Which European groups cluster with North Caucasus?

[Hajdu]

From some anecdotal evidence mostly, it appears to me that some Hungarians may show a bigger "West Asian" / North Caucasus component than Western Europeans. Are populations like Adyghe / Dagestan / Lezgin acting as proxies for a Khazar influence in both cases? If so, what other nationalities show this?


And - randomly by not unrelated - what ethnicity were the Assyrians in fact? Hurrian?

[gregorius]

assyrians werent hurrians, but mesopotamians/arrameans.
As for North caucasians they dont cluster with european groups as far as i know, They are a distinctive group.

[Insuperable]

Why should North Caucasians have something to do with it if you are comparing them to Western Europeans? How much bigger do you have in mind?

[Szegedist]

From some anecdotal evidence mostly, it appears to me that some Hungarians may show a bigger "West Asian" / North Caucasus component than Western Europeans. Are populations like Adyghe / Dagestan / Lezgin acting as proxies for a Khazar influence in both cases? If so, what other nationalities show this?


And - randomly by not unrelated - what ethnicity were the Assyrians in fact? Hurrian?

1) For a time, Hungarians lived near the Caucasus

2) Some Caucasian Iranic Tribes, the Jassics (distantly related to modern day Ossetians) settled in Hungary, and were assimilated
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jassic_people

3) Hungarian tribes were part of the Khazar Empire, and later ally of the Khazar empire, so some links might exist.


In 1569, Andrzej Taranowski, a diplomat of the Polish king Sigismund II Augustus, was returning from Constantinople, heading towards Astrakhan. In his journal he wrote:

"On the night of October 7th we made camp amongst the gravemounds of the Magyars. Even today there are many ruins of buildings to be found, the ruins of the temples of the pagan Magyars... their territory comes to an end at the Sasyk River. As we passed through their former territory we saw ruins of fortifications every day, the ruins of the former Magyar temples. The steppe contains Magyar grave mounds that are abundant in treasures, Fortifications made of enormous stones that are now covered in moss are in abundance. The last inhabitants of this land were Christians, most likely the Cherkes."


In the 8th century, the Savard Hungarians, one section of the Hungarian people, broke off and moved to the country south of the Caucasus. Contemporary Byzantine source reports that around the mid- tenth century the Hungarians maintained contact with the Savard Hungarians who remained in Eastern Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/FriarJulianJourney.png



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/Kummagyaria.png
Kummagyaria, According to Laszlo Bendefy

Kummagyaria
According to theory of Kummagyaria, before the Mongol invasion of Europe, the Hungarians who remained in Eastern Europe and did not participate in the Hungarian conquest possessed a country northwards from Caucasus. According to Laszlo Bendefy, the approximate location of Kummagyaria is the riparian area of the Kuma River, Southern Russia.
Papal bulls by Popes Innocent IV in 1253, Alexander IV in 1258 and Michael IV in 1288 and 1291 made reference to Kummagyaria, (spelled as Cummageria).A bull proclaimed by Pope John XXII in 1329 is addressed to Gyeretyán, who was the then chieftain of Kummagyaria.
Odorico Raynaldi wrote a commentary on the occasion of the bull’s proclamation:


"The Pope was informed of the Asian Magyars’, the Malkaites’, and the Alans’ firm commitment to the one true religion. These nations, despite being surrounded by a net of godless, superstitious rites, have maintained their immaculate belief in their faith. A highlight in this regard is Jeretany, the descendant of royal Magyar blood. Since he requested a Catholic emmissary from the Holy See, the Pope sent the bishop of Samarkand to him, in order to strengthen their faith, and to implore the religious men among them to remain steadfast."

The bull contained the following text:

"Greetings to our dear children, to Jeretany and all Christian Magyars, Malkaites & Alans! It has caused us rather great and natural happiness, that the Most Esteemed Creator, whose summons is constant and spreads to the entire world, to all those whom He chooses to discover His mercifulness, and for his only Son, with his love that is indescribable in words that constantly envelopes every single Christian family, embraces you, who have been touched by the true faith, the teaching of the Scriptures and the light of the Apostolic Church, amongst those of the Eastern parts of the world who are yet to accept the graces of Christianity."
Avignon, October 3rd of the 14th year

[Hajdu]

Thanks Huszar, I have found similar information after extensive research. all these locations match some of my odd DNA Tribes results, though it seems many Western Hungarians don't get results much different from Slovaks etc. I however show strong population matches with Szekler and Csango.

