Sicilian was the main language of the island even under maghrebi domination.

[Peyrol]

Here the first recorded poem in old sicilian language, written in 1091 in Scicli, who basically talk about the explusion of the moors from the city:







Vinni in la Marina


Anno Domini nostri J. XP. MXCI, tempora quadragesime,

Vinni in la marina di li Mikenki, ora dicta Donnalucata, lu barb. Ammiro Belicani Saraxino, cum manio exercitu, per dixtruire omni phidili Kriptiani, et la nostra ixula, et lu barburu cani nun chi riuxio, chi lu populu di Xicli si moxi tuctu, e si armau, et accursi per costringherlo et farilo fughire, a quillo barbaru infidili: ma, videndo lo numiro di li infidili, grassi assai, se prostraro cum la fachia per terra, et pricando nos Xeniuri J. XP. et la Vi. de la Pietati, che essi camaru per darichi fortia et corajo, per dischiacare li barb. Saraxini, et illico et statim, videro in lu Chelu una nugola, che isprindea ut solis, cum dintra la Vi. MP. cum brandus in dextera, et chi rintronava a lo sou populo "en adsum, ecce me, civitas mea dilecta, protegam te dextera mea", si livaru di terra di un subito, et videro lo exercitu di li normandi, ut volociter acquile, per aiutarli et uniti tucti si moxiro ut fulminem supra quilli infidili et li destruxiro et fu tali la confuxioni et lo spavento, che si ucchisero ipsi stixi, ut more canis idrofobi; durau la punia quasi per uno jorno, et di poi li sacti xaxerdoti cantaru Tedeum laudamus, et lo Magnificat, accumpaniati di lo exercito, et la nocti tucti li normandi et tucto lo populo si rixtaro in lo dictu locu, per prigari et ringratiaru a Dio e Maria Vergine che li salvau di lu ecchidio di li infidili; la matina si arritrovao lu campu cum immenso numero di morti, at li barchi di li infidili tucti fugati, et poi si ringratiau lu gran Diu e la MP. Vi. et si chiamau, di li pii ss. saxerdoti, sata MP. Militum, pro siclensibus, et si stabeleo farichi la festa omni anno, in lo jorno sabato prechedente a la Dominica di passioni, jorno solenni di la punia, et cussi' fu liberata la nostra terra, per sempre amen S.T.L.

Scriptum in Tabula Ligni

Basically, lingusts have drawn some conclusions:

1) siculo arabic wasn't a widespread language, but only the language of the ruling elite
2) this latin test obviously had a lot of hellenisms (like the ''x'' which has to be pronunced ''Sc'' in modern sicilian)
3) some hellenistic dialects were still alive in the island during and even aftet moorish expulsion.
4) proto sicilian was the language of the common people

[Dombra]

How intelligible is the langauge today?

[Peyrol]

How intelligible is the langauge today?

I don't know, i'm not a sicilian speaker, but as romance speaker i can understand the general meaning of the text.

Maybe some sicilian native speakers can explain better the similarities.

[CrystalMaiden]

I thought Italian is the only language in Italy...

[askra]

It looks as the latin, except for the use of some prepositions and articles.

[Peyrol]

I thought Italian is the only language in Italy...

We're worst that Jugoslavia about languages...:lol:

http://geograficamente.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/lingue-italiane1.png

[CrystalMaiden]

We're worst that Jugoslavia about languages...:lol:

http://geograficamente.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/lingue-italiane1.png

I've had never heard any differences in your language.

[Peyrol]

It looks as the latin, except for the use of some prepositions and articles.

Yes.
Basically, look like ''modern'' sicilian + vulgar latin.

[alfieb]

The modern language:

