Are light traits in Southern Europe due to the northern European admixture ?

[Reozek]

did light eyes/hair in Southern Europe appeared in the bronze age with the indoeuropean migrations from Central-Eastern Europe or they were already present in the indigenous paleolithic/neolithic popoluation ??

from what i've read it seems that Oetzi the mummy who lived in Chalcolithic northern Italy (before the indoeuropeans) had brown eyes and no northern european admixture...while this component among modern-day northern italians reach about 50% of aDNA :rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

I'd assume light traits would be less frequent in Southern Europe if not for Northern European admixture, but they'd still exist to a degree. You see light pigmented West Asians after all, so why not Southern Europeans too?

[Insuperable]

I'd assume light traits would be less frequent in Southern Europe if not for Northern European admixture, but they'd still exist to a degree. You see light pigmented West Asians after all, so why not Southern Europeans too?

They still are not completely "Northern European" free

[Sikeliot]

They still are not completely "Northern European" free

But the Northern European admixture is small enough that it shouldn't have much phenotypical impact.

[Insuperable]

But the Northern European admixture is small enough that it shouldn't have much phenotypical impact.

If 10% of SWA can make someone look Arab so 10% of northern European admixture can make some look northern

[Stefan]

These phenotypic qualities disperse as a gradient with an origin. Define what you mean by "North-European." It's likely the case that Southern Europeans have had many waves of admixture since the origin of the mutation which caused light traits in Northeastern Europe. Since Southern Europe is further away from Northeastern Europe and population movements to Southern Europe from these regions and the adjacent regions (which decrease in frequency by distance) would be less frequent, there is a lower frequency. Hence, the further away from the origin of the mutation, with a few exceptions, the lesser the probabilistic chance that you will have that mutation. It's likely the case that enough populations movement occurred very early on (since the onset of the mutation) that Southern Europeans mixed enough to have these light features, and the frequency increased or decreased based on other population movements and gradients.

Basically, in order to have these light features you must have mixed some time in the distant or near past with the population in which the light features originated or populations they have mixed with. Furthermore, different light features such as: skin pigmentation, eye color, hair color, etc originated in different periods of time, and some of these traits are polygenic, meaning multiple mutations (in multiple genes) contribute to the overall phenotype.

So yes, since the mutation for most of these traits, with the exception of skin depigmentation originated in Northern Europe, Southern Europeans have mixture with Northern Europeans. Of course, this holds true for Northern Europeans with each-other as well. All of these groups are intermixed heavily and could be considered one genetic population, if we are to use the biological and ecological definition of population.

edit: This is of course excluding natural selection from the picture.

[Prince Carlo]

If 10% of SWA can make someone look Arab so 10% of northern European admixture can make some look northern

The only West Asians that can overlap with North Euros are North Caucasians and they rarely do it.

[alfieb]

But the Northern European admixture is small enough that it shouldn't have much phenotypical impact.

I don't know how true that is. The natives of Central Turkey in Greco-Roman times were Celts who were said to strongly resemble the Gauls of France.

[Reozek]

I don't know how true that is. The natives of Central Turkey in Greco-Roman times were Celts who were said to strongly resemble the Gauls of France.


Before them even the Phrygians migrated from Europe (Lusatian area according to Gimbutas) to Anatolia...

[Peyrol]

It depens zone by zone.

In northern Italy lighter traits are moslty celtic (that's also why our languages are called ''Gallo-Romance'') + minor germanic, in some zone slike Sicily are a normannic and swabian heritage.

[Reozek]

It depens zone by zone.

In northern Italy lighter traits are moslty celtic (that's also why our languages are called ''Gallo-Romance'') + minor germanic, in some zone slike Sicily are a normannic and swabian heritage.

i agree in part for northern Italy (or better North-western Italy , Veneto it's another story) but to be honest i don't think that northern european aDNA +light features were inexistent in Sicily and South Italy in general before the Normans...the Siculi were indoeuropeans of the Latin-faliscan group and the Island was reached in the ancient bronze age by the Bell Beakers from Spain that may could have brought some northern admixture :

"We have detected here a signal of gene flow from northern Europe into Spain around 2000 B.C.We
discuss a likely interpretation. At this time there was a characteristic pottery termed ‘bell-beakers’
believed to correspond to a population spread across Iberia and northern Europe. We hypothesize
that we are seeing here a genetic signal of the ‘Bell-Beaker culture’ (HARRISON, 1980). Initial
cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have been from South to North, but the full story
may be complex. Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from Iberia there was a
reverse flow back to Iberia (CZEBRESZUK, 2003); this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with
our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have
been accompanied by substantial population movement."

http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037.full.pdf

33415

[alfieb]

http://www.conigliofamily.com/images/SicilyRoute2009.jpg

Map is an approximation, but the Siculi were never anywhere near Palermo, where the most Germanic/Celtic admix is.

[Kastrioti1443]

It depens zone by zone.

In northern Italy lighter traits are moslty celtic (that's also why our languages are called ''Gallo-Romance'') + minor germanic, in some zone slike Sicily are a normannic and swabian heritage.


Is the Veneto Are inlfuenced by slavs?

[alfieb]

Is the Veneto Are inlfuenced by slavs?

I'm sure Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia are both influenced by Croats and Slovenes.

[Peyrol]

Is the Veneto Are inlfuenced by slavs?

Ancient venetians were called ''Venedi'', like an ancient population of Poland.
I don't know if there are some relations, btw.

Modern venetics are basically gallo-romance people with a strong germanic inputo and a quite high slavic one (even if the slavic imput is higher in the Veneto's neighbor, Friuli, the only place in Europe where a rhaeto-romanic language is majoritary).

[Peyrol]

I'm sure Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia are both influenced by Croats and Slovenes.

Fòrlan (friulian) language sound a bit portuguese and/or romanian, btw (from 0:55).

Quite unintelligible with standard italian and other northern italic languages, btw.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJYYDSxesKI

[Driven Mind]

I'd say due to a Nordid or Alpine impact in the West/Central regions and West/East Baltid in East. Light "traits" are recessive and cannot be compared to the "Arab" 10% dominant genes playing a role as somebody stated .

[Prince Carlo]

The Mesolitich hunther gathereres are the main source of Northern Euro admixture in S.Europe .

[Peyrol]

Btw, light eyes for single italian regions...as you can see, more south you go, less light eyers you can see.



Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
Lombardia 37,2%
Liguria 29,6%
Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
Umbria 32,8%
Toscana 31,5%
Marche 31,3%
Lazio 26,2%
Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
Campania 25,6%
Puglia 26,4%
Sicilia (isola) 23,7%
Basilicata 23,1%
Calabria 19,6%

Sardegna (isola) 13,9%

[Driven Mind]

Btw, light eyes for single italian regions...as you can see, more south you go, less light eyers you can see.



Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
Lombardia 37,2%
Liguria 29,6%
Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
Umbria 32,8%
Toscana 31,5%
Marche 31,3%
Lazio 26,2%
Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
Campania 25,6%
Puglia 26,4%
Sicilia (isola) 23,7%
Basilicata 23,1%
Calabria 19,6%

Sardegna (isola) 13,9%


These numbers seem exaggerated unless they include green/hazel eyes.

[Žołnir]

Slovenia is sometimes considered Southern on maps. If that is the case then yes Slovene light hair come mostly from ancestors which came from more northern latitudes than Slovenia geographically is. The combination of Celtic (Taurisci, etc.), Slavic, Germanic, etc. migrators, settlers.... and so forth

[alfieb]

Sicily being much higher than Sardinia and Calabria (and marginally higher than Lucania) most likely has to be attributed to the Germanic/Celtic admixture.

[Peyrol]

These numbers seem exaggerated unless they include green/hazel eyes.

They aren't since i live in this country and i don't base my opinion over stereotypes and american sitcoms.
Green eyes are inlcuded, btw.

Btw, ''italian'' ethnicity never existed since our ''country'' exist only since 1861.

[alfieb]

Btw, ''italian'' ethnicity never existed since our ''country'' exist only since 1861.
True story. Frank Sinatra, f ex. was half Northern Italian (Liguria) and half Sicilian.

His mother was an immoral, evil woman who volunteered as an illegal abortionist... but her family didn't mind that. They did disown her for marrying his father, because he was a Sicilian tirruni.

[Driven Mind]

They aren't since i live in this country and i don't base my opinion over stereotypes and american sitcoms.
Green eyes are inlcuded, btw.

Btw, ''italian'' ethnicity never existed since our ''country'' exist only since 1861.


Green eye are not considered light by the anthropologists. Living in the country doesn't mean you know everything about it and its people.It is a fact that Italians have many people with light eyes,but 40% regardless the region is exaggerated my friend. Bavarians don't have that many let alone the Italians,again regardless whether being close to Slovenia or not.

