons who erected S'Henge and other ancient monuments. S'Henge was erected about 2,000 years BC, whereas the Celts arrived at about 500BC

Read up on Megalithic Culture


Well, I think they originated somewhere in the British Isles, mayber norther Scotland or Ireland. But that's also kind of biased because of my spirituality.

:shakefist

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Megalithic_Culture.PNG

[Osweo]

I have not been brainwashed. I like the Germanic part too, but I feel more in tune with the Celtic part. I have nothing against the Germanic peoples.

Your avatar http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=2805&dateline=1316799406 owes more to the Germanics than to the Celts.

That kind of knotwork AND the 'animal style' is not seen on Celtic artefacts until they encountered the Anglo-Saxons. You feel in tune with that kind of art because you THINK it's 'Celtic', but are in fact admiring a Germanic aesthetic device.

[Argyll]

Argyll, it was the pre-Celts or ancient Britons who erected S'Henge and other ancient monuments. S'Henge was erected about 2,000 years BC, whereas the Celts arrived at about 500BC

Read up on Megalithic Culture



:shakefist

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Megalithic_Culture.PNG

How do you know if the Celts didn't originate from the megalithic people?

[Argyll]

Your avatar http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=2805&dateline=1316799406 owes more to the Germanics than to the Celts.

That kind of knotwork AND the 'animal style' is not seen on Celtic artefacts until they encountered the Anglo-Saxons. You feel in tune with that kind of art because you THINK it's 'Celtic', but are in fact admiring a Germanic aesthetic device.

Oh really? A lot of the knotwork has been seen in extremely early Pictish artwork as well.

[Treffie]

How do you know if the Celts didn't originate from the megalithic people?

Read up about Hallstatt and La Tene (http://celts.etrusia.co.uk/celtic_cultures.php). This is what most academics see as the origins of the Celts.

[Osweo]

Oh really? A lot of the knotwork has been seen in extremely early Pictish artwork as well.

The carvings you have in mind are probably nowhere near as old as you seem to think! It has been suggested that they could even have been a response to the crosses of the Angles. Or to the altars of the Romans. It's hard to date a lump of rock. But feel free to show me some of this 'Celtic knotwork'...

And links between that part of Scotland (i.e. the east coast) and Scandinavia have long been mused over, anyway.

[Scrapple]

Argyll read The Ancient Celts by Barry Cunliffe
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Celts-Barry-Cunliffe/dp/0140254226

It will get you caught up on the current state of Celt research.

[Argyll]

Argyll read The Ancient Celts by Barry Cunliffe
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Celts-Barry-Cunliffe/dp/0140254226

It will get you caught up on the current state of Celt research.

Sadly, I haven't been able to get any "current" information on the Celts. The books at my library are much too dated for my tastes (the only "good" one was from the 70s). I'm really looking forward, though, to reading the Gaelic Otherworld and The Sea Kingdoms.

[Argyll]

The carvings you have in mind are probably nowhere near as old as you seem to think! It has been suggested that they could even have been a response to the crosses of the Angles. Or to the altars of the Romans. It's hard to date a lump of rock. But feel free to show me some of this 'Celtic knotwork'...

And links between that part of Scotland (i.e. the east coast) and Scandinavia have long been mused over, anyway.

Take a gander at the Book of Kells. Written and formed in Ireland, wayyyy before any Germanic folk could get their hands on it.

[Albion]

Argyll, it was the pre-Celts or ancient Britons who erected S'Henge and other ancient monuments. S'Henge was erected about 2,000 years BC, whereas the Celts arrived at about 500BC

Read up on Megalithic Culture



:shakefist

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Megalithic_Culture.PNG

This is where I see my ancestry, hence one of my former profile pics was of a stone circle.
Celts, Germanics or whatever, most Brits are aboriginal and pre-date such cultures as I believe my ancestry does too.

Argyll, you'd be better to look towards the likes of Callanish than Stonehenge. The descendants of the people who built Stonehenge will almost certainly still inhabit Salisbury Plain, Wiltshire and the surrounding areas.

Anyway, Callanish is older and doesn't have roads going past it and is surrounded by raw nature. It has a mystical air about it. Stonehenge is surrounded by open fields and near a road. Go figure. :thumb001:

[Osweo]

Take a gander at the Book of Kells. Written and formed in Ireland, wayyyy before any Germanic folk could get their hands on it.

That is EXACTLY what I had in mind!!! :rotfl:

LOOK at the Book of Kells. And LOOK at my signature below, taken from the Lindisfarne Gospels.

Then, LOOK at Anglo-Saxon heathen art (in brooches, buckles, helmet decoration) and LOOK at pagan Celtic art.

You will then see that the 'Insular Manuscript Art' is a FUSION of the two!

La Tene art is mostly abstract, though sometimes animals and figures are suggested by the curves and sinewy shapes.

You probably have to thank Oswald and Osweo for building the Irish-Northumbrian English link. THAT is how the motifs of Germanic art entered the repertoire of the Irish monks.

If you look at my sig, there are clear La Tene Celtic signs in the golden discs with little shapes in them. But the animals and knotwork are of the North Sea...

[Trog]

Central Europe, of course. Modern Celtic Britons are Germanicised Celticised Aborigines, not Germanicised Celts.

Yet another reason for the rejection that we're Germanics too. People convienently, perhaps even lazily use 'Celt' to describe Britons prior to the Anglo-Saxon arrivals. Anglo-saxons never conquered Scotland, Wales or Cornwall.

Argyll is also correct in pointing out the intricate details and knots that are evident in the artwork of the Picts:

http://www.tribal-celtic-tattoo.com/New_Folder/Book%20o6.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6177/6133270387_e860e60359.jpg

[Trog]

That is EXACTLY what I had in mind!!! :rotfl:

LOOK at the Book of Kells. And LOOK at my signature below, taken from the Lindisfarne Gospels.

Then, LOOK at Anglo-Saxon heathen art (in brooches, buckles, helmet decoration) and LOOK at pagan Celtic art.

You will then see that the 'Insular Manuscript Art' is a FUSION of the two!

La Tene art is mostly abstract, though sometimes animals and figures are suggested by the curves and sinewy shapes.

You probably have to thank Oswald and Osweo for building the Irish-Northumbrian English link. THAT is how the motifs of Germanic art entered the repertoire of the Irish monks.

If you look at my sig, there are clear La Tene Celtic signs in the golden discs with little shapes in them. But the animals and knotwork are of the North Sea...

Do you have any examples of Anglo-Saxon art prior to their arrival in Britain?

Books of Kells extract:

http://www.marierutkoski.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/book-of-kells1.png
Picitish
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/2730447183_f0cd588954_z.jpg?zz=1
http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/3/82/9283/v0_master.jpg

[Osweo]

The Pictish stones show border panels identical to the Ruthwell and Bewcastle crosses. ENGLISH crosses. They are not older than the Germanic presence in Britain. The Picts were inspired BY the Anglian crosses, that many of them will have seen!

NEXT, please!

[Albion]

Yet another reason for the rejection that we're Germanics too.

And another reason to reject the label 'Celts' too.

I'm starting to think that with the blend of Celtic and Germanic cultures with sprinklings of Romanic imposed onto a aboriginal culture, that we'd perhaps be better just adopting a term better suited to the British Isles.

'Brittanic Peoples' would be good if it didn't carry political connotations, the Irish would never go with it and not many Scots would either.
'Prytannic Peoples' might be better.
It doesn't mean we have to have any unity, modern Germanics and Romanics on the continent show little of that.