Vinni ni la Marina

L’annu di nostru Signuri Gesù Cristu, 1091, tempu di quarèsima,

Vinni ni la marina di Micenci, ora ditta Donnalucata, lu bàrbaru Emiru Belcani Saracinu, cu nu granni asèrcitu, pri distrùggiri ogni fideli cristianu, e la nostra ìsula, e lu bàrbaru cani nun ci arrinisciu, picchì lu pòpulu di Scicli si muvivu tuttu, e si armau, e accurìu pri custringìrilu a fàrilu fujiri, ddu bàrbaru nfideli: ma taliannu lu nùmmuru dî nfideli, assai granni, si prustraru cu la facci pri terra, e prijàvanu a Nostru Signuri Gesù Cristu e la Vèrgini di la Pietati, ca avìanu nvucatu p'aviri forza e curaggiu, pri scacciari lu bàrbaru saracinu, e sùbbitu vìttiru ntô celu na nùvula, ca splinnìa comu lu Suli, e d'intra la Vèrgini Maria, cu na spata nni la manu dritta, ca dicìa forti a lu sò pòpulu: "en adsum, ecce me, civitas mea dilecta, protegam te dextera mea" "Ccà sugnu, cità mia pridiletta, t'havi a pruteggiri la me manu dritta!" Si jsaru di 'n terra pri sùbbitu, e vìttiru l’asèrcitu dî Nurmanni, cchiù viloci di l'àquila, ca vinìa 'n aiutu, e tutti pari nzemi si muveru comu lu fùlmini contru a li nfideli e li distruggeru, e fu tanta la cunfusioni e lu scantu, ca chiddi s'ammazzaru iddi stissi, comu cani dròfubbi; la battagghia durau quasi na jurnata sana, e doppu li santi sacirdoti cantaru lu Te Deum e lu Magnificat, accumpagnati di l’asèrcitu, e la notti tutti li Nurmanni e tuttu lu pòpulu arristaru nta ddu locu pri prijari e arringrazziari Diu e Maria Vèrgini, ca l'avìanu sarvati di l’accìdiu dî nfideli: la matina s'arritruvau lu campu cu mmensu nùmmiru di morti, e li varchi dî nfideli tutti fujuti, e appoi si ringraziau lu gran Diu e la Vèrgini Maria, e si chiamau, pri dicisiuni dî pii ss. sacerdoti, di chiamare "Santa Maria dî Mulici, pri li sciclitani", e si stabbilìu di fàricci la festa ogni annu, nta lu jornu dû sàbbatu ca pricedi la Dumìnica di passioni, jornu sulenni di la battagghia, e accussì fu libbirata la nostra terra, pri sempri amen S.T.L.

[Peyrol]

I've had never heard any differences in your language.

Because we usually speak standard italian between each others.

Standard italian is based on ancient tuscan, spoken in Florence in XII-XIV centuries and chosen as national language after the unification.


The language in my signature, for example, isn't standard italian.

[Peyrol]

The modern language:

Vinni ni la Marina

L’annu di nostru Signuri Gesù Cristu, 1091, tempu di quarèsima,

Vinni ni la marina di Micenci, ora ditta Donnalucata, lu bàrbaru Emiru Belcani Saracinu, cu nu granni asèrcitu, pri distrùggiri ogni fideli cristianu, e la nostra ìsula, e lu bàrbaru cani nun ci arrinisciu, picchì lu pòpulu di Scicli si muvivu tuttu, e si armau, e accurìu pri custringìrilu a fàrilu fujiri, ddu bàrbaru nfideli: ma taliannu lu nùmmuru dî nfideli, assai granni, si prustraru cu la facci pri terra, e prijàvanu a Nostru Signuri Gesù Cristu e la Vèrgini di la Pietati, ca avìanu nvucatu p'aviri forza e curaggiu, pri scacciari lu bàrbaru saracinu, e sùbbitu vìttiru ntô celu na nùvula, ca splinnìa comu lu Suli, e d'intra la Vèrgini Maria, cu na spata nni la manu dritta, ca dicìa forti a lu sò pòpulu: "en adsum, ecce me, civitas mea dilecta, protegam te dextera mea" "Ccà sugnu, cità mia pridiletta, t'havi a pruteggiri la me manu dritta!" Si jsaru di 'n terra pri sùbbitu, e vìttiru l’asèrcitu dî Nurmanni, cchiù viloci di l'àquila, ca vinìa 'n aiutu, e tutti pari nzemi si muveru comu lu fùlmini contru a li nfideli e li distruggeru, e fu tanta la cunfusioni e lu scantu, ca chiddi s'ammazzaru iddi stissi, comu cani dròfubbi; la battagghia durau quasi na jurnata sana, e doppu li santi sacirdoti cantaru lu Te Deum e lu Magnificat, accumpagnati di l’asèrcitu, e la notti tutti li Nurmanni e tuttu lu pòpulu arristaru nta ddu locu pri prijari e arringrazziari Diu e Maria Vèrgini, ca l'avìanu sarvati di l’accìdiu dî nfideli: la matina s'arritruvau lu campu cu mmensu nùmmiru di morti, e li varchi dî nfideli tutti fujuti, e appoi si ringraziau lu gran Diu e la Vèrgini Maria, e si chiamau, pri dicisiuni dî pii ss. sacerdoti, di chiamare "Santa Maria dî Mulici, pri li sciclitani", e si stabbilìu di fàricci la festa ogni annu, nta lu jornu dû sàbbatu ca pricedi la Dumìnica di passioni, jornu sulenni di la battagghia, e accussì fu libbirata la nostra terra, pri sempri amen S.T.L.

