Dutch soldier killed in Afghan firefight

[The Lawspeaker]

Dutch soldier killed in Afghan firefight (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1499558.php/Dutch-soldier-killed-in-Afghan-firefight)

The Hague - A Dutch soldier was killed in a battle with Taliban insurgents on Sunday in Afghanistan, becoming the 20th Dutch soldier so far to lose his life in the conflict, the Dutch Defence Ministry in The Hague announced.
Since 2006, the Netherlands has deployed around 1400 soldiers to the restive Afghan province of Uruzgan.

The government in The Hague recently declared that it would not renew beyond 2010 its military leadership in Uruzgan within the framework of the NATO-lead International Security Assistance Force.
The United States has requested the Netherlands to reconsider its position.

[Jägerstaffel]

Dutch soldier killed in Afghan firefight (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1499558.php/Dutch-soldier-killed-in-Afghan-firefight)

The Hague - A Dutch soldier was killed in a battle with Taliban insurgents on Sunday in Afghanistan, becoming the 20th Dutch soldier so far to lose his life in the conflict, the Dutch Defence Ministry in The Hague announced.
Since 2006, the Netherlands has deployed around 1400 soldiers to the restive Afghan province of Uruzgan.

The government in The Hague recently declared that it would not renew beyond 2010 its military leadership in Uruzgan within the framework of the NATO-lead International Security Assistance Force.
The United States has requested the Netherlands to reconsider its position.



Hey, don't F me over it buddy. I didn't send ANY troops (Dutch OR American) anywhere.

[The Lawspeaker]

Hey, don't F me over it buddy. I didn't send ANY troops (Dutch OR American) anywhere.
Your elected government has and the problem with governments is that they represent a country. Our country gets fucked over by our "valiant allies" as much as by own government.
We don't need enemies with allies like the U.S bankers, big industrialists and government.

[Jägerstaffel]

Your elected government has.

I didn't elect them and they don't speak for us all.

Point is, don't paint the whole country just because of the foreign policies of the uber-elite politicians and industries that run it.

[RoyBatty]

I used to b i t c h about things like "elected govts" but have now come to the conclusion that it's useless. No matter who we vote for, they're all crooks. Voting changes nothing. The same people keep running things. The public will remain ignorant. Nothing changes.

[Jägerstaffel]

I don't mean to bicker over it. I just saw the original post before you edited it and got heated.

I'm not for this war in the Middle East and I don't think any Westerners (American or European) need to be there. I'm just as eager for this war to end as you and for our own countries to look inward - rather than Eastward - if you get my drift.

[Jägerstaffel]

Personally, I feel that the Middle East can war forever as long as it keeps its wars where they belong - in the Middle East.

I would support an American (or Western if any western nation voluntarily chose to join us. I don't believe my government should use our influence to force other countries to join us) attack on Al-Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden, but I think that the government and communities of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and the subsequent war on the Taliban have nothing to do with us.

[RoyBatty]

Those wars are "for profit" enterprises. The "terrorism" and "Crusade" bs was tacked on in order to sell it to the electorate (we're paying of course) and make the politicians and their backers extremely rich people.

You guys are probably all familiar with Smedley Butler who summed it up in the 1930's.

http://www.infowars.com/smedley-butler-war-is-a-racket/

[Jägerstaffel]

Agreed.

I do not know what the real reason was for all of this nonsense but I highly doubt it was for the reasons that our leaders listed.

[Vargtand]

A worthy death :)

[The Lawspeaker]

A worthy death :)
Worthy but needless. He didn't die in defense of this country but for the big banks who fund this war for control over opium.

[RoyBatty]

Agreed.

I do not know what the real reason was for all of this nonsense but I highly doubt it was for the reasons that our leaders listed.

The real reasons are geopolitical and energy politics. Yes yes I know sheeple will bleat that I'm a conspiracy theorist blah blah.... I've heard it all before. My reply to them is that they're simply ignorant and don't know history. Most (if not all) of the issues today has its origins in past conflicts.

Afghanistan has for centuries been a battleground between the Russian and British Empires. The current Afghan War is partially a continuation of that battle and partially also to gain a foothold and control over Central Asia (minerals, energy supplies) and to gain energy export routes (pipelines). The "Taleban" are forever being portrayed as "terrorists" but I can't think of a single "terror act" they are supposed to have committed in the West. US Companies like Unocal were in pipeline negotiations with them prior to the 2001 invasion. The negotiations failed, probably because the Taleban wanted too much money. Soon thereafter "The War on Terror" started. Some people would argue it was a "coincidense"... I'm not so sure.

Another thing to keep in mind is that NATO moved quickly to destroy the remnants of the former Communist Block after the Soviet Union fell apart. War was stoked up between the different ethnic groups in Yugoslavia and after it degenerated into a stalemate, NATO started bombing Serbia in order to remove resistance to its eastward expansion.