People convienently, perhaps even lazily use 'Celt' to describe Britons prior to the Anglo-Saxon arrivals. Anglo-saxons never conquered Scotland, Wales or Cornwall.

Anglo-Saxons conquered and settled Lothian, the Scottish Borders and a few other areas of Southern Scotland! :eek:
Granted they were perhaps just Britons who'd taken on the Anglo-Saxon culture, but that makes them Anglo-Saxons nevertheless.

[Trog]

The Pictish stones show border panels identical to the Ruthwell and Bewcastle crosses. ENGLISH crosses. They are not older than the Germanic presence in Britain. The Picts were inspired BY the Anglian crosses, that many of them will have seen!

NEXT, please!

Are you serious? The Anglo-Saxons had to be taught and converted by the Celts before they were inspired to draw any cross. EVIDENCE please!

For there are thousands of Pictish stones that were built with intricate details even before they were converted to Christianity. Show me one single example of Anglo-Saxon crosses that date before their conversion to Christianity! YOU CANT!

Also, the Book of Kells and Pictish stones feature kelpies and eich uisges(water horses) and even water bulls and these creatures are characteristic of Scottish folklore. You also claim that all the animals were of the North Sea, again I ask ARE YOU SERIOUS? There's even Pictish stones showing Picts running away from animals and a lot of mythical creatures as well!

[Osweo]

Honestly, there is nothing radical in what I'm saying here. Look at this;


Celtic Knots
Celtic knots or Celtic interlace are ornamental patterns that were primarily used to decorate Bible manuscripts, monuments (notably Celtic crosses and cross slabs) and jewellery. They probably were used in other media such as wood carving and textiles but these have not survived. Knot work tradition in manuscript painting possibly came to Ireland in the middle of the 7th century in manuscripts illuminated by Coptic monks from Egypt or Syria. From Ireland the style spread to Scotland, Wales, and Northumbria and, with missionaries of the Celtic Church to Europe. Viking raiders later appropriated some of the design concepts into a more chaotic style of animal interlace.
Celtic knots are complete loops with no end or beginning. Celtic animal interlace is similar in construction but the cords terminate in feet, heads, tails etc. The animal designs are very much influenced by older Saxon traditions of abstract beast forms that, when combined with the new more sophisticated knot work of the Celtic designers, became known as 'Hiberno-Saxon'.
http://www.elfwood.com/farp/theart/nooyknots/nooyknots.html
= obviously not the most scholarly source, but enough to indicate that the non-Celticness of the knotwork is a widely accepted thing.

I disagree with the Syrian link (though the vinescroll stuff is from round there) and I think the link is too dismissive of knotwork in early Germanic art.

Ah, see Wiki;

Northern Europe
Interlace is a key feature of the "Style II" animal style decoration of Migration Period art, and is found widely across Northern Europe, and even in Lombard art from Northern Italy, beginning in about 560-570. Typically the long "ribbons" eventually terminate in an animal's head. By about 700 it becomes less common in most of Europe, but continues to develop in the British Isles and Scandinavia, where it is found on metalwork, woodcarving, runestones, high crosses, and illuminated manuscripts of the 7th to 12th centuries. Artist George Bain has characterised the early Celtic knotwork found in the 7th century Book of Durrow and the Durham Cathedral Gospel Book fragment as "broken and rejoined" braids.[2] Whether Coptic braid patterns were transmitted directly to Hiberno-Scottish monasteries from the eastern Mediterranean or came via Lombardic Italy is uncertain.[1] Art historian James Johnson Sweeney argued for direct communication between the scriptoria of Early Christian Ireland and the Coptic monasteries of Egypt.[3]
This new style featured elongated beasts intertwined into symmetrical shapes, and can be dated to the mid-7th century based on the accepted dating of examples in the Sutton Hoo treasure.[1] The most elaborate interlaced zoomorphics occur in Viking Age art of the Urnes style (arising before 1050), where tendrils of foliate designs intertwine with the stylized animals.[4]
The full-flowering of Northern European interlace occurred in the Insular art of the British Isles, where the animal style ornament of Northern Europe blended with ribbon knotwork and Christian influences in such works as the Book of Kells and the Cross of Cong.[1] Whole carpet pages were illuminated with abstract patterns, including much use of interlace, and stone high crosses combined interlace panels with figurative ones. Insular interlace was copied in continental Europe, closely in the Franco-Saxon school of the 8th to 11th centuries, and less so in other Carolingian schools of illumination, where the tendency was to foliate decorative forms. In Romanesque art these became typical, and the interlace generally much less complex. Some animal forms are also found.

Hehe.... and guess the origin of THIS:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Al-Baww%C3%A2b_001.jpg;)

[Albion]

Are you serious? The Anglo-Saxons had to be taught and converted by the Celts before they were inspired to draw any cross. EVIDENCE please!

For there are thousands of Pictish stones that were built with intricate details even before they were converted to Christianity. Show me one single example of Anglo-Saxon crosses that date before their conversion to Christianity! YOU CANT!

Duh, they were Pagans, why would they have gone to the effort of shaping a stone into the shape of a cross, a religious symbol not of their own?

Its also a shame about the artistic tradition which used to be shared between Northern England and Ireland and Scotland.
Today such artwork is seen by most people as being solely Irish because they don't know of the Anglian input on the artistic tradition.
What was quite common British art styles is mislabelled as 'Irish' or 'Irish inspired', even when found in England.

[Kadu]

I see an handful of people in this thread rejecting any Germanic heritage and yet their first language is a Germanic language, enough said....

[Trog]

Duh, they were Pagans, why would they have gone to the effort of shaping a stone into the shape of a cross, a religious symbol not of their own?

You tell me!

http://images.ancient-scotland.co.uk/pics/aberk2.jpg

[Albion]

I see an handful of people in this thread rejecting any Germanic heritage and yet their first language is a Germanic language, enough said....

There isn't really a rejection on my part, England is Germanic in culture, a culture which became imposed on the population following that of the previously imposed Celtic culture.
But in terms of origins I look back to the post LGM re-peopling of Britain as the source of my and most Brit's origins.

There's nothing bad about that. Germanic is the culture of England (although it's not clear cut), hence my meta-ethnicity which has remained static.

British natives with a blend of Celtic and Germanic culture.

[Albion]

You tell me!

http://images.ancient-scotland.co.uk/pics/aberk2.jpg

That's of no use to me without a explanation. You see, I can't date it because I'm not an archaeologist, nor do I have much interest in the so-called "Celtic crosses".
Info please!

[Osweo]

Sorcha has to prove the early date of the Pictish symbol stones.

Some she has shown have features identical with almost pan-Christian art, including the vinescroll thing. I.e. THIS:
http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/034878/034878026749lg.jpg

Carpet knotwork is different, and found on pagan materials in Northern Europe;
http://www.thinkythings.org/knotwork/doubleknot.gif

Animal style is a different thing again,
http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/art/sundbystone.jpg
... and it has links with the Scythian beast style. This is Iranic steppe nomad art.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/20Roots/ZakievGenesis/ScythianAnimalArt.gif


HERE is native Celtic art;
http://www.unc.edu/celtic/design/turoe/bwturoe.jpghttp://www.unc.edu/celtic/design/turoe/line.gif
http://users.skynet.be/tarot/celts/celt1.gif


DO YOU SEE the differences!??!!?

Do you see that the manuscript art (and to a lesser extent the Pictish stones) are a FUSION OF ALL OF THESE?!?!?!!??!

[Albion]

DO YOU SEE the differences!??!!?

