Anniversary of Swieciany. Lithuanian collaboration with the Nazi Germany.

[Mans not hot]

Due to joint action of the Nazi Germany and Lithuanian police about 400 Poles were murders in Swieciany. Including women and children.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=swieciany+poland&source=bl&ots=vDcMKLK9_l&sig=tn8LKDqFR3tTNIJysIPJsuWMWeY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PPGbUZmhBIrv0gXoyICoCg&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=swieciany%20poland&f=false

What interesting in October 2011 "unknown perpetrators" destroyed graves, smeared crosses with paint and painted swastika in the Sweciany necropolis.

[lI]

Due to joint action of the Nazi Germany and Lithuanian police about 400 Poles were murders in Swieciany. Including women and children.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=swieciany+poland&source=bl&ots=vDcMKLK9_l&sig=tn8LKDqFR3tTNIJysIPJsuWMWeY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PPGbUZmhBIrv0gXoyICoCg&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=swieciany%20poland&f=false

What interesting in October 2011 "unknown perpetrators" destroyed graves, smeared crosses with paint and painted swastika in the Sweciany necropolis.Same as what Poles do to Lithuanian memorials in Poland, except that there they use the symbols of armia krajowa (polish army which perpetrated genocide again the local Lithuanians, more info about the genocide can be found in this documentary with English subtitles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk3J3gpkGY&list=PLD9900EBE01F406BB&index=1)).

Elsewhere in Poland Poles are using Nazi symbols themselves and I don't even have to dig for several years old article like you do, here's an article written on March 20, 2013
In Poland, “Murder the Jews” was spray-painted on the walls of a newly dedicated Jewish cemetery in Myslenice near Krakow, along with a swastika and the symbol of the elite Nazi SS unit, the news website miasto-info.pl reported.

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/03/20/news-opinion/world/spate-of-anti-semitic-incidents-recorded-in-eastern-europe#ixzz2TyoGOOBM




BTW the Švenčionių slaughter you made a thread about here happened when Polish partisans robbed (taking a diamond ring off the finger of one of the murdered officers and other valuables) and murdered high-ranking German soldiers and then ran-away to the woods leaving the local inhabitants without any protection from the Nazi retaliation - so brave of them, eh?
Not all local inhabitants whom the Nazis subsequently killed were Poles, there were also Lithuanians.

The difference between Švenčioniai slaughter and the ethnic cleansing performed in the same region by Polish armia krajowa is that the former was not initiated by Lithuanians, that was a Nazi German operation and just because there happened to be some collaborating Lithuanian scum, it doesn't make the whole nation accountable while in the later case the initiative was fully organized and performed by Poles.

[Mans not hot]

Same as what Poles do to Lithuanian memorials in Poland, except that there they use the symbols of armia krajowa (polish army which perpetrated genocide again the local Lithuanians, more info about the genocide can be found in this documentary with English subtitles).
What documentary?

Elsewhere in Poland Poles are using Nazi symbols themselves and I don't even have to dig for several years old article like you do, here's an article written on March 20, 2013
Quote
In Poland, “Murder the Jews” was spray-painted on the walls of a newly dedicated Jewish cemetery in Myslenice near Krakow, along with a swastika and the symbol of the elite Nazi SS unit, the news website miasto-info.pl reported.
Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/03/20/news-o...#ixzz2TyoGOOBM
The link is broken. How do you know they were Poles?

BTW the Švenčionių slaughter you made a thread about here happened when Polish partisans robbed (taking a diamond ring off the finger of one of the murdered officers and other valuables) and murdered high-ranking German soldiers and then ran-away to the woods leaving the local
inhabitants without any protection from the Nazi retaliation - so brave of them, eh?
Attacking high-ranking soldiers looks braver to me than murdering women and children. However, the Swieciany slaughter was just one of the series of attacks on Polish civilians, which started long before the one XX wrote about. This particular action was preceded by an assassination of Germans done by Soviet partisans, not by Armia Krajowa. AK was overall careful not to provoke retaliations on civilians, that was one of the standing orders throughout the war.

The difference between Švenčioniai slaughter and the ethnic cleansing performed in the same region by Polish armia krajowa is that the former was not initiated by Lithuanians, that was a Nazi German operation and just because there happened to be some collaborating Lithuanian scum, it doesn't make the whole nation accountable while in the later case the initiative was fully organized and performed by Poles.
Just to enlighten you a little tiny bit about the situation:

Under the Ambrazevicius administration, as well as under the directorate uf Kubiliunas the Lithuanianization of Wilenszczyzna followed the same pattern as before, except that now there was much more anti-Polish rhetoric and violence. Some clergy called from the pulpit for Polish pogroms, stating that the Poles were worse than the ]ews.[50] There were reports that Lithuanian priests were offering indulgences for the killing of Po|es.[51] At least one enterprising Lithuanian professor devoted a paper to the theme "Why We Should Hate the Poles," and the LAF called for the erection of Polish ghettoes, for the establishment of ordinances requiring Poles to wear identication badges, and for the reduction of food rations to Poles -- while bragging that under the Soviets they had exterminated 50 percent of the Poles and that under the Germans they planned to exterminate the other 50 percent.[53]

This was not 'some scum', this was the leading Lithuanian policy, and a continuation of this very policy as executed during the Soviet occupation. On the other hand, the murder of several dozen Lithuanians by Lupaszko was against the AK orders about avoiding retaliation on civilians.

