Was 9/11 a Cover Up?

[Sol Invictus]

State your opinions.

[ikki]

That the govment isnt very skilled, is göaringly obvious in the many things they missed. Like the fosphor remains in the ruins, taking down buildings that werent damaged, reporting buildings to have collapsed a bit before tey actually did so, the whole farce of wings having disintergrated by airimpact or some such re pentagon etc..

[Sol Invictus]

“Challenge Me On The Facts” – How Charlie Sheen Energized The 9/11 Truth Movement (http://www.infowars.com/challenge-me-on-the-facts-–-how-charlie-sheen-energized-the-911-truth-movement/)

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[Æmeric]

There could well be a coverup of government incompetence in not preventing the attacks. But I don't think the planes were piloted by remote control & I don't think the WTC towers were brought down by explosives.

9/11 does show the fallacy of not using racial profiling.

[Sol Invictus]

There could well be a coverup of government incompetence in not preventing the attacks.

The United States government planned to stage terror attacks on U.S soil years in advance.

Here (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf) is the declassified document from the Pentagon proving that. It is in PDF format. Read this for yourself and address that.

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I don't think the WTC towers were brought down by explosives.

How you explain the presence of explosive residue and military grade nano-thermite? How do you explain the collapse of WTC7?


9/11 does show the fallacy of not using racial profiling.

So you are defending the official version that Bin Laden was behind the attacks?

Come on, Æmeric. Don't you think, as a Tax paying, white American citizen, that you owe it to your fellow dead countrymen to look into this with a little bit more effort ?

[Æmeric]

I already discuss my opinion on what caused the collapse of the WTC towers in another thread but I'm too lethargic at the moment to look it up.

Bin Laden did attempt to bring down the towers once before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTC_bombing)

[Sol Invictus]

Bin Laden did attempt to bring down the towers once before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTC_bombing)

Where does it say there that Bin Laden was responsible for the first attack on the WTC?
I ask you again, are you defending the official version that Bin Laden was behind the attacks on 9/11 ?

[Cato]

I simply don't care at this point in time. 9/11 took place, regardless of who the ultimate culprit is. The event itself is now a part of the history books.

[Sol Invictus]

I simply don't care at this point in time. 9/11 took place, regardless of who the ultimate culprit is. The event itself is now a part of the history books.

I can't believe I just read that filth from a European man. You're lucky I am not there in the same room as you because I would go off on you like no tomorrow you sorry excuse for a man. I said state your opinions in this thread but I didn't think I would actually read this kind of shit.

[Psychonaut]

There do seem to be a rather large number of anomalous data, more so than should be present in something that was as heavily scrutinized as this. An official inquiry, or rather several concurrent independently conducted inquiries, should certainly take place to justify these points.

[Freomæg]

I simply don't care at this point in time. 9/11 took place, regardless of who the ultimate culprit is. The event itself is now a part of the history books.
I'm with Veritas on this (not about beating you up ;)). I'm amazed someone can be this callous about our history. 9/11 affected everything! Who committed the act, or was complicit in it, is of unimaginable importance. If it were proven, or even disproven, that the American government were secretly involved, everything that we know would be turned on its head over night. And above all else, history is a reflection of the future. Apathy on this matter is not admirable in my opinion.

[Lahtari]

9/11 affected everything! Who committed the act, or was complicit in it, is of unimaginable importance. If it were proven, or even disproven, that the American government were secretly involved, everything that we know would be turned on its head over night.

Regardless of who committed it, the bottom line is that it has, and is still being used as an excuse of a massive power grab, both in America and Europe. But even if it could be proven that the government wasn't involved but deliberately let it to happen could be a start of more positive development.

[Freomæg]

Regardless of who committed it, the bottom line is that it has, and is still being used as an excuse of a massive power grab, both in America and Europe.
Exactly. It is. But if the government were complicit in 9/11, then the world will know that all of the events which have occured because of it were unjusitifed. That's a war (essentially 2), hundreds of new laws and limitations on liberty, the deaths of thousands, if not millions. Not to mention what this would tell us about the honesty of our governments and media. If it were proven that 9/11 WAS committed by Muslims - that the official story is 100% true, then millions of us sceptics would have a renewed faith in our leaders and a greater resolve to oppose the growing Islamic Empire. Either way, the implications are enormous.

[Loddfafner]

Sometime later I will post my analysis of 9/11. On conspiracy theories in general, this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory) covers a lot of the reasons why I am skeptical of them.

For now, I just want to ask for clarification of one of the poll options:


No, I don't think the government is capable of covering it up

This is ambiguous. If you mean whether there are factions in government who have the capacity to consider and even attempt such a conspiracy, then my answer is possibly.

If you mean whether they have the capacity to pull it off, then my answer is highly unlikely.

[Rudy]

Five foreign intelligence agencies, and the CIA, warned that there was a plot to fly planes into buildings at least a month in advance. Then C. Rice went on camera and said they had no idea such a thing could happen.
http://www.nlpwessex.org/docs/gordonthomas.htm

On 9-11, the military was watching the radars for in excess of an hour, but never reacted.

The buildings remains have thermite dust all over them, and there was a pool of molten steel in the basement that lasted for several weeks.

At the minimum there was a non-reaction by the government.

[Rudy]

This link provides evidence that the Arab passports were fakes, and they do not know who was on the airplanes.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/framingarabs.html

[Cato]

I can't believe I just read that filth from a European man. You're lucky I am not there in the same room as you because I would go off on you like no tomorrow you sorry excuse for a man. I said state your opinions in this thread but I didn't think I would actually read this kind of shit.

