R1b = True Europeans?

[Musso]

This thread is inspired by Mexican_Abdullah's post. Do you believe that the level of R1b points to 'Europeaness'? What would you associate levels of R1b with? I think the problem with using R1b to indicate anything is that, for example: Tajiks will probably have higher R1b levels than some Europeans on the European continent. In my opinion, 'Europeaness' is more a geographical+cultural indicator.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

[Methmatician]

What's with the low (or nonexistent) levels in Bosnia, Dalmatia and Northern Ukraine?

[Diërker]

What's with the low (or nonexistent) levels in Bosnia, Dalmatia and Northern Ukraine?

Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

[Methmatician]

Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

Thanks, but I wanted to know why it's so small.

[1stLightHorse]

This thread is inspired by Mexican_Abdullah's post. Do you believe that the level of R1b points to 'Europeaness'? What would you associate levels of R1b with? I think the problem with using R1b to indicate anything is that, for example: Tajiks will probably have higher R1b levels than some Europeans on the European continent. In my opinion, 'Europeaness' is more a geographical+cultural indicator.



Really? What levels are Tajik r1b at?



Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

Wow, I1 is higher than i thought in Bosnians.

[Diërker]

Really? What levels are Tajik r1b at?




Wow, I1 is higher than i thought in Bosnians.

I have no clue about these Genetic things. What does I1 belong to?

[1stLightHorse]

haplogroup I1, it's like i guess you can say a Clan of genetic origin, which is traced Paternally. if that makes sense xD

I found it unusually high, because it's common in North germanics, and i think reaches its peak in Sweden.

[Geni]

Really? What levels are Tajik r1b at?




Wow, I1 is higher than i thought in Bosnians.

man I2a(slavic) not I1(pre germanic)

[Diërker]

man I2a(slavic) not I1(pre germanic)

No, no. We have 52% of I1. We have Germanic in us beforehand.
Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

[ABest]

I thought R1b had been proven to be associated with Western Europe in general and specifically with the Beaker Culture.

It supposedly originated in Iberia. Also, R1a is associated with similar cultures in Eastern Europe.

[Geni]

Juka ..you have 62 % I2a233535

[Diërker]

Juka ..you have 62 % I2a233535

Where are you getting this information from.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

[Geni]

This site is 1 shit..but i see you love this...ok you are germans..:rolleyes:

[sevruk]

R1b=true wogs

[Geni]

Where are you getting this information from.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

the site wiki slavia :rolleyes: i wonder that albanian are not 98 %african from zambia in this site,,:shrug:

[ZephyrousMandaru]

R1b is not a European Haplogroup, it's highest genetic diversity is observed in Western Asia. The reason why it's ubiquitous in Western Europe, can be due to genetic drift. R1b likely arrived along with other Y-DNA haplogroups during the Neolithic revolution.

[wvwvw]

the site wiki slavia :rolleyes: i wonder that albanian are not 98 %african from zambia in this site,,:shrug:

but they are 77% ...still excessively high :p

[alfieb]

R1b=true wogs
R1a = true Indo-Aryans

[wvwvw]

The maximal negative exception are Albanians, and especially Kosovars in Balkans, whose inherited genom is evidently and strongly non-European: in 63% Albanians and even in 80% Kosovars - being the closest to Moors of Maghreb in Africa.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

:rotfl::lol: who writes this stuff! :1127:

[Didriksson]

Yes, Western Europeans are the true Europeans as they're so Rb1, while Eastern Europeans are fake Europeans because we all know how much they suck at everything with the exception of stealing, drinking, ect.

[alfieb]

Yes, Western Europeans are the true Europeans as they're so Rb1, while Eastern Europeans are fake Europeans because we all know how much they suck at everything with the exception of stealing, drinking, ect.
Well, InquiringMind is R1a, so...

[member]

Why is there obsession with "true europeaness"?

[Didriksson]

He's jut very lucky as all fake Europeans being R1b should be. I'm a very unlucky and unfortunate that I'm a fake European. The biggest tragedy of my life!

[Didriksson]

Why is there obsession with "true europeaness"?

It's normal in a way, because people tend to divide themselves into different groups. It's because we like to feel better than others.

[sevruk]

R1a = true Indo-Aryans

No, R1a true Indo-Europeans, your language ancestors

[alfieb]

No, R1a true Indo-Europeans, your language ancestors
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LENi3tiYqyc/Tm-uJA_KnaI/AAAAAAAABKQ/HCpfY-G2lT4/s1600/R1a1a_distribution.png

TROO UROPEENS

[sevruk]

TROO UROPEENS

unlike the Sicilian Arab-wogs, yes!

[Artek]

I1 are typical language shifters, nothing pre-Germanic here as someone says. They have probably spoken an archaic language before the arrival of first indo-europeans, since nordic languages recapitulate some archaic traces even today.

Germanics in shape that we know today arose, when "Hallstatt" R1b became involved.

Are R1b's True Europeans? My answer would be - it depends and not only. We must remember that in early and middle neolithic there is no r1b excavated in Europe, only G, I2 and F*(probably G or I though). I think that there were also some E1b and T, but we need more aDNA testing.

Their migration was started mostly in Bronze Age and most intensive ones took place in Iron Age, when the metalworking gave them a huge advantage over the previous populations. So they are relatively new to the Europe. Still, they made most of the MODERN European culture.

[Methmatician]

No, no. We have 52% of I1. We have Germanic in us beforehand.
Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

The I1 samples come from 100 individuals from Bosnia and Herzegovina. The ethnicity of those sampled are not clear. I wouldn't take this as an accurate representation of the general population of BiH.

[alfieb]

unlike the Sicilian Arab-wogs, yes!

By far, the #1 haplogroup in my province is R1brother.

[Geni]

I1 are typical language shifters, nothing pre-Germanic here as someone says. They have probably spoken an archaic language before the arrival of first indo-europeans, since nordic languages recapitulate some archaic traces even today.

Germanics in shape that we know today arose, when "Hallstatt" R1b became involved.

Are R1b's True Europeans? My answer would be - it depends and not only. We must remember that in early and middle neolithic there is no r1b excavated in Europe, only G, I2 and F*(probably G or I though).

true europians ? r1b is for 6000 years her..they are not europians ?:rolleyes2:

[Jackson]

Where are you getting this information from.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

Lol that site is completely wrong. It's so bad it looks like a trolling attempt.

[Peyrol]

haplogroup I1, it's like i guess you can say a Clan of genetic origin, which is traced Paternally. if that makes sense xD

I found it unusually high, because it's common in North germanics, and i think reaches its peak in Sweden.

L1 is heavy widespread also in Sardinia...

[Szegedist]

No, no. We have 52% of I1. We have Germanic in us beforehand.
Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

You wish
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I1: 2.5%
I2 +I2a =50%

[safinator]

No, no. We have 52% of I1. We have Germanic in us beforehand.
Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%

As Geni said it's I2a1b (I2a2 in old terminology) a slavic marker.
I1 is just 4.7 %

http://i.imgur.com/44Gm53d.png (http://imgur.com/44Gm53d)

[Hevo]

Lol that site is completely wrong. It's so bad it looks like a trolling attempt.

For example:
Ukrainians: Eu 74% (R1b 2%, R1a 54%, I1 18%), Neu 26%

LOL indeed, sites like Eupedia are more accurate than this one.

[inactive_member]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LENi3tiYqyc/Tm-uJA_KnaI/AAAAAAAABKQ/HCpfY-G2lT4/s1600/R1a1a_distribution.png

TROO UROPEENS


From India to central Europe!... The true Indo-Europeans unlike some islander in the Mediterranean trying to overcome his inferiority complexes over his exotic appearance spilling it over handsome blondes from north-Eastern Europe. :p

[alfieb]

You think blondism is handsome. I think it is unmanly. Proven to be a genetic mutation, or even a defect, like light eyes.

[Peyrol]

From India to central Europe!... The true Indo-Europeans unlike some islander in the Mediterranean trying to overcome his inferiority complexes over his exotic appearance spilling it over handsome blondes from north-Eastern Europe. :p

The only people in the anthrophoras which are obsessed with ''blondism, light eyes, etc'' and try to be associated with germanic people everywhere are the slavs. uh... :rolleyes:

[inactive_member]

You think blondism is handsome. I think it is unmanly. Proven to be a genetic mutation, or even a defect, like light eyes.

All physical appearances are due to genetic mutations or we'd have all looked like original people from Africa. There is nothing unmanly about having a particular physical appearance. Unmanly when someone constantly is bitching about phenotypes, haplogroups etc.

[kabeiros]

The only people in the anthrophoras which are obsessed with ''blondism, light eyes, etc'' and try to be associated with germanic people everywhere are the slavs. uh... :rolleyes: Shqiptars?

[inactive_member]

The only people in the anthrophoras which are obsessed with ''blondism, light eyes, etc'' and try to be associated with germanic people everywhere are the slavs. uh... :rolleyes:

Nah mate! You are generalising. In Belarus people could not care less about blondism or swarthiness. In fact, there is a trend on Belarusian television to employ brunettes or to dye hair brunette from what I noticed. Maybe on anthropological forums people are concerned.

[xajapa]

R1b is not the sole marker for Europeans.

[alfieb]

R1b is not the sole marker for Europeans.

No. I1 is also.

[Peyrol]

Nah mate! You are generalising. In Belarus people could not care less about blondism or swarthiness. In fact, there is a trend on Belarusian television to employ brunette or to dye hair to look brunette from what I noticed. Maybe on anthropological forums people are concerned.


That's why i speficied ''on the anthrophoras'' and not in real life.

[Proto-Shaman]

please also take in consideration Turkic R1a (the most widespread haplogroup among Turkic nations):
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/375061_646352862045206_1257477475_n.jpg
http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393142_646352875378538_751387203_n.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Central_and_North_Asian_populat ions

and R1b in Europe (the most widespread haplogroup among Western Europeans, Native Europeans and Bashkir Turks):
http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/247679_646352855378540_1597196844_n.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

[Peyrol]

please also take in consideration Turkic R1a (the most widespread haplogroups among Turkic nations):
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/375061_646352862045206_1257477475_n.jpg
http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393142_646352875378538_751387203_n.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Central_and_North_Asian_populat ions

and R1b in Europe (the most widespread haplogroup among Western Europeans, Native Europeans and Bashkir Turks):
http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/247679_646352855378540_1597196844_n.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations



Interesting....


http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/aa-haplogroup-r1a.gif

[alfieb]

Sicilians: Eu 39.5% (R1b 30%, R1a 4.5%, I1 3%, I2 2%), Neu 60.5%
Albanians: Eu 36% (R1b 10%, R1a 17%, I1 19%), Neu 64%
Finns (Suomi): Eu 35% (R1b 2%, R1a 10%, I1 23%), Neu 65%
Kosovars (Balkan): Eu 28% (R1b 21%, R1a 4%, I1 3%), Neu 72%

At least we're more Euro than Finns, as I've said forever. :lol:

[Artek]

Interesting....

