Serb-Hungarian liaison. Impossible?

[Baluarte]

Serbia's current position (the same they've had since the end of the Cold War) places them against Atlanticism, and in a natural alliance with the sparse bloc that we could broadly call "the Orthodox continuum", that is, the countries of Eastern Europe that have a systemic calling and alignment that puts them close to the Russian Federation. For this reason they keep close ties with Moscow, but also with FYROM, Greece and arguably Montenegro.

The Balkan Wars of the 1990s were the first context where violation of a state sovereignty, and the inviolability of territorial integrality were breached by the high club of NATO, under the same premises that they defended later in the Middle East: Humanitarism and globalism.
That places Serbia as a defender of the traditional international public law, against the neocolonial position of reckless border reshaping that the US and its allies have spoused.


Post Communist Hungary, is a State that unlike all of its partners in the EU seems to be interested in keeping its independence, and refuses to accept the postmodern values and codes of liberal-libertarianism, "Western" loyalty and collaboration with the leading tandem: Atlanto-Zionism

Hungary is not the target of NATO today, its borders are not bothersome for anyone, its industry and agriculture ensures they can't be fully authonomous, and on paper they belong both to the EU/NATO double structure:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MbcHDpuPt94/Tr09E5OZpyI/AAAAAAAAAJI/Z8z-3kl6KjQ/s1600/EU+and+NATO.png


Yet, the current Hungarian Fidesz government, and the more radical elements of Jobbik seem to be slowly but surely heading in the opposite direction of the eurocrats in Brussels.
Opening relations with China and Russia (most hated countries by the Atlanticist system), refusing to pander to Zionists, timidly considering the idea of creating closer bonds with Iran, all while establishing an internal legislation that defends tradition against the antinational directives of the EU, are moves that will eventually: A) Force the Western system to crush the rebellious country and bring it back to the fold, or B) Forcing Hungary out of it and closer to the Eurasiatic position led by Russia and China.



With that outlook, it's worth asking: Will Belgrade and Budapest continue their rivalry?
None seem to really benefit from it really.


By countering Serbia, Hungary fails to gain the trust of the Russian, FYROMian and Greek anti-Atlanticist sectors. It adds another enemy to the already long list of both countries, and pushes Budapest back towards NATO/EU (German-Croat subfaction).

By opposing Hungary, Serbia locks itself even more in the Balkans.
After losing the ports in the Adriatic due to secession that both Djukanovic and the West wanted, being weakaned because of the actions of the American-Albanian presence (which risks to also severe FYROM and cut the corridor that links Athens to Belgrade), and being subject to literal blackmail from Brussels; it'd seem logical for Belgrade to try to befriend its northern neighbour.

Hungary has a border with Ukraine (increasingly controlled by pro-Russian elements since the arrival of Yanukovich to power) and is right in the middle of different countries that seek the aid of the Kremlin more and more.


What can Serbia offer Hungary?

Serbia has established an authonomous legal framework for Vojvodina, where Hungarian minorities are allowed to use their language for education, administration and public matters, and the creation of newspapers and radio chains.

Serbia could engage Romania (a country that has a Hungarian population 3 times bigger), and propose the establishment of similar measures in all the regions where the Hungarians are a majority. Considering the stubborn attitude that Bucharest has shown regarding this issue, having the help of Serbs could ease the recognition and legitimacy of the Transylvanian Hungarians, given the cordial relations between Serbia and Romania.

Serbia could also allow Hungary the possibility to develop more its economy, by providing it a market in Southeastern Europe.
FYROM, Greece and Serbia itself are countries that need investment outside from the money of the European Union, and if Hungary were to approach more amically, it would give them the possibility to further expand its commercial operations (which are clearly a main goal of Orban's government, as evidenced by his desire to explore markets in Ukraine and Moldova).



To make it short: Two small neighbouring countries that are blackmailed and spited by the Western bloc, who seek to approach Russia for help (not submission, help) and with similar problems related to isolation.

Am I the only one to see the folly of keeping such enmity?

[Szegedist]

Hungary is not the target of NATO today, its borders are not bothersome for anyone,
The borders are bothersome for us to say the least.


refusing to pander to Zionists,
Here I disagree, the Fidesz goverment can in no way be called anti-Zionist. Only less Zionist friendly than some of the EU counterparts.


pushes Budapest back towards NATO/EU (German-Croat subfaction).
Why would we rather side with Serbs over Croats+Germans?


Serbia has established an authonomous legal framework for Vojvodina, where Hungarian minorities are allowed to use their language for education, administration and public matters, and the creation of newspapers and radio chains.
Anything less than creating a Hungarian Autonomous zone in North Vojvodina (territorial autonomy) will not suffice for the long term. The region is being slowly Serbified by Belgrade.



Serbia could engage Romania (a country that has a Hungarian population 3 times bigger), and propose the establishment of similar measures in all the regions where the Hungarians are a majority. Considering the stubborn attitude that Bucharest has shown regarding this issue, having the help of Serbs could ease the recognition and legitimacy of the Transylvanian Hungarians, given the cordial relations between Serbia and Romania.
Not going to happen.



By countering Serbia, Hungary fails to gain the trust of the Russian, FYROMian and Greek anti-Atlanticist sectors..
We could not care less about Greeks, FYROMians. Only Russians out of this group. The rest are pariah states on the verge of crumbling, and FYROM shouldn't even exist in the first place.


Two small neighbouring countries that are blackmailed and spited by the Western bloc, who seek to approach Russia for help (not submission, help) and with similar problems related to isolation.
You forget one thing, that Serbia has profited nicely from the Western organised destruction of Hungary. And despite their "anti-Atlanto-Zionist" attitude as you put it they have no problems with keeping their gifts. The only reason Serbia is anti-Atlanto-zionist is because they are butthurt over their American and British allies ditching them.

[Baluarte]

So what do you suggest?

Anti-Serb attitude in Hungary + Anti-Hungarian attitude in Serbia?

That is bound to be beneficial for everyone. I'm sure the US/EU will like it.

[Szegedist]

So what do you suggest?

Anti-Serb attitude in Hungary + Anti-Hungarian attitude in Serbia?

That is bound to be beneficial for everyone. I'm sure the US/EU will like it.

Serbs can approach us and correct their errors, otherwise nothing.

Baluarte, you dont understand, that even if we sign a "Treaty of Eternal Hungarian-Serbian brotherhood" we will still be suspicious of them, and they of us.


Pál Teleki (bit of a naive guy) signed a Treaty of Eternal Friendship with Yugoslavia in 1940, and you know how that went.

Some things are simply not meant to be.

[Baluarte]

Friendship is not a requirement. Having a dose of suspicion is always good.

The Americans and Brits have no love for the Albanians, yet that is not a problem when it comes to working together in the Balkans.

Hungary wasn't precisely the best/natural friend of Germany during WWII, yet they sided with them because it was the best thing they could do.

[Lena]

http://www.puma.vojvodina.gov.rs/images/aktivnosti/billb.jpg

[Baluarte]

Lena, as a Serb with Hungarian ancestry, what is your take here?

[Szegedist]

Hungary wasn't precisely the best/natural friend of Germany during WWII, yet they sided with them because it was the best thing they could do.
That is oversimplyfied a bit. Rather, we pursued an alliance with Germany, I read various sources that Gömbös gave money to the NSDAP, and he was also the first foreign politician to visit Hitler. Maybe more about this on some other topic.

As for Serbs, I will put it this way, if we imported lots of Zastava arms from them, they should be doublechecked to make sure they didnt purposely send us sabotaged ones. Chances are they would want them to fail if we ever used them on their Slavic Slovak brothers or Orthodox Romanian brothers.

I know from first hand experience that Hungarian nationalism and Serbian nationalism is simply not compactible, and some of the biggest haters of Hungarians are Serb nationalists, to them we are "Madjarske azijske govno subhumans"

[Szegedist]

Baluarte, you were a lot better at matchmaking people on the couples thread than matchmaking nations on here :wink

[Baluarte]

Baluarte, you were a lot better at matchmaking people on the couples thread than matchmaking nations on here :wink

What? o.O

[Baluarte]

Note from 2010:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solyom commends minority rights in Serbia

“We are happy with the fact that in Serbia, minorities enjoy cultural autonomy and that unlike other countries where Hungarians live, Serbia does not have laws against minorities using their native languages and schooling their kids in their mother tongue,” he said.

Solyom is on a three-day visit to Serbia on the invitation of the Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians.

“The care of the motherland for national minorities represents unity for the Hungarian people. Thanks to that unity, Hungarians in the Diaspora are able to overcome all challenges,” Solyom said.

He will be visiting mostly in Vojvodina during his three-day visit to Serbia and will be meeting with President Boris Tadić in Novi Sad on Sunday.

[Baluarte]

And a report from October 2012:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hungary and Serbia have been sharing Best-level Relations in recent times

Minister of Public Administration and Justice Tibor Navracsics considers Hungarian-Serbian relations to be better now than at any time in the recent past, and that the Alliance of Hungarians in Vajdaság/ Vojvodina (VMSZ) is able to effectively represent the interests of Hungarians living in that region.

Deputy Prime Minister Navracsics, who has recently returned from Belgrade, was speaking on the programme ‘180 Minutes’, broadcast on Kossuth Radio on Wednesday morning.

Mr. Navracsics said that the Hungarian government is committed to cooperating with the neighbouring country of Serbia, which is also open to such a relationship.

The minister said that an extremely close partnership can emerge between the two countries – a historic opportunity that must be utilised. He remarked that for centuries the two neighbouring nations had always opposed each other in historical conflicts, and this has given rise to much disquiet, but he now sees the relations between the two countries as being better than at any time in the recent past.

Mr. Navracsics said that the political representation of Hungarians in Vajdaság/Vojvodina – and the whole Hungarian community there – is going through a complicated period. One aspect is that simplified naturalisation procedures and open borders have produced an enormous temptation to relocate and migrate from Serbia, which has been hit by the economic crisis. He added that ‘The Serbian political scene is in such ferment and has witnessed the appearance of such contrasting players with divergent agendas, that Hungarians in Vajdaság/Vojvodina and their political representatives must redefine themselves in almost every area.’

Mr. Navracsics thinks that the VMSZ is responding appropriately to the demands which are arising and that it has support and legitimacy, and therefore he is confident that in the future the organisation will continue to effectively represent the interest of Hungarians in Vajdaság/Vojvodina.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not saying everything is perfect in Vojvodina for Hungarians, but with some more cooperation things can always be improved.

Why keep an useless feud?

[Baluarte]

Even more interesting, this was posted today:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Friday, 26 April 2013 19:42

Serbia, Hungary to intensify economic, political relations to mutual benefit

Prime Minister Ivica Dacic and his Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban highlighted the need to intensify economic and political relations between the two countries. Dacic, who was on a two-day visit to Hungary, said at a joint press conference with Orban that the meeting in Budapest marks the beginning of preparations for the forthcoming summit of the two countries. He recalled that the two countries have many common interests and share a long common history, and expressed gratitude to Hungary for its commitment and persistent efforts for Serbia to get a date for the beginning of EU accession negotiations as soon as possible and join the Union.

The Serbian Prime Minister said that the position of the Hungarian community in Serbia and the Serbian in Hungary was also discussed during the meeting. Dacic said that the Serbian government will continue its policy of good relations with the Hungarian minority, which in recent years has reduced the number of inter-ethnic incidents to its lowest in decades. When it comes to the possibilities of deepening economic cooperation, the Serbian Prime Minister pointed out that he agreed with Orban that it can be significantly improved.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Dear God, thank you for finally seeing it. Serbia needs investment, Hungary need more markets.

Good news at last :)

[Szegedist]

If you like Sólyom so much why not post about him signing the Holocaust denial law? There is a reason he was endorsed by the Socialists and Free Demokrats.

As for the rest of your politically correct articles, that is what they are, politically correct articles. I can post you many along the lines of "Slovakia and Hungary are strategic EU partners" and "Hungary and Romania are strategic regional NATO partners", and in a few years "Republic of Kosovo and Sebia are strategic economic partners".

Like I said, anything short of full territorial autonomy is not enough, but ideally these rightfully Hungarian territories should be part of Hungary.

I also don't understand your double standards, "Kosovo is Serbia, but Hungarians must make do with whatever they are given by Serbs on their own land, and the Serbs might take it away at any time"?

[Baluarte]

Like I said, anything short of full territorial autonomy is not enough, but ideally these rightfully Hungarian territories should be part of Hungary.

I also don't understand your double standards, "Kosovo is Serbia, but Hungarians must make do with whatever they are given by Serbs on their own land, and the Serbs might take it away at any time"?

Last line is total slander, I don't know if you've had a bad day (in which case I'm sorry) or not, but I've systematically said Hungarian minorities deserve all the political and civic rights that a State may give them.

This kind of lines "Dacic said that the Serbian government will continue its policy of good relations with the Hungarian minority, which in recent years has reduced the number of inter-ethnic incidents to its lowest in decades" is what I care about.

I'm just trying to propose ideas that may be beneficial for the countries, nothing more.

Everyone is welcomed to hate each other as much as they can, their problem.

[Szegedist]

Last line is total slander, I don't know if you've had a bad day (in which case I'm sorry) or not,
Well, I am not feeling the best because I seem to have caught a flu, especially this time of the year -_-, thanks for asking, you?


but I've systematically said Hungarian minorities deserve all the political and civic rights that a State may give them.
Like I said, full territorial autonomy is what I would tolerate. But the end goal is, always was, and always will territorial revision.
Having to beg for Autonomy from Serbia, Wallachia, etc, who only a few centuries ago were our vassal states is humiliating to say the least, and it puts us vulnerable to blackmail.



This kind of lines "Dacic said that the Serbian government will continue its policy of good relations with the Hungarian minority, which in recent years has reduced the number of inter-ethnic incidents to its lowest in decades" is what I care about.
oh really? Our goverment disagrees.
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2013/02/anti-hungarian-attacks-in-serbia.html

[Szegedist]

Balurate, Pál Teleki tried your approach, and he ended up shooting himself in the head as a result of it, then Bárdossy came along and carried out the will of the nation.

Simply "lets oppose Atlanto-zionism and unite for the sake of it" is not enough to create a long lasting relations, at best some superficial and shallow statements here and there, but this will fall apart at the smallest crack. Especially if you consider our nationalists vs their nationalists. Nationalist parties sing a different song to the typical European politician that rule the countries today.

Plus, hardly the Hungarian or the Serbian goverment is standing up to "Atlanto-zionism".

[Baluarte]

What do you feel about the IPA Cross Border Program?

I've reading about it this last hour and seems quite good.

"Cross-border Impact

In order to have joint projects with real cross-border effect, projects partners from both sides of the border should be involved. Projects have to be planned and implemented according to the joint co-operation criteria: joint planning, joint staffing, joint financing and joint implementation of projects. Project results should have impact on both sides of the border.

Public Procurement

The public procurement in the whole area of the cross-border Programme, both on Hungarian and Serbian territory will be carried out according to the contract procedures for EC external actions."

Here's the link: http://www.hu-srb-ipa.com/en/
Available also in Hungarian

[Szegedist]

The fact is, we have no reason to trust the Serbs. In history they backstabbed us many times. We opened our borders to them and allowed them to seek refuge, they stabbed us in the back, and they were the weakest link during the Ottoman Wars, they sabotaged parts of Hunyadi's campaign, and we can feel its consequences today.

