Secular Heathenry

[Jägerstaffel]

To start off: I'd like to point out that I am an atheist. I always have been and though I've searched long for a truth in religion - I've come to accept that gods are not for me.

But I also identify as a Heathen.

It's very possible for a person in a Western society to accept the moral code of European Christendom as well as the traditions and holidays that stem from it without being a practicing and believing Christian, but is it possible for a person to look upon their ancestral religion as the true expression of the ideal of their people while still rejecting the supernatural component that comes with it?

Is it an exercise in futility? Is it an attempt to cling to an identity despite not having the credentials to do so?

What do you all think?

[Skandi]

It's very possible for a person in a Western society to accept the moral code of Heathenry as well as the traditions and holidays that stem from it without being a practising and believing Heathen,

So yes of course you can look to it for guidance in behaviour and social dealings without believing in any gods. You could look upon the eddas as tales of your ancestors, some of these certainly have a moral element and were probably used for teaching right and wrong.

[Frigga]

You could identify as a Heathen and still be an Atheist I imagine. Indentifying as a Heathen Atheist would most likely mean that you look to the Heathen thought pattern for your moral baseline as opposed to Christianity. I imagine that there are many Atheists that use the Christian thought pattern for their morals. As a matter of fact, I'm certain that there are. Many Atheists do also follow the same holidays as Christians, so it would stand to reason from a preservationist point of view that you would prefer to honor older holidays as it would not smack of observing the holidays of our ancestors' historical religious conquerors otherwise.

[Lutiferre]

I would call this absurd, just as absurd indeed, as the Secular Humanist organisations who try to rewrite the calendar and culture to be "secularist".

[Jägerstaffel]

Why so absurd if I may ask?

Should a modern secular person reject all notions of Western morals, holiday and traditions based on Christianity as well?

Do you just find it absurd because you have such a vehement distaste for Heathenry, as evident by other posts on this forum or do you have a legitimate reason?

I do not suggest one 'rewrite' any calendars. I just wonder if someone can be part of a community like the Heathen community without worshiping the gods.

[Lutiferre]

Should a modern secular person reject all notions of Western morals, holiday and traditions based on Christianity as well?
I would say he should if he was consistent. But the absurdity, for me, lies in that I don't believe it's possible to be so for a "neo-heathen". That's also the thing with secular humanism; it is, in the end, a secularised version of Christian anthropology.


Do you just find it absurd because you have such a vehement distaste for Heathenry, as evident by other posts on this forum or do you have a legitimate reason?
I find it absurd because I think any attempt to "rewrite" a culture is absurd, so much more so, if it is "according to heathenry", which is practically non-existent.


I do not suggest one 'rewrite' any calendars. I just wonder if someone can be part of a community like the Heathen community without worshiping the gods.
And I wonder if I can go to the mosque without getting circumsized.

[Jägerstaffel]

I find it absurd because I think any attempt to "rewrite" a culture is absurd, so much more so, if it is "according to heathenry", which is practically non-existent.

I'm not going to argue if it is existent or not, that is already being argued and refuted in other threads you frequent, and I never suggested any rewriting of anything or changing of the culture. The question is, if it is possible to be a part of the culture without involving the supernatural aspects. We're all aware of your hatred of heathenry, but that's not what I was asking.


And I wonder if I can go to the mosque without getting circumsized.

That just it though. The circumcision is the tradition. The belief in god is a different thing entirely.

[Lutiferre]

That just it though. The circumcision is the tradition. The belief in god is a different thing entirely.
Good point. The real issue is really that you want to get circumcized just for the fuck of it.

[Jägerstaffel]

Thanks, I'm already circumcised and still an atheist who lives a secular life with a viewpoint that is surely based on European Christendom.

Anyone with a valid point?

[Psychonaut]

Jäg, my honest suggestion would be to go forward with it, keeping two things in mind:

You need not live in the same paradigm at all times.

The old adage, "if you pray long enough with your lips, one day you'll find yourself praying with your heart," holds true. The longer you act like a Heathen the more natural it will become and the more open you become to theophantic experiences. My experience has shown me that there's a paradox involved in the theophany. Many people require a theophany to believe in the existence of the Gods, yet my experiments have shown that it is only through temporarily forcing yourself to believe in the Gods that you open yourself to their revealing.

[Ulf]

Do as you please. Belief comes down to you and your conscience. Others and their pitiful judgments shouldn't get in the way of you doing what feels right.