Those "R1a Turkics" were initially Indo-European, but they overcome a language shift and took part in Turkic ethnogenesis.

[Peyrol]

Those "R1a Turkics" were initially Indo-European, but they overcome a language shift and took part in Turkic ethnogenesis.

Like the Tocarians?

[Artek]

Like the Tocarians?
Basically, yes. They got assimilated and turkicised by migrants from Uyghur Kaganate :)

[Damião de Góis]

This thread is inspired by Mexican_Abdullah's post. Do you believe that the level of R1b points to 'Europeaness'? What would you associate levels of R1b with? I think the problem with using R1b to indicate anything is that, for example: Tajiks will probably have higher R1b levels than some Europeans on the European continent. In my opinion, 'Europeaness' is more a geographical+cultural indicator.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG


R1b is not a European Haplogroup, it's highest genetic diversity is observed in Western Asia. The reason why it's ubiquitous in Western Europe, can be due to genetic drift. R1b likely arrived along with other Y-DNA haplogroups during the Neolithic revolution.

The problem here is that you people are not using european haplogroups. Saying "R1b" is like saying "R1a" and then talking about Indians.
These are only european R1b haplogroups:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s400/u106.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s1600/s116.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3628/m529all.jpg

^ These only exist in Europe. So no, Tajiks or West Asians don't have those haplogroups.

[Peyrol]

The problem here is that you people are not using european haplogroups. Saying "R1b" is like saying "R1a" and then talking about Indians.
These are only european R1b haplogroups:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s400/u106.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s1600/s116.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3628/m529all.jpg

^ These only exist in Europe. So no, Tajiks or West Asians don't have those haplogroups.



U152 seems connected with etruscans and/or ancient latins.

[inactive_member]

Lithuanians: Eu 54% (Rb1 5%, Ra1 34%, I1 13%), Neu 46%

:lol00002::lol00002::lol00002: hilarious site

There is little published on the distribution of their haplogroups. This study was done by Lithuanian author propotionally sampling different regions. R1a - 44.9%, Neu (N3) 36.7%.

Kasperaviciūte D et al

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4341/lith.png

[Proto-Shaman]

Those "R1a Turkics" were initially Indo-European, but they overcome a language shift and took part in Turkic ethnogenesis.
language shift :picard2: What was the language of the female's ancestors, as well as the male contribution from the eastern lineages, may be clarified one day with the help of the ongoing genetic studies, but a linguistic mass-conversion of the noble IE speakers, without a grain of detected noble IE substrate in the body of the 42 mongrel Türkic languages, is a pathetic pipe dream. Turkic R1a is the most ancient in Central Asia btw.

[Proto-Shaman]

Like the Tocarians?
Actually the ancient mummies were most likely culturally native Turkic inhabitants, they had nothing to do with the so called speakers of Indo-European "Tocharian A+B". The point is that "Tocharian A" is a philological euphemism for Turfanian, Arsi, or East Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan. "Tocharian B" is a philological euphemism for Kuchea or West Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan.

The euphemisms were invented in great drive for locating Indo-European Urheimat, to tie Indo-European languages to known horse nomadic conqueror tribes, and are recognized misnomers. Euphemisms do not belong to science, they are a tool of politicians. Tokhars - presumably "highlanders", from turk. "tau" - mountain and "ar" - people, tribe; their known Türkic names are Tuhsi, Dügers, Digors; they became known from the work of Strabo. [...]. Both names, Tokhars and Hephthalites, are exploited by protagonists of Indo-European racial theory as a bridge for creation alternative history and introduction of Indo-Europeans in the history of Central Asia, and creation of scientific controversy and muddling up the history. Both tribes are known as members of the Eastern Hunnic state; the Chinese name Yuezhi is routinely used in the scientific and popular literature to refer to Tokhars. Very rarely the esteemed authors note that “Tokharian/Tocharian” is a misnomer for the Kuchean and Tarim languages, and even rarer are noted disclaimers that “Tokharian/Tocharian” has nothing to do with the language of Tokhars/Yuezhi/Θαγοθροι/Tuhsi/Düger/Duger/Digors.

Sources:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/FryeCentralAsianLinguistics.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/21Tochars/HenningNameOfTokharLanguageEn.htm

[Jackson]

You think blondism is handsome. I think it is unmanly. Proven to be a genetic mutation, or even a defect, like light eyes.

Well a mutation is a mutation, everything mutates pretty much. If it didn't we'd still be pretty much the same as (pick a period in our long, long history) and of course all y-dna and mt-dna would be exactly the same for example. 'Mutation' doesn't mean a bad thing.

[Peyrol]

So, basically you think that Tocharians were a proto-turkic population, related to modern turkic Uyghurs?

[Proto-Shaman]

So, basically you think that Tocharians were a proto-turkic population, related to modern turkic Uyghurs?
Exactly. But this is absolutely unacceptable for the most Indo-Europeanists.

[Peyrol]

Exactly. But this is absolutely unacceptable for the most Indo-Europeanists.

They could also been a syncretic culture of both indoeuropean and uralo-altaic elements...their languages show a correlation with both the superfamilies....

[ALL]

The problem here is that you people are not using european haplogroups. Saying "R1b" is like saying "R1a" and then talking about Indians.
These are only european R1b haplogroups:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s400/u106.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s1600/s116.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3628/m529all.jpg

^ These only exist in Europe. So no, Tajiks or West Asians don't have those haplogroups.

I'm in the Turkish/Bashkir/Pakistani/Anatolian R1b cluster, do you like to compare Eastern Non European L23x51- R1b with Western European R1b L51+?

http://i33.tinypic.com/n3249v.jpg



Marko Heinila _ Anatole Klyosov
K years before present

M343_ 14.0 __ 14.0

V88__ _9.5 __ _6.9
v88__ ____ __ _4.3 (Africa)
V69__ ____ __ _4.3

M73__ _7.2 __ _8.0

M269_ _5.7 __ _7.0
L23__ _5.7 __ _6.2
L51__ _4.9 __ _4.9
L11__ _4.8 __ _4.6
U106_ _4.5 __ _4.2
P312_ _4.2 __ _4.2




PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:25 pm

Richard Rocca wrote:

alan_trowel_hands wrote:I was warned that the very highest peak in the middle east is probably false and based on a tiny sample and should be ignored. Nevertheless the next frequency band down does show the broad area where it is oldest. I would still use the term Circumpontic as a fudge.



MJost had calculated the variance of L23(xL51) as per Karachanak et al (2013) and the highest variance is now Bulgaria. Here are the numbers based on his calculations:

Bulgaria: 4.70
Romania: 3.82
Iraq: 3.82
Georgia: 3.50
Turkey: 3.45
Pakistan: 3.00
Italy: 2.83
East Caucasus: 2.60
Iran: 2.59
Macedonia: 2.00
Slovakia: 2.00
Hungary: 1.86
Armenia: 1.60
Bashkirs: 1.38
Greece: 1.30
Russia: 1.20
Poland: 1.00
Slovenia: 1.00
England: 1.00

While all cautions and disclaimers regarding variance and short haplotypes should be applied, it is clear that the highest variance is concentrated around all coastal areas around the Black Sea. The west coast (Balkans) seems to be slightly older than the east coast (Caucasus).
Maybe Age and autosomal.

[Proto-Shaman]

They could also been a syncretic culture of both indoeuropean and uralo-altaic elements...their languages show a correlation with both the superfamilies....
This could also be. There are even some Indo-Europeanist who think that Turkic originally belonged to the pre-Indo-European family whose ancestors penetrated in the east eurasian lingo-ethnic area in ancient times.

[inactive_member]

So, basically you think that Tocharians were a proto-turkic population, related to modern turkic Uyghurs?

Chinese found several mummies preserved in the sands of western China. Many western European scholars expressed a lot of interest in those mummies as their clothes were preserved resembling those of early Celts. Mummies had physical appearance similar to Celts being European having red hair. You can search the articles on the subject on the Internet, there's plenty of it. Ignore the comments "I see Turkic speakers everywhere".

[member]

Can I be proto-Turkic?

[inactive_member]

Can I be proto-Turkic?

There is no chance escaping a sea of Slavs surrounding you. You can only be one of us. :p

[Damião de Góis]

I'm in the Turkish/Bashkir/Pakistani/Anatolian R1b cluster, do you like to compare Eastern Non European L23x51- R1b with Western European R1b L51+?

http://i33.tinypic.com/n3249v.jpg



Maybe Age and autosomal.

No, i like to separate things. I noticed people talking about R1b in Tajiks and west asians while not noticing that the main Europan R1b haplogroups aren't present there.

[ALL]

No, i like to separate things. I noticed people talking about R1b in Tajiks and west asians while not noticing the the main Europan R1b haplogroups aren't present there.

Well, where do you think your ancestor's came from North Africa or perhaps Saudi Arabia?

[Damião de Góis]

Well, where do you think your ancestor's came from North Africa or perhaps Saudi Arabia?

My ancestors? The vast majority of them are from the Iberian Peninsula.

[Peyrol]

There were also some theories about a correlation of ancient etruscan language with uralo-altaic languages, lol...

[Sky earth]

Haplogroup r1b is universally and occurs in all 3 races. Full negroids like the Hausa People or half Mongoloids like Bashkirs carry many r1b in their genetically make-up. Of course subclades are also Important but r1b is too varied to be considered european

[Proto-Shaman]

Chinese found several mummies preserved in the sands of western China. Many western European scholars expressed a lot of interest in those mummies as their clothes were preserved resembling those of early Celts. Mummies had physical appearance similar to Celts being European having red hair. You can search the articles on the subject on the Internet, there's plenty of it. Ignore the comments "I see Turkic speakers everywhere".
Do you also want to ignore that ancient chinese chronicles recorded red haired and blue/green eyed Turkic Yeniseian tribes? Of course you will, because you can't get with these facts.

