Wilno je Polska [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Peterski

10-26-2014, 11:49 AM

Poland took Wilno (Vilnius) from Russia after WW1 - true. But Lithuania took Władysławów (Vladislavovas), Kalwaria (Kalvarija), Wyłkowyszki (Vilkaviškis), Mariampol (Marijampolė) and Kowno (Kaunas) from Poland.

Between 1807 - 1918 all those cities and counties belonged to Poland (the Duchy of Warsaw & Congress Kingdom of Poland). Kowno was a city split in half by border river Neman - 1/2 belonged to the Duchy of Warsaw & Congress Poland and 1/2 to the Russian Empire.

=============================

The ethnic map posted by Tiger above is manipulated (it underestimates the % of Poles in eastern regions).

But even if Poles were a minority in some part of Vilna Governorate, then they were minority to Belarusians - not to Lithuanians.

Here is a map showing the extent of Slavs (both Poles and Belarusians count here, while Lithuanians don't since they are Balts):

http://s29.postimg.org/7x7p8nwjb/Slavs_outside_Russians.png

Author of the map forgot about Burgenland Croats, Carinthian-Styrian Slovenes and Slovincians though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland_Croats

http://www.minorityrights.org/1884/austria/slovenes-of-carinthia-and-styria.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carinthian_Slovenes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovincian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

======================================

Counties where Poles were more than 1/3 inhabitants before WW1 (often those counties were heavily ethnically mixed, for example: Poles 38%, Jews 16%, Belarusians 31%, Lithuanians 10%, Others 5%, etc. - meaning that Poles were not absolute, but still relative majority):

http://s30.postimg.org/t7ea8q0qp/Admin_div_of_future_PL_1900.png

Peterski

10-26-2014, 05:29 PM

The first map I posted above is from "The new world problems in political geography" by Isaiah Bowman, New York 1921:

The book is available online (links below) - there are 215 maps in this book (very interesting):

https://archive.org/details/newworldproblems00bowmuoft

https://archive.org/details/newworldproblem01bowmgoog

Fourth Edition from 1928 had even more maps - 257:

http://designarchives.aiga.org/#/ent...al-geography/1

Contents of the 1921 Edition of Bowman's book:

http://s18.postimg.org/bsi2irck9/Contents.png

FeederOfRavens

10-26-2014, 05:37 PM

FeederOfRavens

10-26-2014, 05:42 PM

Anyways, when Vilnius was founded it was Lithuanian and now it is today so nothing needs to change.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 06:12 PM

Beginning of the 20th century . Lithuanian book - Lietuvos rytai, Vilnius 1993 . :p

http://s28.postimg.org/lx62vwg9p/bl_map.jpg
http://s28.postimg.org/ndhle1j6l/bl_map2.gif

Hevo

10-26-2014, 06:14 PM

Beginning of the 20th century . Lithuanian book - Lietuvos rytai, Vilnius 1993 . :p

http://s28.postimg.org/lx62vwg9p/bl_map.jpg
http://s28.postimg.org/ndhle1j6l/bl_map2.gif

So, Вiльня гэта Беларусь?:P

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 06:20 PM

So, Вiльня гэта Беларусь?:P

But don't mention in front of Lithuanians. They get offended. ;)

Hercus Monte

10-26-2014, 07:56 PM

So, Вiльня гэта Беларусь?:P
ня

fun note though http://www.wprost.pl/ar/102415/Nie-ma-jak-Lwow/?pg=0

Peterski

10-26-2014, 08:47 PM

Beginning of the 20th century. Lithuanian book - Lietuvos rytai, Vilnius 1993.

There were no Belarusian-speakers in that region, that was North-Eastern Kresy dialect of Polish with "eastern accent". Polish and Belarusian languages are quite similar (both are Slavic - unlike Lithuanian), so I forgive you your (or rather the book's you quoted) mistake.

I also recommend you to check the results of German population censuses of 1916 and 1917 in the Vilna Region.

For example numbers from German data for the city of Vilno were as follows:

3) According to 1916 census (German census):

Total population: 140,890 - including:

Poles - 70,629 (50,2%)
Jews - 61,265 (43,5%)
Lithuanians - 3,699 (2,6%)
Russians - 2,080 (1,5%)
Belarusians - 1917 (1,4%)
Germans - 1000 (0,7%)
Others - 300 (0,2%)

4) According to 1917 census (German census):

Total population: 138,787 - including:

Poles - 74,466 (53,67%)
Jews - 57,516 (41,45%)
Lithuanians - 2,909 (2,09%)
Russians - 2,212 (1,59%)
Belarusians - 611 (0,44%)
Germans - 880 (0,63%)
Others - 193 (0,13%)

Anyways, when Vilnius was founded it was Lithuanian and now it is today so nothing needs to change.

By this kind of logic, Berlin should be Polish - because when Berlin was founded, it was Slavic, and Poles are the nearest Slavs today.

And for example London was founded by the Romans in AD 50 (as Londinium) - so by your logic London should be Italian today.

Cologne was also established by the Romans as Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium. So give Köln back to Italians.

And Vilnius still has a very sizeable Polish minority today so it is not Lithuanian in the ethnic sense of this word, but multicultural.

========================================

Some Lithuanians are still in denial of the historical Polishness of the Vilno Region.

But even after deportation & emigration to Poland of over 250,000 Lithuanian Poles in 1945 - 1957, there are still some 250,000 of us today:

http://s15.postimg.org/aq3276p2j/AWPL.png

Poles in Lithuania and Belarus according to official data from 1959 census (that was already after the deportation of 250,000 Poles from Lithuania and 500,000 from Belarus) - map "Poles in Lithuania and Belarus according to understated figures of Soviet 1959 census":

Red colour = areas with Polish majority according to (still understated) numbers of Poles in 1959 census
Yellow colour = areas with mixed Polish and Belarussian or Lithuanian population
White colour = Lithuanian majority or Belarussian majority, Polish minorities
Numbers = Polish national councils in Soviet Belarus in years 1925 - 1938

http://images41.fotosik.pl/155/1892309c1e8efe3a.gif

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 09:10 PM

There were no Belarusian-speakers in that region, that was North-Eastern Kresy dialect of Polish with "eastern accent". Polish and Belarusian languages are quite similar (both are Slavic - unlike Lithuanian), so I forgive you your (or rather the book's you quoted) mistake.

Belarusian and Polish languages are not similar. Not evern north-eastern dialect of Polish is similar to Belarusian to make a mistke. Polish is a western Slavic language, while Belarusian is an eastern Slavic language, whose closest linguistic kins are Ukrainian and Russian. The map I posted above is taken from Zinkevičius's books, who knows about languages in Lithuania more than most people.

Zigmas Zinkevičius (January 4, 1925 in Juodausiai, Ukmergė district) is a leading Lithuanian linguist-historian, professor at Vilnius University, and a true member of the Lithuanian Academy of Sciences : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zigmas_Zinkevi%C4%8Dius
::

Not to mention that Vilnius was a cultural capital for Belarusians and Lithuanians for centuries and modern literary Belarusian language is largely based on dialects spoken around Vilnius region.

I also recommend you to check the results of German population censuses of 1916 and 1917 in the Vilna Region.

For example numbers from German data for the city of Vilno were as follows:

3) According to 1916 census (German census):

Total population: 140,890 - including:

Poles - 70,629 (50,2%)
Jews - 61,265 (43,5%)
Lithuanians - 3,699 (2,6%)
Russians - 2,080 (1,5%)
Belarusians - 1917 (1,4%)
Germans - 1000 (0,7%)
Others - 300 (0,2%)

4) According to 1917 census (German census):

Total population: 138,787 - including:

Poles - 74,466 (53,67%)
Jews - 57,516 (41,45%)
Lithuanians - 2,909 (2,09%)
Russians - 2,212 (1,59%)
Belarusians - 611 (0,44%)
Germans - 880 (0,63%)
Others - 193 (0,13%)

By this kind of logic, Berlin should be Polish - because when Berlin was founded, it was Slavic, and Poles are the nearest Slavs today.

And for example London was founded by the Romans in AD 50 (as Londinium) - so by your logic London should be Italian today.

Cologne was also established by the Romans as Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium. So give Köln back to Italians.

Census in Vilna governate by Germans during WWI? Are you serious? The proper census was conducted in 1897. Ethnic composition of Vilnius governate as per 1897 census

Lithuanians - 15%
Poles - 12%
Belarusians - 56%
Russians - 5%
Jews - 13%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilna_Governorate

Moreover, Poles are foreign to this region. Belarusian and Lithuanian ancestors lived in the regions longer, while Poles moved in after Lublin union (1569). Balts are native to the region.

And Vilnius still has a very sizeable Polish minority today so it is not Lithuanian in the ethnic sense of this word, but multicultural.

Most Poles living in Vilnius were brought from Belarus after WWII to replace Poles who left to settle areas of western Poland taken from Germany after WWII.

Peterski

10-26-2014, 09:15 PM

Of course I am not posting this to incite conflicts but I encourage you to accept the Polish heritage in Lithuania.

I do embrace the Lithuanian heritage and also it was nice when we both were united against external enemies, like for example in 1831:

"Gieysmie żiemaycziu Telszu pawieta wayno metu 1831:

Dabar lenkai naprapule
Kol żemaitiai gyvi
Kad visi prie ginkło pule
Tad ir bus szczastlivi

Lenkai, lietuviai, żemaitiai draugibie
Kayp visada buvom tayp busim vyinibie

Ar maż pralijom aszaru
Kad kożnam rudyni
Rekrutams ukazai cara
Lieb imt paskutini
Wayka motinai o seserei broli

Nebe mums iau poniawosi
Prakeiktas maskoli

Kaktas musu ne bus skustas
Ney żwangins gielżiniai
O Sybiras visad pustas
Neb grażos minyai

Wysi vyrai eikim newale numesti

Neprietieli musu pakarop dawesti

Gana vieros papeykimo
Gana jau kientieti
O diel puszku atliejimo
Warpus nujemkieti

Joug ir Diewas Danguy
Te Dieva teysibie
Duos lenkams, lijtuviams,
Żemaitiams vienibie

Trisdeszimtis sekmie metu
Kayp carai czie wałda
Kam ir spakaini wieta?
Kamy Diewui małda?
Gins virus y padvadas, nubiauros
tau buta
Yr mergaytiems yr moterims siułodami
knuta

Jug żemaitis kożnas turi
Titnago striełbeli
O dieł wajska ims isz buri
Tinkama żyrgeli
Oniekie tau sako: tunkart gausi mani
Kad iszginsi ysz Żemaicziu
Neprietieli szuni

Eykim wisi jemt Pałanga
O łaywais nupłauksma
Stalicziop su walia Danga
Yr cara sugausma

Tad sugryżies namon
Kriżius pastatysma
Yr Yszganima Metus
Ant ju paraszisma."

In English:

"Song of Samogitians of Telsiai county during the war of 1831:

The Poles have not yet perished
So long as the Samogitians still live
Everyone has taken up arms
So we will be happy

Poles, Lithuanians, Samogitians
Always live in peace with each other
We have been and still are in unity

Weren't enough tears shed
When during salty years
With use of knouts
In accordance with Tsarist orders
Conscripted into the army
Were mother's last son and sister's last brother?

You are not going to rule here
You damned Muscovite

You will not shave our heads anymore
You won't hear the clang of handcuffs
And Siberia, desolated
Will be ill remembered

Come on, boys, liberate yourselves from the yoke

Our enemy
Shall be humiliated

Let's put an end to religious persecutions
Let's put an end to sufferings and dungeons

Let's put an end to recasting bells into enemy cannons

There is God in Heaven
Let the God's will cause
Poles, Lithuanians and Samogitians
To unite together in one rank

It has been thirty years
Of the occupation by Tsardom
Who and where can hide before it?
Where can we praise the God?
They will drive away our men
They will plunder our houses
And threaten with knouts
Our women and girls

But each of us, the Samogitians
Has his gun loaded
And will take with him to the army
A first class horse
The girl tells you: I will be yours
When from our Samogitia
You drive away the enemy - dog

We must march on Palanga
From which we will sail on ships
To Moscow, God's will
And we will capture the Tsar

And when we come back home
We will construct crosses
And engrave on them
The Year of Liberation

Peterski

10-26-2014, 09:20 PM

The proper census was conducted in 1897. Ethnic composition of Vilnius governate as per 1897 census

That census was falsified because it counted many Poles as Belarusian-speakers or Russian-speakers (that census counted only language, not nationality).

You can tell this by comparing the number of Roman Catholics with the number of Poles in each district. There were some Catholic Belarusians, but not that many.

Similar thing was done by the Polish census of 1931, but in that census the number of Poles was slightly overstated, which can be seen by religious data.

Moreover, Poles are foreign to this regions. Belarusian and Lithuanian ancestors lived in the regions forever, while Poles moved after Lublin union (1569). Many locals were Polonised.

This is false. Poles started to settle in that region already in the 13th century, especially after the final defeat of Yotvingians (which was in 1283).

Eastern part of Grodno Governorate was originally inhabited by Jotvingians (Sudovians) - so Belarusians and Lithuanians were just as foreign in that region as Poles.

Veneda

10-26-2014, 09:21 PM

Belarusian and Polish languages are not similar.
What is your mother tongue to claim this? English?

For your information from Polish native speaker's point of view: Belarusian sounds like Pole trying to speak Russian, Ukrainian sounds like Russian trying to speak Polish. Both are pretty understandable by Poles and Russians.

Peterski

10-26-2014, 09:21 PM

Moreover, Poles are foreign to this regions. Belarusian and Lithuanian ancestors lived in the regions forever, while Poles moved after Lublin union (1569). Many locals were Polonised.

This is false. Poles started to settle in that region already in the 13th century, especially after the final defeat of Yotvingians (which was in 1283).

Eastern part of Grodno Governorate was originally inhabited by Jotvingians (Sudovians) - so Belarusians and Lithuanians were just as foreign in that region as Poles.

And in the Vilno Region Poles started to settle already after the Union of Krewo of 1385, not after the Union of Lublin of 1569.

Most Poles living in Vilnius were brought from Belarus after WWII ended to replace Poles who were gone to settle the areas of western Poland taken from Germany after WWII.

Yes - most. To be precise, about 55%. Around 45% stayed there.

Only about half of all Poles who lived east of the Curzon Line in former Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union came to Poland in period 1944 - 1949. At least around 1,5 million ethnic Poles were still left in the Soviet Union. Of them some 250 thousand came to Poland in 1955 - 1958, but according to official Soviet census of 1959 there were still ethnic 363,300 Poles in Ukraine, 538,881 in Belarus and 230,000 in Lithuania at that time.

In eastern regions of Poland later annexed by the Soviet Union (six eastern voivodeships of Poland - Nowogrodek, Polesie, Volhynia, Vilno, Tarnopol and Stanislawow - as well as eastern parts of two more voivodeships - Bialystok and Lwow), there lived according to 1931 census the following number of people declaring Polish as their mother tongue:

People with Polish as mother tongue (in thousand) - ca. 3871, including:

Roman Catholics - ca. 3010
Greek Catholics - ca. 363
Orthodoxs - ca. 295
Jews - ca. 164
Others - ca. 39

As of 1 January 1947 there were over two million - at least 2050 thousand - Poles from those lost eastern areas ("Kresy") within new post-war borders of Poland (including 1,7 million in the "regained lands" and 350 thousand in "central Poland").

In 1950 there were 1,6 million people from "Kresy" in the "regained lands" and at least 600 thousand in "central Poland". In period 1955 - 1958 during the "second repatriation" came another group of 250,000 people from the USSR. In the meantime there was also some "spontaneous immigration". And according to Soviet 1959 census, there were still 1,4 million Poles in entire Soviet Union, including 1,15 million in Ukraine, Belarus & Lithuania.

Belarusian and Polish languages are not similar.

At least lexically Belarusian is more similar to Polish than to Russian:

"The theory of lexical distance among European languages by Kostiantyn Tyshchenko":

http://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/

http://filocultglottologokaarlomarino.blog.tiscali.it/2014/01/14/the-theory-of-lexical-distance-among-european-languages-by-kostiantyn-tyshchenko/?doing_wp_cron

http://photo.i.ua/user/11131/134309/9436820/

http://elms.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/lexicaldistanceielangs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/28fottE.jpg

Peterski

10-26-2014, 09:28 PM

The map above is taken from Zinkevičius's books, who knows about languages in Lithuania better than most people.

No amount of knowledge is able to cure Lietuvan national chauvinism of Zinkevičius, which makes him deny the truth.

I also recommend you to check the results of German population censuses of 1916 and 1917 in the Vilna Region.

For example numbers from German data for the city of Vilno were as follows:

3) According to 1916 census (German census):

Total population: 140,890 - including:

Poles - 70,629 (50,2%)
Jews - 61,265 (43,5%)
Lithuanians - 3,699 (2,6%)
Russians - 2,080 (1,5%)
Belarusians - 1917 (1,4%)
Germans - 1000 (0,7%)
Others - 300 (0,2%)

4) According to 1917 census (German census):

Total population: 138,787 - including:

Poles - 74,466 (53,67%)
Jews - 57,516 (41,45%)
Lithuanians - 2,909 (2,09%)
Russians - 2,212 (1,59%)
Belarusians - 611 (0,44%)
Germans - 880 (0,63%)
Others - 193 (0,13%)

Census in Vilna governate by Germans during WWI? Are you serious?

I don't see any reason why should German census be less accurate and more manipulated than Russian census.

And even if you go by Russian census, then Vilna was not inhabited by Belarusians, but by Russians (not to mention that Russian census counted "White Russians" and "Little Russians" - Ukrainians, as just two sub-categories of Russians, while calling Russians proper - "Great Russians").

Here is the data from Russian census of 1897 for the city of Vilna:

Total population: 154,532 - including:

Jews - 61,847 (40,0%)
Poles - 47,795 (31,0%)
Russians - 30,967 (20,0%)
Belarusians - 6,514 (4,2%)
Lithuanians - 3,131 (2,0%)
Germans - 2,170 (1,4%)
Tatars - 772 (0,5%)
Ukrainians - 511 (0,3%)
Others - 825 (0,6%)

As you can see even according to Russian census Poles were the most numerous of Non-Jewish groups.

And actually this census counted languages not nationalities. So "Russians" are those who spoke Russian in daily life.

Even if that number of 30,967 Russian-speakers was not outright falsified, then still many of them were not ethnic Russians.

Today for example most of people who declare Polish ethnicity in Ukraine, speak Russian as their main language.

According to 1897 census there were a lot of Roman Catholics who could speak Russian. But they were not ethnic Russians.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 09:36 PM

Of course I am not posting this to incite conflicts but I encourage you to accept the Polish heritage in Lithuania.

Armia Krajowa in which local Poles were recruited to create a greater Poland from sea to sea on the land of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine is still in memories of many people. I don't care what language you speak or your religious affilication , if you are not loyal to the country in which you live and people of the country, then make a good use of the Polish card (Karta Polaka). It was issued for your benefit.

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 09:40 PM

What is your mother tongue to claim this? English?

For your information from Polish native speaker's point of view: Belarusian sounds like Pole trying to speak Russian, Ukrainian sounds like Russian trying to speak Polish. Both are pretty understandable by Poles and Russians. thank for this point of wiev. this formula excellent for trolling in a situation with simililar languages (serbian-crvatian, for example).

Also: lviv and london polska strona too.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 09:41 PM

That census was falsified because it counted many Poles as Belarusian-speakers or Russian-speakers (that census counted only language, not nationality).

You can tell this by comparing the number of Roman Catholics with the number of Poles in each district. There were some Catholic Belarusians, but not that many.

Similar thing was done by the Polish census of 1931, but in that census the number of Poles was slightly overstated, which can be seen by religious data.

It wasn't falsified, as there was no need for falsification. Moreover, I posted a map presented by a leading Lithuanian linguist Zinkevičius showing where Belarusian language was spoken which provides further evidence that census wasn't falsfied

No amount of knowledge is able to cure Lietuvan national chauvinism of Zinkevičius, which makes him deny the truth.

Lithuanian linguist Zinkevičius must have been Belarusian chauvinist, if he placed Belarusian language on the map of Lithuania. ;)

This is false. Poles started to settle in that region already in the 13th century, especially after the final defeat of Yotvingians (which was in 1283).

Eastern part of Grodno Governorate was originally inhabited by Jotvingians (Sudovians) - so Belarusians and Lithuanians were just as foreign in that region as Poles.

Grodno governate did not exist in the 13th century. Hrodna was already a Slavic speaking city before the GDL was formed. Areas around Hrodna were settled by Slavs, Yotvingians and original Lithuanians (east Baltic tribes). Those Slavs were Dregovichi - an eastern Slavic tribe.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 09:43 PM

What is your mother tongue to claim this? English?

For your information from Polish native speaker's point of view: Belarusian sounds like Pole trying to speak Russian, Ukrainian sounds like Russian trying to speak Polish. Both are pretty understandable by Poles and Russians.

Polish is similar to Kashubian, Sorbian, Slovak, Czech. Belarusian is similar to Ukrainian and Russian. Polish is no more similar to Belarusian than let's say to Slovenian.

Veneda

10-26-2014, 09:48 PM

thank for this point of wiev. this formula excellent for trolling in a situation with simililar languages (serbian-crvatian, for example).

Also: lviv and london polska strona too.

Dumayu, shto Хруль nas nie vidit :D

Лондон je davno Polska, хаха :D

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 09:50 PM

вообще-то основой языка есть склонения глаголов - это самая устойчивая часть. и вот тут-то польский сильно отличается от русского-украинского и белорусского.
а так да, белорусы больше всех слов и оборотов с польского нахватали.

пс: ну вот нахера полякам нищая беларусь (то же самое со львовом)? пусть лучше думают как жирных немцев ассимилировать. ей-богу, аж зло берёт за славян соседей. не шоб ауди на варшаву переделать, то они слюни на лазовские развалины пускают.

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 09:55 PM

Лондон je davno Polska, хаха :D
and it needs some referendum for legalize.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 09:55 PM

вообще-то основой языка есть склонения глаголов - это самая устойчивая часть. и вот-то польский сильно отличается от русского-украинского и белорусского.
а так да, белорусы больше всех слов и оборотов с польского нахватали.

пс: ну вот нахера полякам нищая беларусь (то же самое со львовом)? пусть лучше думают как жирных немцев ассимилировать. ей-богу, аж зло берёт за славян соседей. не шоб ауди на варшаву переделать, то они слюни на лазовские развалины пускают.

Почитай мнение русских со Смоленщины, живших столетиями рядом с ними. Они умеют отношения испортить с соседями. Со славянами, немцами, литовцами. Поехали на туманный Альбион и там их не любят.

Lisa

10-26-2014, 10:00 PM

This is false. Poles started to settle in that region already in the 13th century, especially after the final defeat of Yotvingians (which was in 1283).

Eastern part of Grodno Governorate was originally inhabited by Jotvingians (Sudovians) - so Belarusians and Lithuanians were just as foreign in that region as Poles.

And in the Vilno Region Poles started to settle already after the Union of Krewo of 1385, not after the Union of Lublin of 1569.

Yes - most. To be precise, about 55%. Around 45% stayed there.

Only about half of all Poles who lived east of the Curzon Line in former Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union came to Poland in period 1944 - 1949. At least around 1,5 million ethnic Poles were still left in the Soviet Union. Of them some 250 thousand came to Poland in 1955 - 1958, but according to official Soviet census of 1959 there were still ethnic 363,300 Poles in Ukraine, 538,881 in Belarus and 230,000 in Lithuania at that time.

In eastern regions of Poland later annexed by the Soviet Union (six eastern voivodeships of Poland - Nowogrodek, Polesie, Volhynia, Vilno, Tarnopol and Stanislawow - as well as eastern parts of two more voivodeships - Bialystok and Lwow), there lived according to 1931 census the following number of people declaring Polish as their mother tongue:

People with Polish as mother tongue (in thousand) - ca. 3871, including:

Roman Catholics - ca. 3010
Greek Catholics - ca. 363
Orthodoxs - ca. 295
Jews - ca. 164
Others - ca. 39

As of 1 January 1947 there were over two million - at least 2050 thousand - Poles from those lost eastern areas ("Kresy") within new post-war borders of Poland (including 1,7 million in the "regained lands" and 350 thousand in "central Poland").