I think you need to reconsider just how seriously you take posting on an internet forum. Given how belligerent you seem to be from your reply to my honest post, I might advise you to grow up a bit. I recall you having a fit of foul language in the chatbox once before, apparently induced because someone compared you to a conspiracy-monger or somesuch. Is this how you normally react when you hear or see something that you don't like? :confused:

I'm not going to spend my days wailing about the past or pointing fingers at some nebulous group of evildoers. Are you looking to be offended by someone who's got just as much right to his opinions as you do to yours? Call me a sorry excuse for a man, that's quite fine by me; being abused for one's opinions isn't going to kill me. Are you a God to look down on me or pass sentence on me? Why, you can't even control your own tendency to anger and you think to say that I'm the worse person because I hold an opinion that you don't like! :rolleyes2:

[Æmeric]

#1: Charlie Sheen is a blowhard lefty. The 9/11 conspiracy is just part of his anti-conservative agenda, because most people can't distinguish between neocons (Bush, Cheney) & true Conservatives. If Al Gore was president on September 11, 2001 lefties such as Sheen & Rosie O'Donnell wouldn't be spouting 9/11 conspiracy theories. These conspiracies are really anti-Bush & anti-Cheney. Has anyone accused the Clinton adminsitration of trying to bring down the WTC in 1993?

#2: If the 9/11 attacks were a government conspiracy, why wasn't UA Flight 93 able to reach its target, either the Capitol or White House? The remote pilot should have been able to override anything that was going on in the cockpit. Yet that plane crashed in Pennsylvania. Either brought down by a fight over control of the plane (official story) or maybe it was shot down. If it was shot down by the USAF & the White House didn't want to admit it, that would be a coverup.

[Cato]

I'm with Veritas on this (not about beating you up ;)). I'm amazed someone can be this callous about our history. 9/11 affected everything! Who committed the act, or was complicit in it, is of unimaginable importance. If it were proven, or even disproven, that the American government were secretly involved, everything that we know would be turned on its head over night. And above all else, history is a reflection of the future. Apathy on this matter is not admirable in my opinion.

Acceptance is not apathy. What do you want me to do, run around and treat 9/11 like the Jews treat the Holocaust? 9/11 is an event of history now, and I'm not going to work myself up into a frenzy over it. Let others froth at the mouth and get angry about it, let them fixate on it to the point of being obsessed. I was 24 when it happened; I'll be 33 within a month. When I was 24 I was angry and wanted revenge, that's all I cared about. I was happy when the bombs went off in Muslim countries and those idiots got their comeuppance. Looking back, I can't say that I liked being perpetually angry about something that I had no control over.

The world is constantly changing, people come and go and events and deeds are always new. What was important, world-altering news then is history now. I'm not going to react to an external event and have a meltdown. Was it idiot Muslims or a shady bunch of global conspirators? Why is anyone surprised by either option? Are evil people a new feature to life's events? If it's the Muslims, or really a specific group of Muslims, deal with them. If it's a shady bunch of global conspirators, deal with them. In the end, their evil deed is over and done with. However, the evildoers remain and, if left unpunished, will escape justice and might very well continue their plottings.

[SuuT]

:confused2:.....So the let me make sure I'm crystal, here: Z.O.G of the U.S. is in cahoots with Islamo-Facist secret societies that, in conjuction with one another, form a secretive N.W.O that is seeking to ensalve the population of globe and have managed to keep it out of mainstream press who's primary aim in the era of money-motivated news and sensationalistic 'journalism' is to print and report anything and everything that will, in turn, make money...?


I spent a significant amount of time re-viewing the posted videos some time back, and someone, somewhere therein, talked about the presence of Sulfur at the scence of 9/11 as the nail-in-the-coffin proof of a controlled demolition. Given that I am no engineer, I called one I know to get his thoughts. Turns out that Jet Fuel, relative to the total admixture of its composition, is very very high in Sulfur; further, the disintegration of Sulfur's molecular structure occurs at some wicked high Kelvin. In short, my friend told me that the cause for alarm would be if there were no Sulfur found at the scence: "It would be like examining a gun recently fired and finding no G.S.R", he said.

I don't question that a paradigm shift has occured in, particularly, the western world. I just think that all of this conspiratorial stuff defies, in particular, everything that we know about the nature of Power (via the Social Sciences, Philosophy, etc). Power is simply not that lest it not only vent, but make its venting ubiquitously obvious: Power has a rather insatiable ego. And while there are undoubtedly some sociopathically good liers in the world, the number who would be able to pull such large scale smoke-and-mirror acts off whilst mums the word can probably be counted on a single hand that has been run-over by a train.

[Sol Invictus]

On conspiracy theories in general, this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory) covers a lot of the reasons why I am skeptical of them.

Popular Mechanics, traitors, and other agents of the establishment use the Conspiracy Theory phrase as an ad hominem attack against people who really have nothing but questions about anomalies that the 'debunkers' don't have scientific data to back up, and simply do not want to address because we all know that the media, hollywood, and other outlets used to brainwash us use the word Conspiracy Theorist to make us all look like a bunch of crazies.

If you have at least a shred of decency, any kind of humanity, or even half a brain you would at least take a look at what questions we have in the 9/11 Truth Movement.

When I saw WE, I am talking about HUNDREDS of Police, Firefighters, and Paramedics WHO WERE THERE FIRST HAND, heard multiple explosions BEFORE and AFTER the collapses, including WTC7and people who actually have seen both sides of the coin and have questions.

This also includes numerous high-ranking military personnel who've kept true to their Oaths, as well as FBI, CIA agents at the highest level who have since been removed from their positions, resigned as a result of having their investigations being obstructed, and even have been murdered.

This is a massive attack by the establishment, and those who directly benefit from defending the official story, to derail any investigation and to steer people away from getting to the bottom of it.

I've never been so committed to something, so convinced that this was a cover up, that I've invested my career, my reputation, and my very social life into the 9/11 Truth Movement and will never rest until I, and others like us find justice for those killed not just in the attacks, but in two wars that have been somehow justified as a result of 9/11.

