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View Full Version : Drones for the German military stir controversy



Baluarte
05-03-2013, 10:17 PM
The German government wants to buy unmanned drones from the United States, or Israel, but the opposition does not see a necessity for these aircraft, which can be used as bomb-toting weapons, or for reconnaissance.

Minister of Defense Thomas de Maizière, of Germany's Christian Democratic Party (CDU), is quite clear about why the German Armed Forces - the Bundeswehr - needs the unmanned drone aircraft navigated by remote control.

The argument he used in parliament went something like this: Bundeswehr Special Forces are sent out to capture terrorists, accompanied by a drone, which could follow their progress or provide instructions from the air.

Should the German troops encounter danger, then the unmanned drone could help them by firing rockets controlled by a separate station. As it is now, soldiers - without such drone weapons - would have to request a manned aircraft to come to their assistance. That would come 10 to 15 minutes later, de Maizière pointed out, and would be less precise and would put the soldiers' lives at risk. "We don't want that," he concluded.

The troops would be better protected if the Bundeswehr owned drones, the minister said, adding soberly that any risk of loss, in this case, would be limited to an aircraft.

Pricy equipment

The German government could purchase the coveted unmanned aircraft in the United States, or Israel. Currently, the Bundeswehr leases three "Heron" drones from the Israeli Air Force for aerial reconnaissance in Afghanistan; they are not armed.

In early 2012, the German government asked its US ally if it could order three drones of the "MQ-9 Reaper" model. The "Reaper" can be equipped with air-to-ground missiles or precision-guided bombs. One such drone produced by American manufacturer General Atomics costs around 4.5 million dollars (3.45 million euros).
Armed drones are supposed to take on dangerous missions from the air instead of the ground
The United States Congress must approve such an arms export, and has meanwhile given the green light.

But that does not necessarily mean the German government will actually buy the American drones, de Maizière said during his visit in Washington at the end of April. That decision will "definitely not be made before the German federal election on September 22, 2013," he said. For one thing, a whole slew of legal, financial and ethical questions must first be resolved. For another, the government doesn't want the matter to backfire during its election campaign.

To what end?

Yet even if the German government has not signed a contract for purchase, it's still clearly preparing for the acquisition. It's a move that has irked the opposition, and prompted several debates in parliament. All three opposition parties view an acquisition of such a weapons systems either critically, or reject it outright.

The Social Democrats (SPD) doubt that the Bundeswehr actually needs the drones, and have raised questions about the military scenario in which they might be used.

Pakistanis have protested against drones killing civilians
Drone weapons are not permitted in European airspace, and operational missions in Afghanistan are to end in the coming year. In other words, possibilities for their use appear to be negligible at this time.

"A drone weapon aircraft cannot capture someone," argued SPD politician Hans-Peter Bartels in parliament. "One can only use it to observe a situation and to kill in a carefully targeted fashion, if so desired," he said.

This is the procedure the American intelligence agency, the CIA, uses in hunting down terrorists in Yemen, he pointed out. Legal experts consider this a clear breach of international humanitarian law. "The CIA's combat drone scenario is completely out of the question for Germany," Bartels said.

Allegedly very precise

Many German parliamentarians are outraged over the killing of hundreds of uninvolved civilians by US drones in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. It's a "complete dissolution of the boundaries" of war, said Jan van Aken of the socialist Left Party. "Combat planes would never be flown during such missions," he said. For thing, pilots' lives would not be put at risk, and for another, the United States is not at war with Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen, he argued.

A military conflict, such as the one in Afganistan, is the pre-condition under international law for the use of these and other weapons. Whether the missiles are fired by a combat pilot or a soldier in a base station far away, combatants must be clearly distinguished from civilians. International law experts fear that with the rapidly increasing use of drones, it will become more difficult to protect the civilian population than before.

'Robotization' of war

UN Special Investigator Philip Alston in 2010 described the danger of drones as allowing a "Playstation mentality to killing." The opposition in Berlin believes that when people carry out war via computer screen and joystick, killing would become easier.

Also complicating the situation is that drones are becoming ever more "smart" and autonomous. They fly off of pre-programmed routes, starting and landing by themselves. The Greens criticize this as "armed, automated systems not tied to a chain of accountability."