There was a vulgarization/evolution, but they're basically similar.

[Comte Arnau]

From what I see it's not the first time Easterners in the forum think that there is only one language spoken in each Western language. The myth that they were well-educated people seems to be something from the past... :rolleyes2:


About Sicilian, well, I'd say that, if it was born like all the Romance languages in the 7th-9th century and it is still spoken today, it's quite logical that it has been the most spoken language among the common people along all these centuries, even under foreign domination. For instance, I've read that there were Catalan noble families going to Sicily before the Vespers, and that by the time Catalan came to be used they had already assimilated and spoke Sicilian. Similar stories could be said, though, of most other Romance-speaking territories.

[Peyrol]

From what I see it's not the first time Easterners in the forum think that there is only one language spoken in each Western language. The myth that they were well-educated people seems to be something from the past... :rolleyes2:


About Sicilian, well, I'd say that, if it was born like all the Romance languages in the 7th-9th century and it is still spoken today, it's quite logical that it has been the most spoken language among the common people along all these centuries, even under foreign domination. For instance, I've read that there were Catalan noble families going to Sicily before the Vespers, and that by the time Catalan came to be used they had already assimilated and spoke Sicilian. Similar stories could be said, though, of most other Romance-speaking territories.

Buh, their post communist ignorance about the civilized part od Europe is legendary :lol:


The fact is that a lot of people here in this board believed that siculo-romanic magically appeared in the island after moorish expulsion, and didn't originated, as you pointed, like other romance languages (in the case of sicilian, latin with greek and berber substrates).

[Smaug]

Bloody hell, and then they say Portuguese is a distusting language...

[alfieb]

It didn't just appear out of nowhere, but it wasn't until the fifty-year reign of Fidiricu I ca 1200-1250 that it became known throughout Europe, and became a language of written poetry and literature and whatnot. He founded universities and emphasized our language's value by sponsoring Sicilian-language poets. His financial resources were hardly shabby, as Palermo was one of the largest cities in Europe, and he was the king of all of modern-day Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Israel, etc.

If I had to speculate, I'd say the majority in the East still spoke Greek at the time, but since the Normans set up shop in Palermo, the Western Sicilian culture forced it's way eastward.

[Sikeliot]

Well in eastern Sicily at this point, Greek was still the common language as it was in Calabria, since the Romans never Latinized that part of the island.

But western Sicilians would have been speaking a Latin-derived language that would have formed parallel to other Romance languages.

As for the text above, it looks like Latin to me with minor alterations. Certainly in the linguistic evolution process closer to Latin than to modern Sicilian.

[Sikeliot]

If I had to speculate, I'd say the majority in the East still spoke Greek at the time, but since the Normans set up shop in Palermo, the Western Sicilian culture forced it's way eastward.

Yes, this is true.

If the Normans settled more in the east, the Greek culture would have probably expanded west and the island re-Hellenized. I would have preferred that, since it would have led to greater historical continuity. But what's done is done.

[Peyrol]

As for the text above, it looks like Latin to me with minor alterations. Certainly in the linguistic evolution process closer to Latin than to modern Sicilian.


Well, that's the usual process who originated all the romanic langauges....just look at XI century piemontese:



Les desmes et les primicies li Chrestien feel Deu devent doner a sainte Eglise e as preveires et pauperibus, e devez saver por quei e per quel auctorité furent trovees. Tut premerement que Deus feist nule creature, sì fist dez ordines d'angeles. (...) Seignor frere, notre Sire dit en son Evangeli que bonaurai sun cil qui àn misericordia, quar il la troveran plenerement. Perqué dist nostre Seignor aquesta parola? Sapiai que pietà si est una de le vertuz qui munt est preciosa e acceptabel davant Deu; (...) Un eisemple direm d'un bon hom qui ot tres amìs. L'un era ric e l'autre era ric, mas non era sì ric cum era lo premer; lo terz era povre. Or quest bon hom, qui avìa questi trei amì, si era gastaldo d'un alt hom. Or aven que so ser, cui bailìa el tenea, s'irò cum lui per offensiun qu'el li avea faita. ...

...and now XI century tuscan (so, ''italian'')


Altissimu, onnipotente, bon Signore,

tue so’ le laude, la gloria e l’honore et onne benedictione.

Ad te solo, Altissimo, se konfàno et nullu homo ène dignu te mentovare.