Russia is being encircled with a cluster of NATO bases. Why? Because Russia is an obstacle to the Western based NWO and it has resources which they covet.

Iran is "the bad guy" because it (like Iraq) didn't sign up to Kissinger's petrodollar scam in the 1970's and because it kicked out its US / UK imposed dictator (the former Shah). Since the Iranians aren't quite as corrupt and bought off as most Arabs in the region, Israel whines. When Israel whines, the US and EU take note. After all, both blocks are more or less subservient to Israel.

To cut a long story short, politicians and their wealthy backers are simply doing what they have always done which is playing Empire Building. The method for the 21'st Century is to portray the world as a terrorist infested security risk which must be brought under control so that we can sleep safe in our beds at night.

Because the public are gullible and easily scared, they soon sign over their freedoms and taxes to the gangsters from banking, industry, the media and politics to "protect them" from "terror". The masters of the world gladly then take this opportunity to introduce even more security and tracking (paid for by us, the taxpayers of course) in order to "protect" us even more.

The greatest thing about this scam is that:

- We're the ones signing up to be enslaved and sign over our freedom
- We're the ones paying for it

Anyway, that's where the (Western) world is headed. I can't see anything changing for the better until somebody throws the powerswitch and move us back to the pre-electricity era.

It's ironical how for decades we were fed anti-Soviet / Communism hysteria (after all, no freedom there etc etc) to see that once Communism fell the same thing now being implemented in our previously free countries.

[Sol Invictus]

R.I.P.. :(

[Psychonaut]

Worthy but needless. He didn't die in defense of this country but for the big banks who fund this war for control over opium.

Statements like this belittle the sacrifice that soldiers like this man have made. You can criticize your nation's decision to enter into a war with which you disagree without denigrating one who has died the noblest death of all: a death in combat.

[The Lawspeaker]

Statements like this belittle the sacrifice that soldiers like this man have made. You can criticize your nation's decision to enter into a war with which you disagree without denigrating one who has died the noblest death of all: a death in combat.
No it is the truth. He died abroad fighting for a cause that is not a cause of our people. He was send there to die. That's the plain, harsh truth. There would have been honor in his death (if there can be honor in death) if he died defending our country.

My country is under attack, from within, and he was send abroad to die there while we need our troops at home. There is no honor in his death- it is just another defender that died in vain.
I can't see the honor in it.

[Vargtand]

Worthy but needless. He didn't die in defense of this country but for the big banks who fund this war for control over opium.

Dying in the glory of combat is not needless, to go willing into battle... what can be more fulfilling than that, I've applied but have not been chosen, so I await my turn and in the mean time I practice.

[Jägerstaffel]

To me it's all a personal decision.

I don't understand the hero worship that our culture has for soldiers. They all signed up for this. Dying in a foreign land for no reason is without honour in my opinion.

Dying to protect your country is a different story.

[Psychonaut]

No it is the truth. He died abroad fighting for a cause that is not a cause of our people. He was send there to die. That's the plain, harsh truth. There would have been honor in his death (if there can be honor in death) if he died defending our country.

Well damn, I'm glad I don't fight for the Dutch Army. We give our slain the honor and respect they deserve for the sheer fact that they died in combat not because we happen to agree with the politics of the war. Saying that a soldier wasted his life for dying in battle is disgraceful.

[The Lawspeaker]

Dying in the glory of combat is not needless, to go willing into battle... what can be more fulfilling than that, I've applied but have not been chosen, so I await my turn and in the mean time I practice.
He didn't die defending our country. What is so difficult to understand that there is a difference between dieing in combat and dieing in combat ? Those boys that died along the Grebbe in 1940 died defending our country-- this brave soldier died for the bankers that send him there to die so they could make more money.

http://www.ogs.nl/pix/Grebbeberg%202008%202.jpg
These boys here died in their hundreds defending our country. This is at the Militair Ereveld (lit. Military Field of Honor) near de Grebbeberg.

What happens to soldiers when they die in Iraq (lost 2 there) and Afghanistan (20 now): they get handed over to their respective families for a simple burial (not even on a military graveyard) with, at best, a saluting officer.

http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/dynamic/00107/Een_pandaschedel_e_107354e.jpg
Where do these boys die for huh ?

[Jägerstaffel]

Well damn, I'm glad I don't fight for the Dutch Army. We give our slain the honor and respect they deserve for the sheer fact that they died in combat not because we happen to agree with the politics of the war. Saying that a soldier wasted his life for dying in battle is disgraceful.

I see no fault in pointing out that it was a needless death.

[Sol Invictus]

Dying in the glory of combat is not needless,

I certainly hope that when my time comes, it won't be a death that is in the interest of bankster criminals and robber barons who send off our best and brightest to die while the rest of us buffoons sit around here like a bunch of dumb cattle oblivious to what's going on.

