Why is Southern Italy poorer than Northern Italy?

[Wolf]

Almost all Southern Italian regions have a GDP that is 75% lower than the EU average. Until now, several attempts were made to solve this problem, but all of them finally failed.

I have found some reasons for this issue:


lack of ressources
lack of industry
no land-reform
peripheral location
organized crime


What do you think, do you have another explanations?

[Smaug]

lack of Celtic blood

I'm joking, the main point regarding this subject is that Northern Italy lived the process of industrialization during the end of the 19th Century, while Southern Italy remained based on the agricultural and familiar economy

[Lemon Kush]

Lazy wogs

[Peyrol]

Almost all Southern Italian regions have a GDP that is 75% lower than the EU average. Until now, several attempts were made to solve this problem, but all of them finally failed.

I have found some reasons for this issue:


lack of ressources
lack of industry
no land-reform
peripheral location
organized crime


What do you think, do you have another explanations?

Because they like to scream '''fucking notherner you took our resources'', while in reality they don't like to change and they like to be nourished by Rome and, obviously, by our northern money.

That's why regions like Calabria have almost half of Lombard or Venetic GDP, both nominal and pro-capita.

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

...and that's why they (southerners) compose 60-65% of northern italian population.




...ah, don't forget another important factor: organized crime.

[American_Hispanist]

^uhtred post sums it all.


Starting with the unification of Italy in 1861, a wide and increasing economic divide has been noticeably growing between the northern provinces and the southern half of the Italian state.[54] In the early decades of the new kingdom, the lack of an effective land reform, heavy taxes and other economic measures imposed on the South, together with the removal of protectionist tariffs on agricultural goods, made the situation virtually impossible for many tenant farmers, and small business and land owners. Multitudes chose to emigrate rather than try to eke out a meager living, especially from 1892 to 1921.[55]

In addition, the surge of brigandage and the mafia provoked widespread violence, corruption and illegality. After the rise of Benito Mussolini, the "Iron Prefect" Cesare Mori tried to defeat the already powerful criminal organizations flourishing in the South with some degree of success. Fascist policy aimed at the creation of an Italian empire and Southern Italian ports were strategic for all commerce towards the colonies. Naples enjoyed a demographic and economic rebirth, mainly thanks to the interest of King Victor Emmanuel III who was born there.[56] With the invasion of Southern Italy, the Allies restored the authority of the mafia families lost during the Fascist period and used their influence to maintain public order.[57]

In the 1950s the Cassa per il Mezzogiorno was set up as a huge public master plan to help industrializing the South, aiming to do this in two ways: through land reforms creating 120,000 new smallholdings, and through the "Growth Pole Strategy" whereby 60% of all government investment would go to the South, thus boosting the Southern economy by attracting new capital, stimulating local firms, and providing employment. However, the objectives were largely missed, and as a result the South became increasingly subsidized and state dependent, incapable of generating private growth itself.[58]

Even at present, huge regional disparities persist. Problems in Southern Italy still include widespread political corruption, pervading organized crime and very high unemployment rates.[59] It is estimated that about 80% of the businesses in the Sicilian cities of Catania and Palermo regularly pay protection money.[60] The Confesercenti reported that organized crime generated €140 billion in gross sales,[61] an estimated annual profit of €100 billion, and boasted estimated cash reserves of €65 billion


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/European_union_erdf_map_en.png

[Peyrol]

Another reason (but not the main reason) that, as piemontese, i know well

(i quote an old post of mine in another discussion):





Specifically about Piemont....definitely the so called ''Spedizione dei Mille'' (''Expedition of the Thousands) in 1861;

In this years, the little alpine state of Piemont, after the takeover of Lombardy from Austria and the annexation of central Italy (except Vatican), planned the definitive invasion and conquest of the huge Kingdom of Two Sicilies, the pansouthern italian state...

here the political map of Piemont-Sardinia, who became ''Italy'', in 1859...in orange our territories, in pink Kingdom of Two Sicilies and in azure the Vatican.

http://www.150anni.it/webi/_file/immagini/risorgimento/italiaprimaedopounita/geografiaitalia/Risorgimento%201860.jpg


...and here the political map of former Piemont-Sardinia, now ''Kingdom of Italy'', after the ''Spedizione dei Mille'', in 1861

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/295/italia1861.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/italia1861.jpg/)





...basically, the conquest of the South was a cultural genocide, and literally erased the former Two Sicilies economy, agriculture, industries, etc...some piemontese intellectuals also wrote about the ''non-europeaness'' of southern italians....millions of southern itialians started a massive emigration (now you people can understand why 90% of italians outside italy are southerners) who lasted until 1950...the differences between north and southern Italy are still stronger 152 years after the so called ''Unification''.


...yea, this is definitely a great crime...

[Damião de Góis]

Regional GDP per capita, OECD 2011:

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_glance-2011-en/images/graphics/6-5_europe.gif

While southern Italy does worse than northern Italy, they don't do that bad on the wider scale. The reason for their worse results, among others, is surely their more peripherical position in comparison to north Italy.

[Peyrol]

Regional GDP per capita, OECD 2011:

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_glance-2011-en/images/graphics/6-5_europe.gif

While southern Italy does worse than northern Italy, they don't do that bad on the wider scale. The reason for their worse results, among others, is surely their more peripherical position in comparison to north Italy.

Nope.

Friuli has 1 million people, is heavy periferical (almost in Slovenia) and is almost all mountainous, but the region produce about the double of calabrese GDP (a region with 3 million people, natural gas and also a little oil wells)

[Wolf]

Friuli has 1 million people, is heavy periferical (almost in Slovenia) and is almost all mountainous, but the region produce about the double of calabrese GDP (a region with 3 million people, natural gas and also a little oil wells)

But Friuli is also nearer to Austria, Germany and Switzerland, while Calabria is nearer to Greece and Albania.

[ABest]

As other members have pointed out, the two regions have experienced different histories. While the North joined the industrialization movement, the South remained more traditional because it was part of a different cultural sphere.

Consequently, Southerners have been an economical burden for the much more productive North. Also, this is what sparked the migrations from the South to the North.

[Damião de Góis]

Nope.

Friuli has 1 million people, is heavy periferical (almost in Slovenia) and is almost all mountainous, but the region produce about the double of calabrese GDP (a region with 3 million people, natural gas and also a little oil wells)

I meant geographically. North Italy are a part of the blue banana, and i wouldn't say Friuli is peripherical since you can travel easily to Austria or Slovenia from there, and Venice used to be a major trade center since the renaissanse from that position.
From Calabria you can't go anywhere too easily. This is important in terms of trade and commerce.

[American_Hispanist]

2010 Gross Domestic Product in Italy (2013 data)[63]



NUTS-1 region

mil. €

€ per cap.

% of the EU average




North-Western Italy

501,862

31,200

123



North-Eastern Italy

353,484

30,500

120



Central Italy

334,803

28,100

111



Southern Italy

242,532

17,100

67



Insular Italy

117,860

17,500

69

[Wolf]

the South remained more traditional because it was part of a different cultural sphere.

To which cultural sphere does Southern Italy belong, in contrast to Northern Italy?

[Graham]

While southern Italy does worse than northern Italy, they don't do that bad on the wider scale. The reason for their worse results, among others, is surely their more peripherical position in comparison to north Italy.
There's a divide between South Spain,Portugal & the richer Basques, Catalans also. looking at it. Thanks for the map.

[Peyrol]

But Friuli is also nearer to Austria, Germany and Switzerland, while Calabria is nearer to Greece and Albania.

Well, venetic and forlan (forlan is the ethnic adjective for friulians, the inhabitants of Friuli...and ancient rhaeto-romanic ethnic group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language)) have a very mittleleuropean mentality, that's for sure (while we northeastern are more...uuh, franco-swiss IMHO)...calabrese are generally lazy, but the main problem are two: collective mentality (i sincerely don't like calabrese people) and organized crime (Ndrangheta...you remember the 2007 murder in a pizzeria in Duisburg?...).

Lombardy is another thing since the region has 10 million people (even if ethnic lombars are only 30% of the population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombardy))...almost the entire swedish and portuguese population)...very high standard of living (as here, btw).



2010 Gross Domestic Product in Italy (2013 data)[63]



NUTS-1 region

mil. €

€ per cap.

% of the EU average




North-Western Italy

501,862

31,200

123





Well, we're proud cisalpine gaul-italics, after all...:lol:

[American_Hispanist]

California has a similar divide, a costal and interior divide (the wealthy areas are in the coast and the poor areas are in the interior).

[Damião de Góis]

California has a similar divide, a costal and interior divide (the wealthy areas are in the coast and the poor areas are in the interior).

In terms of GDP per capita maps it doesn't show, and California comes out as a rich state. In fact North America shows up as much richer than Europe in general if we are going to measure this by GDP per capita.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_glance-2011-en/images/graphics/6-6_americas.gif

[Peyrol]

In terms of GDP per capita maps it doesn't show, and California comes out as a rich state. In fact North America shows up as much richer than Europe in general if we are going to measure this by GDP per capita.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_glance-2011-en/images/graphics/6-6_americas.gif


Lol @ Campeche...:lol:

[Wolf]

There's a divide between South Spain,Portugal & the richer Basques, Catalans also. looking at it. Thanks for the map.

That's another topic.



Well, venetic and forlan (forlan is the ethnic adjective for friulians, the inhabitants of Friuli...and ancient rhaeto-romanic ethnic group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language)) have a very mittleleuropean mentality, that's for sure (while we northeastern are more...uuh, franco-swiss IMHO)...calabrese are generally lazy, but the main problem are two: collective mentality (i sincerely don't like calabrese people)

So, you regard the mentality as crucial for the economic problems of Southern Italy. But I'm still wondering if the mentality has been the reason, or if it has been the result of the economic situation.



and organized crime (Ndrangheta...you remember the 2007 murder in a pizzeria in Duisburg?...).

This is certainly a very important problem today, and I've also taken it into consideration.



organized crime

[American_Hispanist]

In terms of GDP per capita maps it doesn't show, and California comes out as a rich state. In fact North America shows up as much richer than Europe in general if we are going to measure this by GDP per capita.


Do it by county breakdown for California and a whole different picture emerges, some counties even have similar per-capita incomes as second-world/third world countries.



Rank

County

Per capita
income

Median
household
income

Median
family
income

Population

Number of
households




1

Marin

$53,000

$89,268

$112,911

252,409

103,210



2

San Francisco

$45,478

$71,304

$85,778

805,235

345,811



3

San Mateo

$43,958

$85,648

$101,578

718,451

257,837



4

Santa Clara

$39,804

$86,850

$100,733

1,781,642

604,204



5

Contra Costa

$37,818

$78,385

$91,791

1,049,025

375,364



6

Placer

$35,680

$74,447

$89,196

348,432

132,627



7

El Dorado

$34,393

$70,000

$83,142

181,058

70,223



8

Napa

$34,310

$67,389

$80,030

136,484

48,876



9

Orange

$34,017

$74,344

$83,735

3,010,232

992,781



10

Alameda

$33,961

$69,384

$85,014

1,510,271

545,138



11

Santa Cruz

$32,862

$65,253

$80,264

262,382

94,355



12

Sonoma

$32,597

$63,274

$76,715

483,878

185,825



13

Ventura

$32,348

$75,348

$84,364

823,318

266,920



14

Alpine

$32,159

$63,478

$80,278

1,175

497



15

Nevada

$30,727

$57,121

$66,753

98,764

41,527



16

San Diego

$30,715

$63,069

$73,560

3,095,313

1,086,865



17

San Luis Obispo

$29,790

$57,365

$72,054

269,637

102,016



18

Santa Barbara

$29,731

$60,078

$69,190

423,895

142,104




California

$29,188

$60,883

$69,322

37,253,956

12,577,498



19

Plumas

$28,732

$44,000

$54,182

20,007

8,977



20

Solano

$28,649

$68,409

$77,321

413,344

141,758



21

Calaveras

$28,408

$54,971

$65,542

45,578

18,886



22

Yolo

$27,420

$57,077

$73,259

200,849

70,872



23

Sierra

$27,389

$52,950

$67,933

3,240

1,482



24

Los Angeles

$27,344

$55,476

$61,622

9,818,605

3,241,204




United States

$27,334

$51,914

$62,982

308,745,538

116,716,292



25

Mono

$27,321

$55,087

$74,888

14,202

5,768



26

Mariposa

$27,064

$49,098

$57,682

18,251

7,693



27

Sacramento

$26,953

$56,439

$66,003

1,418,788

513,945



28

Inyo

$26,762

$44,808

$61,898

18,546

8,049



29

Amador

$26,329

$54,758

$65,103

38,091

14,569



30

Monterey

$25,776

$59,271

$63,372

415,057

125,946



31

San Benito

$25,508

$65,771

$75,051

55,269

16,805



32

Tuolumne

$25,483

$47,462

$62,440

55,365

22,156



33

Riverside

$24,431

$57,768

$64,787

2,189,641

686,260



34

Humboldt

$24,025

$40,089

$53,221

134,623

56,031



35

Shasta

$23,772

$43,944

$55,456

177,223

70,346



36

Butte

$23,404

$43,170

$54,924

220,000

87,618



37

Mendocino

$23,357

$43,759

$51,787

87,841

34,945



38

San Joaquin

$22,851

$54,341

$61,292

685,306

215,007



39

Sutter

$22,344

$50,944

$57,581

94,737

31,437



40

Siskiyou

$22,179

$36,981

$47,037

44,900

19,505



41

Trinity

$22,073

$38,725

$46,686

13,786

6,083



42

Stanislaus

$22,064

$51,094

$57,433

514,453

165,180



43

San Bernardino

$21,867

$55,845

$61,526

2,035,210

611,618



44

Lake

$21,531

$39,491

$50,140

64,665

26,548



45

Colusa

$21,317

$48,016

$53,643

21,419

7,056



46

Modoc

$20,536

$34,588

$46,349

9,686

4,064



47

Fresno

$20,329

$46,430

$52,306

930,450

289,391



48

Tehama

$20,198

$38,137

$45,451

63,463

23,767



49

Kern

$20,100

$47,089

$51,311

839,631

254,610



50

Glenn

$19,987

$43,074

$49,773

28,122

9,800



51

Yuba

$19,937

$46,807

$53,289

72,155

24,307



52

Lassen

$19,756

$50,317

$62,842

34,895

10,058



53

Del Norte

$18,974

$36,118

$51,824

28,610

9,907



54

Madera

$18,724

$46,039

$51,115

150,865

43,317



55

Merced

$18,041

$43,844

$47,924

255,793

75,642



56

Tulare

$17,966

$43,851

$47,126

442,179

130,352



57

Kings

$17,875

$48,684

$53,498

152,982

41,233



58

Imperial

$16,395

$38,685

$43,490

174,528

49,126

[Roy]

Because they like to scream '''fucking notherner you took our resources'', while in reality they don't like to change and they like to be nourished by Rome and, obviously, by our northern money.