[Peyrol]

Green eye are not considered light by the anthropologists. Living in the country doesn't mean you know everything about it and its people.It is a fact that Italians have many people with light eyes,but 40% regardless the region is exaggerated my friend. Bavarians don't have that many let alone the Italians,again regardless whether being close to Slovenia or not.

How much do you know about history of Northern Italy? How many times you been there?

Btw, bavarians are closer to 50-55% of light eyes, as i saw my last time in Munich.
...and Munich absorbed also a lot of non-german immigrants, so the percentage can be even higher...just ask to the bavarian members there.


I don't know why people consider bavarians and austrians some kind of mystical swarthoid populations.

...and yes, everybody on earth consider green eyes light...lol, how is this color, dark? :lol:

http://imworld.aufeminin.com/dossiers/D20120522/trucco-occhi-verdi-1-161525_L.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

Light eyes = blue, green and grey eyes.

Dark eyes = all the rest.

[Peyrol]

Btw... Driven Mind, since you're bulgarian (and not austrialian as you claim to be), just take the first illegal boat from the balkans toward the Adriatic and come here to see the truth...

[bimo]

Btw... Driven Mind, since you're bulgarian (and not austrialian as you claim to be), just take the first illegal boat from the balkans toward the Adriatic and come here to see the truth...

mah :loco:



These numbers seem exaggerated unless they include green/hazel eyes.

not really , light eyes in italy are quite (not majority of course) , but in some area's of italy are really around 40% , where i live in central-north italy (emilia-romagna) on 10 people 3 have light eyes so those data seems accurate , and yes green/hazel eyes are considered light for sure not dark , at least they are more on the light side than the dark

[Atlantic Islander]

Light eyes = blue, green and grey eyes.

Dark eyes = all the rest.

Amber eyes are light too.

[Damião de Góis]

did light eyes/hair in Southern Europe appeared in the bronze age with the indoeuropean migrations from Central-Eastern Europe or they were already present in the indigenous paleolithic/neolithic popoluation ??


That's pretty much impossible to know.

[safinator]

More like intermediate.

[Reozek]

from Tony Frudakis, Ph.D. - Molecular Photofitting: Predicting Ancestry and Phenotype Using DNA p. 424 (Google books)

"NOR1 admixture greater than or equal to 35% (row 2) and NOR1+NOR2 combined admixture greater than 45% (row 4) is strongly assiocated with iris color scores greater than 2.2 (Light) , which corresponds to color scores above the mean for individuals of majority European ancestry , and includes the light hazels , greens , and blues. In contrast , MIDEA and SA admixture leveles were individually associated with color scores below 2.2 (Dark) , corresponding to color scores below the mean (dark hazels , browns , blacks)"

[Reozek]

Btw, light eyes for single italian regions...as you can see, more south you go, less light eyers you can see.



Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
Lombardia 37,2%
Liguria 29,6%
Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
Umbria 32,8%
Toscana 31,5%
Marche 31,3%
Lazio 26,2%
Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
Campania 25,6%
Puglia 26,4%
Sicilia (isola) 23,7%
Basilicata 23,1%
Calabria 19,6%

Sardegna (isola) 13,9%

Spain

http://w11.zetaboards.com/ethnodiversity/topic/7720154/1/

Study 2 : Hoyos-Sánz

Fair-eyes color (includes blue, greenish and grey) :

Vasco-Navarra 39.2%
Aragón 34.9%
Castilla La Nueva 21.4%
Castilla La Vieja 21.1%
Baleares 21.0%
León 18.8%
Múrcia 16.9%
Extremadura 18.8%
Cataluña 14.5%
Asturias 19.1%
Valencia 12.1%
Galícia 12.3%
Granada 11.7%
Andalucía 10.7%

[Peyrol]

mah :loco:




not really , light eyes in italy are quite (not majority of course) , but in some area's of italy are really around 40% , where i live in central-north italy (emilia-romagna) on 10 people 3 have light eyes so those data seems accurate , and yes green/hazel eyes are considered light for sure not dark , at least they are more on the light side than the dark


Some lombard and furlan alpine valleys are also around 50%, while probably some isolated sardinian or calabrian village can be even around 2-5%...a very big difference for a single country, indeed.

I'm curious about the portuguese and the french percentages.

[Útrám]

It could be both; a product of medieval Germanic conquest and just simply local variation.

http://whatishistory.edublogs.org/files/2009/01/germanic-kingdoms-and-eastern-roman-empire-526.gif

[Sikeliot]

Sicily being much higher than Sardinia and Calabria (and marginally higher than Lucania) most likely has to be attributed to the Germanic/Celtic admixture.

It's a difference of 4% or so. But you also have to figure this.. eastern versus western Sicily. Eastern Sicily light eyes is probably close to (and possibly below) 10%. Whereas in western regions it may be close to 35%.

[ABest]

I find some of this data about North Italy/Spain to be exaggerated. I've read studies that showed that the pigmentation difference between Southern and Northern Italy/Spain to be sizable but rather small.

[Sikeliot]

I find some of this data about North Italy/Spain to be exaggerated. I've read studies that showed that the pigmentation difference between Southern and Northern Italy/Spain to be sizable but rather small.

I don't think so. Maybe due to the fact that many northern Italians have southern Italian ancestry now due to people moving north, but overall from pictures and all studies I have seen, both northern Italy an Spain are lighter than southern Italy by quite a bit.

[alfieb]

It's a difference of 4% or so. But you also have to figure this.. eastern versus western Sicily. Eastern Sicily light eyes is probably close to (and possibly below) 10%. Whereas in western regions it may be close to 35%.

And only about 2m Sicilians live in the West.

[P-Chan]

Some lombard and furlan alpine valleys are also around 50%, while probably some isolated sardinian or calabrian village can be even around 2-5%...a very big difference for a single country, indeed.

I'm curious about the portuguese and the french percentages.


Where did you find those percentages? In Italy there are not areas where 50% of the population have light eyes, and in Sardinia, according studies made in the 80's, the avarage % of light eyes (grey and green) is 16%


2% means 2 person in a group of 100!


http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1983_num_10_2_3898

[ABest]

I don't think so. Maybe due to the fact that many northern Italians have southern Italian ancestry now due to people moving north, but overall from pictures and all studies I have seen, both northern Italy an Spain are lighter than southern Italy by quite a bit.

I don't remember what study I've read but they were showing the difference to be like 10-15%, not 30%!

[Sikeliot]

And only about 2m Sicilians live in the West.

Well Palermo has about one quarter of the island's population.. but then Trapani and Agrigento are quite empty by comparison.

Catania holds about a fifth of Sicily's population, and I'd bet you that blue eyes there are about 10% or less.

So it probably balances out somehow.

[Peyrol]

I don't think so. Maybe due to the fact that many northern Italians have southern Italian ancestry now due to people moving north, but overall from pictures and all studies I have seen, both northern Italy an Spain are lighter than southern Italy by quite a bit.

About 55% of our population is composed by second-third generation southerners.

But, since the datas about eye colors are from a study of 1910, they were right.

[Mans not hot]

No, due to genetic mutation.

[Sikeliot]

About 55% of our population is composed by second-third generation southerners.

But, since the datas about eye colors are from a study of 1910, they were right.

So in that case I'd conclude northerners are quite a bit lighter than southerners.

[Peyrol]

Where did you find those percentages? In Italy there are not areas where 50% of the population have light eyes, and in Sardinia, according studies made in the 80's, the avarage % of light eyes (grey and green) is 16%


2% means 2 person in a group of 100!


Se vuoi che ti dico che non esistono differenze te lo dico neh, questo però non lo rende un dato reale.

I numeri sono comunque stati raccolti da Ridolfo Livi sulle classi di leva 1859-1863 nel Regio Esercito.

[alfieb]

More or less.

Messina + Catania + Syracuse = Palermo. In terms of the cities, not the provinces. The Province of Catania is actually very densely populated and almost has as many residents as PA.

[Peyrol]

So in that case I'd conclude northerners are quite a bit lighter than southerners.

Well, if you assume that lombards in Milano are about 10-15% of the population and the same work for piemontese in Torino and for venetic in Venezia...

As the former sicilian governo Raffaele Lombardo said, ''Torino è la terza città siciliana d'Italia dopo Palermo e Catania'' :lol:

[Sikeliot]

More or less.

Messina + Catania + Syracuse = Palermo. In terms of the cities, not the provinces. The Province of Catania is actually very densely populated and almost has as many residents as PA.

Would you agree with me that Palermo, light eyes are probably close to 35% and in Catania about 10%? If so, it averages out to the average.

Let me try something. Here is a sample of photos from Catania collected on anthrocivitas and here is one from Palermo. I'll calculate the light eyes in them.

Catania: http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15264

THREE out of THIRTY TWO. ~9%


Palermo:
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=373

SEVEN out of THIRTY TWO. ~21%.

[Reozek]

Some lombard and furlan alpine valleys are also around 50%, while probably some isolated sardinian or calabrian village can be even around 2-5%...a very big difference for a single country, indeed.