If you still think jetfuel somehow brought down the WTC, I would have to call you the conspiracy theorist and the nutjob, but to say that such a thing could happen simply flies in the face of what we know about how steel behaves when it is heated up.

Consider the following videos while you draw up your 'analysis':

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If you mean whether there are factions in government who have the capacity to consider and even attempt such a conspiracy, then my answer is possibly.


If you mean whether they have the capacity to pull it off, then my answer is highly unlikely.

Since you are obviously basing this statement purely on your opinion of all this, why don't clarify how it wouldn't be likely that a multi trillion dollar military and intelligence infrastructure doesn't have the capacity to bring down these buildings and cover up the evidence as best they can?

[Sol Invictus]

I think you need to reconsider just how seriously you take posting on an internet forum.

I think you are right, if you are any kind of measure of what kind of morons float around places like this who call themselves preservationists and standing up for what is right.



Is this how you normally react when you hear or see something that you don't like? :confused:

This is how I react to idiots.


I'm not going to spend my days wailing about the past or pointing fingers at some nebulous group of evildoers.

This is why you are an idiot, a coward, and a traitor to your Republic.

[Cato]

I think you are right, if you are any kind of measure of what kind of morons float around places like this who call themselves preservationists and standing up for what is right.

This is how I react to idiots.

This is why you are an idiot, a coward, and a traitor to your Republic.

Childish, clownish hyperbole.

Let me rebut with a borrowing from Marcus Aurelius:

Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I will meet with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness.

What, do you expect me to be angry like you always seem to be? You don't have that kind of power over me. :)

[Sol Invictus]

#1: Charlie Sheen is a blowhard lefty.
Yet Charlie Sheen appears on non-mainstream media outlets who are conservatives BUT are committed 9/11 Truthers. You've yet to do nothing to address anything that he's said, instead, resorting to Ad Hominem attacks.

Well done Æmeric. Just when I thought someone of your age and wisdom would have any knowledge of the world and the people in it, you come along and make statements like this and blow it completely out of the water.

How does your Left & Right Paradigm have anything to do with 9/11 Truth or any of the questions raised by anyone in it?


If the 9/11 attacks were a government conspiracy, why wasn't UA Flight 93 able to reach its target, either the Capitol or White House?


Either brought down by a fight over control of the plane (official story) or maybe it was shot down. If it was shot down by the USAF & the White House didn't want to admit it, that would be a coverup.

Alright. First of all I have not heard of any theories made by anyone in the 9/11 Truth Movement that UA 93 was controlled by remote, so I don't know where you are getting any of that. Cite your source of this blatant dis-information.

Here is some FACTS about UA 93. Whether or not you have the ability to comprehend it, or even care about what happened is no matter to me, but for the sake of defending my argument against your assaults, I will post it:

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[Sol Invictus]

Childish, clownish hyperbole.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

Fuck off and get your facts straight.

Better yet, grow a brain.

[Atlas]

Well revisionism on this event bores me. The plane were certainly hijacked, the crew killed and direction WTC to blow everyone up, apparently OBL didn't imagine the towers could actually fell on themselves. A good surprise for him, other than that war for the rest of the world.

It's the Pentagon plane some had questioned and I even got fooled by a very well done video proving it was a missile that hit Pentagon. The other plane crashed in the countryside there's nothing to be proven for the last one, maybe it was for the White House ?

[Cato]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

Fuck off and get your facts straight.

Better yet, grow a brain.

Although I bear you no ill-will (since it's obvious that anger is your guide rather than your ability to reason), your inability to tolerate a modest rebuke is most telling. :)

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Lahtari
Regardless of who committed it, the bottom line is that it has, and is still being used as an excuse of a massive power grab, both in America and Europe.

I agree.


But even if it could be proven that the government wasn't involved but deliberately let it to happen could be a start of more positive development.

I don’t personally share the opinion that the truth always will out; the truth can be killed buried or hidden.

However 9/11 isn’t the same as cutting the breaks on someone’s car or popping someone off with a rifle from a hill, that can be kept to a minimum of co-conspirators, to pull 9/11 off either as a planned attack by a government on it’s own state or by allowing an attack by government from an outside source on it’s own state would require the co-operation of a large number of agencies in the USA, not least the military at all levels, as well as outside agencies in other states. Personally I'm sceptical that it could be done, to much opportunity for someone to talk and would require a large number of people to be twisted enough to allow their own citizens to be butchered.

[Freomæg]

In the end, their evil deed is over and done with..
But it's not! The evil deed was not what happened those couple of hours, the morning of 9/11. Yes that was a tragedy, but the real evil is still happening in the name of 9/11. When people like myself and Veritas get worked up, it's not merely so that those 2996 or whatever people can have some justice, it's moreso to expose and identify the group of people who are have pulled the wool over the eyes of the world. It's part of a bigger picture. 9/11 just happens to be the greatest insight that this generation has been offered to the bigger picture and as such it's our flagship event, so to speak.

You treat this as you would some killer who murdered a child and then immediately killed himself. A great injustice yes, but In such a case, it would be okay to relinquish all frustration to the pages of history. There's nothing anyone can do and the evil is over and done. But what if that killer hadn't killed himself but had framed someone else? What if that killer went on to murder dozens of people in your community? Would you still want to forget the original incident, or would you want to re-analyse it to see if you could bring a killer-at-large to justice? See, the evil of 9/11 is not over and done.


However, the evildoers remain and, if left unpunished, will escape justice and might very well continue their plottings.
Exactly! And this is the primary reason that people still care about 9/11 - because it's the strongest evidence we have to bring the evildoers to justice. It's not 9/11 itself, it's what it represents.

I think the bottom line is that you find the official story regarding 9/11 to be likely, and I think that if you were sceptical of it you'd have cause to still care.

But each to their own. At least you're honest.

