Buddhist Origins

[Creeping Death]

Which, to the extent that it is true (and it is to an extent true), only proves the fundamental contention of Indo-European cultural and cultic studies in that those religions are fundamentally speaking myths and beliefs that have travelled, foreign importations in syncresis, but far from "native" products.The thread caught my eye last night, its as if the author is claiming that Odin and Thor are uniquely for the Scandinavian people. How far these Gods are shared is they believe that Buddha is derived from the Celtic God Cernunnos who in reality the Celts adopted from the earlier Paleolithic inhabitants of West Europe.

[Lutiferre]

The thread caught my eye last night, its as if the author is claiming that Odin and Thor are uniquely for the Scandinavian people. How far these Gods are shared is they believe that Buddha is derived from the Celtic God Cernunnos who in reality the Celts adopted from the earlier Paleolithic inhabitants of West Europe.
Here is the Cernunnos from the Gundestrup Cauldron in Denmark, a left-behind of the Celto-Germanic Cimbri tribe that inhabited Denmark at the time.
http://www.sonicksorcery.com/cernunnos.jpg
You can see how it's almost a sitting Buddha.

But the more likely explanation is that Celtic mythology has eastern influences/loans/origins.

[Psychonaut]

But the more likely explanation is that Celtic mythology has eastern influences/loans/origins.

You're barking up the wrong tree with Buddha, IMO. Aside from the fact that Siddhartha Gautama was almost undoubtedly an historical person (much like Jeebus), mythographers are pretty sure that Cernunnos as the Vedic God Pashupati (and thus his antecedent Shiva) sprang from the same Proto-Indo-European source:

Pashupati

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Tantra/pashupati_sm.jpg

Shiva

http://www.rainbowcrystal.com/altar/B-16shiva.jpg

Similarly, the English Herne the Hunter and the Scandinavian Freyr most likely came from either the original PIE source, or branched off from the Celtic.

[Lutiferre]

You're barking up the wrong tree with Buddha, IMO. Aside from the fact that Siddhartha Gautoma was almost undoubtedly an historical person (much like Jeebus), mythographers are pretty sure that Cernunnos as the Vedic God Pashupati (and thus his antecedent Shiva) sprang from the same Proto-Indo-European source:
I don't deny the historicity. But yeah, what you say is consistent with what I said. The proto-Indo-European source is widely believed to be Eastern, relative to the Celts in Europe anyway and western relative to the Far East.

[Creeping Death]

But the more likely explanation is that Celtic mythology has eastern influences/loans/origins.I dont agree Cernunnos predates Buddhism and with the discovery in the Tarim Basin of the European Mummies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies) it is now being gradually established that mythology/religious ideas moved from West to East. A good example of this proof is the swastika which first appeared in Europe, Maes Howe has the oldest swastika depiction I think, the swastika was then carried into Asia.

[Lutiferre]

I dont agree Cernunnos predates Buddhism
Actually, that is perfectly consistent with what I said. With East, I didn't mean the Far East. That one predates the other, nevertheless, doesn't change the common source in what is Eastern relative to where Celtic speakers reside.

[Psychonaut]

I dont agree Cernunnos predates Buddhism

Are you serious?


Siddhārtha Gautama (Sanskrit: सिद्धार्थ गौतम; Pali: Siddhattha Gotama) was a spiritual teacher in the north eastern region of the Indian subcontinent who founded Buddhism.[1] He is generally seen by Buddhists as the Supreme Buddha (Sammāsambuddha) of our age. The time of his birth and death are uncertain: most early 20th-century historians dated his lifetime as c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE; more recently, however, at a specialist symposium on this question,[2] the majority of those scholars who presented definite opinions gave dates within 20 years either side of 400 BCE for the Buddha's death, with others supporting earlier or later dates.

Depictions of Horned Meditative deities date all the way back to the Indus Valley Civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization) (c. 2600–1900 BCE).

[ikki]

besides you are all wrong ;)

While buddhism was founded around 500 bc, it was a very small and marginal cult among hundreds just like it.
It wasnt until the greeks arrived in india, and wholly new buddhist art began appearing... with a clear hellenic influence, along with hellenic humanist values (what is good in life? ;) )... that this new buddhism took flight.