The truth sometimes hurts, and the truth of the matter is, is that he died not in the defense of his home, but for the interests of a minority, criminal element. I can guarentee, unless this fella's last name is a Rockefeller, that this wasn't his intention. You can't deny this man was brave, though.

[Vargtand]

He didn't die defending our country. What is so difficult to understand that there is a difference between dieing in combat and dieing in combat ? Those boys that died along the Grebbe in 1940 died defending our country-- this brave soldier died for the bankers that send him there to die so they could make more money.

http://www.ogs.nl/pix/Grebbeberg%202008%202.jpg
These boys here died in their hundreds defending our country. This is at the Militair Ereveld (lit. Military Field of Honor) near de Grebbeberg.

What happens to soldiers when they die in Iraq (lost 2 there) and Afghanistan (20 now): they get handed over to their respective families for a simple burial (not even on a military graveyard) with, at best, a saluting officer.

http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/dynamic/00107/Een_pandaschedel_e_107354e.jpg
Where do these boys die for huh ?

The glory of combat.

[The Lawspeaker]

The glory of combat.
"The glory of combat" Why don't you join up, mate ?
Go to Africa- they always need mercs.

[Psychonaut]

This is completely flabbergasting to me. I never knew that a soldiers death was only honorable if his military endeavor lines up completely with your political opinions. If that's the case then I guess not a single one of the soldiers, marines, sailors or airmen who fought in WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam or either of the Gulf Wars were heroes. I guess they all just wasted their lives, right? How stupid of them for doing that. How stupid for anyone to join their nation's military, right? Because you're undoubtedly going to be participating in some conflict that you disagree with, and then you'd be wasting your life if you happened to die defending your unit from an attack. I guess that Pennsylvanian who jumped on a grenade to save the lives of his comerades (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357671,00.html) was a fool too, right? I guess he and his ilk aren't heroes at all, just fools. I'm just appalled.

[The Lawspeaker]

No. They were not fools. They were just send there to die. And the U.S was actually defending itself in WW2 as they were declared on by Hitler on December 11, 1941.
Thus a defensive war- although fought abroad.

But stuff like this is indeed dying in vain. How brave it may be- they still die in vain. And I actually wonder- why do people always elevate soldiers to something "heroic" ? Is it because they want to make their deaths "worthwhile". How is it worthwhile to a mother that her son or husband gets killed ? What is so heroic about hearing a knock on the door and someone telling you that your son is dead----- halfway across the bloody world ?

[Skandi]

I don't quite get your argument, your both saying that he was brave and honourable, so what are you arguing about! However nobody can deny that his death was pointless, as the war is pointless, any deaths that occur in it are also pointless. He may well have been brave and it is a noble sacrifice but still a pointless one. Even if he saved others, which would obviously make him a hero, it is still a wasted death as they should not be there in the first place.

[Sol Invictus]

It's a shame that our Nations' armed services have been perpetually downgraded from a force guarding us from external aggression, to an armed force of unaware Mercenaries. Which is interesting because now that the people are actually catching on to these criminals, the Federal Government of the United States are actually pulling out troops, and replacing them with Private para-military firms like Blackwater, which is the highest-paid Mercenary force that the Federal Government is funding Millions of dollars in defense contracts so as to escape any allegations that Regular Army personnel are being sent off to participate in illegal warfare and dying for unjust reasons. No matter how much trumpets you sound and how many flags you wave, and how sharp you look, it shouldn't serve as a distraction for people to think that these patriots are actually fighting and dying for a patriotic cause. You may think you're 'honouring' the fallen but what you're actually doing is fooling yourself subconsciously into supporting the criminals responsible for sending our men and women off, or at the very least, you are sugar coating it. It's a shame to see well-meaning people fall for this high-tech propaganda. Let's honour the dead soldiers by vowing never to send our people out, who are willing to die for theirs, and our freedoms, to a desert wasteland for the interest of profit.

[Jägerstaffel]

I do not worship soldiers and do not think what they do deserves respect in all cases.

A soldier puts his self in that situation. He knows the risks. At least nowadays. I don't think any western solider joins up and think he'll actually be fighting on his own soil to protect his own land. He knows he'll be sent to some foreign country to fight for people and things he has never even heard of.

I just don't get the hero worship and I reject it.

[Vargtand]

"The glory of combat" Why don't you join up, mate ?
Go to Africa- they always need mercs.

As I said I have applied. did not get to go during that rotation will apply again.

[The Lawspeaker]

As I said I have applied. did not get to go during that rotation will apply again.
Then go for a real army: The Foreign Legion (http://www.legion-recrute.com/en/).
Then you can die a heroic death in all sorts of hopeless hellholes for a country that neither knows nor cares.