[Sol Invictus]

to pull 9/11 off either as a planned attack by a government on it’s own state or by allowing an attack by government from an outside source on it’s own state would require the co-operation of a large number of agencies in the USA, not least the military at all levels .... [your reason for skepticism: ] .... to be twisted enough to allow their own citizens to be butchered.

Research the various false-flag terror attacks that the criminal elements of the United States government have been on record, and proven to be complicit in, and ask yourself the reasonable and fair question about who benefits from such horrible acts.

Alex Jones' Terrorstorm film documents this incredibly well.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947&ei=Zv6nStaaM4fCrQKP-tyhAw&q=terrorstorm#

I would also like to point your attention to the proposals of the United States government to stage false flag terror attacks on U.S military and civilian personnel by a more recent regime.

If you still have doubts about this, here is MSNBC on the matter:

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If you still have doubts:

Operation Northwoods: A declassified document released from the Pentagon shows plans to stage false-flag terror attacks on U.S personnel to justify war with the criminal establishment's enemies, including plans to have remote controlled planes attack U.S personnel.

Read the document here in PDF (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf) format.

If you still have doubts:

Here is a video documenting the purposes behind the wargames, and military drills "Amalgam Virgo" and "Global Guardian".

This is definitive proof that the United States government lied and attempted to cover up prior knowledge of a 9/11 style attack on U.S soil.

If this won't convince you, I don't know what on Earth will.

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Personally I'm sceptical that it could be done, to much opportunity for someone to talk and would require a large number of people...

When you really think about it, it's not that huge of an operation for a small group of people, who have a vested interest, whether for money, greed or power, to pull this sort of thing off and remain silent about it, made especially easier if foreign elements were involved who's voices can be kept off-shore and out of the public eye, such as the Saudi Arabians, Pakistani Intelligence (ISI), and Mossad. All of which have been directly implicated in 9/11 Think about it.



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[Cato]

But it's not! The evil deed was not what happened those couple of hours, the morning of 9/11. Yes that was a tragedy, but the real evil is still happening in the name of 9/11. When people like myself and Veritas get worked up, it's not merely so that those 2996 or whatever people can have some justice, it's moreso to expose and identify the group of people who are have pulled the wool over the eyes of the world. It's part of a bigger picture. 9/11 just happens to be the greatest insight that this generation has been offered to the bigger picture and as such it's our flagship event, so to speak.

You treat this as you would some killer who murdered a child and then immediately killed himself. A great injustice yes, but In such a case, it would be okay to relinquish all frustration to the pages of history. There's nothing anyone can do and the evil is over and done. But what if that killer hadn't killed himself but had framed someone else? What if that killer went on to murder dozens of people in your community? Would you still want to forget the original incident, or would you want to re-analyse it to see if you could bring a killer-at-large to justice? See, the evil of 9/11 is not over and done.


Exactly! And this is the primary reason that people still care about 9/11 - because it's the strongest evidence we have to bring the evildoers to justice. It's not 9/11 itself, it's what it represents.

I think the bottom line is that you find the official story regarding 9/11 to be likely, and I think that if you were sceptical of it you'd have cause to still care.

But each to their own. At least you're honest.

The event itself and the aftermath of the event are two entirely different things. Dismissing the former as a done deal is not dismissing the pursuit of justice for those responsible for it- whomever they may be. Did I ever seem to imply that I wasn't interested in justice? Then there's the finger-pointing, name-calling, etc. Assuming that someone who simply says that 9/11 is a done deal and a historical event is traitorous or a subverter of the truth, or because that person doesn't buy into either side of the story (the official version that says idiot Muslims did 9/11 or the unofficial version that says that the Illuminati/Jews/NWO/ZOG did 9/11), is pretty simple-minded.

Bigger pictures.. Such as? In the day of the internet, everyone with a computer and an opinion can paint a picture of some gloomy dystopic future. Who does a person believe? The fellows over at Infowars or AboveTopSecret? The media spindoctors? Or, better yet for me, I trust my own intuition when it tells me: Yes something awful happened, it is over and done with, I couldn't have done anything about it and, no, I'm not going to turn it into my life's obsession to uncover the truth. Things happen as the Gods will- no amount of anger or blaming others or becoming enraged at the establishment can change that fact.

9/11 is a crime, crimes ought to be punished. Those responsible ought to be found out and punished appropriately- or perhaps more harshly so as to send a clear message to such people in the future. Who's to say. I, for one, feel that proper punishment has been meted out and the world now sees Islam for the ugly religion that it is. But, more deaths have resulted, which merely creates an example that violence creates violence. If it [the world's wake-up call] continues as it has, Islam, which I regard as the culprit of 9/11, will be outed more and more. If, as some say, the 9/11 events were premeditated by a political cabal, what use is it to get all disturbed? In this case, clearly the plot to defraud the American people and wreck out Constitutional freedoms was begun well before the actual fact and is merely another part to establish the new world order. Some reports indicate that this devlish plot to create an evil, satanic global government began during the reign of king Solomon! Or somesuch, but people paint these idiot politicians as if they're Dark Lords of the Sith who could teach Machiavelli a few lessons.

[Loddfafner]

I am aware of false flag operations and realize that they are a common method of warfare. I do not think that 9/11 is an example of one although the American government did take advantage of it to launch the Iraq war. The same administration also took advantage of it to grant prosecutors and intelligent services just about everything they wanted in their longstanding wish lists while Democrats were too fearful of seeming soft on terror to play their normal role in standing up for the integrity of legal procedures.

While I am categorically skeptical about anything that follows the pattern of conspiracy theories, and see the obsessiveness of their enthusiasts as more indicative of their state of mind than of the probability they are right, I am especially skeptical of the 9/11 arguments.