That's why regions like Calabria have almost half of Lombard or Venetic GDP, both nominal and pro-capita.

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

...and that's why they (southerners) compose 60-65% of northern italian population.




...ah, don't forget another important factor: organized crime.

I would not expect such a big gap between North Italy and South.

[Wolf]

Do it by county breakdown for California and a whole different picture emerges, some counties even have similar per-capita incomes as second-world/third world countries.

Stick to the topic, please!

[Peyrol]

I would not expect such a big gap between North Italy and South.

Lol, why not?

[alfieb]

Just prior to unification, 2/3 of the economy of Italy was based in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (aka Southern Italy).

Where did things go sour?

When we began being ruled out of Turin, Florence, and later Rome, rather than Palermo and Naples. The elites in Italy were Northern, the industries were moved to the North, it was doomed from the start.

The island of Sicily had been, at one time, one of the richest regions in all of Europe, and Naples was a humongous world city comparable to Paris and London. Indeed, it was, for many years, the second-largest city in Europe. In the Kingdom of Italy, however, they wanted nothing to do with that. Their interests and our interests have never been the same.

Northern Italians often complain about "terrone" migration from the Mezzogiorno (south) but the truth of the matter is, it's the chickens coming home to roost. You ruined our economy, so now our excess labour are going where the jobs are. As a result, Milan and Turin look nothing like they did 150 years ago, while Palermo is 97% Sicilian.

It's not even nearly as bad as it could be. Sicilian and Calabrian unemployment is among the worst in all of Europe. Imagine if those hundreds of thousands of out-of-work Sicilians all moved North. Lega Nord would have a fit.

[King Claus]

They're more black than northern italians

[glass]

too many negro-arabian sicilians in south Italy...

[Peyrol]

Just prior to unification, 2/3 of the economy of Italy was based in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (aka Southern Italy).

Where did things go sour?

When we began being ruled out of Turin, Florence, and later Rome, rather than Palermo and Naples. The elites in Italy were Northern, the industries were moved to the North, it was doomed from the start.

The island of Sicily had been, at one time, one of the richest regions in all of Europe, and Naples was a humongous world city comparable to Paris and London. Indeed, it was, for many years, the second-largest city in Europe. In the Kingdom of Italy, however, they wanted nothing to do with that. Their interests and our interests have never been the same.

Northern Italians often complain about "terrone" migration from the Mezzogiorno (south) but the truth of the matter is, it's the chickens coming home to roost. You ruined our economy, so now our excess labour are going where the jobs are. As a result, Milan and Turin look nothing like they did 150 years ago, while Palermo is 97% Sicilian.

It's not even nearly as bad as it could be. Sicilian and Calabrian unemployment is among the worst in all of Europe. Imagine if those hundreds of thousands of out-of-work Sicilians all moved North. Lega Nord would have a fit.

That's true and false at the same times, since the only industrial states were austrian Lombardy-Veneto and obviously us.

Duosicilian kingdom had a great income, but the problem was that 99% of this income went to the nobles and to the landlords, since the Kingdom was feudal-based and very theocratic.

Don't mention also to the fact that neapolitan occupation of Sicily was totally illegal...your island revolted about 4-5 times against neapolitan rules...wonder why Fernando I of Bourbon was called ''Re bomba''...


Here the reaò industrial incomes (and emigration):

http://www.bibliolab.it/italia_postunita/emigeazione1.gif





Another interesting fact is the alphabetization of the country at the Unification:

http://www.bibliolab.it/italia_postunita/alfabetizzazione1.gif

[Peyrol]

Northern Italians often complain about "terrone" migration from the Mezzogiorno (south) but the truth of the matter is, it's the chickens coming home to roost. You ruined our economy, so now our excess labour are going where the jobs are. As a result, Milan and Turin look nothing like they did 150 years ago, while Palermo is 97% Sicilian.

It's not even nearly as bad as it could be. Sicilian and Calabrian unemployment is among the worst in all of Europe. Imagine if those hundreds of thousands of out-of-work Sicilians all moved North. Lega Nord would have a fit.


...and so, we've to be happy of this?

Lombards are 27% of lombardian population (they were nearly 98% before 1950), piemontese about 45% if Piemonte's population, Fòrlans less than 60% of Friuli...we lost our indentitieswith massive southern immigration (and now, with the islamization by MENA immigrants).

And it wasn't a ''piemontese fault''...it was a freemasonic falut, it's another thing.

[alfieb]

Duosicilian kingdom had a great income, but the problem was that 99% of this income went to the nobles and to the landlords, since the Kingdom was feudal-based and very theocratic.
And what happened when the Piedmontese took over? They abolished our nobility. The House of Bourbon went into exile. All of that wealth gone.


Don't mention also to the fact that neapolitan occupation of Sicily was totally illegal...your island revolted about 4-5 times against neapolitan rules...wonder why Fernando I of Bourbon was called ''Re bomba''...
They revolted because they didn't like the capital being in Naples. They didn't revolt when the capital was Palermo, as it was during the Napoleonic era. It wasn't illegal. The Bourbons were, by blood and by treaty, the kings of Sicily. Truly illegal was the Expedition of the Thousand and Garibaldi. They invaded and conquered a sovereign country with no legal basis, and annexed it to another country who had no claim to that territory. The Bourbons never renounced their claim to the throne, nor should they. The army gave up, the nobility did not.


...and so, we've to be happy of this?
I never said that, but there is blame to go around. It is not a matter of "Lazy agrarian criminals", that is an oversimplification.


Lombards are 27% of lombardian population (they were nearly 98% before 1950), piemontese about 45% if Piemonte's population, Fòrlans less than 60% of Friuli...we lost our indentitieswith massive southern immigration (and now, with the islamization by MENA immigrants).
That's my point. Sicily is over 95% Sicilian. We don't pay taxes to Rome or to Brussels. We were screwed over, but now we are using the system to our advantage.


.And it wasn't a ''piemontese fault''...it was a freemasonic falut, it's another thing.
Cavour and Victor Emanuel could have said no to the annexation of the South. They didn't care about territorial integrity. They sold out your Nizzard brothers in order to gain support against the Austrians, as if the House of Savoia had any right to rule Lombardo-Venetia.

[Harkonnen]

Professor Tatu Vanhanen co-author of IQ and the Wealth of Nations has made a controversial proposition that the political and financial elites in Africa should be replaced by Europeans or Asians given their higher IQ. Do you think this same idea could work for Southern Europe, should the top political positions be given to North Euros* for the benefit of the common man?

*Preferably Finns for the reason them being the most intelligent and least corrupted bunch

[Wolf]

Where did things go sour?

When we began being ruled out of Turin, Florence, and later Rome, rather than Palermo and Naples. The elites in Italy were Northern, the industries were moved to the North, it was doomed from the start.

Thank you for that clue, but why did later attempts to industrialize Southern Italy after WWII fail?



Another interesting fact is the alphabetization of the country at the Unification:

http://www.bibliolab.it/italia_postunita/alfabetizzazione1.gif

An interesting fact, indeed. Southern Italy appeared to have a bad educational system, maybe because of the stronger influence of the Catholic Church?

[alfieb]

*Preferably Finns for the reason them being the most intelligent and least corrupted bunch
False. The most intelligent Europeans are Northern Italians, specifically Venetians.

[Harkonnen]

False. The most intelligent Europeans are Northern Italians, specifically Venetians.

Sounds incredible, but like all intelligent beings I'm quite open minded (with a limit). Maybe you can prove me wrong?

[alfieb]

Sounds incredible, but like all intelligent beings I'm quite open minded (with a limit). Maybe you can prove me wrong?

Read your own beloved studies. Sicilians and other Southern Italians drag the Italian average down, yet it is still around the same as Finland's. Northeast Italians are quite intelligent, according to IQ scores. Friuli-Venezia Giulia has the highest in Europe.

http://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/europe-iq-1200-lynn20121.png
Source: Lynn-Vanhanen

[Peyrol]

An interesting fact, indeed. Southern Italy appeared to have a bad educational system, maybe because of the stronger influence of the Catholic Church?


I don't know this, but i think that was due to the heavy feudal, classist and latifondist structure of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies...

[Wolf]

I don't know this, but i think that was due to the heavy feudal, classist and latifondist structure of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies...

That often correlates with a stronger religiousness.

[Peyrol]

That often correlates with a stronger religiousness.

Yeah that's for sure....the wife of king Francesco II of Bourbon, Marie Sophie Amalie Herzogin in Bayern, was a catholic integralist and probably heavy influenced by the court priest...since the queen was the real leader of the Kingdom (Francesco II was an idiot and a totally incompetent politician), that can be a realistic explanation.

[alfieb]

Sicily had been an absolute monarchy since 1231. My family had been in the nobility since that same time. Feudalism was as deeply ingrained into Sicilian culture (and Southern Italy) as anywhere else in Europe. That is why, somehow, it was they, the stolen Bourbon lands, who voted to keep the Kingdom of Italy, and not the lands in the North who had loved the House of Savoia, and vice-versa. To us, monarchy is the natural way of life.

[Graham]

False. The most intelligent Europeans are Northern Italians, specifically Venetians.

Eastern Scots, would give them good competition. The North Italian who migrated here, are an intelligent group of people.

[Empecinado]

Southern Italy until a century or so, at the time of unification, was more advanced and richer than the north in general. In the 19th century had the largest industrial complex in Italy, the largest merchant marine in Italy and the second in Europe, the first steamboat in Europe, the highest number of doctors per capita, the lowest number of child mortality and there was built the first railway line.

Though all the big Italian names, from Leonardo to Enrico Fermi, to Volta, Avogadro, Galileo, Cardano .... are from the center-north, not south.

[robar]

African admixture in Europe

33829

[alfieb]

Bellini was a great Sicilian composer. Evola was the philosopher behind the fascist movement.

A few Sicilians have won nobel prizes. The Renaissance wasn't in the Kingdom of Sicily. At that same time period, few Spaniards were established in those areas, either. :picard1:

[Empecinado]

Bellini was a great Sicilian composer. Evola was the philosopher behind the fascist movement.

A few Sicilians have won nobel prizes. The Renaissance wasn't in the Kingdom of Sicily. At that same time period, few Spaniards were established in those areas, either. :picard1:

I know, but most of the important Italians were from the north and the center. It seems that the system of city-states and small republics favored patronage and universities.

[alfieb]

I know, but most of the important Italians were from the north and the center. It seems that the system of city-states and small republics favored patronage and universities.
True enough. Our king was in Madrid. Doesn't really pay to be great. You're probably not going to be in his court.

[Empecinado]

True enough. Our king was in Madrid. Doesn't really pay to be great. You're probably not going to be in his court.

Habsburgs and Bourbons were (and are) disastrous...

[alfieb]

Habsburgs and Bourbons were (and are) disastrous...

Better the Bourbons than the Savoyards.

[Newsboy]

...and so, we've to be happy of this?

Lombards are 27% of lombardian population (they were nearly 98% before 1950), piemontese about 45% if Piemonte's population, Fòrlans less than 60% of Friuli...we lost our indentitieswith massive southern immigration (and now, with the islamization by MENA immigrants).

And it wasn't a ''piemontese fault''...it was a freemasonic falut, it's another thing.

I knew Lombardy, Piedmont and Friuli were full of southerners due to economic reasons. I don't think many northerners have migrated south because it wouldn't make sense. Why move from a prosperous place to one with organized crime and poverty? Southerners have probably maintained their Southern heritage. What about Emilia-Romagna, Veneto, and Liguria? Are there many people of Southern origin living in those 3 regions?

[alfieb]

I have relatives who live in Genoa.

Sicilian ones, to be specific. (Because I am also 1/8 Genoese)

[Peyrol]

Southern Italy until a century or so, at the time of unification, was more advanced and richer than the north in general. In the 19th century had the largest industrial complex in Italy, the largest merchant marine in Italy and the second in Europe, the first steamboat in Europe, the highest number of doctors per capita, the lowest number of child mortality and there was built the first railway line.