As for 'ethnic cleansing by AK' you better have some sources to back it up. For now, my troll sensor flashes red.

A general advice: while discussing crimes of WW2 try to avoid neo-nazi sources.

[lI]

A general advice: while discussing crimes of WW2 try to avoid neo-nazi sources.A general advice while discussing the crimes of WW2 is to avoid certain chauvinistic Polish sources (which is not to say that all Polish sources are chauvinistic) where they are trying to whitewash their own crimes by exaggerating those of their former victims.


The link is broken.The link isn't broken in my quote, you broke it when instead of using the quote function you manually copied and pasted it yourself.
Works fine here:
Elsewhere in Poland Poles are using Nazi symbols themselves and I don't even have to dig for several years old article like you do, here's an article written on March 20, 2013
In Poland, “Murder the Jews” was spray-painted on the walls of a newly dedicated Jewish cemetery in Myslenice near Krakow, along with a swastika and the symbol of the elite Nazi SS unit, the news website miasto-info.pl reported.

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/03/20/news-opinion/world/spate-of-anti-semitic-incidents-recorded-in-eastern-europe#ixzz2TyoGOOBM






What documentary?Again, I already posted a link to it, press the bolded phrase, the hyperlink is working fine:
more info about the genocide can be found in this documentary with English subtitles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk3J3gpkGY&list=PLD9900EBE01F406BB&index=1)).




How do you know they were Poles?How do you know the ones who painted Nazi symbols in Lithuania were Lithuanians? Posting a remark about it right after a sentence about Lithuanians means that you deliberately implied that they were Lithuanians.
Little do you know that some of the fiercest radicals of South East Lithuania are not Lithuanian, e.g.: http://emigration-etc.blogspot.com/2008/04/black-singer-assaulted-in-vilnius.html

Surely, you aren't suggesting that it was Jews themselves who did it near Krakow? Apart from Poles and Jews there are hardly any other nationalities around Krakow where it happened: 78.1% of Krakowians declared Polish as their primary language, 20.9% - Yiddish or Hebrew, Ukrainian 0.4%, German 0.3%, and Russian 0.1%.

It's not like certain Polish far-right parties (NOP, Niklot, ONR) aren't renowned for their pro-Nazism.



Attacking high-ranking soldiers looks braver to me than murdering women and children.Attacking high-ranking soldiers with the knowledge that they will murder local inhabitants as a retaliation IS in itself as bad as murdering those women and children.
As far as I am concerned, both - the Nazis and the pathetic murders/robbers not worthy of the name "partisans" were scum.



However, the Swieciany slaughter was just one of the series of attacks on Polish civilians, which started long before the one XX wrote about. This particular action was preceded by an assassination of Germans done by Soviet partisans, not by Armia Krajowa.
AK was overall careful not to provoke retaliations on civilians, that was one of the standing orders throughout the war.My mistake about this particular case but you're are wrong about AK being careful not to provoke retaliations. They're relationship with Nazis only improved after Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets for the second time and Nazis were supplying AK weapons.


Just to enlighten you a little tiny bit about the situation:Just to enlighten you a bit further, violence against Poles that you are talking about here was first and foremost violence against the Polish Armia Krajowa - that was mainstream.

Another important thing is that certain Lithuanian priests and professors merely talking that all Poles ought to be genocided and Poles actually genociding Lithuanians is not on par. If you think otherwise, read the memoirs of the former AK egzekutor Stefan Dąmbski.



while bragging that under the Soviets they had exterminated 50 percent of the Poles and that under the Germans they planned to exterminate the other 50 percent.That doesn't even make any sense. The person who made up such shit clearly had problems with maths - the proportion of Polish population is South East LT did not decrease after the first Soviet occupation, go check the stats. So, what 50% of exterminated Poles is he going on about? Were there 150% Poles in the region before the 1st Soviet occupation? It decreased much much later and mainly in Vilnius city due to immigration, not Vilnius region.


This was not 'some scum', this was the leading Lithuanian policy, and a continuation of this very policy as executed during the Soviet occupation.This is bullshit. The AK units were collaborating with Soviets when talking over Vilnius from Nazis but little did they know that Soviets would later turn back on them. Your ramblings about some anti-Polish policy continuing during the 2nd Soviet occupations are bizarre. Out of the three Baltic states Lithuania had the strongest anti-Soviet partisan movement and all Lithuanian partisans were targeted and subsequently exterminated by Soviets too, not just the Polish AK ones.


On the other hand, the murder of several dozen Lithuanians by Lupaszko was against the AK orders about avoiding retaliation on civilians.There weren't several dozens of murdered Lithuanians, there were thousands upon thousands!

Go watch the documentary that I linked to.

Then read the memoirs of Stefan Dąmbski.

And then we can talk.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

Happy birthday

[Cleitus]

Did you know that 14 000 000 German civilists were killed from the Allied Forces ??

[Windischer]

Did you know that 14 000 000 German civilists were killed from the Allied Forces ??

6,9 million germans (civillian and military losses) died in and after war started by germany; including germans living outside germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II


on topic: a generic eastern european thread.

[Mans not hot]

A general advice while discussing the crimes of WW2 is to avoid certain chauvinistic Polish sources (which is not to say that all Polish sources are chauvinistic) where they are trying to whitewash their own crimes by exaggerating those of their former victims.
Which sources do you have in mind?