Hungary also supports an independent Kosovo, due to our wishes for autonomy and maybe independent state in Transylvania. I am supportive of it too, for the reasons mentioned before, but also because I see it as a little bit of justice that was served.

Serbia is a country with small economy (2.5 smaller than Hungary), even Croatia (where the war was mostly concentrated and saw the most damage, is a smaller country with a smaller population) has a bigger economy than Serbia(showing the differences in mentality), with a 25% unemployment and overall a bad situation.

For us it would make more sense to co-operate with Croatia, which is more natural for us.

To force some "anti-zionist" alliance with Serbs (who by the way were good friends of the West until the West got bored of them) will have no results.

This is how they looked in the 10th century
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Serbia960AD.png


And while being faithful allies of the Ottomans, they managed to creep West and North and steal more lands from Christians. Even Belgrade was part of Hungary before it ever was part of Serbia. And today some of them still want to get their afghan hands on Pécs, Baranya, Baja. Some even think Szeged is theirs and call it "Segedin"



Balurate I know very well what many Serbian nationalists are like, what they think of us, their ideas and plans, and I would rather co-operate with Israel than Serbia (or Romania).
Serbian nationalism is by definition anti-Hungarian, so we should co-operate with them???

[Baluarte]

Regarding the last paragraph, would you be ok with Hungary actively taking in the NATO bandwagon if it was promised land in return?More or less like Albanians have?

[Szegedist]

Regarding the last paragraph, would you be ok with Hungary actively taking in the NATO bandwagon if it was promised land in return?More or less like Albanians have?

Though it wouldn't be ideal, but yes.

We must look out for our own interests, things are different these days, it is no longer about some greater Supranational cause, but our own interests. I am an ethnic nationalists, not some pan-European, pan-White, or pan-Christian...
You might say it is selfish, but given our situation it is only logical. We are a small non-Indo European people, surrounded by 100s of millions of hostile Slavs, Germanics, Roma-nians. We must do whatever it takes to secure our survival (within bounds off course, for example this rules out being a vassal slave).

The way I look at it, Euro-Atlantisits took our land, and if they gave it back, they would simply return what they stole from us. I see nothing wrong with that.

By the way, Hungary already IS on the Nato bandwagon, we joined in 1997.

[Baluarte]

I don't mean nominally. I mean active involvement. More or less sparing troops for them, systematically opposing Russia/Iran and perhaps defending some sort of EU.

Remember that the masters of Atlanticism never help anyone for free

[Arianiti]

Baluarte, why don't you go live in Serbia as you care so much. Or we will give them all to you and make them your neighbors and live happily ever after (in your dreams) :lol:

[Szegedist]

I don't mean nominally. I mean active involvement. More or less sparing troops for them, systematically opposing Russia/Iran and perhaps defending some sort of EU.

Remember that the masters of Atlanticism never help anyone for free

Today there are Hungarian peacekeeping forces in Kosova, Afghanistan, Bosnia....

[Arianiti]

Hungarians also work in international org, OSCE, Eulex, unmik etc.

[Baluarte]

Today there are Hungarian peacekeeping forces in Kosova, Afghanistan, Bosnia....

I didn't know you also had troops in Afghanistan... Hmm, well, ISAF does have a lot member countries.
Still the point remains, territorial exchanges today are very badly seen and done rarely, so I suppose they'd only agree to it if you completely aligned with the Atlantic camp, breaking contact with Russia, Iran and any country in the Eurasianist side.

[Szegedist]

I didn't know you also had troops in Afghanistan... Hmm, well, ISAF does have a lot member countries.
Still the point remains, territorial exchanges today are very badly seen and done rarely, so I suppose they'd only agree to it if you completely aligned with the Atlantic camp, breaking contact with Russia, Iran and any country in the Eurasianist side.

Transylvania > Russia+Iran
:thumb001:


But anyway, this talk is useless because it will never happen. Remember that they dislike us more than Serbs, who was their loyal puppet and ally for decades. I wonder who gave the green light to terrorist Gavrilo Princip....

Also remember that the West supported Greater Serbia ambitions, and if the Partisans didnt give the British falsified information, today we would have a "Greater Serbia" and no Croats, Albanians, Bosniaks, Vojvodina Hungarians, Slovenes, etc..

[Baluarte]

And so we're back to the point.

Given that Hungary and Serbia are both small countries under blackmail and pressure from the Atlantic camp, and that you've agreed that Russia has an important role to play to counter that, what should the two countries do? Continuing the hostility seems slightly stupid to me.

If the Serb nationalists do sport that hard anti-Hungarian attitude, they'll just have to grow up a bit, get a grip and establish priorities.....

The point is, what is the next smart move to make?

[Szegedist]

If the Serb nationalists do sport that hard anti-Hungarian attitude, they'll just have to grow up a bit, get a grip and establish priorities.....
Yeah.. thats not going to happen.


The point is, what is the next smart move to make?
They can return stolen land, and we will dislike them a bit less.

[Baluarte]

Is the Hungarian society really that hateful regarding Serbians?

[Szegedist]

Is the Hungarian society really that hateful regarding Serbians?

They are not viewed the most positively, that is for sure..

[Szegedist]

Dont forget that Serb nationalists have good relations with Slovak and Romanian nationalists, and support them against Hungarians.

[Baluarte]

They are not a compact bloc.

Romanians are happy to recognise Kosovo, no difference between the political parties.

[Szegedist]

They are not a compact bloc.

Romanians are happy to recognise Kosovo, no difference between the political parties.

Romania has so far not recognized Kosovo. And I am talking about their nationalists, patriots, right wingers and so on..

[riverman]

Friendship is not a requirement. Having a dose of suspicion is always good.

The Americans and Brits have no love for the Albanians, yet that is not a problem when it comes to working together in the Balkans.

Hungary wasn't precisely the best/natural friend of Germany during WWII, yet they sided with them because it was the best thing they could do.

Your logic is jumbled up, Russia opposed Germany in WW11 yet you seem to think it logical that "anti-"Atlanticists" would be pro-Russia

[Baluarte]

Today's Russia doesn't have the role of the Soviet Union.

Regarding the opposition to Atlanticism (don't know why you have to put quotes), it is also the country that has both the capacity and the will to oppose them better.

We saw that in Georgia quite clearly in 2008 for example. The Russians are they key figure regarding the protection of Syria, and the support to Iran, which has been completely boycotted by the US and its vassal countries.

As such, any credible opposition to NATO today must necessarily start by taking Russia into account, and eventually include a role for China as well.

[Lena]

Is the Hungarian society really that hateful regarding Serbians?

lol! no, of course not :icon_smile: I never had a single prob over there and ppl were always helpful and friendly to me.

[Szegedist]

lol! no, of course not :icon_smile: I never had a single prob over there and ppl were always helpful and friendly to me.

Dont forget that you are part Hungarian ;)

But in reality tourism is not a good indication...
When I go on holliday, people were friendly to me everywhere...

[Lena]

Dont forget that you are part Hungarian ;)

But in reality tourism is not a good indication...
When I go on holliday, people were friendly to me everywhere...

IF it's what you claim it to be, I wouldn't be somewhat Hungarian :wink There are many Serbian citizens of Hungarian ethnic background, such is Zoltán Dani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani) who are not only friendly to us, but very loyal to our motherland Serbia.

[Szegedist]

IF it's what you claim it to be, I wouldn't be somewhat Hungarian :wink There are many Serbian citizens of Hungarian ethnic background, such is Zoltán Dani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani) who are not only friendly to us, but very loyal to our motherland Serbia.

Don't forget Serb who was loyal to Hungary, János "ljuta guja, srpski izdajica" Damjanich.

The following quote is allegedly accredited to him, "Serbs shouldn't exist; I won't be still until the last Serb on this earth is dead and once that is done, I shall kill myself."

But don't forget that historically Hungarian soldiers fought in many armies, and often were hired as mercenaries.

[riverman]

Today's Russia doesn't have the role of the Soviet Union.

Regarding the opposition to Atlanticism (don't know why you have to put quotes), it is also the country that has both the capacity and the will to oppose them better.

We saw that in Georgia quite clearly in 2008 for example. The Russians are they key figure regarding the protection of Syria, and the support to Iran, which has been completely boycotted by the US and its vassal countries.

As such, any credible opposition to NATO today must necessarily start by taking Russia into account, and eventually include a role for China as well.

No, Russia is not a necessary ally for opposition to 'atlanticism', the countries allied to Israel and the U.S. don't have to be, it's a political/societal choice.

[Baluarte]

^^ That is some hardcore Serb self-hate

[Szegedist]

Balurate, have a look at this:

http://www.refworld.org/type,CHRON,,,469f38f5c,0.html


What do you think?

[Baluarte]

I knew of it, it's all prior to the 2000s measures.
Condamnable things, and I do hope proper reparation is done.

[Szegedist]

I knew of it, it's all prior to the 2000s measures.
Condamnable things, and I do hope proper reparation is done.

Irrelevant when it happened, it simply created the framework for the further Serbianification of Vojvodina.

[Baluarte]

Irrelevant when it happened, it simply created the framework for the further Serbianification of Vojvodina.

Irrelevant? Chronology is 1992-1999.
So what do you want me to say?
Hurr durr,evil Serbs?

This happened and it was problematic. More initiatives to grant civil and political rights in the 2000s have been set in motion, and that is true.
I'm quite sure there are still things to fix, but I believe that with enough good will and cooperation a satisfactory result may be eventually achieved.

[Szegedist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaoiZcQxmMk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INJEWhGXu4U



:laugh: :laugh:

[Stefan_Dusan]

If Hungary wants Vojvodina back, you can invade and see how much you want to bleed for it. Other than that, no one is going to give you a land now vast vast majority Serb.

You lost Vojvodina exploiting Serbs to buffer your empire from Ottoman one. Whenever Ottoman advanced, you were the first to flee. Remember what Jovan Nenad said.

In the end I don't know who you're fooling.

[Szegedist]

If Hungary wants Vojvodina back, you can invade and see how much you want to bleed for it. Other than that, no one is going to give you a land now vast vast majority Serb.
Vast majority Serb? And how did that happen?

Ps, if you want to talk about demographics, tell me more about Kosovo, otherwise it is pure hypocrisy :)


You lost Vojvodina exploiting Serbs to buffer your empire from Ottoman one. Whenever Ottoman advanced, you were the first to flee. Remember what Jovan Nenad said.

In the end I don't know who you're fooling.

Tell me about Serbs who fled from Kosovo and south Serbia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Menekulo_szerbek.JPG

[Stefan_Dusan]

Vast majority Serb? And how did that happen?

Ps, if you want to talk about demographics, tell me more about Kosovo, otherwise it is pure hypocrisy :)



Tell me about Serbs who fled from Kosovo and south Serbia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Menekulo_szerbek.JPG

The Serbian state, who resisted Ottomans until maybe 1540, had to keep moving north to survive. Oh well, you used us for your purposes and lost some land as result. As to Kosovo, it's different story. We never used Albanians to fight our battles.

[Szegedist]

The Serbian state, who resisted Ottomans until maybe 1540, had to keep moving north to survive.
Yeah, in other words, you fled north into the safety of Hungary, later the Habsburg empire.



Oh well, you used us for your purposes and lost some land as result. As to Kosovo, it's different story. We never used Albanians to fight our battles.
We all know what kind of battles you fought

"The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousands Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs instead of ethnic Turkish people".[6] "Southern Slavs were also acting as akinjis and other light troops intended for pillaging in the territory of present-day Hungary."[7]


Sources, references: Laszlo Kontler, "A History of Hungary" p. 145

Inalcik Halil: "The Ottoman Empire"

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yeah, in other words, you fled north into the safety of Hungary, later the Habsburg empire.

No, the buffer Serbian state kept gravitating north upon encouragement of Hungary to keep your people in peace as much as possible.


"The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousands Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs instead of ethnic Turkish people".[6] "Southern Slavs were also acting as akinjis and other light troops intended for pillaging in the territory of present-day Hungary."[7]


Sources, references: Laszlo Kontler, "A History of Hungary" p. 145

Inalcik Halil: "The Ottoman Empire"

Turkish used people from around the empire to stamp their armies. Nothing new, traitors everywhere but Serbs are the only nation to keep fighting and fighting and fighting.

[Szegedist]

Serbs are the only nation to keep fighting and fighting and fighting.

You can tell this to your friends in America and fool them, about how Serbia is the only true defender of Christianity. But your neighbors know better, and you have a very colourful history of collaboration.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You can tell this to your friends in America and fool them, about how Serbia is the only true defender of Christianity. But your neighbors know better, and you have a very colourful history of collaboration.

Not very. Every single occupied Balkan country has bigger. Serbia was the most rebellious, last of occupied Balkan people to be taken, and first to get freedom back. In your spirit of using us, you lost some land. Maybe next time fight your own battles instead of propping Serbian people to do it, promising them free land in return.

[Szegedist]

Your Jovan was one little opportunist, who took advantage of the political chaos in Hungary 1526 onwards.

We did not use you, many Serbs fled into Hungary from the Ottomans to seek refuge, and some may have served as soldiers for gratitude.

After the Battle of Mohács in 1526, much of the territory of southern Hungary came under Ottoman administration. During Ottoman administration towns in southern Hungary began decaying and the former Hungarian and German population left them. In that time, especially in the 17th century, many Serb, and other Southern Slavic migrants settled in this territory.



. Every single occupied Balkan country has bigger. Serbia was the most rebellious,
Now this is debatable.

[gordoservon]

I've just found this thread, and I would like to make a simple chronology of Serbian-Hungarian relations.

Slavs came to the Balkans in the 6th and 7th century, Hungarians or Magyars have arrived from the Carphat basin arround 9th century, and who do they found living in today's Vojvodina and panoninan basin? Slavs. Mostly they've assimilated them, but not all.

Serbs we're ruling part's of today's Vojvodina since the 12th century, google for Belos Vukanovic, Dragutin Nemanjic etc.
And since 15th century having possesions given by King Mathias Corvinus, who called one Serbian house "the pillars of Christianity".
Pal Kinizsi, or Pavle iz kneza serbian-born, has comanded the Black Army of Hungary.
After the disaster of Mohacs (which by chance also Serbs fought?!),and ocupation of Hungary, Serbs defended the Military frontier from the Ottoman turks. While most hungarians living there run north in fear of the turks, the serbian military frontsman stayed, and defended the southern border. In the begining of 18th century Vojvodina was 99% Serbian. Then in the middle of the century,a colonisation started when most of the minorites came, Germans,Hungarians,Slovaks etc. Serbian people we're geting magyarized along with other non-german people. Clear examples like Petefi Sandor (Aleksandar Petrovic),and Janos Damjanic(self-hating serb)...two of your greatest heroes, who happen to be Serbs?!

In 1848, Serbs responded to the misstreatment and formed the province Serbian Voivodeship which was under legal protection of the Habsburgs, so Vojvodina is nothing new for Hungarians. The same rights you tried to denied Serbs in the 19th century, we are giving back to you, you can have cultural manifestiations, use your language freely, educated on your mother tongue in schools,use it at work,in everyday life.
Vojvodina Hungarian? Cause of architecture? We also contributed to Hungarian architecture, check Szentandrea. It doesn't make Szentandrea Serbian, at least not any more.