I'm curious about the portuguese and the french percentages.

France :

Évolution de la couleur des yeux des Français depuis la fin du XVIIe siècle.

1940 data -

North-east : blue 41% , gray 13% , dark 46%
Paris : blue 34% , 9 gray % , dark 57%
North-west : blue 29% , gray 20% , dark 51%
South-east : blue 25% , gray 11% , dark 64%
South-west : blue 23% , gray 14% , dark 63%

Bulgaria :

Contribution à l'étude anthropologique des bulgares

blue : 17,65%
gray : 22,59%
brown: 59,76%

plus green : 4,10%

Greece :

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055712

14% light eyes
86% dark "

[alfieb]

As the former sicilian governo Raffaele Lombardo said, ''Torino è la terza città siciliana d'Italia dopo Palermo e Catania'' :lol:

Turin is the third (largest) Sicilian city after Palermo and Catania. In other words, so many Sicilians live there that it is essentially ours now.

[Kastrioti1443]

Torino is well know for having a lot of sicilians, one of the mafia headquarters.

[ABest]

I think I found one of the studies I was referring to.

http://archhades.blogspot.com/2011_06_01_archive.html

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/4562291520_678f532076_z.jpg

I mean they show a difference between Sicily and Northernmost italy, but much smaller than some numbers posted here. Plus, they show N. Italy to be much "darker" than "50%" light. I don't know when this study was conducted though.

[ABest]

The other studies that I remember were in map form and also showed a "relatively" small but still notable difference. However, I don't remember when those were conducted either.

[Peyrol]

I think I found one of the studies I was referring to.

http://archhades.blogspot.com/2011_06_01_archive.html

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/4562291520_678f532076_z.jpg

I mean they show a difference between Sicily and Northernmost italy, but much smaller than some numbers posted here. Plus, they show N. Italy to be much "darker" than "50%" light. I don't know when this study was conducted though.

This is a 2010 study, it's obvious that the numbers are different since basically the internal south-north immigration in the 40s-60s culturally (and phenotypically) destroyed these lands.

[alfieb]

Would you agree with me that Palermo, light eyes are probably close to 35% and in Catania about 10%? If so, it averages out to the average.

Let me try something. Here is a sample of photos from Catania collected on anthrocivitas and here is one from Palermo. I'll calculate the light eyes in them.

Catania: http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15264

THREE out of THIRTY TWO. ~9%


Palermo:
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=373

SEVEN out of THIRTY TWO. ~21%.

Trapani.

http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=160697#post160697

I think I counted 5/25.

[Peyrol]

Torino is well know for having a lot of sicilians, one of the mafia headquarters.


Turin is the third (largest) Sicilian city after Palermo and Catania. In other words, so many Sicilians live there that it is essentially ours now.

You're both right.

But in last decades romanians and MENAs are outnumbering us italics in 5 out of 10 city districts, so...

[ABest]

This is a 2010 study, it's obvious that the numbers are different since basically the internal south-north immigration in the 40s-60s culturally (and phenotypically) destroyed these lands.

Ah! I see. I'll try to find the other maps as well.

[Peyrol]

Ah! I see. I'll try to find the other maps as well.

Do you have some datas about Greece?

[Sikeliot]

Trapani.

http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=160697#post160697

I think I counted 5/25.


Messina:
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=407

2/32. So that's like 1/16 or 6.25%.

[ABest]

Do you have some datas about Greece?

Yes I do, i'll post it in a minute.

[alfieb]

You're both right.

But in last decades romanians and MENAs are outnumbering us italics in 5 out of 10 city districts, so...

Can't say I can relate. We don't have a Romanian problem. If you add up the 1.2m people who live in the Province of Palermo, I'd say between 5-10 thousand are Romanian or MENA.

[Peyrol]

Can't say I can relate. We don't have a Romanian problem. If you add up the 1.2m people who live in the Province of Palermo, I'd say between 5-10 thousand are Romanian or MENA.

Well, foreign-born population in Torino (including illegals) is around 25% (they're involved in 40% of new births here) ...foreign population in Sicily is around 2-3%...

[P-Chan]

Se vuoi che ti dico che non esistono differenze te lo dico neh, questo però non lo rende un dato reale.

I numeri sono comunque stati raccolti da Ridolfo Livi sulle classi di leva 1859-1863 nel Regio Esercito.



Scusa, ma nell' altra pagina non hai riportato i dati dello stesso Livi suddivisi per regione? Io leggo 40%, 13.9%, 19%..., non ci sono regioni con il 50% e con 2-5%. Per cui ho chiesto dove posso trovare quelle percentuali che hai elencato. Nei libri di Livi non ho mai letto quei numeri.

[Peyrol]

Scusa, ma nell' altra pagina non hai riportato i dati dello stesso Livi suddivisi per regione? Io leggo 40%, 13.9%, 19%..., non ci sono regioni con il 50% e con 2-5%. Per cui ho chiesto dove posso trovare quelle percentuali che hai elencato. Perchè negli studi di Livi non ho mai letto quei numeri.

I didn't said ''there are entire regions around 50%'', but ''Probably there are some isolated zones with 50'', the same for the 2-5%.

The book is this:

"Renato Biasutti - Razze e popoli della Terra - UTET, 1941" ...and the datas are from the ''Dati raccolti da Ridolfo Livi sulle classi di leva 1859-1863 del Regio Esercito''.

[alfieb]

Messina:
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=407

2/32. So that's like 1/16 or 6.25%.

I didn't see a single one in the Agrigento thread with light eyes. Arab Coast.

[ABest]

"On a series of Macedonian Greeks measured in 1921, 14% had black hair, 67% had dark brown hair, 15% had brown hair, 3.5% had fair hair and 0.5% had red hair"

Margaret M. Hasluck; G. M. Morant. Biometrika, Vol. 21, No. 1/4. (Dec., 1929), pp. 322-336.

~~~~

Greeks from Pontus:

15% black, 52% brown, 28% "chatain", 4% blond (sample 1)
Dark brown 82.5%, Intermediate 12.5%, Blond 4.5%, Red 0.5% (sample 2)


Neophytos, Aristote G., Le grec due Nord-est de l' Asie Mineure au point de vue anthropologique, L' Anthropologie 2: 25-35, 1891

~~~~

I can't find the rest now, as some files have been lost from my computer.

However, I do remember studies from the same period showing southern Greece and several islands being relatively but insignificantly "lighter" than Macedonia, if I remember correctly.

Also, southeastern Crete is known to have been the lightest region of all of Greece in the past.

[P-Chan]

This is a 2010 study, it's obvious that the numbers are different since basically the internal south-north immigration in the 40s-60s culturally (and phenotypically) destroyed these lands.

2010??

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/4562291520_678f532076_z.jpg

this study is by Rodolfo Livi (Antropometria Militare), XIX century, it wasn't made in 2010

[Peyrol]

2010??

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/4562291520_678f532076_z.jpg

this study is by Rodolfo Livi, XIX century, it wasn't made in 2010

So, basically two contrasting studies which used random people. Who is right?

[Peyrol]

Btw, brown hairs by italian regions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Brown_hair_Italy.png

Blonde hairs by italian regions (Corsica is included):

http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/blond_hair_italy.gif


Red hais (note the old north-eastern borders):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/thumb/0/0f/Livi_Capelli_Rossi.jpg/250px-Livi_Capelli_Rossi.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I didn't see a single one in the Agrigento thread with light eyes. Arab Coast.

Enna had 6 out of 32.

[Comte Arnau]

Spain

Study 2 : Hoyos-Sánz

Fair-eyes color (includes blue, greenish and grey) :

Vasco-Navarra 39.2%
Aragón 34.9%
Castilla La Nueva 21.4%
Castilla La Vieja 21.1%
Baleares 21.0%
León 18.8%
Múrcia 16.9%
Extremadura 18.8%
Cataluña 14.5%
Asturias 19.1%
Valencia 12.1%
Galícia 12.3%
Granada 11.7%
Andalucía 10.7%


I find some of this data about North Italy/Spain to be exaggerated. I've read studies that showed that the pigmentation difference between Southern and Northern Italy/Spain to be sizable but rather small.

I don't think so. Before knowing Hoyos-Sanz's data, I already was under the personal impression that the Basque-Navarre-Aragon area was the most light-eyed in all of Iberia. When I got to know it, that just seemed to confirm it.

[ABest]

Btw, brown hairs by italian regions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Brown_hair_Italy.png

Blonde hairs by italian regions (Corsica is included):

http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/blond_hair_italy.gif


Red hais (note the old north-eastern borders):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/thumb/0/0f/Livi_Capelli_Rossi.jpg/250px-Livi_Capelli_Rossi.jpg

There it is! These are two of the maps I was talking about! The second image is not working, can you fix it? :)

[Reozek]

I think I found one of the studies I was referring to.

http://archhades.blogspot.com/2011_06_01_archive.html

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/4562291520_678f532076_z.jpg

I mean they show a difference between Sicily and Northernmost italy, but much smaller than some numbers posted here. Plus, they show N. Italy to be much "darker" than "50%" light. I don't know when this study was conducted though.

they are exactly the same data , for example Piemonte : 33.552 individuals , 13.369 have blue+gray eyes = 39.8% :rolleyes:

[P-Chan]

So, basically two contrasting studies which used random people. Who is right?