Here's more info about the genocide can be found in this documentary with English subtitles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk3J3gpkGY&list=PLD9900EBE01F406BB&index=1)).
Deeply obliged. There are no English subtitles. If you speak Lithuanian so fluently, please provide a summary. Although this will be useless as an argument anyway, as uncheckable.

Little do you know that some of the fiercest radicals of South East Lithuania are not Lithuanian, e.g.:
http://emigration-etc.blogspot.com/2...n-vilnius.html

Broken link. Linking is not your strongest point, is it.

Surely, you aren't suggesting that it was Jews themselves who did it near Krakow?

I am saying that you are excusing desecration of Polish graves in Lithuania by the fact that somebody desecrated Jewish graves near Kraków. I am saying that this is kinda pathetic.

Attacking high-ranking soldiers with the knowledge that they will murder local inhabitants as a retaliation IS in itself as bad as murdering those women and children. As far as I am concerned, both - the murderers and pathetic murders/robbers not worthy of the name "partisans" were scum.
But they were Soviets, they didn't care about retaliations.

My mistake about this particular case but you're are wrong about AK being careful not to provoke retaliations. They're relationship with Nazis only improved after Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets for the second time and Nazis were supplying AK weapons.

So AK was in quite good relationship with the Nazis in 1942, and thus provoked retaliations on Poles freely, is what you are saying?

Just to enlighten you a bit further, violence against Poles that you are talking about here was first and foremost violence against the Polish Armia Krajowa - that was mainstream.
He was active in Rzeszowskie, not in Lithuania, and his memoirs are considered confabulations. However, you are free to quote them here, just to avoid accusations of lying through your teeth.

That doesn't even make any sense.

Bragging seldom does.

This is bull*****. The AK units were collaborating with Soviets when talking over Vilnius from Nazis but little did they know that Soviets would later turn back on them. Your ramblings about some anti-Polish policy continuing during the 2nd Soviet occupations are bizarre.
Those ramblings are not mine, so feel free to call them whatever. Reading with understanding is another skill you'd be advised to master.

Those ramblings are not mine, so feel free to call them whatever. Reading with understanding is another skill you'd be advised to master.
Out of the three Baltic states Lithuania had the strongest anti-Soviet partisan movement
Rubbish. Estonia was the strongest.

There weren't several dozens of murdered Lithuanians, there were thousands upon thousands!

Sources in the next post, or I will closed this thread due to your trolling.

[Philo]

Fuck 'em.

[Mans not hot]

Fuck 'em.
WHo?

[Philo]

WHo?

Lithuanians who collaborated with Nazis and Poles and Ukrainians who desecrate Jewish cemeteries.

Especially fuck Lvov. Nuke that shithole already.

[lI]

Sources in the next post, or I will closed this thread due to your trolling.I have already posted sources, if you are incapable of following the hyperlinks, maybe you should go back to kindergarten instead of playing the mod here.



Deeply obliged. There are no English subtitles. If you speak Lithuanian so fluently, please provide a summary. Although this will be useless as an argument anyway, as uncheckable.There are English subtitles, it's youtube - you have to press CC buton to see them:
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/2214/subtitlesmordy.jpg


Broken link. Linking is not your strongest point, is it.The link in my post works fine, you broke the link yourself when you copy-pasted my post instead of using forum's inbuilt quoting function, so in your quote of my post it's broken. Press on it in my post.


I am saying that you are excusing desecration of Polish graves in Lithuania by the fact that somebody desecrated Jewish graves near Kraków. I am saying that this is kinda pathetic.I find it kinda pathetic that you pretend to be able to read my mind. I have never said that I condone the desecration of graves, regardless of whom those graves belong to.
I was merely pointing out that you are in no position to play self-righteous indignation on behalf of Poles when your very own fellow compatriots are doing things no less atrocious. If you perceive that as a praise to neo-nazis from my own ethnicity - then, son, you have problems with comprehension.


So AK was in quite good relationship with the Nazis in 1942, and thus provoked retaliations on Poles freely, is what you are saying? I didn't say that. This is what I said: "Their relationship with Nazis only improved after Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets for the second time and Nazis were supplying AK weapons."


He was active in Rzeszowskie, not in Lithuania, and his memoirs are considered confabulations. However, you are free to quote them here, just to avoid accusations of lying through your teeth.When have I ever said that he operated in Lithuania? I never said he did. His book is relevant because in it he described AK's mode of operation which was the same in Ukraine and Lithuania, those methods which were universally applied where its units operated in the lands that had to be "cleansed" and they amount to genocide. The survivors in Lithuania are telling the exact same stories, you can hear some accounts in the documentary I linked you to, and AK's own archives from Bernardinai monastery confirm it. They are only considered confabulations by certain touchy Poles who can't stand to face the truth.


Rubbish. Estonia was the strongest.You play expert on things you know nothing about. Estonia's man-force (same as Latvia's) was wasted in the local SS units fighting Soviets. So, when the Soviet occupation finally arrived they simply didn't have resources to put up as much guerilla fighting as Lithuanians did (Nazis never managed to raise an SS unit from local Lithuanian population - Lithuanians simply retreated to the woods to escape it, so at the onset of the 2nd Soviet occupation there were still enough men left for fighting).

You can read this for the starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers#In_Estonia
Among the three countries, the resistance was best organized in Lithuania, where guerrilla units controlled whole regions of the countryside until 1949.

Why do you think the % of Russians is the lowest in Lithuania rather than Estonia out of the three Baltic states? The guerilla fighting there intimidated immigrants and slowed their settlement.