What happens in some tows, are isolated cases, and are NOT ethnicly based! It happend all the time. And using cheap chauvinistic tricks, won't help your people living here.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Your Jovan was one little opportunist, who took advantage of the political chaos in Hungary 1526 onwards.

We did not use you, many Serbs fled into Hungary from the Ottomans to seek refuge, and some may have served as soldiers for gratitude.

After the Battle of Mohács in 1526, much of the territory of southern Hungary came under Ottoman administration. During Ottoman administration towns in southern Hungary began decaying and the former Hungarian and German population left them. In that time, especially in the 17th century, many Serb, and other Southern Slavic migrants settled in this territory.

Not many Serbs fled to Hungary. They fled to Serbian state propped by Hungarians to keep their borders calm. Like I said, used. When Hungarians used Serbs to rebel, it was Serbs who paid price. Not Hungarian civilians.


Now this is debatable.

It is not at all debatable. No balkan people fought Turks more than Serbs in occupied in Balkans. It's not even close.

[Szegedist]

Slavs came to the Balkans in the 6th and 7th century, Hungarians or Magyars have arrived from the Carphat basin arround 9th century, and who do they found living in today's Vojvodina and panoninan basin? Slavs. Mostly they've assimilated them, but not all.
Serbs =/= Slavs
The Slavs who lived there were most likely Bulgarians, as this region, including Beligrad was under Bulgarian influence before Hungarians, the Serb state was always south of the Danube.



Serbs we're ruling part's of today's Vojvodina since the 12th century, google for Belos Vukanovic, Dragutin Nemanjic etc.
None of those ruled Vojvodina.


After the disaster of Mohacs (which by chance also Serbs fought?!),and ocupation of Hungary, Serbs defended the Military frontier from the Ottoman turks. While most hungarians living there run north in fear of the turks, the serbian military frontsman stayed, and defended the southern border.
Rather the opposite, many Serbs arrived with the Turks, and began pillaging Hungarian areas.


Clear examples like Petefi Sandor (Aleksandar Petrovic),and Janos Damjanic(self-hating serb)...two of your greatest heroes, who happen to be Serbs?!
Serbian roots of Petőfi are debatable. But one thing is sure, he was Protestant, you heard of a Protestant Serb?


In 1848, Serbs responded to the misstreatment and formed the province Serbian Voivodeship which was under legal protection of the Habsburgs, so Vojvodina is nothing new for Hungarians.
In 1848, the Serbs in South Hungary were simply mutineers and 5th column opportunists. And yes Vojvodina is very new for Hungarians, since it is a creation only from 1848.


we are giving back to you, you can have cultural manifestiations, use your language freely, educated on your mother tongue in schools,use it at work,in everyday life.
I wonder how many of these laws would exist if the West didnt watch your moves?


Vojvodina Hungarian? Cause of architecture? We also contributed to Hungarian architecture, check Szentandrea. It doesn't make Szentandrea Serbian, at least not any more.
Serbs in Szentendre were no different, to say Serb migrations to Australia.
And I aknowledge Serb claims to some parts of Vojvodina, however many areas, especially most of Bácska are Hungarian.

[Szegedist]

It is not at all debatable. No balkan people fought Turks more than Serbs in occupied in Balkans. It's not even close.

Like I said, this might work on people who are not so familiar with the region, but others know better, especially your neigbours.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Like I said, this might work on people who are not so familiar with the region, but others know better, especially your neigbours.

Yes, out of Serbian neighbors why were we the first (Serbian uprising 1, 2) to get freedom? Why did we help out our other neighbors to get freedom? Where are there stories in every centuries. Serbians have mass heroes in 1300s, 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s against turks. And most of our mountain clans never paid tribute to turks.

[gordoservon]

Serbs =/= Slavs
The Slavs who lived there were most likely Bulgarians, as this region, including Beligrad was under Bulgarian influence before Hungarians, the Serb state was always south of the Danube.

There is no evidence that there was just bulgarians, mostly they were of south-slavic mix of various tribes.


None of those ruled Vojvodina.

Bump! Yes they did. Belos ruled as Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia, which had Syrmia. Stefan Dragutin known as Syrmian King.


Rather the opposite, many Serbs arrived with the Turks, and began pillaging Hungarian areas.

You would wish that. Serbs protected hungarian asses. Serbs arrived FLEEING from the turks. And it is the Serbs who formed the Hussar light cavalry you hold so proudly in your username. Husar=Gusar(serbian-pirate). Hussars were also formed in Poland, by Raci/Rasani from Raska, Serbian medieval state.


Serbian roots of Petőfi are debatable. But one thing is sure, he was Protestant, you heard of a Protestant Serb?

They are not debatable. His father was a Serb butcher called Stevan. And yes as a matter fact I knew a few protestant's, one of my friends mother is a member.


In 1848, the Serbs in South Hungary were simply mutineers and 5th column opportunists. And yes Vojvodina is very new for Hungarians, since it is a creation only from 1848.

I cleared to you the facts why Serbs allied with Austrians, as well as Croats did. Vojvodina was first created by Jovan Nenad, long before 1848.



I wonder how many of these laws would exist if the West didnt watch your moves?

It doesn't have to do with the west. We respect our minorites. And forever was like that. People like you, want to make artificial hatred between Serbs and Hungarians.



Serbs in Szentendre were no different, to say Serb migrations to Australia.
And I aknowledge Serb claims to some parts of Vojvodina, however many areas, especially most of Bácska are Hungarian.

I should make clear to you, that I live in Backa, who's family has been living in Vojvodina from the period of last 3 centuries, and bullshit claims like that, you can hang up on a tree.

[riverman]

I don't mean nominally. I mean active involvement. More or less sparing troops for them, systematically opposing Russia/Iran and perhaps defending some sort of EU.

Remember that the masters of Atlanticism never help anyone for free

All the countries you like are in NATO.

[Stefan_Dusan]

All the countries you like are in NATO.

The only country worth liking in NATO is Greece. And they proved their friendship. Serbs have only 2 friends, God and Greeks.

[Szegedist]

There is no evidence that there was just bulgarians, mostly they were of south-slavic mix of various tribes.
Most likely Avars too. But remember, medieval Serbian state was always SOUTH of the Danube. Even before Hungarians.


Bump! Yes they did. Belos ruled as Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia, which had Syrmia. Stefan Dragutin known as Syrmian King.
Syrmia =/= all of Vojvodina. Remember that historically, Backa, Banat was part of Hungary, and Syrmia part of Croatia.




You would wish that. Serbs protected hungarian asses. Serbs arrived FLEEING from the turks.
Some arrived fleeing from the Turks, some arrived with the Turks during Ottoman Hungary, some arrived after Turks. It is a fact that many South Slavs arrived in Hungary with the Turks during Ottoman occupation.
And how exactly did you project us, loot our territory?


And it is the Serbs who formed the Hussar light cavalry you hold so proudly in your username. Husar=Gusar(serbian-pirate).
Etymology of Hussar is disputed, there are many theories.





They are not debatable. His father was a Serb butcher called Stevan.
It is debatable whether was of Slovak or Serb roots.



I cleared to you the facts why Serbs allied with Austrians, as well as Croats did. Vojvodina was first created by Jovan Nenad, long before 1848.
Jovan Nenad the opportunist who took advantage of the unstable situation in Hungary after 1526.




It doesn't have to do with the west. We respect our minorites. And forever was like that.
This is a lie and you know it, if you cetnici had their way, there would be no non-Serbs in Serbia.




People like you, want to make artificial hatred between Serbs and Hungarians.
Haha good one, we know very all what "big Serbian patriots" think of Hungarians. You are the most chauvinist people in the Balkan, Croats the Avars&Catholic Serbs, Hungarians the primitive invaders, Bulgarians the primitive invaders, Bosniaks the Turks, Albanians the invaders from the Caucasus. Only the Serbs are the Nebeski Narod who held back the Ottomans and single handedly defeated them and threw them out of Europe.

You are not fooling anybody.




I should make clear to you, that I live in Backa, who's family has been living in Vojvodina from the period of last 3 centuries, and bullshit claims like that, you can hang up on a tree.
3 centuries, that puts you in about the time of the great Serbs migrations from 1690 and 1737-1739.

And it is in no way bullshit, Serbs were a minority in Backa, even during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. But after WW2, after deportations, massacres, forced assimilations and colonizations, Serbs eventually became a majority in the region.

[Szegedist]

What does this vlach has to do with anything !?
Talking about yourself? Goodbye!


It's time for you to learn who and what Hunyadi was. If you want to give an example of hungarian fighting spirit you should use a hungarian historical figure. I'm sure you'll find one or two :)

PS: as for the topic of this thread - as Huszar already said, nothing more than fairy tales.
In the worst possible scenario, Hunyadi was still half Hungarian :))

[Zmey Gorynych]

Talking about yourself? Goodbye!
Ha-ha ... in the sense of eastern romance speaker yes ... the connotation attributed by you to the word applies only to you :)



In the worst possible scenario, Hunyadi was still half Hungarian :))
In a scenario imagined by your lot definitely, but not in real life as proven by actual historical accounts.

[gordoservon]

Most likely Avars too. But remember, medieval Serbian state was always SOUTH of the Danube. Even before Hungarians.

Haha. I just proved you othervise, Kingdom of Syrmia 1282-1325 north of danube. Peace.



Remember that historically, Backa, Banat was part of Hungary, and Syrmia part of Croatia.

Srem and Banat always had Serbian majority, with considerable German population. Backa although in the 18th cent. was majority Serbian, in the 19th century was pretty much even - Hungarians,Serbs and Germans, no population was dominant over other. With the process of magyarisation, the Serbian population(and other non-german) started to decline, and Hungarians went eventualy to be the majority in the 20th century, or the demographic census in 1910.





Some arrived fleeing from the Turks, some arrived with the Turks during Ottoman Hungary, some arrived after Turks. It is a fact that many South Slavs arrived in Hungary with the Turks during Ottoman occupation.
And how exactly did you project us, loot our territory?

You would want that, I know. But as a matter of fact, Hungarian kings, (remember Mathias Corvinus?) INVITED the Serbs to settle in southern Hungary, to get away from turkish dogs. Serbs repay this with service in the Christian coalition to fight the otomans.

For God's sake man, we owned like half of Hungary in that time. Our Despots and Lords had castles in pretty much all of today's Hungary,google for Vuk Grgurevic, Jovan Brankovic, Pavle Bakic, Dmitar Jaksic, just some of the Serbs who cut many turkish heads, and enjoyed privilige under the Hungarian crown.

And as for protecting you, I'll mention just a few.
siege of belgrade 1456, serbs and hungarians defended europe, and stoped turkish advance for 70 years
battle of breadfield 1479, serb knights contributing to the important victory



Etymology of Hussar is disputed, there are many theories.

I explained you already it's a proven fact, everything Serbian for you is disputed. LOL





It is debatable whether was of Slovak or Serb roots.

Ever heard of a Slovak with a surname Petrovic? Didn't think so.



Jovan Nenad the opportunist who took advantage of the unstable situation in Hungary after 1526.

He was an military comander, he proclaimed himself emperor, if it wasn't for a large coaliton against him, his state would endure longer.





This is a lie and you know it, if you cetnici had their way, there would be no non-Serbs in Serbia.


No you are the liar. If your Jobbik had this way, there would be no non-Hugarians in Vojvodina. Everyone who respects our country is a respectful citizen. Excluding gypsys.



Haha good one, we know very all what "big Serbian patriots" think of Hungarians. You are the most chauvinist people in the Balkan, Croats the Avars&Catholic Serbs, Hungarians the primitive invaders, Bulgarians the primitive invaders, Bosniaks the Turks, Albanians the invaders from the Caucasus. Only the Serbs are the Nebeski Narod who held back the Ottomans and single handedly defeated them and threw them out of Europe.

You are not fooling anybody.

Bla bla bla..Serbs genocidal maniacs, mambo-jambo....heard it all before, anything new? Would you care to have a normal constructive conversation, or you are just an chauvinist who hates neighbouring nations? Why are you Anti-European? And when I say that, I don't mean Anti-EU, cause I'm againt EU, when I say Anti-European, i mean why are you against White nations.
You do realize you are surounded by Romania, Serbia and Slovakia. And if you would try something, against these countries, you would get in some serious shit. Hungary would be gone from this map. You better care for your nation and how to make a better life for them, and to get rid of the gipsy problem.
No more brothers wars!





3 centuries, that puts you in about the time of the great Serbs migrations from 1690 and 1737-1739.

And it is in no way bullshit, Serbs were a minority in Backa, even during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. But after WW2, after deportations, massacres, forced assimilations and colonizations, Serbs eventually became a majority in the region.

Yes I see you know about the Great Serb migrations. My ancestor came in Srem. And my great grandfather came to Backa, i'm the 3rd generation who lives here now. I told you up what was the demographics in Backa, you were the majority for just small period, and that was cause of the colonisation and magyarisation of Serbian and non-german people.

[Szegedist]

Haha. I just proved you othervise, Kingdom of Syrmia 1282-1325 north of danube. Peace.
Syrmia is not the same as Serbia.



Srem and Banat always had Serbian majority, with considerable German population. Backa although in the 18th cent. was majority Serbian, in the 19th century was pretty much even - Hungarians,Serbs and Germans, no population was dominant over other. With the process of magyarisation, the Serbian population(and other non-german) started to decline, and Hungarians went eventualy to be the majority in the 20th century, or the demographic census in 1910.
If by always, you mean since the Ottoman Wars?

Bánát for example

Total population of Hungary (Fig. 14) in 1715 was only 1,700,000 and that of Transylvania (Fig. 15) was 800,000. The wars between Hungary and the Turkish Empire (Fig. 16) devastated the territories, depopulating towns and villages. When the territory was reclaimed by the Hapsburgs, rich land owners and Crown agencies began to recruit Germans from Austria and southern Germany to fill the void and develop the lands.

Rumanians began (c. 1720-30's)(Fig. 17) to move west into Transylvania and ultimately into the Partium and the Bánát, where they had been unknown a century before. The Partiurn (Hungarian term) were regions, which, while not belonging to the recognized historic Transylvania and the southern, southeastern parts of Hungary, had been ruled by local princes in the Turkish era. Half of these had been restored to the Kingdom of Hungary by Charles III in 1738.

The other half (the Counties of Közép-Szolnok, Krszna and Zárand and the District of Kövár) were still with Transylvania in 1780.

The military authorities distrusted the Magyars politically and militarily. Therefore they strengthened the area with other populations more reliable, viz. the Germans and Serbs. Magyars were deliberately excluded from the Bánát.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~banatdata/Glogowatz/FrankGerner/Coins.htm

And I dont dispute Srem, it has always been Slavic.






You would want that, I know. But as a matter of fact, Hungarian kings, (remember Mathias Corvinus?) INVITED the Serbs to settle in southern Hungary,
Yes and this was a big mistake, the same mistake Western Europe is doing now by letting in immigrant refugees from the Middle East and so on...