[Hajdu]

Your images also present this info the best way I've ever seen it.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

From some anecdotal evidence mostly, it appears to me that some Hungarians may show a bigger "West Asian" / North Caucasus component than Western Europeans. Are populations like Adyghe / Dagestan / Lezgin acting as proxies for a Khazar influence in both cases? If so, what other nationalities show this?


And - randomly by not unrelated - what ethnicity were the Assyrians in fact? Hurrian?

Assyrians are Mesopotamians, other closely related Mesopotamian ethnicities are Iraqi Mandaeans, Iraqi Jews and Iranian Jews. Median points for various West Asian populations, based on Eurogenes SPA.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/spa_eurogenes_semitic_speaking.jpg

[RussiaPrussia]

south Caucasians?

[Hajdu]

Do you consider Assyrian to be a non-Semitic branch of a Southwest Asian family a later branch of which became Semites? If so, what was the pre-Semitic language of Assyrians?

[MarkyMark]

assyrians werent hurrians, but mesopotamians/arrameans.
As for North caucasians they dont cluster with european groups as far as i know, They are a distinctive group.

Assyrians were not Hurrians but that is not exactly accurate.

First lets take a look at the map here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/350px-Amarnamap.png

Hanigalbat, another name for the Mittani Hurrian kingdom resides inbetween Arameans and Assyrians and eventually became absorbed in to them. I can talk for a long time about this, I don't know where exactly to start though but here is a quote from some people from ABF(EliasAlucard):




Like Humanist says, the genetic data suggests a Caucasus origin of the ancient Assyrians. For example, Dagestanis have Y-DNA J1c3, as well as J1, and J1c3 branched off from J1. Autosomally, there's not much difference between Armenians and Assyrians, which again, points to the Caucasus. Armenians also have J1.

Babylonian (i.e., Akkadian and Sumerian) was undoubtedly the most important influence in Assyria (Assyria was basically an extension of Babylonia; similar to the UK and the USA), both demographically and culturally, especially after Sargon of Akkad conquered Assyria (who was for some ironic reason more popular in Assyria than in Babylonia), although mythic legend has it that Sargon was originally from north Mesopotamia.

Even if the Assyrians were Babylonians who settled in the north, the Babylonians were originally from the north anyway, so we're talking about back migrations.



So, basically the Assyrians were descendants of proto-Armenians, just as the Hurrians were, however the Assyrians had semitic influence form other Mesopotamians and adopted a semitic language, unlike the Proto-Armenians who stayed in the homeland of North-East Anatolia and became the modern day Armenians who adopted an IE language. And for clarification the Proto-Armenians were non-IE, non-Semitic Caucasians.

[StonyArabia]

From some anecdotal evidence mostly, it appears to me that some Hungarians may show a bigger "West Asian" / North Caucasus component than Western Europeans. Are populations like Adyghe / Dagestan / Lezgin acting as proxies for a Khazar influence in both cases? If so, what other nationalities show this?


And - randomly by not unrelated - what ethnicity were the Assyrians in fact? Hurrian?

Well the interaction between North Kavkazians and Eastern Europeans have been long and ancient. The Adyghe and Balkar would be good case proxies for the ancient Khazars, because they both have a good amount of Asian genetics. The Lezgins are more Anatolian in origins rather than North Caucasian. The Khazar influence certainly exists in Hungary, Ukraine and the remains of the Khazar, after the empire faded away. I's also important to note that the Khazars were said to have spawned several people after the empire has faded away. Despite the Khazars speaking an Oghuric Turkic tongue, that's related to Chuvash, they were pretty much Kavkazians. Some groups that are said to be descendants of the Khazars include Ashkenazi Jews, Cossacks, Circassian/Adyghe, Balkars, and some Hungarians. The most likely answer all these groups have some Khazar blood in them. Balkars and Adyghe don't differ much genetically, however Cossacks are East Slavs with Kavkazian affinity.