[Mans not hot]

There are English subtitles, it's youtube - you have to press CC buton to see them:

Right, I forgot, I never use it. I expected subtitles 'printed in'.

I was merely pointing out that you are in no position to play self-righteous indignation on behalf of Poles when your very own fellow compatriots are doing things no less atrocious.

Nonsense. I am in a perfect position to condemn desecration of graves regardless where it happens, I don't need to start pissing competition about whose skinheads are worse. You have some weird understanding of national loyalty.

I didn't say that. This is what I said: "They're relationship with Nazis only improved after Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets for the second time and Nazis were supplying AK weapons."
I know what you said. The thing is about the ambiguous use of 'only'. Misunderstanding, I got your meaning now.

When have I ever said that he operated in Lithuania? I never said he did. His book is relevant because in it he described AK's mode of operation which was the same in Ukraine and Lithuania, those methods which were universally applied where its units operated in the lands that had to be "cleansed" and they amount to genocide.
Link dear, if you are trying to prove that AK committed ethnic cleansing in Lithuania, then you need sources about Lithuania, not central Poland or Ukraine. AK response to UPA murders is widely known, your claims about genocide of Lithuanians are yet to be proved. The role of AK executioners is widely known, and it's irrelevant to the alleged genocide. Even if Dambski's diaries are sterling truth, they have nothing to do with anything that supposedly happened in Lithuania.

The survivors in Lithuania are telling the exact same stories, you can hear some accounts in the documentary I linked you to, AK's own archives from Bernardinai monastery. They are only considered confabulations by certain touchy Poles who can't stand to face the truth.
There's hardly any truth in that film.

Estonia's man-force (same as Latvia's) was wasted in the local SS units fighting Soviets. So, when the Soviet occupation finally arrived they simply didn't have resources to put up as much of a guerilla fighting as Lithuanians did (Nazis never managed to raise an SS unit from local Lithuanian population - Lithuanians simply retreated to the woods to escape it, so at the onset of the 2nd Soviet occupation there was still enough men left for fighting).
You can read this for the starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers#In_Estonia
I checked some other sources as well. And, a couple of Estonian pages say that the number of anti-Soviet partisans was about, erm, 20 thousand... Your point then. I just remembered some articles from years ago claiming that overall in all those years hundreds of thousands of Estonians took part in resistance. Seems they were exaggerating a tad.

Why do you think the % of Russians is the lowest in Lithuania rather than Estonia out of the three Baltic states? The guerilla fighting there intimidated immigrants and slowed their settlement.

Could be the reason, but it's just a speculation. Unnecessary.


So I saw this this film, Link, and it's what I expected, a clumsy anti-Polish propaganda made by half-wits. The 'historians' keep ranting about 'genocide', but give not a single checkable factual information. The witnesses describe atrocities, but consistently avoid relevant data likewise. During the whole film, about 45 minutes, not even the narrator cares to drop a single place name, and this is a basic information, and the one that nobody ever forgets. People might get confused about details or exact dates, but they never forget where the atrocity happened and never neglect to put the name in their relation.

One of the witnesses didn't actually meet the perpetrators, he fled in time and returned to see the corpses. The two other say the murderers were speaking Polish, and this is the only clue that they might have been AK soldiers. But, in the region everybody spoke Polish, those witnesses including, yet nobody claims they were AK members. Those people could have been plain robbers, or NKVD operatives. Or AK members, of course, but this is as speculative as the other options.

The two documents presented are laughable. The lists of enemies of Poland were routinely created by AK all over the country and had no connection with ethnic cleansing, as both the narrator and the historians happily claim. For ethnic cleansing you don't need a register, you just go and kill whoever looks like an alien. Those were lists of people especially dangerous to Poles and Polish cause, the most brutal occupation officials and traitors. People either to distrust, or to punish including by death. Those were not lists of 'people to annihilate', however, as the narrator claims, even if some of them could face the death sentence, had been given one, or were actually executed.

On the list shown, I found 25 reasons for putting people there. Of those, 11 changed their nationality to Lithuanian (7) or were Lithuanian chauvinists (4), 8 were communists, 4 Nazi collaborators, 1 was torturing political prisoners, and one a generic 'enemy of Poland.' FYI, changing your nationality to that of the enemy, during a war, is capital treason. Being active in fighting your country makes you an enemy by definition. The other categories don't need explanation, I suppose. "Being friendly with Lithuanians" doesn't feature there, and if "kissing the Lithuanian flag" was a capital crime to Poles, then the film makers could have just shown it as a proof. They didn't. "Mentioning Smetona's name" should have been shown as well, being such a ridiculous reason for assassination.

The other document was supposed to prove that the AK Commander, "Wilk" Krzyzanowski, wrote letters to the local Wehrmacht leader. But... the document header says: "Betr.: Weisspolnische Banden." Anybody who believes than an AK Commander calls his units "Gangs of White Poles" needs his head checked.

The document is written by somebody with a fluent command of German. And the signature says "Gen. Wulff". This is meant to be Krzyzanowski's pseudonym, except that Wilk translates to German as Wolf. Not Wulff, which is a German surname. Obviously, this letter is an internal German correspondence.

The funny thing is that this clumsy effort to accuse AK of cooperation with Wehrmacht is utterly futile. The fact is popularly known in Poland, had been presented in lots of popular historical books. The agreement was kinda armistice in the face of the coming Soviet front, and Germans promised to kinda loose some weapons for AK to use in combat against the Soviets. Nobody in Poland makes a secret of it - and it has no relevance to the purported genocide, of course. It's only supposed to serve as just another piece of ***** thrown on the murderous AK.