At the time of the attack, I was in contact with someone who was in the Pentagon. He sent me the photographs which included unambiguous airplane bits. Since assertions that it was not an airplane are such a prominent theme of the conspiracists, I tend towards skepticism about everything else they come up with. I also knew a close friend of one of the guys who heroically fought the hijackers and downed the flight in PA and know he was capable of what has been attributed to him.

I used to follow Islamic politics well enough to be reasonably confident that that the Oklahoma bombing was not them but that the trade center bombings were. My impressions do not count as evidence but do show where I am coming from here and also my longstanding independence from what the media tells me.

I look at major events as analogous to the crests of waves. They are more visible to observers than the waves themselves but it is the underlying movement of water that drives the crests, not vice versa. I do not agree with the so-called butterfly effect where some trivial detail can transform the big picture.

In the case of 9/11, I look for long term trends coming to a head. Large organizations both public and private tend to cut corners leading to overall deterioration and hollowness. There you get lax airport security as the officials involved just go through the motions. In bureaucratic organizations, individuals get less and less leeway to express their own judgment and apply common sense. The way policies are implemented, bureaucrats' incentives are to stick to their immediate job description. This accounts for the stunning obliviousness of the FBI to alQaida's preparations. Meanwhile the decay of governance in outlying areas such as Afghanistan gave room for AlQaida to plan such an attack.

These trends are not by themselves a sufficient explanation but they are better examples of where to look for explanations than the demonology of traditional populism.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a futile search for a bogeyman to use to rile up gullible voters. Politicians tried China for a while and a few other candidates. The 9/11 attack was vivid enough for them to find it. It was convenient, but that convenience is not evidence for a well-planned project to create that event.

G.W. Bush lacked the basic wisdom and knowledge a leader needs and this left the lower levels unchecked. Initially, they erred on the side of complacency in ignoring Clinton's parting advice about the magnitude of alQaida as a threat. After the attack, they erred on the side of overreaction and overreach. Like an earthquake expresses the movement of fault lines, the events of 9/11 expressed the movement of the decades-long tendency of the emergence of a surveillance state.

[Sol Invictus]

The event itself and the aftermath of the event are two entirely different things.

No, they are directly linked, and you have been conditioned to accept, by the modern propaganda machine, and even outright deny the tyrannical consequences have resulted from the event and the aftermath itself.


Dismissing the former as a done deal is not dismissing the pursuit of justice for those responsible for it- whomever they may be.


Did I ever seem to imply that I wasn't interested in justice?


, for one, feel that proper punishment has been meted out and the world now sees Islam for the ugly religion that it is.


Islam, which I regard as the culprit of 9/11, will be outed more and more.

I don't think I need to point out the contradictions which riddle 90 per cent of all this drivel.

We in the 9/11 Truth Movement, the Patriot Movement, and in the interest of the Preservation of Natural Law, such as our racial, cultural, and tribal identities, don't rely on lies and dis-information; straw-men, boogey-men, scapegoats to get our point across or justify our right to fight. You may like to do this. I don't.



Bigger pictures.. Such as? In the day of the internet, everyone with a computer and an opinion can paint a picture of some gloomy dystopic future.

Who does a person believe?

Yes, and it's a shame people use this opportunity, in the day of the internet, to spread false information and lies, which well-meaning people like you fall for and prevent you from waking up to what's actually going on. Something that the establishment is fighting tooth and nail to ensure happens to as many people as possible.



If, as some say, the 9/11 events were premeditated by a political cabal, what use is it to get all disturbed?

You may like to be lied to by your representitives, your leaders, and your overlords. I don't. And it disturbs me that there are people that have your kind of lazy, cowardly attitude on this whole thing.

The enemy has marched over the Rubicon, you have to decide, in the end, what side you are on.

[Sol Invictus]

I am aware of false flag operations and realize that they are a common method of warfare.


I do not think that 9/11 is an example of one although the American government did take advantage of it to launch the Iraq war.




While I am categorically skeptical about anything that follows the pattern of conspiracy theories, and see the obsessiveness of their enthusiasts as more indicative of their state of mind than of the probability they are right, I am especially skeptical of the 9/11 arguments.

What "conspiracy theories" are you referring to, exactly? That it's impossible for a building like the world trade centre to be collapsed from burning jetfuel at free-fall speeds, falling into the path of most resistance?

Is the Laws of Inertia a conspiracy theory too?


I also knew a close friend of one of the guys who heroically fought the hijackers and downed the flight in PA and know he was capable of what has been attributed to him.

A dog has the ability to be heroic too. I guess that's also a conspiracy theory as well though.. :rolleyes:




I do not agree with the so-called butterfly effect where some trivial detail can transform the big picture.

Which trivial detail are you referring to?


the stunning obliviousness of the FBI to alQaida's preparations. Meanwhile the decay of governance in outlying areas such as Afghanistan gave room for AlQaida to plan such an attack.

Where have you been the last 8 years? I hope you haven't been living in a tree or something, because the FBI knew full well what was going to happen. Just because you don't want to believe that doesn't mean it ain't going on buddy.


The 9/11 attack was vivid enough for them to find it. It was convenient, but that convenience is not evidence for a well-planned project to create that event.

How do you explain Amalgam Virgo? Global Guardian? Vigilant Guardian? Northern Guardian etc etc etc ?? How do you explain the wargames that were going on, practicing the exact same scenarios during and prior to 9/11 which implicated the entire roster provided to us of the Hijackers who carried out 9/11?If this wasn't a project laid out on paper prior to the attacks then I must be going blind. Or maybe that's just you.



G.W. Bush lacked the basic wisdom and knowledge a leader needs and this left the lower levels unchecked.

G.W. Bush wasn't calling the shots on 9/11 and he wasn't in charge of executing every single military movement up to and on the day of 9/11.

However, 60 per cent of the 9/11 Commission members will tell you straight up that Bush and Cheney had conveyed the orders to shoot down the Hijacked planes. Namely, flight 93 which was the aircraft in question at the hearings.