[Damião de Góis]

Haplogroup r1b is universally and occurs in all 3 races. Full negroids like the Hausa People or half Mongoloids like Bashkirs carry many r1b in their genetically make-up. Of course subclades are also Important but r1b is too varied to be considered european


Some subclades are strictly european. But people often forget about that.

[inactive_member]

Do you also want to ignore that ancient chinese chronicles recorded red haired and blue/green eyed Turkic Yeniseian tribes? Of course you will, because you can't get with these facts.

There no need for Chinese hronicles. The pictures of Mongoloid red-haired people in Udmurtia and Kyrgyz from Enesei can be found easily. They are mongoloid. The pictures of mummies uncovered in western China had typical European appearance and clothes resembling those of Celts.

[Proto-Shaman]

Can I be proto-Turkic?
Not proto-Turkic, but Finnish:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31993&d=1366274467
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32087&d=1366404232
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/311070_635983993082093_340462630_n.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

There no need for Chinese hronicles. The pictures of Mongoloid red-haired people in Udmurtia and Kyrgyz from Enesei can be found easily. They are mongoloid. The pictures of mummies uncovered in western China had typical European appearance and clothes resembling those of Celts.
The Celtic connection has been already exposed as a non-scientific pseudo claim.

Kyrgyz Tashtyk culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashtyk_culture
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Tashtyk_culture02.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Tashtyk_culture01.jpg

Ancient Kyrgyz were not mongoloid, neither are many Kyrgyz today.

Furthermore Tarim mummies had high checkbones, which is typical for Turkic people sharing the Turanid admixure.

[inactive_member]

Solid as a warrior of the Caledonii tribe, the man's hair is reddish brown flecked with grey, framing high cheekbones, a long nose, full lips and a ginger beard. When he lived three thousand years ago, he stood six feet tall, and was buried wearing a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. He looks like a Bronze Age European. In fact, he's every inch a Celt. Even his DNA says so.

But this is no early Celt from central Scotland. This is the mummified corpse of Cherchen Man, unearthed from the scorched sands of the Taklamakan Desert in the far-flung region of Xinjiang in western China, and now housed in a new museum in the provincial capital of Urumqi.

The reset of the article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-meeting-of-civilisations-the-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-413638.html

There are many pictures of mummies from western China (https://www.google.com/search?q=mummies+western+china&client=firefox-a&hs=J2C&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9JePUczuLYfiPLn5gLAP&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=573) strikingly looking European wearing clothes of early Europeans.

[Proto-Shaman]

The reset of the article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-meeting-of-civilisations-the-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-413638.html

There are many pictures of mummies from western China (https://www.google.com/search?q=mummies+western+china&client=firefox-a&hs=J2C&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9JePUczuLYfiPLn5gLAP&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=573) strikingly European looking European wearing clothes of early Europeans.
Rugevit, so called similarities in DNA and clothing tradition (which can be also found among Turkic nations btw) are conflicting the Celtic migration era. Thats why it is a non-scientific pseudo-claim and most scholars disagree with this claim.

[Turkophagos]

Europe is an ethno-cultural concept. There's not a European race, there's the Caucasian race and European people belong to its sub-types. The same applies to the haplogroups. Not all Caucasians are Europeans, but all Europeans are Caucasians.

[Sunphq]

Well, InquiringMind is R1a, so...

InquiringMind is E1b, paternally Med.

Aren't R1b, R1a and most European haplogroups all late comers? Bronze age migrants. Isn't E1b and G2a the only haplogroups that were here before those haplogroups? :p

[Artek]

Exactly. But this is absolutely unacceptable for the most Indo-Europeanists.
Indeed. A proto-turkic population speaking an indo-european language. I would expect more logic from the staff member.

[Proto-Shaman]

Indeed. A proto-turkic population speaking an indo-european language. I would expect more logic from the staff member.
Artek, Scythians were Turkic-speaking.

[member]

So, you are also Uralo-centric (bonus to being Turkic-centric)? :icon_ask:

[Artek]

Artek, Scythians were Turkic-speaking.
Even though, it's not an answer for my post.

[inactive_member]

Rugevit, so called similarities in DNA and clothing tradition (which can by also found among Turkic nations btw) are conflicting the Celtic migration era. Thats why it is a non-scientific pseudo-claim and most scholars disagree with this claim.

There was a guy with Turkic ancestry on this forum writing to you or another guy all he thought about clueless Turanists trying to prove proto-Turkic people had Caucasoid physical appearance. The guy knew the history well.
The theory about Caucasoid appearance of proto-Turkic is promoted by Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turks. Some Azerbaijani scholars go as far as claiming Turkic original homeland was somewhere in the Caucuses Mountains for political reasons. Scholars from other Turkic speaking countries have none of the new ridiculous theory. Don’t you think it’s unreasonable to consider proto-Turkic were Caucasoid looking living in the sea of Mongoloid people in Altai Mountains? There are engravings on the stones found in Altai clearly showing mongoloid features of local people. Altai is birth-place of Turkic peoples. So, take a good look at the aboriginals living in Altai.
You live in a European country wanting to be associated with Europeans. As the guy with Turkic ancestry wrote - it’s disrespectful to his ancestors from Altai painting them Caucasoid.

[Proto-Shaman]

Even though, it's not an answer for my post.
Your post lack of logic.

[Artek]

Your post lack of logic.
Could you tell me - if Tocharians were proto-Turkic who gave them an Indo-European language?

That speech-change would mean that they are proto-Turkic no more, when the linguistical point of view is involved. From the genetical point of view, they were undoubtedly West-Eurasian paternally and West-Eurasian/Central Asian maternally.

[sevruk]

Artek, Scythians were Turkic-speaking.

new historical and linguistic discovery!

[Artek]

new historical and linguistic discovery!
He is well-known for such discoveries. It can be funny to some extent, but who the hell made him a staff member?

[Proto-Shaman]

There was a guy with Turkic ancestry on this forum writing to you or another guy all he thought about clueless Turanists trying to prove proto-Turkic people had Caucasoid physical appearance. The guy knew the history well.
The theory about Caucasoid appearance of proto-Turkic is promoted by Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turks. Some Azerbaijani scholars go as far as claiming Turkic original homeland was somewhere in the Caucuses Mountains for political reasons. Scholars from other Turkic speaking countries have none of the new ridiculous theory. Don’t you think it’s unreasonable to consider proto-Turkic were Caucasoid looking living in the sea of Mongoloid people in Altai Mountains? There are engravings on the stones found in Altai clearly showing mongoloid features of local people. Altai is birth-place of Turkic peoples. So, take a good look at the aboriginals living in Altai.
You live in a European country wanting to be associated with Europeans. As the guy with Turkic ancestry wrote - it’s disrespectful to his ancestors from Altai painting them Caucasoid.
Some scholars think proto-Turks originated from the Altai, some think from Central Asia, some think from Mesopotamia (with an originally Uralic homeland -> Kurgan culture). In any case proto-Turks are connected with Caucasoid cultural areas, since until 1200-700 BC South Siberia was almost europoid by racial type. The Kurgan stelaes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_stelae) of proto-Turks are one of the best resources to trace back Turkic racial components. The more you dig past Turkic history, the more you'll find a pred. europoid phenotype. What was the language of the female's ancestors, as well as the male contribution from the eastern lineages, may be clarified one day with the help of the ongoing genetic studies.

[Proto-Shaman]

Could you tell me - if Tocharians were proto-Turkic who gave them an Indo-European language?

That speech-change would mean that they are proto-Turkic no more, when the linguistical point of view is involved. From the genetical point of view, they were undoubtedly West-Eurasian paternally and West-Eurasian/Central Asian maternally.
I wrote it a few pages before: the point is that "Tocharian A" is a philological euphemism for Turfanian, Arsi, or East Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan. "Tocharian B" is a philological euphemism for Kuchea or West Tocharian; no relation to Tochars or Tokhars, Yuezhi, Bactrian, or Tokharistan.

The euphemisms were invented in great drive for locating Indo-European Urheimat, to tie Indo-European languages to known horse nomadic conqueror tribes, and are recognized misnomers. Euphemisms do not belong to science, they are a tool of politicians. Tokhars - presumably "highlanders", from turk. "tau" - mountain and "ar" - people, tribe; their known Türkic names are Tuhsi, Dügers, Digors; they became known from the work of Strabo. [...]. Both names, Tokhars and Hephthalites, are exploited by protagonists of Indo-European racial theory as a bridge for creation alternative history and introduction of Indo-Europeans in the history of Central Asia, and creation of scientific controversy and muddling up the history. Both tribes are known as members of the Eastern Hunnic state; the Chinese name Yuezhi is routinely used in the scientific and popular literature to refer to Tokhars. Very rarely the esteemed authors note that “Tokharian/Tocharian” is a misnomer for the Kuchean and Tarim languages, and even rarer are noted disclaimers that “Tokharian/Tocharian” has nothing to do with the language of Tokhars/Yuezhi/Θαγοθροι/Tuhsi/Düger/Duger/Digors (an Oghuz Turkic tribe, 1 out of 24).

Sources:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/FryeCentralAsianLinguistics.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/21Tochars/HenningNameOfTokharLanguageEn.htm

[Proto-Shaman]

new historical and linguistic discovery!
Trolling won't help you at all. Do some research before trolling, please.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l82fmlzLdjc

[sevruk]

Trolling won't help you at all.

what are you? I do not troll, I am delighted with these discoveries!

[Hevo]

Yes and J2 were there before too.

And I1 too right?

[Proto-Shaman]

what are you? I do not troll, I am delighted with these discoveries!
Sevruk, you are very well known for your ironic expressions :)

[Proto-Shaman]

...
here is a good thread about this issue btw:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?73880-Were-the-Turks-only-Mongoloids-and-givers-of-T%FCrkic-language-to-non-Mongoloids

[Jackson]

Europe is an ethno-cultural concept. There's not a European race, there's the Caucasian race and European people belong to its sub-types. The same applies to the haplogroups. Not all Caucasians are Europeans, but all Europeans are Caucasians.