Anyway. The narrator says, and this is rich, deserves a full quotation:
[part 3/3 01:26]Information about pogroms of Army Krajowa overwhelmed the whole Lithuania. For resistance and local residents protection was created Lithuanian Security Police, led by General Plechavicius.

As we already know there were no pogroms except of the 'historians' dreams, so nothing to overwhelm the whole Lithuania. Not everybody knows, however, that the Lithuanian Security Service was created in 1941. Not in response to the alleged AK atrocities, because AK didn't even exist then and was inactive until summer 1943 anyway, but in order to support Sipo, the Nazi Sicherheitspolizei - and its activities were typical to this formation, including extermination of Poles, Jews and other minorities. Plechavicius was a leader of another formation, created in 1944 to take over Lithuania after Germans. Not in order to defend locals against AK, as there were even talks of military cooperation between Krzyzanowski and Plechavicius. So the film producers aiming at "disclosing the painful truth about AK" didn't even bother to check the basic undeniable facts of their own history before concocting this bollox.

As the ending accent of the film, the Lithuanian 'historians' smirk about Polish historians 'differently interpreting the facts' and 'rejecting the documents found in 1995'. But, of facts, they showed none, and the documents presented in the film are irrelevant, so I fully agree with Polish historians when they reject them as proofs of AK-made genocide. And we are not alone in this:
A state commission was established by the Government of Lithuania to evaluate activities of Armia Krajowa in Lithuania which had to present conclusions by 1 December 1993.[26][clarification needed] Not a single member of Armia Krajowa, many veterans of which live in Lithuania, has been charged with any crimes as of 2001.[17] A Lithuanian historian Arūnas Bubnys stated that there were no mass murders carried by AK (with the only exception being Dubingai), but that AK was guilty of some war crimes against individuals or selected families; he also notes that any accusations of genocide are false and have an underlying political motive, among them a counteraction to the accusations of widespread German–Lithuanian collaboration and crimes committed by units such as the Lithuanian Secret Police
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_relations_during_World_War_II


All in all, the film makes first pages in Google searches, but it's worthless - except as an example of a botched hateful propaganda. Got any other 'sources' to support your claims, Link? :)

[tiger]

'sources'

We don‘t need to prove you anything. It's you who have to admit your crimes if you want to be respected by Lithuanians.

[Mans not hot]

We don‘t need to prove you anything. It's you who have to admit your crimes if you want to be respected by Lithuanians.
Not so easy. If you publish a defamatory statement then you are committing a crime of libel unless you prove that your statement was true. As for now, you haven't done this. Post your source or get off this thread.

[Mans not hot]

Just as I expected, typical Lithuanian chauvinist who's trying to prove that Poles should be guilty for their crimes, but won't reply without no source.

[Mans not hot]

Tiger and Link won't still posting sources. Jeez, I wonder why.. :rolleyes:

[Mans not hot]

I can provide you some quotes but I'm too lazy to translate. you will have to google translate, soz. It is a summary of book which deals a lot with events that involved Poles. You mentioned one Lithuanian historian to prove something, well, he says somethin you probably wouldn't quote.
If you're too lazy to translate, then why commenting to this thread?

[epirot]

WTF!!!

Slavs (Poles, Russians) are prosecuted today in the baltic countries and have to change their names with this final "S". Total shame. I wonder if Russians (or .... Serbs) even dared to do this to minorities they would automatically be labeled as "butchers", "tyrants", "despotic", bla bla bla....

In any case, all my wishes to the Slavic people of the north against the NAZI evil anti-Slavs....

XxtraXavier : ne predaje se sestro! (dont give up sister!)

[epirot]

^^^ Then i guess Serbs are total idiots for fully supporting the :
- Hungarian alphabet
- Slovakian alphabet
- Rusini alphabet
in Vojvodina.... So, what stops Lithuanians from doing the same? lemme tell you : they have the endorsement of the west to undermine the Slavs.

[Windischer]

So, what stops Lithuanians from doing the same? lemme tell you : they have the endorsement of the west to undermine the Slavs.

lol stop taking those drugs :picard1:

its just plain old chauvinism and nationalism.



as a sovereign state it holds a constitutional right to how surnames should be written in that country
uh really? someone actually argued like this? fkin bullshit.

[Windischer]

forcing people to write names&surnames in different manner = nationalistic chauvinism

thats what i meant. no matter if in lithuania, slovakia or poland, its the same idiocy everywhere.

[Harkonnen]

Poland must stop bullying Balts. Grow up Poland! Poland bullies make me sick.

[glass]

Why do you think the % of Russians is the lowest in Lithuania rather than Estonia out of the three Baltic states? The guerilla fighting there intimidated immigrants and slowed their settlement.
wrong, Lithuania didnt have relatively big town, like Riga or Tallin, where russians could settle. % russians in Vilnius is as same as in Riga or Tallin but capital contain smaller share of total population. Also mass migration to baltic states was in 1960-70s not in 1940s

[Mans not hot]

because you may be interested? This is you who started the thread. I'm sure it would be understandable enough. I haven't seen you translating long texts either.
Show me source, please.

[Minde]

why talk name change tread be about my Nazi friends. i feel proud of Nazi friendship lituania

[Mans not hot]

First of all, I didn't change the title and second of all, Im not nazi. I despite them, so why do you think Im Nazi?