Assyrians are Mesopotamian not Caucasian. There ancestry would consist of several Aramaic speaking groups, and eventually adopting Christianity. Of course they would have some Anatolian ancestry from their neighbours, because the Nestorian Assyrians seem to be very genetically close to Armenians. Well those who adopted the Roman Catholic faith in recent times and have been called Chaldeans show strong links to Levantines but still both groups are very genetically closely related to one another.

[MarkyMark]

Assyrians are Mesopotamian not Caucasian. There ancestry would consist of several Aramaic speaking groups, and eventually adopting Christianity. Of course they would have some Anatolian ancestry from their neighbours, because the Nestorian Assyrians seem to be very genetically close to Armenians. Well those who adopted the Roman Catholic faith in recent times and have been called Chaldeans show strong links to Levantines but still both groups are very genetically closely related to one another.

The theory I spoke of said that Assyrians were, if you go far back enough, Eastern anatolians of Proto-Armenian stock. How else do you explain the strong similarities in mt-Dna between Assyrians and Armenians? Or the distance between other Semites such as Arabs and Assyrians on a genetic plot? The gap between Assyrians and other semites is big. Either way, whether this is correct or not, the hurrians were absorbed into Assyrians and Arameans. It is of my personal belief that the original naming of Syria can be attributed to the Hurrians and that they mixed with the Arameans and Assyrians to form what is now the christian population of Syria.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

The theory I spoke of said that Assyrians were, if you go far back enough, Eastern anatolians of Proto-Armenian stock. How else do you explain the strong similarities in mt-Dna between Assyrians and Armenians? Or the distance between other Semites such as Arabs and Assyrians on a genetic plot? The gap between Assyrians and other semites is big. Either way, whether this is correct or not, the hurrians were absorbed into Assyrians and Arameans. It is of my personal belief that the original naming of Syria can be attributed to the Hurrians and that they mixed with the Arameans and Assyrians to form what is now the christian population of Syria.

There are both similarities and differences between Assyrians and Armenians, this extends even towards haplogroup diversity. From the Fernandes et al. 2012 paper. The MDS plot below, combines the frequencies of the I, N, W, and X mtDNA Haplogroups from the Fernandes et al. 2012 paper for several Semitic-speaking populations of the Middle East, with data collected from Family Tree DNA, 23andMe and possibly other sources of Assyrian mtDNA. As for our apparent "greater" genetic dissimilarity with other Semitic-speaking populations, in contrast to Armenians, this is not true at all. Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews are two Semitic-speaking populations, who we are more closely related to than Armenians.

Assyrians and Jordanians cluster closely together (based on mtDNA frequencies of the above mentioend haplogroups).

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/mds_fernandes_asy.jpg

Assyrian mtDNA Haplogroup data as of May 1st, 2013 based 86 Assyrians. Most of whom, are "Nestorian" Assyrians.

26.7% H
25.6% U
18.6% J
14.0% HV
8.1% T
2.3% K
1.2% I
1.2% N
1.2% W
1.2% X

The Hurrians certainly contributed to our gene pool, however, they are not our only ancestors. I don't know if you've been following Humanist's posts as much as I have. But I'll quote him here, this is the basic outline, based on all data gathered so far about the ethnogenesis of the Assyrians.

"During the Neo-Assyrian era, the Assyrian Heartland receives a large number of deportees from S Iran and Babylonia. Other sources of incoming deportees include the Levant and Anatolia.

~612 BCE The Assyrian Empire comes to an end. Most of its major centers are destroyed. There is continuity in some parts. However, Assyria as it existed is no more. The base of power transfers to the south (Babylon) and east (Persia).

539 BCE Persian domination over Mesopotamia begins.

331 BCE Greco-Macedonian domination over Mesopotamia begins.

Persian domination returns with the Parthians and remains for the greater part of the period through to the Arabo-Islamic conquests of the 7th century CE.

During the early Christian era Mesopotamia receives Greek-speaking Christian deportees from the west.

Lakhmid migrations to the north.

~ 400 CE Church of the East's center becomes Seleucia-Ctesiphon.

762 CE Baghdad becomes the Abbasid capital.

That is my basic outline through the 1st millennium CE. That, plus the other data I have referred to in this thread, is why I say that I may be, in significant part a mix of southern Mesopotamians, Iranians, and Greco-Macedonians/Anatolians. And, why I believe, linguistically, it would make sense to look more to Akkadian, Persian, and Greek for influences on the language that is Sureth."