De Maiziere wants better protection for German troops
It's also inevitable that civilians would be killed through such a weapon, de Maizière admitted during a round of parliamentary debate. But that innocent people die is an unavoidable consequence of war, he said. De Maizière defended "targeted killings" using drones as better than blanket bombing.

European weapons companies are eyeing the quick growth in the armed drone market in consideration of the billions that could be earned there. Buying and using such systems is the first step.

The opposition in the German parliament warns that this could lead to an arms race. Former German Development Minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul commented that "Europe didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize so that it could export new weapons systems."

Baluarte
05-04-2013, 09:50 PM
No wonder why Israelis consider Germany as their "favourite European country".
It's shocking how this piece of news go almost unnoticed.

AFP, calls it more directly:

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Germany 'may buy weaponised drones from Israel'


AFP - Germany is in talks with Israel to buy weaponised drones for its military that are seen as more technologically advanced than US ones, the weekly Der Spiegel reported.

The news magazine's Monday edition said the German defence ministry had already held two meetings with Israeli military officials, in November 2012 and February 2013, on the proposed purchase.

The chief of Germany's air force, Lieutenant General Karl Muellner, was said to have recently gone to Israel to attend a presentation of Israel's Heron TP drone, Der Spiegel said.

Berlin was believed to favour the Heron over the US-made Predator drones because it was seen as more cutting-edge, the magazine said.

Germany's defence minister, Thomas de Maiziere, in February called for combat drones to be incorporated into the air force, saying their lack created a disadvantage.

At the time, he made no mention about which drones Germany would be interested in.

But Germany had expressed an interest in jointly developing drone technology with France, to avoid becoming dependent on US or Israeli drones.

The issue of drones has generated an ethical debate in Germany, which does not use unmanned aircraft to fight battles but only for surveillance and reconnaissance missions in places such as Afghanistan.


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Baluarte
05-23-2013, 02:14 PM
SCANDAL:

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Germany to clear up mystery over scraping of drone project

Berlin: Faced with allegations of a cover up, German Defence Minister Thomas de Maiziere has pledged to clear up the mystery surrounding the government's decision to scrap the "Euro Hawk" drone project of the armed forces and to take the necessary consequences.

In his first comments since the opposition accused him of withholding information on the ill-fated project from parliament, de Maiziere said he had set up three working groups to investigate the circumstances, which led to the government's decision and to evaluate all data on the project.

He will present a detailed report to the defence committee of the Bundestag, the lower house of parliament, on June 5, he said in a statement.

The defence ministry stopped the "Euro Hawk" project after investing around USD 835 million to build a prototype of the unmanned reconnaissance aircraft on the ground that it will not get the flight permission in Europe as it lacked the necessary instruments on board to avoid a collision.

The ministry refused to invest another USD 780 million to install the "sense and avoid system" on board and also cancelled its order for four additional drones at a cost of USD 676 million.

Referring to the criticism that the federal accounting office, which has been auditing the Euro Hawk project since the beginning of last year, was denied access to the documents it had asked for and in some cases provided only incomplete documents by the ministry, de Maiziere said the office will be given full access to all documents concerning the project.

The minister said he has ordered a review of Germany's participation in the NATO's global Hawk project in the light of the country's decision to terminate the Euro Hawk project.

Several leading politicians of the ruling centre-right coalition and the opposition parties have demanded the government to put on hold the global Hawk project until it is certain that it will not have the same fate of the German version of the reconnaissance aircraft. The Free Democratic Party (FDP), a junior partner in Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition, has joined the opposition parties in demanding government to freeze the global Hawk project.

In the wake of the Euro Hawk debacle, the FDP wants to make sure that more taxpayers' money will not be wasted on this project, the party's budget affairs spokesman Juergen Koppelin said.

Therefore, the FDP wants to freeze further investments in the global Hawk project until it is confirmed that it will get the flight permission in Europe, he said in a TV interview.

Germany's share of investments in the NATO project is estimated to be around USD 520 million, according to media reports. Both versions of the reconnaissance aircraft are built by the US aerospace company Northrop Grumman.

PTI
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Just like in France, native military industry is weakened in favour of American and Israeli interests.