Like an earthquake expresses the movement of fault lines, the events of 9/11 expressed the movement of the decades-long tendency of the emergence of a surveillance state.

Exactly. This is but one of the outcomes the state has benefited from in 9/11. This is a step closer in removing any opposition to their power. Namely those labelled as Right-Wing "extremists" and "terrorists" (Yes, that's you and me..and most everyone else here) as enemies of the state. The NEW, and improved Al Qaeda. And his skin is white.

[Ulf]

The towers came down because of planes, there was no controlled demolition or thermite. WTC 7 was poorly engineered and not meant to withstand much.

As for the back story, I believe there is more we need to know about why this was allowed to happen.

[Sol Invictus]

The towers came down because of planes, there was no controlled demolition or thermite.

Ah ok, Ulf. So I guess your opinion of this trumps the thousands of Architechts and Engineers, as well as students in A&E. Hundreds of eye-witness accounts of flashes, and explosions at the base of the towers as well as the under-infrastructure that preceeded the collapse of the upper sections of the towers?

The pyroclastic dust clouds that billowed out into the streets of lower Manhatten? The pool of lava that the supposed jet-fuel created, which Police, Firemen, and Paramedics discovered in the obliterated wreckage of the towers which was so hot, it was picked up from satelites in outer-space?

Ok Gotcha.



WTC 7 was poorly engineered and not meant to withstand much.

Yes, because we all know that modern 30+ floor buildings built in the past few decades were so poorly designed that they collapse in 6 seconds completely into it's own footprint from fires on two floors.


As for the back story, I believe there is more we need to know about why this was allowed to happen.

I'm with you on that one.

[Mrs Ulf]

Or maybe the distraction was the towers, you spend all this time figuring this mystery out while all the true lies slip under the radar.

[Cato]

No, they are directly linked, and you have been conditioned to accept, by the modern propaganda machine, and even outright deny the tyrannical consequences have resulted from the event and the aftermath itself.

I don't think I need to point out the contradictions which riddle 90 per cent of all this drivel.

We in the 9/11 Truth Movement, the Patriot Movement, and in the interest of the Preservation of Natural Law/[b], such as our racial, cultural, and tribal identities, don't rely on lies and dis-information; straw-men, boogey-men, scapegoats to get our point across or justify our right to fight. You may like to do this. I don't.

Yes, and it's a shame people use this opportunity, in the day of the internet, to spread false information and lies, which [b]well-meaning people like you fall for and prevent you from waking up to what's actually going on. Something that the establishment is fighting tooth and nail to ensure happens to as many people as possible.

You may like to be lied to by your representitives, your leaders, and your overlords. I don't. And it disturbs me that there are people that have your kind of lazy, cowardly attitude on this whole thing.

The enemy has marched over the Rubicon, you have to decide, in the end, what side you are on.

What should disturb you more is that you yourself disturbed by what I happen to believe. That's where you fall into a trap of your own devising- you become the slave of someone else's opinions and beliefs and activities, and your entire life adjusts accordingly.

[Sol Invictus]

Or maybe the distraction was the towers, you spend all this time figuring this mystery out while all the true lies slip under the radar.

Figuring out this 'mystery' isn't what takes up all this time.

It's not hard at all to figure out, actually.

Some common sense and a little bit of scientific knowledge will provide you with all the information you need to equip your mind to fight against the psychological warfare our enemies have waged on us.

But if you don't want to fight to begin with; if you are perfectly happy with your beer in the fridge, your ball-games, your porn, your internet etc etc then it doesn't matter anyway. It's all for naught.

These people are already slaves to the blood-thirsty enemy. No amount of talking, no amount of facts will save them.

[Ulf]

Thermite has a high luminosity, explosives would blow out windows. Is it so hard to believe 10-20 floors collapsing downward would, say, continue collapsing downward. In a controlled demolition the whole thing gives out at once. I watched while practically each floor was taken out one by one.

[Mrs Ulf]

Figuring out this 'mystery' isn't what takes up all this time.

It's not hard at all to figure out, actually.

Some common sense and a little bit of scientific knowledge will provide you with all the information you need to equip your mind to fight against the psychological warfare our enemies have waged on us.

But if you don't want to fight to begin with; if you are perfectly happy with your beer in the fridge, your ball-games, your porn, your internet etc etc then it doesn't matter anyway. It's all for naught.

These people are already slaves to the blood-thirsty enemy. No amount of talking, no amount of facts will save them.

VA you can pretend like your the only one who cares. I like you, but don't give me this pretentious shit.

I'm more than willing to fight for a good cause. I'm just concerned that were still talking about this. I will not fight about something that has already been beaten to death.

You will always have your opinion but I was just saying there are a lot more important things that need to be addressed.

[Sol Invictus]

Thermite has a high luminosity,

And has a high Iron-Oxide content as well, which is not present in construction of the WTC complex, but was certainly present in the obliterated dust-clouds that was the wreckage of the WTC.



explosives would blow out windows.

Which is exactly what it did in the lobbies of both WTC towers. Eyewitnesses will tell you this and set you straight my friend. They will also tell you that the walls were blown out in the "B" levels of the WTC prior to the collapse. I've provided this information backed up by eyewitness accounts of workers and first responders in this thread already. You clearly did not bother.


Is it so hard to believe 10-20 floors collapsing downward would, say, continue collapsing downward.

Yes it would, as a matter of fact. There is no explanation for the towers to fall into itself at free-fall speeds, into the path of most resistance. The Laws of Inertia, again, contradict this conspiracy theory.

What you would see, in the instance of a structural failure, as the report would have us believe, is not a free-fall speed collapse and then a complete obliteration of the building itself, but you would see the steel slowly twist off, away from the base of the tower, and falling over into the street in a large mass of steel. The core columns could not possibly fail completely from burning jetfuel. It's an insult to the intelligence of any architect who doesn't have a vested interest in defending this absurd claim.