You said that was a study made in 2010, instead it's a label made by Rodolfo Livi in 1863, so I was right.

[Kastrioti1443]

Btw, brown hairs by italian regions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Brown_hair_Italy.png

Blonde hairs by italian regions (Corsica is included):

http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/blond_hair_italy.gif


Red hais (note the old north-eastern borders):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/thumb/0/0f/Livi_Capelli_Rossi.jpg/250px-Livi_Capelli_Rossi.jpg

how is that possible that north has more brown hair than south?

[Peyrol]

You said that was a study made in 2010, instead it's a label made by Rodolfo Livi in 1863, so I was right.

Se vedo scritto ''2010'' nel link cosa penso, che l'ha fatto topogigio?

Comunque se ricavi le percentuali i numeri sono esattamente quelli che ho postato io.

[Peyrol]

how is that possible that north has more brown hair than south?

Obviously yes, since ''other'' hairs in Sardegna and in some southern regions are ''Black''.

[ABest]

they are exactly the same data , for example Piemonte : 33.552 individuals , 13.369 have blue+gray eyes = 39.8% :rolleyes:

Oh, ok. I was looking at the black hair number, which was oddly low in Sicily. :p

Plus, I didn't go through the percentages.

[alfieb]

how is that possible that north has more brown hair than south?

We have much more black than they do.

[Sikeliot]

My hair is black. Or close to it .

[ABest]

I don't think so. Before knowing Hoyos-Sanz's data, I already was under the personal impression that the Basque-Navarre-Aragon area was the most light-eyed in all of Iberia. When I got to know it, that just seemed to confirm it.

I know it is. But by how much? Is the difference very large nowadays? That's what I was questioning, though I'm not very sure.

I was mostly referring to Italy btw, I've only read like one study about Spain ever. I just remember the difference between not massive, but still existant.

[Reozek]

France :

Évolution de la couleur des yeux des Français depuis la fin du XVIIe siècle.

1940 data -

North-east : blue 41% , gray 13% , dark 46%
Paris : blue 34% , 9 gray % , dark 57%
North-west : blue 29% , gray 20% , dark 51%
South-east : blue 25% , gray 11% , dark 64%
South-west : blue 23% , gray 14% , dark 63%

Bulgaria :

Contribution à l'étude anthropologique des bulgares

blue : 17,65%
gray : 22,59%
brown: 59,76%

plus green : 4,10%

Greece :

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055712

14% light eyes
86% dark "

Corsica :

Contribution à l'anthropologie des Corses : Anthropologie de la tête (suite)

dark eyes : 35,6%
intermediate : 41,8% (green [10,8%] , hazel , amber)
light : 22,6% (adding green = 33,4%)

[Peyrol]

I know it is. But by how much? Is the difference very large nowadays? That's what I was questioning, though I'm not very sure.

I was mostly referring to Italy btw, I've only read like one study about Spain ever. I just remember the difference between not massive, but still existant.


People just can't imagine that here the north south divide originated since roman times...just look at the linguistic groups...

http://italiano.sismondi.ch/lingua/Romance_20c_en.png/image


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Italy_-_Forms_of_Dialect.jpg




...we've also the La-Spezia-Rimini line, that divide eastern from western romance languages.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Western_and_Eastern_Romania.PNG

[poiuytrewq0987]

They're random occurrences. Light pigmentations are just more of an often occurrence in northern Europe.

[ABest]

Dienekes also has some more studies on Greece.

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/

Coon said that southeastern Crete had the lightest and tallest Greek population. Also, he states that some mountainous areas in central Greece were a bit lighter than the Greek average, if I remember correctly. For more information just go through the articles.

[alfieb]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Western_and_Eastern_Romania.PNG
I love how yet another map totally disses Malta. Won't even shade them black! Just leaves them off entirely while including Tunis. lol.

[Peyrol]

Dienekes also has some more studies on Greece.

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/

Coon said that southeastern Crete had the lightest and tallest Greek population. Also, he states that some mountainous areas in central Greece were a bit lighter than the Greek average, if I remember correctly. For more information just go through the articles.

I thought that tessaliots and epiriots were the taller/lighter, while dodecanesians and cyclades the ''darker''.

[Sikeliot]

I thought that tessaliots and epiriots were the taller/lighter, while dodecanesians and cyclades the ''darker''.

I thought so too. Everyone I know from Epirus is blue eyed and fair, although with darker hair.

[Peyrol]

I love how yet another map totally disses Malta. Won't even shade them black! Just leaves them off entirely while including Tunis. lol.


That's because a romance language developed from V to IX centuries in the whole Maghreb...a language totally disappeared, erased by arabic invasion and berber cultural genocide.

Maghrebi arab dialect still hold some romance words...''Quasr'' for ''City'' (from castrum) and Quas for ''cheese'' (from caseus, tuscan and old italian cacio).

[ABest]

I thought that tessaliots and epiriots were the taller/lighter, while dodecanesians and cyclades the ''darker''.

I've read that too. A lot of this is in Dienekes' articles btw! Also, I've read about the Pelopponesian pigmentation average being similar to that of Crete's overal average. Or that might have been about them clustering near each other genetically, I'm not sure! Also, it really depends on the island, but I think that, on average, hair/eye color of islanders is a bit darker than Epirotes, but not darker than some other mainlanders.

LOL, I have to go through these studies again, I've forgotten some of the details. But yeah, go through Dienekes' data if you're interested in Greece.

[Peyrol]

I've read that too. A lot of this is in Dienekes' articles btw! Also, I've read about the Pelopponesian pigmentation average being similar to that of Crete's overal average. Or that might have been about them clustering near each other genetically, I'm not sure! Also, it really depends on the island, but I think that, on average, hair/eye color of islanders is a bit darker than Epirotes, but not darker than some other mainlanders.

LOL, I have to go through these studies again, I've forgotten some of the details. But yeah, go through Dienekes' data if you're interested in Greece.


All the times i'm in Dodecanese, people there look like sicilians or calabrese...it's amazing...i don't know if some Dodecanesian island sent colonist in Sicily in the Second Expansion, but probably yes.

[Kastrioti1443]

I thought so too. Everyone I know from Epirus is blue eyed and fair, although with darker hair.

Epirots are not taller, but very light in eyes, tosk albanians have evan more light eyes than gheg highlanders.

These 2 albanian footballers come from Laberia, region of albanian Epirus:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5716/gericipijp8.jpg

http://answers.bettor.com/images/Articles/thumbs/extralarge/Igli-Tare-reveals-a-frustrating-transfer-deadline-day-for-Lazio-128346.jpg

[Sikeliot]

All the times i'm in Dodecanese, people there look like sicilians or calabrese...it's amazing...i don't know if some Dodecanesian island sent colonist in Sicily in the Second Expansion, but probably yes.

I don't frankly think mainland Greeks (except some southern Peloponnesians) look anything like Sicilians and Calabrese. But islanders do.

[Peyrol]

I found only that the sicilian City of Naxos was colonized by (obviously) naxos islanders.

( if someone can read italian this is the page http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_greca )

[ABest]

I don't frankly think mainland Greeks (except some southern Peloponnesians) look anything like Sicilians and Calabrese. But islanders do.

Islanders definitely do. However, I always perceived Peloponnesians and islanders as relatively similar looking. Maybe it's just me.

Anyway, there are pigmentation average differences between Greeks but not nearly as big as in bigger countries like Spain and Italy, I would assume.

Plus, the averages I posted about Macedonians and Pontic Greeks from the 19th century-early 20th century kinda support my point, since they don't really manifest any sort of great blondness at all.

I actually want to email Dienekes about this issue, I wonder what his opinion is.

[Sikeliot]

I think it's either

1) a higher retention of ancient Greek genes in Sicilians/Calabrese and Greek islanders versus high Albanian and/or Slavic influence in parts of mainland Greece AND Pontians being Hellenized Caucasians and Cypriots Hellenized Levantines

or

2) The Neolithic wave of migration that hit the Greek islands also got southern Italy but missed mainland Greece.

For the record Cypriots also appear more "familiar" in comparison to Sicilians than do mainland Greeks.

[alfieb]

I found only that the sicilian City of Naxos was colonized by (obviously) naxos islanders.

( if someone can read italian this is the page http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_greca )

I spent a week in Naxos so I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember the story all that well, but I believe it was destroyed and repopulated by others, hence why it is Giardini-Naxos, similar to Calatafimi-Segesta.

[ABest]

I found only that the sicilian City of Naxos was colonized by (obviously) naxos islanders.