Though all the big Italian names, from Leonardo to Enrico Fermi, to Volta, Avogadro, Galileo, Cardano .... are from the center-north, not south.

...and the last feudal-latifondist monarchy in Europe, high illiteracy rates, high mortality rates, etc.

Pino Aprile's books are a violence toward History (no datas, no references, etc), they must be forbidden.

[Peyrol]

African admixture in Europe

33829

That's senseless since even sicilian or calabrian quality of life and GDP per capitas are 10000 times better than Hungary (and eastern Europe).

[alfieb]

Bullshit.

Sicilian_D does not have 10% SSA or even 5% SSA on Dodecad. Whoever made that map is a troll. I think it's around 2%.

[Peyrol]

I knew Lombardy, Piedmont and Friuli were full of southerners due to economic reasons. I don't think many northerners have migrated south because it wouldn't make sense. Why move from a prosperous place to one with organized crime and poverty? Southerners have probably maintained their Southern heritage. What about Emilia-Romagna, Veneto, and Liguria? Are there many people of Southern origin living in those 3 regions?


Non native (among italians, this map dont show foreigners) percentages by single provinces

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg

In Veneto and Emilia there are yes the southerners, but not so many as here or in Lombardy.

[Newsboy]

Non native (among italians, this map dont show foreigners) percentages by single provinces

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg

In Veneto and Emilia there are yes the southerners, but not so many as here or in Lombardy.

According to that map, Northern Italy is in fact full of southerners. Even the places with the least southerners (Trentino), it's at around 30-40%. Ravenna province in Romagna has 60-70% of Italians probably of southern origin. Provinces in Veneto have between 30-60% Southerners. Even Tuscany has a lot of southerners, they are the majority there. How did that happen? Tuscany isn't the north. What attracts southerners or other non-native Tuscans to there?

[Guapo]

short and fat and hairy Lazy wogs

[BLUEU]

As others have mentioned, it's due to the peripheral location, very far away from the French, Northeastern Spain, Southern England, German, Benelux, Austrian, Swiss, Northern Italian economical "core" of Europe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/European_union_erdf_map_en.png

[Sky earth]

Northern Italians should be lucky to have superior Germanic Lombard genes. They are mostly nordic and therefore they are smarter than Southern Italians who have the misfortune to be lazy Helleno-Romance wogs. Southern Italians are also mixed with Arabs which is the baddest thing that can happen to an ethnicity:rolleyes:

[Ouistreham]

Why?

Because of the Hajnal Line which separates Western from Eastern Europe.

(This map is not very accurate, the line should actually leave Trieste to the West, follow the Germanic/Slavic fault line and include most of Finland, but I can't find a better one).

The line in red is Hajnal's. The dark blue lines show areas of high nuptiality Xest of the Hajnal line:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Hajnal_line.JPG/720px-Hajnal_line.JPG




The Hajnal line is a border that links Saint Petersburg, Russia and Trieste, Italy. In 1965, John Hajnal discovered it divides Europe into two areas characterized by a different levels of nuptiality. To the west of the line, marriage rates and thus fertility were comparatively low and a significant minority of women married late or remained single; to the east of the line and in the Mediterranean and select pockets of Northwestern Europe, early marriage was the norm and high fertility was countered by high mortality.

West of this line, the average age of marriage for women was 23 or more, men 26, spouses were relatively close in age, a substantial number of women married for the first time in their thirties and forties, and 10% to 20% of adults never married. East of the line, the mean age of both sexes at marriage was earlier, spousal age disparity was greater and marriage more nearly universal.

The Western European pattern of late and non-universal marriage restricted fertility massively, especially when it was coupled with very low levels of childbirth out of wedlock. Birth control took place by delaying marriage more than suppressing fertility within it.

The region's late marriage pattern has received considerable scholarly attention in part because it appears to be unique; it has not been found in any other part of the world prior to the Twentieth Century. The origins of the late marriage system are a matter of conjecture prior to the 16th Century when the demographic evidence from family reconstitution studies makes the prevalence of the pattern clear. Many historians have wondered whether this unique conjugal regime might explain, in part, why capitalism first took root in Northwestern Europe, contributing to the region's relatively low mortality rates, hastening the fragmentation of the peasantry and the precocious formation of a mobile class of landless wage-earners. Others have highlighted the significance of the late marriage pattern for gender relations, for the relative strength of women's position within marriage, the "conjugal" dowry system of Northwestern Europe in which the dowry merged with the husband's wealth and would thus grow or shrink depending on circumstances (perhaps an incentive for many women to work), the centrality of widows in village land inheritance, and the vitality of women's community networks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

My comments:
. Delayed marriage ==> higher status for women ==> more efficient cultural accumulation and transmission, hence higher literacy.
. Non universal marriage ==> better opportunities for genetic self-selection.

The author Michael Mitterauer (“Why Europe?: The Medieval Origins of Its Special Path”) also observes that “these cross-cultural examples of analogous, and markedly contrasting, agricultural systems illustrate the uniqueness of the manorial and the hide systems as they developed as components of the early medieval agrarian revolution in the Frankish heartland. The diffusion of innovations from the agrarian economy and the agrarian system very often took place in concert — as, for instance, during the great process of the colonization of the East. This was not true in every case, of course. The manorial system expanded southward, following the Frankish Empire’s specific forms of lordship and penetrating into regions where typical features of the Frankish agrarian revolution did not exist. A large, relatively homogenous area was created by these expansionist movements, which were characterized on the whole by identical or similar structures of the agrarian system and the social order it generated. Over against this ‘core Europe’ was a ‘peripheral Europe’ that did not acquire these structures until a relatively later date — or not at all. Here we can list Ireland, Wales, and Scotland in the West; the area of eastern Europe beyond the Trieste-St. Petersburg line that was unaffected by the colonization of the East; the entire Balkan region; southern Italy, which was formerly Byzantine, along with the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula that was under Moorish rule for so long a time. The political, economic, and social evolution of many regions in ‘peripheral Europe’ took a different turn because of their clinging to other, traditional agrarian systems.“

Other interesting comments can be found on this blog:
http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/behind-the-hajnal-line/

As for Southern Italy, in addition to the Hajnal Line effects (and specifically low literacy well into the 20th Century), the problem is compounded by internal migrations and brain drain.

There are lots of talented entrepreneurs and engineers in the South, but when they want to create a business, where do you think they are going to do? They go to the North of course!

The most obvious consequence is that those migrations have virtually dried up all local resources in capable elements, making the parasitic (or downright criminal) component all the more visible.

In other words, while internal migrations have genetically Southernized the North, they have at the same tome made if more Northern in terms of development and cultural efficiency.

Meanwhile, the South is spiralling down in constantly worsening Southernization.

[Graham]

As others have mentioned, it's due to the peripheral location, very far away from the French, Northeastern Spain, Southern England, German, Benelux, Austrian, Swiss, Northern Italian economical "core" of Europe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/European_union_erdf_map_en.png

The Pink highland part does better than the map suggests. Problem is a lack of industry & poor farmland. But the area brings in water & electricity through hydroelectric. Also Whisky production.

The farmland is of poor quality, & Tourism is a bigger part of business, perhaps the reason. Farming is done through the ancient croft system, it's divided.

[Peyrol]

According to that map, Northern Italy is in fact full of southerners. Even the places with the least southerners (Trentino), it's at around 30-40%. Ravenna province in Romagna has 60-70% of Italians probably of southern origin. Provinces in Veneto have between 30-60% Southerners. Even Tuscany has a lot of southerners, they are the majority there. How did that happen? Tuscany isn't the north. What attracts southerners or other non-native Tuscans to there?

Many tuscans ''non natives'' are also simply other tuscans from border provinces, but yes there is also a good amount of southernet.

Interesting fact: at 31/12/2011, Tuscany is officially 9% han chinese, lol.

[Peyrol]

Northern Italians should be lucky to have superior Germanic Lombard genes. They are mostly nordic and therefore they are smarter than Southern Italians who have the misfortune to be lazy Helleno-Romance wogs. Southern Italians are also mixed with Arabs which is the baddest thing that can happen to an ethnicity:rolleyes:

You're from the wrong ethnicity to say these things, lol.

[Newsboy]

Many tuscans ''non natives'' are also simply other tuscans from border provinces, but yes there is also a good amount of southernet.

Interesting fact: at 31/12/2011, Tuscany is officially 9% han chinese, lol.

Oh I see, Southerners are very widespread in Italy. Tuscany is 9% Han Chinese? I didn't know there were that many Chinese people there. I thought there were more South Asians (India, Pakistan, etc.) than Chinese there. Overall, does Italy have more Chinese people or Indians/Pakistanis?

[Peyrol]

Oh I see, Southerners are very widespread in Italy. Tuscany is 9% Han Chinese? I didn't know there were that many Chinese people there. I thought there were more South Asians (India, Pakistan, etc.) than Chinese there. Overall, does Italy have more Chinese people or Indians/Pakistanis?

On 31/12/2010, 25 greatest group of immigrants (87% of immigrants in our country lives in the North):

Romania 1.123.763 (estimated other 600,000 illegals)
Albania 566.684
Marocco 431.529
Moldova 205.600
Cina, Rep. Popolare 188.352
Ucraina 184.129
Filippine 123.584
India 105.863
Polonia 105.608
Tunisia 103.678
Macedonia 92.847
Perù 87.747
Ecuador 85.940
Egitto 82.064
Sri Lanka 75.343
Bangladesh 73.965
Senegal 72.618
Pakistan 64.859
Serbia 53.875
Nigeria 48.674
Bulgaria 46.026
Ghana 44.353
Brasile 44.067
Germania 43.302
Francia 32.956

[American_Hispanist]

On 31/12/2010, 25 greatest group of immigrants (87% of immigrants in our country lives in the North):

Romania 1.123.763 (estimated other 600,000 illegals)
Albania 566.684
Marocco 431.529
Moldova 205.600
Cina, Rep. Popolare 188.352
Ucraina 184.129
Filippine 123.584
India 105.863
Polonia 105.608
Tunisia 103.678
Macedonia 92.847
Perù 87.747
Ecuador 85.940
Egitto 82.064
Sri Lanka 75.343
Bangladesh 73.965
Senegal 72.618
Pakistan 64.859
Serbia 53.875
Nigeria 48.674

Joder, hasta los sudamericanos están en Italia. :lol: Italia se anda convertiendose como EE.UU. :(

[Newsboy]

On 31/12/2010, 25 greatest group of immigrants (87% of immigrants in our country lives in the North):

Romania 1.123.763 (estimated other 600,000 illegals)
Albania 566.684
Marocco 431.529
Moldova 205.600
Cina, Rep. Popolare 188.352
Ucraina 184.129
Filippine 123.584
India 105.863
Polonia 105.608
Tunisia 103.678
Macedonia 92.847
Perù 87.747
Ecuador 85.940
Egitto 82.064
Sri Lanka 75.343
Bangladesh 73.965
Senegal 72.618
Pakistan 64.859
Serbia 53.875
Nigeria 48.674
Bulgaria 46.026
Ghana 44.353
Brasile 44.067
Germania 43.302
Francia 32.956

On that list, a total of 320,000 South Asians (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka) as opposed to under 200,000 East Asians (predominantly Chinese). Italy has more South Asians than East Asians just like UK or even Canada. Australia and the US have more East Asians than South Asians.

[American_Hispanist]

Peyrol, you can always go to Argentina or Southern Brasil if you want to be around more Italians. :lol:

[Peyrol]

Joder, hasta los sudamericanos están en Italia. :lol: Italia se anda convertiendose como EE.UU. :(

''Latinos'' in Italy lives mostly in Liguria.

....not surprising, since is the birthplace of Cristoforo Colombo :lol:


....no, i don't think we will become like the USA...probably something like West Bucarest or New Marrackech...

[American_Hispanist]

....no, i don't think we will become like the USA...probably something like West Bucarest or New Marrackech...

Based on these stats you gave, Italia is converting itself into a multiethnic place like USA, at least, your home regions mostly.

[Peyrol]

On that list, a total of 320,000 South Asians (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka) as opposed to under 200,000 East Asians (predominantly Chinese). Italy has more South Asians than East Asians just like UK or even Canada.


Yes it seems so...

Another important point about the southernization of northern Italy is the birthrate: piemontese birthate, for example, dropped from 5,5 of 1936 to 2,1 in 1965...basically we reached the ''substitution zone'' 50 years ago...sicilian birthate reched a lower level than 2,1 only in the late 90s, for example.


Peyrol, you can always go to Argentina or Southern Brasil if you want to be around more Italians. :lol:


I know, there are more pure northern italians in the Southern Cone than here (just look at the new Pope...)

[Peyrol]

Based on these stats you gave, Italia is converting itself into a multiethnic place like USA, at least, your home regions mostly.

Basically yes...minorities are involved in 30% of new births in northern Italy (34% in my hometown), so...