For God's sake man, we owned like half of Hungary in that time.
You are exaggerating. You also confuse between the Serbian nation, and Nobles of Serbian origin loyal to the Hungarian Crown. Ethnicity was not so important in those days.




And as for protecting you, I'll mention just a few.
siege of belgrade 1456, serbs and hungarians defended europe, and stoped turkish advance for 70 years
battle of breadfield 1479, serb knights contributing to the important victory
Fighting alongside us is not the same as protecting us.





I explained you already it's a proven fact, everything Serbian for you is disputed. LOL

Etymologists are divided over the derivation of the word 'hussar'.[3]


According to Webster's the word hussar stems from the Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from the Serbian and Croatian хусар (Husar, or гусар, Gusar) meaning pirate, from the Medieval Latin cursarius (cf. the English word corsair).[4] A variant of this theory is offered by Byzantinist scholars, who argue the term originated in Roman military practice, and the cursarii (singular cursarius).[5] Origin of the word is also attributed to old Italian.

ccording to another theory, the word is derived from the Hungarian word húsz "twenty", suggesting that hussar regiments were originally composed of twenty men.[3] Or the term huszár probably signified 'one in twenty' as selected for service by ballot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar

And so on..


No you are the liar. If your Jobbik had this way, there would be no non-Hugarians in Vojvodina.
Now that is a lie, Jobbik never ever called for such things, or insulted Serbia or Serbs.


Everyone who respects our country is a respectful citizen. Excluding gypsys.
That is not quite true and you know it.





Bla bla bla..Serbs genocidal maniacs, mambo-jambo....heard it all before, anything new? Would you care to have a normal constructive conversation, or you are just an chauvinist who hates neighbouring nations? Why are you Anti-European? And when I say that, I don't mean Anti-EU, cause I'm againt EU, when I say Anti-European, i mean why are you against White nations.
You do realize you are surounded by Romania, Serbia and Slovakia. And if you would try something, against these countries, you would get in some serious shit. Hungary would be gone from this map. You better care for your nation and how to make a better life for them, and to get rid of the gipsy problem.
No more brothers wars!

I am not a White Nationalist, and I don't care for our so called "White Brothers". Why are you Serbs disrespectful to your white brothers the Albanians and Bosniaks?






Yes I see you know about the Great Serb migrations. My ancestor came in Srem. And my great grandfather came to Backa, i'm the 3rd generation who lives here now. I told you up what was the demographics in Backa, you were the majority for just small period, and that was cause of the colonisation and magyarisation of Serbian and non-german people.
We were majority in Bácska before the Ottoman wars reached South Hungary, and we eventually regained our presence there.


Dont forget, that in the territory we liberated in WW2, Serbs were a small minority. Hungarians were even majority in Backa during the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
And as far as colonization, assimilation goes, please dont be a hypocrite thanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Kosovo

That is the problem with you Serbs, hypocrite. "Vojvodina is ours because we are the majority there, and Kosovo is also ours, even though we are about 5% there".

[Szegedist]

95% of big Serb patriots I exchanged words with sound exactly like this guy, if not worse when talking about Hungarians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INJEWhGXu4U

I like to think that this isn't the case, but the vast majority seem like this....

Average person who doesn't care about politics or is more liberal oriented probably doesn't think like this, but I am more interested in what the nationalists of a country think, and what they think is clear to me.

[Baluarte]

Nationalism is always built top down.

I wonder why you've never considered the idea that promoting a figure like Prince Paul, friendly with Hungarians, would be useful.
Instead you just reduced Serbian nationalism to a simplistic category of "They are enemies".

[Szegedist]

I wonder why you've never considered the idea that promoting a figure like Prince Paul, friendly with Hungarians, would be useful.
What is there to promote about Prince Paul ?



Instead you just reduced Serbian nationalism to a simplistic category of "They are enemies".
Because Serb nationalists are our enemies.

[Baluarte]

Didn't he sign the treaty of friendship with Hungary, tried his best to remain neutral in the war, and prevent Allied movements?

I thought you knew that this is the reason that got the Brits to sponsor a coup against him.

---

Hungary won't get very far with this manichean attitude. Slovakia is already very repressive and Romania seems to be doing everything they can to undermine the Szeklers.

Why is it so important to burn the few bridges that have been built with Serbia, like political and civil rights for Hungarians?

[Szegedist]

Lets not get into Stormfrontesque White pride world wide bullshit.

It is an utopic idea, which will never happen. They hate us, we dislike them, such is life.

[Szegedist]

Didn't he sign the treaty of friendship with Hungary, tried his best to remain neutral in the war, and prevent Allied movements?

I thought you knew that this is the reason that got the Brits to sponsor a coup against him.

You mean, in the same way Hungary and Romania, or Israel and Germany today are officially allies and friends?

[Baluarte]

It is an utopic idea, which will never happen. They hate us, we dislike them, such is life.

No point talking then.
Better to stay brooding and losing separately to the West.

[Szegedist]

Hungary won't get very far with this manichean attitude. Slovakia is already very repressive and Romania seems to be doing everything they can to undermine the Szeklers.

Why is it so important to burn the few bridges that have been built with Serbia, like political and civil rights for Hungarians?

Balurate, if the West wasn't watching, there would no Hungarian left in Vojvodina. After the Bosniaks and Albanians, we were next, the war just didnt last long enough.

[Szegedist]

No point talking then.
Better to stay brooding and losing separately to the West.

And what will happen if we sign "Serb-Hungarian friendship treaty of 2013"? Absolutely nothing. Serbia is in a worse situation than even we. You expect some miracles?

Serbia in its current enlarged shape is a creation of the Anglo-Jacobin alliance.

You are fan of the Habsburgs Balurate, so why you support Serbs who assassinated their heir?

[Baluarte]

Because I don't have fix positions. What matters to me is that the few people in this world that believe in a different future, other than what USrael forces to us every day, find a way to coexist and perhaps some form of cooperation for that purpose.

That is all that matters to me

[riverman]

Because I don't have fix positions. What matters to me is that the few people in this world that believe in a different future, other than what USrael forces to us every day, find a way to coexist and perhaps some form of cooperation for that purpose.

That is all that matters to me

Is that why the countries you support are in NATO?

[riverman]

...........

[Baluarte]

Is that why the countries you support are in NATO?

:picard2: Not going to drift into the discussion regarding the difference between countries that lead/direct NATO and those whose governments are simply submissive. I'll participate if you open a thread about it though.

[riverman]

:picard2: Not going to drift into the discussion regarding the difference between countries that lead/direct NATO and those whose governments are simply submissive. I'll participate if you open a thread about it though.

.............:bored:

[Szegedist]

Because I don't have fix positions. What matters to me is that the few people in this world that believe in a different future, other than what USrael forces to us every day, find a way to coexist and perhaps some form of cooperation for that purpose.

That is all that matters to me

Sure there will be Serb-Hungarian co-operation, between Democratic Party and our goverment, between Tadic and Orbán.

But with the Cetniks, we have nothing to discuss.

[Baluarte]

Sure there will be Serb-Hungarian co-operation, between Democratic Party and our goverment, between Tadic and Orbán.

But with the Cetniks, we have nothing to discuss.

Fair enough, I guess that I can't legitimately ask anything more right now.
I do hope that in the future, both nationalist trends manage to see the folly of keeping a feud, when the world around them is about to strike them down.

[Szegedist]

Fair enough, I guess that I can't legitimately ask anything more right now.
I do hope that in the future, both nationalist trends manage to see the folly of keeping a feud, when the world around them is about to strike them down.


Balurate, Hungary (Axis) planned on invading Romania (also Axis) during WW2. Hitler could not allow this, hence he quickly decided to settle it peacefully with Vienna Awards.

What do you think will be different this time? When the world around begins to "strike down" as you put it, hopefully that will be one in a 100 years opportunity for us to strike them and make justice.

With Serbs, that moment came in the 90s when we stood by and did nothing. Hopefully it will be different next time and we wont betray our brethren again in Detached territories again.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Nationalism is always built top down.

I wonder why you've never considered the idea that promoting a figure like Prince Paul, friendly with Hungarians, would be useful.
Instead you just reduced Serbian nationalism to a simplistic category of "They are enemies".

Prince Paul is not a nationalist but a traitor and my only regret is that he wasn't hanged in coup. Along with every German family in Serbia. There is no room for Germans in Serbia anymore.

[Baluarte]

And the guys working for Britain are not traitors?

[Stefan_Dusan]

And the guys working for Britain are not traitors?

When it comes to cooperating with Germany against Russia and Greece, everyone is traitor. Serbians will always stand with Greece, and when it comes to Germany, with Russia. No traitors there, just will of Serbian people.

[Szegedist]

When it comes to cooperating with Germany against Russia and Greece, everyone is traitor. Serbians will always stand with Greece, and when it comes to Germany, with Russia. No traitors there, just will of Serbian people.

Many of your comrades seem to have extreme Germanophobia , like I never witnessed before.

Maybe my imagine is tainted by the "wrong kind" of Serb?

[Lena]

Prince Paul is not a nationalist but a traitor and my only regret is that he wasn't hanged in coup. Along with every German family in Serbia. There is no room for Germans in Serbia anymore.

May I remind you of Georg Weifert, ethnic German, on our 1000 dinars bill :icon_smile:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/1000RSD_front.jpg

[Szegedist]

It doesn't have to do with the west. We respect our minorites.



Along with every German family in Serbia. There is no room for Germans in Serbia anymore.
So who is right and who is wrong?

[Lena]

So who is right and who is wrong?

We don't trust German(y)s/ their foreign policy, but we honor good people.

[Permafrost]

Prince Paul is not a nationalist but a traitor and my only regret is that he wasn't hanged in coup. Along with every German family in Serbia. There is no room for Germans in Serbia anymore.

There were ethnic Germans, though, from Vojvodina, who fought on the side of the Yugoslav partisans. They put their necks on the line for Serbs, just like some Germans from Styria did for Slovenes.

http://bs.scribd.com/doc/52840345/ceta-Ernst-Telman

[Stefan_Dusan]

Many of your comrades seem to have extreme Germanophobia , like I never witnessed before.

Maybe my imagine is tainted by the "wrong kind" of Serb?

When Germans line up and shoot our school children to suppress rebellions, they hold entire serbian nation responsible. So I hold entire German nation responsible. Every single German is not wanted in Serbia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

May I remind you of Georg Weifert, ethnic German, on our 1000 dinars bill :icon_smile:



He was Yugoslav origin of banking system. Just more example of German (in this case A-h) imperialism over Serbian people.

[Stefan_Dusan]

There were ethnic Germans, though, from Vojvodina, who fought on the side of the Yugoslav partisans. They put their necks on the line for Serbs, just like some Germans from Styria did for Slovenes.

http://bs.scribd.com/doc/52840345/ceta-Ernst-Telman

They were few and far between, and communists. Of course communists will fight with communists. Vast majority of Germans did nothing or supported Nazis upon invasion of Yugoslavia. One thing is for sure, the enemy of Serbia today is not Turks but entire German people.

[Szegedist]

When Germans line up and shoot our school children to suppress rebellions, they hold entire serbian nation responsible. So I hold entire German nation responsible. Every single German is not wanted in Serbia.

That was my bad, I meant to say Germanophilia...

[Baluarte]

In my experience, Germanophilia in Southern Europe is usually a code for idiocy.

Still, radical Germanophobia is not the answer either.

[Szegedist]

In my experience, Germanophilia in Southern Europe is usually a code for idiocy.

Still, radical Germanophobia is not the answer either.

Many Serb right wingers I came across were all "Milan Nedic strong!!!! "Srpski dobrovoljacki korpus brave Serbian defenders of Europe!!!"

So I am asking, how big % do such people make up of Serbia?


I am asking, because perhaps there is a chance are based on a minority which I perceived to be the majority?
Another post that was not yet addressed
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77567-Serb-Hungarian-liaison-Impossible&p=1678175&viewfull=1#post1678175

[Baluarte]

I really doubt that Dr Nonsense is taken seriously by any political party or movement. That would severely damage their credibility.

[Szegedist]

I really doubt that Dr Nonsense is taken seriously by any political party or movement. That would severely damage their credibility.

It's not about whether he is taken seriously or not. But the fact that many Serbs sound just like him...

[Stefan_Dusan]

Many Serb right wingers I came across were all "Milan Nedic strong!!!! "Srpski dobrovoljacki korpus brave Serbian defenders of Europe!!!"

So I am asking, how big % do such people make up of Serbia?


I am asking, because perhaps there is a chance are based on a minority which I perceived to be the majority?
Another post that was not yet addressed
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77567-Serb-Hungarian-liaison-Impossible&p=1678175&viewfull=1#post1678175

In real life there are no Serbian nationalists who like Germans. Anyone who likes Germans is not nationalist but traitor.

[Szegedist]

In my experience, Germanophilia in Southern Europe is usually a code for idiocy.

Still, radical Germanophobia is not the answer either.

Many German politicians of the past were of a slick and slimy nature.
And by German, I include Austria too.

You must be careful with them, because one time they smile at you, then they turn around and stab you in the back.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Many German politicians of the past were of a slick and slimy nature.
And by German, I include Austria too.

You must be careful with them, because one time they smile at you, then they turn around and stab you in the back.

The British are worst for this. The Germans can be straightforward in their desire to make you colony. See Hitler.

[Baluarte]

The British are worst for this. The Germans can be straightforward in their desire to make you colony. See Hitler.

Palmerston said it quite openly, Britain has no real friendships nor loyalty.

[Szegedist]

The British are worst for this. The Germans can be straightforward in their desire to make you colony. See Hitler.

Hitler and the Nazis for sure are not an example of people who were straightforward. Rather the opposite.

[Baluarte]

On their defence, they never turned against their allies unless they threatened to switch sides, like Italy did in 1943.

[Szegedist]

On their defence, they never turned against their allies unless they threatened to switch sides, like Italy did in 1943.

I believe it would be one of the first things they would have done after the war. Concentrate on the countries whose "services are no longer needed".

[Stefan_Dusan]

Hitler and the Nazis for sure are not an example of people who were straightforward. Rather the opposite.

To the Serbs they were. Support us, allow your country to be used or be destroyed. What Hitler failed to understand was such ultimatums don't go over well with Serbian people.

[Szegedist]

Sadly, our history, and the history of the Germans was by either by bad luck or fate entwined, so we ended up being on the same side in WW1, WW2, and paid a very dear price for that. WW2 especially, which was a very complex and difficult time for us.

[Baluarte]

To the Serbs they were. Support us, allow your country to be used or be destroyed. What Hitler failed to understand was such ultimatums don't go over well with Serbian people.

As a Serb, do you think your government did the right thing to join the Allies?

[gordoservon]

Bánát for example

The military authorities distrusted the Magyars politically and militarily. Therefore they strengthened the area with other populations more reliable, viz. the Germans and Serbs. Magyars were deliberately excluded from the Bánát.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~banatdata/Glogowatz/FrankGerner/Coins.htm

Then there is probably a reason for doing that. And it's not our problem. Serbs stayed forming the Military Frontier, and patroled both Tisa and Danube.


And I dont dispute Srem, it has always been Slavic.