That is true, we're a bunch of peoples that happen to occupy a particular geographical area and are relatively similar to each other. Although it's not true across the board, because some Europeans are more similar to non-Europeans than they are to some other Europeans. But then the groups that they are closest to are the non-Europeans that are most similar to Europeans. So i guess it can get pretty blurry.

[Jackson]

And I1 too right?

Most likely pre-I1, depending on what view you take of it's age. It seems to be a young group of I that has most likely been here a while. Still i guess we don't really know how long it's been here exactly, and the I branch comes from West Asia as well so...

[Insuperable]

InquiringMind is E1b, paternally Med.

Aren't R1b, R1a and most European haplogroups all late comers? Bronze age migrants. Isn't E1b and G2a the only haplogroups that were here before those haplogroups?



Yes and J2 were there before too.


Most likely pre-I1, depending on what view you take of it's age. It seems to be a young group of I that has most likely been here a while. Still i guess we don't really know how long it's been here exactly, and the I branch comes from West Asia as well so...

I seriously doubt that any clade of G and E are pre-I1. Of course some clades are young, but what does that have to do with which haplogroup was present in Europe before or later?

[Jackson]

I seriously doubt that any clade of G and E are pre-I1. Of course some clades are young, but what does that have to do with which haplogroup was present in Europe before or later?

I meant pre-I1 as in I that was not I2, before I1 came into existence. But technically most G and E clades in Europe are likely to be older than I1 because I1 is around 4500 years old or so, as far as i know?

But yeah its a good point. We could argue all day (and i think many here have) over which haplogroups are more or less European, but as far as i'm concerned, if it's been here in appreciable numbers for some time then it's European, because it's hardly like a European ethnicity crystallized at a certain point in time, it's constantly changing.

[Insuperable]

I meant pre-I1 as in I that was not I2, before I1 came into existence. But technically most G and E clades in Europe are likely to be older than I1 because I1 is around 4500 years old or so, as far as i know?

Ah, ok
It is generally believed that Cro-magnon's belonged to IJ haplogroup or as I have read somewhere possibly to I alone. I1 and I2 are the only haplogroups for which is believed to have the origins in Europe so G and E can not be older. If some E clade is older than the some I clade it does not mean that the ancestors of that E clade were present in Europe or somewhere else before the latter.
Check here
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml


We could argue all day (and i think many here have) over which haplogroups are more or less European, but as far as i'm concerned, if it's been here in appreciable numbers for some time then it's European, because it's hardly like a European ethnicity crystallized at a certain point in time, it's constantly changing.

Yes, of course

[Jackson]

Ah, ok
It is generally believed that Cro-magnon's belonged to IJ haplogroup or as I have read somewhere possibly to I alone. I1 and I2 are the only haplogroups for which is believed to have the origins in Europe so G and E can not be older. If some E clade is older than the some I clade it does not mean that the ancestors of that E clade were present in Europe or somewhere else before the latter.
Check here
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml



Yes, of course

I think you misunderstand. I was saying that if I1 is quite young (4500) years (which it may not be, i don't know who is right about the dating) then probably most E and G clades will arisen earlier (although i don't know much about those two), but yeah the predecessor to I1, along with I2, has probably been there for a while.

[Insuperable]

I think you misunderstand. I was saying that if I1 is quite young (4500) years (which it may not be, i don't know who is right about the dating) then probably most E and G clades will arisen earlier (although i don't know much about those two), but yeah the predecessor to I1, along with I2, has probably been there for a while.

Yes, I mis-understood it in the beginning, but I was not sure are we on the same page, so I am sorry for longer post.

edit: I forgot about the so called "pre-I1 haplogroup", until I saw it on Eupedia just about now in the post before

[Jackson]

Yes, I mis-understood it in the beginning, but I was not sure are we on the same page, so I am sorry for longer post.

It's no problem. I had a convoluted way of saying it. Basically i agree with what you wrote.

[Jackson]

How come some I & J people have high Neanderthal dna%, is it linked to pre I & J? (IJ, dont know the pre IJ name)

Slight offtopic.

It's probably just a coincidence. I think it's not really going to have a major impact unless you come from areas with very high levels of I, like parts of the Balkans or the Nordic areas, and as far as i know they don't seem to have more neanderthal ancestry than other Europeans. Although it would be interesting to see if they did have slightly more on average after all.

[Artek]

I think you misunderstand. I was saying that if I1 is quite young (4500) years (which it may not be, i don't know who is right about the dating) then probably most E and G clades will arisen earlier (although i don't know much about those two), but yeah the predecessor to I1, along with I2, has probably been there for a while.
That's true. Most of those Cro-Magnons were probably something like G,E, old I or even T. Clades of contemporary I1 and I2 are too young but many people still repeat unscientific nonsense.

[Harkonnen]

Fuck hell no cromagnons were no fucking G or E. Unbelievable nonsense.

[Jackson]

That's true. Most of those Cro-Magnons were probably something like G,E, old I or even T. Clades of contemporary I1 and I2 are too young but many people still repeat unscientific nonsense.

Could have been F as well i've heard. Although i assume that is F* rather than all groups under F.

[Artek]

Fuck hell no cromagnons were no fucking G or E. Unbelievable nonsense.
I remember, that some people connected R1b with Cro-Magnons. Everyone knows today, that it's impossible.

But have you got any better, older haplogroups in mind? Maybe some scattered F* as well?

[Ivan Kramskoï]

Halogroup I is only present in Europe so I would say I=True Europeans !!!

[member]

I remember, that some people connected R1b with Cro-Magnons. Everyone knows today, that it's impossible.

But have you got any better, older haplogroups in mind? Maybe some scattered F* as well?

I wonder about bro-magnons. You seem a smart guy, Artek. So, what do you think?

[American_Hispanist]

The only people in the anthrophoras which are obsessed with ''blondism, light eyes, etc'' and try to be associated with germanic people everywhere are the slavs. uh... :rolleyes:

LOL. :lol: there is no good reason to be associated with Germanic people. Germanics lack the history and richness of the Mediterraneans. :D but, some ppl on this forum are just simply delusional. :lol:


At least we're more Euro than Finns, as I've said forever. :lol:

I have said this already. R1B is the true european genetic group, and this is very true based on the theory that the ancestors of the Basques were living in europe before migrations of other people came along to europe. Finns are nothing more than Uralic people, and Uralic people are more related to Turks than to actual Europeans. :lol: so much for them being so "european." some people on this forum think that the more paler you are, the more european you are when that isn't true at all. genetics is the true teller of who is more european, and it always points towards...... wait for it......wait... R1B. now slavs with their turkic/uralic brothers will rage in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...


The problem here is that you people are not using european haplogroups. Saying "R1b" is like saying "R1a" and then talking about Indians.
These are only european R1b haplogroups:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s400/u106.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s1600/s116.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3628/m529all.jpg

^ These only exist in Europe. So no, Tajiks or West Asians don't have those haplogroups.

Bingo. :thumb001:


Sevruk, you are very well known for your ironic expressions :)

lol. :laugh:

[Styggnacke]

The proto-Indo-Europeans most likely were all R1a, so obviously that's the most European haplogroup. Nuff said.

[Harkonnen]

I remember, that some people connected R1b with Cro-Magnons. Everyone knows today, that it's impossible.

But have you got any better, older haplogroups in mind? Maybe some scattered F* as well?

I don't normally guess but you have convinced me to cure my habits. I guess that the legendary Cro Magnons had about gazillion different Y-so-happy-groups, all extinct since year 1000 Anno Mundi. Rest in peace. Dust to dust earth to earth ashes to ashes.

[Artek]

I don't normally guess but you have convinced me to cure my habits. I guess that the legendary Cro Magnons had about gazillion different Y-so-happy-groups, all extinct since year 1000 Anno Mundi. Rest in peace. Dust to dust earth to earth ashes to ashes.
You can still be ironic but we have to realise that Upper Paleolithic was several millennias ago. It's normal that haplogroup distribution was rather drastically different from known today.

[xajapa]

No. I1 is also.
From what I know, I would say the original, but the crux of the answer will depend upon what is meant by "true Europeans?" R1b and R1a have been in Europe long enough for me to consider all 3 as markers for Europeans.

[liamliam]

Thanks, but I wanted to know why it's so small.

I opened a thread about this a few weeks ago, here it is:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?74366-Interesting-DNA-maps-show-very-strong-link-between-Irish-British-and-Spanish-Portuguese-DNA


Back to your question, this is what I found:



The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Eurasia, most likely in Western Asia.[6] T. Karafet et al. estimated the age of R1, the parent of R1b, as 18,500 years before present.[1]
Early research focused upon Europe. In 2000 Ornella Semino and colleagues argued that R1b had been in Europe before the end of Ice Age, and had spread north from an Iberian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.[7] Age estimates of R1b in Europe have steadily decreased in more recent studies, at least concerning the majority of R1b, with more recent studies suggesting a Neolithic age or younger.[6][8][9][10] Only Morelli et al. have recently attempted to defend a Palaeolithic origin for R1b1b2.[11] Irrespective of STR coalescence calculations, Chikhi et al. pointed out that the timing of molecular divergences does not coincide with population splits; the TMRCA of haplogroup R1b (whether in the Palaeolithic or Neolithic) dates to its point of origin somewhere in Eurasia, and not its arrival in western Europe.[1]

Barbara Arredi and colleagues were the first to point out that the distribution of R1b STR variance in Europe forms a cline from east to west, which is more consistent with an entry into Europe from Western Asia with the spread of farming.[10] A 2009 paper by Chiaroni et al. added to this perspective by using R1b as an example of a wave haplogroup distribution, in this case from east to west.[12] The proposal of a southeastern origin of R1b were supported by three detailed studies based on large datasets published in 2010. These detected that the earliest subclades of R1b are found in western Asia and the most recent in western Europe.[6][8][13] While age estimates in these articles are all more recent than the Last Glacial Maximum, all mention the Neolithic, when farming was introduced to Europe from the Middle East as a possible candidate period. Myres et al. (August 2010), and Cruciani et al. (August 2010) both remained undecided on the exact dating of the migration or migrations responsible for this distribution, not ruling out migrations as early as the Mesolithic or as late as Hallstatt but more probably Late Neolithic.[6] They noted that direct evidence from ancient DNA may be needed to resolve these gene flows.[6] Lee et al. (May 2012) analysed the ancient DNA of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany identifying two males as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.[14] Analysis of ancient Y DNA from the remains of populations derived from early Neolithic settlements such as the Mediterranean Cardium and Central and North European LBK settlements have found an absence of males belonging to haplogroup R1b.[15][16]
European R1b is now known to be dominated by R-M269, and the origins of this branch are discussed further in more detail below.