Do you see that the manuscript art (and to a lesser extent the Pictish stones) are a FUSION OF ALL OF THESE?!?!?!!??!

I know this isn't addressed to me and all, but I've seen the Celtic one's at the bottom many times before.
The Celtic ones at the bottom are clearly vastly different from those above.

The late Celtic art does have a distinct look which the average person on the street would describe today as Scandinavian / Viking (yes, I know it's Pan-Germanic and from the Anglians myself).

[Trog]

That's of no use to me without a explanation. You see, I can't date it because I'm not an archaeologist, nor do I have much interest in the so-called "Celtic crosses".
Info please!

Don't mention it (http://www.ionahistory.org.uk/investigating-early-carved-stones.pdf)!

[Osweo]

You given in yet, Trog? :laugh:

[Trog]

Sorcha has to prove the early date of the Pictish symbol stones.

Do you see that the manuscript art (and to a lesser extent the Pictish stones) are a FUSION OF ALL OF THESE?!?!?!!??!

Where's the Anglo-Saxon art?

The Picitish Stones date from before the Anglo Saxons even entered England. Has it never occured to you why such stones are scarce anywhere but Scotland?

Anglo Saxon art is the mix of Mediterranean, Celtic and Germanic and Northumbian Anglo Saxons were educated and converted by Irish Monks whom they learned everything from.

See Whithorn (http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/whithorn/whithornpriory/)


The first church here (or anywhere in Scotland) was dedicated to St Martin of Tours and commonly known as the Candida Casa or "White House", traditionally thought to reflect its stone construction.

The Candida Casa was established by St Ninian, who was British in origin but had studied in Rome. Very little is really known about St Ninian. All we have is a short passage in Bede's Ecclesiastical History written some three centuries or 15 generations later. It is not even certain when St Ninian established his church: some time in the 390s seems a fair working assumption.

Under St Ninian, Whithorn developed into a cathedral church (a title probably reflecting its status rather than its size) accompanied by a monastery. It became renowned as a centre of learning, and was the origin of many of the missionaries who later converted Scotland to Christianity. On his death, St Ninian was buried in his church, and over the following centuries Whithorn became the focus for pilgrimage from across the British Isles and beyond.


In the 700s Whithorn was a Northumbrian possession, while by the 900s it had been settled by the Norse, who continued to use the area around the church as a burial ground. The Norse had been ousted by 1100 and the Bishopric of Whithorn was re-established in 1128


Lindisfarne, Northumbria are later extensions of Whithorn and Iona and are the result of Irish Monks.

[Trog]

You given in yet, Trog? :laugh:

Um, you already know the answer to that. I swear you don't really have all that much interest in this topic, you're just looking to provoke me.

Whithorn
http://www.whithornpriorymuseum.gov.uk/whithorn_museum_stones.jpg


http://www.whithornpriorymuseum.gov.uk/whithorn-museum-main.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I do feel (to some extent) Celtic or better phrased, Celt-Iberian.

[Osweo]

Where's the Anglo-Saxon art?
fuck's sake,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Sutton.Hoo.ShoulderClasp2.RobRoy.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3802313774_049dbf118f.jpg
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/birmpost/sep2009/6/2/anglo-saxon-gold-417971201.jpg

= animals, check. knotwork, check. carpetwork, check.
We are missing the Latin letters, Near Eastern vinescroll, and La Tene ornamental features. THEN we would have the Insular Style.


The Picitish Stones date from before the Anglo Saxons even entered England. Has it never occured to you why such stones are scarce anywhere but Scotland?
Duh.... Proof for the deep age, please.

Pictish stones exist in Pictland. They are not found in western Scotland, or much south of the Firth-Forth (save a few outliers). THIS tells us the following; They are not 'Ancient British'. Picts are Britons that were not Romanised. Their cousins in the south did NOT produce this sort of art before the Romans came. THEREFORE, it emerged once the south HAD been Romanised. That they don't exist in the west of Scotland means that they came into being AFTER the Irish Gaels expanded into that territory.

They date to AFTER the Roman withdrawal. c. 410 AD onwards. Now, look up the Great Barbarian Conspiracy - the Picts were acting in cahoots with the Angles in raiding Celto-Roman Britain! An ideal time to learn a few artistic techniques from their Germanic allies.


Anglo Saxon art is the mix of Mediterranean, Celtic and Germanic and Northumbian Anglo Saxons were educated and converted by Irish Monks whom they learned everything from.
AH, you ADMIT IT NOW!!! :clap:
LATER Anglo-Saxon is. Original heathen Anglo-Saxon art isn't.


See Whithorn (http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/whithorn/whithornpriory/)
There are numerous errors in that link. Whithorn has an ENGLISH name = Hwit Aern. It was taken over by English monks. Previously, it had been a centre of WELSH Christianity, but that phase in the Christianisation of Scotland was cut short by the Anglian conquest, in the 600s. Ninian's work was left for a while, until the Irish Columba's disciples took it up again later. That's why Bede calls the Picts 'apostates'.



Lindisfarne, Northumbria are later extensions of Whithorn and Iona and are the result of Irish Monks.
Lindisfarne is an extension of Iona, which is an extension of Patrick's work in Ireland, which is an extension of the Northern British Church that lingered on from Roman times. Whithorn, or 'Candida Casa' rather, is a cousin to the Irish Church, and does not constitute a link in the Lindisfarne chain. It was an aborted thing, rather.

[Osweo]

Um, you already know the answer to that. I swear you don't really have all that much interest in this topic, you're just looking to provoke me.

Whithorn
http://www.whithornpriorymuseum.gov.uk/whithorn_museum_stones.jpg


http://www.whithornpriorymuseum.gov.uk/whithorn-museum-main.jpg

I am immensely interested in Whithorn, and have stayed several weeks in the area, visiting many local sites.

If you actually did your homework, Trog, you would discover that many of those crosses are monuments to ENGLISH BISHOPS. Look at their names;

List of known Anglo-Saxon bishops of Whithorn
Tenure Incumbent Notes
731 – 735 Pehthelm Died in office.
d. 762 x 764 Frithwald
d. 776 x 777 Pehtwine
bp. 777 Æthelberht of Whithorn Was translated to the bishopric of Hexham around 789.
790 – c. 803 Beadwulf Last known Bishop of the Northumbrian era.
Heathored is described as the successor to Beadwulf by some accounts. His inclusion on the list as a Bishop of Whithorn is not credible.

FINE Germanic names... ;)

[Sahson]

I am Celti-hardly Germanic. The only Germanic parts come from my English ancestry, but even the English are mostly Celtic.

Dear me... Argyll to assume that the only germanic input is from England is quite a fallacy from what science has uncovered. Celtic influence is found in select few areas of Scotland.

There have been 3 genetic samples taken from the Argyll people in Scotland. I only know about them because to my surprise they were one of my top 3 highest matches of where I possibly come from. Orcadian being the first at 98%.

As you might realise, I'm not quite celtic, the only thing celtic about me is that i have a male Irish haplogroup; R1b M222. Other than that, on all genetic projections I am miles away from the irish, and others, In fact looking at Eurogenes, projections, and 23andme, I am the most easterly placed Brit on Apricity.

And the match of me to people of argyll is not a little but a lot. 97% of Argyll _1KG sample, and 96% from the second Argyll sample.

You might say that I have an irish haplogroup thus I am celtic. However Osweo has the same haplogroup, in fact we're distant cousins. Although if you know anything about genetics the male haplogroup is only a ounce of water in the vast ocean of genetics. Like the haplogroup represent one strand of hair in your hairstyle.