( if someone can read italian this is the page http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_greca )

I see. BTW, I always thought that ancient Greeks looked a bit darker than modern Greeks. Would you agree?

[Sikeliot]

I see. BTW, I always thought that ancient Greeks looked a bit darker than modern Greeks. Would you agree?

Yes and no.

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them.
But Greece also has a lot of Pontians living there who moved from Pontos.. and Pontians are Hellenized Armenian-like people, thus bringing a racially alien and darker type into Greece.

[Peyrol]

I think it's either

1) a higher retention of ancient Greek genes in Sicilians/Calabrese and Greek islanders versus high Albanian and/or Slavic influence in parts of mainland Greece AND Pontians being Hellenized Caucasians and Cypriots Hellenized Levantines

or

2) The Neolithic wave of migration that hit the Greek islands also got southern Italy but missed mainland Greece.

For the record Cypriots also appear more "familiar" in comparison to Sicilians than do mainland Greeks.


This is a man speaking calabrian greek.

If you read comments, a lot of cypriots say ''wow our languages are very similar''


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqIhoshpotI

[Sikeliot]

I've found some Sicilians on 23andme, mostly in the Catania and Enna area, clustering near Cypriots.

[Reozek]

That's pretty much impossible to know.

unless geneticists test more pre-bronze age southern euros like Oetzi (before BB reflux , Urnfield and Hallstatt expansion) and then compare them with post-bronze age southern euros...

[ABest]

Yes and no.

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them.
But Greece also has a lot of Pontians living there who moved from Pontos.. and Pontians are Hellenized Armenian-like people, thus bringing a racially alien and darker type into Greece.

I see. Yeah, I do agree that lighter types have been introduced in every southern nation over the years.

Of course, some light characteristics are inherent in Med people but population movements are inevitable.

[Sikeliot]

I see. Yeah, I do agree that lighter types have been introduced in every southern nation over the years.

Of course, some light characteristics are inherent in Med people but population movements are inevitable.

Yes. But I also think to balance it out, more Greeks today look truly Armenoid than otherwise would because Pontic Greeks are Hellenized and cluster in the Caucasus, and have moved to (and mixed with) other Greeks.

[Peyrol]

I wish people would be interested in northern italian cultures as they're about southern Italy, lol...

[alfieb]

This is a man speaking calabrian greek.

If you read comments, a lot of cypriots say ''wow our languages are very similar''


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqIhoshpotI

Not to correct you again, but I believe you've posted him before.

He's from the Griko community of Puglia. The Calabrese Griko is a very different dialect.

[ABest]

This is a man speaking calabrian greek.

If you read comments, a lot of cypriots say ''wow our languages are very similar''


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqIhoshpotI

I think the fact that clusters of Greek speakers still exist in Italy is so touching. It is amazing! :)

[Peyrol]

Not to correct you again, but I believe you've posted him before.

He's from the Griko community of Puglia. The Calabrese Griko is a very different dialect.

Pardon, you're true...this is apulian greek (the ''griko''), not calabrian.

This is calabrian greek


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e-aOheCFbY


I think the fact that clusters of Greek speakers still exist in Italy is so touching. It is amazing! :)

Yes it's an amazing thing....but unfortunately the language is nearly extinct.

[Sikeliot]

It's too bad all of southern Italy isn't still speaking Greek like they should be!

[ABest]

Yes. But I also think to balance it out, more Greeks today look truly Armenoid than otherwise would because Pontic Greeks are Hellenized and cluster in the Caucasus, and have moved to (and mixed with) other Greeks.

Yeah. Nowadays, I would say Greece is rather homogeneous because Greeks from all over the place have married each other.

That is especially the case in Athens. No one is really an Athenian. Like, no one, seriously.

But that's the case all over Greece as well. That is why group classifications from northern vs southern Greece seem pointless to me. It is impossible to really know the mixed origins of many people in those photos.

[alfieb]

It's too bad all of southern Italy isn't still speaking Greek like they should be!

Know why that is?

The Greeks themselves were to "blame".

They were the stubbornnest, holding out as long as they could against Arab rule with the hope that the Roman Empire, their fellow Greeks, would save them before their cities fell.

It took a century to conquer them, and by then the Arabs were well-settled in the west, so they said fuck it and kept Palermo as the capital, when throughout all of history it had been Syracuse.

When the Normans came along, Palermo was humongous and one of the wealthiest cities on the planet, so it wasn't even a question where to go. Noto, near Syracuse, was the last Arab-held city to fall, twenty years after Palermo was captured.

The Normans and Germans embraced the Sicilian language, but if the capital had been in the East, who knows. Our people may still have been "Greeks" today.

[Sikeliot]

The Normans and Germans embraced the Sicilian language, but if the capital had been in the East, who knows. Our people may still have been "Greeks" today.

The reason I wish Sicilians still spoke Greek and identified as such is because I think there is something to be proud of in a continuous history and one language spoken continuously. Like, if we still spoke Greek we could be like, the Greeks settled, they are our people, and we still speak the same language we did since before Biblical times.

[alfieb]

The reason I wish Sicilians still spoke Greek and identified as such is because I think there is something to be proud of in a continuous history and one language spoken continuously. Like, if we still spoke Greek we could be like, the Greeks settled, they are our people, and we still speak the same language we did since before Biblical times.

Understandable, I was only giving the cause and effect. If Sicily didn't speak a Romance language similar to Italian, I don't think there'd be any question that it would never have been added to Italy.

On the other hand, it may very well have been invaded by the Turks if it remained majority-Greek Orthodox. Who knows, it could be divided like Cyprus today, or have an awful religious split like Bosnia or Albania.

[Sikeliot]

Best case scenario would be a Hellenic Sicily, like any other Greek island.

[ABest]

Best case scenario would be a Hellenic Sicily, like any other Greek island.

That would be amazing. Also southern Italy, up to Naples?

Am I asking for too much? :p

[Dombra]

Pardon, you're true...this is apulian greek (the ''griko''), not calabrian.

This is calabrian greek


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e-aOheCFbY

Does it have an Italian accent because its (obviously) located in Italy or did Greek affect the Latin accent long ago?


Yes it's an amazing thing....but unfortunately the language is nearly extinct.

[Peyrol]

Does it have an Italian accent because its (obviously) located in Italy or did Greek affect the Latin accent long ago?

Obviously this girl has an heavy calabrese inflession...the pronunciation of the ''s'' like a snake rattle.

[Sikeliot]

Where in Calabria is Greek still spoken? My Calabrese great grandmother came from Crotone. I am wondering if it's anywhere near that. Considering I have recent Greek relatives on 23andme.

[alfieb]

Where in Calabria is Greek still spoken? My Calabrese great grandmother came from Crotone. I am wondering if it's anywhere near that. Considering I have recent Greek relatives on 23andme.

Reggio. Closest province to Sicily.

[Peyrol]

Where in Calabria is Greek still spoken? My Calabrese great grandmother came from Crotone. I am wondering if it's anywhere near that. Considering I have recent Greek relatives on 23andme.

Red points

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pZdPsa0SCYo/TBjF_KMVs4I/AAAAAAAAAlw/gMFKcvGo6CA/s1600/Greco_calabro.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

Spain

http://w11.zetaboards.com/ethnodiversity/topic/7720154/1/

Study 2 : Hoyos-Sánz

Fair-eyes color (includes blue, greenish and grey) :

Vasco-Navarra 39.2%
Aragón 34.9%
Castilla La Nueva 21.4%
Castilla La Vieja 21.1%
Baleares 21.0%
León 18.8%
Múrcia 16.9%
Extremadura 18.8%
Cataluña 14.5%
Asturias 19.1%
Valencia 12.1%
Galícia 12.3%
Granada 11.7%
Andalucía 10.7%

You cannot compare them because they use different scales.

[Reozek]

You cannot compare them because they use different scales.

they are pretty much the same , in both studies light eyes are from pure blue to gray and green with some brown (Ojos garzos in spanish) hazel excluded...basques have about 19% of hazel and they are not counted as light otherwise Vasco-Navarra would be almost 60% light eyed...even in the study of Livi Hazel are classified as "brown"...

[Prince Carlo]

We and Ibericus have discussed this stuff for months. Those 2 studies use different scales and are not comparable. For examples Hoyoz-Sanz considers light eyes with brown sposts as light, unlike Livi.

[kabeiros]

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them. No, you have Slavic influence and you are still darker than most Greeks


But Greece also has a lot of Pontians living there who moved from Pontos.. and Pontians are Hellenized Armenian-like people, thus bringing a racially alien and darker type into Greece. Fuck off, mongrel troll. Pontic Greeks have more Greek ancestry than Sicilians, S/Italians and of course, you.