In 1950 there were 1,6 million people from "Kresy" in the "regained lands" and at least 600 thousand in "central Poland". In period 1955 - 1958 during the "second repatriation" came another group of 250,000 people from the USSR. In the meantime there was also some "spontaneous immigration". And according to Soviet 1959 census, there were still 1,4 million Poles in entire Soviet Union, including 1,15 million in Ukraine, Belarus & Lithuania.

At least lexically Belarusian is more similar to Polish than to Russian:

"The theory of lexical distance among European languages by Kostiantyn Tyshchenko":

http://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/

http://filocultglottologokaarlomarino.blog.tiscali.it/2014/01/14/the-theory-of-lexical-distance-among-european-languages-by-kostiantyn-tyshchenko/?doing_wp_cron

http://photo.i.ua/user/11131/134309/9436820/

http://elms.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/lexicaldistanceielangs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/28fottE.jpg

http://s016.radikal.ru/i337/1410/62/0bf5b75ea168.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

Veneda

10-26-2014, 10:05 PM

Polish is similar to Kashubian, Sorbian, Slovak, Czech. Belarusian is similar to Ukrainian and Russian. Polish is no more similar to Belarusian than let's say to Slovenian.

No, as a Pole I understand more Belarusian, than Slovenian, Sir.

Hercus Monte

10-26-2014, 10:07 PM

Vilnius yra žydu.

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 10:08 PM

Почитай мнение русских со Смоленщины, живших столетиями рядом с ними. Они умеют отношения испортить с соседями. Со славянами, немцами, литовцами. Поехали на туманный Альбион и там их не любят. та да. мамка с польского села на просторах украины. так наших до сих пор в окрестных сёлах не любят. ну и хуй на тех хохлов - сами виноваты. подозреваю, что примерно так же и отношения с англией складываются )))
а ещё у нас как-то поляки завод строили. короч за первый месяц умудрились чуть не до всего города доебаться )))

это им славнозвисный гонор постоянно боком вылазит

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 10:10 PM

Just because you understand Belarusian more than Slovenian doesn't mean Polish is more similar to Belarusian than to Slovenian, Madam.

Just because you understand more English than any Western, Eastern and Southern Slavic language doesn't mean you have any idea of how native Poles perceive language of Belarusians, our Eastern neighbours :)

Peterski

10-26-2014, 10:10 PM

Of course Yotvingians lived in western part of Grodno Governorate (not eastern).

It wasn't falsified, as there was no need for falsification.

The need for falsificatin were Russification policies. Number of Roman Catholics in Western Krai according to 1897 census:

Kovno Gov. - 1,186,378
Vilna Gov. - 935,827
Grodno Gov. - 384,434
Vitebsk Gov. - 357,306
Volhynia Gov. - 296,834
Podolia Gov. - 262,715
Minsk Gov. - 219,458
Kiev Gov. - 109,402
Mogilev Gov. - 51,403

Total in Western Krai - 3,803,757 Roman Catholics according to official data of the 1897 census.

Roman Catholic Eastern Slavs are as rare as Albino Sub-Saharan Africans !!! :laugh2:

Number of Germans in those regions was minimal (and most of Germans were Protestants anyway - especially Lutherans).

The reality is that almost all of those Roman Catholics were either Poles, Lithuanians (mostly in Kovno Gov.) or Latvians. But - on the other hand - not all Poles in Belarus and Lithuania were Catholic, there were also some Orthodox, Protestant (mostly Calvinist) and Muslim Poles.

Muslim Poles were Polonized Lipka Tatars, who speak Polish since the 17th century (see the video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQqPf6Dm1NI

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 10:15 PM

та да. мамка с польского села на просторах украины. так наших до сих пор в окрестных сёлах не любят. ну и хуй на тех хохлов - сами виноваты. подозреваю, что примерно так же и отношения с англией складываются )))
а ещё у нас как-то поляки завод строили. короч за первый месяц умудрились чуть не до всего города доебаться )))

Сейчас на хохлов всех собак можно повесить. Если бы только хохлы...)) В Смоленске польский костел находится в аварийном состоянии. Здание - памятник архитектуры и все такое. Нужны деньги для ремонта. Такой общественный резонанс вызвал этот ремонт. И не потому, что костел католический, а скорее потому что он польский. ))

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 10:23 PM

Of course Yotvingians lived in western part of Grodno Governorate (not eastern).

They lived in western, eastern and southern (as far south as Bielaviežskaja pušča, just north of Brest) of Grodno governate. Yotvingians took part in ethnogenesis of Belarusians and south-western Lithuanians in Suvalkija. Lechitic Slavic tribes on the other hand lived a fair distance away.

The need for falsificatin were Russification policies. Number of Roman Catholics in Western Krai according to 1897 census:

Kovno Gov. - 1,186,378
Vilna Gov. - 935,827
Grodno Gov. - 384,434
Vitebsk Gov. - 357,306
Volhynia Gov. - 296,834
Podolia Gov. - 262,715
Minsk Gov. - 219,458
Kiev Gov. - 109,402
Mogilev Gov. - 51,403

Total in Western Krai - 3,803,757 according to official data of the 1897 census

Roman Catholic East Slavs are as rare as Albino Sub-Saharan Africans !!!

Number of Germans in those regions was minimal (and most of Germans were Protestants anyway - especially Lutherans).

If it was russification, then Russians would have counted more Russians. Instead Belarusians were the majority in Vilnia governate in 1897. Why wouldn't they be? Take a closer look at the map of Vilnia governate.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 10:38 PM

At least lexically Belarusian is more similar to Polish than to Russian:

"The theory of lexical distance among European languages by Kostiantyn Tyshchenko":

http://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/

http://filocultglottologokaarlomarino.blog.tiscali.it/2014/01/14/the-theory-of-lexical-distance-among-european-languages-by-kostiantyn-tyshchenko/?doing_wp_cron

http://photo.i.ua/user/11131/134309/9436820/

http://elms.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/lexicaldistanceielangs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/28fottE.jpg

Zharavlev is a known linguist from Russia. He wrote a thesis for his higher docatorate in 1994 called "The lexicostatistical modeling system of Slavic languages' kinship. The analysis was based on around 4,000 Slavic words unlike a small sample used in Tyshenko . Swadesh list?

The lexical distance between the Belarusian and Ukrainian and Belarusian language and south-Russian dialect (no longer spoken widely, located just south and south-west of Moscow in the direction of Belarus and Ukraine) is about the same. Lexically the closest languages to east Slavic languages are Polish and Slovak. Among eastern Slavic languages the Belarusian language gravitates towards western Slavic languages. Page 128 : http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/pdf/1994_Zhuravlev.pdf

Veneda

10-26-2014, 10:44 PM

Just because you understand more English than any Western, Eastern and Southern Slavic language doesn't mean you have any idea of how native Poles perceive language of Belarusians, our Eastern neighbours :)
You edited my post, lame :(

I am native Pole form Poland, Mazovia region. You?

FeederOfRavens

10-26-2014, 10:45 PM

By this kind of logic, Berlin should be Polish - because when Berlin was founded, it was Slavic, and Poles are the nearest Slavs today.

And for example London was founded by the Romans in AD 50 (as Londinium) - so by your logic London should be Italian today.

Cologne was also established by the Romans as Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium. So give Köln back to Italians.

And Vilnius still has a very sizeable Polish minority today so it is not Lithuanian in the ethnic sense of this word, but multicultural.

Nay, Vilnius was founded by Lithuanians on Lithuanian land. Poles came later but the Lithuanians are native.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 10:48 PM

You edited my post, lame :(

I am native Pole form Poland, Mazovia region. You?

You edited my post, and now you have replied to your own post making it look as if it was mine?

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 10:50 PM

Zharavlev is a known linguist from Russia. He wrote a thesis for his higher docatorate in 1994 called "The lexicostatistical modeling system of Slavic languages' kinship. The analysis was based on around 4,000 Slavic words unlike a small sample used in Tyshenko . Swadesh list? for all: ukraine has no any scientists after 1990 and all scientific work after this time has not a finding the truth as a main aim, but an execution of certain political demands. for example exist an serious scientific articles that ukrainian language is direct descendant of latin, ukrainians were an ancestors of whole europe etc.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 10:51 PM

Nay, Vilnius was founded by Lithuanians on Lithuanian land. Poles came later but the Lithuanians are native.

In a nutshell, you are right.

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 10:56 PM

You edited my post, lame :(

I am native Pole form Poland, Mazovia region. You? for long time mazovia was not in poland and for long time after polaks differed the mazovians from other polaks.
Not for any insults, especially personal.

Veneda

10-26-2014, 10:59 PM

You edited my post, and now you have replied to your own post making it look as if it was mine?

No, you edited my post first and I replied to it, but it appeared as non-edited when I quoted it. Anyway, good luck. Hope our conv is finished.

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 11:01 PM

also: it will be so interesting and funny, if poland annexed Lietuva as ex-part and set the polish as ofccial language. In Lietuva will be a biggest butthurt in novaday history.
much more bigget that present crimea butthurt in ukraine

Veneda

10-26-2014, 11:01 PM

for long time mazovia was not in poland and for long time after polaks differed the mazovians from other polaks.
Not for any insults, especially personal.

Where was Mazovia then, according to you?

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 11:06 PM

Where was Mazovia then, according to you? ля, та я не помню, вроде как сама по себе была.

та то ерунда, панна Венеда, вы как думаете: а куда литовцы подевались? неужели всей страной на заработки сдрыснули так шо в интернетах сидеть некогда?

Peterski

10-26-2014, 11:07 PM

Roman Catholics compared to Polish-speakers and Lithuanian & Samogitian speakers according to 1897 Russian census:

Gov. - Rom. Cath. / Poles / Lith.-Samog. (numbers in thousand people):

Kovno Gov. - 1187 / 140 / 1020 ---- who were the remaining 27 thousand?
Vilna Gov. - 936 / 130 / 280 ---- who were the remaining 526 thousand?
Grodno Gov. - 385 / 162 / 4 ---- who were the remaining 219 thousand?
Vitebsk Gov. - 358 / 50 ---- who were the remaining 308 thousand? (in this case probably many of them Latvians - see below*)
Volhynia Gov. - 297 / 184 ---- who were the remaining 113 thousand?
Podolia Gov. - 263 / 69 ---- who were the remaining 194 thousand?
Minsk Gov. - 220 / 65 ---- who were the remaining 155 thousand?
Kiev Gov. - 110 / 69 ---- who were the remaining 41 thousand?
Mogilev Gov. - 52 / 17 ---- who were the remaining 35 thousand?

*Latvians are mostly Lutherans but in eastern Latvia there are Roman Catholic ones.

It is obvious that 1897 census falsified - understated - number of Poles. There are detailed studies which also came to this conclusion.

Roman Catholic East Slavs are not so numerous !!! Not even Belarusians.

Today there are some Roman Catholic Belarusians but they are mostly Belarusianized (after 1939) Poles, not "real" Belarusians.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 11:08 PM

No, you edited my post first and I replied to it, but it appeared as non-edited when I quoted it. Anyway, good luck. Hope our conv is finished.

Only mods can edit posts of others and I am not a mod.

Veneda

10-26-2014, 11:11 PM

for long time mazovia was not in poland and for long time after polaks differed the mazovians from other polaks.
Not for any insults, especially personal.

Joł, Mazovia was always Poland, when it was not and for how long?

Veneda

10-26-2014, 11:13 PM

Only mods can edit posts of others and I am not a mod.

No, everyone can alter other user's post when it is quoted, don't you know it?

ЛыSSый

10-26-2014, 11:22 PM

Joł, Mazovia was always Poland, when it was not and for how long?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F

Veneda

10-26-2014, 11:22 PM

ля, та я не помню, вроде как сама по себе была.

та то ерунда, панна Венеда, вы как думаете: а куда литовцы подевались? неужели всей страной на заработки сдрыснули так шо в интернетах сидеть некогда?

Я не знаю, куда. Пусть они остаются на своих местах. Нас, поляков, это не интересует

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 11:24 PM

No, everyone can alter other user's post when it is quoted, don't you know it?

I never tampered with anyone's posts including yours. You cannot even engage in a discussion with getting personal or abusing your moderator's power.

Peterski

10-26-2014, 11:25 PM

Warsaw is in Mazovia. Mazovians = ethnic Poles.

Actually most of Poles who settled in Lithuania and Belarus were Mazovians.

For a very long time most of Russia was not part of the Muscovite realm, by the way.

Veneda

10-26-2014, 11:26 PM

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F

Vy o razdelyah govorite? Ja dumala o Vas lutshee...

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 11:29 PM

It is obvious that 1897 census falsified - understated - number of Poles. There are detailed studies which also came to this conclusion.

Roman Catholic East Slavs are not so numerous !!! Not even Belarusians.

Today there are some Roman Catholic Belarusians but they are mostly Belarusianized (after 1939) Poles, not "real" Belarusians.

Majority of Belarusians were Greek or Roman Catholic till 1863. They were converted to Orthodoxy in three waves right until 1930s. Highly unlikely census of 1897 was falsified. You want the census to be falsfied to fullfil your own agenda. Belarusian catholic are not Belarusianised Poles either. Genetic results confirm this. You still have much to learn.

Veneda

10-26-2014, 11:30 PM

I never tampered with anyone's posts including yours. You cannot even engage in a discussion with getting personal or abusing your moderator's power.

Let us ignore each other, agree? I am pro :)

Peterski

10-26-2014, 11:40 PM

Highly unlikely census of 1897 was falsified

As I wrote there are many professional studies which prove that it was falsified, based on solid statistical data. Language in schools, language of sermons in churches in each parish, etc. - all these data combined prove serious falsification. By the way the 1897 census was the first All-Russian census but not the first census in Russia (there were regional censuses before) and not the last one before WW1 (for example there was a census in several western regions of Russia in 1912). Those other mini-censuses collectively also prove that the 1897 one was manipulated.

Why do you trust one census while rejecting all others - including German censuses of 1916, 1917 and Polish censuses of 1921, 1931?

Genetic results confirm this.

Nope, there are no such studies and no such results.

Rugevit

10-26-2014, 11:48 PM

As I wrote there are many professional studies which prove that it was falsified, based on solid statistical data. Language in schools, language of sermons in churches in each parish, etc. - all these data combined prove serious falsification. By the way the 1897 census was the first All-Russian census but not the first census in Russia (there were regional censuses before) and not the last one before WW1 (for example there was a census in several western regions of Russia in 1912). Those other mini-censuses collectively also prove that the 1897 one was manipulated.

Why do you trust one census while rejecting all others - including German censuses of 1916, 1917 and Polish censuses of 1921, 1931?

Which professional studies have proven falsification?

Nope, there are no such studies and no such results.

I've seen genetic profiles of catholic Belarusians. I have seen genetic profile of a Pole who has ancestry in Belarus.

Peterski

10-26-2014, 11:56 PM

They lived in western, eastern and southern (as far south as Bielaviežskaja pušča, just north of Brest) of Grodno governate. Yotvingians took part in ethnogenesis of Belarusians and south-western Lithuanians in Suvalkija.

They didn't take part in ethnogenesis but were conquered and absorbed. Also by Poles. And they lived only in western part of Grodno Gov.:

Prussian tribes (including Yotvingians in the east and south-east) before the conquest - around 65,800 km2:

http://s18.postimg.org/oouweh5qx/Prusai_Map.png

And here are approximate directions of colonization of Prussian territory by foreign settlers after the conquest:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/301og7o.jpg

German map from 1847 showing divisions for German-majority, Lithuanian-majority and Polish-majority areas in East Prussia:

Red line = border of the province of Ostpreussen

Green colour (in the north-west) = territories with German-speaking majority
Yellow colour (in the south) = territories with Polish-speaking majority
Grey colour (in the north-east) = territories with Lithuanian-speaking majority

http://s27.postimg.org/6cn08uk3n/1847.png

However, most of those Lithuanians in East Prussia (in Klein Litauen) became rapidly Germanized later (after 1847).

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 12:12 AM

They did not take part in ethnogenesis but were conquered and absorbed. Also by Poles. And they lived only in western part of Grodno Gov.:

Eastern Poles around Bialystok make up a smal fraction of Polish population. The area around Bialystok was also populated by Belarusians , whose ancestors were Dregovichi (east Slavic tribe) and western Balts. This you can see on one of your map showing as "Belarusian settlers".

Prussian tribes (including Yotvingians in the east and south-east) before the conquest - around 65,800 km2:

http://s18.postimg.org/oouweh5qx/Prusai_Map.png

The area coloured in purple was part of eastern Prussia . In Prussia western Balts were assimilated into German ethnicity, who left Prussia after WWII ended. There were Mazurians living in the region. Mazurians were Poles who may had mixed with western Balts in Prussia. Mazurians also left for west Germany after WWII. That area was resettled by Polish immigrants after WWII.

This is archaelogical map of Yotvingian burials on Belarusian territory prepared by Belarusian archaeologist Alla Kviatkovskaya for her PhD research. As you can see most Yotvingians burials were found along the banks of upper Neman and south of upper Neman river. There were a few as far as central Belarus.

http://c.foto.radikal.ru/0609/1a5ba8ec6cab.jpg

Peterski

10-27-2014, 12:25 AM

In Prussia western Balts were assimilated into German ethnicity, who left Prussia after WWII ended. There were Mazurians living in the region. Mazurians were Poles who may had mixed with western Balts in Prussia. Mazurians also left for west Germany after WWII.

This is a very simplified version of history. For example East Prussian Germans were only partially Germanized Prussians. There was also immigration of Germans from other regions there, from late 13th century onwards. Mazurs were called like this because most of them came from Mazovia (inhabitants of Mazovia used to be called Mazurs, and those who settled in East Prussia were Prussian Mazurs or Mazovians). Apart from Mazurs - who were mostly Lutherans - there were also other groups of Poles in East Prussia, including Roman Catholic Warmiaks in Warmia (Ermland). Lithuanians in Prussia were Lutherans. They were undergoing rapid Germanization in 1850 - 1918. After WW1 they were majority only in Memelland.

Prussian tribes also inhabited other regions where Poles settled and absorbed them - Northern Mazovia, Podlasie, Suvalkija and Powisle.

There was also emigration of Baltic Prussian refugees to Lithuania and to Poland during the 13th century and later.

That area was resettled by Polish immigrants after WWII.

Except for Kaliningrad Oblast - it was settled by Russian immigrants.

As for Mazurians some of them stayed until this day. And of those who left for Germany many did so already in the Autumn-Winter of 1944 and in early 1945, during flights and evacuation of civilians from East Prussia (to avoid getting raped or killed by the Red Army).

This is archaelogical map of Yotvingian burials on Belarusian territory

Rather Baltic in general - not just Yotvingian ???

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 12:47 AM

This is a very simplified version of history.

The point was Podlasie and Suvalkija accounts for a small fraction of Polish population.

There was also emigration of Baltic Prussian refugees to Lithuania and to Poland during the 13th century and later.

The chronicle accounts for settlements on present day territory of Belarus and Lithuania. Not sure about Poland whose king , king of Mazovia to be precise, invited Teutonic Order to Prussia. If Prussians settled on territory of present Poland, then it must have been those Baltic speaking territories in Podlasie and Suvalkija.

Except for Kaliningrad Oblast - it was settled by Russian immigrants.

Obviously. So, much of the highlighted area on your map in which Prussians and their descendants lived left for Germany after WWII. The area was resettled by Soviet and Polish immigrants after WWII. It's really Podlasie and Suvalkija in which sizeable populations of western Balts lived.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 12:53 AM

I have a Polish book about the society of the State of the Teutonic Order in Prussia. They give some data about ethnic composition as well.

Southern Warmia (Ermland) in 1400 was 3/4 Old Prussian and 1/4 German (page 212 of the book). Polish settlement (Warmiaks) started in 1410, and in the end Poles became majority in southern part of Warmia. Undoubtedly they Polonized many of local Old Prussians and Germans. In Klein Litauen the patronymic -aitis ending of most of their names suggest that Lithuanians who settled there came mostly from Samogitia.

As for Suvalkija - here is the list of surnames of inhabitants of the region in the 1800s: http://www.mem.net.pl/stg/nazwiska.htm

==========================

Suwałki Governorate was ethnically mixed with western and southern part being Polish while northern and north-eastern Lithuanian.

Counties with Polish majority were Suwałki (1528 km2) and Augustów (2012 km2).

One county - Sejny (2393 km2) - was mixed, with Poles being majority in its southern smaller part.

County Sejny - 53367 Lit., 20058 Pol. (Poles were majority in cities Sejny & Łoździeje and in communes Giby, Krasnopol & Berżniki)

Lithuanians were majority in the remaining 4 counties of the governorate:

County Kalvarija (1366 km2) - 67431 Lit., 8673 Pol.
County Vilkaviškis (1276 km2) - 57066 Lit., 2690 Pol.
County Marijampolė (2192 km2) - 90672 Lit., 2184 Pol.
County Vladislavovas (1785 km2) - 66596 Lit., 615 Pol.

This data is from 1914. That governorate included historical regions of Suvalkija (Suwalszczyzna) and westernmost part of Dzūkija.

In County Suwałki Lithuanians were majority in just 2 communes - Andrzejewo (2332 Lit., 961 Pol.) and Maćkowo (2116 Lit., 29 Poles).

=========================

In the city of Suwałki in 1921 census there were 11719 Poles, 4804 Jews, 159 Russians, 54 Germans, 21 Lithuanians, 15 Belarusians, 8 others.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 01:52 AM

Poland whose king , king of Mazovia to be precise, invited Teutonic Order to Prussia.

He was just a prince rather than a king (even though he wanted to become a king). At that time Poland was politically fragmented. Most of Polish princes sided with the Teutonic Order against Prussians (and with White Russians against Yotvingians), but some of them supported Prussians against the Teutonic Order and against other Polish princes. For example Polish prince Swietopelk (or Swantopelk) II the Great fought a few wars against the Order, he even invaded the Teutonic Order to help Prussians and won the battle of Lake Rondsen (or Rensen) in 1243 against them:

http://books.google.pl/books?id=GREWu1KjJJAC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=battle+of+rondsen&source=bl&ots=wE17H0roVh&sig=MdUnQrwFsDs_ES3biW8SpaYNT_o&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=QaRNVLqENcS4ygOQi4HYBw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=battle%20of%20rondsen&f=false

White & Black Russians fought against Yotvingians united with Poles (mostly Mazovians). Last battles were in Bialowieza Forests.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 03:08 AM

He was just a prince rather than a king (even though he wanted to become a king). At that time Poland was politically fragmented. Most of Polish princes sided with the Teutonic Order against Prussians (and with White Russians against Yotvingians), but some of them supported Prussians against the Teutonic Order and against other Polish princes. For example Polish prince Swietopelk (or Swantopelk) II the Great fought a few wars against the Order, he even invaded the Teutonic Order to help Prussians and won the battle of Lake Rondsen (or Rensen) in 1243 against them:

http://books.google.pl/books?id=GREWu1KjJJAC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=battle+of+rondsen&source=bl&ots=wE17H0roVh&sig=MdUnQrwFsDs_ES3biW8SpaYNT_o&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=QaRNVLqENcS4ygOQi4HYBw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=battle%20of%20rondsen&f=false

White & Black Russians fought against Yotvingians united with Poles (mostly Mazovians). Last battles were in Bialowieza Forests.

Belarus was settled by Slavic and Baltic tribes in the 13th century. The term black, white and red Ruthenia appeared in chronicles in the 15th century. White Ruthenia appeared earlier but it was applied to north-western Russia at the time. Later white Ruthenia was applied to northern and eastern Belarus, including western Smolensk region.