I'd blót with you. :thumbs up

[Mrs Ulf]

I agree mostly with Ulf. I leave you with something I wrote up a while ago.

It is only when we are insecure in our own beliefs that we feel the need to disprove others.

What you hold true in your heart, can not be explained or understood by any other but yourself. It may be to the majority an oddity, yet it will always ring true to you.

<3

[Lutiferre]

The old adage, "if you pray long enough with your lips, one day you'll find yourself praying with your heart," holds true. The longer you act like a Heathen the more natural it will become and the more open you become to theophantic experiences. My experience has shown me that there's a paradox involved in the theophany. Many people require a theophany to believe in the existence of the Gods, yet my experiments have shown that it is only through temporarily forcing yourself to believe in the Gods that you open yourself to their revealing.
This holds true for all spiritual and religious beliefs. I completely agree. My posts was not directed at something like this; more like at the idea of "religion without faith". Partaking in the practice of a religion can lead to faith; like, vice versa, faith can lead to partaking in the practice of a religion.

[Andorran]

To start off: I'd like to point out that I am an atheist. I always have been and though I've searched long for a truth in religion - I've come to accept that gods are not for me.

But I also identify as a Heathen.

It's very possible for a person in a Western society to accept the moral code of European Christendom as well as the traditions and holidays that stem from it without being a practicing and believing Christian, but is it possible for a person to look upon their ancestral religion as the true expression of the ideal of their people while still rejecting the supernatural component that comes with it?

Is it an exercise in futility? Is it an attempt to cling to an identity despite not having the credentials to do so?

What do you all think?


In assigning value to practices, the most important thing is that one's actions fit with one's ultimate goal. Folkish heathen groups that strive to live in this century could provide a very strong sense of community and mutual strengthening much needed among our folk today.
They will celebrate what is heroic and great about our folk and keep traditions alive (and if it's to be a living faith, create new ones consistent with the virtues we hold). Our biological survival is going to depend on this type of banding together, in one form or another.

Now, even within a folkish heathen group there will be variations on how one perceives divinity. Some will view gods as archetypes, others will take them more literally. I think any awakened "Westerner" can appreciate the sacrifice and loyalty expressed by Tyr (Ziu), in losing his hand to save his friends. And what greater expression exists of a being striving to be greater, than Odin hanging on the tree or sacrificing an eye?

So what harm could arise from your joining with a group that shares the same ideals as you, even if your picture of divinity varies? If it's a base where you continue to develop your own nobility, and thereby secure the existence of our people just a little bit more, it's a good thing.

[Jägerstaffel]

In assigning value to practices, the most important thing is that one's actions fit with one's ultimate goal. Folkish heathen groups that strive to live in this century could provide a very strong sense of community and mutual strengthening much needed among our folk today.
They will celebrate what is heroic and great about our folk and keep traditions alive (and if it's to be a living faith, create new ones consistent with the virtues we hold). Our biological survival is going to depend on this type of banding together, in one form or another.

Now, even within a folkish heathen group there will be variations on how one perceives divinity. Some will view gods as archetypes, others will take them more literally. I think any awakened "Westerner" can appreciate the sacrifice and loyalty expressed by Tyr (Ziu), in losing his hand to save his friends. And what greater expression exists of a being striving to be greater, than Odin hanging on the tree or sacrificing an eye?

So what harm could arise from your joining with a group that shares the same ideals as you, even if your picture of divinity varies? If it's a base where you continue to develop your own nobility, and thereby secure the existence of our people just a little bit more, it's a good thing.


I think that you summed up my perspective on it nicely.

[Jägerstaffel]

I agree mostly with Ulf. I leave you with something I wrote up a while ago.

It is only when we are insecure in our own beliefs that we feel the need to disprove others.

What you hold true in your heart, can not be explained or understood by any other but yourself. It may be to the majority an oddity, yet it will always ring true to you.

<3

A good point.
Typically I live all of my life this way, meaning what is true for me may not be true for anyone else. But to most Heathens, the concept of family, folk, and community play a large role so I wondered how it would be viewed by those who DO see the gods and wights as living beings.

