Lombards of Sicily

[Ulla]

Who knows their history?

Lombards of Sicily (Italian: Lombardi di Sicilia) are an ethnic and linguistic group living in Sicily, southern Italy, speaking an isolated variety of Gallo-Italic dialects, the so called Gallo-Italic of Sicily.

The Lombards of Sicily, coming from the Northern Italy, settled the central and eastern part of Sicily about 900 years ago during the Norman conquest of Sicily. After the marriage between the Norman Roger I of Sicily with Adelaide del Vasto, descendant of Aleramici family of Frank origin, many Lombard colonisers left their homeland, in the Aleramici's possessions in Piedmont and Liguria, to settle on the island of Sicily.

Lombard people continued to migrate and settle in Sicily right up to the reign of Henry VI. Alongside the Lombards, there was continuous migration into Sicily from north-western Europe which was greatley encouraged by the kings of Sicily.

Because of linguistic differences among the Gallo-Italics dialects of Sicily, it is supposed that there were independent immigration routes. From Piedmont, Liguria, Emilia, Lombardy they began to spread south, between the 11th and 14th centuries.

The major centres, called historically Oppida Lombardorum, where these dialects can still be heard today include Piazza Armerina, Aidone, Sperlinga, San Fratello, Nicosia, and Novara di Sicilia. Northern Italian dialects did not survive in some towns in the province of Catania that developed large Lombard communities during this period, namely Randazzo, Paternò and Bronte. However, the Northern Italian influence in the local varieties of Sicilian are marked.

In the case of San Fratello, some linguists have suggested that the gallic-italic dialect present today has Provençal as its basis, having been a fort manned by Provençal mercenaries in the early decades of the Norman conquest (bearing in mind that it took the Normans 30 years to conquer the whole of the island).

[Peyrol]

Now i would see the racial ispectors reading this thread...

[Ulla]

Now i would see the racial ispectors reading this thread...

Who is him?

[Peyrol]

Who is him?

Come imparerai ben presto, tutto il mondo è ossessionato dalla Sicilia, purtroppo...

[slayer]

I've red that Lombards (northern italians) partly cluster with spaniards due to the spanish domination of Milan. can this explain the occasional, but probably very rare, similiarities between sicilians and spaniards?

[Celt_Pride]

The lombards are the real spaniards in Italy

[alfieb]

:picard1:

The Lummardi have nothing to do with Spaniards. I've spent a good amount of time in Ciazza, a Lombard town in Sicily, and they don't look, act, or speak like Spaniards.

There are towns in Sicily that were founded by Iberians and have lots of Iberian surnames, but that's not the case here.

[Terror Terror]

The Spaniards don't have anything to share with the Lombards. Atlanto-Celto-Germanic genes are much stronger among the Spaniards and as alfieb said, culturally they are worlds apart: the Lombards are fundamentally Southern European Latins where the Spaniards are an Atlantic people like some of the French and the Britons. Educate yourself!

[Sikeliot]

The descendants of the Lombards in Sicily are primarily those who live in and speak Gallo-Italic languages, which are still spoken in some towns. Lombards also, for the record, do not look anything like Spaniards-- they would if anything be similar to modern day populations living near the Alps including modern Lombards.

And Spanish genes in Sicily are very insignificant. On 23andme I've seen maybe one Sicilian get any Iberian score and I am sharing with people from all over the island. However, Lombard genes are harder to quantify through 23andme due to their "Italian" cluster, but I'd expect Lombards to have a stronger impact genetically.

[MelinusMargos]

Atlanto-Celto-Germanic genes are much stronger among the Spaniards

mmm... I don't think so. Atlanto for sure, but I don't think the other two are stronger. remind that north Italy is roughly populated 50% by north italians and 50% by south italians so the real genetics of north italians are a faked.

[Sikeliot]

mmm... I don't think so. Atlanto for sure, but I don't think the other two are stronger. remind that north Italy is roughly populated 50% by north italians and 50% by south italians so the real genetics of north italians are a faked.

Well northern Italians would have more Germanic and central European influence, while the northern influence that makes up a significant minority of Iberian genes would be the same type of ancestry that makes up the majority amongst Irish, Welsh, etc.

[Peyrol]

Btw lombards of Sicily were mostly insubrians (Western Lombards).

[Ulla]

Btw lombards of Sicily were mostly insubrians (Western Lombards).

Right, Peyrol. Lombards of Sicily are mainly western Lombards: Low Piedmont (Asti, Cuneo, Monferrato), Val Bormida (Savona), Western Lombardy (Pavia). Lombards of Sicily are also mixed with French people (Normandy, Provence, Brittany).

Lombards of Sicily were ghibellines, and they were supporters of Aleramici dinasty, Hauteville dinasty and Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor born in Italy. Lombards of Sicily were enemies of Arabs, Greeks and Spaniards conquerors of Sicily.

Spaniards have nothing to do with Lombards and Lombards of Sicily.