I should also note, that the majority of samples of Assyrians used are "Nestorian" Assyrians. The reason I say this, is because there are some differences between Syriac Orthodox Assyrians, and Chaldean Assyrians. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroup diversity, Syriacs seem to be overwhelmingly J-P58 and E1b1b. Unlike Nestorians, who are mostly J1* and R1b.

This trend is also repeated in autosomal DNA tests, although there are only two Syriac Orthodox Assyrians and one Chaldean Catholic Assyrian. They both seem to differ in having slightly less West Asian, more Mediterranean and more Southwest Asian. Syriac Orthodox Assyrians in particular, have a pretty substantial "Levantine" pull. So much so, that individually, they are much closer to Iraqi Jews, Mandaeans and Levantine Arabs than Nestorians are. Chaldean Catholics are in the middle.

[MarkyMark]

There are both similarities and differences between Assyrians and Armenians, this extends even towards haplogroup diversity. From the Fernandes et al. 2012 paper. The MDS plot below, combines the frequencies of the I, N, W, and X mtDNA Haplogroups from the Fernandes et al. 2012 paper for several Semitic-speaking populations of the Middle East, with data collected from Family Tree DNA, 23andMe and possibly other sources of Assyrian mtDNA. As for our apparent "greater" genetic dissimilarity with other Semitic-speaking populations, in contrast to Armenians, this is not true at all. Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews are two Semitic-speaking populations, who we are more closely related to than Armenians.

Assyrians and Jordanians cluster closely together (based on mtDNA frequencies of the above mentioend haplogroups).

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/mds_fernandes_asy.jpg

Assyrian mtDNA Haplogroup data as of May 1st, 2013 based 86 Assyrians. Most of whom, are "Nestorian" Assyrians.

26.7% H
25.6% U
18.6% J
14.0% HV
8.1% T
2.3% K
1.2% I
1.2% N
1.2% W
1.2% X

The Hurrians certainly contributed to our gene pool, however, they are not our only ancestors. I don't know if you've been following Humanist's posts as much as I have. But I'll quote him here, this is the basic outline, based on all data gathered so far about the ethnogenesis of the Assyrians.

"During the Neo-Assyrian era, the Assyrian Heartland receives a large number of deportees from S Iran and Babylonia. Other sources of incoming deportees include the Levant and Anatolia.

~612 BCE The Assyrian Empire comes to an end. Most of its major centers are destroyed. There is continuity in some parts. However, Assyria as it existed is no more. The base of power transfers to the south (Babylon) and east (Persia).

539 BCE Persian domination over Mesopotamia begins.

331 BCE Greco-Macedonian domination over Mesopotamia begins.

Persian domination returns with the Parthians and remains for the greater part of the period through to the Arabo-Islamic conquests of the 7th century CE.

During the early Christian era Mesopotamia receives Greek-speaking Christian deportees from the west.

Lakhmid migrations to the north.

~ 400 CE Church of the East's center becomes Seleucia-Ctesiphon.

762 CE Baghdad becomes the Abbasid capital.

That is my basic outline through the 1st millennium CE. That, plus the other data I have referred to in this thread, is why I say that I may be, in significant part a mix of southern Mesopotamians, Iranians, and Greco-Macedonians/Anatolians. And, why I believe, linguistically, it would make sense to look more to Akkadian, Persian, and Greek for influences on the language that is Sureth."

I should also note, that the majority of samples of Assyrians used are "Nestorian" Assyrians. The reason I say this, is because there are some differences between Syriac Orthodox Assyrians, and Chaldean Assyrians. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroup diversity, Syriacs seem to be overwhelmingly J-P58 and E1b1b. Unlike Nestorians, who are mostly J1* and R1b.

This trend is also repeated in autosomal DNA tests, although there are only two Syriac Orthodox Assyrians and one Chaldean Catholic Assyrian. They both seem to differ in having slightly less West Asian, more Mediterranean and more Southwest Asian. Syriac Orthodox Assyrians in particular, have a pretty substantial "Levantine" pull. So much so, that individually, they are much closer to Iraqi Jews, Mandaeans and Levantine Arabs than Nestorians are. Chaldean Catholics are in the middle.