The battles against Yotvingians were fought by Vladimir of Kiev in 983 , Yaroslav the Wise in 1038 and prince Yaroslav of Volhynia in 1112. These were small battles common to the region for those times. Things changed after Galicia–Volhynia principality bacame stronger. Prince Daniel of Galicia-Volhynia and his brother Vasilko formed a coalition with the Lyakhs (Poles) engaged in a war against Yotvingians.

The core of Galicia-Volhynia principality was in western Ukraine in which eastern Slavs Volhynians lived. For a short period of time south-western Belarus was under the rule of Galicia-Volhynian princes but t was part of Turou-Pinsk principality prior to Volhynian rule. It's unlikely Dregovichi (Slavic tribe in western Belarus) had major battles against Yotvingians similar to those of Volhynians and Lykhas, as Dregoviches lived next to Yotvingians on the banks of upper Neman river and Podlasie for a long time. Territories of western Belarus settled by Dregoviches and Yotvingians were disputed between Lithuanians (eastern Balts of south-eastern Lithuania and north-western Belarus) and princes of Galicia-Volhinia principality. Eventually Lithuania took hold of Navahrudak and surrounding areas. Most regions of Belarus joined Lithuania relatively peacefully after Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus.

Hochmeister

10-27-2014, 04:34 AM

What is your mother tongue to claim this? English?

For your information from Polish native speaker's point of view: Belarusian sounds like Pole trying to speak Russian, Ukrainian sounds like Russian trying to speak Polish. Both are pretty understandable by Poles and Russians.

Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian languages have one syntax, and Polish language has another syntax.
So I can claim Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian to be dialects of the same language, because it depends on the syntax only.

Hochmeister

10-27-2014, 04:43 AM

вообще-то основой языка есть склонения глаголов - это самая устойчивая часть.

Иными словами - синтаксис.

как жирных немцев ассимилировать

Кто еще кого ассимилирует :coffee:

Peterski

10-27-2014, 12:28 PM

Which professional studies have proven falsification?

W. Wakar, "Rozwój terytorialny narodowości polskiej", Kielce 1918
E. Maliszewski, "Polskość i Polacy na Litwie i Rusi", Warszawa 1916
E. Romer, "Geograficzno-statystyczny Atlas Polski", Warszawa-Kraków 1916
E. Romer, "Ilu nas jest?", Kraków 1917
Series of books "Opis ziem zamieszkanych przez Polaków..." (volume I - "Polish lands in Prussia" - was published in Warsaw in 1904)
A. Krzyżanowski, K. Kumaniecki, "Statystyka Polski", Kraków 1915
E. Romer, I. Weinfeld, "Rocznik Polski. Tablice statystyczne", Kraków 1917
S. Szuk, "Wartość materiałów statystycznych dot. stanu ludności b. Królestwa Polskiego", Warszawa 1920

And many, many other studies...

=======================================

Percent of Roman Catholics in Western Krai (Russian partition of Poland-Lithuania) in year 1867:

Belarus & Lithuania:

Kovno Gov. - 82,8%
Vilna Gov. - 68,1%
Grodno Gov. - 31,4%
Vitebsk Gov. - 29,9%
Minsk Gov. - 18,1%
Mogilev Gov. - 4,6%

Ukraine:

Podolia Gov. - 12,5%
Volhynia Gov. - 11,3%
Kiev Gov. - 4,4%

Majority of Belarusians were Greek or Roman Catholic till 1863.

This is certainly not true when it comes to Roman Catholics.

Already Mikhail Nikolaevich Muraviov (born 1796 - died 1866) wrote:

"Our [Russian] government must become convinced that the first enemy of Russian nationality in this country [Belarus] is Polonism and therefore Catholicism, because the [Roman] Catholic and the Pole are synonyms. This is why weakening the influence of Catholics is one of the most important means of action, that the government should pay attention to."

Source: Muraviov's memoirs.

Belarusian catholic are not Belarusianised Poles either. Genetic results confirm this.

They do not confirm this because Belarusians have very similar haplogroups and subclades as Poles:

http://s11.postimg.org/khn67kfjn/R1a_Slavs_2.png

================================================== =

Even today Poles are majority in many regions of north-western Belarus and southern Lithuania.

According to 1959 Soviet census the number of Poles in 1959 (after the end of deportations of Eastern Poles) was:

In Belarus - 538,881
In Ukraine - 363,297
In Lithuania - 230,000
In Latvia - 59,774

http://images70.fotosik.pl/207/d393f526745778ae.jpg

The core of Galicia-Volhynia principality was in western Ukraine in which eastern Slavs Volhynians lived.

There was also a West Slavic tribe of Lędzianie (mentioned as: Lendizi in 843; Lendzanenoi in 912; Landzaneh in 940) in Eastern Galicia.

Lędzianie (Lendians) lived roughly in the area between modern Sanok-Drohobych-Lviv-Dubno-Hrubieszów, maybe also in areas farther west.

Territory of the West Slavic Ledzianie tribe was conquered by Poland around 970, and later was conquered by Kievan Rus in 981.

Expansion of Poland in years 960 - 990 (you can see that Poland in 970 owned part of Eastern Galicia, but lost it in 981):

http://s9.postimg.org/gi2utpokv/960.png
http://s14.postimg.org/i4tzv0djl/970.png
http://s23.postimg.org/r80dw06aj/981.png
http://s24.postimg.org/gala1z539/990.png

Peterski

10-27-2014, 01:26 PM

After WW2 - until year 1947 - 674 thousand Poles were deported from Belarus to Poland.

However, Belarusian nationalists continued to deny that those were Poles, and claimed that Belarusians were deported to Poland after WW2 (sic !!!).

Here is what Mikola Volacic, "The population of Western Belorussia and Its Resettlement in Poland and the USSR", "Belorussian Rewiew" No 3, Munich: Institute for the Study of the USSR, 1956, p. 26, claimed (of course what he wrote is ridiculous):

[I]"(...) Until 1947 from Belorussian lands emigrated to areas west of the Curzon Line [to Poland]: 120 thousand Poles, 85 thousand Jews and 469 thousand Belorussians (sic! LOL). (...)"

This is of course bullcrap because only Poles were deported during the First Repatriation from Belarus (1944 - 1949).

Later the Second Repatriation from Belarus took place (1955-1958) and during that repatriation 101 thousand more Poles were deported.

So between 1944-1958 at least 775 thousand Poles were deported from Belarus to areas west of the Curzon Line (to Poland).

And despite this fact, the Soviet census of 1959 still counted as many as 539 thousand Poles in Belarusian SSR !!!

===============================================

The Polish census of 1931 - although also not fully accurate (too many Orthodox and Greek Catholic peoples were counted as Poles) was still much more accurate than the Russian census of 1897 (in which FAR too many Roman Catholics were counted as Great, White or Little Russians!).

And here are the results of the Polish census of 1931 for Eastern Poland:

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=318207&sid=bb4b02cfb0c709a4e16a05f1b2a8ee66&mode=view

http://s15.postimg.org/9snq9wycp/Eastern_Poland_1931.png

Peterski

10-27-2014, 01:48 PM

And here is the data from Poland's 1931 census for areas east of the Curzon Line (east of the modern border of Poland):

Breakdown of people with Polish mother tongue by religion (according to 1931 census):

Woj. = Voivodeship
Poles = people with Polish language as mother tongue

Belarus & Lithuania:

Woj. Nowogródzkie - 553,859 Poles, including: 397,365 Roman Catholics, 147,236 Orthodoxs, 564 Greek Catholics, 5695 Jews
Woj. Poleskie - 164,106 Poles, including: 122,784 Roman Catholics, 36,052 Orthodoxs, 341 Greek Catholics, 935 Jews
City of Wilno - 128,628 Poles, including: 123,571 Roman Catholics, 2,863 Orthodoxs, 135 Greek Catholics, 393 Jews
Woj. Wileńskie - 633,095 Poles, including: 559,268 Roman Catholics, 65,780 Orthodoxs, 389 Greek Catholics, 1515 Jews
Woj. Białostockie (part east of the CL) - 184,200 Poles, including: 159,235 Roman Catholics, 22,265 Orthodoxs, 56 Greek Catholics, 540 Jews

Ukraine:

Woj. Tarnopolskie - 789,114 Poles, including: 574,085 Roman Catholics, 512 Orthodoxs, 157,219 Greek Catholics, 55,016 Jews
Woj. Wołyńskie - 346,640 Poles, including: 317,700 Roman Catholics, 20,159 Orthodoxs, 1159 Greek Catholics, 1975 Jews
Woj. Stanisławowskie - 332,175 Poles, including: 234,946 Roman Catholics, 164 Orthodoxs, 65,097 Greek Catholics, 30,071 Jews
City of Lwów - 198,212 Poles, including: 155,986 Roman Catholics, 303 Orthodoxs, 15,592 Greek Catholics, 24,007 Jews
Woj. Lwowskie (part east of the CL) - 540,925 Poles, including: 363,594 Roman Catholics, 248 Orthodoxs, 123,293 Greek Catholics, 43,786 Jews

TOTAL:

3,870,954 Poles in eastern Poland (east of the Curzon Line) according to 1931 census - including:

Roman Catholic Poles - 3,008,534
Greek Catholic Poles - 363,845
Orthodox Poles - 295,582
Jewish Poles - 163,933*
Other Poles (including atheists) - 39,060

*Jews whose mother tongue was Polish, rather than Yiddish or Hebrew.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 01:51 PM

W. Wakar, "Rozwój terytorialny narodowości polskiej", Kielce 1918
H. Merczyng, "Etnograficzno-statystyczny zarys liczebności i zasiedlenia ludności polskiej", Warszawa 1887
H. Merczyng & T. Tillinger, "Etnograficzno-statystyczny zarys liczebności i rozsiedlenia ludności polskiej", Warszawa 1909 (2nd edition)
E. Romer, "Geograficzno-statystyczny Atlas Polski", Warszawa-Kraków 1916
E. Romer, "Ilu nas jest?", Kraków 1917
Series of books "Opis ziem zamieszkanych przez Polaków..." (volume I - "Polish lands in Prussia" - was published in Warsaw in 1904)
A. Krzyżanowski, K. Kumaniecki, "Statystyka Polski", Kraków 1915
E. Romer, I. Weinfeld, "Rocznik Polski. Tablice statystyczne", Kraków 1917
S. Szuk, "Wartość materiałów statystycznych dot. stanu ludności b. Królestwa Polskiego", Warszawa 1920.

And many, many other studies...

This is a collection of titles from Polish sources. They are not professional studies showing census of 1897 was falsified as you claimed. The titles do not show anything.

=======================================

Percent ofRoman Catholics in Western Krai (Russian partition of Poland-Lithuania) in year 1867:

Belarus & Lithuania:

Kovno Gov. - 82,8%
Vilna Gov. - 68,1%
Grodno Gov. - 31,4%
Vitebsk Gov. - 29,9%
Minsk Gov. - 18,1%
Mogilev Gov. - 4,6%

Ukraine:

Volhynia Gov. - 11,3%
Podolia Gov. - 12,5%
Kiev Gov. - 4,4%

What's Russian partition of Poland -Lithuania in 1867? There was no census in 1867 anyway. Figures of 1867 are someone's estimation.

This is certainly not true when it comes to Roman Catholics.

Already Mikhail Nikolaevich Muraviov (born 1796 - died 1866) wrote:

"Our [Russian] government must become convinced that the first enemy of Russian nationality in this country is Polonism and therefore Catholicism, because the Catholic and the Pole are synonyms. This is why weakening the influence of Catholics is one of the most important means of action, that the government should pay attention to."

Source: Muraviov's memoirs.

Majority were Greek Catholic or Roman Catholic means Greek Catholic plus Roman Catholic relative to the total population.

They do not confirm this because Belarusians have very similar haplogroups and subclades as Poles:

================================================== =

Yout table is showing wrong data for Lithuanian population and outdated data for Belarusian population. Sub-clades of R1a1 of Belarusians and Poles are not similar. This plot is from the latest Underhill paper (2014) showing the distribution of subclades of R1a1 : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg201450a.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IpQjRAY4Sz8/UzN-VYES84I/AAAAAAAAJic/qN7oHY2ElNI/s1600/ejhg201450f4.jpg

N1c1 is another group which Poles lack in significant numbers unlike Belarusians (10%) or Lithuanians (36.7%). See Kasperaviciute study, who sampled Lithuanian regions proportionally : https://www.dropbox.com/s/g7kl75qtzdrtvpi/lithuanian_dna_2004.pdf?dl=0

Even today Poles are majority in many regions of north-western Belarus and southern Lithuania.

According to 1959 Soviet census the number of Poles in 1959 was:

In Belarus - 538,881
In Ukraine - 363,297
In Lithuania - 230,000
In Latvia - 59,774

Today is not 1959. Today is 2014. The last census in Belarus was in 2009. Poles were not majority in Hrodna region (north-western Belarus) in 1959 census making up for 30% of the population. Poles were not the majority in Hrodna region (north-western Belarus) in 2009 making up for 21.5% of the population. See official BelStat source for 2009 : http://belstat.gov.by/uploads/file/GU_demogr/5.8-4.pdf. This table (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D 0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1 %82%D1%8C#.D0.9D.D0.B0.D1.81.D0.B5.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0. BD.D0.B8.D0.B5) is showing ethnic composition of Belarus by regions for 1959, 1970, 1979, 1989, 1999, 2009.

Moreover, Poles of Belarus and Lithuania are polonised local population mostly. I've seen two genetic profiles of Pole who have ancestry in Belarus being similar to Belarusians. And read this scholar article in Belarusian (use translator if you need to) discussing it : http://kamunikat.org/7979.html The author states there is no disagreement between Lithuanian, Belarusian and Polish historians are Poles in Belarus and Lithuania are of local stock mostly. The same applies for Ukraine. Poles are foreign to these regions. A lot of people changed religion and language during PLC or Tsarist rule.

There was also a West Slavic tribe of Ledzianie (mentioned as: Lendizi in 843; Lendzanenoi in 912; Landzaneh in 940) in Eastern Galicia.

Ledzianie lived roughly in the area between modern Sanok-Drohobych-Lviv-Dubno-Hrubieszów, maybe also in areas farther west.

How is this information relevant to the discussion?

Peterski

10-27-2014, 01:56 PM

Moreover, Poles of Belarus and Lithuania are polonised local population mostly.

So what ???

Germans from Silesia and Pomerania were also mostly Germanized Poles & Pomeranians. I have seen data about haplogroups of Germans who before 1945 lived in Lower Silesia, and over 40% (I have in my mind 46% but I don't remember exactly and I don't have this source at hand currently, so can't check) of them had R1a haplogroup. By comparison Polish-speaking Upper Silesians have (if I remember correctly) 53% of R1a.

Hochmeister

10-27-2014, 02:00 PM

Litvin, czy mówisz po rosyjsku?

Smaug

10-27-2014, 02:08 PM

Vilnius* je Lietuva.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 02:12 PM

After WW2 - until year 1947 - 674 thousand Poles were deported from Belarus to Poland.

Poles were sent to settle newly acquired areas from Germany. It was their choice. But your figures are exaggerated once again. Less Poles left Lithuania and Belarus for Poland collectively after WWII than you have claimed.

It is estimated that about 150,000 to 250,000 Poles were deported from Belarus. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_(1944%E2%80%9346)#From _Belarus

Nobody has missed those Poles who fought in armia krajowa to create greater Poland on the land of western Belarus, western Ukraine and south-eastern Lithuania as they did between 1921-1939. In fact, it resulted in a tragedy in Volhynia. It'd be also nice if someone like makes a good use of the karta Polaka. It was created for your benefit :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karta_Polaka

The Polish census of 1931 - although also not fully accurate (too many Orthodox and Greek Catholic peoples were counted as Poles) was still much more accurate than the Russian census of 1897 (in which FAR too many Roman Catholics were counted as Great, White or Little Russians!).

And here are the results of the Polish census of 1931 for Eastern Poland:

You are not in a position to comment on accuracy of censuses.

Hevo

10-27-2014, 02:31 PM

Armstrong01, were the Krivichs Slavs (with a significant Baltic substrate) or Slavicized Balts? There are some discussions about this group on the internet.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 02:39 PM

Armstrong01, were the Krivichs Slavs (with a significant Baltic substrate) or Slavicized Balts? There are some discussions about this group on the internet.

Kiriviches ethnogenesis is a subject of a debate. Their Baltic substrate is ranging from little to plenty depending on scholar's opinion.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 02:46 PM

I am quoting scientific sources and you respond with Wikipedia.

There is a book (in Polish) "Przemiany ludnościowe na Ziemiach Odzyskanych 1945 - 1960".

It gives figures from the 1950 census - at that time there were in Poland almost 2,2 million Poles from families who in 1939 lived east of the Curzon Line.

The book also indicates what percent of them came from Belarus.

Later in 1955-1958 another almost 0,3 million Poles came from the Soviet Union.

And despite all those population transfers, in 1959 there were still 1,4 million Poles in the Soviet Union according to official census.

Also it is not true that most Poles from Kresy were only Polonized locals. There were huge Polish migrations and colonization during centuries as well.

Of course many locals were also Polonized but once getting Polonized they intermarried with Poles of immigrant background and everyone was genetically mixed with ancestors from both east and west of the Curzon Line.

For example among my ancestors there are both Polonized Lithuanians and immigrants from Greater Poland so you cannot dictate me who I am genetically. I know my genealogy tree and there are people from many regions and several ethnic backgrounds in it!

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 02:55 PM

I am quoting scientific sources and you respond with Wikipedia.

Wikipedia references official sources. I can search for the books if I had time. Poles living Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania is well discussed topic. There were not as many Poles left Lithuania and Belarus as you have claimed. The figure 670, 000 is close to a combined number for Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. 150,000-250,000 of people identifying themselves as Poles left Belarus. In exchange , Belarusians from Bialystok left for Belarus.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 03:03 PM

Litvin! Purposely, you exaggerated figures twisting facts many times. Anything you state will not be considered trustworthy by me.

ЛыSSый

10-27-2014, 03:13 PM

Vy o razdelyah govorite? Ja dumala o Vas lutshee... гыыы, панна Венеда, если я задел неприятную тему - то так и говорите.

ЛыSSый

10-27-2014, 03:17 PM

For a very long time most of Russia was not part of the Muscovite realm, by the way. by the way, pribaltic was bought by russia. so it must or be reunited (without population in a reason that GB and scandinavians much more needs those cheap slaves) or return money with persents.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 03:37 PM

Figures on repatriation between Poland and Ukraine/Belarus/Lithuania after WWII.

Thus, on 31 October 1946, 518, 000 moved from Poland to Soviet Union (in Ukraine – 482,109; in Belarus – 35, 961 and in Lithuania – 14 persons). At the same time, the reverse flow of the population was almost twice as large which was around 1,090 thousands ( from Ukraine – 789,982; from Belarus – 231, 152 and from Lithuania – 69, 724).

--
Source : The institute of Demography of the State University which cross-references :

1. A special folder. A special folder was the highest level of classified documents existed in the Soviet Politburo, USSR Council of Ministers in the government. Documents have indexes "OP" or cc / op. :
2 Марианьский А. Современные миграции населения. М., 1966 // Mariansky A, Modern migrations of population , 1966

http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2007/0313/analit06.php

Peterski

10-27-2014, 04:55 PM

The figure 670, 000 is close to a combined number for Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania.

Wrong.

According to 01.01.1947 census there were in total in Poland 2,050,000 people who in 1939 lived east of the Curzon Line.

Of them 1,700,000 lived in former German areas (Regained Lands) and 350,000 in the rest of Poland (Old Lands).

Those in the Regained Lands (1,699,800) included:

- 1,24 million people deported from the USSR after WW2 in an organized way (repatriations)
- 190 thousand who lived in Kresy in 1939, but after WW2 came from the west (for example came from forced labour in Germany, etc.)
- 200 thousand refugees who escaped from the Volhynian Genocide, etc., first to central Poland, then moved further west
- 70 thousand demobilized soldiers who in 1939 lived in Kresy

Total: 1,7 million (or 1,699,800) people from Kresy in the Regained Lands on 01.01.1947.

In addition to that, on 01.01.1947 there were 350 thousand people from Kresy in Central Poland - including over 250 thousand repatriates.

Total number was 2,05 million at that time. By the census of 1950 it increased to 2,2 million (including 0,6 million in Central Poland).

This data is from "Procesy ludnościowe na Ziemiach Odzyskanych 1945 - 1960" by Leszek Kosiński, Warsaw 1963.

And also from "Pochodzenie terytorialne ludności Ziem Zachodnich w 1950 r." by Leszek Kosiński, Warsaw 1960.

Litvin! Purposely, you exaggerated figures twisting facts many times. Anything you state will not be considered trustworthy by me.

You are nuts. :) I didn't exaggerate any figures, I have figures from good sources. It is you who is quoting internet websites all the time.

The 1963 book by Leszek Kosiński mentioned above contains Russian and English summaries, I can post scans if you want:

http://s16.postimg.org/bzlhqt5xx/Kosinski.png

If you want to know details about the population of Poland in 1950 or 1947 you must check Polish sources, not Soviet. That's obvious.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 05:18 PM

Thus, on 31 October 1946 (...) the reverse flow of the population was almost twice as large which was around 1,090 thousands

1,090 thousand until 31 October 1946 ??? This is rather too low. Until 31 December 1946 came 1,485,137 by trains + some by trucks.

So if your source is correct, then this would mean that in November and December came as many as around 400 thousand.

Organized repatriation of Poles from the Soviet Union to Poland was (source: Kosiński 1963 book, page 47 - Table 7):

By railway transport:

1944 - 117,212
1945 - 723,488
1946 - 644,437
1947 - 10,801
1948 - 7,325
1949 - 3,420

By motor transport:

1944 to 1949 - 22,815

In total in the first repatriation 1,529,498 people came to Poland (out of over 2,000,000 who registered - but not all of them were allowed to emigrate). I quoted the exact figure (page 47), in the English summary on page 123 Kosiński provides the rounded figure (1,5 million):

http://s7.postimg.org/4un6y3mwb/Eng_Summ.png

Later there was also the second repatriation of Poles from the USSR (1955 - 1958), but this is not in the timeframe we are talking about now.

Repatriation is not the full picture because apart from repatriation there were other ways how Poles from Kresy migrated to Poland after WW2. Already until 01.01.1947 almost 560,000 people who came through ways other than repatriation (including refugees, demobilized soldiers, those who before WW2 lived east of the Curzon Line but who after WW2 came from camps & forced labour in Germany and settled west of the CL, etc.).

In total on 1 January 1947 there were 2,05 million Eastern Poles in new borders of Poland. And in December 1950 - 2,2 million.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 05:51 PM

Poles were not majority in Hrodna region (north-western Belarus) in 1959 census making up for 30% of the population.

Read again - this time carefully - what I wrote (I did not write about the Grodno Oblast as a whole):

"Even today Poles are majority in many regions of north-western Belarus and southern Lithuania."

I wrote that Poles are majority in many regions of north-western Belarus, not in north-western Belarus as a whole! Today Poles are still majority of inhabitants in at least 4 raions of Belarus - Voranava Raion, Schuchyn Raion, Lida Raion & Grodno Raion (excluding Grodno City).