I have not been brainwashed. I like the Germanic part too, but I feel more in tune with the Celtic part. I have nothing against the Germanic peoples.

Well it's evident you have because genetics are literally screaming that people from argyll are heavily germanic, otherwise I wouldn't be as closely matched to argylls. my top 10 was this...

1. Orcadian 98.16%
2. Central European* 97.93%
3. N European 97.75%
4. Argyll_1KG 97.57%
5. Orkney_1KG 96.96%
6. Argyll 96.75%
7. German_D 93.01%
8. Mixed Germanic_D 91.45%
9. Dutch_D 90.03%
10. French 87.9%

If Argyll was truly celtic then why aren't they clustering to Celtics, like welsh and Irish instead of Germanics?

*Central European have usually British, Scandinavian, Lower Countries or German ancestry. It was a sample taken from america with primarily German ancestry.

Of course though If you like Celtic culture, then by all means embrace it, but you'll probably find in a genetic test you're not as celtic as you might think.

[Trog]

I am immensely interested in Whithorn, and have stayed several weeks in the area, visiting many local sites.

If you actually did your homework, Trog, you would discover that many of those crosses are monuments to ENGLISH BISHOPS. Look at their names;

List of known Anglo-Saxon bishops of Whithorn
Tenure Incumbent Notes
731 – 735 Pehthelm Died in office.
d. 762 x 764 Frithwald
d. 776 x 777 Pehtwine
bp. 777 Æthelberht of Whithorn Was translated to the bishopric of Hexham around 789.
790 – c. 803 Beadwulf Last known Bishop of the Northumbrian era.
Heathored is described as the successor to Beadwulf by some accounts. His inclusion on the list as a Bishop of Whithorn is not credible.

FINE Germanic names... ;)

Whithorn was going a long time before those Bishops, starting with St Ninian in the 4th century and the Latinus Stone dates from around 450AD;

http://macdonnellofleinster.org/Latinus%20Stone.jpg

it was already mentioned that Whithorn came under control from Northumbria in 7th century.

[Treffie]

This is where I see my ancestry, hence one of my former profile pics was of a stone circle.
Celts, Germanics or whatever, most Brits are aboriginal and pre-date such cultures as I believe my ancestry does too.



You really need to get yourself tested, Albion and find out the origins of your Y-DNA. The homeland of my (and Pallantides, Electronic God Man, Wilfred) male line is Doggerland.

[Sahson]

You really need to get yourself tested, Albion and find out the origins of your Y-DNA. The homeland of my (and Pallantides, Electronic God Man, Wilfred) male line is Doggerland.

And mine is Irish :D

[Peasant]

Sadly, I haven't been able to get any "current" information on the Celts. The books at my library are much too dated for my tastes (the only "good" one was from the 70s). I'm really looking forward, though, to reading the Gaelic Otherworld and The Sea Kingdoms.

So, I had a look at the Amazon reviews. Here are the positive ones...


This book explores the similarities of the Celtic peoples and especially their differences with the English. It is a book that would not be written by someone who'd lived within the heart of the Celtic Fringe but as a border Scot, Moffatt's journey of discovery is profound. The book is especially good if you have an interest and knowledge of celtic history already, as it attempts to overturn accepted Anglo-saxon history by highlighting events that have been left out of the establishment view.


This book is remarkable, it logically demonstrates how our history has been written by the people who came to rule us. The book lays an evocotive and tantalising path to find the essence of our undocumented history.

Alisdair Moffat has produced an excellent book, he breaths life into the places he talks about, and depth into the characters who were involved in the "War for Britain".

It totally enraptured me, I now have a stronger sense of who I am, and where I belong in the world.

Read it, and discover the mystery of where we came from, and why we are the way we are.

My one niggle, Cumbria did not get enough mention - it should have.

Already smells like bullshit. Lets have a look at two of the negative ones.


I would have to agree with the more negative reviewers here. While I enjoyed parts of this book, there is a lot of nonsense in it too. His observations about a Gaelic poem are completely off the wall, because he suggests that the Celtic languages are in some way inherently onomatopaeic and close to nature in some mystical way. The opposite side of this belief in the poetic mistiness of the Celtic tongues is the argument (which he also makes) that they don't handle modern vocabulary well. He seems to be suggesting that this is again a natural and intrinsic quality, not just the result of the way they have been marginalised by more powerful languages. This kind of argument can be used to damage these languages because people who have a general lack of interest in their survival can sigh and say "Well, they are really beautiful ... great for poetry, but you couldn't run an office through Irish/Gaelic/Welsh." Which of course is absolutely untrue. There is also a claim here that the word moccasin comes from the Scottish Gaelic "mo chosan", which means my feet or legs. This is clearly rubbish. Why wouldn't they call them movrogans? (Mo bhrogan, my shoes) Why would you name them after your feet, rather than your shoes? And in any case, there's already a perfectly good Amerindian etymology for this word.


I was given this book as a Christmas present, and being a frequent visitor to the Hebrides, was hoping for a factual, concise history of western Britain. Unfortunately, this was not the case. The title of the book is rather misleading as the phrase "The History Of..." implies - to me at least - a certain attempt at objectivity and the application of proper historical method. But this is not really a history book, so much as an ethnographic study of Celtic national identity, from the point of view of someone who loves all things Celtic and blames the English for their demise. I was quite amused to read, in his closing notes on page 280, that the author was not attempting to prove Celtic culture was better than English culture, as that was the overriding tone of the previous 279 pages.

Apart from that, the book is too disjointed and reads as a sequence of anecdotes. While the anecdotes are well related, interesting and often amusing, the conclusions the author arrives at are conjectural, unconvincing to say the least, and don't really push his argument forward. There's far too much personal opinion, backed up with superlatives and too much emphasis on Scottish history, especially lowland history which has little relevance to the argument. He wastes an entire chapter trying to connect Border Reiving to some sort of residual Celtic horse-culture, which is far from convincing. In this chapter, as with others, he makes little attempt to evaluate alternative hypotheses, other than with throw-away phrases like `it is far more likely...'.

I don't want to appear too critical of this book, as it was a good read in large parts, and formed a fascinating insight into Celtic mindset, if not the culture, but as a body of work I wasn't really convinced. I can imagine this book would appeal to people who are looking to have existing opinions reinforced.

:p

So unless you want to buy it for reasons highlighted in that last bit of bold I have two pieces of advice:

Save your money and don't buy it.
Save your time and don't read it.

[Treffie]

because he suggests that the Celtic languages are in some way inherently onomatopaeic and close to nature in some mystical way.

Fuck, I wish that was true - I studied Welsh literature at school and trying to compose cynghanedd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynghanedd) was an almost impossible task. What's been written here is just Romantic guff in dreamland. :(

[Argyll]

So, I had a look at the Amazon reviews. Here are the positive ones...





Already smells like bullshit. Lets have a look at two of the negative ones.





:p

So unless you want to buy it for reasons highlighted in that last bit of bold I have two pieces of advice:

Save your money and don't buy it.
Save your time and don't read it.

Hmm, I guess I should have read the more negative reviews then! :D Thanks for the heads up. :)

[Argyll]

Duh, they were Pagans, why would they have gone to the effort of shaping a stone into the shape of a cross, a religious symbol not of their own?

Its also a shame about the artistic tradition which used to be shared between Northern England and Ireland and Scotland.
Today such artwork is seen by most people as being solely Irish because they don't know of the Anglian input on the artistic tradition.
What was quite common British art styles is mislabelled as 'Irish' or 'Irish inspired', even when found in England.