Hmmmm.. Well the thread I was following had more than 100 pages on it so it was kind of hard to read the stuff past the first 10 pages. What was Elias's final say?
I don't deny Assyrians have semitic in them. That would be stupid. But I think the real thing to debate would be whether they were originally semitic.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Hmmmm.. Well the thread I was following had more than 100 pages on it so it was kind of hard to read the stuff past the first 10 pages. What was Elias's final say?
I don't deny Assyrians have semitic in them. That would be stupid. But I think the real thing to debate would be whether they were originally semitic.

Yeah, it is very difficult to follow now. I've been following it for a long time now. If you're interested in learning more, I'd suggest subscribing to this thread (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/41138-Genetic-Origin%28s%29-of-Modern-Assyrians) on ForumBiodiversity. This is a recreation of a thread, that was split from the "Origins of the Ancient Assyrians". As far as I can remember, Elias vehemently disagreed. Although his objections were grounded more in opinion, than actual facts. Humanist did address them with evidence, so I'm inclined to agree with him more.

In fact, I thought Humanist's reply was so eloquent, that I went into Google's cache and copied it for reference. Edit: I just noticed the post you cited on the first page. That was posted back in 2011, it's based on old data and Elias' opinions.

[gregorius]

Assyrians were not Hurrians but that is not exactly accurate.

First lets take a look at the map here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/350px-Amarnamap.png

Hanigalbat, another name for the Mittani Hurrian kingdom resides inbetween Arameans and Assyrians and eventually became absorbed in to them. I can talk for a long time about this, I don't know where exactly to start though but here is a quote from some people from ABF(EliasAlucard):



So, basically the Assyrians were descendants of proto-Armenians, just as the Hurrians were, however the Assyrians had semitic influence form other Mesopotamians and adopted a semitic language, unlike the Proto-Armenians who stayed in the homeland of North-East Anatolia and became the modern day Armenians who adopted an IE language. And for clarification the Proto-Armenians were non-IE, non-Semitic Caucasians.

Assyrians arent descended from the Proto Armenians, Tehfuck:picard1:

[Hajdu]

34270

[Hajdu]

34271

[Ivan Kramskoï]

None north caucasus is very far from europeans genetically

[Hajdu]

my background is as follows:

Grandparent #1: North German/Danish
Grandparent #2: Hungarian
Grandparent #3: Southern Italian (Neapolitan / Calabrian)
Grandparent #4: Germany (Bavaria)

and I am showing up as up to 20% Caucasus and/or 25% West Asian in various analyses.

[Hajdu]

my Dodecad K12b
http://i41.tinypic.com/eba4gg.jpg

[wvwvw]

Assyrians were not Hurrians but that is not exactly accurate.

First lets take a look at the map here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/350px-Amarnamap.png

Hanigalbat, another name for the Mittani Hurrian kingdom resides inbetween Arameans and Assyrians and eventually became absorbed in to them. I can talk for a long time about this, I don't know where exactly to start though but here is a quote from some people from ABF(EliasAlucard):

So, basically the Assyrians were descendants of proto-Armenians, just as the Hurrians were, however the Assyrians had semitic influence form other Mesopotamians and adopted a semitic language, unlike the Proto-Armenians who stayed in the homeland of North-East Anatolia and became the modern day Armenians who adopted an IE language. And for clarification the Proto-Armenians were non-IE, non-Semitic Caucasians.

And then you woke up.

[gregorius]

And then you woke up.

actually this sentence is very true,

Armenians who stayed in the homeland of North-East Anatolia and became the modern day Armenians who adopted an IE language. And for clarification the Proto-Armenians were non-IE, non-Semitic Caucasians.

Armos and Assyrians geneticaly arent that close, they dont even cluster with eachother. Those M and Y dna dont tell shit since most armenians have the same Ydna as western europeans. ANd indians have the same Ydna as the NorthernSlavs. Stop proving things which arent true, really it is annoying me

[Baluarte]

This thread could have only been started by an American

[Hajdu]

Why do you say that Baluarte? But of course you're right.

[Baluarte]

Europeans have no need for genetics to define their identity.

[Hajdu]

Good point, but I'm more interested in ancient migrations and formation of peoples than nationality.