[liamliam]

some more maps:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg/800px-Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/__y-map.gif

http://www.slovio.com/slavic-gene/Haplogroup_I.png

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/priwas/Y-dnaBalanowsky.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JLuWdNN3c3A/UA64E0c5M6I/AAAAAAAAADY/emnbX4kB1cM/s1600/Haplogroups_europe.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xwnAive5Y9k/T8hy1TEXB9I/AAAAAAAADg0/vthwYqDi5A8/s1600/pop-finder-map-img.aspx.png

[1stLightHorse]

I don't think there's anything such as 'true european haplogroup'. It is however the dominant lineage.

A lot of other lineages existed in Europe. I is native, N was also present, E, J, G came during neothilic agricultural expansion, so why did R1a and R1b dominate? R1b accounts for more than 50% of the lineages of western european men. There has to be an explanation for the dominance. Any ideas?

Large population? Better warfare? What's the deal.

[Artek]

The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Eurasia, most likely in Western Asia.[6] T. Karafet et al. estimated the age of R1, the parent of R1b, as 18,500 years before present.[1]
Early research focused upon Europe. In 2000 Ornella Semino and colleagues argued that R1b had been in Europe before the end of Ice Age, and had spread north from an Iberian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.[7] Age estimates of R1b in Europe have steadily decreased in more recent studies, at least concerning the majority of R1b, with more recent studies suggesting a Neolithic age or younger.[6][8][9][10] Only Morelli et al. have recently attempted to defend a Palaeolithic origin for R1b1b2.[11] Irrespective of STR coalescence calculations, Chikhi et al. pointed out that the timing of molecular divergences does not coincide with population splits; the TMRCA of haplogroup R1b (whether in the Palaeolithic or Neolithic) dates to its point of origin somewhere in Eurasia, and not its arrival in western Europe.[1]

Barbara Arredi and colleagues were the first to point out that the distribution of R1b STR variance in Europe forms a cline from east to west, which is more consistent with an entry into Europe from Western Asia with the spread of farming.[10] A 2009 paper by Chiaroni et al. added to this perspective by using R1b as an example of a wave haplogroup distribution, in this case from east to west.[12] The proposal of a southeastern origin of R1b were supported by three detailed studies based on large datasets published in 2010. These detected that the earliest subclades of R1b are found in western Asia and the most recent in western Europe.[6][8][13] While age estimates in these articles are all more recent than the Last Glacial Maximum, all mention the Neolithic, when farming was introduced to Europe from the Middle East as a possible candidate period. Myres et al. (August 2010), and Cruciani et al. (August 2010) both remained undecided on the exact dating of the migration or migrations responsible for this distribution, not ruling out migrations as early as the Mesolithic or as late as Hallstatt but more probably Late Neolithic.[6] They noted that direct evidence from ancient DNA may be needed to resolve these gene flows.[6] Lee et al. (May 2012) analysed the ancient DNA of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany identifying two males as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.[14] Analysis of ancient Y DNA from the remains of populations derived from early Neolithic settlements such as the Mediterranean Cardium and Central and North European LBK settlements have found an absence of males belonging to haplogroup R1b.[15][16]
European R1b is now known to be dominated by R-M269, and the origins of this branch are discussed further in more detail below.

Good point - R1b is not that old, especially in Western Europe. Basques are also not that old, as many people think.


Finally, several ancient DNA samples have been recovered and amplified from Palaeolithic sites in the Basque region. The collection of mtDNA haplogroups sampled there differed significantly compared to their modern frequencies, leading the authors to conclude that there is "discontinuity" between ancient and modern Basques.[57]


Thus, while Basques (like all Europeans) harbour some very archaic lineages (such as mtDNA Hg U8a), they are not of "undiluted Palaeolithic ancestry", nor are they ancestral to large parts of western Europe. Rather, their genetic distinctiveness is a result of centuries of low population size, genetic drift and endogamy.

Source: http://www.jogg.info/22/Coffman.htm

[sevruk]

R1berian vs. aR1an!

[Artek]

R1a people:
-successful impeR1alists
-great industR1alists
-top tR1athletes
-loyal praetoR1ans
-competent seretaR1ans

R1b people:
-terR1ble drivers
-notorious bR1bers
-horR1ble leaders
-fluent cR1bbers

;)

[Geni]

R1a people:
-successful impeR1alists
-great industR1alists
-top tR1athletes
-loyal praetoR1ans
-competent seretaR1ans

R1b people:
-terR1ble drivers
-notorious bR1bers
-horR1ble leaders
-fluent cR1bbers

;)

:smilie_auslachen:

[Geni]

:smilie_auslachen:

r1a= successfull imperialist = vodka imperialism
r1a=great imperialist = Now com the pick....33591

[alfieb]

R1a people:
-successful impeR1alists
-great industR1alists
-top tR1athletes
-loyal praetoR1ans
-competent seretaR1ans

R1b people:
-terR1ble drivers
-notorious bR1bers
-horR1ble leaders
-fluent cR1bbers

;)

R1a people = exterminated as subhumans
R1a people = backwards and impoverished

R1b people = created the largest modern empires (napoleonic + british + german + american)
R1b people = developed the dominant lingua francas of europe for the last 1,000 years (french + english)

[Lábaru]

R1berian vs. aR1an!

Western vs Indianos.

[sevruk]

R1b massive interracial mixed and inbred :laugh:

[Lábaru]

R1b massive interracial mixed and inbred :laugh:

r1b= global empires, rulers of the world, history makers/// r1a= Slaves.

[sevruk]

r1b= global empires, rulers of the world, history makers/// r1a= Slaves.

R1a Corded-warrior raped R1b Iberians-farmers and some Spaniards still butthurt

[Lábaru]

R1a Corded-warrior raped R1b Iberians-farmers and some Spaniards still butthurt

When? I do not remember any slave revolt in the history of my country xD

[sevruk]

When? I do not remember any slave revolt in the history of my country xD

Iberians are so obedient to that the Moors were expelled Germanics:)

[Lábaru]

Iberians are so obedient to that the Moors were expelled Germanics:)

:) I know a country what forgot expel the Mongols.
http://www.el19digital.com/source/articulos/2678.jpg

[sevruk]

:) I know a country who forgot expel the Mongols.


said swarthy Moor

[Lábaru]

said swarthy Moor

Well, at least this swarthy is in Europe and not in Asia ^^

[Sarmatian]

All I see here is kids playing 'my dick is longer!!!' game :picard1:

R1a = Eastern Europeans, R1b = Western Europeans. Both migrated at some point from outside of Europe so the whole arguing on the matter of 'troo Europeanness' is pointless.

[Lábaru]

All I see here is kids playing 'my dick is longer!!!' game :picard1:

R1a = Eastern Europeans, R1b = Western Europeans. Both migrated at some point from outside of Europe so the whole arguing on the matter of 'troo Europeanness' is pointless.

xD Well, the thread can not give much more, just a trolling one side against the other.

[sevruk]

Well, at least this swarthy is in Europe

but must be located in Africa

[Artek]

R1a Spaniards - aristocracy of germanic descent, elite warriors
R1b Spaniards - peasantry, commoners

[Lábaru]

but must be located in Africa

The fact is that Africa is closest to Europe, your land is more alien.
http://go.hrw.com/atlas/span_map/asia.gif

[sevruk]

Okay I really no pleasure these R1a vs. R1b wars.
There are approximately 50% R1a and 10% R1b haplogroup among Russian, and I'm not even interested what at me

[Lábaru]

R1a Spaniards - aristocracy of germanic descent, elite warriors
R1b Spaniards - peasantry, commoners

The Goths were Swedes, from southern Sweden, same amount of r1a and r1b

http://lasxtribus.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/2vsiuzt.jpg

Anyway Goths=defeated by Muslims /// R1b Celtiberians from North Iberia= Reconquista.

[Lábaru]

Okay I really no pleasure these R1a vs. R1b wars.
There are approximately 50% R1a and 10% R1b haplogroup among Russian, and I'm not even interested what at me

you take this too seriously, this is only a game.

[sevruk]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/R1a-map.JPG



this map is not very accurate.


Anyway Goths=defeated by Muslims /// R1b Celtiberians from North Iberia= Reconquista.
The Goths had come to Spain had little common with the Germanic / Scandinavians

[Lábaru]

The Goths had come to Spain had little common with the Germanic / Scandinavians

xD xD xD let me guess what teach the teachers in Soviet schools, Goths were Slavs, that's the reason there are R1a in Spain, oh wait....

[sevruk]

Goths were Slavs
Not:) Believe me, Soviet scientists were aware of the Goths, more than Western scientists.

[Lábaru]

Ok xD Anyway do not take this thread so seriously, it is just a game to measure our cocks, a bit of fun, I have nothing against Russia or Slav(e)s :)

[American_Hispanist]

R1B=British Empire, French Empire, Spanish Empire, Roman Empire, USA, English+French+Spanish being the dominant languages of the world, The Enlightment, Industrialization, The Renaissance, NATO, The Scientific Revolution.

R1a=backward countries, mail order brides, raped by Mongols, and being subjugated by R1B people

[Styggnacke]

R1b people = developed the dominant lingua francas of europe for the last 1,000 years (french + english)
Languages they got from R1a people.

[Sikeliot]

I'm R1a, an outlier for the ethnicity of my paternal line. I was surprised not to be J2.

[Artek]

R1b's in Mexico = lower strata of society, drug dealers, beggars, mestizos

R1a's in Mexico = Spanish aristocracy of Germanic descent, various Germanics and Slavs of higher classes.

[American_Hispanist]

R1b's in Mexico = lower strata of society, drug dealers, beggars, mestizos

R1a's in Mexico = Spanish aristocracy of Germanic descent, various Germanics and Slavs of higher classes.

:lol: there's barely R1a's in Mexico. even the upper class of Mexico is mostly R1b. :lol: even ask juanas_adiccion.

[Artek]

:lol: there's barely R1a's in Mexico. even the upper class of Mexico is mostly R1b. :lol: even ask juanas_adiccion.
Stop saying lies and R1b-centrist propaganda ;)



EDIT: If anyone felt offended - I must say that I was trolling. That should be quite obvious, but some people can take it seriously anyway.