Baluarte
06-04-2013, 04:16 PM
In spite of critiques, seems Berlin shall continue bowing to its American chief.

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Germany signals it will stick with NATO drone plan

(Reuters) - Germany will stick to its commitment to help fund NATO drones, despite cancelling a plan to buy its own unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, Defence Minister Thomas de Maiziere signalled on Tuesday.

"We have signed an agreement and Germany usually sticks to its agreements," de Maiziere said on the sidelines of a NATO meeting.

On May 14, Germany withdrew from purchasing Euro Hawk reconnaissance drones, made by EADS and Northrop Grumman, due to the cost.

That decision raised questions over whether it would continue to back a NATO plan to acquire five high-altitude unmanned Global Hawk planes, also from Northrop Grumman, as part of NATO's Alliance Ground Surveillance (AGS) project.

"We will now look at the consequences of the Euro Hawk decision on the AGS," the minister said.

The German parliament's budget committee gave its approval last year to a 483 million euro ($630 million) contribution to the NATO drone project.

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The same controversy is taking place in France right now.


A paper from 1995 concerning the new directions of the American War Machine, prefaced by Admiral William Owens has been brought back to relevance, and after reading the first part of it, it does make perfect sense.

"What is happening, driven in part by broad conceptual architectures, in part by
serendipity, is the creation of a new system of systems. Merging our increasing capacity to
gather real-time, all-weather information continuously with our increasing capacity to
process and make sense of this voluminous data builds the realm of dominant battlespace
knowledge (DBK). DBK involves everything from automated target recognition to
knowledge of an opponent's operational scheme and the networks relied on to pursue that
scheme. The result will be an increasing gap between U.S. military forces and any
opponent in awareness and understanding of everything of military significance in any
arena in which we may be engaged."

Albion
06-05-2013, 03:28 AM
I don't understand why people are so against drones. What is the difference with them from a normal surveillance aircraft other than them being unmanned? Are people worried about being spied upon?

Albion
06-05-2013, 03:34 AM
German drone almost hits a passenger plane (http://rt.com/news/luna-drone-near-collision-188/)

Baluarte
06-05-2013, 04:30 AM
I don't understand why people are so against drones. What is the difference with them from a normal surveillance aircraft other than them being unmanned? Are people worried about being spied upon?

It's not the drones themselves, it's the fact German, French and on overall all European armed forces have scrapped their projects to produce their own vessels, instead relying 100% on imports from the US or Israel.

That is the whole controversy

Albion
06-05-2013, 04:44 AM
It's not the drones themselves, it's the fact German, French and on overall all European armed forces have scrapped their projects to produce their own vessels, instead relying 100% on imports from the US or Israel.

That is the whole controversy

Yes, the Americans are dominating the market. Most European projects are scaled down or abandoned, although Britain bought some French Thales Watchkeeper surveillance drones. Usually European nations co-operate on designing new military equipment, but I think the trend at the moment is just to buy it from America.

Baluarte
06-05-2013, 04:48 AM
It's not even the US you know: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?80749-Israel-is-world-s-largest-drone-exporter&highlight=israel+drone

Albion
06-05-2013, 05:07 AM
It's not even the US you know: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?80749-Israel-is-world-s-largest-drone-exporter&highlight=israel+drone

We don't buy from Israel, so it's okay.

Baluarte
06-05-2013, 05:12 AM
I'm not so sure about that:

According to Drone Wars UK, all of your "Hermes 450 surveillance drone" are Israeli, just like the "Watchkeeper surveillance drone".
Both produced by Elbit Systems.

Elbit Systems:
Elbit Systems Ltd. is a defense electronics manufacturer and integrator. Established in 1967, and based in Haifa, Israel, Elbit employs 11,000 people worldwide.

Albion
06-05-2013, 09:43 AM
I'm not so sure about that:

According to Drone Wars UK, all of your "Hermes 450 surveillance drone" are Israeli, just like the "Watchkeeper surveillance drone".
Both produced by Elbit Systems.

Elbit Systems:
Elbit Systems Ltd. is a defense electronics manufacturer and integrator. Established in 1967, and based in Haifa, Israel, Elbit employs 11,000 people worldwide.

Watchkeeper is made by Thales. :confused: