Orbán on European secularism

[Szegedist]

“Europe has fallen into the trap of an aggressively secular, internationalist and anti-family vision, which logically leads people to abandon their own Christian traditions… the Europe of old that reached for the skies is now stuck to the ground.”

Prime Minister Viktor Orbán at a ceremony April 28 marking the partial reconstruction of the church in Ják, western Hungary, originally consecrated in 1256. Orbán stressed the importance of returning the traditions of prayer and work to the center of daily life. "We recognized this task and this situation in 2010, when the voters entrusted us with the creation of Hungary's new Constitution," he said. "We view St. Stephen's path as our own." Orbán was quoted by Hungarian news service MTI


Ják church
http://www.templom.hu/phpwcms/index.php?id=14,530,0,0,1,0

[arcticwolf]

Ok here is my take on it.

Secularism is not a problem, it actually is a solution. Religion and by extension blind faith has been used as a method to control masses since time immemorial. They conveniently leave off the fact that many are turned off to religion precisely because of the fact that it requires them to believe blindly, you either accept the premises or else. This is not gonna work with minds that want to be free to explore all options and want to see for themselves rather than blindly believe in someone else's interpretation.

As to family ties not as strong, etc it's a cultural thing and independence thing. I personally think that it's a phase and it will change, family ties are the strongest people have they will never go away.

What people truly need is not superficial construct like prayer, they need true spirituality. You don't become spiritual by preying which is nothing more than bargains with God, you do that by being mindful of the reality inside and outside of yourself.

Here is the short version, Europeans are past primitive blind faith based religions, they need true spiritual way. Going back to blind faith and rituals especially when institutionalized is not gonna work at all.

[Szegedist]

Sorry Articwolf, but this time I side with my PM.

You can't put all Europeans in one big group. Secularism might work in Estonia, but secularism is spiritual cancer for Hungary.

[Cern]

a little oil into the fire :laugh:
He provokes EU liberals.

[arcticwolf]

Sorry Articwolf, but this time I side with my PM.

You can't put all Europeans in one big group. Secularism might work in Estonia, but secularism is spiritual cancer for Hungary.

There is nothing to be sorry about friend. You are free to have your take on it, I love freedom my friend and would never take it away from nobody.

Actually blind faith is a cancer of the mind. Blind faith makes mind inflexible and rigid. Take a realistic look at religions that place high value on blind faith, are they really spiritual? Truth is not afraid and it don't use mafia tactics to gain following. Truth does not need to be afraid of competition, and never would force itself on anyone, it's there for anyone to see it, free and unrestrained.

Europe owes it's progress to enlightenment, the shedding of religious shackles and curtailing the power of blind faith in favor of freedom of the mind to doubt and question everything including religion.

If the mind holds on to the concept of "sacred cows" and tabus it will never achieve the heights it is capable of.

My friend what we need is minds rooted in freedom and curiosity, which understand reality and don't hide or go for something artificial to gain inspiration or strength from.

You know I'm Polish so I like you by default. ;)

[arcticwolf]

a little oil into the fire :laugh:
He provokes EU liberals.

I am neither a liberal nor a conservative amigo. :P

[Szegedist]

Religion is deeply rooted into the foundation of the Hungarian state, our culture and our identity, and even our anthem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himnusz#Lyrics

We were very religious people, during Pagan times, and then too during Christian times.

It is not something you can simply get rid, without severe negative repercussions, it would be the same as cutting off your arm.

I have seen first hand what secularism did to my people, and it is not good at all.

[Szegedist]

We will do what we normally do, and follow our own path. You might be right, there might be some advantages to secularism. But it is simply not for Hungarians.

If the rest of Europe goes down the secular route, that is their issue, but we must not, as it will be the spiritual death of our nation, when the physical death has already happened.

[Cern]

I am neither a liberal nor a conservative amigo. :P

I wasn't talking about you .
I thought of Orbán Viktor.:)

[arcticwolf]

We will do what we normally do, and follow our own path. You might be right, there might be some advantages to secularism. But it is simply not for Hungarians.

If the rest of Europe goes down the secular route, that is their issue, but we must not, as it will be the spiritual death of our nation, when the physical death has already happened.

Alright friend, I have no problem with that at all. Do what you understand is best for your country. You know your nation has my best wishes.

[Musso]

I agree with him ( though don't like him). Secularism should at least not be forced.

[Cern]

There is nothing to be sorry about friend. You are free to have your take on it, I love freedom my friend and would never take it away from nobody.

Actually blind faith is a cancer of the mind. Blind faith makes mind inflexible and rigid. Take a realistic look at religions that place high value on blind faith, are they really spiritual? Truth is not afraid and it don't use mafia tactics to gain following. Truth does not need to be afraid of competition, and never would force itself on anyone, it's there for anyone to see it, free and unrestrained.

Europe owes it's progress to enlightenment, the shedding of religious shackles and curtailing the power of blind faith in favor of freedom of the mind to doubt and question everything including religion.

If the mind holds on to the concept of "sacred cows" and tabus it will never achieve the heights it is capable of.

My friend what we need is minds rooted in freedom and curiosity, which understand reality and don't hide or go for something artificial to gain inspiration or strength from.

You know I'm Polish so I like you by default. ;)

The "blind faith" , " freedom" is a relative concept.
Human mind always the same, which varies: ideologies, religion, etc.
Today's liberals dogmatic, intolerant, blind faith, etc. They a media campaign against hungary.
It is a struggle.:)

(sorry bad english)

[Xenomorph]

The reason why secularism has worked in other parts of Europe is that it developed gradually over several centuries. In East Europe, it was largely suddenly enforced by communist rulers; this kind of violent cultural shift almost always never works. Societies need to change at a reasonable pace in order to adapt to new realities, or else they will fall into social confusion. It isn't secularism that's the problem, it's society being forced to change too quickly.

[robar]

Actually blind faith is a cancer of the mind. Blind faith makes mind inflexible and rigid. Take a realistic look at religions that place high value on blind faith, are they really spiritual? Truth is not afraid and it don't use mafia tactics to gain following.
Blind-faith?
I will name you a few blind faiths:
monetarism
free-market fundamentalism
liberalism
some human-rights

[Stears]

The reason why secularism has worked in other parts of Europe is that it developed gradually over several centuries. In East Europe, it was largely suddenly enforced by communist rulers; this kind of violent cultural shift almost always never works. Societies need to change at a reasonable pace in order to adapt to new realities, or else they will fall into social confusion. It isn't secularism that's the problem, it's society being forced to change too quickly.

Please define more correct the regions and territories of Europe.
Hungary is not located in Eastern (orthodox) but in Central Europe.

Only German speaking territories and Benelux states were/are more secular regions than Hungary.

Do not forget the statistical fact: Hungary has one of the lowest ratio of churchgoers in Europe.

[Szegedist]

Only German speaking territories and Benelux states were/are more secular regions than Hungary.

Do not forget the statistical fact: Hungary has one of the lowest ratio of churchgoers in Europe.

And you say this with pride :picard2::picard1:

It is a bad thing, not something to boast about.

You try so hard to be Western, you probably think Hungary was at it's most Western under "pro Western liberal Gyurcsány when Hungary was like Sweden" :laugh: :picard1:

[Stears]

And you say this with pride :picard2::picard1:

It is a bad thing, not something to boast about.


The spread of the information and reality does not mean pride. Érted suvickos kinézetű félszerb balkáni szegedi?

[Loki]

I agree with him ( though don't like him). Secularism should at least not be forced.

It is religion that is usually forced on people. From a tender age.

[Szegedist]

The spread of the information and reality does not mean pride.
Your idea of "Spread of information" translates to liberalism, social demokracy, multiculturalism. Look at Hungary today. You can equally spread information under Christianity.


Érted suvickos kinézetű félszerb balkáni szegedi?
félszerb?? :laugh: Te hülye labanckurva, Felvidéki magyar vagyok.

[evon]

I can see why people are so worried these days, and iknow that many people think that if we just revert to a "past" everything will be much better, as we think it was then. But the reality is that our ancestors chose this future for us and we continue to indorse it, otherwise we would have changed it already. The world is getting better and better, more stable, richer and healthier then it was say 50 years ago, this is a good summary using numbers and visual aids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

So why would we want to return to the world of yesterday? If you truly think Hungary should become more religious, then i suggest you start going to church and such more often yourself rather then trying to force this onto others, change starts with yourself after all..

Personally i think Europe is changing these days, we are becoming more aware of our spirituality, but i dont think that the religions of the past will be the way forward and i think the majority agrees on that, Christianity and Islam have too much blood on their hands as such, so i think you will see a resurgence of Neo-Paganist religions along with European versions of East and South Asian religions, such as Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, Jainism and Hinduism branches...

[Szegedist]

Please we don't need Scandinavian new age nonsense in Hungary, especially not Indo-European religion.

For those who dont understand Hungarian history, it is easy to say nonsense about religion in Hungary and the role it played.

[evon]

Please we don't need Scandinavian new age nonsense in Hungary, especially not Indo-European religion.