Peterski

10-27-2014, 06:14 PM

It is estimated that about 150,000 to 250,000 Poles were deported from Belarus

According to book "Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth-Century Central-Eastern Europe" by Jan Owsinski & Piotr Eberhardt - at least 470,000. So your estimates are extremely low. And here is the comparison of number of Poles in Belarus before WW2 and in 1959:

http://s8.postimg.org/4xhxjah7p/Belarus_Changes.png

The same for Ukraine:

http://s15.postimg.org/uwdd9f6gb/Ukraine_Changes.png

Ethnicities in pre-war Lithuania within pre-war borders (2.14) and within modern borders (2.16):

http://s30.postimg.org/6w8k2skld/Changes_Lithuania.png

======================================

Poles in Belarus before WW2 - maps:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/liczebnosc-polakow-na-kresach-w-obecnej-bialorusi/

http://konsnard.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ludnosc-grodzienszczyzna2.png?w=614&h=752

http://konsnard.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/rozmieszczenie-bialorus_min.png?w=614&h=554

Poles in Lithuania before WW2 - map:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/liczba-i-rozmieszczenie-ludnosci-polskiej-na-obszarach-obecnej-litwy/

http://konsnard.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/liczebnosc-na-litwie_min.png?w=614&h=501

And Poles in Lithuania today:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Poles_in_Lithuania_Barry_Kent.png

Roman Catholic population in Western Ukraine before WW2 (number of Poles was bigger than number of Roman Catholics):

http://konsnard.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ludnosc-malopolska-wschodnia-podole-wolyn_min.png?w=614

==========================================

Data from Piotr Eberhardt:

http://sociologia-by.livejournal.com/47551.html

Linguistic and religious structure of what later became Western Belarus in 1931:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/v/o/von_andersch/1931.jpg

Composition of population of Belarusian SSR in 1926 by language and by national identity:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/v/o/von_andersch/1926.jpg

Nationalities in Belarusian SSR in 1959 census in each Raion:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/v/o/von_andersch/1959.jpg

==========================================

Today there are 5,800,000 people in Poland (15% of the population) who have ancestors from Kresy (areas east of the Curzon Line):

Percent of people with some ancestors from Kresy as percent of total population of each voivodeship of modern Poland:

http://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/cbos-co-siodmy-polak-pochodzi-z-kresow

http://kresowiacy.com/2014/01/co-siodmy-polak-oswiadcza-ze-posiada-rodzica-dziadka-lub-pradziadka-urodzonego-na-dawnych-kresach/

http://kresowiacy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/1509264_680756405302300_857543543_n.jpg

Among these 5,800,000 people, 43% have at least one parent from Kresy, 38% have at least one grandparent from Kresy, 6% have at least one great-grandparent from Kresy and 13% are people who were themselves born in Kresy (mostly old people).

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 06:56 PM

You are nuts. :)

You one silly Pshek! I posted government official figures from the the Institute of Demography above.

Thus, on 31 October 1946, 518, 000 moved from Poland to Soviet Union (in Ukraine – 482,109; in Belarus – 35, 961 and in Lithuania – 14 persons). At the same time, the reverse flow of the population was almost twice as large which was around 1,090 thousands ( from Ukraine – 789,982; from Belarus – 231, 152 and from Lithuania – 69, 724).

--
Source : The institute of Demography of the State University which cross-references :

1. A special folder. A special folder was the highest level of classified documents existed in the Soviet Politburo, USSR Council of Ministers in the government. Documents have indexes "OP" or cc / op. :
2 Марианьский А. Современные миграции населения. М., 1966 // Mariansky A, Modern migrations of population , 1966

http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2007/0313/analit06.php

Peterski

10-27-2014, 06:59 PM

Number of Poles in Eastern Ukraine (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic; without Crimea) in 1926 and 1939 - according to Soviet censuses:

1926 - 476,400
January 1939 - 357,700

The decline was caused mostly by Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937 - 1938):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_%281937%E2%80%9338%29

I posted government official figures from the the Institute of Demography above.

These figures are only until 31 October 1946. I posted figures until 1949 when the First Repatriation ended - in case if you didn't notice.

Oh and what you posted are not official figures of the Polish government.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 07:09 PM

You one stupid Pshek!

Bow to your Feudal Lord, you one Belarusian Serf-Peasant. :)

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:12 PM

Read again - this time carefully - what I wrote (I did not write about the Grodno Oblast as a whole):

"Even today Poles are majority in many regions of north-western Belarus and southern Lithuania."

I wrote that Poles are majority in many regions of north-western Belarus, not in north-western Belarus as a whole! Today Poles are still majority of inhabitants in at least 4 raions of Belarus - Voranava Raion, Schuchyn Raion, Lida Raion & Grodno Raion (excluding Grodno City).

There're better terms to describe "many regions of north-western Belarus" such as certain districts in Hrodna region have Polish majority. Let's see. Data from 2009 census.

Voranaŭski rajon total population is 38,000. Poles - 80.77%. Belarusians - 13%. Majority are Poles.
Shchuchinskiy rajon total population 50,000. 45% - Belarusians , 46% - Poles. The population is about even.
Lidski rajon total population 47,300. Belarusians 51.38%, Poles - 35.28% Majority are Belarusians.
Hrodzienski rajon (without Hrodna city) Total population is 58,600. Belarusians - 55.98%, Poles - 33.6%. Majority are Belarusians.

So, really it's only Voranaŭski rajon (district) in which absolute majority are Poles. And it's "not many regions in north-western Belarus". It's only one district in Hrodna region that has a total population of 38,000

As I said earlier you are full of shit.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:13 PM

Bow to your Feudal Lord, you one Belarusian Serf-Peasant. :)

Take a hike lobotomised idiot. ;)

Peterski

10-27-2014, 07:14 PM

As I said earlier you are full of shit.

You have not posted a single source of value that would debunk my data. So who is full of shit?

You are full of anti-Polish shit. You don't like the Polish part of history of your country because it depresses you.

5,800,000 people within modern borders of Poland are descendants of people from Kresy and you can't change it.

Just like you can't change our presence (despite all deportations) in Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Latvia even today.

You can't hide history under propaganda man. Vilno is a Lithuanian city but it is also a Polish city - deal with it.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:25 PM

Already until 01.01.1947 almost 560,000 people who came through ways other than repatriation (including refugees, demobilized soldiers, those who before WW2 lived east of the Curzon Line but who after WW2 came from camps & forced labour in Germany and settled west of the CL, etc.).

In total on 1 January 1947 there were 2,05 million Eastern Poles in new borders of Poland. And in December 1950 - 2,2 million.

I gave you the most accurate figures from government source on the number of repatriates left by 1946. There were more repatriation from Belarus later, some of whom went to Lithuania . But the bulk of people left by 1946. Majority of Polish repatriates were from Ukraine due ethnic tensions in western Ukraine and because Ukraine is a larger country with a population 5 times that of Belarus.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 07:29 PM

And I gave you the most accurate government source on the number of repatriates who came to Communist Poland.

So how is it possible that the number who came was higher than the number who left ???

But the bulk of people left by 1946.

Your source claims that it is the number who left by 31 October 1946. Two months before the end of the year.

My source says how many left until 31 December 1946 and your source only until 31 October - so what's the problem?

If so many people left during November and December then our sources are in agreement and both are correct.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:33 PM

You have not posted a single source of value that would debunk my data. So who is full of shit?

You are full of anti-Polish shit. You don't like the Polish part of history of your country because it depresses you.

5,800,000 people within modern borders of Poland are descendants of people from Kresy and you can't change it.

Just like you can't change our presence (despite all deportations) in Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Latvia even today.

I stated that data come from Belarusian Census of 2009 . How difficult to type the name of district following cross links to http://www.belstat.gov.by/ ?

You can't hide history under propaganda man. Vilno is a Lithuanian city but it is also a Polish city - deal with it.

Vilnius has always been a capital and a cultural centre of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania which was a separate state with its own constitution during PLC era. Vilnius has been a multicultural city and a cultural capital of Lithuanians and Belarusians. Something cannot be said about Poles. Poles are immigrants in Lithuania. Deal with it.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:38 PM

And I gave you the most accurate government source on the number of repatriates who came to Communist Poland.

So how is it possible that the number who came was higher than the number who left ???

Accurate sources come from the government. The territory was under soviet government. That's what I provided above by 31/10/1946.

Your source claims that it is the number who left by 31 October 1946. Two months before the end of the year.

If so many people left during November and December then our sources are in agreement.

There maybe an margin of error. Still claiming 3 x times more left Belarus than official figures and figures from other sources is far-fetched. Your source is unreliable.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 07:42 PM

the Grand Duchy of Lithuania which was a separate state with its own constitution during PLC.

The Constitution of May 3 1791 was common for entire PLC, though.

And the PLC was one state, but it was a federation - like modern Russia or modern Germany.

But nobody says that Bavaria is a separate state from Rhineland, for example.

Poles are immigrants in Lithuania.

As much as English people (Anglo-Saxons) are immigrants in Britain!

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:42 PM

Litvin! Why don't you go to UK to advocate for greater Poland? UK has more Polish immigrants than Belarus and Lithuania. ;)

Peterski

10-27-2014, 07:46 PM

After several centuries of living in a place, you are not an immigrant! Poles in Lithuania are as much immigrants as English are in Britain!

And by the way I told you that I have mixed ancestors - both Poles who came from Poland and Polonized local Lithuanians.

Why do you go to UK to advocate for greater Poland?

You confused Poles with Saxons. Those were Saxons who went to Britain and advocated for the Kingdom of Wessex! :)

ЛыSSый

10-27-2014, 07:47 PM

You can't hide history under propaganda man. Vilno is a Lithuanian city but it is also a Polish city - deal with it. with the same rights cockroaches in your flat can say that one his own property. Or lice on your head say that you is theirs property.

В 1721 году по Ништадскому миру Петр I купил у Швеции Лифляндию, заплатив побежденной Швеции... 2 млн. золотых талеров. В январе 1795 года глава Курляндского герцогства герцог Петр Бирон начал переговоры с Екатериной II и в итоге отрекся от престола за два миллиона рублей и ежегодную пенсию в 69 тысяч таллеров. В итоге 27 мая 1795 года Курляндское герцогство стало Курляндской губернией. Третья часть территории будущей Латвии — Латгалия, став частью Витебской губернии, вошла в состав Российской империи чуть ранее — в 1792 году, после первого раздела Польши.

Итого: две части куплены Россией за деньги, одна — получена в итоге признанного всеми державами договорного процесса.
traslation

In 1721 at Nystadt peace agreement Peter I bought Swedish Livonia, paying Sweden ... 2 millions of Golden Taler. In January 1795 the head of the Duchy of Courland Duke Peter Biron started talks with Catherine II and eventually abdicated for two million rubles, and an annual pension of 69 thousand Taller. In the end, 27 May 1795 the Duchy of Courland became Courland. The third part of the future of Latvia - Latgale, becoming part of Vitebsk province, joined the Russian Empire, a little earlier - in 1792, after the first partition of Poland.
but now all pribaltic like gypsy pickpocketers )))

but i think, that russia a rather rich couuntry for gifting this lands to poland. with some rules. for example all inhabbits must know and pass exams for polish language for getting a basic civil ights.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:49 PM

The Constitution of May 3 1791 was common for entire PLC, though.

Right! And 4 years later, in 1795, there was no PLC.

And the PLC was one state, but it was a federation - like modern Russia or modern Germany. But nobody says that Bavaria is a separate state from Rhineland, for example.As much as English people (Anglo-Saxons) are immigrants in Britain!

Federation was around for 220 years. The GDL was formed in 12th century according to some scholars. It was definitely around during Mindaugas coronation in mid 13th century. So was Vilnius for a long time.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 07:50 PM

Accurate sources come from the government. The territory was under soviet government.

Poland was under Polish Communist government, not under Soviet government.

So Polish government counted how many people came from areas east of the Curzon Line.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 07:57 PM

After several centuries of living in a place, you are not an immigrant! Poles in Lithuania are as much immigrants as English are in Britain!

And by the way I told you that I have mixed ancestors - both Poles who came from Poland and Polonized local Lithuanians.

It doesn't matter if you have Baltic ancestors. Many eastern Slavs have Baltic ancestors too. What matters is cultural and linguistic ties.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 08:03 PM

Poland was under Polish Communist government, not under Soviet government.

So Polish government counted how many people came from areas east of the Curzon Line.

I didn't see you providing sources of Polish government. You referenced some books in which authors accounted for total number without specifying countries of origins in most cases. I told you Ukraine was by far the largest source of Polish repatriates. More Poles left Ukraine than Belarus and Lithuanian collectively.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 08:11 PM

What matters is cultural and linguistic ties.

But matters in what exactly? Polish culture and language are integral parts of the history of the GDL. Vilno is a Lithuanian city, but Lithuania is not a country for Lietuviai only. We Poles are a historical minority here, not recent immigrants. And stop being angry that in the past Poland annexed Vilno after WW1, because Lithuania also annexed parts of the Congress Kingdom of Poland. Poland annexed Vilno on ethnic grounds - majority of inhabitants of the region were Polish or Polonized. The same but reverse was the case in Władysławów (Vladislavovas), Kalwaria (Kalvarija), Wyłkowyszki (Vilkaviškis), Mariampol (Marijampolė) - Lithuania annexed those parts of the Kingdom Poland (and earlier of the Duchy of Warsaw) on ethnic grounds. And remember that Kaunas in 1807 - 1918 was a border city (like Görlitz/Zgorzelec today) - half of Kaunas was located in Poland!

The Grand Duchy of Litva was a realm of both Belarusians, Lithuanians and Poles.

Federation was around for 220 years. The GDL was formed in 12th century according to some scholars. It was definitely around during Mindaugas coronation in mid 13th century. So was Vilnius for a long time.

Since 1385 until 1569 there was a political union (with some short breaks for quarrels) and since 1569 until 1795 a real federation.

During that time people from both countries migrated internally, intermingled and intermarried.

After 1795 the union did not stop because even as late as 1863-1864 all main ethnic groups of the PLC fought united against Russia.

Something happened in the 2nd half of the 19th century that nationalisms based on language divided us into hostile groups. :(

I told you Ukraine was by far the largest source of Polish repatriates.

Yes, it was the largest source - but not by far. From Ukraine came only a bit more than 50% of all repatriates.

Hochmeister

10-27-2014, 08:15 PM

Peterski

10-27-2014, 08:47 PM

Я понимаю, но плохо говорю по-русски.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 09:48 PM

But matters in what exactly? Polish culture and language are integral parts of the history of the GDL. Vilno is a Lithuanian city, but Lithuania is not a country for Lietuviai only. We Poles are a historical minority here, not recent immigrants. And stop being angry that in the past Poland annexed Vilno after WW1, because Lithuania also annexed parts of the Congress Kingdom of Poland. Poland annexed Vilno on ethnic grounds - majority of inhabitants of the region were Polish or Polonized. The same but reverse was the case in Władysławów (Vladislavovas), Kalwaria (Kalvarija), Wyłkowyszki (Vilkaviškis), Mariampol (Marijampolė) - Lithuania annexed those parts of the Kingdom Poland (and earlier of the Duchy of Warsaw) on ethnic grounds. And remember that Kaunas in 1807 - 1918 was a border city (like Görlitz/Zgorzelec today) - half of Kaunas was located in Poland!

It's going to take a dozen of your kind to make angry. I am only making fun of you. Poland didn't just annex Vilnius. It annexed south-eastern Lithuania, western Belarus all the way to Minsk, and western Ukraine. Local Poles were recruited into Armia Krajowa to annex the land I stated earlier that I don't care what language anyone speaks or what is his or her religion. If you live in a country you have to be loyal to the country and people of the country. The same applies to other ethnicities.

The Grand Duchy of Litva was a realm of both Belarusians, Lithuanians and Poles.

The realm of Poles was Kingdom of Poland. On the other hand Lithuanians and Belarusians are strongly attached to heritage of the GDL because both peoples have been in the realm of the GDL since its inception till the end.

Since 1385 until 1569 there was a political union (with some short breaks for quarrels) and since 1569 until 1795 a real federation.

Union of Krewo was personal union of Jagiello. Both countries were separate states till 1569.

During that time people from both countries migrated internally, intermingled and intermarried.

People did not migrate prior to 1569 except possibly for upper classes. I find difficult to imagine Polish peasants wanting to settle among swamps and forests in areas with little fertile land. That's the kind of terrain in most of Belarus and south-eastern Lithuania. Most ordinary people were polonised as late as 17th-18th centuries. Read the article in Belarusian to which I linked you early. It was written by a scholar providing many references.

After 1795 the union did not stop because even as late as 1863-1864 all main ethnic groups of the PLC fought united against Russia.

Something happened in the 2nd half of the 19th century that nationalisms based on language divided us into hostile groups. :(

The federation between Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania ended in 1795 despite upraisings in the 19th centuries. In fact, Russians and Prussians meddled in PLC internal affairs long before the last partion of PLC. Poland and Finland enjoyed some status in the Russian empire, while Belarus and Lithuania were known as north-western Kraj.

Yes, it was the largest source - but not by far. From Ukraine came only a bit more than 50% of all repatriates.

Belarus lost 25% of population in WWII. Most casualties were among Jews probably. Authorities would not have allowed 670K+ of people to leave the country after WWII. All the sources I encountered always featured figures of no more than 250K-300K. Maybe some left for Lithuania or deported in Sebiria. The figure 670K+ is a gross exaggeration for small Belarus. You need to double check your sources.

FeederOfRavens

10-27-2014, 10:12 PM

Grand duchy of Lithuania was founded by Lithuanians that later conquered and absorbed Belarusians principalities. Vilnius in Lithuanian.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 10:18 PM

Grand duchy of Lithuania was founded by Lithuanians that later conquered and absorbed Belarusians principalities. Vilnius in Lithuanian.

Most territories joined Lithuania relatively peacefully. Belarusian upper class were welcoming Lithuanian dukes fearing Mongol invasion that overran territories of present day Ukraine and Russia. Lithuanians had a strong army in 13-14th centuries.

Peterski

10-27-2014, 10:24 PM

It annexed south-eastern Lithuania, western Belarus all the way to Minsk, and western Ukraine.

There was no such thing like "western Ukraine". That area was called Red Ruthenia and was part of Poland since ca. 1340.

And remember that Soviet Russia simply agreed that this area was going to be Polish in the Treaty of Riga.

Minsk was Soviet after the treaty of Riga, even though it also had a significant Polish minority.

People did not migrate prior to 1569 except possibly for upper classes.

They clearly did - and all classes, not just upper classes. There are many sources proving this. BTW - people migrate all the time.

If you live in a country you have to be loyal to the country and people of the country. The same applies to other ethnicities.

By this logic western Ukrainians should be loyal to Poland which was their country since ca. 1340. Lwow was Polish since 1340.

And Lithuanians in Suwałki Governorate should be loyal to Poland because it was part of Duchy of Warsaw & Congress Poland.

In the 1st half of the 20th century everyone tried to include their ethnic minorities from other countries, into their own country.

All the sources I encountered always featured figures of no more than 250K-300K. Maybe some left for Lithuania or deported in Sebiria. The figure 670K+ is a gross exaggeration for small Belarus. You need to double check your sources.

Check again which source says 670 K. It is not a Polish source but a propaganda Soviet source from 1956. It says that over 670 K people migrated from Belarus to Poland after WW2. But it says that only 120 K of them were Poles, while 550 K were Belarusians and Jews.

Obviously not only the ethnic composition of those 670 K is wrong (only Poles and also some Polonized Jews moved from Belarus to Poland after WW2), but also the overall number - 670 K - is grossly exaggerated. But as I wrote, this is "your", Soviet, source - not a Polish source!

Polish sources say about up to 400 K moving from Belarus to Poland in 1944 - 1949 and around 70 K more in 1955 - 1959. Total 470 K.

If you add spontaneous emigration, the maximum was 500 K (which is what I originally claimed as the highest possible number).

This of course includes emigration to Poland from both Western Belarus and Eastern Belarus. While in official repatriation statistics only those who came from Western Belarus (that part which was Polish before 1939) are counted as "Belarus". Others are counted as "Soviet Union".

This is why there is a problem to estimate how many exactly came from Eastern Belarus.

Union of Krewo was personal union of Jagiello.

Remember that the Union of Krewo was followed by other agreements.

For example in 1413 after the Union of Horodło Lithuanian boyars were "adopted" into Polish nobility and granted Polish coats of arms.

And in the Union of Krewo Jagiello actually promised Polish nobility to:

"Demum etiam Jagalo dux saepedictus promittit terras suas Litvaniae et Rusiae coronae regni Poloniae perpetuo applicare."

So Jagiello promised to incorporate Lithuania and Russian lands to Poland forever (perpetuo applicare).

This is precisely why many Lithuanian nationalists of the past considered Jagiello as a traitor of the Grand Duchy.

He "sold" his realm to Polish nobility, in exchange for Polish crown and Polish wife.

But at that time Poland was necessary for Lithuania to defeat the Teutonic Order - Poland was smaller in territory, but larger in population and in economy and more developed. As you admitted in post #165, large parts of Lithuania were swamps and forests.

In 1385 the Grand Duchy of Lithuania had much lower population density than the Kingdom of Poland.

Partially it was because of the Mongol invasions and occupation, which killed many people and hampered population growth.

ЛыSSый

10-27-2014, 10:29 PM

Czy mówisz po rosyjsku, kurwa?

Я понимаю, но плохо говорю по-русски.
зато как радостно на курву отозвался

Peterski

10-27-2014, 10:57 PM

I just didn't notice it before, when it was without kurwa. :) It always makes your message more visible. ^^

Peterski

10-27-2014, 11:07 PM

On the other hand Lithuanians and Belarusians are strongly attached to heritage of the GDL

Yes I know. Old Belarusian was actually the official language of the GDL for a long time. Later Polish replaced it as official language.

Lithuanians are mostly attached to the Medieval period of the GDL while Old Belarusian culture had its golden age in the 1500s.

In fact, Russians and Prussians meddled in PLC internal affairs long before the last partion of PLC.

They were able to do that mostly because of Liberum Veto. It was enough to bribe one deputy to ruin everything.

Funny that Liberum Veto was originally invented as a security mechanism against corruption (so that "one honest" deputy could stop others if they acted in a corrupted way). While in the end it started to be used by corrupted deputies who acted as puppets of foreign powers.

Veneda

10-27-2014, 11:11 PM

Yes I know. Old Belarusian was actually the official language of the GDL for a long time. Later Polish replaced it as official language.

Lithuanians are mostly attached to the Medieval period of the GDL while Old Belarusian culture had its golden age in the 1500s.

They were able to do that mostly because of Liberum Veto. It was enough to bribe one deputy to ruin everything.

Odpuść, proszę. Po co gadasz z kimś, kto oddzielił się na własną prośbę od swoich korzeni.

FeederOfRavens

10-27-2014, 11:12 PM

Yes I know. Old Belarusian was actually the official language of the GDL for a long time. Later Polish replaced it as official language.

Lithuanians are mostly attached to the Medieval period of the GDL while Old Belarusian culture had its golden age in the 1500s.

Yes, the GDL declined in favour of Poland when Belarusians became dominant instead of strong, expansionist Lithuanian chieftains.

Rugevit

10-27-2014, 11:34 PM

There was no such thing like "western Ukraine". That area was called Red Ruthenia and was part of Poland since 1340.

Were Rivne and Volhynia regions occupied by Poland between 1921-1939 also part of Poland since 1340? Tell that to Ukrainians of Volhynia. And much of Galicia was part of Austro-Hungarian empire before WWI.

And Poland did not annex anything but Soviet Russia simply ceded that area to Poland in the Treaty of Riga.

Poland didn't annex anything from Soviet Russia, as 'Soviet Russia' was a separate republic of USSR. Belarus and Ukraine were also separate republics of USSR. Poland annexed land from Belarusian and Ukrainian republics.

They clearly did - and all classes, not just upper classes. There are many sources proving this. BTW - people migrate all the time.

I presented a scholarly source stating Poles were polonised local people. Besides, Poles of Lithuania and Belarus are genetically similar to local population. Clearly, you are have no idea what you are talking about or your sources are as reliable as most sources you provided earlier.

By this logic western Ukrainians should be loyal to Poland which was their country since 1340. Lwow was Polish since 1340.

And Lithuanians in Suwałki Governorate should be loyal to Poland because it was part of Duchy of Warsaw & Congress Poland.

In the 1st half of the 20th century everyone tried to include their ethnic minorities in other countries, into their own country.

Get your facts straight. Not all of western Ukraine was part of Poland since 1340. Western Ukrainians are native to western Ukraine unlike Poles. The logic here would be to stay loyal to people of western Ukraine.