[Peyrol]

Our demographic history is very interesting, btw:


Year Population

1 6,000,000
500 4,500,000
1000 7,000,000
1500 11,000,000
1861 22,182,377
1871 27,303,509
1881 28,953,480
1901 32,965,504
1911 35,845,048
1921 39,943,528
1931 41,651,000
1936 42,943,602
1951 47,515,537
1961 50,623,569
1971 54,136,547
1981 56,556,911
1991 56,778,031
2001 56,995,744
2011 60,820,787


4,5 million people in 500 A.D....this, unlike i was used tho think before (''zero impact'') show how germanic invasions and settlements were significative and influent in the ethnic composition of some parts of the country, since more than 350,000 germanic tribesmen (mostly the longobards, but also the goths and a few saxons) settled in some zones of the peninsula.

[Szegedist]

That's senseless since even sicilian or calabrian quality of life and GDP per capitas are 10000 times better than Hungary (and eastern Europe).

GDP is about the same, and capacity of life, is debatable, but certainly not 10 000 times better. North Italy is not 10000 better, so I really doubt Sicily is.

[Peyrol]

GDP is about the same, and capacity of life, is debatable, but certainly not 10 000 times better. North Italy is not 10000 better, so I really doubt Sicily is.

That's debatable.

The rest was simply a provocation toward an idiot post.

[Szegedist]

That's debatable.
I have been to Northern Italy myself(the Province of Imperia) and it wasn't exactly Norway..



The rest was simply a provocation toward an idiot post.
Understandable

[robar]

The rest was simply a provocation toward an idiot post

Whut? What?:rolleyes::D

[Peyrol]

I have been to Northern Italy myself(the Province of Imperia) and it wasn't exactly Norway..



Understandable

Bleha, disgusting...only shipyards and fishing industries.
Levant riviere of Liguria is better.

[American_Hispanist]

Yes it seems so...

Another important point about the southernization of northern Italy is the birthrate: piemontese birthate, for example, dropped from 5,5 of 1936 to 2,1 in 1965...


why such a dramatic drop?

[Szegedist]

Whut? What?:rolleyes::D

Don't needlessly provoke with such maps, especially when we have no issues with Italians.

[Peyrol]

why such a dramatic drop?

We (northwest) simply had our demographic transition before many other european places...unfortunately.

[Peyrol]

Btw, i've to admit that some southern italia cities, even if i'll never would live there, have a magnetic attraction (too different world than here)...Naples for example has a strange charm...

Probably our weakness is also our strenght...the heavy internal cultural difference...

...from these places (my region)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL5pQTuZYE4


...to this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoNmdVmWoI

[Terror Terror]

Btw, i've to admit that some southern italia cities, even if i'll never would live there, have a magnetic attraction (too different world than here)...Naples for example has a strange charm...
Honestly, there is not much difference between Northern and Southern Italy. Both are almost backwards in terms of economic development. At the same time there is not much difference between Italy and the rest of the eastern European block, economically.

[alfieb]

:picard1:

And there is no difference between Canada and Minnesota. :yawn:

[The Alchemist]

Because of a retard mentality first of all, which led to mafia....because lot of people prefer "easy ways" to earn money, and this is the disastrous result, a good half of the nation goes under water...

[American_Hispanist]

Honestly, there is not much difference between Northern and Southern Italy. Both are almost backwards in terms of economic development. At the same time there is not much difference between Italy and the rest of the eastern European block, economically.

such an idiotic post.

[alfieb]

Because of a retard mentality first of all, which led to mafia....because lot of people prefer "easy ways" to earn money, and this is the disastrous result, a good half of the nation goes under water...
Spoken like a true Northerner. Retard mentality :rolleyes:

[Scholarios]

In the past, the South was wealthier due to trade and more organized farming practices, closer links with the East also lead to it being something of a 'center' of the Mediterranean. These farming practices however eventually depleted the soil (it was a common theme of Roman rural life)

However, the modern draining of the Poe River swamps and subsequent industrialization, changed things in the north, which, aside from a few areas in the early middle ages, was a relative backwater. Continue on 150 years and you have the situation as it exists now.

[The Alchemist]

Spoken like a true Northerner. Retard mentality :rolleyes:

Yes it is so, i didn't say the place is shit, but the mentality of many people is.
Like you for exemple, you become defensive instead of questioning yourself and maybe improve your situation.
Sorry, i don't support that kind of mentality of "fucking the community", "finding a man with money" and "wake up at 11,00 because it's easier"....maybe i could do that, but i prefer fighting every day all by myself, and i don't ask anything to anyone.

[alfieb]

I'm not defensive at all. I've said, rather openly, that Southern Italy, and particularly Sicily, are fairly backwards and have among the lowest IQ scores in Western Europe. I've said, with no reservations, that I live quite comfortably in New York and will remain here until the economic situation in Sicily stabilizes.

But it's not a retard mentality that has caused us to lag behind. It was circumstances out of our control. We are not an industrial region. We were never the post-unification Italian government's highest priority. 2/3 of the wealth in Italy in 1860 was located in the Mezzogiorno (including Sicily). Post-unification, with the exile and emigration of much of the Sicilian nobility, those resources were lost forever. Who is to blame for that, the local people, or the assholes who invaded and conquered our country?

Mafia is not the problem, it is a symptom. While they like to claim that they have been around since the 13th century, the truth of the matter is that there is no proof that it predates Risorgimento.

With the replacement of our monarchy with the Italian one, the guy who had been the local noble guy that the peasants went to in order to get things done became the local mafia don who the peasants went to in order to get things done. They had done it within the law before, but after becoming part of Italy, they had to do it outside of the law. Sicily, only accessable by boat of by plane, was more-or-less outside of the scope of the law, anyway... so the gangsters lived by their own code. It happened in my own family. We were nobility since the 13th century, and mafiosi since the 19th.

[American_Hispanist]

Yes it is so, i didn't say the place is shit, but the mentality of many people is.
Like you for exemple, you become defensive instead of questioning yourself and maybe improve your situation.
Sorry, i don't support that kind of mentality of "fucking the community", "finding a man with money" and "wake up at 11,00 because it's easier"....maybe i could do that, but i prefer fighting every day all by myself, and i don't ask anything to anyone.

mujer, las cosas son más complicados que tu punto de vista de blanco y negro. :thumb001:

[Peyrol]

Spoken like a true Northerner. Retard mentality :rolleyes:

Body and Soul ''northerner''...? ...:lol:

I totally agree with her post.

[Ulla]

Almost all Southern Italian regions have a GDP that is 75% lower than the EU average. Until now, several attempts were made to solve this problem, but all of them finally failed.

I have found some reasons for this issue:


lack of ressources
lack of industry
no land-reform
peripheral location
organized crime


What do you think, do you have another explanations?

And do not forget that Northern Italian regions (Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Liguria...) and Central Italian regions (Tuscany, Marche, Latium...) are much richer and have higher GDP than most of Northern European regions.

Southern Italian regions have a low GDP mainly due to historical and geographical reasons.

[Peyrol]

A me pare che un buon inizio per molti al Sud sarebbe fare un'autoanalisi invece che accusare i ''piemontesi'' (categoria non meglio definita, visto che nei Mille c'era gente da tutto il mondo...) per una cosa (forse) avvenuta 152 anni fa....sempre 'sta cosa del ''colpa di tizio, colpa di caio''...ci si compiange ed intanto non si agisce e si aspetta che le cose cadao dal cielo... darsi da fare nada...

[Prince Carlo]

Northern Italians are richer because they are white like snow and blonde.

[Atlantic Islander]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion_capital


The world fashion trade is estimated to be over three trillion USD.

[Terror Terror]

Northern Italians are richer because they are white like snow and blonde.
The Northern Italians are hardly much whiter than the Southern Italians and look mostly like Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians and Northern Greeks.

[Terror Terror]

They have an Ibero-Ligurian component but it's mostly diluted in a sea of Greco-Roman.

[Wolf]

And do not forget that Northern Italian regions (Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Liguria...) and Central Italian regions (Tuscany, Marche, Latium...) are much richer and have higher GDP than most of Northern European regions.

This statement is in need of a clarification.

Take a look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Map_of_GDP_per_capita_in_the_EU_in_2007_%28NUTS_3% 29.png

[Virtuous]

Because they like to scream '''fucking notherner you took our resources'', while in reality they don't like to change and they like to be nourished by Rome and, obviously, by our northern money.

That's why regions like Calabria have almost half of Lombard or Venetic GDP, both nominal and pro-capita.

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

...and that's why they (southerners) compose 60-65% of northern italian population.




...ah, don't forget another important factor: organized crime.

Malta = The same colour as most of France and half of Germany :coffee:


WOGS A CHI??!! :laugh:

[Terror Terror]

WOGS A CHI??!! :laugh:
Woggines is a state of body and mind. It has nothing to do with one's income.

[Peyrol]

This statement is in need of a clarification.

Take a look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Map_of_GDP_per_capita_in_the_EU_in_2007_%28NUTS_3% 29.png

This map is pre crysis (2007). It would be interesting see a 2012 map.

[Newsboy]

This map is pre crysis (2007). It would be interesting see a 2012 map.

Peyrol, I'd imagine the 2012 map would be drastically different to this one. This especially applies to Spain, Portugal, and Greece not so much in Italy though.

[Wolf]

Peyrol, I'd imagine the 2012 map would be drastically different to this one. This especially applies to Spain, Portugal, and Greece not so much in Italy though.

I agree with you. A current map wouldn't be useful because the "Euro Crisis" is not over yet.

[Newsboy]

I agree with you. A current map wouldn't be useful because the "Euro Crisis" is not over yet.

Yeah, this crisis is ongoing. If I'm not mistaken it would be Fall 2008-present.

[Wolf]

Yeah, this crisis is ongoing. If I'm not mistaken it would be Fall 2008-present.

That's quite long for a crisis, isn't it?

[Newsboy]

That's quite long for a crisis, isn't it?

For a crisis, yes it is. 4 and a half years and still counting. Who knows when it will end.

[Peyrol]

For a crisis, yes it is. 4 and a half years and still counting. Who knows when it will end.

Not soon, at least here in Europe.

[Vasconcelos]

That's quite long for a crisis, isn't it?

No, it isn't, Portugal has been in crisis since late 90s.

If you want to be cynnical you could say the country has been in crisis since the mid 1800s.

[Slycooper]

The North is cosmopolitan and the south is dry and farmland.

[Damião de Góis]

No, it isn't, Portugal has been in crisis since late 90s.

If you want to be cynnical you could say the country has been in crisis since the mid 1850s.

I don't agree, it started when we joined the Euro. Before that, unemployment was very low.

[Peyrol]

No, it isn't, Portugal has been in crisis since late 90s.

If you want to be cynnical you could say the country has been in crisis since the mid 1800s.

I thougth that after Caetano's removal the economy worked quite good...

[Vasconcelos]

I don't agree, it started when we joined the Euro. Before that, unemployment was very low.

If I'm not mistaken since 1997 the economy started to stall, even if unemplyment was low.




I thougth that after Caetano's removal the economy worked quite good...

Kind of the opposite, we almost always had in excess of 5% economic growth during the dictatorship, including during the Colonial War. It topped at 8 or 9% during the regime, if I'm not mistaken. This was with no external economical help, like EU funds nowsdays. The "economic problems" were essensially a God-awful wealth distribution that made most of the population poor and uneducated.

If the regime didn't get itself in a stupid and pointless war, distributed wealth properly amonst the population and had channeled funds into education there'd a very good chance Portugal would have an economy similar to other West Euro countries.


It seems Portugal doesn't fare very well in a democracy, from an economics point of view. Sad, but that's what it seems like.





http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DMsx9ciEkpM/TV5LHy27puI/AAAAAAAADHo/SUPX1J4n6h0/s1600/taxa_crescimento_pib.png
http://blasfemias.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tx-crescimento-pib-pc-por-govs.png

[Vasconcelos]

Here's a public debt graph, for comparison. PIB stand for GDP.


http://peixebanana1.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/divida-publica-portuguesa-1850-2010-_-valerio-e-mata-1994-e-ameco.png




By looking at these graphs, does anyone want to take a wild guess when democracy was implemented? lol

[Damião de Góis]

If I'm not mistaken since 1997 the economy started to stall, even if unemplyment was low.


First time i ever heard people complain was after we joined the Euro and left our old currency. At least where i live.

[Peyrol]

So, the Estado Novo wasn't bad at all...

[Damião de Góis]

So, the Estado Novo wasn't bad at all...

Yes it was. High illiteracy, torture, censorship or sending young men to die in Africa for decades are all trademarks of the Estado Novo.

[Vasconcelos]

So, the Estado Novo wasn't bad at all...

It was a dictatorship like any other (although from an international point of view some view it as "benevolent" because it wasnt nearly as violent as, for example, Spain's), but it had potential, although some very critical mistakes meant it'd die sooner or later.

The real problem wasn't it's fall, or even democracy, but the persons who followed, especially the pseudo-socialist super-structure created during the first years, that served as a basis for what we have today. Most of them are of dubious honestly, hiding behind an innoperative system crafted by themselves on purpose. It's a leech-ridden country, especially the elites.

[Peyrol]

Yes it was. High illiteracy, torture, censorship or sending young men to die in Africa for decades are all trademarks of the Estado Novo.

I sincerely never understood Salazar's and Caetano's obsession to keep Angola and Mozambico...why?

[Vasconcelos]

I sincerely never understood Salazar and Caetano obsession to keep Angola and Mozambico...why?

"Nationalism", they were considered "overseas provinces". The decolonization was a massive disaster aswell, something expected given the kind of people that led it.

[Damião de Góis]

I sincerely never understood Salazar's and Caetano's obsession to keep Angola and Mozambico...why?