In a controlled demolition the whole thing gives out at once. I watched while practically each floor was taken out one by one.

In a controlled demolition, you will see the building's floors give out one-by-one-by-one, and will pulverize and eject building materials laterally which is exactly what happened. You will see it fall at free-fall speeds.

If you dropped a ball from the top of the WTC Twin Towers, it would fall to the ground in roughly 8-10 seconds.

Are you telling me you believe that a structural collapse would result in the exact same way?

Surely not.

[Ulf]

But if you don't want to fight to begin with; if you are perfectly happy with your beer in the fridge, your ball-games, your porn, your internet etc etc then it doesn't matter anyway. It's all for naught.

These people are already slaves to the blood-thirsty enemy. No amount of talking, no amount of facts will save them.

This type of talk is why I don't reply to these conspiracy theory threads much. If I do not agree with you I am the oft mentioned, mental midget, in search of porn and a good football game. This type of talk drives people on the fence away from you. In fact since reading a lot of these conspiracy theories, I am starting to be inclined to not caring because it comes down to a dumb shouting match between the two camps.

So yea, I'm gonna sit back, watch some porn and not care anymore. I would have been there with ya, but I am, after all, a mental midget for not conforming to your opinion.

[Skandi]

And has a high Iron-Oxide content as well, which is not present in construction of the WTC complex, but was certainly present in the obliterated dust-clouds that was the wreckage of the WTC.



This one I will not buy, the WTC's were of a steel construction, when you burn steel you get iron oxide. So there was a huge amount of iron oxide in the construction.

Oh and thermite DOES NOT produce Iron oxide but straight iron

[Loddfafner]

I am surprised there aren't more parodies of conspiracy theories. Has anyone read Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault%27s_pendulum)? In this lengthy novel, characters who try to come up with such a parody stumble into the real thing.

Never mind. parody is redundant (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=536) these days.

[Loddfafner]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories) makes for interesting reading on this matter, although I found the "talk" pages more entertaining.

[Freomæg]

Did I ever seem to imply that I wasn't interested in justice?
[...]
9/11 is a crime, crimes ought to be punished. Those responsible ought to be found out and punished appropriately-
Yes and in order to punish the right person and to prevent them from committing further acts, we have to look at the evidence. Does it not make sense to analyse the strongest bit of evidence we have? I fear I was not able to get my previous point across to you because you've demonstrated that you agree with it whilst still arguing it. 9/11 is the evidence we need, nothing more. And as such, it must be scrutinised. The only you're reason you want to forget it is because you believe the official story. Now that's fine, but just say that, rather than giving the impression that you don't care whether it was the government or the terrorists who did it. You only don't care because you believe it was the terrorists who did it and that's a viewpoint less worthy of criticism.



You will always have your opinion but I was just saying there are a lot more important things that need to be addressed.
Yes and most of them are directly or indirectly a result of 9/11, or the group I believe to be responsible for 9/11. All of our woes are far more interlinked than most people realise. I find this extremely frustrating because the very 'racial tragedy' we discuss so openly on the Apricity is directly related to the truth about 9/11, the economic collapse... even 'global warming'. And if only I could make everyone realise this we'd have a better chance of surviving it all.

[Cato]

People who commit evil deeds are not a new fixture in life and, even if I believe that the stupid Muslims did it, it still doesn't detract from the fact that I wouldn't be surprised if it was Party B instead of Party A. Why? Power-hungry, misguided and downright evil people are always out to get what they regard as their own and to take their enemies out. The simplest explanation is usually correct, and foolish people can say what they like. However I don't listen to the angry diatribes of fools who like to think I live in a sugar-coated land of make believe. Namecalling only exposes the namecallers as ridiculous and pompous.

I care, but not to the point of wailing about the past. What use is that? Do I say to myself that this event of the past is an ever-present fixture in my mind, to the point of being perpetually perturbed about it? I made the comparison that 9/11 is treated by some as the Jews treat the Holocaust- I think it's ridiculous to browbeat and finger-point at people who view both 9/11 and the Holocaust as horrible events that are also historical events. We know who did the Holocaust; they were punished and are dead. 9/11's originators are either known or are unknown; if they are known they should have proper vengeance taken against them. If not, then they ought to be discovered and destroyed. I may, as you say follow the official story, but that doesn't mean I'm correct- it's simply a matter of opinion. I've reasonably come to the conclusion that it was the stupid terrorists and I will not justify myself any further in that regard. Why is it so hard to accept the the idea Bushco was complacent and dragging its feet in regards to al-Qaeda? Why do Muslims need an excuse to attack their perceived enemies? They do it all of the time. But, some say this is simply a part of the plot to scapegoat them. Very well then, but this also suggests that the true parties behind 9/11 are genius masterminds and globalists who can hoodwink the entire world- except people like Alex Jones et al. Of course. There's always going to be people who have the real knowledge of events in the world. The rest of us are just nitwits who can't put 2 and 2 together.

[Sol Invictus]

Pentagon cab driver admits involvement in "planned" event.

Cab driver Lloyde England admitted that the 9/11 operation was a "planned" event by the people with "all the money" and that he was involved. He tried shifting his position on the highway so it would make sense with the north side evidence proving the plane did not hit the light poles. But that is a proven deliberate lie since he had let it slip only minutes prior (without knowing he was being recorded) that he knew he was on the bridge, directly on the south side path. Yet when the camera started, he dogmatically maintained he was on the north side even when presented with photographs proving he was on the bridge.