Check again which source says 670 K. It is not a Polish source but a propaganda Soviet source from 1956. It says that over 670 K people migrated from Belarus to Poland after WW2. But it says that only 120 K of them were Poles, while 550 K were Belarusians and Jews

Why would Belarusians be sent to Poland, if in fact Belarusians were sent from Poland to Belarus to replace lost population during WWII? And what was point of you referencing propaganda Soviet source anyway? To amuse me with a large number of repatriates?

.Obviously not only the ethnic composition of those 670 K is wrong (only Poles and also some Polonized Jews moved from Belarus to Poland after WW2), but also the overall number - 670 K - is grossly exaggerated. But as I wrote, this is "your", Soviet, source - not a Polish source!

It was your soviet propaganda source, as it was presented by you.

Polish sources say about up to 400 K moving from Belarus to Poland in 1944 - 1949 and around 70 K more in 1955 - 1959. Total 470 K.If you add spontaneous emigration, the maximum was 500 K (which is what I originally claimed as the highest possible number).

This of course includes emigration to Poland from both Western Belarus and Eastern Belarus. While in official repatriation statistics only those who came from Western Belarus (that part which was Polish before 1939) are counted as "Belarus". Others are counted as "Soviet Union".

This is why there is a problem to estimate how many exactly came from Eastern Belarus.

This Polish source is likely to be as accurate as the soviet propaganda source you referenced and all other figures you provided such as numbers for ethnic composition in some districts of Hrodna region. On the other hand, I provided official data from state archive for Polish repatriates from Belarus by the end of 1946. It's unlikely you will find any more accurate data.

PS I am seriously doubting your ability to assess quality of information.

Remember that the Union of Krewo was followed by other agreements.

For example in 1413 after the Union of Horodło Lithuanian boyars were "adopted" into Polish nobility and granted Polish coats of arms.

And in the Union of Krewo Jagiello actually promised Polish nobility to:

"Demum etiam Jagalo dux saepedictus promittit terras suas Litvaniae et Rusiae coronae regni Poloniae perpetuo applicare."

So Jagiello promised to incorporate Lithuania and [Bela]Russia to Poland forever (perpetuo applicare).

This is precisely why many Lithuanian nationalists of the past considered Jagiello as a traitor of the Grand Duchy.

He "sold" his realm to Polish nobility, in exchange for Polish crown and Polish wife.

But at that time Poland was necessary for Lithuania to defeat the Teutonic Order - Poland was smaller in territory, but larger in population and in economy, richer and more developed. As you admitted in post #165, large parts of Lithuania were swamps and forests.

In 1385 the Grand Duchy of Lithuania had much lower population density than the Kingdom of Poland.

Partially it was because of the Mongol invasions and occupation, which killed many people and hampered population growth.

Union of Horodło was another agreement involving 47 Lithuanian boyars. It has nothing to do with formation of Polish Lithuanian federation. I am certain there were many political promises from either side. Something that was common in other countries of Europe. All that is irrelevant as there was no federation till 1569. Stronger union between the two states achieved after Brest Union (1595) and after Ruthenian language lost official status in GDL (1693).

Peterski

10-28-2014, 01:19 AM

Western Ukrainians are native to western Ukraine unlike Poles.

Lendians were one of Polish tribes native to Red Ruthenia (term Ukraine was not used before the 16th century - being for the first time used by Hetman Jan Zamoyski - and even in the 16th century it did not encompass those territories, which were known under different names).

I presented a scholarly source stating Poles were polonised local people.

Wikipedia is not a "scholarly source". Or did you quote some other source too?

There are many sources which say about migrations of people from Poland to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

I provided official data from state archive for Polish repatriates from Belarus by the end of 1946.

Which number was from Belarus? I thought that your number until 31 October 1946 was from entire Kresy, not only from Belarus.

Belarus and Ukraine were also separate republics of USSR. Poland annexed land from Belarusian and Ukrainian republics.

The USSR did not exist before 30 December 1922, so Belarusian and Ukrainian republics of it also did not exist before 1922.

You cannot annex land from something which does not exist yet !!!

======================================

The last Russian census in the Vilno Governorate before WW1 was not in 1897 but in 1909 (it was a local census, not an All-Russian one).

The census of 1909 in the Vilno Governorate counted 1,755,328 inhabitants* (including 205,250 in the City of Vilno).

*Census of 1897 counted 1,544,564 inhabitants (including 154,532 in the City of Vilno).

The results of this 1909 census as well prove that the previous 1897 census was falsified, underestimating Poles.

For example according to 1897 census % of Poles in Vilno County was 12,6% while according to 1909 census - 47,0%.

Another example - in Trakai County according to 1897 census Poles numbered 11,2% while according to 1909 census - 21,7%.

City of Vilno according to 1909 census had 109,808 Poles - 53,3% of its population. More than according to 1897 census. In the city council of Vilno in 1909 there were 76 people - including 59 Poles, 9 Russians, 7 Jews and 1 Lithuanian. By 1909 census Poles owned 2331 real estates in the city (Jews - 1322; Russians - 582; Lithuanians - 20; all others - 67). The city was Polish-governed, Polish-owned and Polish-inhabited.

There were 24 periodicals in Polish language in Vilno in 1909. And the main printing house in Vilno was owned by Józef Zawadzki.

Russian census of 1897 is as "reliable" as data on Russian casualties in the Great Patriotic War or in the Russian Civil War !!! :laugh2:

========================================

To summ up this discussion and to end this farce and this denial of Polishness in Belarus & Lithuania, let's quote Hipolit Korwin-Milewski, one of Poles from Vilno who had problems with dumb Russian officials not willing to recognize his Polishness (it was against their agenda):

"You need to be 3 Poles in 1 person and be able to declare your nationality with unusual stubbornness to be recognized as a Pole in Russian statistics." :cool:

Source: Hipolit Korwin-Milewski, "Uwagi o konflikcie języków polskiego i litewskiego w dyecezyi wileńskiej", published in Vilno in 1913.

And now I will listen to advice by Veneda i już odpuszczę. :)

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 07:54 AM

Lendians were one of Polish tribes native to Red Ruthenia (term Ukraine was not used before the 16th century - being for the first time used by Hetman Jan Zamoyski - and even in the 16th century it did not encompass those territories, which were known under different names).

Only a small number of Lendians lived in Western Ukrainian. Volhynians and Dregovices also lived in eastern Poland. It does not matter under which name ancestors of western Ukrainians identified themselves in the past, as linguistic and cultural ties can be traced to the 11th century.

Wikipedia is not a "scholarly source". Or did you quote some other source too?There are many sources which say about migrations of people from Poland to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

I referenced a scholarly paper written by a professional historian , who has a higher doctorate in history. Use translator if you need : http://kamunikat.org/7979.html

Which number was from Belarus? I thought that your number until 31 October 1946 was from entire Kresy, not only from Belarus.

I provided the information twice. Hopefully, you can manage it from third attempt

Thus, on 31 October 1946, 518, 000 moved from Poland to Soviet Union (in Ukraine – 482,109; in Belarus – 35, 961 and in Lithuania – 14 persons). At the same time, the reverse flow of the population was almost twice as large which was around 1,090 thousands ( from Ukraine – 789,982; from Belarus – 231, 152 and from Lithuania – 69, 724).

Source : The institute of Demography of the State University which cross-references :

1. A special folder. A special folder was the highest level of classified documents existed in the Soviet Politburo, USSR Council of Ministers in the government. Documents have indexes "OP" or cc / op. :
2 Марианьский А. Современные миграции населения. М., 1966 // Mariansky A, Modern migrations of population , 1966

http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2007/0313/analit06.php

The USSR did not exist before 30 December 1922, so Belarusian and Ukrainian republics of it also did not exist before 1922.

You're wrong as with much of what you wrote earlier. Separate Republics existed before Polish occupation.

25/03/1919 – Belarusian People's Republic. Unofficial independence day of Belarus to this day is on 25/03
01/01/1919 – Soviet Socialist Republic of Belarus
27/03/1919 – Soviet Socialist Republic of Belarus and Lithuania known as LitBel Republic
After Polish occupation by Poland LitBel Republic ceased to exist and Soviet Socialist Republic of Belarus was created on 31/06/1920

Source:Брыгадзін П. І., Ладысеў У. Ф.Беларусь паміж Усходам і Захадам: Станаўленне дзяржаўнасці і тэрытарыяльнай цэласнасці Беларусі (1917—1939гг.).

--
Ukrainian People's Republic from 1917
Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic was created on 10/03/1919
Bessarabian Socialist Soviet Republic with capital in Odessa on in May 1919
Galician Socialist Sovet republic in 1920 during Polish-Soviet war
--

Before 1917-1918 the territory of Belarus and Lithuania was known as North-Western Kraj in the Russian empire, because authorities recognised cultural differences of the region knowing its different historical past. Thus, Governates were created encompassing former territories of the GDL. : Vilna Governate (south-eastern Lithuania and north-western Belarus) , Kovno governate (Lithuania), Grodno Governate (western Belarus), Minsk Governate (central Belarus) Mogilev Governate (eastern Belarus) and Vitebsk Governate (northern Belarus and eastern Latvia, Latgalia) Before Imperial Russian rule the region was in the GDL .
As you can see , there is a separate historic development of the region on which Poles living in Belarus served in Armija Krajowa to occupy the land. Also, western Ukraine was occupied by Poland, as it's seen by Ukrainian historians. Polish occupation of western Ukraine between 1921-1939 is one of the reasons for Volhynian tragedy according to Polish and Ukrainian historians.

The last Russian census in the Vilno Governorate before WW1 was not in 1897 but in 1909 (it was a local census, not an All-Russian one).

The census of 1909 in the Vilno Governorate counted 1,755,328 inhabitants* (including 205,250 in the City of Vilno).

LOL. So much effort for so little valuable information.

Lithuanian delegation did not except the results of census of 1909 stating Polish population in Vilno governate was not higher than 20%. Falsification of local census of 1909 occurring after first Russian revolution of 1905 followed by a set of new legislations is widely discussed in the literature. On the other hand, the results of 1897 census reflected ethnic composition of Vilno governate accurately enough.

To summ up this discussion and to end this farce and this denial of Polishness in Belarus & Lithuania, let's quoteHipolit Korwin-Milewski, one of Poles from Vilno who had problems with dumb Russian officials not willing to recognize his Polishness (it was against their agenda):

There is always another country to enjoy your Polishness like Poland or UK. ;) But back to the facts, Lithuanian delegation questioned accuracy of census of 1909. Census of 1897 was more accurate as it seems to have been accepted by historians and politicians. In addition, Lithuanian linguist Zinkevicius presented a map of Belarusian, Lithuanian and Polish languages spoken in Vilno Governate in early 20th century. Belarusian was widely spoken in rural areas around Vilnius city This provides another piece of evidence that census of 1897 was accurate enough. And probably, linguistic evidence provides most accurate information on ethnic composition given turbalent circumstances in the beginning of the 20th century.

And now I will listen to advice byVenedai już odpuszczę.

I told a while ago to take a hike. ;)

glass

10-28-2014, 08:37 AM

"You need to be 3 Poles in 1 person and be able to declare your nationality with unusual stubbornness to be recognized as a Pole in Russian statistics." :cool:

Census 1897 recored mother tongue not nationality or ethnicity.

Peterski

10-28-2014, 09:09 AM

It does not matter under which name ancestors of western Ukrainians identified themselves in the past, as linguistic and cultural ties can be traced to the 11th century.

Carpatho-Rusyns (Ruthenians) were another culture, not Ukrainians. Today due to Ukrainization in the north they live mostly south of the Carpathians, but before WW2 they lived north of the Carpathians - in Poland - as well. If you check the Polish census of 1931 you can see that there were Ukrainians and a separate group - Ruthenians. There were also Belarusians and Poleshuks. According to Ukrainian nationalists Poleshuks were Ukrainians, according to Belarusian nationalists they were Belarusians, while in reality they were intermediate between Belarusians-Ukrainians-Poles.

Separate Republics existed before Polish occupation.

But those republics did not have international recognition yet at that time.

I can also gather my friends and declare creation of a new republic like that! :)

Lithuanian delegation did not except the results of census of 1909 stating Polish population in Vilno governate was not higher than 20%. Falsification of local census of 1909 occurring after first Russian revolution of 1905 followed by a set of new legislations is widely discussed in the literature. On the other hand, the results of 1897 census reflected ethnic composition of Vilno governate accurately enough.

No - it was the 1897 census which was falsified. Lithuanian delegation deluded itself and had fantasy dreams.

The 1909 census was in agreement with 1916, 1917, 1931 and even 1959 censuses.

So you have 4 censuses versus 1 census and you still support this 1 - and who has an agenda?!

BTW - 1897 was, if I remember correctly, not the first census in the Vilno Region. Earlier censuses - just like later ones (of 1909, 1916, 1917, 1931 and even 1959) confirmed that the region was more Polish-inhabited than according to 1897 census.

For God's sake even modern censuses confirm that we are still majority in the Vilno Region, except for the city itself which was de-polonized after WW2. You are denying obvious facts. Even after post-war repatriations Poles are still majority here! :)

Census of 1897 was more accurate as it seems to have been accepted by historians and politicians.
It was only accepted by historians and politicians of nations which have an anti-Polish agenda!

census reflected ethnic composition of Vilno governate accurately enough.

As Glasses wrote above, that census counted language - not ethnic composition.

Today there are many people in Belarus who speak Belarusian but identify as Poles - check this.

I told a while ago to take a hike.

I did take it - thanks! ;)

Peterski

10-28-2014, 09:25 AM

Belarusian was widely spoken in rural areas around Vilnius city

I want to hear how that "Belarusian" sounds. :) IMO it was just a local dialect of Polish.

Peterski

10-28-2014, 10:05 AM

Thus, on 31 October 1946, 518, 000 moved from Poland to Soviet Union (in Ukraine – 482,109; in Belarus – 35, 961 and in Lithuania – 14 persons). At the same time, the reverse flow of the population was almost twice as large which was around 1,090 thousands ( from Ukraine – 789,982; from Belarus – 231, 152 and from Lithuania – 69, 724).

Repatriation by railway from the USSR to Poland in 1944 - 1949:

Year - Lithuania / Western Belarus / Western Ukraine / other parts of the USSR (including Eastern Ukraine & Eastern Belarus) / Total:

1944 - -------- / ------- / 117,212 / ------- / 117,212
1945 - 53,899- / 135,654 / 511,877 / 22,058- / 723,488
1946 - 123,443 / 136,419 / 158,435 / 226,140 / 644,437
1947 - 671---- / 2,090-- / 76----- / 7,964--- / 10,801
1948 - ------- / ------- / 74------ / 7,251--- / 7,325
1949 - ------- / ------- / -------- / 3,420--- / 3,420

Total - 178,013 / 274,163 / 787,674 / 266,833 / 1,506,683

So 274,163 came during repatriation by railway from Western Belarus only (pre-war Polish territory), according to official data.

To this add also repatriation by trucks in 1944-1949 = 22,815 (no breakdown for republics available). Total - 1,529,498.

http://s11.postimg.org/3mixcwac3/First_Repatriation.png

But repatriation was not the only source of emigration to Poland from those areas.

Apart from repatriation in period 1939/1943 - 1946 came over 550,000 more people (because according to census on 01.01.1947 there were 2,050,000 Polish people in Poland who in 1939 lived east of the Curzon Line). That included refugees, demobilized soldiers, people from Kresy who during WW2 were deported by Germans to forced labour or centration camps and later came to Poland, not to their former homes in Kresy.

==========================================

Now Second Repatriation (1955 - 1959) from the USSR to Poland:

1955 - 6,429
1956 - 30,787
1957 - 93,872
1958 - 85,865
1959 - 32,292

Total 1955-1959 = 245,501. This number included:

From Lithuania - 46,552
From Western Belarus - 100,630
From Western Ukraine - 76,059
From other parts of the USSR (including Eastern Ukraine & Eastern Belarus) - 22,260

==========================================

So in total during 1st and 2nd repatriations came at least 374,793 Poles from Western Belarus (not including repatriated from Eastern Belarus). And apart from repatriations there were also other ways of emigration, including indirect ones (for example Belarus->Germany->Poland).

So the estimation that the total number was 470,000 is very much OK, probable.

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 10:36 AM

Carpatho-Rusyns (Ruthenians) were another culture, not Ukrainians. Today due to Ukrainization in the north they live mostly south of the Carpathians, but before WW2 they lived north of the Carpathians - in Poland - as well. If you check the Polish census of 1931 you can see that there were Ukrainians and a separate group - Ruthenians. There were also Belarusians and Poleshuks. According to Ukrainian nationalists Poleshuks were Ukrainians, according to Belarusian nationalists they were Belarusians, while in reality they were intermediate between Belarusians-Ukrainians-Poles.

Rusyns are not the only people living in western Ukraine. The majority of Rusyns live in Transcarpathian oblast (Uzhorod is the capital). Transcarpathian region was part of Czechoslovakia during inter-war period. Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Vholyn, Ternopil and Rivne oblast' were under Polish rule. In the latter regions Rusyns were a minority. Polish census was a suspect for political reasons during occupation. As I stated earlier, there were different self-identifications of people in various ethnographic regions over the years, but cultural and linguistic ties can be traced back to the 11th century.

But those republics did not have international recognition yet at that time.

I can also gather my friends and declare creation of a new republic like that!

Not many countries around the world recognised soviet state in early 20s. The republics existed within the state. That's a historic fact.

No - it was the 1897 census which was falsified. Lithuanian delegation deluded itself and had fantasy dreams.

It's your delusions and fantasy dreams.

The 1909 census was in agreement with 1916, 1917, 1931 and even 1959 censuses. So you have 4 censuses versus 1 census and you still support this 1 - and who has an agenda?!BTW - 1897 was, if I remember correctly, not the first census in the Vilno Region. Earlier censuses - just like later ones (of 1909, 1916, 1917, 1931 and even 1959) confirmed that the region was more Polish-inhabited than according to 1897 census.

For God's sake even modern censuses confirm that we are still majority in the Vilno Region, except for the city itself which was de-polonized after WW2. You are denying obvious facts. Even after post-war repatriations Poles are still majority here!

Beside the fact census of 1926 indicates 2% of ethnic Poles lived in Belarus, I doubt your ability to make any sense of statistical data and how data on self-identification were collected during turbulent times. I am not sure about circumstances in Lithuania, but majority of Poles living in Belarus don't speak Polish today. Their native language is Belarusian. And it has always been Belarusian for most of them. It maybe because their ancestors identified themselves as Poles for political reasons during Polish occupation when Armija Krajowa was killing Belarusians in western Belarus. Some may have identified themselves as Poles recently to obtain “Polish Card', so it's easier to obtain visa to go shopping in eastern Poland.

It was only accepted by historians and politicians of nations which have an anti-Polish agenda!

It has been accepted because it was more accurate in comparison to other censuses.

As Glasses wrote above, that census counted language - not ethnic composition.

Today there are many people in Belarus who speak Belarusian but identify as Poles - check this.

Hence, census of 1897 was more accurate as many people didn't know how to identify themselves correctly despite culturally and linguistically being Belarusian. For your information the term 'Belarusian was widely applied to people of Vitebsk, Mogilev and western district of Smolensk region. Later, it was applied to people of all Belarus. Belarusians around Vilnius and Hrodna identified themselves as Litsvins (not to be confused with Lithuanians). Lithuanians in Belarusian are 'Litoucy'. I explained the reasons already:

1) Their Catholic Belarusian ancestors identified themselves for political reasons during Polish occupation.
2) Difficulty with self identification despite being culturally and linguistically Belarusian
3) Some want to get a "card of a Pole" for travelling because of visa regulations between Poland and Belarus

So yes, linguistic data provides useful information on ethnic composition.

I did take it - thanks!

Mkay. ;)

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 10:53 AM

Reading all the arguments and information provided in the discussion, the linguistic map from Lithuanian book seems to be correct after all.

The beginning of the 20th century . Lithuanian book - Lietuvos rytai, Vilnius 1993 .

http://s28.postimg.org/lx62vwg9p/bl_map.jpg
http://s28.postimg.org/ndhle1j6l/bl_map2.gif

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 11:16 AM

Apart from repatriation in period 1939/1943 - 1946 came over 550,000 more people (because according to census on 01.01.1947 there were 2,050,000 Polish people in Poland who in 1939 lived east of the Curzon Line). That included refugees, demobilized soldiers, people from Kresy who during WW2 were deported by Germans to forced labour or centration camps and later came to Poland, not to their former homes in Kresy.

Belarus was under Soviet rule in 1947 and there was no census in 1947 in Belarus. Poles were counting too many Poles for political reasons. Polish censuses during inter-war period (1921-1939) are a suspect. In addition, Bialystok (modern-day eastern Poland) and the surrounding areas were part of the Belarusian SSR between 1939-1944. Poles may had been counted in Bialystok as Poles living in Belarus.

More accurate figures are from census 1897 and 1926 (for eastern & central Belarus). And all other censuses for Belarus beginning from 1959. There is another piece of useful information. It's a well known fact that most Poles and Jews lived in major centre and cities, while majority of rural population was Belarusian.

For Belarusian territories
1897 – 86.5% of rural population
1926 – 83% of rural population
1950 – 79% of rural population.

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 11:26 AM

I want to hear how that "Belarusian" sounds. :) IMO it was just a local dialect of Polish.

Literary Belarusian is largely based on dialects spoken between Vilnius and Minsk. Belarusian around Vilnius doesn't sound much different from literary Belarusian. It's Polish dialect from Vilnius that is made fun of by some Poles of Poland. If Polish dialect from Vilnius is very different from Polish of Poland, then it maybe consisting of many Belarusian words and sounds.

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 11:41 AM

Poetry by Maksim Bahdanovič. See how much you can understand

Pahonia - Maksim Bahdanovič (1916)

Toĺki ŭ sercy tryvožnym pačuju
Za krainu radzimuju žach -
Ŭspomniu Vostruju Bramu śviatuju
I vajakaŭ na hroznych kaniach.

Ŭ bielaj pienie pranosiacca koni,
Rvucca, mknucca i ciažka chrypiać...
Staradaŭniaj Litoŭskaj Pahoni
Nie raźbić, nie spynić, nie strymać.

U biaźmiernuju daĺ vy liacicie,
A za vami, prad vami - hady.
Vy za kim u pahoniu śpiašycie?
Dzie šliachi vašy jduć i kudy?

Mo jany, Bielaruś, paniaślisia
Za tvaimi dziaćmi ŭzdahon,
Što zabyli ciabie, adraklisia,
Pradali i addali ŭ palon?

Bicie ŭ sercy ich - bicie miačami,
Nie davajcie čužyncami być!
Chaj pačujuć, jak serca načami
Ab radzimaj staroncy balić...

Maci rodnaja, Maci-Kraina!
Nia ŭścišycca hetaki boĺ...
Ty prabač, Ty prymi svajho syna,
Za Ciabie jamu ŭmierci dazvoĺ!..

Ŭsio liatuć i liatuć tyja koni,
Srebnaj zbrujaj dalioka hrymiać...
Staradaŭniaj Litoŭskaj Pahoni
Nie raźbić, nie spynić, nie strymać.

==========

In Cyrillic

Пагоня - Максiм Багдановiч (1916)

Толькi ў сэрцы трывожным пачую
За краiну радзiмую жах -
Ўспомню Вострую Браму сьвятую
I ваякаў на грозных канях.

Ў белай пене праносяцца конi,
Рвуцца, мкнуцца i цяжка хрыпяць...
Старадаўняй Лiтоўскай Пагонi
Не разьбiць, не спынiць, не стрымаць.

У бязьмерную даль вы ляцiце,
А за вамi, прад вамi - гады.
Вы за кiм у пагоню сьпяшыце?
Дзе шляхi вашы йдуць i куды?

Мо яны, Беларусь, панясьлiся
За тваiмi дзяцьмi ўздагон,
Што забылi цябе, адраклiся,
Прадалi i аддалi ў палон?

Бiце ў сэрцы iх - бiце мячамi,
Не давайце чужынцамi быць!
Хай пачуюць, як сэрца начамi
Аб радзiмай старонцы балiць...