Probably had to do with the money they invested there? My father was sent to Guiné-Bissau btw.
It was their downfall anyway. In 1974, the army rebelled and took dictatorship down.

[Vasconcelos]

Probably had to do with the money they invested there? My father was sent to Guiné-Bissau btw.
It was their downfall anyway. In 1974, the army rebelled and took dictatorship down.

Oh ouch, my father went to Moçambique but he always stayed at the HQs in big cities because he worked in communications. He never fired a single shot outisde the training bases in Portugal, nor were his bases ever even close to danger.

[Andarijo]

Excessive endogamy, strong immigration events of the smarter part of your population (very similar than Ireland), genetic heterogeneity, relative low iq (occasioned by historic immigration) and relax personality average, typical of the major part of southern europe.
Southern italians earn less than other western europeans but live better the life.

[Vasconcelos]

Excessive endogamy, strong immigration events of the smarter part of your population (very similar than Ireland), genetic heterogeneity, relative low iq (occasioned by historic immigration) and relax personality average, typical of the major part of southern europe.
Southern italians earn less than other western europeans but live better the life.

Any more stupid stereotypes, or are you all done?

[Andarijo]

Any more stupid stereotypes, or are you all done?


Stupid stereotypes???
LOL

So Why Southern Italy is poorer than the north??

Stereotypes can say many things...

[Vasconcelos]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Peyrol]

Stereotypes can say many things...

Do you wear a red thong when you dance samba at the Carnival?

[Andarijo]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Mental age??

[Vasconcelos]

Mental age??

I don't like ignorant trolls, fuck off, Brazuca.

[Andarijo]

Do you wear a red thong when you dance samba at the Carnival?

I'm not, thanks for Gooood!!

It is not as simple as you think. Besides, we are talking about the south of Italy, which is a region very ancient settlement. Brazil only has 500 years of life...
I'm not part of the AVERAGE BRAZILIAN

You got to understand now???

[RussiaPrussia]

because north was ruled by germans, south was ruled by spanish and arabs

[Andarijo]

I don't like ignorant trolls, fuck off, Brazuca.

I'm not TROLL... ignorant, probably

:D

Brazuca????
Ooooo nooooh, you can be racist and prejudiced with meeee,buaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...what Brazilians are more??? Tell me... love talk bad about my pretty country of heart.

Many southern europeans are very irrational tribalistic
If i'm tendentious with ''your'' equals, i'm ignorant trolls and like ''stereotypes''

If you are tendentious with my 'brilliant,, people so be right

[Peyrol]

because north was ruled by germans, south was ruled by spanish and arabs

Nope, except for 40 years and not at all. Piemont-Savoie never was under foreign rule, except by France for some times.

Germans, however, ruled the South for long long times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred,_King_of_Sicily

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohenstaufen

[P-Chan]

because north was ruled by germans, south was ruled by spanish and arabs

And Russia? Who ruled Russia? Its quality of life index is so bad that can't be compared in no way with Southern Italy.

[Andarijo]

And Russia? Who ruled Russia? Its quality of life index is so bad that can't be compared in no way with Southern Italy.

Russia is one of the most super power in the whole world.

[P-Chan]

Russia is one of the most super power in the whole world.

China is another super power, are Chinese people richer than Italians? No! And it's the same if we speak about Russia, a country where poverty is extremely widespreaded and where all the wealth is owned by a tiny portion of the population.

[RussiaPrussia]

Nope, except for 40 years and not at all. Piemont-Savoie never was under foreign rule, except by France for some times.

Germans, however, ruled the South for long long times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred,_King_of_Sicily

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohenstaufen

and during that time it was the strongest and richest region



And Russia? Who ruled Russia? Its quality of life index is so bad that can't be compared in no way with Southern Italy.

East Asian ruled russia who have higher IQ than you see my sig


Here see gdp per capita of russia is 22 thousand dollars (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/1W-RU?display=graph)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


Now compare following italian regions in US dollars

Italy ITE44 Latina 25,714
Italy ITE33 Macerata 25,586
Italy ITC34 La Spezia 25,534
Italy ITE34 Ascoli Piceno 25,414
Italy ITE21 Perugia 25,195
Italy ITE45 Frosinone 24,505
Italy ITC14 Verbano-Cusio-Ossola 24,268
Italy ITG29 Olbia-Tempio 24,064
Italy ITE22 Terni 23,953
Italy ITE41 Viterbo 23,842
Italy ITE42 Rieti 23,299
Italy ITE11 Massa-Carrara 23,275
Italy ITG27 Cagliari 22,822
Italy ITF11 L'Aquila 22,267
Italy ITF14 Chieti 22,041
Italy ITF12 Teramo 21,697
Italy ITF13 Pescara 21,472
Italy ITF22 Campobasso 20,311
Italy ITG26 Nuoro 19,649
Italy ITF51 Potenza 19,580
Italy ITG25 Sassari 19,204
Italy ITF21 Isernia 19,144
Italy ITF52 Matera 18,644
Italy ITF42 Bari 18,426
Italy ITF63 Catanzaro 18,380
Italy ITF35 Salerno 18,218
Italy ITF34 Avellino 18,144
Italy ITG18 Ragusa 18,008
Italy ITG19 Siracusa 17,982
Italy ITG28 Oristano 17,928
Italy ITG13 Messina 17,915
Italy ITG2A Ogliastra 17,566
Italy ITG12 Palermo 17,558
Italy ITG15 Caltanissetta 17,404
Italy ITF43 Taranto 17,353
Italy ITF32 Benevento 17,152
Italy ITF61 Cosenza 17,137
Italy ITG17 Catania 16,527
Italy ITF65 Reggio di Calabria 16,460
Italy ITF33 Napoli 16,438
Italy ITF45 Lecce 16,400
Italy ITF44 Brindisi 16,308
Italy ITF31 Caserta 16,190
Italy ITF64 Vibo Valentia 15,885
Italy ITG11 Trapani 15,816
Italy ITG16 Enna 15,669
Italy ITG2C Carbonia-Iglesias 15,567
Italy ITF41 Foggia 15,382
Italy ITF62 Crotone 15,052
Italy ITG14 Agrigento 14,531
Italy ITG2B Medio Campidano 14,457

[RussiaPrussia]

China is another super power, are Chinese people richer than Italians? No! And it's the same if we speak about Russia, a country where poverty is extremely widespreaded and where all the wealth is owned by a tiny portion of the population.

sounds like Italy

[Peyrol]

and during that time it was the strongest and richest region

Northern Italy? Nope, austrohungarian rule was short in Lombardy and Venice.

Here no-one single foreigner, except France, conquered us.

[American_Hispanist]

Russia is one of the most super power in the whole world.

Russia is nothing more than an oil banana republic to great similarity of how Mexico use to be during the 1970s. Watch how when Oil goes down, Russia also goes down.

[P-Chan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


Now compare following italian regions in US dollars

Italy ITE44 Latina 25,714
Italy ITE33 Macerata 25,586
Italy ITC34 La Spezia 25,534
Italy ITE34 Ascoli Piceno 25,414
Italy ITE21 Perugia 25,195
Italy ITE45 Frosinone 24,505
Italy ITC14 Verbano-Cusio-Ossola 24,268
Italy ITG29 Olbia-Tempio 24,064
Italy ITE22 Terni 23,953
Italy ITE41 Viterbo 23,842
Italy ITE42 Rieti 23,299
Italy ITE11 Massa-Carrara 23,275
Italy ITG27 Cagliari 22,822
Italy ITF11 L'Aquila 22,267
Italy ITF14 Chieti 22,041
Italy ITF12 Teramo 21,697
Italy ITF13 Pescara 21,472
Italy ITF22 Campobasso 20,311
Italy ITG26 Nuoro 19,649
Italy ITF51 Potenza 19,580
Italy ITG25 Sassari 19,204
Italy ITF21 Isernia 19,144
Italy ITF52 Matera 18,644
Italy ITF42 Bari 18,426
Italy ITF63 Catanzaro 18,380
Italy ITF35 Salerno 18,218
Italy ITF34 Avellino 18,144
Italy ITG18 Ragusa 18,008
Italy ITG19 Siracusa 17,982
Italy ITG28 Oristano 17,928
Italy ITG13 Messina 17,915
Italy ITG2A Ogliastra 17,566
Italy ITG12 Palermo 17,558
Italy ITG15 Caltanissetta 17,404
Italy ITF43 Taranto 17,353
Italy ITF32 Benevento 17,152
Italy ITF61 Cosenza 17,137
Italy ITG17 Catania 16,527
Italy ITF65 Reggio di Calabria 16,460
Italy ITF33 Napoli 16,438
Italy ITF45 Lecce 16,400
Italy ITF44 Brindisi 16,308
Italy ITF31 Caserta 16,190
Italy ITF64 Vibo Valentia 15,885
Italy ITG11 Trapani 15,816
Italy ITG16 Enna 15,669
Italy ITG2C Carbonia-Iglesias 15,567
Italy ITF41 Foggia 15,382
Italy ITF62 Crotone 15,052
Italy ITG14 Agrigento 14,531
Italy ITG2B Medio Campidano 14,457


LOL, I don't see any sense in comparing the GDP of a whole country (Russia) and others of provinces (Italy)....why don't you list Regional GDP of Russia? I'd like to see if Kamchatka is richer than Apulia or even Calabria.

Ah...and the list of Italian provinces shows the GDP (PPP) per capita in Euro!





East Asian ruled russia who have higher IQ than you see my sig



ROFL

[Vasconcelos]

Being a super power while the people starves doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

[RussiaPrussia]

LOL, I don't see any sense in comparing the GDP of a whole country (Russia) and others of provinces (Italy)....why don't you list Regional GDP of Russia? I'd like to see if Kamchatka is richer than Apulia or even Calabria.





ROFL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_federal_subjects_by_GDP_per_capita

yes some regions are richer than any italian region like moscow, and its 11 million people which is a sixth of your country

[RussiaPrussia]

Being a super power while the people starves doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

no one is starving in russia :picard1:, we have 5% unemployment you have 10% unemployed. You have 120% Debt we have 10% :picard1:

[P-Chan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_federal_subjects_by_GDP_per_capita

yes some regions are richer than any italian region like moscow, and its 11 million people which is a sixth of your country

convert them into Euro, genius!

[RussiaPrussia]

Russia is nothing more than an oil banana republic to great similarity of how Mexico use to be during the 1970s. Watch how when Oil goes down, Russia also goes down.

Oil prices fell to 40 dollars

http://www.finanzen.net/rohstoffe/oelpreis/Chart

in 2009 and remained very low in comparison to 2008 which was 140 dollars :picard1: and is russia collapsing? How mexico used to be in the 70s? You mean how mexico still is in compairson to russia

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/RU-MX?display=graph


Russia has even more manufacturing output than your mexico plus all these resources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing#Countries_by_Manufacturing_output_us ing_the_most_recent_known_Data

[American_Hispanist]

Oil prices fell to 40 dollars

http://www.finanzen.net/rohstoffe/oelpreis/Chart

in 2009 and remained very low in comparison to 2008 which was 140 dollars :picard1: and is russia collapsing? How mexico used to be in the 70s? You mean how mexico still is in compairson to russia

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/RU-MX?display=graph


Russia has even more manufacturing output than your mexico plus all these resources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing#Countries_by_Manufacturing_output_us ing_the_most_recent_known_Data

Mexico in the 1970s was a banana republic that had a similar political structure to how Russia has now. Mexico has a healthier economy than Russia. even The Economist thinks that too.

[Peyrol]

no one is starving in russia :picard1:, we have 5% unemployment you have 10% unemployed. You have 120% Debt we have 10% :picard1:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_Index




1 Ireland 8.333
2 Switzerland 8.068
3 Norway 8.051
4 Luxembourg 8.015
5 Sweden 7.937
6 Australia 7.925
7 Iceland 7.911
8 Italy 7.810
9 Denmark 7.797
10 Spain 7.727
11 Singapore 7.719
12 Finland 7.618
13 United States 7.615
14 Canada 7.599
15 New Zealand 7.436
16 Netherlands 7.433
17 Japan 7.392
18 Hong Kong 7.347
19 Portugal 7.307
20 Austria


..c'mon...

[Cristiano viejo]

because north was ruled by germans, south was ruled by spanish and arabs

North also was ruled by Spain http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducato_di_Milano#Il_.C2.ABperiodo_spagnolo.C2.BB_. 281535-1706.29

Il Ducato di Milano (1395-1797) fu un antico Stato dell'Italia settentrionale che comprendeva, al momento della sua costituzione, gran parte dell'attuale Lombardia e porzioni delle regioni Piemonte, Veneto, Emilia-Romagna e Toscana, oltre al Canton Ticino e alla Mesolcina oggi in Svizzera.


but but three things are funny,
first, that you blame Spain of the poverty of the South of Italy, when Spain is a country more rich than Russia and more than half Europe.
second, it has been almost 300 years, it´s time to removing to Spain what happens in Italy, Peru or anywhere that was ruled by us.
third, that South Italy is more rich than Russia and more than half Europe too xD. If South Italy is poor because was ruled by Spain, what should be the reason for poverty in Russia, Estonia, Czech Republic, Serbia......................?