[American_Hispanist]

Stop saying lies and R1b-centrist propaganda ;)

why would I be saying lies when my family is from Mexico and I have been to Mexico and have lived in Mexico. :lol:

[Lábaru]

R1b's in Mexico = lower strata of society, drug dealers, beggars, mestizos

R1a's in Mexico = Spanish aristocracy of Germanic descent, various Germanics and Slavs of higher classes.

R1a Germanic?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NMmZZkz6w5A/TQ-lEvrwkkI/AAAAAAAADXI/NUOb5ngJXfQ/s1600/mapa-de-estructura-genetica-de-europa.png

[Jackson]

R1a Germanic?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NMmZZkz6w5A/TQ-lEvrwkkI/AAAAAAAADXI/NUOb5ngJXfQ/s1600/mapa-de-estructura-genetica-de-europa.png

In the context of Iberia, most likely. As Germanic peoples carry small to medium amounts of R1a, and medium to large amounts of R1b, I1.

[Damião de Góis]

In the context of Iberia, most likely. As Germanic peoples carry small to medium amounts of R1a, and medium to large amounts of R1b, I1.

I think the visigoths were somewhat mixed when they got here, especially after spending some time in Eastern Europe.

http://www.historiasiglo20.org/MEC-BC/images/Visigoth_migrations[1].jpg

[Jackson]

I think the visigoths were somewhat mixed when they got here, especially after spending some time in Eastern Europe.

http://www.historiasiglo20.org/MEC-BC/images/Visigoth_migrations[1].jpg

I agree, think it seems far fetched to think that they went across most of Europe by land and did not change at all. In that case a bit of the R1a in Iberia may be non-Germanic but was picked up by the Visigoths at some point?

[Artek]

There is some R1a-Z284 and Z280 in Spain. First one is undoubtedly Germanic, second can be uncertain.

[1stLightHorse]

^^ gotta love them oakleys:lol:

[Pallantides]

R1b was spread to Europe by some horny West Asian/Caucasus folk in the late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age:p

[Lábaru]

I agree, think it seems far fetched to think that they went across most of Europe by land and did not change at all. In that case a bit of the R1a in Iberia may be non-Germanic but was picked up by the Visigoths at some point?

the Visigoths were mainly warriors with their families, were not known for mixing with the natives, certainly they raped native women and probably many took native women as sentimental partners but the Goths women usually ignored native males as romantic partners, a logical fact in an invasive warrior societie that today can be seen in the genetic conquest of Latin America and the Canary Islands.

Therefore the male Y chromosome of Goth origin certainly remained essentially intact, and that is the point.

[Fire Haired]

R1b has nothing to do with being european. R1b is a y dna haplogroup it is passed down from father to son like a last name. it only tells ur direct male line u can be 99.999999% chinese but had a IRish father 2,000ybp who had R!b so u have R1b. Y DNA R was orignalley mongliod it is the brother of Q the dominte haplogroup of native americans and central siberians. It is the cousin of N the dominte y dna haplogroup of north siberians and Uralic speakers. Also Y dna o the domint ehaplogroup of ethnic chinese the chinese ethnicity which started in the Neloithic age probably around 8,000ybp there has been neloithic y dna o found in china. O is domte actulley in most of east Asia Phillpenes, Japan, Korea.

Some how when R devloped into R1 it inter marrried with Caucasins. R1b defintley did not orignate in EUrope it most likley orignated around Iran or somewere in the mid east 18,000ybp. R1a though seems to have orignated in Europe. Then mainly R1a1a1 M417 people in Ukriane 6,000-8,000ybp and R1b L23 or M269 people of the mid east seem to have mixed cultrally and started INdo European language, culture, and religion.It is hard to say excatley how it happened but there is no doubt R1a1a1 M417 was then spread out of Ukriane with Indo EUropean languages mainly Balto SLavic and INdo Iranian. R1b L23 in the mid east seems to have made its way up into southern Ukriane then eventulley into west europe forming into R1b L51 then L11 which are very young subclades and take up about 50% of west european y dna they also probably spread Germanic and Italo Celtic languages.

aust dna is the best thing to look at it tells full ancestry not just direct lineages. All EUropeans trace back to the same Paleothic family that arrived or mixed with diff arrivals any were from 30,000-60,000ybp. R1b has nothing to do with being a European if anything hg I is what Europeans orignalley had.

[Fire Haired]

the Visigoths were mainly warriors with their families, were not known for mixing with the natives, certainly they raped native women and probably many took native women as sentimental partners but the Goths women usually ignored native males as romantic partners, a logical fact in an invasive warrior societie that today can be seen in the genetic conquest of Latin America and the Canary Islands.

Therefore the male Y chromosome of Goth origin certainly remained essentially intact, and that is the point.

I dont think the Goths or Vandals who were the east GErmanic speaking tribes that spread acorros almost all of east europe from 200bc-360ad were just warriors and their families. They were ordinary people because they settled and stayed for hundreds of years. I dont think they were set up like Vikings wee they raided then left. They also mixed a ton cultrally with the native Slavic, Sycthian, and Sarmatien, and Thracen tribes. They probably lost alot of the GErmanisim. Who knows who they really were were they like Germans in Germany and south Scandinavia or did there culture completly change. Germanic R1b S21 in east Europe areas they settled is only around 1-5%. They probably brought all or most of the I1 in east Europe. Overall probably around 5% or possibly 10% of y dna in those areas orignated with them. I bet the East Germanic tribes themselves were mainly from the native people.

So since Y DNA in east Europe of GErmanic roigin is kind of rare they probably did not take that many native wives. They probably were mainly just the high ranking leaders. All of west Europe after west rome fell in the early mid ages at somepoint was ruled by Germans because everyone trusted on Rome's military. I remeber reading something from the 600's i think about a Lmobard or another type of Germanic people that ruled Italy in the early mid ages. They said the Germans and Romans aka Italians stayed seperate and did not inter marry. The Germans they are talking about probably were not even German probably mainly from other people germans conquered before.

The Franksih Germans ruled France for hundreds of years but Germanic R1b S21 is almost non existent in modern French. The only place Germans really left huge amounts of blood is England and lowlands of Scotland were the people might be mainly of Germanic ancestry.

[d3cimat3d]

I hate to break it to you but r1b is the opposite of "true European". It originated in the Levant and still is found in high frequency among Alawites from Syria. The Bell-Beaker culture spread R1b through Europe via. founder effect.

Atlanto-Med component correlates with R1b:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2z9cshd.jpg

Bell-Beaker was probably maritime, like the earlier Cardial-ware culture.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2aak747.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery

[1stLightHorse]

I dont think the Goths or Vandals who were the east GErmanic speaking tribes that spread acorros almost all of east europe from 200bc-360ad were just warriors and their families. They were ordinary people because they settled and stayed for hundreds of years. I dont think they were set up like Vikings wee they raided then left. They also mixed a ton cultrally with the native Slavic, Sycthian, and Sarmatien, and Thracen tribes. They probably lost alot of the GErmanisim. Who knows who they really were were they like Germans in Germany and south Scandinavia or did there culture completly change. Germanic R1b S21 in east Europe areas they settled is only around 1-5%. They probably brought all or most of the I1 in east Europe. Overall probably around 5% or possibly 10% of y dna in those areas orignated with them. I bet the East Germanic tribes themselves were mainly from the native people.

So since Y DNA in east Europe of GErmanic roigin is kind of rare they probably did not take that many native wives. They probably were mainly just the high ranking leaders. All of west Europe after west rome fell in the early mid ages at somepoint was ruled by Germans because everyone trusted on Rome's military. I remeber reading something from the 600's i think about a Lmobard or another type of Germanic people that ruled Italy in the early mid ages. They said the Germans and Romans aka Italians stayed seperate and did not inter marry. The Germans they are talking about probably were not even German probably mainly from other people germans conquered before.

The Franksih Germans ruled France for hundreds of years but Germanic R1b S21 is almost non existent in modern French. The only place Germans really left huge amounts of blood is England and lowlands of Scotland were the people might be mainly of Germanic ancestry.

Fire Haired, you seem to be very knowledgeable in ancient migrations and so forth.

In your opinion, what do you think R1b brought to the table that has remained true to Northwestern european culture today??
Conversely, what do you think I1 contributed?? Do you think that NW europe inherited more from the mentality and culture of R1b or I1, since these are the two primary groups.

[Damião de Góis]

I hate to break it to you but r1b is the opposite of "true European". It originated in the Levant and still is found in high frequency among Alawites from Syria. The Bell-Beaker culture spread R1b through Europe via. founder effect.


European subclades don't exist in the Levant or Caucasus.

[Artek]

The closest to the "Mesolithic European" are actually the populations that are either N1c or N1c/R1a/I1. It doesn't mean that R1b is less European than the other haplogroups, because this term is relative and changed with time.

[riverman]

(unbiased, don't know my y-dna), I really don't think so, because it's found outside of Europe.

[ALL]

I hate to break it to you but r1b is the opposite of "true European". It originated in the Levant and still is found in high frequency among Alawites from Syria. The Bell-Beaker culture spread R1b through Europe via. founder effect.

Can you cite any scientific paper rather than you personal opinion? BTW do you even know the R1b snp markers among the Alawites?

[RussiaPrussia]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LENi3tiYqyc/Tm-uJA_KnaI/AAAAAAAABKQ/HCpfY-G2lT4/s1600/R1a1a_distribution.png

TROO UROPEENS

true aryans like hitler dreamed

[ALL]

Some how when R devloped into R1 it inter marrried with Caucasins.




R1b defintley did not orignate in EUrope it most likley orignated around Iran or somewere in the mid east 18,000ybp.
Yes they are called the Medes.


R1a though seems to have orignated in Europe
Can you cite a scientific paper not written by someone who is R1a that agrees with you assertion?

.
Then mainly R1a1a1 M417 people in Ukriane 6,000-8,000ybp
Myth propogated mostly by people with R1a1, if you can give some carbon dated samples to prove this.


R1b has nothing to do with being a European if anything hg I is what Europeans orignalley had.

Compare the ratio and geographic are R1b- M269-L23 versus I M-429-S22 two of these snps are found in Saudi Arabia and Somalia in double digits, guess which one?