Bonne chance !

[Sol Invictus]

I do not worship soldiers and do not think what they do deserves respect in all cases.


I just don't get the hero worship and I reject it.

I'm not part of this death worship. But now a-days, thanks to this high-tech brainwashing, when speaking out against matters like this, you're walking a fine line between disgracing a soldier's death and his name which offends a great many of people (understandably in my point of view), or standing up for what's right. Standing up for the soldiers who stand up for us in turn.


A soldier puts his self in that situation. He knows the risks. At least nowadays.

Not always. Immediately after 9/11, prior to investigating for myself, I was awfully close to signing up for the military because I was so angry and full of hate that I couldn't wait to go out and kill Haji and take as many of them with me to the land of the dead. Instead, I realized my hate was misdirected, and I would've spilled someone else's blood for all the wrong reasons I would've signed up for.

[Jägerstaffel]

I say what I feel, whether it disrespects or disgraces anyone or not.

A soldier is not above any other man and his actions are not above those of any other man's.

A man needs to be responsible for his own actions.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty
I used to b i t c h about things like "elected govts" but have now come to the conclusion that it's useless. No matter who we vote for, they're all crooks. Voting changes nothing. The same people keep running things. The public will remain ignorant. Nothing changes.

First rule of power for those who have it is that they want to keep it and we’re asked to believe they would allow a system in which the general public can “vote” them out of that position of power, wealth and influence……..

Forgive me for not being slightly convinced. In fact recent years in Britain have shown all to well what an utter sham elections really are, and any knowledge of British history shows how ridiculous it is to call our system of government "democratic".

Money wins elections and the only candidates with any chance of success are those that win the support of business interests.

As for the thread you can separate the soldier from the cause, I support the men and women who serve in our military but I couldn’t care less about Afghanistan or the Taliban, no enemies of mine and if they want change in their country well they can go right along and sort that out for themselves it’s not worth the blood of one British soldier

If the UK is concerned about terrorism then the solution is simple, stop letting extremists in, stop bending over backwards for Islam, better yet start repatriating a considerable number of the ones here out, in exchange for Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc taking back their people the UK can give a cast iron guarantee to keep it’s nose out of Middle Eastern affairs, but we know that won’t happen the government has a lot to gain from the Islamic terrorist bogey man, whilst the USA has it’s eyes on more material and strategic interests where Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are concerned. Pliant governments keep the oil flowing and of course there’s Russian and China to consider….

What we have are two competing universals, global free market capitalism on the one hand dominated by a handful of financial houses and mega corporations and Islam. So basically two imperialist creeds.

[RoyBatty]

One doesn't often see the Perle's, Wolfowitzes, Rockefellers, Cheney's, Rothschilds' or Bilderbergers out there "dying" to die with military honour in pursuit of treasure and glory. It's usually the poor and the brainwashed who get that gig while the masters stay fresh in their airconditioned offices and limousines.

There's no honour in joining up to wage rotten criminal wars and neither is there any honour in dying in service of Mammon and evil. I accept that not everybody who joins the military necessarily have an opinion on where they are sent, why they are sent there or the implications of their decisions but in the current climate there's always going to be a fair chance that people will be sent to the sharp end to do the politicians' bidding.

Imo it's a gamble not worth taking.

[The Lawspeaker]

Another Dutch soldier died (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4779897/__Weer_militair_dood_in_Uruzgan__.html?p=2,1). 21 dead until now. Staff Sergeant Mark Leijsen (44) was killed by an attack carried out with an improvised bomb.
3 Dutch soldiers and an interpreter were injured- their condition is, for now, stable.

[Hors]

Your elected government has and the problem with governments is that they represent a country. Our country gets fucked over by our "valiant allies" as much as by own government.
We don't need enemies with allies like the U.S bankers, big industrialists and government.

But if the Dutch and other European nations break the military alliance with the US then who will protect Europe from the evil Russkies? The EU military alone is not capable of doing it.

So you better think that the Dutch are dying in Afghanistan stalling the imminent Russian aggression...

[The Black Prince]

But if the Dutch and other European nations break the military alliance with the US then who will protect Europe from the evil Russkies? The EU military alone is not capable of doing it.


A combined force of the British, French and the other European countries their armies would still be a large high-tech army. At the moment the Russians have thus no intentions to march up in the direction of Western-Europe.

The problem in Afghanistan is however the policy of Western Armies: Soldiers may only shoot when someone shoots at them, this reduces the toll on the civilians but also handicaps soldiers operating in enemy territory.

[Jägerstaffel]

Black Prince, don't make a habit of feeding trolls. :)

[Hors]

At the moment the Russians have thus no intentions to march up in the direction of Western-Europe.

So you're ready to sacrifice the Baltic States, Poland, Czechia etc.?