[Vasconcelos]

no one is starving in russia :picard1:, we have 5% unemployment you have 10% unemployed. You have 120% Debt we have 10% :picard1:

Right lol

[Peyrol]

Btw, smarter europeans are the Forlans (northeastern Italy), not the russians, lol

http://jayman.blog.com/2012/01/17/iq-ceilings/

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1701/europeiq1200.png

[RussiaPrussia]

Mexico in the 1970s was a banana republic that had a similar political structure to how Russia has now. Mexico has a healthier economy than Russia. even The Economist thinks that too.

the economist is russophobic, youre american colony thats why they are giving you more credit.

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2637/unbenanntqjdh.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img843/6758/10668657.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Quotient

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2013/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=76&pr.y=11&sy=2011&ey=2012&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=273%2C922&s=GGXWDG_NGDP%2CBCA&grp=0&a=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-exchange_reserves#List_of_sovereign_states_by_fore ign-exchange_reserves

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/GINI_retouched_legend.gif

Healthier economy my ass

[RussiaPrussia]

Btw, smarter europeans are the Forlans (northeastern Italy), not the russians, lol

http://jayman.blog.com/2012/01/17/iq-ceilings/

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1701/europeiq1200.png

You do realize that the guy who this map made it based on richard lynch data plus some education data or study. based on the new study i found (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?80825-East-Asian-and-Russian-Students-are-the-smartest-according-to-a-study) i can do my own map too

http://imageshack.us/a/img94/2097/mathvg.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img12/1586/nationaliqlynnvanhanen2.png


Patents granted also indicate that

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2637/unbenanntqjdh.png


North also was ruled by Spain http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducato_di_Milano#Il_.C2.ABperiodo_spagnolo.C2.BB_. 281535-1706.29


but but three things are funny,
first, that you blame Spain of the poverty of the South of Italy, when Spain is a country more rich than Russia and more than half Europe.
second, it has been almost 300 years, it´s time to removing to Spain what happens in Italy, Peru or anywhere that was ruled by us.
third, that South Italy is more rich than Russia and more than half Europe too xD. If South Italy is poor because was ruled by Spain, what should be the reason for poverty in Russia, Estonia, Czech Republic, Serbia......................?

First of all why you do like being entirely european country makes in any way better than russia which is bordering china, japan and Korea who are more advanced civillisations than you? Second southern italy isnt richer than russia stop lieng around data clearly proves it has as high gdp per capita or even below most regions.

And so what? you had an entire empire in latin america which is today for the most part poorer than serbia, czech and slovak republics and so on..

[Vasconcelos]

Ooooo nooooh, you can be racist and prejudiced with meeee,buaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...what Brazilians are more??? Tell me... love talk bad about my pretty country of heart.

Many southern europeans are very irrational tribalistic
If i'm tendentious with ''your'' equals, i'm ignorant trolls and like ''stereotypes''

If you are tendentious with my 'brilliant,, people so be right

http://www.neilstuff.com/arch/2007-07/authentic-frontier-gibberish.jpg

[Andarijo]

China is another super power, are Chinese people richer than Italians? No! And it's the same if we speak about Russia, a country where poverty is extremely widespreaded and where all the wealth is owned by a tiny portion of the population.

In terms of quality of life is evident that southern Italy is much better than China. But China is China ...

[Andarijo]

http://www.neilstuff.com/arch/2007-07/authentic-frontier-gibberish.jpg

:cool:

[Peyrol]

These are maps about year 2011 and only about maths, not an average.

But if you like to hear ''Russia better country 'n teh world, all the other countries are ruled by little girls''...ok, i can write this with a notarial deed, ok?



You do realize that the guy who this map made it based on richard lynch data plus some education data or study. based on the new study i found (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?80825-East-Asian-and-Russian-Students-are-the-smartest-according-to-a-study) i can do my own map too

http://imageshack.us/a/img94/2097/mathvg.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img12/1586/nationaliqlynnvanhanen2.png


Patents granted also indicate that

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2637/unbenanntqjdh.png



First of all why you do like being entirely european country makes in any way better than russia which is bordering china, japan and Korea who are more advanced civillisations than you? Second southern italy isnt richer than russia stop lieng around data clearly proves it has as high gdp per capita or even below most regions.

And so what? you had an entire empire in latin america which is today for the most part poorer than serbia, czech and slovak republics and so on..

[Andarijo]

Russia is nothing more than an oil banana republic to great similarity of how Mexico use to be during the 1970s. Watch how when Oil goes down, Russia also goes down.


In the world, Russia is the second largest power, mainly for its military hegemony. The world's second largest.

[P-Chan]

Second southern italy isnt richer than russia stop lieng around data clearly proves it has as high gdp per capita or even below most regions.



These are links you've posted before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_federal_subjects_by_GDP_per_capita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


first of all OECD regions GDPs are calculated in Euro though it's written dollars, secondly the poorest provinces of southern Italy you have listed before are comparable to Eastern European countries while poorest Russians one with Iraq! Can't you read the comparisons? Look at the links!

[RussiaPrussia]

first of all OECD regions GDPs are calculated in Euro though it's written dollars, secondly the poorest provinces of southern Italy you have listed before are comparable to Eastern European countries while poorest Russians one with Iraq! Can't you read the comparisons? Look at the links!

if you count in euro it doesnt make any differences, and if you use ppp its always international dollar which some other currency not dollar. :picard1:

[P-Chan]

if you count in euro it doesnt make any differences, and if you use ppp its always international dollar which some other currency not dollar. :picard1:




SOUTHERN ITALIAN REGIONS GDP per capita (2008):

Sardinia : €19,700 = $25,621

Apulia : €16,900 = $21,980

Sicily : €16,600 = $21,589

Campania : €16,400 = $21,329

Calabria : €16,400 = $21,329


Russia GDP per capita (2008): $14,600
(2012) $14,247







The two poorest Italian provinces and current equivalent OECD provinces:

Portugal PT116 Entre Douro E Vouga
Italy ITG14 Agrigento
Czech Republic CZ041 Karlovarský
Italy ITG2B Medio Campidano
Hungary HU102 Pest


The two poorest Russian republics and curret equivalent countries:

Chechnya Bhutan
Ingushetia Iraq



Sources: your links.

[Wolf]

If you want to be cynnical you could say the country has been in crisis since the mid 1800s.

If you want to be more cynical you could say that Portugal has been in crisis since the personal union with Spain from 1580 to 1640.



and during that time it was the strongest and richest region

There's some truth in it, under Frederick II the Kingdom of Sicily was the most advanced state in Europe.



what should be the reason for poverty in Russia, Estonia, Czech Republic, Serbia......................?

Communism?!



SOUTHERN ITALIAN REGIONS GDP per capita (2008):

Sardinia : €19,700 = $25,621

Apulia : €16,900 = $21,980

Sicily : €16,600 = $21,589

Campania : €16,400 = $21,329

Calabria : €16,400 = $21,329


Russia GDP per capita (2012): $14,247
(2008): $14,600

It's quite unfair to compare single regions with a whole country. It would be more useful to compare regions with regions.

[P-Chan]

It's quite unfair to compare single regions with a whole country. It would be more useful to compare regions with regions.

Is it unfair? That russian user has begun comparing a whole country (Russia) with Southern Italian provinces.



But we can also easily compare regions:


Italian southern Regions GDP (2008):
Sardinia $25,621
Apulia $21,980
Sicily $21,589
Campania $21,329
Calabria $21,329

And current equivalent Russian ones (2009):
St.Petersburg $25,277
Tatarstan $23,290
Komi Republic $22,335
Leningrad Oblast $21,549


well Sardinia has a GDP per capita comparable to the 5th richest Russian region, Calabria with the 8th richest Russian one.

And Russia is divided into 80 federal subjetcs!!

So, if the poorest Italian region has a GDP per capita like the 8th richest Russian federal subject, is Russia richer than Southern Italy? The answer is NO.

[Andarijo]

SOUTHERN ITALIAN REGIONS GDP per capita (2008):

Sardinia : €19,700 = $25,621

Apulia : €16,900 = $21,980

Sicily : €16,600 = $21,589

Campania : €16,400 = $21,329

Calabria : €16,400 = $21,329


Russia GDP per capita (2008): $14,600
(2012) $14,247







The two poorest Italian provinces and current equivalent OECD provinces:

Portugal PT116 Entre Douro E Vouga
Italy ITG14 Agrigento
Czech Republic CZ041 Karlovarský
Italy ITG2B Medio Campidano
Hungary HU102 Pest


The two poorest Russian republics and curret equivalent countries:

Chechnya Bhutan
Ingushetia Iraq



Sources: your links.

Russia have 140 million people, how the GDP of Moscow or St Petersburg areas??
The difference bettween whole Russia and some italian 'regione' do not much big.

The poorest russian regions aren't ethnic slavic.

[P-Chan]

Russia have 140 million people, how the GDP of Moscow or St Petersburg areas??
The difference bettween whole Russia and some italian 'regione' do not much big.

The poorest russian regions aren't ethnic slavic.

Didn't you read my last post in page 16? Why are you attempting to demonstrate senseless statements if I' ve already answered with unquestionable informations?







Italian southern Regions GDP (2008):
Sardinia $25,621
Apulia $21,980
Sicily $21,589
Campania $21,329
Calabria $21,329

And current equivalent Russian ones (2009):
St.Petersburg $25,277
Tatarstan $23,290
Komi Republic $22,335
Leningrad Oblast $21,549


well Sardinia has a GDP per capita comparable to the 5th richest Russian region, Calabria with the 8th richest Russian one.

And Russia is divided into 80 federal subjetcs!!

So, if the poorest Italian region has a GDP per capita like the 8th richest Russian federal subject, is Russia richer than Southern Italy? The answer is NO.

[riverman]

It's racial

[Andarijo]

Didn't you read my last post in page 16? Why are you attempting to demonstrate senseless statements if I' ve already answered with unquestionable informations?

But their claims are questionable. You are comparing two regions of distinct magnitudes. You are comparing a giant country with a past and quite complicated with a region, much smaller in size and population and has gone through half a century of possibilities and does not have any advantage.
Likewise it is different you compare Mongolia with southern Italy.

Income differences between Russia WHOLE, and Southern Italy are not large
Russia is a heterogeneous country in terms of ethnic, cultural and religious compared with Italy
The poorest regions of Russia are mostly non-ethnic Russian or Slavic while the poorest regions of Italy white and Catholic, are full of Italians.
Moscow and St. Petersburg may present a per capita income higher or equal than the average of southern Italy

You are comparing the wrong values​​. I keep thinking that southern Europeans take life in a more quiet and relaxed than their European counterparts.

While I partially agree with your comparisons, again, you despise several factors that have great influence on the final results.
Russia is a very large country with a very large population and southern Italy not.
I believe it is easier to manage a small country than a large country.
The differences between southern Italy and Russia in income are particularly despicable and taking into account that the second is growing faster than the first then its proof
'' South of Italy is richer than Russia'' will not last for many years.

Did you use a single statistic, the per capita income.
For instance, GDP in the Russians now are much richer than the South of Italy.
The main topic of this post is not'' Russians versus southern Italian'' but
'' Northern Italian versus southern Italian''

[P-Chan]

But their claims are questionable. You are comparing two regions of distinct magnitudes. You are comparing a giant country with a past and quite complicated with a region, much smaller in size and population and has gone through half a century of possibilities and does not have any advantage.
Likewise it is different you compare Mongolia with southern Italy.

Income differences between Russia WHOLE, and Southern Italy are not large
Russia is a heterogeneous country in terms of ethnic, cultural and religious compared with Italy
The poorest regions of Russia are mostly non-ethnic Russian or Slavic while the poorest regions of Italy white and Catholic, are full of Italians.
Moscow and St. Petersburg may present a per capita income higher or equal than the average of southern Italy

You are comparing the wrong values​​. I keep thinking that southern Europeans take life in a more quiet and relaxed than their European counterparts.

While I partially agree with your comparisons, again, you despise several factors that have great influence on the final results.
Russia is a very large country with a very large population and southern Italy not.
I believe it is easier to manage a small country than a large country.
The differences between southern Italy and Russia in income are particularly despicable and taking into account that the second is growing faster than the first then its proof
'' South of Italy is richer than Russia'' will not last for many years.

Did you use a single statistic, the per capita income.
For instance, GDP in the Russians now are much richer than the South of Italy.
The main topic of this post is not'' Russians versus southern Italian'' but
'' Northern Italian versus southern Italian''



Can't you read? I' ve written three times that Sardinia Island (a region geographically located in the south of Italy) has a GDP income per capita higher than Saint Petersburg area.
And the poorest regions of Italy, Calabria and Campania, have a GDP income per capita enormously higher than the avarage GDP per capita of Russia.

What else should I say?

Russia is a power if we speak about GDP, it has a very great gross domestic product because it's one of the most populated and biggest countries in the world, and it's the same if we speak about India or even Nigeria!
But its people on avarage is poor if compared to every country of western Europe! Quality of life, life expectancy and personal income are extremely lower than in any area of Southern Italy.

[Andarijo]

Can't you read? I' ve written three times that Sardinia Island (a region geographically located in the south of Italy) has a GDP income per capita higher than Saint Petersburg area.
And the poorest regions of Italy, Calabria and Campania, have a GDP income per capita enormously higher than the avarage GDP per capita of Russia.

What else should I say?

Russia is a power if we speak about GDP, it has a very great gross domestic product because it's one of the most populated and biggest countries in the world, and it's the same if we speak about India or even Nigeria!
But its people on avarage is poor if compared to every country of western Europe! Quality of life, life expectancy and personal income are extremely lower than in any area of Southern Italy.