[Peikko]

Wouldn't the true European be I1 and I2? Everything else came from somewhere else.

[ALL]

true aryans like hitler dreamed

Yes and he was ydna E. Most likely opposite of Medes if you know your history.

[ALL]

Wouldn't the true European be I1 and I2? Everything else came from somewhere else.

They have put huge mutation rates to separate themselves in time from there brothers IJ at the base of all I and J is M429 and S2 they share the same paternal snps found in Saudi Arabia and Somalia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

They have put huge mutation rates to separate themselves in time from there brothers IJ at the base of all I and J is M429 and S2 they share the same paternal snps found in Saudi Arabia and Somalia.

I1 and I2 have longer history in europe than R1b.

[ALL]

There is some R1a-Z284 and Z280 in Spain. First one is undoubtedly Germanic, second can be uncertain.

What about Z284 and M420 in Afghanistan? What happened?

[ALL]

I1 and I2 have longer history in europe than R1b.

Yes exactly we [R1b + R1a] should be speaking their language which was?

[Peikko]

I1 and I2 have longer history in europe than R1b.

Exactly. Besides, I1 originates in Europe, while R1b doesn't.

[ALL]

Exactly. Besides, I1 originates in Europe, while R1b doesn't.
I1 is the tail end of an expansion from the Middle East go to ISOGG and wiki IJ. If they originated from Europe what language did they speak?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Exactly. Besides, I1 originates in Europe, while R1b doesn't.

That's really just a matter of naming convention. For example subclades can be renamed (like how I1b became I2) to make easier for scientists. For example you can say I1 originated in Europe, or you can it's a subgroup of IJ which did not originate in Europe. There are subgroups of R1b which originate in Europe and if we wanted we could give them name (say R1b1b1b becomes X*). I think you understand my point.

So in end what's important is history, and I1/I2 occupied Europe the longest than I know of.

[ALL]

That's really just a matter of naming convention. For example subclades can be renamed (like how I1b became I2) to make easier for scientists. For example you can say I1 originated in Europe, or you can it's a subgroup of IJ which did not originate in Europe. There are subgroups of R1b which originate in Europe and if we wanted we could give them name (say R1b1b1b becomes X*). I think you understand my point.

So in end what's important is history, and I1/I2 occupied Europe the longest than I know of.

That depends if it is a member of ydna I writing his own history in Europe and claiming he has been there for tens of thousands of years. Depending on which mutation rates and formulas you can make anything possible. Again which language did they speak if they have been in Europe for this great amount of time?

[Peikko]

I1 is the tail end of an expansion from the Middle East go to ISOGG and wiki IJ. If they originated from Europe what language did they speak?
They most likely spoke some UP-languages we don't know about. But in reality, haplos and languages can't be associated with each other. There might be a new mutation happening right now and the first person with that mutation speaks the same language as his parents.

R1b is definitely more middle eastern than I1.

[Zmey Gorynych]

I's are tr00 europeans, R's are nothing but sand-niggas.

[ALL]

They most likely spoke some UP-languages we don't know about. But in reality, haplos and languages can't be associated with each other. There might be a new mutation happening right now and the first person with that mutation speaks the same language as his parents.

R1b is definitely more middle eastern than I1.

Actually all you have to do is give some scientific proof not your personal opinion where R1b originates from.Here is the revision as per ydna I1 which was supposed to be in Northern Europe for thousands of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29


The haplogroup was previously thought to have originated 15,000 years old in Iberia, but is now estimated to have originated between 4,000 - 5,000 years ago.[4][5]

[ALL]

I's are tr00 europeans, R's are nothing but sand-niggas.

Yes according to ydna I and ydna R1a? Just cite a scientific study, that we can refute or accept.

[Ice]

Proud member of r1b :D

[gold_fenix]

Actually all you have to do is give some scientific proof not your personal opinion where R1b originates from.Here is the revision as per ydna I1 which was supposed to be in Northern Europe for thousands of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29

Why the the change of time from 15.000 years to 5.000 years is a error very big this speculation, usually the datation change to be older that it was thought

[ALL]

Proud member of r1b :D
Do you think it is co-incidence R1b is higher in Anatolia where the Hittites[Hattusa] were located, than R1a and ydna I.

[Stefan_Dusan]

R1b has neolithic or possibly even younger age in europe.

I1 and variants have mesolithic or possibly even older (paleolithic) origins in Europe. That being said, I and variants are much more confined to Europe than R1b which spreads deep into asia and africa.

[ALL]

R1b has neolithic or possibly even younger age in europe.

I1 and variants have mesolithic or possibly even older (paleolithic) origins in Europe. That being said, I and variants are much more confined to Europe than R1b which spreads deep into asia and africa.

R1b- V88 is a "twig" it is not even on the same branch as the Caucaus/Asiatic R1b the ones carried by the Armenians/ North Western Iranians/Bashkirs, Ossetians and Balkarians.

I1 at the root is IJ M429 is much more prevalent in Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa than R1b found in Iran and Europe for example.

Don't take my word for it look it up and do your own research, just come to the forum with scientific journals or stats to back up your posts.

[Stefan_Dusan]

R1b- V88 is a "twig" it is not even on the same branch as the Caucaus/Asiatic R1b the ones carried by the Armenians/ North Western Iranians/Bashkirs, Ossetians and Balkarians.

I1 at the root is IJ M429 is much more prevalent in Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa than R1b found in Iran and Europe for example.

Don't take my word for it look it up and do your own research, just come to the forum with scientific journals or stats to back up your posts.

I1 and the root IJ separate by many thousands of years. It's a lot closer to compare subgroups of R1b around africa, kavkaz, siberia, and western europe than I1 and root IJ.

[Artek]

Actually all you have to do is give some scientific proof not your personal opinion where R1b originates from.Here is the revision as per ydna I1 which was supposed to be in Northern Europe for thousands of years.
Yes, I1 is actually quite young with most basal clades found mostly south of the Baltic Sea(Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Germany). I think it was spread with Corded/Battle-Axe groups into Scandinavia from the southern direction(story of Bothnian I1 clades is another thing).

So the theory of I1 being an old, Nordic haplogroup is very unlikely with other haplogroups being older in Scandinavia (like Q,N).

What about Z284 and M420 in Afghanistan? What happened?
Show me the proof, that we have Z284 in Afghanistan. It's a clearly Scandinavian subclade of R1a!

[ALL]

I1 and the root IJ separate by many thousands of years. It's a lot closer to compare subgroups of R1b around africa, kavkaz, siberia, and western europe than I1 and root IJ.


Like I said come to the forum with scientific journals or stats to back up your posts. I have already shown that ydna I1 has been miscalculated by significant margin. Your are dealing in pure theory because there is no IJ* both belong to the same root markers found in Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa, so the next option is to put as much distance in time as possible, if that is the case why does one group speak predominantly Semitic languages and the other Indo-European languages?

I-M429 at base of every I and J

http://friedfoo.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/ij-m429.jpg

R1b-269 at base of every R1b in Europe

http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Graphics/800px-R1b-DNA-Distribution.jpe

[ALL]

Show me the proof, that we have Z284 in Afghanistan. It's a clearly Scandinavian subclade of R1a!
That is what I'm saying I don't buy Mallory's version; R1a Z93 would have to have spread all I.E. languages virtually in the East. With the exception of ones spoken by ydna I and ydna R1b in Western Europe?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Like I said come to the forum with scientific journals or stats to back up your posts. I have already shown that ydna I1 has been miscalculated by significant margin. Your are dealing in pure theory because there is no IJ* both belong to the same root markers found in Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa, so the next option is to put as much distance in time as possible, if that is the case why does one group speak predominantly Semitic languages and the other Indo-European languages?

We can just go with Wikipedia which is what you used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)


Early research focused upon Europe. In 2000 Ornella Semino and colleagues argued that R1b had been in Europe before the end of Ice Age, and had spread north from an Iberian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.[7] Age estimates of R1b in Europe have steadily decreased in more recent studies, at least concerning the majority of R1b, with more recent studies suggesting a Neolithic age or younger.[6][8][9][10]

More subgroups of R1b are found outside of Europe than subgroups of I1/I2.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

Now compare to

http://www.pearsall-family.org/PearsallDNASurnameProjectResults12_files/image034.jpg

[MfA_]

IJ has been found by Grugni et al last year in Iran on two individuals (a Persian and a Mazandarani)..

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

[ALL]

IJ* have been found by Grugni et al this year in Iran on two individuals..

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Really you like the Grugni study, please be careful what you wish for. Then you have to be constant with all it's results and not pick and choose. Anyway which snp did they test for or not test for.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html
IJ M429/P125, P123/PF3554, P124/PF3553, P126,

[Artek]

R1b has neolithic or possibly even younger age in europe.
Precisely - at least late neolithic(eneolithic) age in Europe. The same goes for R1a, at least with the knowledge that we have today.


I1 and variants have mesolithic or possibly even older (paleolithic) origins in Europe. That being said, I and variants are much more confined to Europe than R1b which spreads deep into asia and africa.
Don't get aroused too much, since basal I2's (like I2* and I2a*) are found mostly outside Europe. I2a1 (P37.2) was already found among neolithic samples(Treilles in France and some megalithic builders) but it doesn't say much about its' mesolithic origins in Europe.

Most likely, it belongs to some seafaring populations descended from areas around the eastern Mediterranean.

It's time to finish the pattern of Paleolithic Cromagnon "I" haplogroup of Gravettian and Magdalenian Europe, because this scenario is far from being proven. At least for now.

[ALL]

We can just go with Wikipedia which is what you used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)



More subgroups of R1b are found outside of Europe than subgroups of I1/I2.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

Now compare to

http://www.pearsall-family.org/PearsallDNASurnameProjectResults12_files/image034.jpg


compare my post and compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. I-M429 with R-M269 you are mixing R1b-V88 with R1b-M73 and R1b-L23 choose one.

[Peikko]

Actually all you have to do is give some scientific proof not your personal opinion where R1b originates from.Here is the revision as per ydna I1 which was supposed to be in Northern Europe for thousands of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29
So? Iberia is still Europe.

[Stefan_Dusan]

compare my post and compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. I-M429 with R-M269 you are mixing R1b-V88 with R1b-M73 and R1b-L23 choose one.