This comment is about as ignorant as saying the world is flat... :wacko: and last i checked, there is no such thing as a Indo-European religion, let alone Linguistic religion...Spending too much time with the Turanists and Nordicists i take it *_*

Study and learn my friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_%28contemporary%29

[Szegedist]

This comment is about as ignorant as saying the world is flat... :wacko: and last i checked, there is no such thing as a Indo-European religion,
Indo-European religions = Budhism, Slavic paganism, Germanic paganism etc


Study and learn my friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_%28contemporary%29
Only form of paganism in Hungary would be ancient Hungarian shamanism, but even this is so-so.
No "wiccans", no Celtic druids, no Thor and no Odin in Hungary.

[Insuperable]

I can see why people are so worried these days, and iknow that many people think that if we just revert to a "past" everything will be much better, as we think it was then. But the reality is that our ancestors chose this future for us and we continue to indorse it, otherwise we would have changed it already. The world is getting better and better, more stable, richer and healthier then it was say 50 years ago, this is a good summary using numbers and visual aids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

So why would we want to return to the world of yesterday? If you truly think Hungary should become more religious, then i suggest you start going to church and such more often yourself rather then trying to force this onto others, change starts with yourself after all..

Personally i think Europe is changing these days, we are becoming more aware of our spirituality, but i dont think that the religions of the past will be the way forward and i think the majority agrees on that, Christianity and Islam have too much blood on their hands as such, so i think you will see a resurgence of Neo-Paganist religions along with European versions of East and South Asian religions, such as Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, Jainism and Hinduism branches...

I can understand other mentioned, but Hinduism branches?:picard2:

[evon]

Indo-European religions = Budhism, Slavic paganism, Germanic paganism etc


Only form of paganism in Hungary would be ancient Hungarian shamanism, but even this is so-so.
No "wiccans", no Celtic druids, no Thor and no Odin in Hungary.

They are not indo-european religions, this idea of connecting everything to linguistic groups is so backwards and anti-intellectual, it serves no purpose for real debates..But if you want to use that term then ok, i cant force you not to..Also, people dont choose their faith based on linguistic ideas, at least not those whom genuinely seek spirituality..And lastly, Christianity is hardly connected to to the Hungarian language :P

You have been spending too much time with Turanists and Nordicists, its obvious with such arguments...everything seems to hinge on language...

[evon]

I can understand other mentioned, but Hinduism branches?:picard2:

Hare Krishna , Yogic ideas and so on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness

Every summer we actually get lots of these Hare Krishna monks in my city, ive met one from Hungary and one from Bulgaria already...The Hungarian guy was nice, tried to sell me a Hindu book, he approached me in a park when he saw one of my tattoos that have Runes on them, he mistakenly thought it was ancient Hungarian script, so asked why i had them ect..

[Szegedist]

You have been spending too much time with Turanists and Nordicists, its obvious with such arguments...everything seems to hinge on language...

Nothing to do with language, but history, culture. For you it would be normal for a Hungarian to worship Thor and Odin, or Perun? To me it would be idiotic.

[The Lawspeaker]

I can see why people are so worried these days, and iknow that many people think that if we just revert to a "past" everything will be much better, as we think it was then. But the reality is that our ancestors chose this future for us and we continue to indorse it, otherwise we would have changed it already. The world is getting better and better, more stable, richer and healthier then it was say 50 years ago, this is a good summary using numbers and visual aids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

So why would we want to return to the world of yesterday? If you truly think Hungary should become more religious, then i suggest you start going to church and such more often yourself rather then trying to force this onto others, change starts with yourself after all..

Personally i think Europe is changing these days, we are becoming more aware of our spirituality, but i dont think that the religions of the past will be the way forward and i think the majority agrees on that, Christianity and Islam have too much blood on their hands as such, so i think you will see a resurgence of Neo-Paganist religions along with European versions of East and South Asian religions, such as Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, Jainism and Hinduism branches...


I'd hope so but first we need to get rid of a certain other influx that comes in from the deserts of the Middle East.

[Insuperable]

Hare Krishna , Yogic ideas and so on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness

Every summer we actually get lots of these Hare Krishna monks in my city, ive met one from Hungary and one from Bulgaria already...The Hungarian guy was nice, tried to sell me a Hindu book, he approached me in a park when he saw one of my tattoos that have Runes on them, he mistakenly thought it was ancient Hungarian script, so asked why i had them ect..

So you would rather have that than Christianity? Christianity is Semitic as people (I think you too) know to say here and there, but Hinduism is perfectly European.
People do not know much about Christianity, especially those who are drawn to something like that and if they plan to move past a certain philosophical ideas. Please do not tell me that they have read 1000s of books... and just so you know I think they did. Many Christians do not know much about Christianity, but it is always more attractive to take a book and read something else more exotic, but deeply in this case.

[evon]

Nothing to do with language, but history, culture. For you it would be normal for a Hungarian to worship Thor and Odin, or Perun? To me it would be idiotic.