Where are you going?
What I was arguing with you about the use of per capita income, to `` prove `` that southern Italy is richer than Russia. If you wanted to prove that southern Italy is better then that Russia used the male life expectancy as a comparison. Russians would look like a third world country.
This discussion has been too long, now you tell us why Southern Italy is poorer than the north.
;)

[P-Chan]

Where are you going?
What I was arguing with you about the use of per capita income, to `` prove `` that southern Italy is richer than Russia. If you wanted to prove that southern Italy is better then that Russia used the male life expectancy as a comparison. Russians would look like a third world country.
This discussion has been too long, now you tell us why Southern Italy is poorer than the north.
;)


What? I didn't start the debate S.Italy/Russia! But I can't conceive that anyone could really think that Russian people are on avarage wealthier than Southern Italy ihnabitants. It's simply absurd.... have you ever been to Russia?

While about Southern Italy "poverty", the reason has been already explained. Lack of infrastructures, isolation and in some regions the presence of criminal organizations and widespread corruption.

[riverman]

What? I didn't start the debate S.Italy/Russia! But I can't conceive that anyone could really think that Russian people are on avarage wealthier than Southern Italy ihnabitants. It's simply absurd.... have you ever been to Russia?

While about Southern Italy "poverty", the reason has been already explained. Lack of infrastructures, isolation and in some regions the presence of criminal organizations and widespread corruption.

There's a lack of infrastructure in my sock drawer

[Andarijo]

What? I didn't start the debate S.Italy/Russia! But I can't conceive that anyone could really think that Russian people are on avarage wealthier than Southern Italy ihnabitants. It's simply absurd.... have you ever been to Russia?

While about Southern Italy "poverty", the reason has been already explained. Lack of infrastructures, isolation and in some regions the presence of criminal organizations and widespread corruption.

The origin of many problems begins in the people. For example, in Brazil the majority of politicals are corrupt, but, the majority of ordinary brazilian people will turn corrupt if were in the place of politicals.
In Brazil we have similar problems, guilty of government?
Pay scandinavian taxes for african services

Your debate about the ''poverty'' in south Italy finnish when genetic factors are also studied.

Why brazilian people are less inteligent and have corrupt tendencies??
Is the X of a question

[P-Chan]

Your debate about the ''poverty'' in south Italy finnish when genetic factors are also studied.

Why brazilian people are less inteligent and have corrupt tendencies??
Is the X of a question


Do you mean that Southern Italy is under developed due to the genetics of its ihnabitants?!? hahah

[Vasconcelos]

One has to be extremely narrowminded to think it has anything to do with "genetic" factors. :picard1:

[Andarijo]

One has to be extremely narrowminded to think it has anything to do with "genetic" factors. :picard1:


Genetic factors, as intelligence and personality are inherited, are not wanted by the majority of southern Europe, which exhibit some claim to HBD because it suits them.
It is a thought of pure tribalism. I speak bad (but speak truth) of your family and you attack me in the style to be Marxist, ad hominem.
The southern European hbd's pretentious, people left, the religious fanatics (because there are those who are not religious fanatics) are collectivist tribes, corrupt, inter-altruistic and most importantly, irrational. It does not matter if it makes sense, fits interested in their dogmas.
Some people are exhagerated sensitive, To be a scientist amateur or professional, should be almost a psychopath, cold and neutral. Like a rock.

[Vasconcelos]

Jesus Christ I have no idea what you just said.

[Andarijo]

I look and I am predominantly southern Europe. But I do not care to admit that part of my heritage, has suffered recent dysgenic effects.
Intelligence is a trait that exists worldwide. A black is not less to white than the same way as a lizard is not less than a cheap, they are different in their adjusted means. White is slightly higher than the black because it has for centuries practiced eugenics, such as Asians.
The Southern Italians are not inferior to northern Italians are different (or not so much) and adapted to their means. Pollution and earn more money is don't better than having a life with balanced diet and prioritize the mental and spiritual well being. Many people like most southern Europeans live life according to the waves of the sea, in a natural way, while northern Europeans live antromorficamente artificial way, always trying to break the rhythm of the waves.
I read in the philosophy of Aristotle to be happy is to live as much of their nature.

[Peyrol]

Genetic factors, as intelligence and personality are inherited, are not wanted by the majority of southern Europe, which exhibit some claim to HBD because it suits them.
It is a thought of pure tribalism. I speak bad (but speak truth) of your family and you attack me in the style to be Marxist, ad hominem.
The southern European hbd's pretentious, people left, the religious fanatics (because there are those who are not religious fanatics) are collectivist tribes, corrupt, inter-altruistic and most importantly, irrational. It does not matter if it makes sense, fits interested in their dogmas.
Some people are exhagerated sensitive, To be a scientist amateur or professional, should be almost a psychopath, cold and neutral. Like a rock.

Too bad that the smarter europeans are the forlan people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language), northeastern italics...:lol:

[Balmung]

...and that's why they (southerners) compose 60-65% of northern italian population.



So northern Italians are basically mostly Sicilians now? WHY GOD WHY!?!?!

[Peyrol]

So northern Italians are basically mostly Sicilians now? WHY GOD WHY!?!?!

Because of the internal migration of the 50s-60s, quite similar to your african american ''Great Migration'', but more intensive and consistent in numbers...Northern Italy absorbet millions of southern immigrants in our industries (FIAT, Pirelli, Maserati, Kinder-Ferrero, Ansaldo, Barilla, etc)...especially here in Piemonte, in Liguria and in Lombardy, this immigration literally ''raped'' the ethnic composition...that's why Piemont is only 40% piemontese, Lombardy is only 27% ethnic lombard and Friuli is only 60% forlan/rhaetoromance...

Here the map of non-natives by single provinces...as you can see, here (Northwest) we're pretty fucked...and the map include only italic people and not recent immigrants...

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg

[P-Chan]

One has to be extremely narrowminded to think it has anything to do with "genetic" factors. :picard1:

yes, it's funny that someone use to speak about genetics....those persons should study history. History is not static, an ethnicity can be smart and advanced during a specific era and then turn into poverty and backwardness or vice versa. Germanics 2000 years ago were considered illiterate barbarians, now Germany is the 1st economy of the EU; 3000 years ago Iraq was the heart of human civilization and now it's only a 3rd world country; and I can make hundred more examples.

[Andarijo]

yes, it's funny that someone use to speak about genetics....those persons should study history. History is not static, an ethnicity can be smart and advanced during a specific era and then turn into poverty and backwardness or vice versa. Germanics 2000 years ago were considered illiterate barbarians, now Germany is the 1st economy of the EU; 3000 years ago Iraq was the heart of human civilization and now it's only a 3rd world country; and I can make hundred more examples.

Civilization is a product of the higher intelligence but don't necessarily conected.
Daily priorities, personality type average (older europeans was probably more tribalistic and less 'intelectual' than today's) and lower iq can explain this ancient disparities.
''Germanic'' tribes turn more smarther than southern europeans, because the last group suffered with dysgenics effects for more generations like wars, invasions, dysgenic demography. Civilizations appear firstly in Middle East and Southern Europe and drained the average higher intelligence. People with higher intelligence are dysgenic behaviour tendentious.
The probably unique survivors this ''classicals'' events was the ashkenazi jews.
Higher Civilization is a great dysgenic event.

[Prince Carlo]

A nigger talking about the correlation between intelligence and genetics. Go eat some bananas. LOL.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/National_IQ_Lynn_Vanhanen_2006_IQ_and_Global_Inequ ality.png

[Empecinado]

Because of the internal migration of the 50s-60s, quite similar to your african american ''Great Migration'', but more intensive and consistent in numbers...Northern Italy absorbet millions of southern immigrants in our industries (FIAT, Pirelli, Maserati, Kinder-Ferrero, Ansaldo, Barilla, etc)...especially here in Piemonte, in Liguria and in Lombardy, this immigration literally ''raped'' the ethnic composition...that's why Piemont is only 40% piemontese, Lombardy is only 27% ethnic lombard and Friuli is only 60% forlan/rhaetoromance...

Here the map of non-natives by single provinces...as you can see, here (Northwest) we're pretty fucked...and the map include only italic people and not recent immigrants...

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg

It happened in all countries with an unequal distribution of industrialization, in Spain in the 60s happened the same, many towns became 100% depopulated when its inhabitants migrated to the industrial centers, also in Japan which used to have many dialects but after its internal migrations dissapeared.

[Vasconcelos]

Turkish/ mourish dumb south europin,kkkkkkkk

Margareth Sanger, you had reason!!!

Please do humanity a favour and stop posting here.

[Wolf]

You should both stop destroying the thread!

That's not very useful.

[Peyrol]

OT deleted, now stay on topic please.

...and Andarijo, stop with your interventi imbecilli, please.

[American_Hispanist]

I suspect Andarijo is a troll who wants to put down Southern Europeans.

[Gaijin]

It has to do with a process entitled Industrialization.
The North indicted a growth as to urbanization, whereas the South did not.
http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/WRLH035-H.gif

[denz]

Well, because there are easy going. It depend on your point of life view. If you tell that they are not industrialized as northern, might be. But i consider them better condition then milano etc.

[Peyrol]

Well, because there are easy going. It depend on your point of life view. If you tell that they are not industrialized as northern, might be. But i consider them better condition then milano etc.

Lol, are you serious?

The south better than Milano?

[Nico]

I know many southern Italians (from America and Italy) and they really don't care about other Italians. I know Italians have great pride in their heritage and communities, but when it comes to working together they really don't have an interest in it. They are so highly individualistic and envious of each other that it prevents them from having a wealthy society of their own. Also, there is not enough good education in the south, and the mafia has very significant control over the south as well which prevents a lot of development.

[Peyrol]

I know many southern Italians (from America and Italy) and they really don't care about other Italians. I know Italians have great pride in their heritage and communities, but when it comes to working together they really don't have an interest in it. They are so highly individualistic and envious of each other that it prevents them from having a wealthy society of their own. Also, there is not enough good education in the south, and the mafia has very significant control over the south as well which prevents a lot of development.

What do you expect from an artificial country built 152 years ago?

[Daniele90]

Btw, i've to admit that some southern italia cities, even if i'll never would live there, have a magnetic attraction (too different world than here)...Naples for example has a strange charm...

Probably our weakness is also our strenght...the heavy internal cultural difference...

...from these places (my region)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL5pQTuZYE4


...to this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoNmdVmWoI
I like some sort of co-operation between North and South, despite our differences :)
Anyways, and I say it from a neutral point of view, that causes are to be found in this "unification of Italy" which meant a centralisation of economy in determinate parts of Italy, which has caused a difference in mentality and economy; anyways I have nothing against the north, I just hate some primitive generalisations Northerners do on all Southerners, also because Mafia is a originated from THAT unification, actually is a product of this centralised state, and has only been a problem for common Southerners .. South has a lot of problems, and I'm the first to admit that I prefer a more Mitteleuropean way of thinking, but the good news is is that things are moving in a more "normal" direction, and the youth and the middle classes are often not anymore the ones of our grandparents that sometimes could be seen as more "rudimentary", it's true; at this point I would just like economical equality between those two parts, and I'm ready to fight against others for things,but I think South and North must unite to fight the troubled Italy is becoming and will become in the next years; let's stop bitching once for all, and I say it from both sides ;)

[Daniele90]

Because of the internal migration of the 50s-60s, quite similar to your african american ''Great Migration'', but more intensive and consistent in numbers...Northern Italy absorbet millions of southern immigrants in our industries (FIAT, Pirelli, Maserati, Kinder-Ferrero, Ansaldo, Barilla, etc)...especially here in Piemonte, in Liguria and in Lombardy, this immigration literally ''raped'' the ethnic composition...that's why Piemont is only 40% piemontese, Lombardy is only 27% ethnic lombard and Friuli is only 60% forlan/rhaetoromance...

Here the map of non-natives by single provinces...as you can see, here (Northwest) we're pretty fucked...and the map include only italic people and not recent immigrants...

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/4293/mappamigrazioniinterne.jpg
Well, still we are more similar to each other, and IMO many Southerners do not look extremely different; eventually the mix between Northerners and Southerners in most cases give good looking people.. IMO people mix up a bit eventually, it has always happened in history..

[Black Wolf]

Which region is considered the poorest in all of Italy? Is it Calabria?

[Prince Carlo]

Which region is considered the poorest in all of Italy? Is it Calabria?

Yes I think so.

[Black Wolf]

Yes I think so.

Thanks for the reply Joe....I find it quite interesting actually that my paternal great grandfather was actually literate before he immigrated to North America. Apparently kids in the town called Aprigliano in Calabria that he grew up in actually went to school for a while when they were young and learned to read and write. Most Southern Italians immigrants of that time surely were illiterate. He immigrated to North America in the early 1900s.

[Prince Carlo]

Thanks for the reply Joe....I find it quite interesting actually that my paternal great grandfather was actually literate before he immigrated to North America. Apparently kids in the town called Aprigliano in Calabria that he grew up in actually went to school for a while when they were young and learned to read and write. Most Southern Italians immigrants of that time surely were illiterate. He immigrated to North America in the early 1900s.

When did he leave Italy? Nowadays literacy rate is close to 100% in the South.

[Black Wolf]

When did he leave Italy? Nowadays literacy rate is close to 100% in the South.