At least we make some kind of progress




Yes and this was a big mistake, the same mistake Western Europe is doing now by letting in immigrant refugees from the Middle East and so on...

So you compare Serbs to middle-eastern arabs and pakis? Now I start to question are you even European or some asian pride type of Hungarian, or are you some kind of a troll.



You are exaggerating. You also confuse between the Serbian nation, and Nobles of Serbian origin loyal to the Hungarian Crown. Ethnicity was not so important in those days.

Serbian nobles and lords, were represents of Serbian people. It meant something to be given a land and free living in exchange for protecting southern borders. Hungarian Kings could have brought in Bulgarians or Greeks or some other, but they didn't, they rely on Serbs, and that meant something. We and Hungary had alliances before, and we weren't like Croatia, to be easily conquered or Bosnia, and Hungary did want to conquer Serbia, but couldn't do so.





Now that is a lie, Jobbik never ever called for such things, or insulted Serbia or Serbs.

Yes they did, they want our territory,as well from Slovakia and Romania. Jobbik is a chauvinist party. If they continue in that manner, they can only bring misfortune for Hungarians living here.
True National-socialist Hungarians despise Jobbik and have respect toward Serbs,Romanians and Slovaks.



I am not a White Nationalist, and I don't care for our so called "White Brothers". Why are you Serbs disrespectful to your white brothers the Albanians and Bosniaks?

You serious? They aren't white. And are not part of european society.
That figures. You are probably a chauvinst or a liberal-democrat, or something in between.
I'm a National-Socialist.






Dont forget, that in the territory we liberated in WW2, Serbs were a small minority. Hungarians were even majority in Backa during the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
And as far as colonization, assimilation goes, please dont be a hypocrite thanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Kosovo

That is the problem with you Serbs, hypocrite. "Vojvodina is ours because we are the majority there, and Kosovo is also ours, even though we are about 5% there".

You were the backstabbers in 1941. The treaty of friendship, and then call someone a hypocrite.
Serbs weren't a small minority but consituted 1/3 of population in Backa. Albanians have terorised Serbs on Kosovo, and many Albanians were colonised in the 19th century. That is why we colonised. And as you see in the link you provided Serbs were killed and savagely murdered by albanians immediatly. After ww2 tito the communist bastard, forbid 300.000 Serbs from returning to Kosovo.

Let me ask you this, and I wont reply anymore since it is pointless to argue on this matter,
you tell me why you consider Vojvodina to be Hungarian, and i'll tell you why both Vojvodina and Kosovo are Serbian?

[Szegedist]

As a Serb, do you think your government did the right thing to join the Allies?

Depends what you mean by "joining the allies".

Situation in Yugoslavia was a lot more complex than that
http://bosniakandjewishfriendship.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/serbian-chetniks-with-nazi-germans-jablanica-1942.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks#Axis_collaboration

[Stefan_Dusan]

As a Serb, do you think your government did the right thing to join the Allies?

We had no choice, we were invaded. Serbs wanted peace (we lost 60% of male population in WW1) but not at expense of our soul. To backstab Greeks and Russians for Germans would be the greatest sin Serbs would ever do and for them to do, that would be the end of Serb nation. I'm more than happy we fought Germans in WW1/WW2.

[Baluarte]

I honestly never understood why Italy had to invade Greece :picard2:

Metaxas was friendly to Germany, and something could have been worked around.

[Szegedist]

So you compare Serbs to middle-eastern arabs and pakis? Now I start to question are you even European or some asian pride type of Hungarian, or are you some kind of a troll.
Why not? I told you, I dont see see things as "white", only as Hungarian, Serbian, Polish, Pakistani , Congolese and so on.






We and Hungary had alliances before, and we weren't like Croatia, to be easily conquered or Bosnia, and Hungary did want to conquer Serbia, but couldn't do so.
Is that why in 1367 Lazar of Serbia recognised the authority of Nagy Lajos over the Serbians?


Yes they did, they want our territory,as well from Slovakia and Romania. Jobbik is a chauvinist party. If they continue in that manner, they can only bring misfortune for Hungarians living here.
1) Jobbik never made chauvinist or insulting remarks against Serbs




True National-socialist Hungarians despise Jobbik and have respect toward Serbs,Romanians and Slovaks.

Hungarian "national socialists" are no different than communist dogs. Thankfully they make up a very small amount of Hungarian nationalists, such traitors are not needed. True Hungarian nationalists are not Nazis.

By the way what the hell is this, Stormfront??




You serious? They aren't white. And are not part of european society.
That figures. You are probably a chauvinst or a liberal-democrat, or something in between.
I'm a National-Socialist.
Is this not chauvinism, talking about your fellow Europeans like this?







Serbs weren't a small minority but consituted 1/3 of population in Backa.
Serbs made up 18%.


Let me ask you this, and I wont reply anymore since it is pointless to argue on this matter,
you tell me why you consider Vojvodina to be Hungarian, and i'll tell you why both Vojvodina and Kosovo are Serbian?
I consider "Vojvodina" to be a part of Hungary because it was the historic part of Saint István's realm, and it was part of Hungary 10th-16th century and 1867 to 1918.
In reality, I do not care about all of Vojvodina, but mostly the Northern parts.

Remember, in 1910 Serbs made up only a 1/3 of Vojvodina, but they got 100% of the territory.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Depends what you mean by "joining the allies".

Situation in Yugoslavia was a lot more complex than that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks#Axis_collaboration

Chetniks have received bad press by people who don't understand history.

To start, there was no unified Chetnik movement. It was just individual groups in the mountains. Some Chetniks fought Germans to the end, some Chetniks fought with Germans, some Chetniks rather focus on collaborators (like Ustashe) since there was no reprisals as result. Chetniks even fought Chetniks. Reason partizans were successful was because they were unified, Chetniks were anything but unified.

But one thing is true, Chetniks were first resistance group against Germans. By end of 1941, due to Chetniks, most of Serbian countryside was not ruled by Germans. German 100-1 policy of retribution was created to suppress Chetnik raids. The disorder Chetniks caused in Serbia allowed partizans to be born. Tito made his base under Mihailovic. Reason that area was already no go for Germans.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1942/1101420525_400.jpg

[Szegedist]

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1942/1101420525_400.jpg



http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1945/1101450205_400.jpg

http://christconquers.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hitler-time-man-of-the-year.jpg

[Stefan_Dusan]

I'm posting Time Cover to show one thing, Chetniks were first resistance group. Not just in Balkans but ALL of occupied Europe. Other resistance groups came later. Time did not gush about Chetniks because they were fighting with Germans but rather against.

There is beautiful story of how Mihailovic beheaded Chetnik collaborator with German. I'll see if I can find it.

[Szegedist]

"gordoservon", before you talk about "Hungarian nationalsocialists" again, I will tell you a little story.


In March 1939, Arrow Cross supporters disrupted a performance at the Budapest opera house by chanting "Justice for Szálasi!" loud enough for the regent to hear. A fight broke out, and when Montgomery ( U.S. ambassador to Hungary ) went to take a closer look, he discovered that two or three men were on the floor and he [Horthy] had another by the throat, slapping his face and shouting what I learned afterward was: "So you would betray your country, would you?" The Regent was alone, but he had the situation in hand.... The whole incident was typical not only of the Regent's deep hatred of alien doctrine, but of the kind of man he is. Although he was around seventy two years of age, it did not occur to him to ask for help; he went right ahead like a skipper with a mutiny on his hands.


True Hungarian nationalists support the traditional conservative doctrine
http://www.mariaorszaga.hu/images/hirek/37841.jpg

perhaps mixed some of the ideas of the likes of Gyula Gömbös.

Not your new age "nationalsocialist" nonsense.

[Baluarte]

I have a positive view of the Arrow Cross Party, they seemed to have nailed each important point of the new world and reversed it:

Austrofascism and Hungarian fascism which was called Hungarism by Ferenc Szálasi – extreme nationalism, the promotion of agriculture, anti-capitalism, anticommunism and militant antisemitism. The party and its leader were originally anti-German, so it was a long and very difficult process for Hitler to compromise with Szálasi and his party

[Szegedist]

I have a positive view of the Arrow Cross Party, they seemed to have nailed each important point of the new world and reversed it:

Austrofascism and Hungarian fascism which was called Hungarism by Ferenc Szálasi – extreme nationalism, the promotion of agriculture, anti-capitalism, anticommunism and militant antisemitism. The party and its leader were originally anti-German, so it was a long and very difficult process for Hitler to compromise with Szálasi and his party

Did you ignore their Turanist beliefs? xD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Turanism#Turanism_and_Hungarian_fascism


Trouble with the Arrow Cross, is that it deviates too much from the traditional order of the country.

[Baluarte]

"In Hungary some fascists (and non-fascists) tried to link the ancestors of the Hungarians to Timur, the Ottomans and Japan," OMFG :picard2:

Why, why, do you guys have this unnecessary thing to proclaim you're brothers of the Asians? o.O!!!
I mean, plenty of European countries have Asian components, but it's not so much as to proclaim brotherhood with random peoples.

Specially the Turkics >.>!!!!

[Szegedist]

"In Hungary some fascists (and non-fascists) tried to link the ancestors of the Hungarians to Timur, the Ottomans and Japan," OMFG :picard2:

Why, why, do you guys have this unnecessary thing to proclaim you're brothers of the Asians? o.O!!!
I mean, plenty of European countries have Asian components, but it's not so much as to proclaim brotherhood with random peoples.

Specially the Turkics >.>!!!!

Because it is the closest to our true origins.

[Baluarte]

Seriously now.

You know pretty well that Hungarians are pretty similar to other Central Europeans in terms of ancestry, and the original Magyars (then reabsorbed by the local populace) were tribes coming from the Ural Mountains, not Central Asia.

[Szegedist]

Balurate, you will never understand.
I already explained it like a million times.

[Baluarte]

Why Magyars have the need to find connections with Central Asian (and apparently even Japan)? Yes, not true as they don't have that origin, and not useful either.

It's not bad at all to accept the arrival from Asia 1100 years ago, but moving to say that Timur and the Ottoman Empire are our brothers is still pointless to me. Why? Why? What do you get of that sort of thing?

[Szegedist]

Why? Why? What do you get of that sort of thing?

For the laughs :laugh:

[Baluarte]

You're certainly doing a good job trolling me if that is the case :mad:

xD

[Szegedist]

Still a fan of the Arrow Cross? They were some of the most radical turanists.

[gordoservon]

Why not? I told you, I dont see see things as "white", only as Hungarian, Serbian, Polish, Pakistani , Congolese and so on.

Then you are not an European nationalist.


Is that why in 1367 Lazar of Serbia recognised the authority of Nagy Lajos over the Serbians?

Lazar was not a King, he was something like a Duke in sence of a title. Lazar accepted authority of Tvrtko, who himself was crowned as a Serbian King. Since you mention Lajos, you forgot that he needed to took enormous army of 80.000 men against our emperor Stephan Dusan, Dusan made 2 breakings in Macva, both the bosnian king allied with Lajos and himself were needed to stop Dusan's advance.
Lajos then made a peace agreement in 1354.



1) Jobbik never made chauvinist or insulting remarks against Serbs

Hungarian "national socialists" are no different than communist dogs. Thankfully they make up a very small amount of Hungarian nationalists, such traitors are not needed. True Hungarian nationalists are not Nazis.

By the way what the hell is this, Stormfront??


If you are not a Hungarian patriot, and a Jobbik supporter, we have nothing more to disscuss.




Is this not chauvinism, talking about your fellow Europeans like this?

They are not Europeans, by no criteria.
Muslim dogs that were left over by the Turks.






Serbs made up 18%.


I consider "Vojvodina" to be a part of Hungary because it was the historic part of Saint István's realm, and it was part of Hungary 10th-16th century and 1867 to 1918.
In reality, I do not care about all of Vojvodina, but mostly the Northern parts.

Remember, in 1910 Serbs made up only a 1/3 of Vojvodina, but they got 100% of the territory.

That 18% had the whole Bac-Bodrog county, which was larger than present Backa.
Anyways, Serbian 18% and German 23% and 44% Hungarian, that is almost 90% of population. So you see we make 1/3 just in Backa after decades of magyarisation.

And in whole Vojvodina 1910 we were the relative majority :
34 % Serbs,
28 % Hungarians,
21 % Germans.

Now I consider Vojvodina to be Serbian for several reasons.

-We have continuity living here for many centuries and settle the lands north of danube long before turks came
-The land was given to us by Hungarian Kingdom to live and govern as free men.
-Jovan Nenad made his empire a model what Vojvodina should be in the future, and it stayed in mind of many Serbs.
-We died defending the borders many times, and our blood was the most spilled.
-We have build our monasteries,buildings and castles all over the plain. Our monuments are everywhere.
-The revolution in 1848, proved our goal and the creation of Serbian Voivodeship, which in the end did not satisfy our people, but the idea lived on until the final liberation.
-And finally we came to the first world war, Hungary as part of Austria, was on the losing side of ww1 and the starter of the war, and you had to compensate with territory ! What did you expect, to invade Serbia, and get with no consequences after??
You are lucky we didn't march straight to Budapest, as the Romanian army did.

And the reason why I don't think Hungarians can claim Vojvodina, is that besides Serbs make almost 70%, you have almost NONE historic heritage, dating offcourse before the 19th century.
One exception is the medieval Bac fortress, and the church of Araca. While we have plenty.
What Kosovo makes ours, is that it is the craddle of our medieval state, our cultural heritage as medieval monasteries and churches. It is part of our identity.
And I can't frankly see what makes Vojvodina a Hungarian identity.
There are maybe some exceptions in north backa I suppose, but I think it's almost irrelevant for the whole region.

[Szegedist]

Then you are not an European nationalist.
No, I am Hungarian nationalist.
Save your "your race is your nation" for Stormfront please.




If you are not a Hungarian patriot, and a Jobbik supporter, we have nothing more to disscuss.

I am a Hungarian patriot.
"national socialist" =/= patriot


They are not Europeans, by no criteria. Muslim dogs that were left over by the Turks.

In other words, you are a chauvinist agianst your neigbours.








That 18% had the whole Bac-Bodrog county, which was larger than present Backa.

No, 18% in YUGOSLAV Bácska.



And in whole Vojvodina 1910 we were the relative majority :
34 % Serbs,
28 % Hungarians,
21 % Germans.
Serbs made only a THIRD of the population, but got 100% of it what is difficult to understand? And if you want to speak demographics, worry more about 95% Albanian majority in Kosova.




The land was given to us by Hungarian Kingdom to live and govern as free men..
Wrong, you took advantage of Hungarian hospitality, no different than mutineers.


-And finally we came to the first world war, Hungary as part of Austria, was on the losing side of ww1 and the starter of the war, and you had to compensate with territory ! What did you expect, to invade Serbia, and get with no consequences after??
Hungary was against the war. Serbia is partially to blame for the war, as are all other states with territorial ambitions. Hungary was the only one who had no territorial ambitions.



You are lucky we didn't march straight to Budapest, as the Romanian army did.
You are lucky you had Western allies win the war for you while your soldiers were sunbathing on Corfu.
As for the Romanians,, together with other opportunist Little Entente stateless, while you were propped up by the Entente, they attacked us after we disarmed, we had no army then.