Laudato sie, mi’ Signore, cum tucte le tue creature, spetialmente messor lo frate sole, lo qual’è iorno, et allumini noi per lui. Et ellu è bellu e radiante cum grande splendore, de te, Altissimo, porta significatione.

Laudato si’, mi’ Signore, per sora luna e le stelle, in celu l’ài formate clarite et pretiose et belle.

Laudato si’, mi’ Signore, per frate vento et per aere et nubilo et sereno et onne tempo, per lo quale a le tue creature dai sustentamento.

Laudato si’, mi’ Signore, per sor’aqua, la quale è multo utile et humile et pretiosa et casta.

Laudato si’, mi Signore, per frate focu, per lo quale ennallumini la nocte, et ello è bello et iocundo et robustoso et forte.

Laudato si’, mi’ Signore, per sora nostra matre terra, la quale ne sustenta et governa, et produce diversi fructi con coloriti flori et herba.

Laudato si’, mi’ Signore, per quelli ke perdonano per lo tuo amore, et sostengo infirmitate et tribulatione.

Beati quelli ke 'l sosterrano in pace, ka da te, Altissimo, sirano incoronati.

Laudato si’ mi’ Signore per sora nostra morte corporale, da la quale nullu homo vivente pò skappare: guai a quelli ke morrano ne le peccata mortali; beati quelli ke trovarà ne le tue santissime voluntati, ka la morte secunda no 'l farrà male.

Laudate et benedicete mi’ Signore' et ringratiate et serviateli cum grande humilitate


^

Both are basically an evolution of vulgar latin.

[Sikeliot]

Piemontese looks to my eyes a lot like a French dialect. Like I'd say it looks more like French or Catalan than like Italian.

[alfieb]

Piemontese looks to my eyes a lot like a French dialect. Like I'd say it looks more like French or Catalan than like Italian.

Your eyes are correct. It is a member of the same family as Catalan and Occitan, not Tuscan or Neapolitan.

[Peyrol]

Piemontese looks to my eyes a lot like a French dialect. Like I'd say it looks more like French or Catalan than like Italian.


Your eyes are correct. It is a member of the same family as Catalan and Occitan, not Tuscan or Neapolitan.


Well, this is XI century piemontese and obviously is more ''frenchized'' than ''modern'' one....but yes, it isn't an italo-dalmatian language as tuscan, neapolitan, sicilian and/or romanian (the category included also the died dalmatian language), but a gallo-romance one.

[Comte Arnau]

As for the text above, it looks like Latin to me with minor alterations. Certainly in the linguistic evolution process closer to Latin than to modern Sicilian.

Not at all. That text is clearly Romance already.

[Peyrol]

Not at all. That text is clearly Romance already.

The first romance written in Italy is from Verona, IX century...protovenetian? I don't think, sound heavy romano-tuscan...


Se pareba boves, alba pratàlia aràba
et albo versòrio teneba, et negro sèmen seminaba


EDIT: i read now that the original document was found in Verona, but was...from Girona or Toledo...!?!?

[Sikeliot]

For the record, the Sicilian language looks and seems visibly closer to Romanian than to Spanish/Portuguese, except for the Slavic influence in Romanian.

I think Spanish and Portuguese have more Arabic loanwords than Sicilian does too.

[Twistedmind]

As for the text above, it looks like Latin to me with minor alterations. Certainly in the linguistic evolution process closer to Latin than to modern Sicilian.
Not at all, someone who knows Latin (in this case me) could not understand it.

[Peyrol]

Not at all, someone who knows Latin (in this case me) could not understand it.

Well, latin loandwords are very visibles, but the language is modified, because is a romance language and not a latin regional variation, as probably was in roman times.

[Twistedmind]

Well, latin loandwords are very visibles, but the language is modified, because is a romance language and not a latin regional variation, as probably was in roman times.

Yes, it is verry easy to identify loans from Medieval Latin, but concerning text as whole, I cant understand it, I could guess meaning of some words, but it is not udnerstanding.
Also, thanks for making that notice about regional variant of Vulgar Latin, people offten forget that when they speak about origins of Romance languages, it is not tree, with forking from Classical Latin or some common form of Vulgar, but more bush going from same basis of local variants of Vulgar Latin. :)

[Comte Arnau]

The first romance written in Italy is from Verona, IX century...protovenetian? I don't think, sound heavy romano-tuscan...

EDIT: i read now that the original document was found in Verona, but was...from Girona or Toledo...!?!?

Girona or Toledo? Hmm, maybe found there, but written by someone from the Italian Peninsula, I guess.