[epirot]

lol stop taking those drugs :picard1:

its just plain old chauvinism and nationalism.



uh really? someone actually argued like this? fkin bullshit.

LMAO dude, haven't you noticed that NAZI-ism is EVERYWHERE forbidden except :

1) the baltic countries
2) Croatia

come on, we are all grown ups here, time to do some combinatory thinking here...

In the meantime Poles and Russians are suffering a cultural genocide in the baltic countries. I met one Esthonian guy with obviously Russian name, i talked to him a little bit in "Slavic" and he behaved like he was under hunt...

[Aunt Hilda]

LMAO dude, haven't you noticed that NAZI-ism is EVERYWHERE forbidden except :

1) the baltic countries
2) Croatia


you forgot america, and quite a few other countries




In the meantime Poles and Russians are suffering a cultural genocide in the baltic countries. I met one Esthonian guy with obviously Russian name, i talked to him a little bit in "Slavic" and he behaved like he was under hunt...
seriously, because they have spell their names differently?

[Mans not hot]

You better start getting busy, you wasted six days. Link, Tiger, Kamane, I am waiting for ''sources''.

[Minde]

LMAO dude, haven't you noticed that NAZI-ism is EVERYWHERE forbidden except :

1) the baltic countries
2) Croatia

come on, we are all grown ups here, time to do some combinatory thinking here...

In the meantime Poles and Russians are suffering a cultural genocide in the baltic countries. I met one Esthonian guy with obviously Russian name, i talked to him a little bit in "Slavic" and he behaved like he was under hunt...

i call croatia my frend now

[riverman]

seriously, because they have spell their names differently?

Forced name changes historically is a form of repression. I thank goodness I have an unchanged/old style Slavic name

[Aunt Hilda]

Forced name changes historically is a form of repression. I thank goodness I have an unchanged/old style Slavic name

so people who's names have been changed in america, Britain etc. we repressed? from what i hear america still has a strong polish community. culture is more than a name... it's books, it's cinema, it's art and from what i gather these things are not banned.

besides, they only have to change the alphabet, not the the structure of the language.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Did you know that 14 000 000 German civilists were killed from the Allied Forces ??

Less than 7 million died, but they killed over 24 million Slavs.

[Mans not hot]

Kamane, you got deferment until I go through this crap, might be a day or two. For now, having browsed it quickly, can't see anything about genocide of thousands and thousands.

[Mans not hot]

Uuuu, crap, did that article touched your Polish self-esteem?

No, I got used to calumnies, especially from Lithuanians.


Anyway, I don't care what you will say next. You were complaining that linkus'sources about AK are not scientific, now you got a summary of book which is written by historians (including at least one Pole). You are unhappy again.
Oh, you should care. If I don't find anything that proves Linkus claims that Swieciany murder was a retaliation to previous Polish atrocities, or that Polish government planned genocide and that AK performed it. You may not care all right, I don't care about you caring. Trolls are despised here and not welcome.

[Aunt Hilda]

Trolls are despised here and not welcome.

quite ironic

[Mans not hot]

quite ironic
Take your internet off because you have been spending TA too much. It aint healthy for you, sweetie.

[riverman]

I don't care what you think.

No-one cares what you think

[Mans not hot]

I don't care
You do care, otherwise, you wouldn't be retaliating.

[Minde]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjHkQDr9BY
this one good

[Mans not hot]

Off topic perhaps?

[lI]

wrong, Lithuania didnt have relatively big town, like Riga or Tallin, where russians could settle. % russians in Vilnius is as same as in Riga or Tallin but capital contain smaller share of total population. Also mass migration to baltic states was in 1960-70s not in 1940sYou are wrong yourself.

Daugavpils (2nd biggest city of Latvia, 90% Russian) which Russians flooded en masse during the Soviet era is smaller than many Lithuanian cities and so is Estonian Narva - why didn't Soviet immigrants flood other Lithuanian cities like they flooded Narva, Liepaja, Daugavpils, Ventspils, Jelgava, the whole Latgale and so on? It was a combination of several factors and better organized resistance was one of them.


___________________________________



You better start getting busy, you wasted six days. Link, Tiger, Kamane, I am waiting for ''sources''.Wait as long as you wish, I have already given you sources. If you are too much of a retard to comprehend them, it is none of my concerns.

Oh, you should care. If I don't find anything that proves Linkus claims that Swieciany murder was a retaliation to previous Polish atrocities, or that Polish government planned genocide and that AK performed it. You may not care all right, I don't care about you caring. Trolls are despised here and not welcome.
You pathetic little troll! Are you now threatening me with a ban or what? I am sure Loki will have something to say about this, you have already been suspended more times than I can count and there will probably be more to come if you keep on playing a kindergarden here. I gave you official documentary based on AK's own sources that are verified to be authentic by professional historians and you gave me this shit in response???
So I saw this this film, Link, and it's what I expected, a clumsy anti-Polish propaganda made by half-wits. The 'historians' keep ranting about 'genocide', but give not a single checkable factual information. AK's sources are freely available in the archives for historians to investigate.


How many official sources did you present in your "retaliation" to my post? Zero. Ziltch. Nothing.

Sorry to inform you but your personal deranged "reasonings" of what is "obvious [to you]" and "already known [maybe you dreamed it]" do not count as a valid counter-argument since official third-party sources is what you demanded from me (and received).