[Reozek]

We and Ibericus have discussed this stuff for months. Those 2 studies use different scales and are not comparable. For examples Hoyoz-Sanz considers light eyes with brown sposts as light, unlike Livi.

i believe Livi used a sort of Martin-Schultz scale (even if probably they weren't even born when Antropometria Militare was published) and he considered as light eyes those eye colors who correspond to 1 to 8 in the M.S. scale (pure blue to green with little yellow or brown) ...in this study about Sardinian pigmentation the percentage of light eyes correspond exactly with that of Livi : 13.9% (Martin Schutz scale 1 to 8) IMO it can't be a coincidence

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1983_num_10_2_3898

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%E2%80%93Schultz_scale

[Sikeliot]

Fuck off, mongrel troll. Pontic Greeks have more Greek ancestry than Sicilians, S/Italians and of course, you.

Maybe instead of spouting nonsense then, explain to me why Pontic Greeks on 23andme cluster near EliasAlucard (an ASSYRIAN) and where Armenians cluster, and not near any of the Greeks?

One of the posters also posted Pontians' Doug McDonald and Dodecad results and they came out like an 100% Armenian.

[Methusalem]

Light traits are not exclusively Northern European. Hell you are going to find light traits even in Socotra with no genetic affinity to Northern Europeans.

[ABest]

No, you have Slavic influence and you are still darker than most Greeks

Fuck off, mongrel troll. Pontic Greeks have more Greek ancestry than Sicilians, S/Italians and of course, you.

http://rickpdx.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ani-yeah-right.gif

ΝΑΙ. Σπάστα όλα.

[Kastrioti1443]

i believe Livi used a sort of Martin-Schultz scale (even if probably they weren't even born when Antropometria Militare was published) and he considered as light eyes those eye colors who correspond to 1 to 8 in the M.S. scale (pure blue to green with little yellow or brown) ...in this study about Sardinian pigmentation the percentage of light eyes correspond exactly with that of Livi : 13.9% (Martin Schutz scale 1 to 8) IMO it can't be a coincidence

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1983_num_10_2_3898

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%E2%80%93Schultz_scale

What was the scale that Coon used? According to him gheg highlanders have in average 45% light eyes.

[Reozek]

What was the scale that Coon used? According to him gheg highlanders have in average 45% light eyes.

i think the Martin scale (not Martin-Schultz) because if i remember correctly very light eyes in Coon's work are numbered 16 , 15 , 14 etc..

you can find it here at page 207 : http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1968_num_3_3_1417

[P-Chan]

i believe Livi used a sort of Martin-Schultz scale (even if probably they weren't even born when Antropometria Militare was published) and he considered light eyes those colors who correspond to 1 to 8 in the M.S. scale (pure blue to green with little yellow or brown) ...in this study about Sardinian pigmentation the percentage of light eyes correspond exactly with that of Livi : 13.9% (Martin Schutz scale 1 to 8) IMO it can't be a coincidence

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1983_num_10_2_3898

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%E2%80%93Schultz_scale

That's not true. Livi's survey realised in the XIX century didn't consider hazel, light brown and amber eyes as light eyes, but only blue, grey and green. While in the study regarding Sardinians by Cosseddu realised in 1983, the percentage of true light eyes (pure blue, grey and green) (based on Martin Shultz scale) is 16%.

this is instead the % including light and mixed eyes from the same study based on martin shultz scale:
http://oi41.tinypic.com/ajt9v9.jpg

[gregorius]

Yes and no.

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them.
But Greece also has a lot of Pontians living there who moved from Pontos.. and Pontians are Hellenized Armenian-like people, thus bringing a racially alien and darker type into Greece.

Dude pontian greeks are not hellenized Armenians, :picard1:

[Sikeliot]

Dude pontian greeks are not hellenized Armenians, :picard1:

They cluster near Armenians on 23andme and not Greeks.

[Kastrioti1443]

They cluster near Armenians on 23andme and not Greeks.

Because the greeks of Balkan are mostly balkan tribes.

[gregorius]

They cluster near Armenians on 23andme and not Greeks.

And georgians cluster with Iranian people, Sorry but i dont buy it.

[Prince Carlo]

That's not true. Livi's survey realised in the XIX century didn't consider hazel, light brown and amber eyes as light eyes, but only blue, grey and green. While in the study regarding Sardinians by Cosseddu realised in 1983, the percentage of true light eyes (pure blue, grey and green) (based on Martin Shultz scale) is 16%.

this is instead the % including light and mixed eyes from the same study based on martin shultz scale:


Of course if light-mixed eyes are considered as light, the percentage will grow.

[Sikeliot]

Because the greeks of Balkan are mostly balkan tribes.

It makes much more sense to assume that Pontic Greeks, living directly next to Armenia, are related to them.

[askra]

That's not true. Livi's survey realised in the XIX century didn't consider hazel, light brown and amber eyes as light eyes, but only blue, grey and green. While in the study regarding Sardinians by Cosseddu realised in 1983, the percentage of true light eyes (pure blue, grey and green) (based on Martin Shultz scale) is 16%.

this is instead the % including light and mixed eyes from the same study based on martin shultz scale:
http://oi41.tinypic.com/ajt9v9.jpg

that's correct. That percentage of pure light eyes is also confirmed from a previous study by the anthropologist Carlo Maxia entitled "LE CARATTERISTICHE DELLA PIGMENTAZIONE DEI CAPELLI, DELLE IRIDI E DELLA CUTE NEI GIOVANETTI DAI 6 AI 14 ANNI IN 123 COMUNI E FRAZIONI DELLA SARDEGNA":

blue 4,24%
grey 5,37%
green 6,27%

[gregorius]

It makes much more sense to assume that Pontic Greeks, living directly next to Armenia, are related to them.

Georgians live right above us for thousands of years, Yet we are not related

[Kastrioti1443]

It makes much more sense to assume that Pontic Greeks, living directly next to Armenia, are related to them.

It depends, gheg albanians and slavs have lived together for more than 1,400 years, and still ghegs do not have baltid at all.

[Übermensch]

Of course if light-mixed eyes are considered as light, the percentage will grow.

I don't know, but numbers for my region would be correct if also dark green-hazel eyes are included,there's no way light eyes are at 23% unless including dark green-hazel eyes,don't know about other regions though.

[Prince Carlo]

I don't know, but numbers for my region would be correct if also dark green-hazel eyes are included,there's no way light eyes are at 23% unless including dark green-hazel eyes,don't know about other regions though.

I am starting to think that Basilicata is lowering the real percentage of light eyes of Campania and Apulia. Just Kidding.

[Reozek]

That's not true. Livi's survey realised in the XIX century didn't consider hazel, light brown and amber eyes as light eyes, but only blue, grey and green. While in the study regarding Sardinians by Cosseddu realised in 1983, the percentage of true light eyes (pure blue, grey and green) (based on Martin Shultz scale) is 16%.

this is instead the % including light and mixed eyes from the same study based on martin shultz scale:


who said that livi considered Hazel eyes as light ? read again , i wrote the exact opposite...ps. actually it's 13.9% in both Livi and Cosseddu studies not 16%

my post:

"i believe Livi used a sort of Martin-Schultz scale (even if probably they weren't even born when Antropometria Militare was published) and he considered as light eyes those eye colors who correspond to 1 to 8 in the M.S. scale (pure blue to green with little yellow or brown)"

color 8 is a green with little Yellow or brown but it's not Hazel...

something like this one

33464

[ChocolateFace]

The answer to the original question is no.

Light traits in southern Europe is from Up types. And those UP types are native to southern Europe also.

[P-Chan]

who said that livi considered Hazel eyes as light ? read again , i wrote the exact opposite...ps. actually it's 13.9% in both Livi and Cosseddu studies not 16%

my post:

"i believe Livi used a sort of Martin-Schultz scale (even if probably they weren't even born when Antropometria Militare was published) and he considered as light eyes those eye colors who correspond to 1 to 8 in the M.S. scale (pure blue to green with little yellow or brown)"

color 8 is a green with little Yellow or brown but it's not Hazel...

Ok, I' m sorry, probably I didn't read correctly your post.

[Reozek]

The answer to the original question is no.

Light traits in southern Europe is from Up types. And those UP types are native to southern Europe also.

so the theory that nearly all the paleolithic population of Southern Europe was replaced by neolithic immigrants from the south-east is completely false ?

[ChocolateFace]

so the theory that nearly all the paleolithic population of Southern Europe was replaced by neolithic immigrants from the south-east is completely false ?

Yes. They mixed with each other.

[Peyrol]

Does really make some kind of differences if a region is 30 or 20% light eyed...?!?

[Comte Arnau]

Light traits in southern Europe is from Up types. And those UP types are native to southern Europe also.

If blue eyes are due to a mutation happened during the Neolithic revolution, I sort of doubt UP types are responsible for them in Southen Europe.

[Queen B]

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them.
That's one of the things I always laugh in this forum. that its the Slavic influence that lightens Greeks or a light Greek has Slavic influence.
Then, every dark Slav has Greek influence since they are geniounly light and we are geniounly dark? ;)
So, my mother, which is from Zakynthos, why she is light? Why there is a big amount of light Ionians? Or Sfakians?