[Jägerstaffel]

I'd blót with you. :thumbs up

Cheers to that. :)

[Rachel]

i find it an interesting shall i say philosophy to believe in the ethical and cultural content of heathenry and have no aspect of the religious or dare i say it spiritual side.

in all respect and love can i ask how you feel on an issue such as death and birth ? where do you personally obtain your feelings for what happens after we dye or why we dye ... perhaps you obtain all of this from a scientific viewpoint? i am genuinely interested and mean no disrespect by any means. I just personally feel that the questions of how can be answered by science and philosophy and the questions of why have to come from a higher space/deity etc. so where do you find the answers to your Why questions?

I agree with all previous post having to do with your right to believe in and hold whatever you feel is true.

as i mentioned before i mean no disrespect

[Poltergeist]

The very existence of specifically "heathen" values is, I think, questionable.

[Jägerstaffel]

i find it an interesting shall i say philosophy to believe in the ethical and cultural content of heathenry and have no aspect of the religious or dare i say it spiritual side.

in all respect and love can i ask how you feel on an issue such as death and birth ? where do you personally obtain your feelings for what happens after we dye or why we dye ... perhaps you obtain all of this from a scientific viewpoint? i am genuinely interested and mean no disrespect by any means. I just personally feel that the questions of how can be answered by science and philosophy and the questions of why have to come from a higher space/deity etc. so where do you find the answers to your Why questions?

I agree with all previous post having to do with your right to believe in and hold whatever you feel is true.

as i mentioned before i mean no disrespect

Short answer to your question:

I believe when we die our consciousness ends and there is no awareness. I believe no part of us exists outside of our bodies, so death is the end.

I agree that the 'how' questions can be answered by science, but I do not think we should assume anything for the 'why' questions when we don't have any proof one way or another. As far as I'm concerned; 'why' is not important as I feel it is logical that there is no 'why', if you catch my drift.

[Aemma]

The very existence of specifically "heathen" values is, I think, questionable.

How so Lajos? Can you perhaps elaborate on this a tad more please? :)

[Poltergeist]

How so Lajos? Can you perhaps elaborate on this a tad more please? :)

This was more of a question and not statement. On whether something like specifically "heathen values" exists, I mean, values that would be specifically deduced from heathenry as such, from the polytheistic religion. Heathens certainly had values, but I am not sure if they were connected with their heathendom in a causal manner. That is, my question refers to the dilemma as to whether a revival of paganism would revive those values as well.

[Andorran]

i find it an interesting shall i say philosophy to believe in the ethical and cultural content of heathenry and have no aspect of the religious or dare i say it spiritual side.

in all respect and love can i ask how you feel on an issue such as death and birth ? where do you personally obtain your feelings for what happens after we dye or why we dye ... perhaps you obtain all of this from a scientific viewpoint? i am genuinely interested and mean no disrespect by any means. I just personally feel that the questions of how can be answered by science and philosophy and the questions of why have to come from a higher space/deity etc. so where do you find the answers to your Why questions?

I agree with all previous post having to do with your right to believe in and hold whatever you feel is true.

as i mentioned before i mean no disrespect

In nuts-and-bolts reality, the ethics and cultural content should be the foundation of a philosphy designed to preserve a particular group.

Tangible and rational understanding must be mastered before one can even approach spirituality - so it doesn't make sense to abandon the folk-worthiness of a philosphy because the intangible and highly subjective qualities don't quite gel yet. Those big WHY questions are what life is all about (a path vs. a destination).

Unfortunately (or really fortunately), no one can give us a big wrapped box on St. Leonard's day with all the answers plus a nice, pat picture of God.

What makes you great, what makes all awakened people great, is the willingness to explore those questions, often through established folkways, and the edification that comes with the experience.

[Liffrea]

Personally I have always seen Odinism as both a philosophy and a spiritual path; I think it possible for someone to live by the ethics of the NNV and the Havamal without necessarily believing in any spiritual element. I’m in two minds about morality as divine inspiration, you can see it as an extension of reason, the faculty that sets man apart and which, I believe, was gifted to us, but you can also see it as a natural outgrowth of human co-operation as society advanced in complexity…..

I tend to see divinity as transcendent rather than immanent so I don’t petition the Gods for aid in my life nor do I really pray on anything like a regular basis, I tend more towards the belief that man was raised up from his previous condition that we have been given the ability to transcend the material ourselves and develop our own awareness, Odin wasn’t a unique character, he was a path finder, many other have followed Odin’s example, perhaps been there before he has Vathrudnir springs to mind.