Мацi родная, Мацi-Краiна!
Ня ўсьцiшыцца гэтакi боль...
Ты прабач, Ты прымi свайго сына,
За Цябе яму ўмерцi дазволь!..

Ўсё лятуць i лятуць тыя конi,
Срэбнай збруяй далёка грымяць...
Старадаўняй Лiтоўскай Пагонi
Не разьбiць, не спынiць, не стрымаць.

Peterski

10-28-2014, 05:00 PM

census of 1926 indicates 2% of ethnic Poles lived in Belarus

That census included only eastern half of Belarus (Belarusian SSR), because it was a Soviet census, of course.

Poland held its censuses in 1921 and 1931, not in 1926.

I don't dispute the 1926 census. ;) But that 2% was still a lot - around 100 thousand people (97,500 officially):

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/liczebnosc-polakow-na-kresach-ogolem/

http://konsnard.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ludnosc-polska-kresy_min.png

I am not sure about circumstances in Lithuania, but majority of Poles living in Belarus don't speak Polish today. Their native language is Belarusian. And it has always been Belarusian for most of them.

Not always, but since WW2 - because Polish language was banned in Belarusian schools.

Here in Lithuania it was different, during Soviet times Polish language was not banned.

In the 1960s there were well over 300 schools with Polish language in Lithuanian SSR, compared to 3 Polish schools in Ukraine and 0 in Belarus. Most of Poles in Belarus speak Belarusian today because of Belarusianization and lack of schools teaching children in Polish language.

Soviets had the following ethnic priorities: East Slavs > West Slavs > Balts. This is why in Baltic Lithuania Polish minority was not being denationalized so much in Soviet times, but in East Slavic Belarus and Ukraine they were. In Belarus there was strong Sovietization at that time.

Belarusians around Vilnius and Hrodna identified themselves as Litsvins (not to be confused with Lithuanians).

Poles in these regions too (see my nick!).

the linguistic map from Lithuanian book seems to be correct after all.

This map is as correct as FYROM-ian claims that they are descendants* of Alexander the Great !!! :)

*Alexander the Great had no grandchildren, so nobody is his descendant.

And I don't care that the guy who created this map is a professor. FYROM also has universities and it also has professors - yet we can see how they write the history of Macedonia. The author of this map you posted is similar to historians of FYROM in this respect.

I actually supports the rights of Macedonians to use the name Macedonia (this name does not belong exclusively for Greek-speakers). They are also correct that they had been large part of population in Aegean Macedonia before Greeks deported them after 1913.

But they shouldn't claim that ancient Macedonians were Slavic-speaking, and such.

=====================================

Macedonian Slavs near Salonica in 1910s (they were majority in large parts of Aegean region, up to the Gulf of Salonica):

http://s27.postimg.org/g8xanw40j/Salonika_Slavs.png

Belarus was under Soviet rule in 1947 and there was no census in 1947 in Belarus.

I was talking about census in Poland on 01.01.1947, in which each family was examined where they lived before WW2. So there is exact data on how many people who lived in Poland on 01.01.1947 came from areas east of the Curzon Line. 1950 census also examined this.

Poles were counting too many Poles for political reasons.

Poles were counting slightly too many Poles (but only slightly!) - while Russians were counting FAR too few Poles, also for political reasons. The census of 1897 was much more falsified than the census of 1931. German "neutral" censuses of 1916-1917 are more similar to 1931 census than to 1897.

There was no point for the Germans to falsify censuses in favour of Poles. Germans were as much anti-Polish as they were anti-Russian.

But data on religions is accurate - both in 1897 census and 1931 census.

This is why I will soon quote data on religions because you have just "shot your own leg" in this discussion (read below).

Literary Belarusian is largely based on dialects spoken between Vilnius and Minsk.

Did I ever claim that no Belarusians lived between Minsk and Vilnius? But they weren't 99% of inhabitants as you claim. :)

I just claimed that they lived intermingled with Poles - especially when you get closer to Vilnius, where Poles were majority.

It's a well known fact that most Poles and Jews lived in major centre and cities, while majority of rural population was Belarusian.

In some regions majority of rural population was Polish. In some other regions many Belarusians lived in cities.

Poetry by Maksim Bahdanovič. See how much you can understand

Pahonia - Maksim Bahdanovič (1916)

Toĺki ŭ sercy tryvožnym pačuju
Za krainu radzimuju žach -
Ŭspomniu Vostruju Bramu śviatuju
I vajakaŭ na hroznych kaniach.

Ŭ bielaj pienie pranosiacca koni,
Rvucca, mknucca i ciažka chrypiać...
Staradaŭniaj Litoŭskaj Pahoni
Nie raźbić, nie spynić, nie strymać.

U biaźmiernuju daĺ vy liacicie,
A za vami, prad vami - hady.
Vy za kim u pahoniu śpiašycie?
Dzie šliachi vašy jduć i kudy?

Mo jany, Bielaruś, paniaślisia
Za tvaimi dziaćmi ŭzdahon,
Što zabyli ciabie, adraklisia,
Pradali i addali ŭ palon?

Bicie ŭ sercy ich - bicie miačami,
Nie davajcie čužyncami być!
Chaj pačujuć, jak serca načami
Ab radzimaj staroncy balić...

Maci rodnaja, Maci-Kraina!
Nia ŭścišycca hetaki boĺ...
Ty prabač, Ty prymi svajho syna,
Za Ciabie jamu ŭmierci dazvoĺ!..

Ŭsio liatuć i liatuć tyja koni,
Srebnaj zbrujaj dalioka hrymiać...
Staradaŭniaj Litoŭskaj Pahoni
Nie raźbić, nie spynić, nie strymać.

I can understand almost everything. And I know this poem, by the way. Very beautiful poem. There is also a song: ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2oQhTDuRHQ

And now coming back to the point where you have "shot your own leg" in this discussion. :)

In post #111 on page 12 you claimed that by 1930s almost all Belarusians were converted to Orthodoxy. So any remaining Roman Catholics in Belarus in 1930s were not Belarusians (because as you wrote, by 1930s Belarusians who had previously been Catholics, converted to Orthodoxy).

Now let's post here data on the number of Roman Catholics in Western Belarus in 1931 (from census):

http://s21.postimg.org/mmctld0d3/Religions_Kresy_1.png

"Other Christian" includes Old Believers (they were such "Orthodox Protestants"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

Peterski

10-28-2014, 05:38 PM

Belarus lost 25% of population in WWII. Most casualties were among Jews probably.

Yes, Belarus suffered higher losses in WW2 than any other region. Not only Jews but also other local ethnic groups, Belarusians, Poles, etc.

Rugevit

10-28-2014, 08:36 PM

That census included only eastern half of Belarus (Belarusian SSR), because it was a Soviet census, of course.

Poland held its censuses in 1921 and 1931, not in 1926.

I don't dispute the 1926 census.But that 2% was still a lot - around 100 thousand people (97,500 officially):

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/0...resach-ogolem/

Poland had a political agenda of creating a greater Poland in the 20s-30s. For this reason, Polish government was counting too many Poles in western Belarus. As I said Polish censuses during turbulent political times are a suspect and you are wasting your time presenting figures from Polish sources dated to 1921-1939.

Not always, but since WW2 - because Polish language was banned in Belarusian schools.

Here in Lithuania it was different, during Soviet times Polish language was not banned.

In the 1960s there were well over 300 schools with Polish language in Lithuanian SSR, compared to 3 Polish schools in Ukraine and 0 in Belarus. Most of Poles in Belarus speak Belarusian today because of Belarusianization and lack of schools teaching children in Polish language.

Soviets had the following ethnic priorities: East Slavs > West Slavs > Balts. This is why in Baltic Lithuania Polish minority was not being denationalized so much in Soviet times, but in East Slavic Belarus and Ukraine they were. In Belarus there was strong Sovietization at that time.

Most people from rural areas had no education prior to 1920s but they kept their native language. So, banning of Polish schools in Belarus is not a strong argument. I'd say too many Poles living in Belarus (Poles who were linguistically and culturally Polish) is a myth created by Polish government pursuing the creation of a mono-ethnic Polish state. This is one of the reasons why Polish government failed to create greater Poland. Poland would had more success if it decided to be a federation offering other ethnicities autonomies.

There was no belarusianisation during Soviet era. In soviet union, people of Belarus were russified. Catholic Belarusians kept Belarusian language longer than Orthodox Belarusians. To this date services in Catholic churches are conducted in Belarusian more frequently than in Orthodox churches. It seem Catholic religion has helped people to keep the language and culture. The same way Orthodoxy has helped Orthodox Belarusians to preserve Belarusian language and culture in Bialystok, where the majority are Polish speaking Catholic.

Poles in these regions too (see my nick!).

The term Litsvin had different meanings:

Poly-ethnonym such as British;
Ethnonym such as English.

All citizens of Litva were Litviny but not all citizens of Litva were ethnic Litviny. Western Belarusians (those who lived further west of Biarezina river) considered themselves as ethnic Litviny for quite some time. Poles living in Litva were ethnic Poles, while the term "Litviny" was applied to ethnic Poles as a poly-ethnonym such as British to any citizen of UK. In addition, western Belarusians didn't call their language Belarusian. Their naitive language was known to them as "prostaja mova". There was a problem with self-identification for many people who were culturally and linguistically Belarusian. For this reason, it maybe more accurate to identify people in some regions by the language the spoke natively.

This map is as correct as FYROM-ian claims that they are descendants* of Alexander the Great !!!

You lost the plot , pal.

Why would Lithuanian linguists put Belarusian language on historic Baltic territories? The answer is simple - because Belarusian language was widely spoken in the area at the time. It's also a known fact linguistic border between Slavs and Balts on Belarusian-Lithuanian frontier moved a few times.

Poles were counting slightly too many Poles (but only slightly!) - while Russians were counting FAR too few Poles, also for political reasons. The census of 1897 was much more falsified than the census of 1931. German "neutral" censuses of 1916-1917 are more similar to 1931 census than to 1897.

Poles were counting too many Poles pursuing a political agenda of creating greater Poland, while Russians didn't count too many Belarusians. Also, Lithuania delegation questioned the accuracy of census of 1909. That makes Russians and Lithuanians counting too many Belarusians and few Poles in Vilna governate? I am inclined to believe Russians and Lithuanians. If I wanted to know about demographic situation around Krakow, then I will consult Polish sources. For Vilna governate and Belarus it would be local sources.

Did I ever claim that no Belarusians lived between Minsk and Vilnius? But they weren't 99% of inhabitants as you claim.

I just claimed that they lived intermingled with Poles - especially when you get closer to Vilnius, where Poles were majority.

There was no 99% Belarusians living in Vilna governate. Census of 1897 is showing 56% of Belarusians living in Vilna governate . Vilnia governate! Not Vilnius city. Stick that to you memory.

In some regions majority of rural population was Polish. In some other regions many Belarusians lived in cities.

Poles and Jews lived in the cities. Belarusians and Lithuanians lived in rural area mostly.

I can understand almost everything.

Just because you can understand it doesn't mean the language is similar enough to Polish that every second Pole will have no problem understanding it.

And now coming back to the point where you have "shot your own leg" in this discussion.

In post #111 on page 12 you claimed that by 1930s almost all Belarusians were converted to Orthodoxy. So any remaining Roman Catholics in Belarus in 1930s were not Belarusians (because as you wrote, by 1930s Belarusians who had previously been Catholics, converted to Orthodoxy).

Now let's post here data on the number of Roman Catholics in Western Belarus in 1931 (from census):

I don't have figures off hand. As far as I can remember there were no more than 20% of Orthodox Belarusians prior 1863. So, most Belarusians were converted to Orthodoxy but not all them. Besides, western Belarus was occupied by Poland since 1921. Arguing that Catholic were Poles is so far-fetched and ridiculous for any Belarusian, because Belarusians know there were Catholic Belarusian in the past and there are still many Belarusian Catholic now. This fact about Belarusian Catholic and Belarusian Orthodox is even reflected in classical Belarusian literature

Yes, I am only shooting myself in the leg in your ill-informed mind.

Peterski

10-28-2014, 09:29 PM

Census of 1897 is showing 56% of Belarusians living in Vilna governate.

Census of 1897 is showing - as you say - 56% (891,800) Belarusians in Vilna Gov.

But census of 1909 is showing fewer - 43,1% (756,600) Belarusians in Vilna Gov.

Number of Poles in 1897 census was 129,700 and in 1909 census much bigger - 312,500.

Later I will give you data from German censuses of 1916 and 1917 - Ok? I just need to find it.

================================================== ===

And here data on Catholics & Poles in Grodno Oblast after WW2 (according to official censuses of Belarus):

http://s28.postimg.org/70g9b0exp/Poles_and_Catholics_Grodno_Ob.png

Source: Mariusz Kowalski, "Wileńszczyzna jako problem geopolityczny w XX wieku", Warszawa 2008.

As you can see in some regions there are many Belarusian Catholics (Oszmiana for example). But in some other regions (Grodno and Lida for example) number of Poles is bigger than number of Catholics, which means that many Orthodox and other people also identify as Poles.

=================================

And a map which shows which areas still have a Polish majority today, and which had in the past:

http://s15.postimg.org/nhlnazeij/Shrinking_Poles.png

Source: Mariusz Kowalski, "Wileńszczyzna jako problem geopolityczny w XX wieku", Warszawa 2008.

Area with Polish majority in Lithuania today (A):

http://s28.postimg.org/wm0sn4vj1/Polish_majority.png

Even today in Wilenszczyzna region (below) Belarusians are just 37,8% of population. Poles in this territory are now still over 1/4 of population, despite the fact that ca. 50% of all Poles from this area emigrated to Poland in 1944-1959 (and many more did later):

http://s27.postimg.org/3o1a5pvnn/Vilna_Gov_Today.png

Peterski

10-28-2014, 10:30 PM

Their naitive language was known to them as "prostaja mova"

"Prostaja mova" was not "pure" Belarusian, but mixed Polish-Belarusian & Belarusian-Polish dialects. And most of those people identified as Poles (because they were different by language from Lithuanians and different by religion from East Slavs). There are similar mixed Polish-Czech & Czech-Polish dialects, for example in Hlucinsko region (known as Lachian dialects - from Lachs, Poles). Old Slavia was a language continuum, not just between West-West and East-East but even between East Slavic and West Slavic languages there were often mixed-dialects.

A modern example is Surzhyk (which is mixed Ukrainian-Russian), popular in eastern Ukraine.

It was also very hard in the past to find an exact boundary between Ukrainian-speakers and Belarusian-speakers. Everyone knew that Belarusians were north of Pripet Marshes and Ukrainians south of Pripet Marshes, but nobody knew where was the exact boundary. Poleshuks were claimed by both Belarus and Ukraine, but they spoke "tutejsza mova" ("local tongue"), which were also such mixed-dialects.

Poleshuks in western region near the River Bug were also a bit similar to Poles, it was a continuum.

Ethnicity is not a 0-1 thing despite the fact that most people imagine it to be so simple. In reality it is more complex and multi-layered.

For example you can have people who identify as both Poles and Belarusians. I don't see a reason why there can't be such people.

It makes drawing borders complicated, I know. But it's true.

Most political leaders prefer to just take a pencil and a ruler and draw a simple border, without thinking much. :p

As far as I can remember there were no more than 20% of Orthodox Belarusians prior 1863.

But most of the remaining 80% were Uniates (Oriental / Greek Catholics) or Old Believers. Only a minority could be Roman Catholics.

Poles and Jews lived in the cities. Belarusians and Lithuanians lived in rural area mostly.

This is "stereotypical" but simplistic and not really true.

Many Jews lived in rural areas too - as far as I can remember about 1/3 or more of all Jews were rural (and ca. 2/3 were urban).

Poles lived in rural areas too, and not just in manors (as nobility), but also in villages.

Finally, some Belarusians and Lithuanians also lived in cities.

It's also a known fact linguistic border between Slavs and Balts on Belarusian-Lithuanian frontier moved a few times.

Yeah - and so did linguistic border between Poles and East Slavs + Balts in this area. :p

Poland would had more success if it decided to be a federation offering other ethnicities autonomies.

I 100% agree with you here (for the first time? :p). But that was the original concept of Pilsudski - a federation.

Only later the concept failed to turn into reality, unfortunately. It was a Polish mistake.

because Belarusians know there were Catholic Belarusian in the past and there are still many Belarusian Catholic now.

Yes - in some regions there have been many Catholic Belarusians. But in other regions Catholics have identified as Poles.

In the early 20th century for example many Belarusian Roman Catholics lived in Vileyka and Dzisna regions.

Peterski

10-28-2014, 11:43 PM

One of very numerous examples proving that the 1897 census was manipulated:

In 1906 Poles in Sokolka county (uyezd) of Grodno Governorate sent a petition to Russian authorities to introduce Polish language in schools for their children, because Polish was their mother tongue. Petition was signed by over 15,000 adults, inhabitants of this county. By comparison the census of 1897 counted only 1,273 Poles in this county - including children. Clear falsification.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 03:47 AM

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 04:03 AM

But census of 1909 is showing fewer - 43,1% (756,600) Belarusians in Vilna Gov.Number of Poles in 1897 census was 129,700 and in 1909 census much bigger - 312,500.

I've been through this with you already. Lithuanian delegation questioned the accuracy of census 1909 suggesting there were no more than 20% of Poles living in Vilna Governate.

And here data on Catholics & Poles in Grodno Oblast after WW2 (according to official censuses of Belarus):As you can see in some regions there are many Belarusian Catholics (Oszmiana for example). But in some other regions (Grodno and Lida for example) number of Poles is bigger than number of Catholics, which means that many Orthodox and other people also identify as Poles.

I've been through this with you already. Those identifying as Poles in Belarus were linguistically and culturally Belarusian. I explained the reasons why people could identify themselves as Poles. There was no belarusianisation after WWII. There was russification of Belarus, however.

Even today in Wilenszczyzna region (below) Belarusians are just 37,8% of population. Poles in this territory are now still over 1/4 of population, despite the fact that ca. 50% of all Poles from this area emigrated to Poland in 1944-1959 (and many more did later)

Belarusians were moved from Bialystok to Belarus, while Poles from Belarus were moved to Poland and Lithuania. Yes, in Lithuania too. I don't have a desire and time to search if Belarusians were moved from Lithuania to Belarus to replace lost population during WWII. There was a lot of movement of people in eastern Europe after WWII.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 05:14 AM

"Prostaja mova" was not "pure" Belarusian, but mixed Polish-Belarusian & Belarusian-Polish dialects. And most of those people identified as Poles (because they were different by language from Lithuanians and different by religion from East Slavs). There are similar mixed Polish-Czech & Czech-Polish dialects, for example in Hlucinsko region (known as Lachian dialects - from Lachs, Poles). Old Slavia was a language continuum, not just between West-West and East-East but even between East Slavic and West Slavic languages there were often mixed-dialects.A modern example is Surzhyk (which is mixed Ukrainian-Russian), popular in eastern Ukraine.

Prostaja mova was Belarusian language. There are scholarly articles on the subject . Some Polish loanwords didn't make 'prostaja mova' to be a dialect of Polish. Dictionary entry on Prostaja Mova : http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/1108482

This is an example of Prostaja mova, which is clearly Belarusian language.

"Па-просту гаворыць! Слухайце, слухайце, па-просту, па-нашаму гаворыць!" […] Усе, хто стаяў на вуліцы, пачуўшы, што гавораць вершы на простай, тутэйшай мове, рынуліся ў залу і так стоўпіліся, што бліжэйшым прышлося стрымліваць напор. Аднекуль з'явіўся стол, мяне паставілі на яго і сказалі: «Гавары зноў!» (Паўлина Мядзёлка Сцежкамі жыцця. Успаміны). „Другія не гавораць праз цемнату сваю, бо паверылі нашым ворагам. што мова нашая «брыдкая», «простая» …“(В Ластоўскі Што трэба ведаць кажнаму беларусу). „Бачачы, што яны сапраўдныя беларусы, папрасіў, каб размаўлялі «па просту» — па-беларуску. Людзі зрабіліся як не свае, твары іх засвяціліся. Аказаліся разгаворлівымі, смелымі, вясёлымі. Выслухаў іх беды і праблемы. Даведаўся, што ксёндз Бобіч навучае іх катэхізму па-беларуску, а казанне кажа адно польскае, а другое беларускае. Запытаўся, як ім лепей, як яны лепш разумеюць. «Зразумела, што па просту».“ (Ю.Матулевіч) „- Я паляк! — крычыць Нупрэйка, -//Ды па-просту гавару.// І аж дымецца ў гару. //— Пра «па-просту» (быў такоўскі). //Гаварыў тут ксёндз Жаброўскі“ (Зянон, Вялікае княства). „Калі паглядзім на ўсю Беларусь, на «беларускія гаворкі», на «простую мову», як кажа большасць аб мове штодзённай камунікацыі, то заўважым, што ўвесь час была мова «сакрум» не беларуская“ (Анна Енгелькінг).

It was also very hard in the past to find an exact boundary between Ukrainian-speakers and Belarusian-speakers. Everyone knew that Belarusians were north of Pripet Marshes and Ukrainians south of Pripet Marshes, but nobody knew where was the exact boundary.Poleshukswere claimed by both Belarus and Ukraine, but they spoke "tutejsza mova" ("local tongue"), which were also such mixed-dialects.

The boundary between Belarusian and Ukrainian langauges is easy to find. There are many linguistic features separating Belarusian and Ukrainian languages. Poleshuks of Polessie spoke a transitional dialect between Belarusian and Ukrainian. The transitional dialect was labelled a micro-language by some linguists. But the dialect is more similar to Ukrainian than Belarusian. Some dialects in Chernihiv in north-eastern Ukraine is more similar to Belarusian than to Ukraine.

Poleshuks in western region near the River Bug were also a bit similar to Poles, it was a continuum.

Poleshuks language on western Bug River was also more similar to Ukrainian than to Belarusian or Polish. This has been proven by linguists already. There was certainly no continuum between Belarusian and Polish in Vilnia Governate except for polonisms in Belarusian language.

Ethnicity is not a 0-1 thing despite the fact that most people imagine it to be so simple. In reality it is more complex and multi-layered.

For example you can have people who identify as both Poles and Belarusians. I don't see a reason why there can't be such people.

It makes drawing borders complicated, I know. But it's true.

Most political leaders prefer to just take a pencil and a ruler and draw a simple border, without thinking much.

Linguistic and ethnographic borders between Poles and eastern Slavs are not complicated. There is a linguistic continuum between Ukrainian and Belarusian and between Belarusian and a dialect of Russian spoken in western Russia near Belarus. But there was no linguistic continuum between Polish and Belarusian or between Polish and Ukrainian. Polish is a western Slavic language, while Belarusian is an eastern Slavic language. Eastern Slavic languages had a different development in the last 1,000 years. Polonisms in Belarusian or Ukrainian languages don't make those languages to be dialects of Polish language. Some Baltic dialects and Lithuania and eastern Latvia also had polonisms. No-one in the right frame of mind will claim continuum between Baltic dialects and Polish because of polonisms.

You either lack much knowledge on eastern Slavic languages and ethnography or you are full of shit as have been throughout this discussion.

This is "stereotypical" but simplistic and not really true.

Many Jews lived in rural areas too - as far as I can remember about 1/3 or more of all Jews were rural (and ca. 2/3 were urban).

Poles lived in rural areas too, and not just in manors (as nobility), but also in villages.

Finally, some Belarusians and Lithuanians also lived in cities.

There were Jews in small towns too. There were Belarusians and Lithuanians in major cities too. I was talking about majorities living in large cities were Jews and Poles. Check out the demography of any large city prior to 1920s.

Yeah - and so did linguistic border between Poles and East Slavs + Balts in this area

Polish language spread to the region late. If I am not mistaken people are considered indigenous to the region if they have lived continuously for 500 years or more in the region. Balts have lived in the region for more than 2,500 years. Eastern Slavs lived in Belarus since 7-8AD. Poles appeared in significant numbers in the region no earlier than 300 years ago.