Notice how its based upon philosophy.. in an era when the term and concept was kinda unknown elsewhere, rather than ritual as religions in India. India certainly had fabulists... but not quite philosophers..
Middle path etc, things that was the very latest in greek thinking.


Intrestingly enough those very same thoughts continued in the hellenic world, especially alexandria still around 300 AD, where and when a certain other religion was vbeing created ;) golden rules, moderation etc... hahah

[Creeping Death]

Actually, that is perfectly consistent with what I said. With East, I didn't mean the Far East. That one predates the other, nevertheless, doesn't change the common source in what is Eastern relative to where Celtic speakers reside.
Thats fine makes sense.

Are you serious?
Cernunnos goes back before 563 BCE

Depictions of Horned Meditative deities date all the way back to the Indus Valley Civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization) (c. 2600–1900 BCE).The horned Gods of Greco-Paganism such as Pan, Faunus and Hecate predate or match that Indus valley.

[Psychonaut]

Cernunnos goes back before 563 BCE
The horned Gods of Greco-Paganism such as Pan, Faunus and Hecate predate or match that Indus valley.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You said:


I dont agree Cernunnos predates Buddhism

I suppose you were meaning to say, "I don't agree. Cernunnos predates Buddhism." However, I took it to mean, "I don't agree that Cernunnos predates Buddhism." A wonderful example of the importance of good grammar! :D

[Fortis in Arduis]

I was in the Himalayas recently for three months and there were swastikas everywhere and everybody loves Shiva. The vibrations are very good and so are the people. Very agreeable company all.

[Creeping Death]

I suppose you were meaning to say, "I don't agree. Cernunnos predates Buddhism." However, I took it to mean, "I don't agree that Cernunnos predates Buddhism." A wonderful example of the importance of good grammar! :D
Its early morning where I am 6.19am;), a good excuse though.

I was in the Himalayas recently for three months and there were swastikas everywhere and everybody loves Shiva. The vibrations are very good and so are the people. Very agreeable company all.Are you sure it wasnt show for the Tourists.

[Creeping Death]

besides you are all wrong ;)

While buddhism was founded around 500 bc, it was a very small and marginal cult among hundreds just like it.
It wasnt until the greeks arrived in india, and wholly new buddhist art began appearing... with a clear hellenic influence, along with hellenic humanist values (what is good in life? ;) )... that this new buddhism took flight.

Notice how its based upon philosophy.. in an era when the term and concept was kinda unknown elsewhere, rather than ritual as religions in India. India certainly had fabulists... but not quite philosophers..
Middle path etc, things that was the very latest in greek thinking.


Intrestingly enough those very same thoughts continued in the hellenic world, especially alexandria still around 300 AD, where and when a certain other religion was vbeing created ;) golden rules, moderation etc... hahahAlexander The Great and his influence in Greco Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco_Buddhism)

[Fortis in Arduis]

Are you sure it wasnt show for the Tourists.

No, they are quite warm towards British people and I had lots of kind invitations, commendations and well-wishes.

One of my afternoon conversants, and elderly Jaina had a lot of good to say about Ireland too, as his daughter and son-in-law are consultants in the medical field living in Dublin.

When you go up into the Himalayas, the people, the scenery and the general attitudes change and become very congenial. The Indian Himalayas, Tibet and Nepal have a certain something about them.

The show for the tourists comes when you go down to the plains and find yourself swamped by beggars and people who just want your money.

[Poltergeist]

Here is the Cernunnos from the Gundestrup Cauldron in Denmark, a left-behind of the Celto-Germanic Cimbri tribe that inhabited Denmark at the time.
http://www.sonicksorcery.com/cernunnos.jpg
You can see how it's almost a sitting Buddha.

But the more likely explanation is that Celtic mythology has eastern influences/loans/origins.

Kernunnos was from teh Padania.

[Óttar]

Hellenistic influence...
From Gandhara Indus Valley:
Note the halo, three dimensional realism and Greek hairdo.
http://davidderrick.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/gandhara-buddha.jpg
Hellenistic influence under the Central Asian Kushan (depicts a secular figure as denoted by jewels.) Apparently rulers were depicted like Bodhisattvas.
http://www.guimet.fr/IMG/cache-gd2/6f190f347b8b5ff5d15e2bf272ecc52d.jpg

[Rico33]

Both the horns of the meditating ancient deities and Buddha's typical curled hair refer to the realization of the fractal nature of the universe.