The Cross, especially the Celtic cross, was never Christian before christianity came to the Celtic peoples. It was a symbol that united the earth with the otherworld/godly realms.

[Argyll]

Dear me... Argyll to assume that the only germanic input is from England is quite a fallacy from what science has uncovered. Celtic influence is found in select few areas of Scotland.

There have been 3 genetic samples taken from the Argyll people in Scotland. I only know about them because to my surprise they were one of my top 3 highest matches of where I possibly come from. Orcadian being the first at 98%.

As you might realise, I'm not quite celtic, the only thing celtic about me is that i have a male Irish haplogroup; R1b M222. Other than that, on all genetic projections I am miles away from the irish, and others, In fact looking at Eurogenes, projections, and 23andme, I am the most easterly placed Brit on Apricity.

And the match of me to people of argyll is not a little but a lot. 97% of Argyll _1KG sample, and 96% from the second Argyll sample.

You might say that I have an irish haplogroup thus I am celtic. However Osweo has the same haplogroup, in fact we're distant cousins. Although if you know anything about genetics the male haplogroup is only a ounce of water in the vast ocean of genetics. Like the haplogroup represent one strand of hair in your hairstyle.



Well it's evident you have because genetics are literally screaming that people from argyll are heavily germanic, otherwise I wouldn't be as closely matched to argylls. my top 10 was this...

1. Orcadian 98.16%
2. Central European* 97.93%
3. N European 97.75%
4. Argyll_1KG 97.57%
5. Orkney_1KG 96.96%
6. Argyll 96.75%
7. German_D 93.01%
8. Mixed Germanic_D 91.45%
9. Dutch_D 90.03%
10. French 87.9%

If Argyll was truly celtic then why aren't they clustering to Celtics, like welsh and Irish instead of Germanics?

*Central European have usually British, Scandinavian, Lower Countries or German ancestry. It was a sample taken from america with primarily German ancestry.

Of course though If you like Celtic culture, then by all means embrace it, but you'll probably find in a genetic test you're not as celtic as you might think.

I never said that my ancestors were from Argyll, but seriously? There was hardly any Germanic influence to Argyll. I just chose the name Argyll because I like it. MY ancestors are from the Highlands in Scotland, central and western Ireland, probably the poorer parts of England and maybe some Welsh there too (there's a lot of people in eastern Kentucky with Welsh last names, especially Owens).

[Sahson]

I never said that my ancestors were from Argyll, but seriously? There was hardly any Germanic influence to Argyll. I just chose the name Argyll because I like it. MY ancestors are from the Highlands in Scotland, central and western Ireland, probably the poorer parts of England and maybe some Welsh there too (there's a lot of people in eastern Kentucky with Welsh last names, especially Owens).

Why do they cluster closest to Germanics than Irish, Welsh, et al? if they haven't had any Germanic influence, they should be clustering to the irish, and Welsh.

[Argyll]

Why do they cluster closest to Germanics than Irish, Welsh, et al? if they haven't had any Germanic influence, they should be clustering to the irish, and Welsh.

what are you talking about clustering?

[Boudica]

The Cross, especially the Celtic cross, was never Christian before christianity came to the Celtic peoples. It was a symbol that united the earth with the otherworld/godly realms.

I don't think so.. All the historical examples of actual "Celtic Crosses" were indisputably made under Christian circumstances. The Aberlemno Stone, the great High Crosses at Clonmacnoise, Monasterboise, Kells, Iona and many other monastic sites are all clearly made in Christian times, under Christian patronage.. There is an Irish legend that tells about Saint Patrick creating the first Celtic cross by drawing a circle over a Latin cross to represent the Pagan moon goddess symbol, doing this to help them convert to Christianity.. HOWEVER, the cross has been since pre christian times by non christian cultures (including the pagans).. There is a possibility that the Celtic cross in particular may have been used for Paganism, but I think that it was inspired by Christianity personally..

[Boudica]

what are you talking about clustering?

He means "clustering" as in they cluster with the germanics DNA wise, therefor have germanic influences..

[Argyll]

I don't think so.. All the historical examples of actual "Celtic Crosses" were indisputably made under Christian circumstances. The Aberlemno Stone, the great High Crosses at Clonmacnoise, Monasterboise, Kells, Iona and many other monastic sites are all clearly made in Christian times, under Christian patronage.. There is an Irish legend that tells about Saint Patrick creating the first Celtic cross by drawing a circle over a Latin cross to represent the Pagan moon goddess symbol, doing this to help them convert to Christianity.. HOWEVER, the cross has been since pre christian times by non christian cultures (including the pagans).. There is a possibility that the Celtic cross in particular may have been used for Paganism, but I think that it was inspired by Christianity personally..

Well, the Celtic cross as we know it today, wasn't really the same as the ancient Celtic one. The celtic one was probably just a cross with a circle around the crossing parts. As we know, some symbols change and evolve over time.

[Boudica]

Well, the Celtic cross as we know it today, wasn't really the same as the ancient Celtic one. The celtic one was probably just a cross with a circle around the crossing parts. As we know, some symbols change and evolve over time.

:confused:

Yeah.. It pretty much is unless other people decide to change minor things when it comes to it's design...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/sysm/scots/images/design/aberlemno2.jpg
I don't get what you mean by "the Celtic one"..? Were the people who you are claiming to have used the Celtic cross first not in fact, Celtic??.. Define ancient in your meanings?..

[Argyll]

:confused:

Yeah.. It pretty much is unless other people decide to change minor things when it comes to it's design...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/sysm/scots/images/design/aberlemno2.jpg
I don't get what you mean "the Celtic one"..? Were the people who you are claiming to have used the Celtic cross not in fact, Celtic??.. Define ancient in your meanings?..

The Celtic cross, that is. They probably had a different one, just not as elaborate as the one used today.

[Sahson]

what are you talking about clustering?

I won't make any exemptions for you from the English language, unless you speak english as a second language, even then I speak 4 languages, so what's you're excuse?

Clustering is the gerund of the intransitive verb 'to Cluster' - be or come into a cluster or close group; congregate.

Statistics (of data points) have similar numerical values : students tended to have scores clustering around 70 percent.

Synonyms - congregation, gather, collect, group, assemble; huddle, crowd, flock.

[Boudica]

The Celtic cross, that is. They probably had a different one, just not as elaborate as the one used today.

"They" had a different one that wasn't as elaborate as the one used today? Well, the celtic cross which is used today is pretty much identical to the ones found on the very old stones, one of which i have provided a picture of above.. So... If these people who you refer to as "they" had a cross, it wasn't what is known to be the Celtic cross, and I'd be interested in seeing some artwork of this "less elaborate" cross from these very ancient times, can you provide them for me? :D

[Graham]

Also, the Book of Kells and Pictish stones feature kelpies and eich uisges(water horses) and even water bulls and these creatures are characteristic of Scottish folklore. You also claim that all the animals were of the North Sea, again I ask ARE YOU SERIOUS? There's even Pictish stones showing Picts running away from animals and a lot of mythical creatures as well!

You seen what they're building off the motorway (M9) in Falkirk. 30 meter high Kelpies! :).

Going along the canal, I think it'll look good.

http://www.urbanrealm.com/images/news/news_2682.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eA1QBBwQbNI/SuBd7Nrgt3I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/tn2BG0DmbcY/s320/Kelpie01.jpg

[Allenson]

Take a gander at the Book of Kells. Written and formed in Ireland, wayyyy before any Germanic folk could get their hands on it.

It's thought that the Book of Kells was actually produced on Iona and later brought to the Abbey of Kells in Ireland. The reasoning for this is that this locale is in the interior of Ireland and away from navigable rivers and thus less likely to be raided by Vikings.

Certainly of the Insular style--a nice blending of Celt and Anglo-Saxon designs, ahem. Easy for me to say, being roughly 50/50. ;)

[Osweo]

There have been 3 genetic samples taken from the Argyll people in Scotland. I only know about them because to my surprise they were one of my top 3 highest matches of where I possibly come from. Orcadian being the first at 98%.
Argyle? Curious. :chin:

Of course, the peninsula of Argyle was the beachhead of the Irish penetration of Northern Britain, and its name translates as 'Eastern Gaels'. However, that was back in the Fifth Century, and the Ninth Century saw all bits of mainland Scotland that 'stick out' into the Western Ocean become Norse territory...

It's still a Germano-Celtic land, tho. Gaelic language did win out, until recent times.


So, I had a look at the Amazon reviews. Here are the positive ones...
Already smells like bullshit. Lets have a look at two of the negative ones.


He wastes an entire chapter trying to connect Border Reiving to some sort of residual Celtic horse-culture, which is far from convincing.

God, I remember that bit. :( It FELT like far more than a chapter. Absolutely excruciating drivel..... :rolleyes:


I never said that my ancestors were from Argyll, but seriously? There was hardly any Germanic influence to Argyll. I just chose the name Argyll because I like it. MY ancestors are from the Highlands in Scotland,
Um... Argyle is IN the Highlands... :suomut: It was the heartland of Gaelic Scotland before the Norsemen came. Dunadd is there, and the megalithic metropolis of Kilmartin. Wonderful place...

Some Germanic placenames there; Torrisdale, Muasdale, and - you'll like this one - Thundergay. :D

probably the poorer parts of England
Ah, so you have to spit on that part of your heritage, then... ;)

You seen what they're building off the motorway (M9) in Falkirk. 30 meter high Kelpies! :).

Going along the canal, I think it'll look good.

http://www.urbanrealm.com/images/news/news_2682.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eA1QBBwQbNI/SuBd7Nrgt3I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/tn2BG0DmbcY/s320/Kelpie01.jpg

Superb! :clap:

[Trog]

You seen what they're building off the motorway (M9) in Falkirk. 30 meter high Kelpies! :).

Going along the canal, I think it'll look good.

http://www.urbanrealm.com/images/news/news_2682.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eA1QBBwQbNI/SuBd7Nrgt3I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/tn2BG0DmbcY/s320/Kelpie01.jpg

That's so scary, imagine how that will look in the shadows of a dark night, especially the M9.

I remember freaking out when I first came across the Crossraguel Abbey when I was driving to catch the early ferry to Ireland at Christmas time. I think the ferry was something like 4.30 am crossing. I never knew these ruins existed, all I recall was how spooky it looked when these remains emerged at the side of the road in the wee sma' hours. That road through Maybole and onto Stranraer is scary for many reasons, it's Tam o Shanta territory after all.But just imagine seeing this without expecting it:

http://www.maybole.org/photogallery/buildings/crossraguel.jpg

There's something very eerie about Crossraguel.

[Sahson]

Argyle? Curious. :chin:

Of course, the peninsula of Argyle was the beachhead of the Irish penetration of Northern Britain, and its name translates as 'Eastern Gaels'. However, that was back in the Fifth Century, and the Ninth Century saw all bits of mainland Scotland that 'stick out' into the Western Ocean become Norse territory...

It's still a Germano-Celtic land, tho. Gaelic language did win out, until recent times.

Gall-Ghàidheal? Both the orkneys and Argyll have norse input, so does the danelaw. all Eurogenes results had me cluster to danes, and then norwegians. Perhaps Argyll, and the orkneys have a native input, and then norse I take it?

However dodecad states I have a rather large eastern european input, which the average is closest too the orkenys in the British isles. perhaps Argyll is similar, because it's relatively close, but my Eastern european component is close to 11% and well if you look here, where in the british isles do you find an average above 10%?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12050&d=1309955735

Yep in the orkneys. Perhaps argyll is the same or I wouldn't cluster up to them. I'll have a look on oracle.

[Argyll]

Argyle? Curious. :chin:

Of course, the peninsula of Argyle was the beachhead of the Irish penetration of Northern Britain, and its name translates as 'Eastern Gaels'. However, that was back in the Fifth Century, and the Ninth Century saw all bits of mainland Scotland that 'stick out' into the Western Ocean become Norse territory...

It's still a Germano-Celtic land, tho. Gaelic language did win out, until recent times.


God, I remember that bit. :( It FELT like far more than a chapter. Absolutely excruciating drivel..... :rolleyes:


Um... Argyle is IN the Highlands... :suomut: It was the heartland of Gaelic Scotland before the Norsemen came. Dunadd is there, and the megalithic metropolis of Kilmartin. Wonderful place...

Some Germanic placenames there; Torrisdale, Muasdale, and - you'll like this one - Thundergay. :D

Yes, I know it's part of the Highlands, I guess I should have specified more into the western AND western parts. Just because the vikings raided and made make shift settlements there, doesn't mean they raped every Celtic woman......



Ah, so you have to spit on that part of your heritage, then... ;)


Superb! :clap:

No, I like my English heritage, it means more Celtic for me, but also Germanic. I've actually heard that in recent studies, English are far more Celtic than Germanic. The reason I said poor is because, in the appalachains, we were ALL pretty poor there :D A common phrase from where I'm from, eastern Kentucky, is (about the Great Depression) "We were so poor that we didn't even know there was a depression."

[Pallantides]

Maybe one or two Celtic whore ancestors.:D

[Treffie]

No, I like my English heritage, it means more Celtic for me, but also Germanic. I've actually heard that in recent studies, English are far more Celtic than Germanic.

The English have lost their Celticness a long time ago; they no longer use a Celtic language. Ancestrally though, I suspect that between 25-50% have some sort of ancient Celtic background.

[Boudica]

A bit over half :). Also I do understand the difference between Celtic and Germanic/Celto-Germanic ancestry.. I realize that many areas which Celts are native to have had quite the amount of Germanic influence due to their expanding, etc through out history, however it seems as if many people are unaware of this or choose to ignore it altogether. My Germanic ancestry is second most in amount to my Celtic ancestry, and while I enjoy having my Celtic ancestry and relate to it the most, I still very much appreciate my Germanic ancestry as well.

I have recently got into doing celtic styled art, and I have began learning celtic knotting :D it's a lot of fun :D
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292040_2458888838532_1441496918_32851892_634387317 _n.jpg

[Osweo]

The English have lost their Celticness a long time ago; they no longer use a Celtic language. Ancestrally though, I suspect that between 25-50% have some sort of ancient Celtic background.

How can you come up with such a figure? :p

The oldest Germanicised parts of Britain have been so for 1500 years. Even if a particular family managed to keep pure from native blood, the passage of time will have made mixing inevitable, even if they didn't want to, as nobody would remember who was who after a few centuries. In the last millenium, enough time has passed to ensure that British and Germanic blood has trickled into every single little nook of the country.

THEREFORE, every Englishman has 'some sort of ancient Celtic background', just as each one has Germanic blood by now too.

Proportions can only be considered for their Germanic and Celtic ancestry at a given cross section of their pedigree, a given time in the past.

[Argyll]

It's thought that the Book of Kells was actually produced on Iona and later brought to the Abbey of Kells in Ireland. The reasoning for this is that this locale is in the interior of Ireland and away from navigable rivers and thus less likely to be raided by Vikings.

Certainly of the Insular style--a nice blending of Celt and Anglo-Saxon designs, ahem. Easy for me to say, being roughly 50/50. ;)

Well, yeah. Iona WAS an Irish missionary.

[mdou3]

Can someone post a picture of what they think would be a typical looking Celt?

[Argyll]

Can someone post a picture of what they think would be a typical looking Celt?

Princess Diana is a very Celtic woman. Sean Lamont looks very Celtic too. Just type in Scottish or Irish and you'll probably find very Celtic looking people, as both are predominantly Celtic.

[Peasant]

Can someone post a picture of what they think would be a typical looking Celt?

http://images.hellokids.com/_uploads/_tiny_galerie/20090310/leprechaun-irish-source_ser.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/TheUsualIrishWayofDoingThings.jpg

[Sahson]

Princess Diana is a very Celtic woman. Sean Lamont looks very Celtic too. Just type in Scottish or Irish and you'll probably find very Celtic looking people, as both are predominantly Celtic.

LMAO omg, my insides are hurting. Princess Diana is a good example of the phenotype of Anglo-saxon. :D You should do stand-up argyll people could then laugh at you.

[Boudica]

Princess Diana is a very Celtic woman. Sean Lamont looks very Celtic too. Just type in Scottish or Irish and you'll probably find very Celtic looking people, as both are predominantly Celtic.

Yeah, Argyll.. Princess Diana looks Anglo Saxon as Sahson said.. IMO there is not really a specific look for celts.. They have a variety of looks..

[Anthropologique]

Can someone post a picture of what they think would be a typical looking Celt?

There is no such thing as a typical looking Celt.

[Treffie]

How can you come up with such a figure? :p



My guess was purely unacademic; I don't think that anyone can put a precise figure on it.

Btw, I knew you would grumble :D

[Argyll]

Yeah, Argyll.. Princess Diana looks Anglo Saxon as Sahson said.. IMO there is not really a specific look for celts.. They have a variety of looks..

Meh, oh well. I haven't really compared her to other Celts I know. I was just echoing what somebody else said.

[Tarja]

http://www.urbanrealm.com/images/news/news_2682.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eA1QBBwQbNI/SuBd7Nrgt3I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/tn2BG0DmbcY/s320/Kelpie01.jpg







Is this by the same people that did the mermaid on the motorway to Glasgow?


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15907&stc=1&d=1317521523

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15908&stc=1&d=1317521523

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15909&stc=1&d=1317521523



It glows all different colours at night.
I was freaked out by it at first, staring at it in the same way I would stare at a spider, terrified by it but must keep an eye on it - just incase. ;) I've warmed to it now though and really enjoy looking at it. It could be another folklore reference, I don't know.

[Graham]

Yeah it is, Andy Scott.

http://thumbs.imagekind.com/member/05c80054-20fd-467b-8e11-ea410222dbce/uploadedartwork/650X650/bf4be4e1-2c09-4298-8863-fac1d3a77079.jpg

[Argyll]

Is this by the same people that did the mermaid on the motorway to Glasgow?


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15907&stc=1&d=1317521523

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15908&stc=1&d=1317521523

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15909&stc=1&d=1317521523



It glows all different colours at night.
I was freaked out by it at first, staring at it in the same way I would stare at a spider, terrified by it but must keep an eye on it - just incase. ;) I've warmed to it now though and really enjoy looking at it. It could be another folklore reference, I don't know.

She's beautiful! I wish she just looked a little less abstract though :)

[Albion]

You really need to get yourself tested, Albion and find out the origins of your Y-DNA. The homeland of my (and Pallantides, Electronic God Man, Wilfred) male line is Doggerland.

I know, I suspect mine is probably of a similar source.

[Boudica]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15909&stc=1&d=1317521523
It glows all different colours at night.
I was freaked out by it at first, staring at it in the same way I would stare at a spider, terrified by it but must keep an eye on it - just incase. ;) I've warmed to it now though and really enjoy looking at it. It could be another folklore reference, I don't know.

Omg, that is incredible. Ah, I can't imagine how beautiful it must be when it gleams and sparkles in the sun, amazing!

[Argyll]

Omg, that is incredible. Ah, I can't imagine how beautiful it must be when it gleams and sparkles in the sun, amazing!

I'm just curious as to why she has four arms :D But I can't wait till I move to Inverness and "go home".

[Tarja]

I'm just curious as to why she has four arms :D But I can't wait till I move to Inverness and "go home".

:D

Why Inverness?

[Argyll]

:D

Why Inverness?

It's my most favourite city in the world! :love: It's so beautiful, it's close to Loch Ness :D, and has a good strong Celtic culture thriving there. My best friend Brighid, who happens to ACTUALLY be a pure Celt (she's been tested) lives near there.

[Anthropologique]

Quite impressive.

[Osweo]

to ACTUALLY be a pure Celt (she's been tested)

:lol00002: or :banging head ???

I can't make my mind up.

[Argyll]

:lol00002: or :banging head ???

I can't make my mind up.

She is. I really don't care if you think it's stupid.

[Hussar]

How "celtic" am i ? Uh.....depending on the plot and methodology, from 35 to 65% ;)

[Argyll]

Quite impressive.

Yeah, it is. She's really melancholy about it a lot, though. She keeps on lamenting that she's one of the last of a dying race.

[Treffie]

Yeah, it is. She's really melancholy about it a lot, though. She keeps on lamenting that she's one of the last of a dying race.

Where was she born and bred?

[Argyll]

Where was she born and bred?

Strait out of the Highlands. It's somewhere near Inverness, I can't remember it's name though :(

[Albion]

How Celtic are you?

Basically most of Western and Central Europe could call themselves Celtic if they base it on ancient history, it looses it's appeal when it becomes synonymous with 'Generic European'.

Ireland to Turkey, Scotland to Portugal, it's quite a large area.

[Hussar]

How Celtic are you?
Ireland to Turkey, Scotland to Portugal, it's quite a large area.


Well, no.

This crap of "from Ireland to Turkey" should stop. A thing is the sporadical presence of Celts on a given territory ; another one is a process ofdemographic colonization.

These days (as never happened even in the recent past), the personal genomics gives us the possibility to know with reasonable approximation our biological roots, so , at a reasonable extent, we can know (%) how celtic are we.
If we define "celtic" as populations with high amonut of a determinate component (peaks in Ireland Cornwall, etc.) then TURKEY isn't celtic at all.

[Boudica]

I'm just curious as to why she has four arms :D But I can't wait till I move to Inverness and "go home".

It's a form of art. How come Inverness is your home? I thought that you said you didn't know where in Scotland your ancestors were from and then later after said that they were from Argyll (your name). I've never heard you mention anything about Inverness until I told you that I was going there in a week in the chat box not too long ago :). Did my telling you this help you discover your true home and ancestral origins? Hope so :)

I see that you are also not "pure celtic" any longer and you have made the discovery of being "very slight germanic" as well :D.

[Albion]

Well, no.

Yes.


This crap of "from Ireland to Turkey" should stop. A thing is the sporadical presence of Celts on a given territory ; another one is a process ofdemographic colonization.

These days (as never happened even in the recent past), the personal genomics gives us the possibility to know with reasonable approximation our biological roots, so , at a reasonable extent, we can know (%) how celtic are we.