That type of text is great to see the very first stage of Romance.

Same with these: :)

Proto-French:
Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo et in aiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dist, in o quid il mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai, qui meon vol cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit.

Proto-Spanish:
...in loco que uocitant Elzeto cum fueros de totas nostras absque aliquis uis causa, id est, de illa costegera de Valle Conposita usque ad illa uinea de Ual Sorazanes et deinde ad illo plano de Elzeto et ad Sancta Maria de Uallelio usque ad illa senra de Pobalias, absque mea portione, ubi potuerimus inuenire, et de illas custodias, de illas uineas de alios omnes que sunt de alios locos, et omnes que sunt nominatos de Elzeto, senites et iubines, uiriis atque feminis, posuimus inter nos fuero que nos fratres poniamus custodiero de Sancta Maria de Valle Conpossita...

Proto-Catalan:
per mal che Mir Arnall m·avia fait et dict a mi et a ma muler. Rancur-me quar desmentist ma mulier ante me e de las folias que li dexist davant me. E sso rancurós de Guilelm Arnal quar fed conveniencia de la mia onor ab suo fratre senes lo men consel, e fforon-ne judicis donads et aculids et Mir Arnall fer no·ls me volg. Rancur-me de I bou de Oliba d·Ares e no li vol redre. Rancur-me de I vaca de Guilelm Oler, no la vol redre. Et rancur-me de Mir Arnall de la casa de Botxera che s’a presa e m’a tolta et non debet abere nisi solum decimum. He rancur-me de Mir Arnall quar d·altra guisa elegit baiulum en la onor de Guilelm Arnal sino con el o mannà. Et son rancurós de les toltes e de les forces que fa en la mea onor. Rancur-me’n de la cavalleria de Mir Guilabert qui no m·és servida.

Proto-Leonese:
Nodicia de /kesos que /espisit frater /Semeno jn labore /de fratres jn ilo ba /celare /de cirka Sancte Ius /te kesos U jn ilo /alio de apate /II kesos en [que] /puseron ogano /kesos IIII jn ilo /de Kastrelo, I /jn ila vinia majore ||| que lebaron en fosado /II, ad ila tore /que baron a Cegia /II quando la talia- /ron ila mesa II que /lebaron Lejione II /..s...en /u...re... /...que... /...c... /...e...u /...alio (?) /... /g... Uane Ece alio ke le /ba de sopbrino de Gomi /de do...a... IIII que espi /seron quando llo rege /uenit ad Rocola /I qua salbatore ibi /uenit

Proto-Aragonese:
Cono aiutorio de nuestro dueno dueno Christo, dueno salbatore, qual dueno get ena honore et qual duenno tienet ela mandatione cono patre cono spiritu sancto enos sieculos delo sieculos. Facanos Deus Omnipotes tal serbitio fere ke denante ela sua face gaudioso segamus.

[Peyrol]

Proto-catalan and proto-aragonese are the languages with more similarities with the modern equivalents...protocastillian sound...uh, occitan.

[P-Chan]

Sicilian:
Tutti li òmini násciunu lìbbiri e avali ntâ dignitati e ntî dritti. Iddi sunnu addutati di raciuni e di cuscenza e hannu a travagghiari nzèmmula cû spìritu dâ fratirnitati.


Italian:
Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza.

Romanian:
Toate ființele trăitoare se vindecă în liniște și lafel în demnitate și în drepturi. Ele sunt înzestrate cu rațiune și conștiință și trebuie să sefacă unele față de altele în duhul fraternității.




I don't see any similarities with Romanian.

[Peyrol]

Yes, it is verry easy to identify loans from Medieval Latin, but concerning text as whole, I cant understand it, I could guess meaning of some words, but it is not udnerstanding.
Also, thanks for making that notice about regional variant of Vulgar Latin, people offten forget that when they speak about origins of Romance languages, it is not tree, with forking from Classical Latin or some common form of Vulgar, but more bush going from same basis of local variants of Vulgar Latin. :)

In Pompei (Neaples) you can see cleary the ancient regional variation...in a wall there is a written ''Chilla foemmena puta est'' ( :lol:), instead of ''Illa foemena'' ... modern neapolitans says ''Chilla femmena''...

[Peyrol]

There aren't similarities between romanian and sicilian.

[Peyrol]

For the record, the Sicilian language looks and seems visibly closer to Romanian than to Spanish/Portuguese, except for the Slavic influence in Romanian.

I think Spanish and Portuguese have more Arabic loanwords than Sicilian does too.