Yes - in some regions there have been many Catholic Belarusians. But in other regions Catholics have identified as Poles.

In the early 20th century for example many Belarusian Roman Catholics lived in Vileyka and Dzisna regions.

Self-identification for government papers was done for different reasons. One needs to look at culture and language of people.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 08:45 AM

The boundary between Belarusian and Ukrainian langauges is easy to find. There are many linguistic features separating Belarusian and Ukrainian languages. Poleshuks of Polessie spoke a transitional dialect between Belarusian and Ukrainian. The transitional dialect was labelled a micro-language by some linguists. But the dialect is more similar to Ukrainian than Belarusian. Some dialects in Chernihiv in north-eastern Ukraine is more similar to Belarusian than to Ukraine.

The boundary is not easy to find because of these transitional mixed-dialects, that's what I wrote above.

Most of Polesie region is part of Belarus today, even though according to you their dialects were more similar to Ukrainian.

Just because a lot of people learn English in Vilnius does not mean there are many ethnic English people living in Vilnius.

Just because many Poles spoke Belarusian doesn't mean they are Belarusian, if they have a different identity and cilture.

Today most of Irish and Scottish people speak English, but they don't identify as English people and they have their own cultures.

Even if there was no Belarusianization but Russification in Soviet times, then there still was De-Polonization in 1772-1921 and 1939-2014.

I don't have a desire and time to search if Belarusians were moved from Lithuania to Belarus to replace lost population during WWII.

There were almost no (or very few) Belarusians within present borders of Lithuania.

These "Belarusians" were either moved to Poland or stayed here like my family. We are Poles.

This is an example of Prostaja mova, which is clearly Belarusian language.

Only when you write it in Cyrillic. :)

Poles appeared in significant numbers in the region no earlier than 300 years ago.

In significant numbers as settlers already in the 1400s, but as captives already in the 1200s (as prisoners of war from Pagan Lithuanian raids). In the 1200s Pagan Lithuanians raided Mazovia and settled thousands of captured Poles as their subjects in the Vilno Region.

Later on - after Krewo Union - Lithuanians invited Polish settlers to their lands, both to towns and to countryside.

Prostaja mova

Also known as poprostemu.

glass

10-29-2014, 09:02 AM

Just because many Poles spoke Belarusian doesn't mean they are Belarusian, if they have a different identity and cilture.

Dood, this bs. Upper class (poles in this case) rarely speak language of lower class (belarusian peasants in this case). Same way russians in baltics did not speak local subhuman languages when SU was disolved, europeans have not bothered learn native languages of their colonies and so on.

Also all your "sources" from 2000s, most likely fantasies and/or historical revisionism from individuals who has nearly nothing to do with scientific community and history.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 09:56 AM

The boundary isnoteasy to find because of these transitional mixed-dialects, that's what I wrote above.

Most of Polesie region is part of Belarus today, even though according to you their dialects were more similar to Ukrainian.

You wrote nonsense once again. Both political and dialect boundaries are well defined between Ukraine and Belarus.

There is ethnographic region Polessie in Belarus known as Belarusian Polessie (western and eastern). There is ethnographic Polessie in Ukraine known as Ukrainian Polessie. Poleshuks live in Polessie speaking transitional dialects between Ukrainian and Belarus. Poleshuks dialects are considered as a microlanguage by some linguists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Polesian_dialect
Modern political border between Belarus and Ukraine is approximately as it was agreed in Lublin Union. Southern territories and eastern territories of the GDL ( present day Ukraine and parts of eastern Poland) were transferred to Polish Crown.In 1939 Khrushchev wanted to transfer large areas of Brest voblast including Brest itself to Ukraine. Belarusian delegation argued that the region has common history with regions of Belarus since 1319.

Polessian dialect in western Polessie : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Dialects_of_Belarusian_language.png/1280px-Dialects_of_Belarusian_language.png

Just because many Poles spoke Belarusian doesn't mean they are Belarusian, if they have a different identity and culture.

People were ethno-graphically and linguistically Belarusians. Polish identity was put for different reasons during turbulent political times.

Only when you write it in Cyrillic.

The text is not even close to Polish. Here it is in Latin transliteration.

Pa-prostu havoryć! Sluchajcie, sluchajcie, pa-prostu, pa-našamu havoryć!" […] Usie, chto stajaŭ na vulicy, pačuŭšy, što havorać vieršy na prostaj, tutejšaj movie, rynulisia ŭ zalu i tak stoŭpilisia, što bližejšym pryšlosia strymlivać napor. Adniekuĺ zjaviŭsia stol, mianie pastavili na jaho i skazali: «Havary znoŭ!» (Paŭlina Miadziolka Sciežkami žyccia. Uspaminy). „Druhija nie havorać praz ciemnatu svaju, bo pavieryli našym voraham. što mova našaja «brydkaja», «prostaja» …“(V Lastoŭski Što treba viedać kažnamu bielarusu). „Bačačy, što jany sapraŭdnyja bielarusy, paprasiŭ, kab razmaŭliali «pa prostu» — pa-bielarusku. Liudzi zrabilisia jak nie svaje, tvary ich zasviacilisia. Akazalisia razhavorlivymi, smielymi, viasiolymi. Vysluchaŭ ich biedy i prabliemy. Daviedaŭsia, što ksiondz Bobič navučaje ich katechizmu pa-bielarusku, a kazannie kaža adno poĺskaje, a druhoje bielaruskaje. Zapytaŭsia, jak im liepiej, jak jany liepš razumiejuć. «Zrazumiela, što pa prostu».“ (JU.Matulievič) „- JA paliak! — kryčyć Nuprejka, -//Dy pa-prostu havaru.// I až dymiecca ŭ haru. //— Pra «pa-prostu» (byŭ takoŭski). //Havaryŭ tut ksiondz Žabroŭski“ (Zianon, Vialikaje kniastva). „Kali pahliadzim na ŭsiu Bielaruś, na «bielaruskija havorki», na «prostuju movu», jak kaža boĺšasć ab movie štodzionnaj kamunikacyi, to zaŭvažym, što ŭvieś čas byla mova «sakrum» nie bielaruskaja“ (Anna Jenhieĺkinh).

In significant numbers as settlers already in the 1400s, but as captives already in the 1200s (as prisoners of war from Pagan Lithuanian raids). In the 1200s Pagan Lithuanians raided Mazovia and settled thousands of captured Poles as their subjects in the Vilno Region.

I linked you to a scholarly article discussing how Poles appeared in the region. Most were polonised local population of 18th-19th centuries, which is agreed by Polish, Belarusian and Lithuanian historians. There were no significant number of Poles even in the early stages after Lublin union. The article is written by professional historian from Hrodna which you should have no problem understanding it if you can read 'prostaja mova” as you claimed. http://kamunikat.org/7979.html

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 10:06 AM

Dood, this bs. Upper class (poles in this case) rarely speak language of lower class (belarusian peasants in this case). Same way russians in baltics did not speak local subhuman languages when SU was disolved, europeans have not bothered learn native languages of their colonies and so on.

Also all your "sources" from 2000s, most likely fantasies and/or historical revisionism from individuals who has nearly nothing to do with scientific community and history.

It wasn't always between upper class and lower class. Belarusian was considered prestigious among some Lithuanians. Not as prestigious as Polish though. This could be the reason why Slavic-Baltic linguistic border shifted further into historic Baltic territories Religion also played a big role in deciding which language to speak. It wasn't uncommon for Belarusian and Lithuanian families to have some members identifying themselves as Poles, while other members are Lithuanians or Belarusians.

One old guy from Daugavpils was saying he was only Russian in his family. All other relatives were Belarusians, Poles, Latgalians. You may remember during Soviet times it wasn't uncommon to have different ethnicity in passport.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 10:46 AM

Peterski

10-29-2014, 11:55 AM

In Trakai (Troki) County in 1912 there took place a church census recording ethnicity of parishioners in each commune & settlement.

The census was carried out by local parson and representatives of local Lithuanians and Poles, so it is totally objective.

Here are the results of this census (Litwinów = Lithuanians, Polaków = Poles, brak = zero) - areas with Polish majority bolded:

Birsztany (Birstonas) 1281 Litwinów 15 Polaków
Butrymańce (Butrimonys) 1905 Litwinów 356 Polaków
Daugi (Daugai) 5670 Litwinów 132 Polaków
Dorsuniszki (Darsuniskis) 2481 Litwinów brak Polaków
Duśmiany (Dusmenys) 3030 Litwinów 460 Polaków
Giegużyn (Geguzine) 2785 Litwinów 1403 Polaków
Hanuszyszki (Onuskis) 2155 Litwinów 2156 Polaków
Jewje (Vievis) 880 Litwinów 3800 Polaków
Jezno (Jieznas) 3766 Litwinów 1193 Polaków
Kietowiszki (Kietaviskes) 3925 Litwinów 811 Polaków
Kowale (Kalviai) 2561 Litwinów 300 Polaków
Kozakiszki (Kazokieskes) 169 Litwinów 2665 Polaków
Kronie (Kruonis) 2200 Litwinów 252 Polaków
Landwarów (Lentvaris) brak Litwinów 3424 Polaków
Marcinkańce (Marcinkonys) 3020 Litwinów 80 Polaków
Merecz (Merkine) 5130 Litwinów 850 Polaków
Niedzingi (Nedinge) 2510 Litwinów 514 Polaków
Niemonajcie (Nemunaitis) 2850 Litwinów 150 Polaków
Niemoniuny (Nemaniunai) 2645 Litwinów 195 Polaków
Olita (Alytus) 1980 Litwinów 991 Polaków
Olkienniki (Valkininkai) 6387 Litwinów 1707 Polaków
Oława (Alove) 2422 Litwinów 246 Polaków
Orany (Varena) 4715 Litwinów 326 Polaków
Piwoszuny (Pivasiunai) 2095 Litwinów 2687 Polaków
Połuknie (Paluknys) brak Litwinów 1821 Polaków
Przełaje (Perloja) 2200 Litwinów brak Polaków
Punie (Punia) 2966 Litwinów 137 Polaków
Rotnica (Ratnycia) 2235 Litwinów 862 Polaków
Rudniki (Rudninkai) brak Litwinów 2380 Polaków
Rudziszki (Rudiskes) 872 Litwinów 2332 Polaków
Rykonty (Rykantai) brak Litwinów 1775 Polaków
Stokliszki (Stakliskes) 5831 Litwinów 613 Polaków
Sumiliszki (Semeliskes) 2899 Litwinów 3743 Polaków
Troki Nowe (Trakai) brak Litwinów 7300 Polaków
Troki Stare (Senieji Trakai) brak Litwinów 3500 Polaków
Użugośc (Uzuguostis) 2685 Litwinów 849 Polaków
Wysoki Dwór (Aukstadvaris) 547 Litwinów 3738 Polaków
Żośle (Zasliai) 6390 Litwinów 2841 Polaków
Żyżmory (Ziezmariai) 5943 Litwinów 1982 Polaków

Church censuses are very important source of data, which once again prove how falsified was the 1897 census.

But - on the other hand - the 1897 census did not count nationality / ethnicity, but only language.

=============================================

Here is a linguistic map of the Vilnius Region made by late (died in 2004) Lithuanian linguist, professor Valerijus Čekmonas:

It is showing Polish, Lithuanian and "prosta mova" / "po prostu" languages:

http://images44.fotosik.pl/160/f47f29878bc26dc0gen.gif

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=14421

This map is not bad - but he made some mistakes, for example he marked Gelvonai (Giełwany) area as Lithuanian, while in reality Polish.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 12:25 PM

The text is not even close to Polish. Here it is in Latin transliteration.

Pa-prostu havoryć! Sluchajcie, sluchajcie, pa-prostu, pa-našamu havoryć!" […] Usie, chto stajaŭ na vulicy, pačuŭšy, što havorać vieršy na prostaj, tutejšaj movie, rynulisia ŭ zalu i tak stoŭpilisia, što bližejšym pryšlosia strymlivać napor. Adniekuĺ zjaviŭsia stol, mianie pastavili na jaho i skazali: «Havary znoŭ!» (Paŭlina Miadziolka Sciežkami žyccia. Uspaminy). „Druhija nie havorać praz ciemnatu svaju, bo pavieryli našym voraham. što mova našaja «brydkaja», «prostaja» …“(V Lastoŭski Što treba viedać kažnamu bielarusu). „Bačačy, što jany sapraŭdnyja bielarusy, paprasiŭ, kab razmaŭliali «pa prostu» — pa-bielarusku. Liudzi zrabilisia jak nie svaje, tvary ich zasviacilisia. Akazalisia razhavorlivymi, smielymi, viasiolymi. Vysluchaŭ ich biedy i prabliemy. Daviedaŭsia, što ksiondz Bobič navučaje ich katechizmu pa-bielarusku, a kazannie kaža adno poĺskaje, a druhoje bielaruskaje. Zapytaŭsia, jak im liepiej, jak jany liepš razumiejuć. «Zrazumiela, što pa prostu».“ (JU.Matulievič) „- JA paliak! — kryčyć Nuprejka, -//Dy pa-prostu havaru.// I až dymiecca ŭ haru. //— Pra «pa-prostu» (byŭ takoŭski). //Havaryŭ tut ksiondz Žabroŭski“ (Zianon, Vialikaje kniastva). „Kali pahliadzim na ŭsiu Bielaruś, na «bielaruskija havorki», na «prostuju movu», jak kaža boĺšasć ab movie štodzionnaj kamunikacyi, to zaŭvažym, što ŭvieś čas byla mova «sakrum» nie bielaruskaja“ (Anna Jenhieĺkinh).

I understand everything. Close enough to Polish.

Most were polonised local population of 18th-19th centuries, which is agreed by Polish, Belarusian and Lithuanian historians.

As I told you before, once some foreigners became Polonized, they intermarried with other "proper" Poles.

We all have both Polish "proper" and Polonized ancestors. And if we choose Polish identity that's our matter.

When you go even just to year 1600 then you probably had several thousand living ancestors at that time.

Most of German ancestry in regions like Lower Silesia or Pomerania were also from germanized local population.

As for Y-DNA haplogroups (anyway - you get your haplogroup only from one branch of your ancestors, while genes from all of them):

N1c1 is another group which Poles lack in significant numbers unlike Belarusians (10%) or Lithuanians (36.7%).

Around 5,8% of Poles from Poland have N1c1 haplogroup compared to 10,1% of Belarusians in Belarus.

But Poland has 38,5 million inhabitants while Belarus has up to 10 million. Half of the population are men.

So you have over 1,1 million men in Poland with this haplogroup and just up to 0,5 million in Belarus. :p

Peterski

10-29-2014, 01:11 PM

There were no significant number of Poles even in the early stages after Lublin union.

As I wrote even before the Krewo Union there were already significant numbers of Poles in Lithuania.

Between years 1210 and 1324 there were in total 42 Lithuanian invasions (major raids) of Poland.

And just during one of those 42 invasions - in 1277 - they captured 40,000 people (mostly peasants) and settled them in their lands.

Just imagine how many Poles were captured during the remaining 41 invasions. Lithuania was sparsely populated, Lithuanian rulers needed people - that was one of reasons for their raids, they wanted to capture people and settle them in their lands as their subjects.

In 1325 after the marriage between future Polish king Casimir III and Aldona (daughter of Gediminas), hostilities stopped but Lithuanians returned only 24,000 Polish captives. That was just a small percent of them. All others (and their descendants) stayed in Lithuania.

Then after the Union or Krewo there were also significant migrations of Poles to Lithuania during the 1400s. They were connected with establishing new towns and villages (and reorganizing existing ones), to which settlers from more densely populated Poland were invited.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 02:13 PM

I understand everything. Close enough to Polish.

Prosta mova was Belarusian language. It's not some kind of mix between Polish and Belarusian as you hinted earlier. I know it better than you. Even your scan from a book on the previous page is showing it as Belarusian : http://images44.fotosik.pl/160/f47f29878bc26dc0gen.gif

As I told you before, once some foreigners became Polonized, they intermarried with other "proper" Poles.

We all have both Polish "proper" and Polonized ancestors. And if we choose Polish identity that's our matter.

When you go even just to year 1600 then you probably had several thousand living ancestors at that time.

Most of German ancestry in regions like Lower Silesia or Pomerania were also from germanized local population.

As for Y-DNA haplogroups (anyway - you get your haplogroup only from one branch of your ancestors, while genes from all of them):

Around 5,8% of Poles from Poland have N1c1 haplogroup compared to 10,1% of Belarusians in Belarus.

But Poland has 38,5 million inhabitants while Belarus has up to 10 million. Half of the population are men.

So you have over 1,1 million men in Poland with this haplogroup and just up to 0,5 million in Belarus. :p

You are not in a position to comment on history and genetic of the region, as you lack sufficient knowledge on these subjects seeing everything through a prism of a Polish immigrant. I linked you to a scholarly article on history of Poles appearing in the region about 5 times. Belarusian historian from north-western Belarus references Polish, Belarusian and Lithuanian sources . Read it and learn something worthwhile : http://kamunikat.org/7979.html

I've see genetic profiles of Poles from Belarus too. N1c1 is only a marker in Y-chromsome. Polish population has around 3% of N1c1 Other sources show 2.2% of N1c1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations Even absolute numbers of N1c1 is less for Poland if it's 2.2% for the population. Likely, most of males carriers of N1c1 brought it from Belarus and Lithuania after repatriation anyway. Distribution of sub-clades of R1a1 of Poles from Poland is different to those of Belarusians and Lithuanians. I linked you to a study on R1a1 subclades earlier.

On autosomal DNA. Poles are different from Lithuanians and Belarusians too. Poles are more similar to Ukrainians. PCA chart comes from a project of a Polish guy running Eurogenes blog based on samples obtained from scientific studies. There are PCA charts and phylogenetic tree using different samples confirming the same results.

This one is from Eurogoenes (k13)): http://bga101.blogspot.com

http://i.imgur.com/dcp4QqL.png

------------

This is maximum likelihood phylogenetic tree tree based on autosomal DNA data generated using TreeMix software obtained by Dienekes - a Greek guy running Dodecad project (dienekes.blogspot.com).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2rNXUS4U3Uo/T2HuSojd0OI/AAAAAAAAEoA/WYocUsCFjx0/s1600/tree1.png

It appears Poles of Poland are more similar to western Ukrainians and Sorbians of east Germany. Probably to Czechs and Slovaks too.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 02:15 PM

As I wrote even before the Krewo Union there were already significant numbers of Poles in Lithuania.

Between years 1210 and 1324 there were in total 42 Lithuanian invasions (major raids) of Poland.

And just during one of those 42 invasions - in 1277 - they captured 40,000 people (mostly peasants) and settled them in their lands.

Just imagine how many Poles were captured during the remaining 41 invasions. Lithuania was sparsely populated, Lithuanian rulers needed people - that was one of reasons for their raids, they wanted to capture people and settle them in their lands as their subjects.

In 1325 after the marriage between future Polish king Casimir III and Aldona (daughter of Gediminas), hostilities stopped but Lithuanians returned only 24,000 Polish captives. That was just a small percent of them. All others (and their descendants) stayed in Lithuania.

Then after the Union or Krewo there were also significant migrations of Poles to Lithuania during the 1400s. They were connected with establishing new towns and villages (and reorganizing existing ones), to which settlers from more densely populated Poland were invited.

Yes, you have written a lot of bull-shit. There were no Poles in significant numbers prior to 17-18th centuries. Significant numbers is key term in the sentence, genius.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 02:38 PM

Statistics from 2009 census

There were 294,549 Poles living in Belarus in 2009
Of those 294,549 only 15,854 people considered Polish to be their native tongue.
171,287 of 294,549 considered Belarusian to be their native tongue.

Page 23 : http://web.archive.org/web/20100917234113/http://belstat.gov.by/homep/ru/perepic/2009/publications/bul_republic.rar

It should be noted that this is the number of people who considers Polish language to be their native tongue. The number of people who actually speaks it on daily basis is even less.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 03:27 PM

Your talk about genetics is literally USELESS. What you are doing is just a misuse of statistical data on your part.

Germans from various parts of Germany also have different from each other genetic makeup, yet they are all Germans. Same with Poles. You are talking about statistical averages and nothing else. And 5,8% of N1c1 among Poles from Poland is from this Russian study:

http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1304/c6/9b1c4260cc94.jpg

http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1304/c6/9b1c4260cc94.jpg

See - Poland has 5,8% of N1c1 according to this study. And even Eupedia gives 4% of it for Poland - still more than your numbers:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

On autosomal DNA. Poles are different from Lithuanians and Belarusians too. Poles are more similar to Ukrainians.

ON AVERAGE maybe.

But that's because Western Ukraine and Southern Poland have much bigger population density than Belarus-Lithuania and Northern Poland. All you are talking about are statistical averages and in this case you should take into account proportions and densities.

I have seen some data on regional genetics of Poles.

Poles in Mazovia have different proportions of haplogroups than Poles in Lesser Poland, for example.

In Cracow 64% of inhabitants have R1a while in Warsaw only 54,5% and in Wrocław only 48,5%. By comparison in German-speaking Graz (in southern Austria) 42,9% have R1a, in German Rostock (north-eastern Germany) - 31,3% have R1a while in German-speaking Mainz (south-western Germany) only 8,4%. In Freiburg (south-western Germany) 54,9% have R1b while in Berlin 23,3% have R1b and in Graz only 14,3% are R1b.

This data is from: Kalevi Wiik, "Where Did European Men Come From?", Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 4:35-85, 2008.

Despite such enormous genetic differences all these people from opposite corners of Germany identify as Germans.

And Austrians until relatively recently also identified as Germans - only after WW2 they changed their mind! North-Eastern and Eastern Germans have just as much R1a as Czechs (Rostock - 31,3% R1a; Pisek in Czech Republic - 29,2% R1a; Leipzig in eastern Germany - 27,1%).

Austrians from southern & eastern regions of Austria have as much R1a as Moravians & Slovaks (Graz - 42,9% R1a; Brno - 41,3% R1a).

Germans near the border with Netherlands have not much R1a (and it comes from internal migrations between various regions of Germany, including Germans who came from former German territories lost after WW2). Münster in North Rhine-Westphalia - just 7,8% R1a.

There are also tonnes of surnames of Slavic (including Polish) origin in Germany - one of these many Slavic surnames is Janke:

http://s24.postimg.org/8n8j7jcsl/Janke.png

There were no Poles in significant numbers prior to 17-18th centuries.

There were significant numbers of Poles already in the 13th century (see above). Those Poles brought as prisoners in the 1200s were of course later Lithuanized / Belarusianized. But later they were once again Re-Polonized. So what you call here "Polonized Belarusians" are in fact in many cases "Belarusianized and later Re-Polonized Poles" or just "Poles".

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 03:43 PM

Your talk about genetics is literally USELESS.

Germans from various parts of Germany also have different from each other genetic makeup, yet they are all Germans. Same with Poles. You are talking about statistical average and nothing else. And 5,8% of N1c1 among Poles from Poland is from this Russian study, by the way:

See - Poland has 5,8% of N1c1 according to this study. And even Eupedia gives 4% of it for Poland - still more than your numbers:

ON AVERAGE maybe.

But that's because Western Ukraine and Southern Poland have much bigger population density than Belarus-Lithuania and Northern Poland. All you are talking about are statistical averages and in this case you should take into account proportions and densities.

My information on population genetics is only useless in your uninformed mind. I know about human genetics more than you do.

Y chromosome markers are used to study ancient migrations. Many Y-chromosome mutations occurred prior to proto-Slavic or proto-Balto-Slavic communities existence. Y-chromesome markers are also subject to bottle-neck effects.The distribution of sub-clades of R1a1 of Poles is different to that of east Slavs and Balts. You can it on this chart for Poles and eastern Slavs. It comes from Underhill et all (2014) study published in Nature magazine : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg201450a.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IpQjRAY4Sz8/UzN-VYES84I/AAAAAAAAJic/qN7oHY2ElNI/s1600/ejhg201450f4.jpg

----

If Y-chromosomes are used to study ancient migrations, then genome-wide studies based on autosomal DNA data are used to study genetic proximities between modern populations. Autosomal DNA accounts for most genome of a human obtained from 22 chromosomes unlike Y-chrosome or mtDNA markers. Above, I provided a PCA chart and a phylogenetic tree based on autosomal DNA for populations in question.