What Kosovo makes ours, is that it is the craddle of our medieval state, our cultural heritage as medieval monasteries and churches. It is part of our identity.

Nonsense, Kosovo was not even part of the Serbian state when it was created, and only annexed into Serbia much later. You only ruled the region for a mere 250 years•

[gordoservon]

You speak such ridiculuos lies and nonsense, that I don't care to prove or dissaprove.
I've shoved you arguments, you talk bullcrap with no cover, have a good night ;)

[Szegedist]

You speak such ridiculuos lies and nonsense, that I don't care to prove or dissaprove.
I've shoved you arguments, you talk bullcrap with no cover, have a good night ;)

Off course, I tell bullcrap, you speak truth like good cetnik, right? :))))

[gordoservon]

Off course, I tell bullcrap, you speak truth like good cetnik, right? :))))

Yes. Seselj is my mentor.

[Szegedist]

Yes. Seselj is my mentor.
Find a new mentor because your one has not yet talked his way out of the Hague :laugh:

Anyway, distant past is past
1910
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Vojvodina_-_Jezicki_sastav_po_naseljima_1910.gif

Religios map in 1910
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Vojvodina_-_Verski_sastav_po_naseljima_1910.gif

Today~ give or take some changes since the latest 2011 census
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Vojvodina_-_Etnicki_sastav_po_naseljima_2002_1.gif

[Szegedist]

I will give a small example

History of "Zrenjanin"

Name
The city was named after Žarko Zrenjanin Uča (1902–1942) in honour and remembrance of his name in 1946. He was one of the leaders of the Vojvodinian Communists and Partisans. During World War II, he was imprisoned and released after being tortured by the Nazis for months. Later he was killed while trying to escape from being recaptured. The former Serbian name of the city was Bečkerek (Бечкерек) or Veliki Bečkerek (Велики Бечкерек). In 1935 the city was renamed to Petrovgrad (Петровград) in honor of king Peter I of Serbia. It was called Petrovgrad from 1935 to 1946.

The Ottoman army that conquered Bečkerek was led by Mehmed-paša Sokolović, an Ottoman statesman of Serb origin, hence the local Serbs from Bečkerek helped him to conquer the town. After the town fell, Mehmed-paša met with the leaders of local Serbs, and nominated beg Malković for administrator of Bečkerek. As a gratitude to Serbs for their help, Mehmed-paša later (in 1570) turned the town into his vakuf (foundation), built there many beautiful buildings, and granted local autonomy to it. During the Ottoman rule, the town of Bečkerek was divided into two parts (mahalas) - one Serb and another Muslim and was sanjak centre in Province of Temeşvar.

Here is your Mehmed-paša Sokolović, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Sokullupasa.jpg

[Szegedist]

We are not even interested in the whole of "Vojvodina", but something needs to be done about this part:

34927

Does this look more Balkan or Central European?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Szabadka_1.jpg

[Szegedist]

But Balurate, I will just say this to you, our issues with Serbs are far lower on the list of priority than with Romania and Slovakia.
Transylvania by far is the territorial loss that hurts the most, from a historic, cultural, national point of view. At one point it was the cradle of our culture and nation during difficult times. Vojvodina never had such status, and I admit that our claims on it are more sketchy than other lands.

So there is some hope after all, but for sure its wont be one sided. Territorial autonomy to North Vojvodina ala South Tyrol.

[Baluarte]

But Balurate, I will just say this to you, our issues with Serbs are far lower on the list of priority than with Romania and Slovakia.
Transylvania by far is the territorial loss that hurts the most, from a historic, cultural, national point of view. At one point it was the cradle of our culture and nation during difficult times. Vojvodina never had such status, and I admit that our claims on it are more sketchy than other lands.

So there is some hope after all, but for sure its wont be one sided. Territorial autonomy to North Vojvodina ala South Tyrol.


:D Yeeeessssss, some shred of hope of mending things :whoo::whoo:

This deserves the special song:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1YKC8cNXR8

[Szegedist]

Budapest welcomes Serb condemnation of WWII violence against ethnic Hungarians


The Hungarian Foreign Ministry welcomes the adoption of a declaration by the Serbian parliament that condemns the acts committed against Hungarian civilians in Vojvodina in 1944-45, the ministry said in a statement on Saturday.

The declaration is an important step in the dialogue Hungarian President Janos Ader and his Serbian counterpart Tomislav Nikolic opened at their talks in November of last year, the ministry said.

The declaration also gives hope for a joint commemoration of the victims of Vojvodina, it said.

The Hungarian and Serbian presidents agreed at the talks in Budapest to hold such a joint commemoration.

[Baluarte]

It's interesting to see how overwhelming the vote was:

------------------------------------------------------------------

Declaration condemning acts against Hungarian civilians

BELGRADE - Members of the Serbian parliament adopted Friday a Declaration condemning acts against Hungarian civilians in Vojvodina, committed during the Second World War, in 1944 and 1945.

A total of 128 MPs voted in favor of the document, 10 were against, and seven did not vote. The declaration was put forward by MPs of the Serbian Progressive Party (SNS) and the Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians (SVM).

Deputies of the opposition Democratic Party (DP) and the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) voted in favor of the declaration, and the Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) was against it.

The declaration was also supported by two members of the League of Social Democrats of Vojvodina (LSV). Two MPs from the same party were against it.

The declaration states that the Serbian parliament sharply condemns the acts committed against the Hungarian civilian population in Vojvodina during the 1944/45 period, when members of the national minority in Serbia were being killed, denied their freedom and other rights, on ethnic grounds and in the absence of any court or administrative decisions.

Giving the reasons for passing the declaration, the Serbian parliament said that Serbia must provide some moral satisfaction for the injustice that was done to the citizens of Hungarian nationality in the municipalities of Curug, Mosorin and Zabalj through decisions based on the principle of collective responsibility that declared all citizens of Hungarian nationality in these municipalities war criminals.

An amendment, proposed by the DS, denouncing the suffering of all the other innocent victims on the territory of Vojvodina during and after the Second World War, was also adopted.

The Serbian parliament said that the declaration is aimed at the full rehabilitation of all those who were innocent and got killed or convicted without court decisions.

At the same time, all state bodies and citizens are invited to make a full contribution to creating and strengthening the conditions for living together, based on the principles of equality of citizens and full respect for human and minority rights and freedoms.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent news :thumb001:

[Baluarte]

Hungary's president apologizes to Serbia for WW2 crimes

Hungarian President János Áder on Wednesday apologized in Belgrade for crimes Hungarians committed against Serbs during World War II and asked for forgiveness for those crimes, underscoring that mutual forgiveness and apologies can strengthen trust between Serbs and Hungarians.

"As president of Hungary, I ask for your forgiveness for the crimes which were committed in the name of Hungary by Hungarians against innocent Serbs during World War II," Áder said speaking to lawmakers at a session of the Serbian parliament.

Áder who is on an official visit to Serbia, pointed out that a free, democratic Hungary condemns those who acted against innocent Serbs and heightened their suffering.

The Hungarian president recalled a statement by Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic during his recent visit to Budapest when he said that the two countries had turned a new page in their relations and left any misunderstandings behind them and that the time had come for mutual apologies as that was vital to remove the burdens of the past for future generations.

Áder said that the crimes committed could not be wiped away but mutual forgiveness and a mutual apology could strengthen trust between Serbia and Hungary who do not wish merely to live side by side but jointly in the community of nations in central Europe.

The Hungarian President at the same time assessed that the Declaration condemning acts against the civilian Hungarian population in the northern Serbian province of Vojvodina during 1944 and 1945 that the Serbian parliament adopted last week, represented an important historical step which after seven decades had not only put an end to a chapter of their shared history but has also created a new chance to develop relations between the two nations and two countries.

Hungary's president who is currently on a return visit to Serbia told his hosts that on the path to the European Union, Serbia could count on Hungary as a friend and partner ready to share its European experiences, Hina news agency reported.




http://www.bbj.hu/politics/hungarys-president-apologizes-to-serbia-for-ww2-crimes_66477

[Gorštak]

This is first time that I hear that Hungarians made war crimes against Serbs in WW2.
What happened?

[Stefan_Dusan]

This is first time that I hear that Hungarians made war crimes against Serbs in WW2.
What happened?

Hungarians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Croatians, Muslim Bosnians, Germans, and Italians committed crimes against Serbians. Hitler was angry at us being defiant. He tried to destroy the Serbian nation and encouraged neighbors to implement their fantasy on Serb nation.

[Gorštak]

Hungarians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Croatians, Muslim Bosnians, Germans, and Italians committed crimes against Serbians. Hitler was angry at us being defiant. He tried to destroy the Serbian nation and encouraged neighbors to implement their fantasy on Serb nation.
lol Chetniks killed 10 times more Bosniaks than Bosniaks killed Serbs. Bat back to topic.

[Stefan_Dusan]

lol Chetniks killed 10 times more Bosniaks than Bosniaks killed Serbs. Bat back to topic.

Chetniks were killing Bosnian Muslims when they found out about Bosnian Muslim crimes against Serbs in the region. The first people killed by Chetniks were Germans. And Chetniks initially started in Serbia were almost no Muslim existed.

[Szegedist]

This is first time that I hear that Hungarians made war crimes against Serbs in WW2.
What happened?

Basically, it started out as an anti-Partisan raid, and about 3 thousand civilians died, mostly Serbs and Jews.

The ones responsible for it, were charged by the Hungarian government in 1943, by the Horthy regime, not some communist kangaroo court.

[Szegedist]

Hungarians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Croatians, Muslim Bosnians, Germans, and Italians committed crimes against Serbians. Hitler was angry at us being defiant. He tried to destroy the Serbian nation and encouraged neighbors to implement their fantasy on Serb nation.

Please, enough of your "Serbia stronk!!!" sob stories.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Please, enough of your "Serbia stronk!!!" sob stories.

Hitler had nothing to do with it. In fact some Vojvodina Germans were shot by Hungarian troops too, and Hitler personally heard of the case and got angry about it.

Hitler had everything to do with it. He gave you Vojvodina after all. You're lucky that Magyars still live in Vojvodina.

[Szegedist]

Hitler had everything to do with it. He gave you Vojvodina after all. You're lucky that Magyars still live in Vojvodina.

And who gave Vojvodina to Serbs in the first place? Your American and British buddies. But now that with the whole Kosovo thing, you took their d..ks of of your mouth, right?

It is Serbs who should be lucky that they were not punished by the Hungarian Revolutionary Army for mutiny.

[Stefan_Dusan]

And who gave Vojvodina to Serbs in the first place? Your American and British buddies. But now that with the whole Kosovo thing, you took their d..ks of of your mouth, right?

It is Serbs who should be lucky that they were not punished by the Hungarian Revolutionary Army for mutiny.

A-H lost WW1. You invaded Serbia and were repulsed. The combined strength of Austria, Hungary and slavic populations could not take Serbia without German and Bulgarian assistance. You lost Vojvodina as soon as the empire tried to incorporate B-H.

It's you that thread on careful waters. Why you did not send planes to bomb in 1999 because your precious minority can be easily killed. We killed all the Germans after WW2, we did not think to do for Magyars because you were flea on Hitler's ass.

[Szegedist]

A-H lost WW1. You invaded Serbia and were repulsed. The combined strength of Austria, Hungary and slavic populations could not take Serbia without German and Bulgarian assistance. You lost Vojvodina as soon as the empire tried to incorporate B-H.
1) We did not invade Serbia, Hungary was one of the few countries to be against the war.
2) The war was won on the Western Front, be lucky that you have American and British allies. You should be thankful to them that Serbia is now as big as it is, instead of Beogradski Pashaluk as it was before.
3) By same logic you lost Vojvodina in 1941


It's you that thread on careful waters. Why you did not send planes to bomb in 1999 because your precious minority can be easily killed. We killed all the Germans after WW2, we did not think to do for Magyars because you were flea on Hitler's ass.
Hilarious coming from the brave Kosovo Serb who is hiding out in the USA, the country that is pretty much behind NATO. Try again tough guy. Your BS stories dont impress anyone, because we both know that you will rot and die in America.

[Stefan_Dusan]

2) The war was won on the Western Front, be lucky that you have American and British allies. You should be thankful to them that Serbia is now as big as it is, instead of Beogradski Pashaluk as it was before.

Beogradski Pashaluk was beginning. Doesn't change that if war was just between A-H and Serbia, A-H lost. A-H needed Germany and Bulgaria to step in after she disgraced herself.


3) By same logic you lost Vojvodina in 1941

And regained it 1945.


Hilarious coming from the brave Kosovo Serb who is hiding out in the USA, the country that is pretty much behind NATO. Try again tough guy. Your BS stories dont impress anyone, because we both know that you will rot and die in America.

I'm brave enough to say my things with my name, address, and picture. I say very controversial sentiments that easily lead people into trouble. You do not say controversial things but yet are not brave enough to post either picture, name, or address.

[Szegedist]

Beogradski Pashaluk was beginning. Doesn't change that if war was just between A-H and Serbia, A-H lost. A-H needed Germany and Bulgaria to step in after she disgraced herself.
And Serbs needed to escape to Corfu..

Anyway, do not talk about things that you do not understand or dont know anything about.



And regained it 1945.

Serbia did? Or Yugoslav partisans?



I'm brave enough to say my things with my name, address, and picture. I say very controversial sentiments that easily lead people into trouble. You do not say controversial things but yet are not brave enough to post either picture, name, or address.
So go and be brave in Kosovo, instead of posting on the internet and trying to act like some tough guy. Your name, address and picture? Now that is debatable.

[Stefan_Dusan]

And Serbs needed to escape to Corfu..

After Germans, Bulgarians, and what was left of A-H attacked tiny little Serbia from all sides. Doesn't change without Germany or Bulgaria, A-H lost against tiny Serbia. Lost so decisively by herself.


Serbia did? Or Yugoslav partisans?

More specific, Serbian partizans.


So go and be brave in Kosovo, instead of posting on the internet and trying to act like some tough guy. Your name, address and picture? Now that is debatable.

I go this August 2nd.

As for my name, address, you can debate. I started thread here http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84843-Classify-Stefan-Dusan

It has links to pictures for classification but also link to email from 23andMe that includes name and address (as well as arrest report with my name on it, different picture). I got my kit today will send tomorrow. So debate away.

[Stears]

After Germans, Bulgarians, and what was left of A-H attacked tiny little Serbia from all sides. Doesn't change without Germany or Bulgaria, A-H lost against tiny Serbia. Lost so decisively by herself.



More specific, Serbian partizans.



I go this August 2nd.

As for my name, address, you can debate. I started thread here http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84843-Classify-Stefan-Dusan

It has links to pictures for classification but also link to email from 23andMe that includes name and address (as well as arrest report with my name on it, different picture). I got my kit today will send tomorrow. So debate away.

Remember the eastern Entente powers were in numerical superiority in Eastern front too: (Russia Serbia Romania Greece.) and in the western front: United Kingdom France Italy USA. Despite the numerical superiority the entente wouldn't became the winner without enormous American economic monetary and industrial help. Moreover the eastern front collapsed.

Serbs Romanians Russians lost the war. Romanian Serbian etc... forces reorganized after the internal dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. (they were armed by French weapons, because they had no industry to produce own weapons.)