They aren't similar...sicilian is isolated both from romanian and from the iberian languages.

Obviously we're talking about a members of only-one family (the romance languages).

[alfieb]

Like Romanian, Sicilian developed from Vulgar Latin by itself. Italian didn't exist. Tuscan wasn't well-established as a literary language until the Renaissance, while as you've demonstrated, proto-Sicilian had been written during the Arab era.

[Twistedmind]

Every single Romance language was developed from Vulgar Latin. And lol, Dante wrote in Tuscan. Tuscan and Sicilan literature trived approximatley in same time.

[alfieb]

Every single Romance language was developed from Vulgar Latin. And lol, Dante wrote in Tuscan. Tuscan and Sicilan literature trived approximatley in same time.

Bullshit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_School


What distinguishes the Sicilian School from the troubadours, however, is the introduction of a kinder, gentler type of woman than that found in their French models; one who was nearer to Dante's madonnas and Petrarch's Laura, though much less characterised psychologically. The poems of the Sicilians hardly portray real women or situations (Frederick's song cannot be read as autobiographical), but the style and language are remarkable, since the Sicilians (as Dante called them) created the first Italian literary standard by enriching the existing vernacular base, probably inspired by popular love songs, with new words of Latin and Provençal origin.


Giacomo da Lentini is also widely credited by scholars (as Francesco Bruni, Cesare Segre et al.) for inventing the sonnet, a literary form later perfected by Dante and, most of all, Petrarch


Such affixes would be then adopted by Dante and his contemporaries, and handed on to future generations of Italian writers. Dante's styles illustre, cardinale, aulico, curiale were partly developed from his close study of the Sicilian School which he quotes widely in his studies, especially in his De Vulgari Eloquentia.

[Peyrol]

Every single Romance language was developed from Vulgar Latin. And lol, Dante wrote in Tuscan. Tuscan and Sicilan literature trived approximatley in same time.

Correct, althoug standard italian was developed on Renaissance florentine and not in Dante's one.

Btw, an italian speaker could read without any problem the Dante's works.

[Twistedmind]

Bullshit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_School
Lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_literature#First_Tuscan_literature

Anyway, Dante, who are by no means, founder of Tuscan literature, lived just few decades after flourishment of Sicilian school. And by the way, he bears greater significance than them.

[alfieb]

My point was that Dante was influenced by Sicilians, not the other way around.

As this thread has already shown, Sicilian language by far predates the 13th century.

[Twistedmind]

My point was that Dante was influenced by Sicilians, not the other way around.
Verry wrong point. They were romantic poets, he was writing works of epic poetry. He did learn about their works in youth, but it does not mean a lot.


As this thread has already shown, Sicilian language by far predates the 13th century.
Yes, same as all other Romanc languages which were forrmed in Dark ages (period between 5th and 9th centuries)

[Peyrol]

There were a lot of tuscan writers before Dante... Farinata Degli Uberti for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farinata_degli_Uberti

[Peyrol]

Up for all the ''arabwasthemainlanguage'' idiots of this board.

[Comte Arnau]

They aren't similar...sicilian is isolated both from romanian and from the iberian languages.


I agree, they aren't similar. But maybe Sikeliot meant that Sicilian is within the group east of the La Spezia-Rimini line.

However, while Sicilian hasn't been influenced by Romanian, it has by Spanish, Catalan and other West Romance languages. According to Giarrizzo's Etymological Dictionary of Sicilian:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Lingua_siciliana.png/250px-Lingua_siciliana.png
Red is Latin, Blue is Greek, Yellow is Spanish, Green is Arabic, Brown is French and Norman, Purple is Catalan and Light Blue is Provençal.

[Sikeliot]

Most of Sicily would have spoken Greek under the Moorish conquest, actually.

Sicilian language in terms of grammar and core vocabulary would have more in common with Romanian. It might have Spanish influences, but no one cares about them any more than we care about Arabic influences in Spanish.

[Numidianguy]

Wow it's a surprise daedel1 hasn't commented yet about how the Moors were apparently black

[Peyrol]

Most of Sicily would have spoken Greek under the Moorish conquest, actually.

Sicilian language in terms of grammar and core vocabulary would have more in common with Romanian. It might have Spanish influences, but no one cares about them any more than we care about Arabic influences in Spanish.

Greek was heavy declining during berber invasion, however still spoken.
BTW, proper sicilian developed before moorish conquest and after the expulsion became the dominant language of the region still spoken nowadays (even if it's declining in favor of standard italian).

Phylologically is closer to romanian than to iberians and other galloromance languages, but the sound is totally different.