My great grandfather left Italy for the first time in 1903 I believe.

[Black Wolf]

Which is why I find it interesting that he was literate.

[Scandalf]

In terms of GDP per capita maps it doesn't show, and California comes out as a rich state. In fact North America shows up as much richer than Europe in general if we are going to measure this by GDP per capita.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_glance-2011-en/images/graphics/6-6_americas.gif

Poor Mississippi :(
I always thought Alabama was the worst (Forest Gump might be proud).

[bimo]

unfortunately today also north italy is in the fast way to become poor

[Scandalf]

Thank you for that clue, but why did later attempts to industrialize Southern Italy after WWII fail?

*"Cough"*...Operation Husky*"cough"*...Lucky Luciano*"cough"*...Allies reinstalled the old mafia families that the "Iron Prefect" Mori was trying to get rid of*"cough"*

[Scandalf]

Which region is considered the poorest in all of Italy? Is it Calabria?

A Calabrese friend of mines told me it is surely the worst to live in. It's sad cause there are beautiful natural environments there (for some things I prefer visiting that place over Sicily).

[Black Wolf]

A Calabrese friend of mines told me it is surely the worst to live in. It's sad cause there are beautiful natural environments there (for some things I prefer visiting that place over Sicily).

Well I know that most of it is dominated by the 'Ndrangheta now. The natural environment and rural areas are truly beautiful though yes! :)

[istripador]

north and south of Italy looks much the case of the Brazil! you only that the south is much more developed than the north, mass migration the north to the south, the south pays taxes across the nation

[Wolf]

north and south of Italy looks much the case of the Brazil! you only that the south is much more developed than the north, mass migration the north to the south, the south pays taxes across the nation

Maybe secession could be an option. :rolleyes:

[Prince Carlo]

Maybe secession could be an option. :rolleyes:

What do you think about separating poor East and North Germany from the rich South?

[Rudel]

Almost all Southern Italian regions have a GDP that is 75% lower than the EU average. Until now, several attempts were made to solve this problem, but all of them finally failed.

I have found some reasons for this issue:


lack of ressources
lack of industry
no land-reform
peripheral location
organized crime


What do you think, do you have another explanations?
- Jews
- Freemasons
- Crab People
- Everything went wrong after the annexation of the Two Sicilies.

[Wolf]

What do you think about separating poor East and North Germany from the rich South?

Not a good idea, there're already enough German states, we don't need another one.


BTW, I actually referred to Brazil.



- Jews
- Free-masons

Do you mean that Southern Italy had not enough of them?

[istripador]

Maybe secession would be an option. :rolleyes:

center west of the country and the state of sao paulo is already dominated by Northeasterners and northern miners lesser degree

[Prince Carlo]

- Jews
- Free-masons
- Everything went wrong after the annexation of the Two Sicilies.

The problem is cultural and ethnic, since North Italians were greatly influenced, in almost every aspect, by the Hard Working Austrians/Swiss. That's also why the Catholic Ireland is soo poor compared to the Protestant Germanic England.

[Wolf]

That's also why the Catholic Ireland is soo poor compared to the Protestant Germanic England.

Strong religiousness often correlates with poverty.

[Scandalf]

Strong religiousness often correlates with poverty.

And ignorance, and sheep mentality, and entitlement to smartass useless motherfuckers...

[Wolf]

And ignorance, and sheep mentality, and entitlement to smartass useless motherfuckers...

;)

Do you want to imply something?

[Rudel]

Do you mean that Southern Italy had not enough of them?
I was just making a joke about the eternal judeo-massonic conspiracy. But not everyone has my kind of humor.


The problem is cultural and ethnic, since North Italians were greatly influenced, in almost every aspect, by the Hard Working Austrians/Swiss. That's also why the Catholic Ireland is soo poor compared to the Protestant Germanic England.
A hard-working Swiss ? Hahahahahaha.

This is utter bullshit. Anyone making claims about "the superior work ethic of the Germanic race" (or similarly of the Protestant religion) has their head up their ass and is too much of a slacker to think things through without essentializing.
The Révolution and Bonaparte introduced liberalism and reforms in Northern Italy ("liberalism" is a word than compasses philosophy, ethics, politics, economics and more) but it never took hold in the South.
That's much more important than whatever retarded ethnic or religious "issues".

[istripador]

Maybe secession could be an option. :rolleyes:

Brazil also has a severe income inequality, agrarian reform slow cities inflated because of the mass immigration (creating slums, periphery) from the inside to capitals and the north to the south

[Black Wolf]

Proud to know that my Italian ancestors hail from the poorest region of Italy lol!

[Ianus]

There are many reasons: before the unification the South was yet bacward respect the North, the menage after unification was not up of situation, mafia, cultural factors, geografical factors, mentality.

[Daniele90]

There are many reasons: before the unification the South was yet bacward respect the North, the menage after unification was not up of situation, mafia, cultural factors, geografical factors, mentality.
No, actually before the unification the South was quite advanced, even comapred to the North; thanks to the freemasonry however, everything, including memories, have been stolen from the South.. mafia was a creation of this same new state, to make sure that the South remained poor; there even was racist claims made by the same people who created this new state, to demonstrate how they wanted the situation we are living now; it's pretty documented

[Ianus]

No, actually before the unification the South was quite advanced, even comapred to the North

This is false, a neoborbonic meridionalist invention. North was more developed, in the South there were some areas that were advanced, but overall the Kingdom of Two Sicily was backward.

[Scandalf]

mafia was a creation of this same new state, to make sure that the South remained poor

http://www.itusozluk.com/image/dafuq_300668.jpg

[Scandalf]

I was just making a joke about the eternal judeo-massonic conspiracy. But not everyone has my kind of humor.


A hard-working Swiss ? Hahahahahaha.

This is utter bullshit. Anyone making claims about "the superior work ethic of the Germanic race" (or similarly of the Protestant religion) has their head up their ass and is too much of a slacker to think things through without essentializing.
The Révolution and Bonaparte introduced liberalism and reforms in Northern Italy ("liberalism" is a word than compasses philosophy, ethics, politics, economics and more) but it never took hold in the South.
That's much more important than whatever retarded ethnic or religious "issues".

You're right: the paradigm shift in mentality is probably the best thing for the advancement of a society.
However the Protestants in Northern Europe acted as a paradigm shift as well...

[JohnSmith]

Could the same be said for Northern France vs Southern France or West Germany vs East Germany. I think East Germany still has bombed out buildings from WWII.

[Ulla]

The answer about North–South divide is here:

Making Democracy Work: Civic Traditions in Modern Italy

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5105.html

[Peyrol]

The main reason for the ''questione meridionale'' is because the bonapartists erased all the illuminated liberals from neapolitan kingdom.

[ab000]

Almost all Southern Italian regions have a GDP that is 75% lower than the EU average. Until now, several attempts were made to solve this problem, but all of them finally failed.

I have found some reasons for this issue:


lack of ressources

lack of industry
no land-reform
peripheral location
organized crime




What do you think, do you have another explanations?


Hey you're that Re_Biscottino guy on anthroscape aren't you? Lol....

[SardiniaAtlantis]

lack of Celtic blood

I'm joking, the main point regarding this subject is that Northern Italy lived the process of industrialization during the end of the 19th Century, while Southern Italy remained based on the agricultural and familiar economy

Accurate. There is a lot of exploitation going about that has always been the case to the southern regions, but of course you will not hear about that here.

[mauro_linguiti]

The main reason for the ''questione meridionale'' is because the bonapartists erased all the illuminated liberals from neapolitan kingdom.

Mah io sapevo che i Bonaparte fossero a favore delle idee liberali, infatti furono loro a stabilire la repubblica partenopea.

Prima del boom economico il sud e la sardegna avevano il 40 - 50% del reddito pro capite delle regioni del nord. Ora sono intorno al 60 - 70%, senza contare l'economia in nero, altrimenti il divario scende di almeno un 10 punti percentuale. In effetti il sud cresceva molto più del nord al tempo del boom economico. Non se questo sia dovuto alla statuto speciale, ai trasferimenti di ricchezza da centro nord al sud o qualcos'altro. Fatto sta che il sud ha accumulato un ritardo notevole aggravato anche dalla maggiore pressione demografica. Basti pensare che fino agli 70 il tasso di natalità al sud era quasi il 50% più alto che al nord. Oggi invece il nord ha un tasso di natalità leggermente superiore. Certamente dovuto anche alla massiccia presenza di stranieri nelle regioni centro settentrionali.

[Peyrol]

Mah io sapevo che i Bonaparte fossero a favore delle idee liberali, infatti furono loro a stabilire la repubblica partenopea.

Prima del boom economico il sud e la sardegna avevano il 40 - 50% del reddito pro capite delle regioni del nord. Ora sono intorno al 60 - 70%, senza contare l'economia in nero, altrimenti il divario scende di almeno un 10 punti percentuale. In effetti il sud cresceva molto più del nord al tempo del boom economico. Non se questo sia dovuto alla statuto speciale, ai trasferimenti di ricchezza da centro nord al sud o qualcos'altro. Fatto sta che il sud ha accumulato un ritardo notevole aggravato anche dalla maggiore pressione demografica. Basti pensare che fino agli 70 il tasso di natalità al sud era quasi il 50% più alto che al nord. Oggi invece il nord ha un tasso di natalità leggermente superiore. Certamente dovuto anche alla massiccia presenza di stranieri nelle regioni centro settentrionali.

Pardon, volevo scrivere ''sanfedisti'' in effetti, non ''bonapartisti''.

[Ulla]

Because they like to scream '''fucking notherner you took our resources'', while in reality they don't like to change and they like to be nourished by Rome and, obviously, by our northern money.

That's why regions like Calabria have almost half of Lombard or Venetic GDP, both nominal and pro-capita.

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

...and that's why they (southerners) compose 60-65% of northern italian population.

...ah, don't forget another important factor: organized crime.


Beh, comunque, pur con le regioni del nostro sud che stentano, l'Italia è messa decisamente meglio di Spagna, Portogallo, Grecia.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Beh, comunque, pur con le regioni del nostro sud che stentano, l'Italia è messa decisamente meglio di Spagna, Portogallo, Grecia.

Beh certo che ce sempre di peggio, ma non e per questo che ci dobbiamo accontentare. Ogni volta che parlo con i miei cugini che sono ancora in Italia mi dicono la stessa cosa... rimane li che ci stai meglio.

[Ulla]

Beh certo che ce sempre di peggio, ma non e per questo che ci dobbiamo accontentare. Ogni volta che parlo con i miei cugini che sono ancora in Italia mi dicono la stessa cosa... rimane li che ci stai meglio.

Dipende da quale parte dell'Italia provieni. Io non mi posso lamentare. Vivo tra Piemonte, Liguria e sud della Francia. Male che vada mi rifugio in Francia. Negli Stati Uniti non potrei mai vivere, sinceramente.

[Scandalf]

Negli Stati Uniti non potrei mai vivere, sinceramente.

Perchè?

[Wolf]

In inglese, per favore!

[dyablo]

Organized crime,primitive mentality.

[Insuperable]

Northern Italy has a lot more Celto-Germanic genetic input.

[Peyrol]

Northern Italy has a lot more Celto-Germanic genetic input.

That's senseless, even the south has germanic input, lol

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

[Scandalf]

In inglese, per favore!

Which post?

[Wolf]

Which post?

First of all, the recent Italian posts.


It's only fair that we stick to one language in this thread.

[Scandalf]

First of all, the recent Italian posts.


It's only fair that we stick to one language in this thread.

Well I asked the girl up there why she could never, ever live in the US.
I'm still waiting for her answere...

[Ctwentysevenj]

That often correlates with a stronger religiousness.

I wonder too the strong influence of the church kept the people backward. Just take Europe, the most religious parts, are usually the least developed. Yes there has been been bid advances of industrialization in the south over the past 30 years, for instance, one of the largest aerospace plants is located near Taranto which produces fuselage for the Boeing 787 and the tailplane for the new Boeing 787 was designed and built in Naples.

http://www.aleniaaermacchi.it/-/boeing-787-in-italy-for-first-time

[Ctwentysevenj]

With the mafia issue, if the corruption level in Italy, which is a disgrace for a large first world economy in Europe, was at the same level as Denmark, which has the lowest level of corruption, the mafia's power would be substantially be reduced, maybe to the point where it might even cease to exist, not quite sure on that one. Anyway it's power would diminish, as it relies on corrupt police and government officials! It is a shame you have a mafia, in a country that potentially it could be a much greater industrial power than what it is. It is home to some of the largest high tech and engineering companies in the world. Also they are the biggest builder of passenger ships.

[Chocolate_Hound]

Environment is not suitable for economical growth the way the north is. Southern Italy including the island of Sicily is literally just rocks.

It really is a huge divide though, Northern Italy is richer than Spain but Southern Italy is poorer. Overall it kind of evens out, though I'd say Spaniards are slightly more productive.

[Cristiano viejo]

Environment is not suitable for economical growth the way the north is. Southern Italy including the island of Sicily is literally just rocks.

It really is a huge divide though, Northern Italy is richer than Spain but Southern Italy is poorer. Overall it kind of evens out, though I'd say Spaniards are slightly more productive.
Madrid, Navarra, Vascongadas or Catalonia are not poorer than Northern Italy. Not even Lazio is.

[Chocolate_Hound]

Far Southern Italy has Eastern European-levels of poverty. Parts of Spain can come close but they are still better off.