All in all, the film makes first pages in Google searches, but it's worthless - except as an example of a botched hateful propaganda. Got any other 'sources' to support your claims, Link? http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.pngHow about you come up with a retaliatory documentary or articles by Polish historians who disagree with this? The documentary I posted was very widely publicized, I'm sure that if there really had been any serious counter arguments, they would have been mediated on official level :)



And what's this supposed to mean you troll?!

Not so easy. If you publish a defamatory statement then you are committing a crime of libel unless you prove that your statement was true. As for now, you haven't done this. Post your source or get off this thread.
I ALREADY POSTED A SOURCE! What I said about the genocide is the official version of Lithuanian historians supported by AK's own documentation. If you are planning to start a case of libel against me, I'm afraid you will have to first win a case against the Republic of Lithuania, darling. Good luck with that!

And good luck with reading the article Kamane quoted too, some interesting stuff there :)

[Mans not hot]

Jesus, what took you so long to reply my posts? Seriously, you're slower than a snail.

[Mans not hot]

The video you produced, it gives not checkable factual information, just general unsubstantiated musings, and most of it is irrelevant.

The rest of the article is about the future of Wilno Region as seen by Polish government, Polish opinions on Lithuanians, the alleged cooperation of the AK with the Germans, and then about the post-AK and Lithuanian cooperation against the Soviets.

The mass murder in Swieciany was not in retaliation to previous AK atrocities, because there were none at all at the time. Polish government had never planned genocide, and still brazenly claim with no factual support whatsoever. Lithuanian civilian losses were not counted in 'thousands and thousands', your own YouTube 'source' speaks about 500, and this is the maximum estimate ever found in sources.


The Dubinki massacre is quite well documented, it made quite a splash. First of all the number of victims was 20-27, not 100. Secondly, it was in retaliation to the Glinciszki massacre of 38 Polish civilians by Lithuanian police, which, in turn, was a reaction to AK having had killed 4 policemen in a skirmish several days before. Dubinki were targeted because that was where some of the policemen lived. The inhabitants had been warned of the incoming attack, and the warnings caused the AK command to send a courier to stop it. The planned attack was against the standing order of "Wilk" Krzyzanowski, The AK commander, who expressly forbade retaliation on Lithuanian civilians for atrocities committed by the Nazi-Lituanian units. (order no. 5 of the 12th April 1944) - and this in itself is a striking proof that the "AK genocide of Lithuanians" is a brazen lie. Last but not least, it's the only one atrocity known to be committed by AK in the region.

Mr Siemaszko is a historian specialising in UPA-AK clash, but I believe he is conversant enough about the general history of the times, so it's just impossible that he didn't know about the above.


Seriously, I am fed up of typical Lithuanian chauvinists who's spreading their bullshit towards my countrymen.

Now, its time for us to move along because Im not gonna reply to your posts.


Bye.

[glass]

You are wrong yourself.

Daugavpils (2nd biggest city of Latvia, 90% Russian) which Russians flooded en masse during the Soviet era is smaller than many Lithuanian cities and so is Estonian Narva - why didn't Soviet immigrants flood other Lithuanian cities like they flooded Narva, Liepaja, Daugavpils, Ventspils, Jelgava, the whole Latgale and so on? It was a combination of several factors and better organized resistance was one of them.

i advice you to take some history lessons first.
Daugavpils became part of Lativa only because bolsheviks ceded it to germans and so somewaht cut it from Russia. Town was always part of slavic world. Poland then Pskov governorate then Vitebsk governorate. All slavic population in town has long historical roots and has nothing to do with "soviet migrant". Same applies to Narva.
There are no soviet migrant in small historically nonslavic towns because soviet migrants were high skilled urban citizens, villages and big villages (small towns) were left to baltic natives. They fit such settlements much better.
Also you might forgot, but Vilnius is part of Lithuania only because Stalin made such gift to your Lithuanian soviet republic;):picard1:

[riverman]

Vilna>Vilnius

[lI]

Seriously, I am fed up of typical Lithuanian chauvinists who's spreading their bullshit towards my countrymen.

Now, its time for us to move along because Im not gonna reply to your posts.


Bye.
Hahaha I see that you have deleted my last post in this thread that I wrote in response to your post about me being slower than a snail!
PATHETIC

Bye bye!

But you're probably gonna delete this post too - you're the mod! :lol:
It is truly lame that you have to resort to such means of silencing people who disagree with you in order to pretend you're having the last word in the discussion.


_________________________________________


i advice you to take some history lessons first.
Daugavpils became part of Lativa only because bolsheviks ceded it to germans and so somewaht cut it from Russia. Town was always part of slavic world. Poland then Pskov governorate then Vitebsk governorate. All slavic population in town has long historical roots and has nothing to do with "soviet migrant". Same applies to Narva.
There are no soviet migrant in small historically nonslavic towns because soviet migrants were high skilled urban citizens, villages and big villages (small towns) were left to baltic natives. They fit such settlements much better.
I advise you to take some history lessons yourself before you are in any position to teach me.
Latgale (historical ethnic Latvian lands!) - including Daugavpils was incorporated into the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania during the times of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - only after the Lublin Union did it become a joint domain of Poland and Lithuania, so saying that it was "a part of the Slavic world" back then only shows that you know nothing about the history of that region.
The bulk of pre-Soviet Russians in Latgale were Old Believers - it is not so nowadays. In 1928, merely 18% of Daugavpils district population were Russians. The off-springs of Russians who already lived in Latvia before the Soviets came along were given citizenship without any need to take a language test when SU dissolved and yet ~40% of Daugavpils' inhabitants are non-citizens which means that they didn't have so much as a single ancestor who lived in Latvia before the Soviet occupation! That is around half of all Russians living in Daugavpils. A large part of others who did get the passports, got them due to passing a language test, not due to having local ancestors. So, don't fantasize about "all Slavic population of Daugavpils having had deep historical roots in that city".