You are the one also doing an apples to oranges comparison. IJ* is equivalent to comparing R1* let alone just R1b*

[Stefan_Dusan]

Precisely - at least late neolithic(eneolithic) age in Europe. The same goes for R1a, at least with the knowledge that we have today.


Don't get aroused too much, since basal I2's (like I2* and I2a*) are found mostly outside Europe. I2a1 (P37.2) was already found among neolithic samples(Treilles in France and some megalithic builders) but it doesn't say much about its' mesolithic origins in Europe.

Most likely, it belongs to some seafaring populations descended from areas around the eastern Mediterranean.

It's time to finish the pattern of Paleolithic Cromagnon "I" haplogroup of Gravettian and Magdalenian Europe, because this scenario is far from being proven. At least for now.

I'm I2* (otherwise known as I1b) and it's most heavily found in northwestern europeans and then Georgians/Armenians. A very interesting middle gap.

[ALL]

You are the one also doing an apples to oranges comparison. IJ* is equivalent to comparing R1* let alone just R1b*
Go to Grugni et al 2012 and look where you find R1* R1a* R1b* and compare IJ* I* and J*. Your base marker is I-M429 it is a very common marker among Semitic people that carry ydna J; that is were the branching started.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

I-M429>I1b
http://friedfoo.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/ij-m429.jpg

[Stefan_Dusan]

Go to Grugni et al 2012 and look where you find R1* R1a* R1b* and compare IJ* I* and J*. Your base marker is I-M429 that is were the branching started.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

I-M429>I1b
http://friedfoo.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/ij-m429.jpg

Branching started earlier, for example R1* branced to R1a and R1b and those continued to branch. Just like IJ* branched to I* and J* which also branched into I1* and I2* and continued from there. But fact is R1b* is found more outside europe than I*. And I* has by all accounts longer history in europe than R1b*.

[ALL]

Branching started earlier, for example R1* branced to R1a and R1b and those continued to branch. Just like IJ* branched to I* and J* which also branched into I1* and I2* and continued from there. But fact is R1b* is found more outside europe than I*. And I* has by all accounts longer history in europe than R1b*.

Yes exactly my point, very good; so in theory has had plenty of time to have it's own language prior to the R1a/R1b I.E. invasion. Do you know where outside Europe R1b*or R1a* are found, for example Africa, Saudi Arabia, Levant, did you check the Grugni study cited ?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041252


I'm I2* (otherwise known as I1b) and it's most heavily found in northwestern europeans and then Georgians/Armenians. A very interesting middle gap.

It's been said that Syunik/Karabagh region is Armenia proper. I'm just putting that out there.

[Artek]

I'm I2* (otherwise known as I1b) and it's most heavily found in northwestern europeans and then Georgians/Armenians. A very interesting middle gap.
Are you sure you are negative to all known SNP's downstream of I2*?

Well, a middle gap is my pure guess, since neolithic seafaring(and not seafaring) populations are mostly made of G2a and I2 with some E1b and F*(basing on ancient DNA results). Those haplogroups show clear link with Caucasus and regions southwest of that mountains. North-eastern regions of Mediterranean Sea seem to be a good base for migrations of seafaring early Neolithic farmers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cardial_map.png

As you can see above, such through-Mediterranean migration gave fundament for a development of Cardium Pottery Culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery

and other Neolithic(and Chalcolithic) cultures that existed afterwards - such as Bell Beakers, Cucuteni-Tripolye, LBK etc. that show similar mtDNA and roughly similar Y-DNA pattern. The main difference is, that Bell Beaker culture is the first such culture in which R1b was found.

Of course, we must be aware of many things such as still low number of neolithic/chalcolithic Y-DNA and very few regions covered for Y-DNA as well. However, we have a good collection of mtDNA that seems to help us all, at least in part.

EDIT: Too many "such's". My English really needs to be improved, it seems. ;)

[gold_fenix]

something that almost never it is said, who surely were differents waves of neolithic invasion of different origin

[Artek]

something that almost never it is said, who surely were differents waves of neolithic invasion of different origin
It's possible but still, basing on results that we have today, those populations have quite similar genetic makeup with just very slight differences.

[gold_fenix]

It's possible but still, basing on results that we have today, those populations have quite similar genetic makeup with just very slight differences.

no sure about that , between the west mediterranean and east mediterranean , genetically it is visible a genetical variatiation, for example East Asian or West Asian is very low in Iberia and however Gedrosia is higher when that zone is more near of the East

[Ice]

Do you think it is co-incidence R1b is higher in Anatolia where the Hittites[Hattusa] were located, than R1a and ydna I.


no idea..

[Artek]

no sure about that , between the west mediterranean and east mediterranean , genetically it is visible a genetical variatiation, for example East Asian or West Asian is very low in Iberia and however Gedrosia is higher when that zone is more near of the East
Yeah, the differences in terms of autosomal genetics could have been significant . I'm referring mostly to the Y-DNA and mtDNA makeup though. I know that they aren't the only thing to consider and I should be aware of it but they doesn't really show descendancy, it's also harder to read migrations' pattern from admixtures.
Especially if modern genepool is very different from those in period of interest. We are talking about few millenia here

[gold_fenix]

Yeah, the differences in terms of autosomal genetics could have been significant . I'm referring mostly to the Y-DNA and mtDNA makeup though. I know that they aren't the only thing to consider and I should be aware of it but they doesn't really show descendancy, it's also harder to read migrations' pattern from admixtures.

Well i am not from the basis to make assuption with Y-DNA and mt-DNA but this genetical information is neccesary but we must be very cautelous with it, for some population it works well due to high often of an haplogroup but in other there are a higher variation but this wouldn't mean a big influence of diverse people, for example in the case of Iberia haplogroups seem to have a correlation with autosomal but in other we see a heterogenous map of haplogroups which hasn't relation with autosomal, so we have to watch haplogroups but don't be based only on that, always is better to have the big amount of information

[Artek]

Well i am not in to make assuption with Y-DNA and mt-DNA but we must be very cautelous with for some population it works well due to high often of an haplogroup but in other there are a higher variation but this wouldn't mean a big influence of diverse people, for example in the case of Iberia haplogroups seem to have a correlation with autosomal but in other we see a heterogenous map of haplogroups which hasn't relation with autosomal, so we have to watch haplogroups but don't be based only on that, always is better to have the big amount of information

That's right. That's why I said that my theory of G2a and I2 intrusion into Europe is clearly speculative and should be supported with larger luggage of aDNA tests. Because a few haplogroups aren't sufficient enough to make a bet and be sure of it.

[d3cimat3d]

European subclades don't exist in the Levant or Caucasus.

How does that refute what I wrote exactly? European subclades are still descendants of Levantine and Caucasus R1b.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2yv14qa.gif

[ALL]

How does that refute what I wrote exactly? European subclades are still descendants of Levantine and Caucasus R1b.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2yv14qa.gif

Nice schematic were did you find it?
Look at snps M343 to L51, cite any scientific study that shows these two snp's or any in between for that matter, originate in Levant? Levant has two primary clusters of R1b L23[L51-] among Druze and Alawites they are related more to Northwest Iranians than to Western Europeans L51+. Also as can be seen R1b V-88 branch separated very early from the main R1b line, and went through Levant into Africa. Just like M73 separated and can be found on the Steppe and Alati but rarely in Western Europe. If you check the Grugni study I linked, you will see some listed of those listed snps, they generally are around Iranian tribes and the Caucasus.

[SSlava]

:D
J2a4b = True Europeans

Just kidding.
I do not know what a haplogroup is "true", as far as I originally heard the Europeans may have been I2 to the Indo-European invasion.

[SSlava]

R1b lot of the Bashkirs
I wonder what that means?

[Damião de Góis]

How does that refute what I wrote exactly? European subclades are still descendants of Levantine and Caucasus R1b.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2yv14qa.gif

You wrote that R1b was found in high frequency in those areas. Well, european subclades aren't.
Because writing "R1b" is as useful as writing "R1".

[Insuperable]

The closest to the "Mesolithic European" are actually the populations that are either N1c or N1c/R1a/I1. It doesn't mean that R1b is less European than the other haplogroups, because this term is relative and changed with time.

R1a (or R in general) mesolithic?

[gold_fenix]

R1a (or R in general) mesolithic?

early neolithic it seems

[Artek]

R1a (or R in general) mesolithic?

That's rather unlikely, especially if we are talking about Europe.
Both R1a and R1b are found in late neolithic\chalcolithic period (Corded Ware and Bell Beaker).

I think that mesolithic Y-DNA was very different from that found today. Maybe some F*, I* or Q/C are Paleolithic/Mesolithic in Europe

[Proto-Shaman]

I think we should open a thread about Ind0-Eur0pean "Y.Dna R1" and "mtDNA X" in indogenous North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Ameri cas).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG

[Artek]

I think we should open a thread about Ind0-Eur0pean R1 in North America.
We all do know it was Turkic :rolleyes:

[Proto-Shaman]

We all do know it was Turkic :rolleyes:
Wasn't that you who said that Turkic R1a was 0nce Ind0-Eur0pean?

[Anthropologique]

These maps (the two initially posted) are old and full of errors. Seriously amateur productions from a person who fancies himself a human population geneticist. :bored::rolleyes:

[Ülev]

whatever you write, the winners are West Slavs, always :rolleyes:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258105-West-Slavic-R1b

[Zroota]

Europe (and Asia) are a socially and culturally constructed continents.

Whilst R1b people may have spoken a proto Indo-European language, that doesn't necessarily mean they come from the European continent. There is another common hypothesis that R1b originated in Anatolia. Last time I checked, this is in Western Asia, not Europe.

[Kelmendasi]

Europe (and Asia) are a socially and culturally constructed continents.

Whilst R1b people may have spoken a proto Indo-European language, that doesn't necessarily mean they come from the European continent. There is another common hypothesis that R1b originated in Anatolia. Last time I checked, this is in Western Asia, not Europe.
R1b itself may have come from a more eastern area of Asia but had migrated westwards. The older forms of R1b such as P297 and V88 may have arisen somewhere in the middle east. But R1b-L23(perhaps even M269) which is the ancestral clade of the majority of R1b today most definitely came from the Steppe and expanded from there, based on ancient samples and basal clades found.

[Rocinante]

Yes.

[Bosniensis]

Sardinia & Bosnia I2 true europeans.