See the complete interviews with Lloyde here: http://www.thepentacon.com/eyeofthestorm.htm

Citizen Investigation Team offers this compilation of independent verifiable evidence exposing the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon as a psychological black operation of deception. Consider this a non-violent call to action as everyone is encouraged to copy and distribute this conclusive evidence to media, political, and authority figures while first requesting, and then demanding a response. Inaction by authorities and media to this information amounts to a crime of obstruction of justice so it's time they are held accountable. This is particularly the case as more innocents are slaughtered and additional billions of dollars are spent on a fraudulent "war on terror" perpetuated under any other name. Please visit CitizenInvestigationTeam.com for full resources and a step-by-step strategy as to how you can take action on this critical life or death information.

Video here of Lloyd's confession:

http://vimeo.com/4414453

[Liffrea]

I guess I’m easier with going with things I do know about, like being treated as a second class citizen in my own country and having my rights taken away because of things I haven’t done or having family members sent to fight wars for other people.

I’m open minded about 9/11 and I certainly have no trust of government in most things.

A cover up to hide incompetence and criminal negligence, I can believe that, wouldn’t be the first time government has fouled up due to idiotic policies and incompetents who owe their position to patronage rather than ability.

[Cato]

Politicians are always trying to cover up their idiocy and ineptitude.

[Sol Invictus]

_WSGwnz7XpY

[Rudy]

There are too many good quotes in these articles for me to list them all.

“With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site,” concludes Col. George Nelson, an aircraft accident investigator with the US Air Force, “any unbiased, rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon.”
http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-09-11/911-reason-why-911.html
The nine foot tall engines of a 757 are made from titanium, but they left no trace on the Pentagon wall.

Part I
Vertical steel beams cannot collapse at free fall speed without help.

This inner supporting section, which measured an area of 87 by 135 feet (27 by 41 m), was composed of 47 steel columns packed in cement that ran the entire length of the structures. If left untouched, the towers were constructed to “outlive the pyramids,” as one engineer told me.

“We designed the buildings to resist the impact of one or more airliners,” said Frank De Martini, WTC construction manager.

“pools of molten metal” in the remains of the World Trade Center. In fact, the presence of these intensely hot pockets hampered the cleanup efforts until December 20 – over three months after the collapses!
http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-09-10/911-attack-reasons-towers.html


Picture of an angle cut beam from the Trade Towers. It also shows molten steel.(thermite)
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/berthold_2008/williams_dees.jpg


The FBI was tracking Atta, but pulled people off his trail.
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/10/informant-says-fbi-threw-away-chance-to-catch-alleged-911-plotter/

[Ulf]

http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/berthold_2008/williams_dees.jpg


Where's the original? How do I know that's from the WTC?

[Rudy]

The photo is from Dees, the picture maker that Rense usually uses. It is good to question.
http://www.deesillustration.com/

Not sure why he would use a steel beam from another building. It if was, I would put in a quick retraction.
I suppose someone could also say it was an angle cut after the collapse, but then what about the melting around the cut?

Even the articles I linked to from RussiaToday use the word "probably".

[Liffrea]

Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?

The last time we heard a squeak from him was on June 3 this year.
The world's most notorious terrorist outsmarted America by releasing a menacing message as

Air Force One touched down on Saudi Arabian soil at the start of Barack Obama's first and much vaunted Middle East tour.

Even before the new President alighted at Riyadh airport to shake hands with Prince Abdullah, Bin Laden's words were being aired on TV, radio and the internet across every continent.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212851/Has-Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-seven-years--U-S-Britain-covering-continue-war-terror.html#ixzz0QthhqDJG

[Rudy]

Many authority figures around the world think that Bin Laden is probably dead.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.html

[Rudy]

This link lists 11 examples of possible Arab involvement in 9-11.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/arabsstupid.php


"If a nation expects to be both ignorant and free...it expects what never was and never will be."
Thomas Jefferson.

[Ulf]

f-V1bXs_5Io

[Ulf]

I'd just like to inquire.

Plane hits World Trade Center's North Tower at 8:46 a.m impacting between the 93rd and 99th floors.

Seventeen minutes later, plane crashed into the South Tower's southern facade between the 77th and 85th floors.

At 9:59 a.m., the south tower collapsed, 56 minutes after being struck

The north tower collapsed at 10:28 a.m., after burning for 102 minutes.

The plane that struck the South Tower has more weight bearing down on the impacted area and collapses first. The North Tower has less weight bearing down on the impacted area and collapses later, despite burning longer.

Though, I guess this would just mean that they detonated the South Tower first in order to throw me off.

[Ulf]

At 5:20 p.m. EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center collapsed.

The building didn't collapse solely because of fire, it collapsed because of 1. Fire and 2. 100+ story buildings just fell near it throwing large debris on it and damaging critical supports.

[Rudy]

I have been having this same thought lately.


The leaders of the movement are highly qualified professionals, such as demolition experts, physicists, structural architects, engineers, pilots, and former high officials in the government. Unlike their critics parroting the government’s line, they know what they are talking about.
...
...access to thermite is strictly controlled and NO ONE except the US military and possibly Israel has access to nano-thermite. Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23498.htm

Many architects think that building free fall, molten steel, and the presence of thermite calls for a re-investigation.

Nano-thermite particle sizes are 1,000 times smaller than a human hair. This material is not made in a cave in Afghanistan.

These scientists found not just a smoking gun, but a loaded gun. http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.commentview&comment_id=158

[Thorum]

The towers came down because of planes, there was no controlled demolition or thermite. WTC 7 was poorly engineered and not meant to withstand much.

As for the back story, I believe there is more we need to know about why this was allowed to happen.

Thanks Ulfee, you state the truth. Va and others like him like Muslims and hate the USA...

[Guapo]

Thanks Ulfee, you state the truth. Va and others like him like Muslims and hate the USA...

You don't necessarily have to like Muslims if you hate the US government.

[CommonSense]

To me personally the strangest thing is how the attacks were executed so successfully. There was literally nobody trying to stop the terrorists from hijacking the planes and later crashing them into the buildings. I don't believe all of the mighty intelligence agencies were unaware of what's going on.