ON AVERAGE maybe - but that's because Western Ukraine and Southern Poland have much bigger population density than Belarus-Lithuania and Northern Poland. All you are talking about are statistical averages and in this case you should take into account proportions and densities.

If course, I was writing about population averages. Even Ukrainian population is closer to Polish according to the chart above. Isolating certain regions is pointless in comparing populations such as north-eastern Poland when majority of Poles are living in central and probably southern Poland around Krakow.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 03:48 PM

On N1c frequency in Polish population. Eupedia may be getting the figure from samples published on FTDNA and the likes which are often biased. These data come from a study published in Journal of Genetic Genealogy magazine.

Peter Gwozdz. "Y-STR Mountains in Haplospace, Part II: Application to Common Polish Clades." Journal of Genetic Genealogy 5:2 (2009). : http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Gwozdz1.pdf

Vincenza Battaglia, Simona Fornarino, Nadia Al-Zahery, Anna Olivieri, Maria Pala, Natalie M. Myres, Roy J. King, Siiri Rootsi, Damir Marjanovic, Dragan Primorac, Rifat Hadziselimovic, Stojko Vidovic, Katia Drobnic, Naser Durmishi, Antonio Torroni, Augusta Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti, Peter A. Underhill, and Ornella Semino. "Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe." European Journal of Human Genetics 17 (2009): pages 820-830. First published online on December 24, 2008. 99 Polish males participated in this study. Their Y-DNA haplogroups were found in these frequencies:

E1b1b1a2 among 4%
I1* among 4%
J1* among 1%
J2b2 among 1%
N1 among 1%
R1a1* among 56.6%
R1b1b2 among 16.2%

----

N1 in new namenclature is N1c1. So 1% according to a formal study?

Peterski

10-29-2014, 04:06 PM

Check where did he take his sample from.

In some studies these people take samples from just one city and their samples are as "large" as 20-30 people!

Even Ukrainian population is closer to Polish according to the chart above.

The chart I posted does not say anything about "Ukrainian population".

It says about Ukrainian population FROM LVIV. :) Ukrainians from Lviv (!) are genetically close to Poles from Poland.

Ukrainians from Lviv =/= Ukrainians as a whole! Ukrainians from Eastern Ukraine have different proportions of subclades. Ukrainians from western Ukraine were historically mixing with Polish settlers and they are also descendants of Lendians (Lędzianie), who were one of Polish tribes, West Slavs.

That's why Ukrainians from Lviv are genetically similar to West Slavs and have very few subclades typical for East Slavs.

They speak East Slavic language because they were conquered by Kievan Rus, but they are genetically West Slavs !!!

Peterski

10-29-2014, 04:10 PM

If you are breaking nations into haplogroup frequencies then Germany should not be one country but at least 4 different countries... :picard1:

And by the way - according to Dienekes, only Northern Belarus has large % of N1c1 haplogroup (I will quote exact data when I find it).

Southern and Central Belarus have much smaller numbers of N1c1. Your average of 10% is for entire country but it is not equally distributed.

So... we must break Belarus into 2 countries! :D "N1c1 country" in the north and "R1a country" in the south... ;)

==================================================

I will quote exact data when I find it

Edit:

Found it: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/03/origin-of-slavs-in-ukraine.html

The results suggest that the uniqueness of the northern Belarusian population is most likely due to the high incidence of Y chromosomes from the haplogroup N3 (18.9%), which has half the frequency in central and southern Belarus (8.8 and 8.1%, respectively). Therefore, although the early ethnogenesis of the Belarusian nation has customarily been linked to the gradual Slavicisation of the homogeneous Baltic substrate on the territory of present-day Belarus (Sedov 1970), only northern Belarus seems to be a transient area for the Baltic and Slavic settlement.

So, we have:

Northern Belarusians - 18,9% N3
Central Belarusians - 8,8% N3
Southern Belarusians - 8,1% N3

Frequency of this haplogroup is over two times higher in northern Belarus than in the rest of Belarus. :)

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 04:20 PM

Check where did he take his sample from.

In some studies these people take samples from just one city and their samples are as "large" as 20-30 people!

The chart I posted does not say anything about "Ukrainian population".

It says about Ukrainian population FROM LVIV. :) Ukrainians from Lviv (!) are genetically close to Poles from Poland.

Ukrainians from Lviv =/= Ukrainians as a whole! But Ukrainians from Eastern Ukraine have different proportions of subclades.

The chart says Ukrainian, Ukrainian_West and Ukrainian_Northeast. Ukrainian stands for all Ukrainian population : http://i.imgur.com/dcp4QqL.png

Peterski

10-29-2014, 04:23 PM

I was talking about "my" chart, not about "your" chart. It has R1a subclades of Ukrainians from Lviv:

http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1304/c6/9b1c4260cc94.jpg

http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1304/c6/9b1c4260cc94.jpg

Ukrainians from western Ukraine were historically mixing with Polish settlers and they are also descendants of Lendians (Lędzianie), who were one of Polish tribes, West Slavs. They are genetically similar to West Slavs and have very few subclades typical for East Slavs.

Just check their subclades in the chart above.

Ukrainians from Lviv have no R1a Z92 subclade, which is typical for East Slavs (11% - 12% in Russians and Belarusians). Ukrainians from Lviv also have over 9% of R1a L260, which is typical for West Slavs (Poles 17%) and rare in East Slavs (Russians & Belarusians just 3%).

They speak East Slavic language because they were conquered by Kievan Rus, but they are genetically West Slavs.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 04:25 PM

If you are breaking nations into haplogroup frequencies then Germany should not be one country but at least 4 different countries... :picard1:

And by the way - according to Dienekes, only Northern Belarus has large % of N1c1 haplogroup (I will quote exact data when I find it).

Southern and Central Belarus have much smaller numbers of N1c1. Your average of 10% is for entire country but it is not equally distributed.

So... we must break Belarus into 2 countries! :D "N1c1 country" in the north and "R1a country" in the south... ;)

==================================================

Edit:

Found it: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/03/origin-of-slavs-in-ukraine.html

So, we have:

Northern Belarusians - 18,9% N3
Central Belarusians - 8,8% N3
Southern Belarusians - 8,1% N3

Frequency of this haplogroup is over two times higher in northern Belarus than in the rest of Belarus. :)

What's your point? That northern Belarus has a higher frequency of N1c1 than southern Belarus? That has been known all along. Dzukai have lower frequency of N1c1 than other Lithuanians, which is also known. There's a north-south gradient for N1c1 frequency.

Your cousin on maternal side may have a different Y-chromosome haplogroup to that of yours. It does not make your cousin to be genetically much different to you. Genetic proximities between modern day populations are studied using autosomal DNA data. Look at the charts based on autosomal DNA I posted above.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 04:31 PM

Ukrainians from Eastern Galicia are genetically Polish / West Slavic. Yet I am not claiming that they are Poles.

You, on the other hand, are assigning populations to nations basing on their genetics. That's not how it works.

If you claim that Poles in Belarus are Belarusians then at least admit that Ukrainians in Eastern Galicia are Poles.

Above I quoted evidence that Ukrainians from Lviv region are West Slavic genetically (a lot of L260 and no Z92).

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 04:45 PM

Ukrainians from Eastern Galicia are genetically Polish / West Slavic. Yet I am not claiming that they are Poles.

You, on the other hand, are assigning populations to nations basing on their genetics. That's not how it works.

I am not assigning populations to nations based on genetic profiles. You started talking about genetics and I pointed to the fact that Polish population is genetically different to those of Belarusian and Lithuanian. Well, Polish population is no more similar than to Ukrainian population according to the chart above.

If you claim that Poles in Belarus are Belarusians then at least admit that Ukrainians in Eastern Galicia are Poles.

Above I quoted evidence that Ukrainians from Lviv region are West Slavic genetically (a lot of L260 and no Z92).

Yes, I am claiming Poles of Belarus have origins in Belarus for the most part. This has been known to historians before any genetic tests were carried out. Ukrainians from Lviv are not western Slavs genetically. Poles of Galicia on Polish side of the border are western Ukrainians originally.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 04:50 PM

Ukrainians from Lviv are not western Slavs genetically.

They are - they have L260 which is distinctly West Slavic and they have no Z92 which is distinctly East Slavic.

You are full of shit. Full of East Slavic shit.

Poles of Galicia on Polish side of the border are western Ukrainians originally.

No - there was Polish immigration to Eastern Galicia from the 1300s onwards.

Add to this West Slavic Lendians who lived there, but they became Ruthenized after 981. Eastern Galicia was also part of the Polish state since 970 until 981. And later several times it changed ownership (from hands to hands), until in 1340 it became permanently Polish.

Western Galicia was always Polish. Well - it was Polish since 990, before 990 it was Czech-Moravian (they are also West Slavs) and before that independent Vistulan. Vistulans who lived there were also West Slavs - they were one of Lechitic tribes, and Polish tribes.

So you are full of shit. East Slavs have enough land - why do you always want more?

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 05:08 PM

They are - they have L260 which is distinctly West Slavic and they have no Z92 which is distinctly East Slavic.

Haplogroups cannot be east, west or south Slavic. South-eastern Poland had a sizeable population of Lemkos , who are culturally and linguistically similar to western Ukrainians. Vholynians lived in eastern Poland too.
Those people in south-eastern Poland also happen to be genetically similar to western Ukranians.

No - there was Polish immigration to Eastern Galicia from the 1300s onwards.

Add to this West Slavic Lendians who lived there, but they became Ruthenized after 981.

Western Galicia was always Polish. Well - it was Polish since 990, before 990 it was Czech-Moravian (they are also West Slavs) and before that independent Vistulan. Vistulans who lived there were also West Slavs - they were one of Lechitic and Polish tribes.

Vholynians lived in eastern Poland. Lemkos also lived in south-eastern Poland forever. FYI all Slavs came to Poland from western Ukraine originally.

http://www.c-rs.org/crs_map.jpg

So you are full of shit. East Slavs have enough land - why do you always want more?

I don't need anything more. Certainly not in western Ukraine or south-eastern Poland. I have been patient telling you about history and ethnogenesis of Slavic people pointing out to your frequent errors. If you cannot engage in a civil discussion I will start commenting on your intellectual abilities.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 05:19 PM

Vholynians lived in eastern Poland. Lemkos also lived in south-eastern Poland forever.

What a stupid East Slavic propaganda again! Vholynians lived in Volhynia, not in Eastern Galicia.

Lemkos emerged only during the Late Middle Ages up to the 1500s and they were a mix of Vlach and Ruthenian immigrants. They did not live there "forever" but immigrated from the south-eastern direction among the Carpathians. And they are not fully Ruthenian because they have a large Vlach (Vlachs were originally Romance-speaking highland herders) admixture. Vlachs were closer to Romanians than to Ukrainians!

Lemkos are not native to Poland - they were migrating along northern slopes of the Carpathians, from south-east to north-west.

FYI all Slavs came to Poland from western Ukraine originally.

They Slavicized local population.

According to you everyone migrates except for Poles who never migrate and East Slavs who are always native! :picard1:

Now you will start claiming that all Slavs are East Slavs because Slavs originated there!

Yeah, so perhaps all Germanics are Swedes! And all Romance-speakers are Italians, by this logic. :picard1:

Haplogroups cannot be east, west or south Slavic.

L260 subclade of R1a is commonly called "West Slavic branch". That's because it is very frequent only among West Slavs!

Don't pretend to be stupid. Genes also cannot be east, west or south Slavic - or Belarusian for that matter.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 05:28 PM

Those people in south-eastern Poland also happen to be genetically similar to western Ukranians.

Yes, we already know that Poles do not exist. You already wrote this before.

There are no Poles, because 100% of Poles are genetically Non-Polish, according to you.

Thank you for information, Mr East Slavic propagandist. Belarus should annex Poland.

Whoops, but in such case you will be in minority (10 million in a country of 50 million).

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 05:36 PM

What a stupid East Slavic propaganda again! Vholynians lived in Volhynia, not in Eastern Galicia.

Moron! Open up a book and read on settlements of Vholynians. It wasn't long ago I helped a Pole to find a Slavic tribe that lived near Biała Podlaska and further south of Biała Podlaska. Those were Vholynians, who lived on both banks of western Bug. Their another tribal name was Buzhans derived from the name of River Bug near which they lived.

Lemkos emerged only during the Late Middle Ages up to the 1500s and they were a mix of Vlach and Ruthenian immigrants. They did not live there "forever" but immigrated from the south-eastern direction among the Carpathians. And they are not fully Ruthenian because they have a large Vlach (Vlachs were originally Romance-speaking highland herders) admixture. Vlachs were closer to Romanians than to Ukrainians!

So are many Rusyns on Ukrainian side of the border.

They Slavicized local population.

There weren't many people living Poland Hun invasion who cleared areas for Slavs to expand all the way to eastern Germany. Once again open up a decent book and read.

According to you everyone migrates except for Poles who never migrate and East Slavs who are always native! :picard1:

I never claimed eastern Slavs are native everywhere. You've made it up as if it wasn't expected from you. Although, there are good chances Slavs separated from Balts in Belarus moving south in Ukraine, if in fact, there was a proto-Balto-Slavic community in the past. Slavic language may had developed in Ukraine in contacts with Scythians/Sarmatians. Ukraine has plenty of fertile land on which Slavs increased their population. Polessie (swamps and forests) provided a refuge for Slavs from steppe invaders. Later, in alliance with Avars Slavs moved west and south . That's not a fact. That's just a hypothesis on origins of the Slavs, a plausible hypothesis proposed by many scholars.

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 05:39 PM

Yes, we already know that Poles do not exist. You already wrote this before.

There are no Poles, because 100% of Poles are genetically Non-Polish, according to you.

Thank you for information, Mr East Slavic propagandist. Belarus should annex Poland.

Whoops, but in such case you will be in minority (10 million in a country of 50 million).

You're a funny. Calm down. ;)

Peterski

10-29-2014, 05:42 PM

There weren't many people living Poland Hun invasion who cleared areas for Slavs to expand

You have obsolete information. When Poland was building highways for Euro 2012 (Poland-Ukraine), they discovered new archaeological sites and settlements from that period (4th - 6th centuries AD). So there was no total depopulation by Huns. And yes - population density was small, but also the number of migrants coming from the east also could not be very high. So migrants mixed with old population. Anthropological research by scholars of the Poznan University (under prof. J. Piontek) also found similarity between Iron Age and Slavic Age populations of Poland:

Book by prof. J. Piontek in this link:

http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/pdf/mono/vol012/01piontek.pdf

English summary of this book:

http://postimg.org/image/lkqszetlr/

http://s27.postimg.org/axwztzlgj/Summary_Piontek.png

And it doesn't mean that they absorbed Germanics because Germanic tribes liked Goths & Vandals were also immigrants in Poland.

Those who built Biskupin were neither Germanic-speakers nor Slavic-speakers. We can call them "Venedic people" for example.

Areas east of Germania Magna were known as European Sarmatia (Sarmatia Europaea) by ancient geographers & historians. We can call populations which lived there "Sarmatians" - not as an ethnic name, but as a name similar to your English/British example. All people who lived in Sarmatia Europaea were "Sarmatian" just like all people in the British Isles are British, no matter ethnicity (English, Scottish, Welsh, etc.).

Their another tribal name was Buzhans derived from the name of River Bug near which they lived.

1) How do you know that Buzhans = Vholynians?
2) How do you know that Buzhans were East Slavic not West Slavic?

Rugevit

10-29-2014, 05:49 PM

You have obsolete information. When Poland was building highways for Euro 2012 (Poland-Ukraine), they discovered new archaeological sites and settlements from that period (4th - 6th centuries AD). So there was no total depopulation by Huns. And yes - population density was small, but alsothe number of migrants coming from the east also could not be extremely high. So migrants mixed with old population. Anthropological research by scholars of the Poznan University (under prof. J. Piontek) also found similarity between Ancient and Medieval populations:

http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/pdf/mono/vol012/01piontek.pdf

And it doesn't mean that they absorbed Germanics because Germanic tribes were also immigrants in Poland.

Did I write there was a total depopulation after Hun invasion? I wrote: "there weren't many people living" in Poland after Hun invasion.

1) How do you know that Buzhans = Vholynians?
2) How do you know that Buzhans were East Slavic not West Slavic?

It's pretty much accepted in historeography that Buzhans and Vholynians were the same group of people. Buzhans were an eastern Slavic tribe, which is also accepted by historians. Archaeological artefacts of Vholynians were found on both sides of western Bug River.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 06:06 PM

"there weren't many people living"

According to estimations by historian Adam Sengebusch the population of Poland (within modern borders) was:

Late 4th century AD (shortly before the Hunnic invasion) - ca. 600,000 people (2 people per 1 km2)
After the Hunnic invasion and subsequent emigration - between ca. 150,000 and ca. 250,000 people

According to archaeologist-prehistorian K. Godłowski, depopulation caused by the Huns and by emigration to the Roman Empire was 2/3.

So population was reduced to 1/3 of previous level, according to Godłowski. He doesn't say how big it was before depopulation.

Peterski

10-29-2014, 06:13 PM

Buzhans were an eastern Slavic tribe, which is also accepted by historians.

What is the evidence that they spoke an East (not West) Slavic language / dialect? And those Buzhans lived east of the River Bug. Even if they lived also west of the Bug then they were not alone, because there is evidence that Mazovian and Lendian settlements existed in that area.

Sosnowiec-Lodz-Radom

12-23-2014, 09:19 PM

Is it true that lietevus eats polish children? I'm quite serious...

Hercus Monte

12-24-2014, 11:43 PM

Is it true that lietevus eats polish children? I'm quite serious...
yes, deep fried with some garlic sauce. It's a traditional pagan dish.

Sosnowiec-Lodz-Radom

12-24-2014, 11:47 PM

OMG! :( BUT WHY!!!!

Guapo

12-24-2014, 11:49 PM

wtf is a Wilno

Not a Cop

12-24-2014, 11:50 PM

yes, deep fried with some garlic sauce. It's a traditional pagan dish.

I thought you borroved that tradition from Russians during the occupation.

TheForeigner

12-24-2014, 11:52 PM

wtf is a Wilno

Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania and maybe the area around it, in Polish.

Guapo

12-24-2014, 11:53 PM

Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania and maybe the area around it, in Polish.

Oooohhhh

Hercus Monte

12-25-2014, 12:22 AM

I thought you borroved that tradition from Russians during the occupation.
1795 - never forget.

OMG! :( BUT WHY!!!!
Catholics are delicious. you should try it(they taste like Chicken)

Peterski

01-03-2015, 02:15 PM

In a survey from 2003, as many as 82% of Catholics in Belarus declared that they have Polish ancestry, including 66% with fully Polish ancestry and 16% from mixed families. In the westernmost Diocese of Grodno 95% of Catholics declared Polish ancestry, while in the easternmost Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev still as many as 73%.

Source:

http://www.kresy.pl/publicystyka,felietony?zobacz/czy-polacy-przetrwaja-na-bialorusi-#

Osobliwość Kościoła katolickiego na Białorusi
Pomimo ogromnych strat osobowych Kościoła katolickiego na Białorusi w wyniku II wojny światowej oraz zmian w narodowościowym składzie jego wiernych, w dalszym ciągu ich większość stanowią wierni zdecydowanie utożsamiający się z narodowością polską. Przeprowadzone w 2003 r. badania socjologiczne, które objęły 43 parafie, czyli 12 proc. ich ogólnej liczby, a w nich 860 osób w różnym wieku, poczynając od mających 12 lat, wykazały, że 63 proc. katolików na Białorusi uważa się za Polaków. W diecezji grodzieńskiej odsetek ten wynosi 80 proc., w pińskiej - 70 proc., w witebskiej - 57 proc., a w archidiecezji mińsko-mohylewskiej - 35 procent. Aż 82 proc. katolików podało, że ma pochodzenie polskie, w tym 66 proc. pochodzi z rodzin całkowicie polskich, a 16 proc. z mieszanych. Tylko 18 proc. pochodzi z rodzin niepolskich. Największy odsetek katolików polskiego pochodzenia, bo 95 proc., jest w diecezji grodzieńskiej, a najmniejszy w archidiecezji mińsko-mohylewskiej, bo 73 procent.

According to the same survey a much smaller percent of Catholics (even though over 4/5 declare Polish ancestry) still identify themselves as exclusively Poles (rather than Poles-Belarusians or exclusively Belarusians) - 63% in the nationwide scale, while 80% in the Diocese of Grodno, 70% in the Diocese of Pinsk, 57% in the Diocese of Vitebsk and just 35% in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev. So in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev the process of De-Polonization is more advanced than elsewhere.

It seems that this is still more than according to official Belarusian censuses, which most certainly underestimate the size of Polish minority - especially in central and eastern regions of the country. In official censuses only in the Grodno province the number of Poles is indeed equal to 80% of the number of Catholics (according to the census of 1999). However, a lot of these Poles are obviously not Catholics, because in several regions of this province there are more Poles than Catholics.

Source:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=IIDeAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=Goss+2002+Polacy+na+Bia%C5%82orusi&source=bl&ots=gaocIpip4n&sig=wh9KyfYqZC2KIkIIplRC_4gv_b4&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=r_-nVMihM8SAUf2igZgL&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Goss%202002%20Polacy%20na%20Bia%C5%82orusi&f=false

(it also describes census falsifications - for example those which reduced the % of Poles from 65,48% to 9,79% in Ostrowiec Raion from 1959 to 1970):

http://s28.postimg.org/v0l263ux9/Poles_Catholics_Grodno_Oblast.png

After WW2 the goal of new Soviet administration was to destroy the Catholic Church in Western Belarus (this had been done in Eastern Belarus already during the period between 1921 and 1939). Until 1953, as many as 90% of all priests who stayed in Belarus (others were deported to Poland together with their parishioners) were arrested. Over half of them were sentenced to 25 years in labor camps. Out of 387 Catholic churches existing in 1945, only 86 survived until 1986.

============================================

Here about census manipulations in Ukraine:

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/412422.html?print=tak

In this interview Stanisław Kostecki, chairman of the Association of Poles in Ukraine, says that in his own home region - Chemerivtsi Raion - the last Ukrainian official census counted only 9 Poles. While in reality the Polish community in this Raion numbers many thousands and recently they constructed 14 new Polish churches.

Sosnowiec-Lodz-Radom

05-18-2015, 05:59 PM

Lietuvas didn't respect our rights// The Polish National-Territorial Region (Polish: Polski Kraj Narodowo-Terytorialny) was an autonomous region in Lithuania, self-proclaimed by the local Poles on 6 September 1990. The region included areas surrounding Vilnius (Polish: Wilno), capital of Lithuania, where Poles formed the majority (60–90%),[1] This Eastern part of Lithuania had been part of Poland (from 1922) before being attached to Lithuania under the Mutual Assistance Treaty with the Soviet Union in 1939. The autonomy region with capital in Naujoji Vilnia (Polish: Nowa Wilejka) included 4,930 km² and population of 215,000 (66% of them were Poles and 34% in Naujoji Vilnia[2]). The Polish autonomist movement (the leaders of which included Jan Ciechanowicz) was related to the Yedinstvo movement and had tacit support from Moscow (thus, when following the Act of the Re-Establishment of the State of Lithuania the Soviets applied a blockade against Lithuania, the areas of Eastern Lithuania with significant minority population were mostly spared of the blockade, with the aim of gaining minorities' support for Moscow). In the region, the Polish Red-and-White flags were used as official flag and Rota was used as an anthem in the region.

The Lithuanian government declared the formation of the Polish autonomous district in Lithuania unconstitutional. After the August Coup of the Soviet hardliners had failed, the Lithuanian parliament suspended on 3 September 1991 the democratically elected local councils that had sought autonomy or secession from Lithuania.[3]

Source Wikipedia