Or you hear similarities? I can't sincerely...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sn4oW8X-Gk



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKkHUIlTMHU

[Sikeliot]

Greek was heavy declining during berber invasion, however still spoken.
BTW, proper sicilian developed before moorish conquest and after the expulsion became the dominant language of the region still spoken nowadays (even if it's declining in favor of standard italian).

The interesting thing is that people (including myself) often say Greek and Spanish sound similar when you don't know either one and just hear the languages themselves from afar, so I can't for sure say what the "Sicilian" accent is, but alfieb once said that he's heard comparisons drawn to Eastern European Jews *Yiddish speakers* speaking English, which might imply a Germanic influence on the Sicilian accent.

I also sometimes do think Greeks from Crete have a similar accent, in English, as a Sicilian speaking English.

[Peyrol]

The interesting thing is that people (including myself) often say Greek and Spanish sound similar when you don't know either one and just hear the languages themselves from afar, so I can't for sure say what the "Sicilian" accent is, but alfieb once said that he's heard comparisons drawn to Eastern European Jews *Yiddish speakers* speaking English, which might imply a Germanic influence on the Sicilian accent.

I also sometimes do think Greeks from Crete have a similar accent, in English, as a Sicilian speaking English.

This is calabro-apulian greek (second video with subtitles and some little parts in italian):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrV0T9n-X4



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww


Greek members of this board told me that is heavy archaic and sound cypriot and probabily like the greek spoken in Byzantion before became ''Istambul''

[Sikeliot]

This is a Sicilian accent in English. It both reminds me of a Yiddish speaker and a Greek.

EDIT: Wow. The Sicilian guy speaking in this link below, is 20 years old.. my age. I thought it was an old man. Same with the Greek. I swear, Sicilian accents make anyone sound 70+ years old.

http://accent.gmu.edu/searchsaa.php?function=detail&speakerid=733


Compare to a Roman:
http://accent.gmu.edu/searchsaa.php?function=detail&speakerid=1114


and a Greek:
http://accent.gmu.edu/searchsaa.php?function=detail&speakerid=195

[Rudel]

The Sicilian text is Romance, and it doesn't look like Latin (despite latinisms and Latin-like phraseology sometimes).
It's pretty easy to read for me, more than modern Sicilian (I blame lazy-ass writing conventions).

Just compare with the first bit of the Gesta Francorum (same era, first hand account in pig Medieval Latin of the First Crusade by a knight of the entourage of Bohémont de Tarente) :

Cum iam appropinquasset ille terminus quem dominus Iesus cotidie suis demonstrat fidelibus, specialiter in euangelio dicens: "Si quis uult post me uenire, abneget semetipsum et tollat crucem suam et sequatur me" facta est igitur motio ualida per uniuersas Galliarum regiones, ut si aliquis Deum studiose puroque corde et mente sequi desideraret, atque post ipsum crucem fideliter baiulare uellet, non pigritaretur Sancti Sepulchri uiam celerius arripere. Apostolicus namque Romanae sedis ultra montanas partes quantocius profectus est cum suis archiepiscopis, episcopis, abbatibus, et presbiteris, coepitque subtiliter sermocinari et predicare, dicens, ut si quis animam suam saluam facere uellet, non dubitaret humiliter uiam incipere Domini, ac si denariorum ei deesset copia, diuina ei satis daret misericordia. Ait namque domnus apostolicus 'Fratres, uos oportet multa pati pro nomine Christi, uidelicet miserias, paupertates, nuditates, persecutiones, egestates, infirmitates, fames, sites et alia huiusmodi, sicuti Dominus ait suis discipulis: "Oportet uos pati multa pro nomine meo", et: "Nolite erubescere loqui ante facies hominum; ego uero dabo uobis os et eloquium", ac deinceps: "Persequetur uos larga retributio". Cumque iam hic sermo paulatim per uniuersas regiones ac Galliarum patrias coepisset crebrescere, Franci audientes talia protinus in dextra crucem suere scapula, dicentes sese Christi unanimiter sequi uestigia, quibus de manu erant redempti tartarea. Iamiamque Galliae suis remotae sunt domibus.


Girona or Toledo? Hmm, maybe found there, but written by someone from the Italian Peninsula, I guess.

That type of text is great to see the very first stage of Romance.

Same with these: :)

Proto-French:
Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo et in aiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dist, in o quid il mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai, qui meon vol cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit.