[safinator]

That's one of the things I always laugh in this forum. that its the Slavic influence that lightens Greeks or a light Greek has Slavic influence.
Then, every dark Slav has Greek influence since they are geniounly light and we are geniounly dark? ;)
So, my mother, which is from Zakynthos, why she is light? Why there is a big amount of light Ionians? Or Sfakians?

Sfakians according to Coon resemble closely Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins, he linked them to Dorian invasions.

[wvwvw]

And your point is ? Dorians were Greeks:

"The Dorians (Greek: Δωριεῖς, Dōrieis, singular Δωριεύς, Dōrieus) were one of the four major Greek ethnē into which the Greeks, or Hellenes, of the ancient period considered themselves divided (along with the Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians).[1] Ethnos has the sense of ethnic group.[2] Herodotus uses the word with regard to them.[3] They are almost always referenced as just "the Dorians", as they are in the earliest literary mention of them in Odyssey,[4] where they already can be found inhabiting the island of Crete."

[Reozek]

The Mesolitich hunther gathereres are the main source of Northern Euro admixture in S.Europe .

then why Sardinia , who had been populated since the paleolithic and it's rather conservative , have only 14% of Northern Euro aDNA ?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0043759

[Reozek]

Sfakians according to Coon resemble closely Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins, he linked them to Dorian invasions.

more recently K.Kristiansen in "Europe before history "(p. 388) linked the Dorian migration with the Caka group of the Urnfield Culture (roughly western Hungary)

[Lábaru]

Does really make some kind of differences if a region is 30 or 20% light eyed...?!?

are you kidding? bigs and huge shitstorms have unleashed on The Apricity for much less than that.

[Peyrol]

are you kidding? bigs and huge shitstorms have unleashed on The Apricity for much less than that.

Corretto amico, ma fortunatamente non tutti siamo feticisti degli occhi azzurri/chiari o del pelo biondo, lol.

[ABest]

Sfakians according to Coon resemble closely Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins, he linked them to Dorian invasions.

Are you trying to link the Dorians with Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins? http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Zooey-DesChanel-Is-Confused-Gif.gif

Also, for everyone here, please note that the Dorian invasion has historicity but did not happen as the ancients described it, as no archaeological evidence exists for such an invasion. It most likely represents population movements within Greece rather than an invasion. In fact, the Dorian invasion was an attempt to explain how the remnants of Mycenaean Greece transitioned into the early Classical era through the Greek Dark Ages. In other words, it was more likely than not an attempt to explain the evolution of Mycenaean Greek traditions into the classical ones.

So don't try to depict "Dorians" as some sort of blond Ubermensch invading from the far-north or something.

[safinator]

Are you trying to link the Dorians with Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins? http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Zooey-DesChanel-Is-Confused-Gif.gif

Also, for everyone here, please note that the Dorian invasion has historicity but did not happen as the ancients described it, as no archaeological evidence exists for such an invasion. It most likely represents population movements within Greece rather than an invasion. In fact, the Dorian invasion was an attempt to explain how the remnants of Mycenaean Greece transitioned into the early Classical era through the Greek Dark Ages. In other words, it was more likely than not an attempt to explain the evolution of Mycenaean Greek traditions into the classical ones.

So don't try to depict "Dorians" as some sort of blond Ubermensch invading from the far-north or something.

I just quoted what he said, there's no personal opinion there.

[Baluarte]

are you kidding? bigs and huge shitstorms have unleashed on The Apricity for much less than that.

I think the obsession about irrelevant stuff like this, (which truth be told reminds me of women arguing about make-up colours) is the reason for which Apricity can't attract more and more cultured members for the political/historical/news sections :S

[ABest]

I just quoted what he said, there's no personal opinion there.

Oh, OK.

[Reozek]

Are you trying to link the Dorians with Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins? http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Zooey-DesChanel-Is-Confused-Gif.gif

Also, for everyone here, please note that the Dorian invasion has historicity but did not happen as the ancients described it, as no archaeological evidence exists for such an invasion. It most likely represents population movements within Greece rather than an invasion. In fact, the Dorian invasion was an attempt to explain how the remnants of Mycenaean Greece transitioned into the early Classical era through the Greek Dark Ages. In other words, it was more likely than not an attempt to explain the evolution of Mycenaean Greek traditions into the classical ones.

So don't try to depict "Dorians" as some sort of blond Ubermensch invading from the far-north or something.

it's a fact that in late mycenaean times cremation and central european type of weapons appeared in greece , however it's not 100% sure that these innovations were imported by the "ancestors of the Dorians" or rather by few northern immigrants that had been absorbed by the autochthonous population

http://books.google.it/books?id=zAY4we4LKQMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=it&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

[ABest]

it's a fact that in late mycenaean times cremation and central european type of weapons appeared in greece , anyways it's not 100% sure that these innovations were imported by the "ancestors of the Dorians" or rather by few northern immigrants that had been absorbed by the autochthonous population

http://books.google.it/books?id=zAY4we4LKQMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=it&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Yes, I agree, population movements from central Europe were inevitable at all times, though not at very large scales, as you said.

[Reozek]

I think the obsession about irrelevant stuff like this, (which truth be told reminds me of women arguing about make-up colours) is the reason for which Apricity can't attract more and more cultured members for the political/historical/news sections :S

this thread is actually focused on history (at least in the beginning) , % of blond hair , light eyes etc alone are almost irrelevant , just a curiosity , anyway they can help to trace migration happened in prehistoric/historical times..:)

[Cristiano viejo]

In my family,

My father: dark hair and brown eyes.
My mother: blonde hair and light green eyes.
My sister: blonde hair and brown eyes.
My son: blonde hair and blue eyes.
My nephew: blonde hair and blue eyes.
My paternal grandpas: both brown hair and eyes.
My maternal grandpas: he had light brown and green eyes, and she had dark hair and blue eyes.
My maternal uncles: Two of them are blonde and light green eyes. One of them dark and brown eyes.
My cousins: Two of them are blonde and light green eyes. Four of them are dark/brown eyes/hair.
Cousins of my mother: One of them is blonde hair and blue eyes. Three of them are brown hair/eyes.
Uncle of my mother: Brown hair and green eyes.
This is all my family that I know :noidea:
From 23 people, 11 of them have light traits.

[Jackson]

I think light traits have always been in southern Europe, although they will have no doubt been increased a bit if northerners came to settle in the south.

[Baluarte]

I think light traits have always been in southern Europe, although they will have no doubt been increased a bit if northerners came to settle in the south.

That is the simple truth.

Even in the Spanish ex-colonies light traits exist from the native stock of people. My mother has emerald green eyes, my great grandmother has bluegreen eyes, and even though I never met him, my great grandfather had light brown hair and blue eyes.

Other than marginal German blood in the region, no North European genetics exist.

[Jackson]

That is the simple truth.

Even in the Spanish ex-colonies light traits exist from the native stock of people. My mother has emerald green eyes, my great grandmother has bluegreen eyes, and even though I never met him, my great grandfather had light brown hair and blue eyes.

Other than marginal German blood in the region, no North European genetics exist.

True. According to IBD done last year i think, the Iberian peninsula has been relatively stable over the last few thousand years.

[Peyrol]

That is the simple truth.

Even in the Spanish ex-colonies light traits exist from the native stock of people. My mother has emerald green eyes, my great grandmother has bluegreen eyes, and even though I never met him, my great grandfather had light brown hair and blue eyes.

Other than marginal German blood in the region, no North European genetics exist.


There are also indigenous people with mixed/light eyes...

http://www.lenovae.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/indios1.jpg

[Baluarte]

For what I've seen, the lightest eyes eyes they have are medium or light brown, like that girl.

[Peyrol]

It depends also by population...i know some pure quechuas with almost black eyes...while some amazonians can have hazel eyes like this girl...don't mention also to the guaranì from the Chaco Paraguayo, but many of them are mixed with chaco germans so they aren't ''pure''.

President Alfredo Stroessner was 1/4 guarani himself and had azure eyes

[Reozek]

what about the diffusion of the gene for lactose digestion ? it seems that before the bronze age it was even less widespread than today in Southern europe

[Jackson]

what about the diffusion of the gene for lactose digestion ? it seems that before the bronze age it was even less widespread than today in Southern europe

I don't know about the particular gene, but Iberia does seem to have lower levels of lactose intolerance than most of the rest of southern Europe:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2m41smo.gif

[Prince Carlo]

^ Source of that map?

[Jackson]

Don't know actually, i'll see if i can find a more reliable one.

[Jackson]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9j8Ih7E-aUY/T-PXYxPoVKI/AAAAAAAAAZM/ZWXkgXy5Hkw/s1600/Predicted+Old+World+LP+phenotype+frequencies+based +on+frequency+data+for+the+-13,910+C%3ET+allele+only.png

[Prince Carlo]

That map shows the frequency and spread of the lactase persistence T-13910 allele of the LCT gene. HARDLY reliable.