And you conveniently ignored the other cities with large Soviet immigrant populations that I mentioned - were Liepaja, Jurmala, Ventspils a "part of the Slavic world" already before the SU too?


Also you might forgot, but Vilnius is part of Lithuania only because Stalin made such gift to your Lithuanian soviet republic;):picard1:You might have forgotten that the only reason Vilnius was not a part of Lithuania during the Interwar period was because Poland occupied it ;)
Historically the city always belonged to Lithuania, it is only Poles for whom the history starts only with the Interwar period while all that happened before it is simply ignored when talking about Vilnius (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Polska1912.jpg).

[Aunt Hilda]

serioulsy xx you edited links post and then you deleted it. :no no


more importantly you quoted her and said


Nothing to say? I thought so.

:D very immature behaviour



Vilna>Vilnius
:D i agree, it should belong to the jews, not poles or liths

[glass]

I advise you to take some history lessons yourself before you are in any position to teach me.
i do not consider lithuanian historical fiction as history:picard1:

Latgale (historical ethnic Latvian lands!) - including Daugavpils was incorporated into the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania during the times of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - only after the Lublin Union did it become a joint domain of Poland and Lithuania, so saying that it was "a part of the Slavic world" back then only shows that you know nothing about the history of that region.
Bryansk and Smolensk are not russian towns i think, they were incorporated into the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania during the times of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Lithuanian occupation does not make occupied terriotories lithuanian. Also Daugavpils has nothing to do with balts, town was ran by germans and slavs most of its history.

The bulk of pre-Soviet Russians in Latgale were Old Believers - it is not so nowadays.
:bored:another pathetic attempt to belittle russian and slavic influence in baltic states. Old believers were as same rural inhabitans as local balts, they were not living in towns.

In 1928, merely 18% of Daugavpils district population were Russians. The off-springs of Russians who already lived in Latvia before the Soviets came along were given citizenship without any need to take a language test when SU dissolved and yet ~40% of Daugavpils' inhabitants are non-citizens which means that they didn't have so much as a single ancestor who lived in Latvia before the Soviet occupation!
this and "Daugavpils (2nd biggest city of Latvia, 90% Russian)" probably have same source. Was it your butt?:picard1:

That is around half of all Russians living in Daugavpils. A large part of others who did get the passports, got them due to passing a language test, not due to having localancestors. So, don't fantasize about "all Slavic population of Daugavpils having had deep historical roots in that city".
Russians do not need latvian passports because they do not feel any connections with lame ethnic latvian regime. Also alien passports allow them travel freely to Russia and to European Union!

And you conveniently ignored the other cities with large Soviet immigrant populations that I mentioned - were Liepaja, Jurmala, Ventspils a "part of the Slavic world" already before the SU too?
Like i said those seaport towns were required high skilled urban citizens to run local industry. Local balts were not capable to do it. Historically balts are rural backwards, while slavs, germans and jews are urban citizens. Balts became majority in baltic towns only under soviet rule, so basically ethnic baltic urban population is soviet legacy. Which you are trying to deny or belittle.
Also according to this your logic

Attacking high-ranking soldiers with the knowledge that they will murder local inhabitants as a retaliation IS in itself as bad as murdering those women and children.
lithuanian so called guerilla fighters actually "deported" thousands of ethnic lithuanians. How can you call them a reason of low amount of soviet immigrants in Lithuania?:picard1:

You might have forgotten that the only reason Vilnius was not a part of Lithuania during the Interwar period was because Poland occupied it Historically the city always belonged to Lithuania, it is only Poles for whom the history starts only with the Interwar period while all that happened before it is simply ignored when talking about Vilnius.
it is irrelevant. Fact is Vilnuis is a part of contemporary Lithuania only because of Stalin decision. Also vast majority of Vilnuis lithuanians are post ww2 (illegal?) migrants. So basicaly they are so called soviet immigrants, which you do not like.:picard1:
Russian Kiev is now being polluted by ukrainians, your histrorical capital could have been Belarus town for example. Contemporary borders rarely reflect hundreds years old "historical" rights

[Minde]

Off topic perhaps?
this tred went off topic age ago

[epirot]

Slavs is simply the greatest white nation ever on earth. At a point in time they occupied from south Greece to the north pole and from Berlin to the sea of Japan. Slavs are the fathers of all whites.

[epirot]

Today any yugoslav/bulgarian can feel at home in Sakhalin and recognize lots of words, as much as a russian from north russia can still recognize some toponyms in as south as south Greece....

That is beyond any imagination in the spheres of greko-latino-saxonogermanic worlds.

[Aunt Hilda]

Slavs is simply the greatest white nation ever on earth. At a point in time they occupied from south Greece to the north pole and from Berlin to the sea of Japan. Slavs are the fathers of all whites.

calm down guurl.

[epirot]

calm down guurl.

stroke a nerve i guess...

[Aunt Hilda]

stroke a nerve i guess...

let it go, there's no need to play Aryans...