I personally consider the status of the Oath of Strasbourg as proto-French to be dubious. To me the Cantilène de sainte Eulalie is a more viable option :

Buona pulcella fut Eulalia.
Bel auret corps bellezour anima.
Voldrent la ueintre li d[õ] inimi.
Voldrent la faire diaule seruir.
Elle nont eskoltet les mals conselliers.
Quelle d[õ] raneiet chi maent sus en ciel.
Ne por or ned argent ne paramenz.
Por manatce regiel ne preiement.
Niule cose non la pouret omq[ue] pleier.
La polle sempre n[on] amast lo d[õ] menestier.
E por[ ]o fut p[re]sentede maximiien.
Chi rex eret a cels dis soure pagiens.
Il[ ]li enortet dont lei nonq[ue] chielt.
Qued elle fuiet lo nom xp[ist]iien.
Ellent adunet lo suon element
Melz sostendreiet les empedementz.
Quelle p[er]desse sa uirginitet.
Por[ ]os suret morte a grand honestet.
Enz enl fou la getterent com arde tost.
Elle colpes n[on] auret por[ ]o nos coist.
A[ ]czo nos uoldret concreidre li rex pagiens.
Ad une spede li roueret tolir lo chief.
La domnizelle celle kose n[on] contredist.
Volt lo seule lazsier si ruouet krist.
In figure de colomb uolat a ciel.
Tuit oram que por[ ]nos degnet preier.
Qued auuisset de nos Xr[istu]s mercit
Post la mort & a[ ]lui nos laist uenir.
Par souue clementia.


Every single Romance language was developed from Vulgar Latin.
From different vulgar Latins.


And lol, Dante wrote in Tuscan. Tuscan and Sicilan literature trived approximatley in same time.
Tuscan is posterior to Sicilian in terms of literary maturity. It heavily drew from Occitan and Sicilian traditions (after all Petrarca made the sonnet, a Sicilian invention, popular).
Tuscan almost wrote his Commedia in Occitan, hopefully for Italy he didn't.


What distinguishes the Sicilian School from the troubadours, however, is the introduction of a kinder, gentler type of woman than that found in their French models; one who was nearer to Dante's madonnas and Petrarch's Laura, though much less characterised psychologically. The poems of the Sicilians hardly portray real women or situations (Frederick's song cannot be read as autobiographical), but the style and language are remarkable, since the Sicilians (as Dante called them) created the first Italian literary standard by enriching the existing vernacular base, probably inspired by popular love songs, with new words of Latin and Provençal origin.
I prefer our kind of women : they rip your heart apart and make your soul bleed :D
(Ironically, the historical woman behind Petrarca's Laura, Laure de Sade, was a poor blooded provençale and was born in Noves, not far from where I live.)


Btw, an italian speaker could read without any problem the Dante's works.
The consistency of Tuscan since the XIVth century is pretty impressive.


This is calabro-apulian greek (second video with subtitles and some little parts in italian):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww
Encardia is a pretty good band. And Griko is pretty badass.


http://youtu.be/abCf9OHTAmA

[Peyrol]

Cantilène de sainte Eulalie remids me a bit of the Sermoni Subalpini...

[Twistedmind]

From different vulgar Latins.


Tuscan is posterior to Sicilian in terms of literary maturity. It heavily drew from Occitan and Sicilian traditions (after all Petrarca made the sonnet, a Sicilian invention, popular).
Tuscan almost wrote his Commedia in Occitan, hopefully for Italy he didn't.

Yes, I agree with your points, just, mine sentences were directed at alfieb's message:


Like Romanian, Sicilian developed from Vulgar Latin by itself. Italian didn't exist. Tuscan wasn't well-established as a literary language until the Renaissance, while as you've demonstrated, proto-Sicilian had been written during the Arab era.

Tuscan literature reached its peak, under Dante, which is not that long after peak of Sicilian poetry, in time of Emperor Friedrich II. And all Romance langueages, had their own indipendent evolution, not something specific for Romanian and Sicilian languages exclusively.

[Peyrol]

Yes, I agree with your points, just, mine sentences were directed at alfieb's message:



Tuscan literature reached its peak, under Dante, which is not that long after peak of Sicilian poetry, in time of Emperor Friedrich II. And all Romance langueages, had their own indipendent evolution, not something specific for Romanian and Sicilian languages exclusively.

This (approssimative) map show all the romance families which developed after Rome's fall even the extinct ones or some (like rhaeto-romance) which have reduced their areas (note also in green colonial venetian varieties):

http://imageshack.us/a/img822/2833/42id.png

[Comte Arnau]

Sicilian language in terms of grammar and core vocabulary would have more in common with Romanian.

Now that is simply false.