If that was the case, you should not have used exclusively Linguistic terms, such as Indo-European. Neo-Paganism is not like many old paganism religions, they are not ethnic religions, but are more akin to universals, like Christianity ect..and you not find many that follow the Gods of old, rather they have taken up new gods, or have created the old into something new..Wicca is a good example of this sort of evolution, its basis is Druidism, but it has evolved to become something new...


I'd hope so but first we need to get rid of a certain other influx that comes in from the deserts of the Middle East.

If immigration stops soon, it wount be a big problem, and they too will be part of this trend..


So you would rather have that than Christianity? Christianity is Semitic as people (I think you too) know to say here and there, but Hinduism is perfectly European.
People do not know much about Christianity, especially those who are drawn to something like that and if they plan to move past a certain philosophical ideas. Please do not tell me that they have read 1000s of books... and just so you know I think they did. Many Christians do not know much about Christianity, but it is always more attractive to take a book and read something else more exotic, but deeply in this case.

Many Europeans, like myself, feel we have more in common with the ideals and mentality professed in non-Abrahamic religions, it is just how things are. Though of course when i read about a religion, i do so through my Nordic eyes, hence it takes great effort to get past as much of this cultural barrier as possible, especially when reading about South Asian religions, less so with Chinese, whose collective ideas mirror in many ways the Nordic Jante law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante) ideals, which flourish here still.

Christianity to many here is something with a past they do not wish to return to, a society that professes values that are out of touch with their own, abrahamic religions tend to have allot of Racism, Homophobia, Sexist and pro-violence stance, now one can choose to ignore these if one wishes to, but that does not remove them, they are still there, for better and worse...Many other religions lack these, or have them in smaller quantities, thus making them more attractive, and as people get more and more educated, we learn about all the various faiths and ideas that inhabit our world, not just the local religious ideas.....

[Insuperable]

If that was the case, you should not have used exclusively Linguistic terms, such as Indo-European. Neo-Paganism is not like many old paganism religions, they are not ethnic religions, but are more akin to universals, like Christianity ect..and you not find many that follow the Gods of old, rather they have taken up new gods, or have created the old into something new..Wicca is a good example of this sort of evolution, its basis is Druidism, but it has evolved to become something new...



If immigration stops soon, it wount be a big problem, and they too will be part of this trend..



Many Europeans, like myself, feel we have more in common with the ideals and mentality professed in non-Abrahamic religions, it is just how things are. Though of course when i read about a religion, i do so through my Nordic eyes, hence it takes great effort to get past as much of this cultural barrier as possible, especially when reading about South Asian religions, less so with Chinese, whose collective ideas mirror in many ways the Nordic Jante law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante) ideals, which flourish here still.

Christianity to many here is something with a past they do not wish to return to, a society that professes values that are out of touch with their own, abrahamic religions tend to have allot of Racism, Homophobia, Sexist and pro-violence stance, now one can choose to ignore these if one wishes to, but that does not remove them, they are still there, for better and worse...Many other religions lack these, or have them in smaller quantities, thus making them more attractive, and as people get more and more educated, we learn about all the various faiths and ideas that inhabit our world, not just the local religious ideas.....

As I have said despite you reading 1000s of book you know nothing of Christianity.

p.s. I am not saying that these elements are not there at all.

[evon]

As I have said despite you reading 1000s of book you know nothing of Christianity.

p.s. I am not saying that these elements are not there at all.

Of course iknow a thing or two about Christianity, its impossible not to learn about it when you study history, but deism and a non-passive god figure does not seem logical to me, they are just as "real" as unicorns and other fables..While Confucianism fits much more..

[Insuperable]

Of course iknow a thing or two about Christianity, its impossible not to learn about it when you study history, but deism and a non-passive god figure does not seem logical to me, they are just as "real" as unicorns and other fables..While Confucianism fits much more..

You left an impression on me that you are a guy who is well knowledgeable about various religions. Id swear you tried to leave that impression. I have nothing against Confucianism if its metaphysical extension does not go too far in an sense that Christianity is as real as "unicorns", but metaphysical and "other unicorn" like meanings of other religions and movements are acceptable.

[evon]

You left an impression on me that you are a guy who is well knowledgeable about various religions. Id swear you tried to leave that impression. I have nothing against Confucianism if its metaphysical extension does not go too far in an sense that Christianity is as real as "unicorns", but metaphysical and "other unicorn" like meanings of other religions and movements are acceptable.

Confucianism is very varied, but its allot like Daoism and Buddhism in its basic form, but the details vary..I have studied a few Religions, mostly Islam and Classical Greek/Roman religions, but also Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, Hinduism and so on...But i only have a basic understanding of the wider religious landscape of the world, especially with regards to the neo-pagan movements in Europe and America, but one thing is for sure, the religious movements in the world seems to be moving away from organized religions into more loose ones, such as various pagan religions..