EDIT Here is a map showing lactose persistence phenotype frequencies.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-snKmMS7WKpo/T-PZnbOkogI/AAAAAAAAAZk/741ftY2LOE0/s1600/Old+World+LP+phenotype+frequencies+based+on+all+ph enotype+frequencies.png

Apparently it lacks samples from the Balkans and South Eastern Iberia, so it could be wrong.

[Lábaru]

Is normal that Iberia to have a high tolerance to lactose because genetically is the area of ​​southern Europe with more genes from central/Atlantic area and northern Europe.

Anyway every map says something different, not very realiable.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2m41smo.gif
http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0306987709003703-gr5.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dRj9DN75euI/RexNkfGhRLI/AAAAAAAAAGA/rQvj2xEvC0E/s400/Lactase+map.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lab1zzlTcE1qa0uujo1_500.png

[Übermensch]

There are also indigenous people with mixed/light eyes...

http://www.lenovae.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/indios1.jpg

I suppose that's for european spanish influence...

[Cristiano viejo]

I suppose that's for european spanish influence...

That india I dont think she has spanish influence, frankly.

[Peyrol]

I suppose that's for european spanish influence...

This picture was taken in the early 90s and this girl is from a guanary tribe in the brazilian-paraguayan border...this tribe firstly met the ''civilization'' in 1985 so i really doubt that there are any euro influences...

[Damião de Góis]

I suppose that's for european spanish influence...

She is from Brazil. And looks 100% native.

[Reozek]

Is normal that Iberia to have a high tolerance to lactose because genetically is the area of ​​southern Europe with more genes from central/Atlantic area and northern Europe.



the question is when these genes appeared in Iberia ? :confused: from what i know in S.Europe the first migrations from the North since at least the mesolithic happened during the late copper age/early bronze age with the indoeuropeans :

early bronze age - Bell Beaker reflux from C.Europe (Proto-Celts ?)
late bronze age - Urnfield expansion from C.Europe (Proto-Celts , Italics , Illyrians ,Phrygians etc..)
early iron age - Hallstatt expansion (Celts)

[Prince Carlo]

Anyway every map says something different, not very realiable.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2m41smo.gif

Spare me your sarcasm. That map is unsourced and so unreliable.

Here is the source of the map posted by me.

A worldwide correlation of lactase persistence phenotype and genotypes
Yuval Itan1,2*, Bryony L Jones1, Catherine JE Ingram1, Dallas M Swallow1 and Mark G Thomas1,2,3

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/36

[Lábaru]

http://www.jacn.org/content/19/suppl_2/165S/F1.medium.gif
http://www.jacn.org/content/19/suppl_2/165S.full

[Prince Carlo]

^ That study looks like a mess. Apparently they have computed the average value from these 2 studies: De Ritis et al 1983 and Cavalli Sforza et al 1987.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/4/1086.full.pdf+html?ijkey=78dba15a2b05510d640142949 8aeebf86c2d578d&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Btw it's obvious that Ritis et al with only 9 samples is not very reliabe. Cavalli Sforza gives the value of 41% for S.Italians.

[Gospodine]

If 10% of SWA can make someone look Arab

... And where is the proof of this exactly?

[Neanderthal]

This picture was taken in the early 90s and this girl is from a guanary tribe in the brazilian-paraguayan border...this tribe firstly met the ''civilization'' in 1985 so i really doubt that there are any euro influences...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucism

[Luchon20102012]

About 55% of our population is composed by second-third generation southerners.

But, since the datas about eye colors are from a study of 1910, they were right.

Indeed, ethnic northern italians are considerably lighter than southern ones. Many venetians, piedmontese lombards or friulians i have met resemble austrians or swiss.

[Atlantic Islander]

No.

[Jackson]

No.

Well southern Europeans are depigmented by human standards so it only follows that much of the light features there will be naturally occurring. And given that there has been more recent movement there across the Mediterranean perhaps the question should be more like the other way round. Wouldn't surprise me if they were lighter a few thousand years ago than today.

[gregorius]

:laugh: reading the first page now, but im sure if i click on the last page its turned into a flameware

[Roy]

Yes and No. But generally No.

[Carlito's Way]

There are also indigenous people with mixed/light eyes...

http://www.lenovae.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/indios1.jpg

here is another native american with light eyes
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7zsCtp0QzDU/TlHNMBNRMgI/AAAAAAAAAk8/XVHPbiRNU4A/s1600/DHP_7315.jpg

[gregorius]

light traits in southern europe is due the levantines who colonized it,

[Ianus]

Minority tendences to light features there is also in the Mediterranean subrace. Also Alpine and Dinaric have this tendencies.

[istripador]

This picture was taken in the early 90s and this girl is from a guanary tribe in the brazilian-paraguayan border...this tribe firstly met the ''civilization'' in 1985 so i really doubt that there are any euro influences...

is well hard to believe in the border region and well populated. uncontacted tribes exist only in the Amazon! probably this girl comes from her, and she is not Guarani

[istripador]

She is from Brazil. And looks 100% native.

I'm curious! how do you know that your appearance is from someone 100% native?

[Smeagol]

Light traits in southern Europe are at least partially Indo-European in origin.

[Neanderthal]

Makes no sense when people claim that colour eyes mutated on the Caucasus 20'000 years ago, and then come with blue eyed Amazonians. I guess they mutanted in each and every corner of the world too. /sarcasm.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I'd assume light traits would be less frequent in Southern Europe if not for Northern European admixture, but they'd still exist to a degree. You see light pigmented West Asians after all, so why not Southern Europeans too?

I agree, like this 2 girls
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/_n_zps738e278e.gif
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/fghh_zps81293885.jpg
they are sisters
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/lsv4_n_zps6341e625.jpg
they have light eyes and light hair and are pale but their white ancestry is from Galicia, Spain.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It's more like the other way around and the dark traits have come in through waves of migration. Especially during bronze age collapse of 1000 BC, but also romans and greeks and byzantines took slaves, and had merchants from all around the world. That's why jews and greeks cluster somewhat, they are all kinda mashed together.

The rounder head germanic look and general smooth features of mediterranean are not the most ancient in europe, but the more archaic looks are. Like the larger faced Iberians, the Irish and Basques, the large headed nordics (which is what greeks used to look like) etc. etc.

When you realize how many skin genes there are and that they're all dominant, you see it's very hard to breed the darkness out, it just doesn't go away. It can in individuals but not populations.

[Damião de Góis]

I'm curious! how do you know that your appearance is from someone 100% native?

How do i know? It's just my opinion.

[Benacer]

It's more like the other way around and the dark traits have come in through waves of migration. Especially during bronze age collapse of 1000 BC, but also romans and greeks and byzantines took slaves, and had merchants from all around the world. That's why jews and greeks cluster somewhat, they are all kinda mashed together.


Especially during the bronze age collapse? :laugh: Where do you get these ideas from? Please tell me you aren't implying the "Sea peoples" have anything to do with it. Anyways, dark traits have been around for much longer before.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Especially during the bronze age collapse? :laugh: Where do you get these ideas from? Please tell me you aren't implying the "Sea peoples" have anything to do with it. Anyways, dark traits have been around for much longer before.

What an ignorant post. You are bit bit young and dumb to have so much confidence in your words.

Semitic tribes. Now google classic greek features and find out what that means. Oh, nordic, whoops. And greek toe, which hardly any greeks today have but is much more common to the west might mean something.

[Benacer]

What an ignorant post. You are bit bit young and dumb to have so much confidence in your words.
That's hilarious coming from you. And how old would you be?


Semitic tribes. Now google classic greek features and find out what that means. Oh, nordic, whoops. And greek toe, which hardly any greeks today have but is much more common to the west might mean something.How is that supposed to answer my question? And what does it have to do with the Bronze Age collapse? Greeks and many Europeans have genetic ties to the Middle East, which date far back to the Neolithic. This is well attested by archaeogenetics and by a simple analysis of cultural similarities between the Minoan and even the Mycenaean civilization (to a lesser degree) to the Fertile Crescent.

[Reozek]

Light traits in southern Europe are at least partially Indo-European in origin.

possibly...according with some sources about the bronze age in Italy , between the III and the II millennium b.c. there had been a complete replacement of the population, particularly in the Tuscany-Lazio area, where the population of the "Rinaldone culture" (composed mainly by dolico-mediterraneans and few brachycephals of possible eastern origin) dissapear rapidly , the Italics are believed to have migrated to Italy subsequently

[Gaston]

Not all light traits (eye and hair color) are related to [Northern] European ancestry in Southern Europeans because these traits are found in the Middle East and North Africa (at much lower frequency). However, there is a correlation in some cases like in Sardinians who have very low levels of light traits and are also one of the least North European-admixed people.