[Andorran]

This was more of a question and not statement. On whether something like specifically "heathen values" exists, I mean, values that would be specifically deduced from heathenry as such, from the polytheistic religion. Heathens certainly had values, but I am not sure if they were connected with their heathendom in a causal manner. That is, my question refers to the dilemma as to whether a revival of paganism would revive those values as well.

I don't think anyone would argue that courage, truth, honor, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, industriousness, self-reliance, and perseverance are values unique to heathenry - that would be silly. They are values held commonly by one particuar people I can think of throughout the ages without regard to, and often in spite of, their religion.

Values and ethics for today's Western man should be viewed from a "Six Sigma" definition: if they add value to the bottom line, and are consistent with the means to acheive a goal, then keep 'em.

Anything that does not add value should not be revived.

[Rachel]

in response to my own question ... yes i am just that silly .. i think the Why question which as some of you kindly pointed out can never be answered but is there to further us as human beings without the big WHY questions we wouldt have developed new and innovate ideas .. we would not have continued to search and seek when we had the answer to the how portion of life. Why is the mystery that keeps me ( personally ) curious in my faith as a heathen.

[Jägerstaffel]

This was more of a question and not statement. On whether something like specifically "heathen values" exists, I mean, values that would be specifically deduced from heathenry as such, from the polytheistic religion. Heathens certainly had values, but I am not sure if they were connected with their heathendom in a causal manner. That is, my question refers to the dilemma as to whether a revival of paganism would revive those values as well.

If someone rejects Christian notions of morality, forgiveness, family, death and life, honour, etc and looks to the the ancestral religion for those values as an ideal, is it possible to do so without the supernatural element? It seems possible to do so with Christianity.

And I believe that yes, the revival of Heathenry would almost certainly necessitate the revival of the values that go along with it.

[Jägerstaffel]

in response to my own question ... yes i am just that silly .. i think the Why question which as some of you kindly pointed out can never be answered but is there to further us as human beings without the big WHY questions we wouldt have developed new and innovate ideas .. we would not have continued to search and seek when we had the answer to the how portion of life. Why is the mystery that keeps me ( personally ) curious in my faith as a heathen.

I'm more interested in the 'how' to be honest. 'Why' assumes that there IS a reason for reality and I do not make that assumption.

[Johnny Bravo]

I would call this absurd, just as absurd indeed, as the Secular Humanist organisations who try to rewrite the calendar and culture to be "secularist".

Rewrite? Let us not forget how many Xian saints and holidays are of pagan/heathen origin. Pot bloody kettle.

[Grumpy Cat]

I self identify as a "Panthiestic Heathen". I don't believe in the gods literally, but believe they are personifications of concepts and forces that are generally hard to explain. SO yes, I am essentially an atheist or pantheist but I look at the world through a Heathen lens.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I believe when we die our consciousness ends and there is no awareness. I believe no part of us exists outside of our bodies, so death is the end.


Yep, you are just a soulless piece of organic matter, like a cleverly designed machine. ;)

So now you can go around informing other people of this 'fact', thereby divorcing them from their spiritual awareness.

Well done!

lol

:rolleyes:

[Psychonaut]

Yep, you are just a soulless piece of organic matter, like a cleverly designed machine. ;)

So now you can go around informing other people of this 'fact', thereby divorcing them from their spiritual awareness.

Well done!

lol

:rolleyes:

Oh come on Fortis, cut him some slack. :D

Jag's going about this the right way. He's not taking the nihilist way out of the recognition of the fact of materialism and just being a "negative Nancy." He's trying to, in spite of this, live a life that is imbued with meaning. Is that not a major function of religion?

[Fortis in Arduis]

Oh come on Fortis, cut him some slack. :D

Jag's going about this the right way. He's not taking the nihilist way out of the recognition of the fact of materialism and just being a "negative Nancy." He's trying to, in spite of this, live a life that is imbued with meaning. Is that not a major function of religion?

Whether consciously or subconsciously people preach materialist lies for personal power, to become bigger than God.

This is why atheistic regimes are associated with personality cults.

... and why they such the leader of such regimes try to 'ban' spirituality. lol

But it is not really so funny because they have locked up yoga teachers and meditators calling them 'neo-fascists'. (http://www.yogaesoteric.net/content.aspx?lang=en&item=3589)

[Psychonaut]

Whether consciously or subconsciously people preach materialist lies for personal power, to become bigger than God.

Not only do I think it odd to call materialism a lie, I hardly think Jag's preaching it. I know you don't ascribe to materialism, but since he does, would you not agree that it's better for him to still adopt Heathen practices and attempt to live as a Heathen rather than going the Dawkins route and being an annoying ass?