And most people use the very daft approach of equating R1b with Celts when R1b is common as muck across a huge area.
The subclades don't come into it for most people, but on saying that it is extremely doubtful that ancient Celts would have just belonged to a few types, rather many subclades of various haplogroups.

So what exactly is this "Celtic gene" you are hinting at? The one which enables us to see the difference between say the Irish and the Normans?


If we define "celtic" as populations with high amonut of a determinate component (peaks in Ireland Cornwall, etc.) then TURKEY isn't celtic at all.

Celtic can't be based on genetics which is the point I was hinting at, it's culture-only.
Galatia was a Celtic region... once. Some claim they spoke Celtic until the 1500s, a similar time to when Scotland reached it's peak with the annexing of the Northern Isles.

No part of Turkey is Celtic, but if we base being Celtic on Celts having lived in a place in the past as many people appear to be doing, then we find it becomes quite ridiculous.

[Albion]

'How Celtic are you?' is like asking a chicken if it's a duck. It can't tell you and wouldn't know anyway.

That best describes many people who describe themselves as Celtic, Germanic or whatever.

[Argyll]

It's a form of art. How come Inverness is your home? I thought that you said you didn't know where in Scotland your ancestors were from and then later after said that they were from Argyll (your name). I've never heard you mention anything about Inverness until I told you that I was going there in a week in the chat box not too long ago :). Did my telling you this help you discover your true home and ancestral origins? Hope so :)

I see that you are also not "pure celtic" any longer and you have made the discovery of being "very slight germanic" as well :D.

I DO know that my ancestors came from the Highlands. But I have felt the strongest call to Inverness for the longest time. I know it sounds stupid, but it feels as though if I were to go there and stay, I would feel exactly at home.

[Albion]

I DO know that my ancestors came from the Highlands. But I have felt the strongest call to Inverness for the longest time. I know it sounds stupid, but it feels as though if I were to go there and stay, I would feel exactly at home.

Go there, stay for a week and you'll probably find that's in your imagination and you'd miss home.

[Argyll]

Go there, stay for a week and you'll probably find that's in your imagination and you'd miss home.

There is no way I could miss America.

[Tarja]

If I were to advise tourists on visiting Scotland I'd say don't spend your entire time in the Highlands. There isn't much there. By all means go there and see the landscape, but don't bypass Edinburgh - it's beautiful, great atmosphere, lots to see and do. I was in Inverness the other month, I used to go there when I was little and it was nice to see it again, but everything up North is in the middle of nowhere! Peaceful, but gets lonely/boring quickly.

[AussieScott]

If I were to advise tourists on visiting Scotland I'd say don't spend your entire time in the Highlands. There isn't much there. By all means go there and see the landscape, but don't bypass Edinburgh - it's beautiful, great atmosphere, lots to see and do. I was in Inverness the other month, I used to go there when I was little and it was nice to see it again, but everything up North is in the middle of nowhere! Peaceful, but gets lonely/boring quickly.

The highlands sound the place for me I like the rural fringe places, very tight communities. The farming property is cheap out that way to. Always wanted to check out Rosslyn.

The quiet can be very loud sometimes. :)

[Allenson]

If I were to advise tourists on visiting Scotland I'd say don't spend your entire time in the Highlands. There isn't much there. By all means go there and see the landscape, but don't bypass Edinburgh - it's beautiful, great atmosphere, lots to see and do. I was in Inverness the other month, I used to go there when I was little and it was nice to see it again, but everything up North is in the middle of nowhere! Peaceful, but gets lonely/boring quickly.

I preferred it out in the Highlands and islands, personally--but the cities were nice too, of course. I was able to get a good dose of both quiet seclusion out yonder and culture/nightlife in the cities.

As I've said before, I grew up/live deep in the coutryside here, so that sort of setting is second nature to me. The Middle of Nowhere is just fine. I was there on a bit of a spiritual quest and I found the most rewarding locales (that I visited anyway) were Trotternish on Skye, Glen Etive and the moors around the little village in Perthshire that my paternal line came from.

I didn't make it to Inverness, although I considered it. I got hung up longer than I should have in Fort William waiting for Ben Nevis to clear off (never did) and then once I got out to Skye, I found it hard to leave. I also spent more time in Glasgow that I thought I would have. A woman can do that to a fellow. ;)

[Argyll]

I preferred it out in the Highlands and islands, personally--but the cities were nice too, of course. I was able to get a good dose of both quiet seclusion out yonder and culture/nightlife in the cities.

As I've said before, I grew up/live deep in the coutryside here, so that sort of setting is second nature to me. The Middle of Nowhere is just fine. I was there on a bit of a spiritual quest and I found the most rewarding locales (that I visited anyway) were Trotternish on Skye, Glen Etive and the moors around the little village in Perthshire that my paternal line came from.

I didn't make it to Inverness, although I considered it. I got hung up longer than I should have in Fort William waiting for Ben Nevis to clear off (never did) and then once I got out to Skye, I found it hard to leave. I also spent more time in Glasgow that I thought I would have. A woman can do that to a fellow. ;)

I just can't get over the beauty and Celtic culture of Scotland. But I'm more of a ruralish person, because I love nature so much. I don't ever want to live in a huge city, they're not my kind of thing and they aren't much close to nature, but Scotland's cities are THAT huge, from what I've been told and seen. The Highlands are my place, though, because that's what calls to me the most.

[Tarja]

Our cities aren't huge, I don't think. Anyway yeah most of Scotland is countryside, the Highlands are well worth a look, especially if you can get a car. Driving through the mountains and forests. :)

[Argyll]

Our cities aren't huge, I don't think. Anyway yeah most of Scotland is countryside, the Highlands are well worth a look, especially if you can get a car. Driving through the mountains and forests. :)

I'm a big mountains and forest person! :D And I love cooler/colder weather. Scottish acents are soo sexy too.

[Albion]

Our cities aren't huge, I don't think. Anyway yeah most of Scotland is countryside, the Highlands are well worth a look, especially if you can get a car. Driving through the mountains and forests. :)

Lol, I remember someone saying what's considered a medium town in Scotland would be a large village in England. :D Some would say that's good thing.


I'm a big mountains and forest person!

Forests are nice so long as they're not carr, scrub or some ugly foreign conifer plantation (which many in Scotland are).
Scotland's native woodlands are nice, the Scots Pine forests and the temperate rainforests on the west coast (guess why they're called that :D)

Mountains are good, I can't stand lowlands which is what the Southern / Midland two thirds of England is.
I like Moorland and rocky outcrops, crags and all that. Dark Peak is my country.

The vast seas of rough, featureless grass though which cover large areas of Wales ("the desert of Wales") and some areas of Scotland and England are very boring though. They're high up but just very dull, you can see for miles, it's like a steppe or prairie, a wet one.

[Sahson]

Our cities aren't huge, I don't think. Anyway yeah most of Scotland is countryside, the Highlands are well worth a look, especially if you can get a car. Driving through the mountains and forests. :)

I suppose this is my issue, I get bored out of my head at times living in a settlement no bigger than a 1 million people. I find Perth(australia) quiet and boring, and that's 2 million. Sheffield wasn't lively enough for me either.

I guess I lived in KL(7 million) for too long :P

[Albion]

I suppose this is my issue, I get bored out of my head at times living in a settlement no bigger than a 1 million people. I find Perth(australia) quiet and boring, and that's 2 million. Sheffield wasn't lively enough for me either.

I guess I lived in KL(7 million) for too long :P

Wow, that is really weird. I couldn't stand it in a city of a few thousand people, I want to live in a village but at the moment I'm stuck in the suburbs of a small town. I guess it's close enough for now.