Romanian and Serbian fronts could sustain themselves only a year.

[(s)AINT]

Serbia is still a country? lol

[Szegedist]

Serbia is still a country? lol

Yes it is

[Stefan_Dusan]

Remember the eastern Entente powers were in numerical superiority in Eastern front too: (Russia Serbia Romania Greece.) and in the western front: United Kingdom France Italy USA.

USA did not get involved until end of war. I'm talking early battles which were exclusively between Austrian-Hungarian empire and Serbia. Austrian-Hungarian empire tried to make do of their ultimatum and they were completely humiliated and pushed back. This is without any outside assistance to Serbia. The humiliation was so great that Germany and Bulgaria had to help out Austria-Hungary the following year to take small Serbia.

Famous song:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq__lWp95i8

[Stefan_Dusan]

This is modern song but there is audio from actual decisive battle against Austrians. Good line:

You don't have anything to fear for your lives, because they don't exist (=you're already dead).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-brQbeW5Ug&list=PL5D73B95FA89D84F4

[Stears]

Wrong, US entered the WW1 in economic sense from the very beginnings. Only the military and diplomatic hostility started at the end of the war.

[Stears]

Serbia could hold on only 1 Year, Serbian was one of the shortest frontline. Serbs could fight well in towns fortifications and high mountains (partizan like warfare), (and serbia is very hilly mountainous country) but in the bigger plains, face-to face they have always defeated quickly.

[RandoBloom]

Serbs defeated Austrians by leting them capture their capital and then retreat their entire army to another country until end of the war. What a glorious victory, surely unmatched in human history.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Wrong, US entered the WW1 in economic sense from the very beginnings. Only the military and diplomatic hostility started at the end of the war.

None of this concerns Serbia vs A-H at the beginning of WW1. If you want to pretend any American aid in 1914, you can believe it. But it's not true.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Serbs defeated Austrians by leting them capture their capital and then retreat their entire army to another country until end of the war. What a glorious victory, surely unmatched in human history.

Serbs defeated the Austrians back into Austria-Hungarian empire.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The first phase of the war against Serbia had ended with no change in the border, but casualties were enormous compared to earlier wars, though sadly, not out of keeping with other campaigns of this war. The Serbian army suffered 170,000 men killed, wounded, captured or missing. Austro-Hungarian losses were approaching 215,000 men killed, wounded or missing. Austro-Hungarian General Potiorek was removed from command and replaced by Archduke Eugen of Austria (C. Falls p. 54). On the Serbian side, a deadly typhus epidemic killed hundreds of thousands of Serb civilians during the winter.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Campaign_(World_War_I)

The second phase was Germany + Bulgaria + A-H against Serbia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Serbia could hold on only 1 Year, Serbian was one of the shortest frontline. Serbs could fight well in towns fortifications and high mountains (partizan like warfare), (and serbia is very hilly mountainous country) but in the bigger plains, face-to face they have always defeated quickly.

If it was just A-H versus Serbia, Serbia would have held out indefinitely in the war. In the Battle of Kolubara the Serbs drove back Austrians across the original borders despite Austrian troops outnumbering Serbs 2 to 1. Now you can think how many Bosnian Muslims (you Hrulj) and Hungarians, Serbs killed beating this drive back.

[(s)AINT]

Serbs defeated the Austrians back into Austria-Hungarian empire.

lol as if your did it alone. Say thank you to England like a good boy.

[Stefan_Dusan]

lol as if your did it alone. Say thank you to England like a good boy.

England did so much as fire a gun at A-H in 1914. We fought them alone and we won. You're just jealous for some reason. What's your blood?

[Stears]

England did so much as fire a gun at A-H in 1914. We fought them alone and we won. You're just jealous for some reason. What's your blood?

Serbia lost the WW1. It is historic fact. The refuge Serbian army returned from island of CORFU after the A-H Empire dissolved.

[Gorštak]

If it was just A-H versus Serbia, Serbia would have held out indefinitely in the war. In the Battle of Kolubara the Serbs drove back Austrians across the original borders despite Austrian troops outnumbering Serbs 2 to 1. Now you can think how many Bosnian Muslims (you Hrulj) and Hungarians, Serbs killed beating this drive back.
I don't know about Bosniaks role in battle of Kolubara, but in battle on mountain Prostruga where Bosniaks faced Serbs you had more than 400 death Serb soldiers and losed that battle. But I must admit that Serbs were fiercely fought there, especially when we both know that Bosniaks regiments were consider as best part of k.u.k. army.

[RandoBloom]

Serbs defeated the Austrians back into Austria-Hungarian empire.

Are you sure brittish invasion and push doesnt have anything to do with it? Or did you fire your guns from corfu island all over Albania, Montenegro, Sandjak, into Serbia, killing all AU soldiers from 500 kilometers away and then moving in and capturing Austria?

[RandoBloom]

If it was just A-H versus Serbia, Serbia would have held out indefinitely in the war. In the Battle of Kolubara the Serbs drove back Austrians across the original borders despite Austrian troops outnumbering Serbs 2 to 1. Now you can think how many Bosnian Muslims (you Hrulj) and Hungarians, Serbs killed beating this drive back.

How many brittish held of how many Germans in the battle of Marne?
Trench warfare does that, and 10 to 1 odds can only ensure a chance of victory. Go learn about trench warfare. As for that Bosniaks fought mostly on Italian front. But if you want, look up Knight Glogovac, who single handledly captured a hill from the Serbs.

[Stears]

As far as I know , Austria-Hungary occupied whole territory of Serbia, and the Serbian army fled to Corfu by the help of entente navy.
After the Serbian fled to Corfu, there were no battles between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. (you confused the Bulgarian front with Austria-Hungary) Than the Austro-Hungarian Empire dissolved, and its soldiers returned to home, long before the Franco-Serbian army arrived. So the Serbian army didn't reoccupied Serbia, they just arrived to a military evacuated/demilitarized Serbia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

As far as I know , Austria-Hungary occupied whole territory of Serbia, and the Serbian army fled to Corfu by the help of entente navy.
After the Serbian fled to Corfu, there were no battles between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. (you confused Bulgaria with Austria-Hungary) Than the Austro-Hungarian Empire dissolved, and its soldiers returned to home, long before the Franco-Serbian army arrived. So the Serbians didn't reoccupied Serbia, they arrived to a military evacuated Serbia.

You know wrong. Austria did not occupy Serbia, see:


The first phase of the war against Serbia had ended with no change in the border, but casualties were enormous compared to earlier wars, though sadly, not out of keeping with other campaigns of this war. The Serbian army suffered 170,000 men killed, wounded, captured or missing. Austro-Hungarian losses were approaching 215,000 men killed, wounded or missing. Austro-Hungarian General Potiorek was removed from command and replaced by Archduke Eugen of Austria (C. Falls p. 54). On the Serbian side, a deadly typhus epidemic killed hundreds of thousands of Serb civilians during the winter.

Serbia was left alone for almost 1 year afterwards. Germany then took charge of campaign, and with Bulgars and demoralized A-H re-invaded Serbia at end of 1915.


German Chief of the General Staff Erich von Falkenhayn tried to convince the Austro-Hungarian Chief of Staff, Conrad von Hötzendorf, of the importance of conquering Serbia. If Serbia were taken, then the Germans would have a rail link from Germany, through Austria-Hungary and down to Istanbul (and beyond). This would allow the Germans to send military supplies and even troops to help the Ottoman Empire. While this was hardly in Austria-Hungary's interests, the Austro-Hungarians did want to defeat Serbia. However, Russia was the more dangerous enemy, and furthermore, with the entry of Italy into the war on the Allied side, the Austro-Hungarians had their hands full (see the Italian Campaign (World War I)).
Both the Allies and the Central Powers tried to get Bulgaria to pick a side in the Great War. Bulgaria and Serbia had fought two wars in the last 30 years: the Serbo-Bulgarian War in 1885, and the Second Balkan War in 1913. The result was that the Bulgarian government and people felt that Serbia was in possession of lands to which Bulgaria was entitled, and when the Central Powers offered to give them what they claimed, the Bulgarians entered the war on their side. With the Allied loss in the Battle of Gallipoli and the Russian defeat at Gorlice, King Ferdinand signed a treaty with Germany and on September 23, 1915 and Bulgaria began mobilizing for war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Campaign_(World_War_I)

[Stefan_Dusan]

How many brittish held of how many Germans in the battle of Marne?
Trench warfare does that, and 10 to 1 odds can only ensure a chance of victory. Go learn about trench warfare. As for that Bosniaks fought mostly on Italian front. But if you want, look up Knight Glogovac, who single handledly captured a hill from the Serbs.

There are no links to this "Glogovac" capturing hill. It's probably some small obscure history you Bosnians hold on. But Glogovac is a Serbian name, there is even a village in Kosovo with that name. While endings in ic or vic can be any south slav, I know that an ending in ogovac is Serb like night and day. My own surname is Progovac.

In battle of Marne it was 1.1 million French/British versus 1.5 million Germans. Serbs were 2.5 hundred thousand and A-H was 5 hundred thousand. The odds were bigger in A-H favor

[Stefan_Dusan]

I don't know about Bosniaks role in battle of Kolubara, but in battle on mountain Prostruga where Bosniaks faced Serbs you had more than 400 death Serb soldiers and losed that battle. But I must admit that Serbs were fiercely fought there, especially when we both know that Bosniaks regiments were consider as best part of k.u.k. army.

There are no links to this battle, must have been small and not important (only 400 dead indicates). Here is link to battle of Kolubara:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolubara


The Battle of Kolubara (3–9 December 1914) was a major victory for Serbia over the Austro-Hungarian armies during World War I.[1] The Austro-Hungarian armies were routed, and driven back across the Serbian border.[3]

[RandoBloom]

There are no links to this "Glogovac" capturing hill. It's probably some small obscure history you Bosnians hold on. But Glogovac is a Serbian name, there is even a village in Kosovo with that name. While endings in ic or vic can be any south slav, I know that an ending in ogovac is Serb like night and day. My own surname is Progovac.

In battle of Marne it was 1.1 million French/British versus 1.5 million Germans. Serbs were 2.5 hundred thousand and A-H was 5 hundred thousand. The odds were bigger in A-H favor


There were more germans than that at marne but nevermind
The man from obscure history is:

http://webpages.milwpc.com/phgulgow/The%20Courtly%20Lives%20-%20Gulgowski%203.files/GojkomirGlogova0001.jpg

Hauptmann Gojkomir Glogovac, was perhaps the premier Bosniak soldier in the k.u.k. Armee. He was nicknamed "the machine gun" for his special technique of using this gun to the fullest and most brutal effect. Glogovac represented the interests of the unique soldiery to the General Staff, which made accomodations for these fighters in World War I. Bosnian regiments were broken down religiously with Catholic, Orthodox, and Mohammedan units.

[Stears]

Map of Europe 1917

History of war.org

http://www.historyofwar.org/Maps/ww1_i_greecein.gif

Western Michigan University.
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~hega/PSCI340/images/map19.jpg


Where is Serbia?

[Stears]

Serbs proved unable to hold their frontlines in greater PLAIN territories. They were good in towns and hills mountains (guerilla tactics and sneaky tactics) , but they were not good in plains, where they had to fight face-to-face with the enemy.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Map of Europe 1917

History of war.org

http://www.historyofwar.org/Maps/ww1_i_greecein.gif

Western Michigan University.
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~hega/PSCI340/images/map19.jpg


Where is Serbia?

You said A-H captured Serbia, that is not true:


Against Serbia were marshalled the Bulgarian First Army, the German Eleventh Army and the Austro-Hungarian Third Army, all under the command of Field Marshal Mackensen. In addition the Bulgarian Second Army, which remained under the direct control of the Bulgarian high command, was deployed against Macedonia.

It was furthermore directly organized by Germans. Austria-Hungary had chance to take Serbia themself in 1914 and they failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Campaign_(World_War_I)

So they needed Germans and Bulgarian allies to help them by end of 1915. By 1917 Serbia (+French) began liberating southern Serbia and Macedonia. In the end Serbia won the war and got Vojvodina as well as much of A-H former land.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Serbs proved unable to hold their frontlines in greater PLAIN territories. They were good in towns and hills mountains (guerilla tactics and sneaky tactics) , but they were not good in plains, where they had to fight face-to-face with the enemy.

You keep saying stupidity. If that is true why did A-H fail to take Serbia in 1914? Why did they get pushed back into their borders? Why did Germany need to organize invasion and Bulgaria to help out?

[Szegedist]

The problem with the Austro-Hungarian army is that many soldiers (from many ethnicities) were not willing to fight in the name of the empire, no motivation. There were a lot of deserters, especially among Slavs who even formed legions made up deserters to fight against Austria-Hungary.

[Stefan_Dusan]

There were more germans than that at marne but nevermind
The man from obscure history is:

http://webpages.milwpc.com/phgulgow/The%20Courtly%20Lives%20-%20Gulgowski%203.files/GojkomirGlogova0001.jpg

Hauptmann Gojkomir Glogovac, was perhaps the premier Bosniak soldier in the k.u.k. Armee. He was nicknamed "the machine gun" for his special technique of using this gun to the fullest and most brutal effect. Glogovac represented the interests of the unique soldiery to the General Staff, which made accomodations for these fighters in World War I. Bosnian regiments were broken down religiously with Catholic, Orthodox, and Mohammedan units.

I put his name in google, one website takes me to the above information. The other takes me back to apricity. Yes, this man is obscure. Perhaps point to me unbiased historical website on his accomplishments. I always enjoy reading about Serbs, even brainwashed ones (Glogovac is a Serbian name as day and night).

[RandoBloom]

You said A-H captured Serbia, that is not true:



It was furthermore directly organized by Germans. Austria-Hungary had chance to take Serbia themself in 1914 and they failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Campaign_(World_War_I)

So they needed Germans and Bulgarian allies to help them by end of 1915. By 1917 Serbia (+French) began liberating southern Serbia and Macedonia. In the end Serbia won the war and got Vojvodina as well as much of A-H former land.


That is called organized warfare. First a raid to see how far they can push. Obviously quite far since they captured your bloody capital.
And then the main attack.

[Stears]

Because your Russian ally saved your ass. Just Imagine the Autro-Hungarian - Serbian war without Russian war-declaration.....


The serbians had the worst military death ratio between the WW1 countries. (and you run out of men quickly)

[Stefan_Dusan]

That is called organized warfare. First a raid to see how far they can push. Obviously quite far since they captured your bloody capital.
And then the main attack.

Lol that's why Austria sacked Potiorek and Germans specifically congratulated the Serbs. Is that why A-H lost more men than Serbs? Or is this more stupidity on your part.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Because your Russian ally saved your ass. Just Imagine the Autro-Hungarian - Serbian war without Russian war-declaration.....

Germany made sure to then declare war on Russia. You weren't alone. The troops you sent into Serbia were double what Serbs had and better equipped and still lost. Then you needed Germany to organize and Bulgarians to take such small country.

[RandoBloom]

I put his name in google, one website takes me to the above information. The other takes me back to apricity. Yes, this man is obscure. Perhaps point to me unbiased historical website on his accomplishments. I always enjoy reading about Serbs, even brainwashed ones (Glogovac is a Serbian name as day and night).