[Fortis in Arduis]

I think it odd to call materialism a lie.

Good because I never said that it was.

I can be 'normal' now.

It is a materialist lie to tell someone that they are not a soul, and that they are just a body, and that is what atheists do, for their own temporal aggrandisement.

[Jägerstaffel]

I'm not trying to empower anyone.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I'm not trying to empower anyone.

Exactly, you are trying to disempower anyone.

Have fun with that. :coffee:

[Jägerstaffel]

Exactly, you are trying to disempower anyone.

Have fun with that. :coffee:

K, thanks! I will!

[Hildolf]

To start off: I'd like to point out that I am an atheist. I always have been and though I've searched long for a truth in religion - I've come to accept that gods are not for me.

But I also identify as a Heathen.

It's very possible for a person in a Western society to accept the moral code of European Christendom as well as the traditions and holidays that stem from it without being a practicing and believing Christian, but is it possible for a person to look upon their ancestral religion as the true expression of the ideal of their people while still rejecting the supernatural component that comes with it?

Is it an exercise in futility? Is it an attempt to cling to an identity despite not having the credentials to do so?

What do you all think?

Not to be disrespectful to your age or your searches for "truth" in a relgion, but 24 is a bit early to feel the search is over in regard to what you term "supernatural". I believe *if* something exists it isn't supernatural. I also feel our understanding of what "god's" are or are not is open to re-interpretation. But I digress.

I came to religion as an agnostic, I had a sense of there being "something" other, more etc, but I certainly didn't believe in any gods. But I have found through practice we gain experiences that opens one up to the numinous, the divine (whatever it may be?). I certainly don't believe you should start out an instant believer in god/s etc without what you could term "gnosis", which though is subjective is a better foundation then pure faith imo.

But even if you are certain the "gods" (whatever they might be?) aren't for you then I see no reason why you couldn't identify as a heathen and explore the myths etc and the wisdom contained within and use it for personal growth and as a connection between your ancestors and the land and others of like-mind today.

[Liffrea]

The search for truth, hmmm is that ever really over? Perhaps it must be for some, Valhalla would be an empty place otherwise, perhaps…

As for “supernatural” is that nonsense or just phenomenon that the, limited, process of scientific cataloguing hasn’t found a tag for yet?

[Hildolf]

The search for truth, hmmm is that ever really over? Perhaps it must be for some, Valhalla would be an empty place otherwise, perhaps…

As for “supernatural” is that nonsense or just phenomenon that the, limited, process of scientific cataloguing hasn’t found a tag for yet?

The problem I have with the term "supernatural" is that when you admit to being interested in one area of this, for example the idea of Gods, then those who don't have such an interest instantly drag in other areas of the supernatural to show you how ridiculous such an interest is!

Because I have such an interest doesn't instantly mean I believe in Ghosts/Unicorns/ Father Christmas and faeries at the bottom of my garden! (something I've been accused of recently!):rolleyes:

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Hildolf
The problem I have with the term "supernatural" is that when you admit to being interested in one area of this, for example the idea of Gods, then those who don't have such an interest instantly drag in other areas of the supernatural to show you how ridiculous such an interest is!

I would suggest that’s because they don’t appreciate that there is a difference between supernatural and metaphysics.

Spirituality surely falls into the category of metaphysics, a wish to understand causation, a wish to understand the root of being, of knowledge, the nature of mind, in a sense the search for a God(s) or lack of one is the basis of all philosophy.

I could only believe the ignorant would equate with that with ghost hunting or leaving milk out for the faeries….

[Baron Samedi]

I never conformed to any set views when I was a heathen, which is generally why most people hated my guts (besides the fact I was an outspoken person to boot).

People feel like they need a label, and need to belong to what everyone else is doing. Anyone outside of that is going to treated more critically. Simple groupthink.

Even with my religious pursuits of today, I still get scolded a lot for not having conforming views with the majority.

Odd, kinda goes against the whole "adversarial" philosophy/lifestyle...... But I'm not one to sling about the word "hypocrisy" much anymore.....

[Hrimskegg]

Because I have such an interest doesn't instantly mean I believe in Ghosts/Unicorns/ Father Christmas and faeries at the bottom of my garden! (something I've been accused of recently!):rolleyes:

You don't believe in Father Christmas!?!