Actualy he is Bosniak - catholic
So I guess you would clasify him as Croat?
As for him there are plenty of books about Bosniak soldiers in WW1, with a loot of info about him. Dont know what search engine you are using :)
But here you go for start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian-Herzegovinian_Infantry

http://www.militaria.at/images/633928849817157500_book.jpg

http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc341/gigoloamerikana/WWI/bosniakengegendierussen3ao.jpg

[RandoBloom]

Lol that's why Austria sacked Potiorek and Germans specifically congratulated the Serbs. Is that why A-H lost more men than Serbs? Or is this more stupidity on your part.


Obviously you know nothing about warfare. How many men did allies lose in WW2 in raids on mainland europe?
All to prepare for invasion.
If you stoped them they wouldnt take your capital. The end. Like we stoped you even though you were the 4. military force in europe.

[Szegedist]

1) Hungary was one of the few countries who were opposed to the war, and wanted to resolve it diplomatically.
2) Hungary also had no territorial ambitions at all in WW1, unlike Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria and pretty much all other countries that fought in WW1 in Europe.
3) Hungary received the harshest punishment after WW1.

[RandoBloom]

Germany made sure to then declare war on Russia. You weren't alone. The troops you sent into Serbia were double what Serbs had and better equipped and still lost. Then you needed Germany to organize and Bulgarians to take such small country.

If they lost they wouldnt
a - take your country
b - capture your capital

[Stefan_Dusan]

Actualy he is Bosniak - catholic
So I guess you would clasify him as Croat?
As for him there are plenty of books about Bosniak soldiers in WW1, with a loot of info about him. Dont know what search engine you are using :)
But here you go for start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian-Herzegovinian_Infantry

http://www.militaria.at/images/633928849817157500_book.jpg

http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc341/gigoloamerikana/WWI/bosniakengegendierussen3ao.jpg

No a Catholic Serb. Bosniak is a name of a river not a people. No Croat has the name Glogovac which is even a village in Kosovo, farther than any Croat has been.

Your link shows him awarded for bravery but no mention why. Second is just picture.

[Stefan_Dusan]

If they lost they wouldnt
a - take your country
b - capture your capital

They didn't take it. Germans took it and gave it to them. Bulgarians took southern part.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Obviously you know nothing about warfare. How many men did allies lose in WW2 in raids on mainland europe?
All to prepare for invasion.
If you stoped them they wouldnt take your capital. The end. Like we stoped you even though you were the 4. military force in europe.

The number 4th military force in Europe was JNA - Yugoslav National Army which did not exist after mass people deserting. You could not stop some Bosnian Serb rebels and you again only became famous to outside world when these rebels killed you so well.

Austria was completely repulsed out of Serbia. They did not take a blade of grass.

[RandoBloom]

No a Catholic Serb. Bosniak is a name of a river not a people. No Croat has the name Glogovac which is even a village in Kosovo, farther than any Croat has been.

Your link shows him awarded for bravery but no mention why. Second is just picture.


And I have a penis so you must be a Bosniak
Your logic is...... questionable.
As for people we have:

Izvorno ime Bošnjanin (u latinskim vrelima sing. Bosnensis) prvobitno označava pripadnika srednjovjekovnog bosanskog teritorija, kasnije države. Prva zabilježena upotreba riječi Bošnjak desila se 1440. godine kada je Tvrtko II Kotromanić poslao bosansku delegaciju u Budim radi čestitanja poljskom kralju Vladislavu Varnenčiku na izboru za kralja Ugarske i Hrvatske. Tada je vođa bosanske delegacije rekao da su: "Bošnjakom isti pradjedovi bili kao i Poljakom". [2]

Bosnia and its people take name from Illyrian roots. And you envy us for that :)

[RandoBloom]

The number 4th military force in Europe was JNA - Yugoslav National Army which did not exist after mass people deserting. You could not stop some Bosnian Serb rebels and you again only became famous to outside world when these rebels killed you so well.

Austria was completely repulsed out of Serbia. They did not take a blade of grass.


Rebels had weapons of JNA at their disposal as well as ammo. All we had was weapons embargo against us by the world. And we survived, defended and defeated you :)
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7014723072/h93BDA578/

[Stefan_Dusan]

Rebels had weapons of JNA at their disposal as well as ammo. All we had was weapons embargo against us by the world. And we survived, defended and defeated you :)
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7014723072/h93BDA578/

You keep saying stupidity but Germany and then America armed you through Croatia. You only survived because West put pressure on Milosevic to abandon supplying Croatian and Bosnian Serb rebels but Bosnian Serbs hold 50% of the land, how is this defeat? I thought you Bosnians cry about this all the time, why they get 50% of land through ethnic cleansing etc

[Stefan_Dusan]

And I have a penis so you must be a Bosniak
Your logic is...... questionable.
As for people we have:

Izvorno ime Bošnjanin (u latinskim vrelima sing. Bosnensis) prvobitno označava pripadnika srednjovjekovnog bosanskog teritorija, kasnije države. Prva zabilježena upotreba riječi Bošnjak desila se 1440. godine kada je Tvrtko II Kotromanić poslao bosansku delegaciju u Budim radi čestitanja poljskom kralju Vladislavu Varnenčiku na izboru za kralja Ugarske i Hrvatske. Tada je vođa bosanske delegacije rekao da su: "Bošnjakom isti pradjedovi bili kao i Poljakom". [2]

Bosnia and its people take name from Illyrian roots. And you envy us for that :)

So Kotromanic uses name Bosnian for his kingdom in 1440?

Illyrian roots? Illyrian genetics are from haplogroup E which is higher in Serbs than Bosniaks. You may like to think you're Illyrians but it's just dreaming. The Albanians have the most ancestry from Illyrians and come closer to claiming them in Balkans.

[RandoBloom]

You keep saying stupidity but Germany and then America armed you through Croatia. You only survived because West put pressure on Milosevic to abandon supplying Croatian and Bosnian Serb rebels but Bosnian Serbs hold 50% of the land, how is this defeat? I thought you Bosnians cry about this all the time, why they get 50% of land through ethnic cleansing etc


Suplied us? When in 94 when embargo was lifted?
50%? You held 80 and had all the military power of JNA and were unable to defeat us :)
Its a win. And will be finished in the next war.

[RandoBloom]

So Kotromanic uses name Bosnian for his kingdom in 1440?

Illyrian roots? Illyrian genetics are from haplogroup E which is higher in Serbs than Bosniaks. You may like to think you're Illyrians but it's just dreaming. The Albanians have the most ancestry from Illyrians and come closer to claiming them in Balkans.

Why yes, Bosona - Bosnia all from Illyrian times ;)
Actualy haplogroup I ;)
But that wont be discussed since you dont know the basics.
Oh yes, and what serbian name is Kotroman

[Stefan_Dusan]

Suplied us? When in 94 when embargo was lifted?
50%? You held 80 and had all the military power of JNA and were unable to defeat us :)
Its a win. And will be finished in the next war.

Germany was arming Croatians and then Bosnians well before embargo was lifted. Who do you think built that Croatian military for operation Storm?

It's incredible for 30% of the people of Bosnia to hold 80%, 50% is more reasonable, they won't be so over stretched this way.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Why yes, Bosona - Bosnia all from Illyrian times ;)
Actualy haplogroup I ;)
But that wont be discussed since you dont know the basics.
Oh yes, and what serbian name is Kotroman

I has to do with slavs which is why highest diversity is in southern Ukraine where no recorded Illyrian set foot. Highest diversity of E is in coastal Albania.

[RandoBloom]

Germany was arming Croatians and then Bosnians well before embargo was lifted. Who do you think built that Croatian military for operation Storm?

Croats were armed by Germans, and that is why they ended war in croatia completely. Bosnians on the other hand had no weapons to speak of at the start, had to smugle everything, and never had any heavy weapons except captured. Who gave hundreds of tanks to VRS? Weapons sharing in 91? And many more...

[RandoBloom]

I has to do with slavs which is why highest diversity is in southern Ukraine where no recorded Illyrian set foot. Highest diversity of E is in coastal Albania.

Useless to argue, you wont acknowledge anyones opinion except your own

[Stefan_Dusan]

Croats were armed by Germans, and that is why they ended war in croatia completely. Bosnians on the other hand had no weapons to speak of at the start, had to smugle everything, and never had any heavy weapons except captured. Who gave hundreds of tanks to VRS? Weapons sharing in 91? And many more...

This is revisionist history. Croatia began transferring arms to Bosnia (from Germany and America) as early as 1993. I know you Bosnians like to think you're lions but you have to live with reality that you (+ Croats) were more numerous to Serbs in 2 to 1 ration yet 30% of population holds still 50% of land.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Useless to argue, you wont acknowledge anyones opinion except your own

Give me why I has highest diversity in southern Ukraine but you want to associate it with Illyrians. What is E then? E spreads much nicer over Illyrian territories than I does.

[RandoBloom]

This is revisionist history. Croatia began transferring arms to Bosnia (from Germany and America) as early as 1993. I know you Bosnians like to think you're lions but you have to live with reality that you (+ Croats) were more numerous to Serbs in 2 to 1 ration yet 30% of population holds still 50% of land.

We smugled weapons trough croatia, half of it croats took for themselves. If that is arming I dont know what armies are doing in this world.
35% of population had all the heavy weapons, all the ammo they needed etc.. And they took that in opening days of the war and just kept loosing it.
You never won a battle on equal footing.

[RandoBloom]

Give me why I has highest diversity in southern Ukraine but you want to associate it with Illyrians. What is E then? E spreads much nicer over Illyrian territories than I does.

Haplogroup I2a* appears to have originated in the Balkans, perhaps from a glacial refugium there; I2a is very common in Croatia and Bosnia today and decreases in frequency across Eastern Europe. A rare offshoot branch of I2a is also found further West, including in the British Isles. Another subgroup of I2a is by far the most common lineage in Sardinia, but it is also found at low frequencies in France and Spain.

Haplogroup R1a is found today across a large swathe of Asia and Europe and may have originated in South or Central Asia. R1a is most common among Pakistanis, Northern Indians, Russians, Ukrainians and the Kyrgyz and Altai peoples of Central Asia. In Europe R1a is the most common group in Slavic peoples and is also very common in Scandinavia. The presence of R1a in the British Isles is in the main due to Norse Viking ancestry, although Anglo-Saxons and Danes will have carried a smaller proportion there and there is a rare English-specific subgroup. It has been hypothesised that haplogroup R1a was carried to Europe by the Kurgan culture, who domesticated the horse.

Haplogroup E1b1b(*) - defined by the marker M35 - appears to have originated in East Africa, but has been carried from there to the Near East and then on to North Africa and Europe (especially the Mediterranean and the Balkans). Today it is most common in the horn of Africa, North Africa, the Near East and around the Mediterranean. One subgroup decreases in frequency from SE to NW Europe consistent with a dispersal mediated by the arrival of farmers in the Neolithic period, beginning 10,000 years ago.
*Haplogroup E1b1b was formally known as E3b

Haplogroup I2b(*) appears to have originated near modern day Germany, where it reaches it peak frequency. I2b is found spread across a broad area of NW Europe including the British Isles, where it has been brought by numerous historical migrations.
*I2b was formally known as I1b2

The J2 lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India. As with other populations with Mediterranean ancestry this lineage is found within Jewish populations.

Research note: Many people new to Genetic Genealogy think the J2 haplogroup is synonymous with having male Jewish ancestry. One should note that having a J2 haplogroup assignment does not necessarily indicate Jewish ancestry. The J2 haplogroup is far more ancient than the Jewish religion and is found in many lines with Mediterranean region ancient ancestry. Another relatively more recent mode for J2's entry into some parts of Europe from the Mediterranean areas could have been the Roman Legions and Roman settlements.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Haplogroup I2a* appears to have originated in the Balkans, perhaps from a glacial refugium there; I2a is very common in Croatia and Bosnia today and decreases in frequency across Eastern Europe. A rare offshoot branch of I2a is also found further West, including in the British Isles. Another subgroup of I2a is by far the most common lineage in Sardinia, but it is also found at low frequencies in France and Spain. .

No it appears to originate in southern Ukraine. You are going by highest concentration (which is in Herzegovina). You need to go by highest diversity. If it's originated, it would be there many years allowing for minor mutations to increase diversity. That epicenter for I2a is in now southern Ukraine. The high concentration in Herzegovina is probably from genetic drift.

For example E has highest diversity in Albania but highest concentration in Kosovo and southern Serbia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

We smugled weapons trough croatia, half of it croats took for themselves. If that is arming I dont know what armies are doing in this world.
35% of population had all the heavy weapons, all the ammo they needed etc.. And they took that in opening days of the war and just kept loosing it.
You never won a battle on equal footing.

Bosnian Serbs reached their maximum in size somewhere in 1993 or 1994. They did not open with 80% of land. They began losing land when Milosevic cut shipping and pulled back paras. And of course you had unity with Croats and access to the weapons of America/Germany as well as their diplomatic support.

[RandoBloom]

No it appears to originate in southern Ukraine. You are going by highest concentration (which is in Herzegovina). You need to go by highest diversity. If it's originated, it would be there many years allowing for minor mutations to increase diversity. That epicenter for I2a is in now southern Ukraine. The high concentration in Herzegovina is probably from genetic drift.

For example E has highest diversity in Albania but highest concentration in Kosovo and southern Serbia.

Blah blah blah... what did I tell you? That you will not acknowledge anyones thoughts, opinions and evidence except your own. So I will just blah blah, maybe you will understand what a culture of dialogue is

[RandoBloom]

Bosnian Serbs reached their maximum in size somewhere in 1993 or 1994. They did not open with 80% of land. They began losing land when Milosevic cut shipping and pulled back paras. And of course you had unity with Croats and access to the weapons of America/Germany as well as their diplomatic support.

Unity with croats? Is that why we waged war on each other from 93-94?
Yeah I guess to spice up the unity.
You started by positioning tanks for "military excersise" on every advantageous position and then started firing. Cowardly. And you couldnt defeat unarmed people in 2 years. So much for your military prowess. Only thing you serbs excell at is ethnic cleansing and rape.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Unity with croats? Is that why we waged war on each other from 93-94?
Yeah I guess to spice up the unity.
You started by positioning tanks for "military excersise" on every advantageous position and then started firing. Cowardly. And you couldnt defeat unarmed people in 2 years. So much for your military prowess. Only thing you serbs excell at is ethnic cleansing and rape.

By beginning of 1994 you had official unity and treaty. But in reality it began towards end of 1993. Anyways airstrikes began against Serb positions as early as 1994. You were not only armed but you had American planes hitting Bosnian Serb artillery.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Blah blah blah... what did I tell you? That you will not acknowledge anyones thoughts, opinions and evidence except your own. So I will just blah blah, maybe you will understand what a culture of dialogue is

If I2a is mark of ancient Illyrians, Albanians would have almost no Illyrian lineage. How would that be when old Illyria formed around Albania?

[Gorštak]

There are no links to this battle, must have been small and not important (only 400 dead indicates). Here is link to battle of Kolubara:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolubara

More than 400 death soldiers on one side isn't a small number. And there are some information that people find in books, not just on internet.

[Gorštak]

XX