[alfieb]

Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor born in Italy.
While technically true, he identified as Sicilian, spoke Sicilian, grew up in Palermo, ruled from Palermo, and was buried in Palermo.

[Ulla]

Examples of Lombards dialects in Sicily. Absolutely They are not Sicilian dialects, even after 900 years could be a little different from their originary languages.

Testo di partenza in italiano

"Un lupo ed un agnello, spinti dalla sete, erano giunti allo stesso ruscello. Più in alto si fermò il lupo, molto più in basso si mise l'agnello. Allora quel furfante, spinto dalla sua sfrenata golosità, cercò un pretesto di litigio. - “Perché - disse - intorbidi l'acqua che sto bevendo?”
Pieno di timore, l'agnello rispose:
- Scusa, come posso fare ciò che tu mi rimproveri? Io bevo l'acqua che passa prima da te.”
E quello, sconfitto dall'evidenza del fatto, disse:
- Sei mesi fa hai parlato male di me.
E l'agnello ribatté:
- Ma se ancora non ero nato!
- Per Ercole, fu tuo padre, a parlar male di me - disse il lupo.
E subito gli saltò addosso e lo sbranò fino ad ucciderlo ingiustamente.
Questa favola è scritta per quegli uomini che opprimono gli innocenti con falsi pretesti.

Piazza Armerina

'N lupu e 'n agnèu, morti d' sè, s' giungìnu a bèv ö stiss sciùm.
N-ön capp' gghj-'era u lupu, ciù sötta gghj-era l'agnèu.
Allöra dd' f'tös du lupu, ch-avèa a panza vacanta,
cum'nzà a 'nguiatèlu p' sciarrèr's cu jèu
-Oh d'sgrazià, t' ddèvi d' döcch ch' m' stè ddurdiànn tutta l-egua?
E l-aggnèu:
- Nan t' 'ns'ddiè, l-egua passa prima d' n' tì, tu ma ste ddurdiànn a mì!
U lupu, truvànn's no tört, ggh' diss:
- Oia s'ntùt ch' tu, sèi mesgi com a öra, sparràvi d' mì cu l-amisgi.
E jèu: - Ma chi stè 'ncucchiànn'?
Jè, sei mesgi fà, manch avea nasciùit!
- Butàna di guai! Allöra fu dd' bècch d' to pà a sparrèr d' mi.
E senza savèr nè ddèzz e nè scriv, cu 'na granfaggnàda su spurpà d' bedda e bedda.
Sti paröddi l-ana sènt ddi gent' ch' cunnà'nn'nu i 'nucènti 'ngiustamènt.

Aidone

Un lup′, mort′ d′se′ e sicch′ d′ sìa,
s' truvau a b′v′rér′s ô sciùm′.
Z′rànn′ l-ugg′, vìtt′ ca nô basc′
gghj-era un gn′ddìt′ tèn′r′ e sav′rùs′.
Gghj′ fis′ p′tìt′, ma, p′ mìnt′s a post′ a cuscìnza,
z′rcàva na calùnnia p′ sciarr′iér′s.
Accuscì s′ mis′ a vusgiè.
- P′rchì m′ stai ddurdiànn′ l-eua mintr′ ìja stau b′vìnn′?
U gnedd′ scantait′, s′ r′cugghì nê robb′ e ggh′ r′spunnì:
- Tu m-aia p′rduné , ma com′ pozz′ ddurdièr′
l-eua a tìia ch′ sii′ ciù nô iaut'?
U lùp′, pùr′ r′canuscìnn′ ch-avìva tort′,
z′rcàu n-autra calùnnia e gghj′ dìss′:
- Sii misg′ com′ a ura tu m′ murmuliàv′t′!
U gn′ddìtt′ mort′ nâ pedd′ r′spunnì:
- Voss′gn′rìa iav′ tort′,
ija atànn′ manch′ ava nasciùit′!
- Buttana dû nfern′ ! Allura fu ta patr′ ch′ sparrau d′ mija!
E d′sginn′ accuscì, n-on ditt′ e un fait′,
u granfà e sû spurpà, pur′ savinn′ ch′ nan aviva curpa.
St′ parodd′ s′ l-àn-a sìnt′r cudd′
ch′ cunnàn′n′ i nuccìnt′, cusànn′l′ ngiustamint′.

Nicosia

Un lupö e n-gneu mort' d' së, avìenu r'vat' nö stissu sciumö:
chiù suva s' f'rmà u lupö , chjù sötta s' m'ttött' u gneu.
Allura ddu mascarà, ch'avia simpö famö , z'rcà na scusa p' sciarrièr's.
- P'rchì ddurdìj' l-egua ch' stagö b'vëndö?
U gneu s' cagà d' ncou du scant' e ghj' r'spundëttö:
- M' dai scusè, ma comö pozzö fë chêu tu m' sti d'sgiendo.
Iu bevo dd-egua ch' passa prima dö nda tu!
E cheö v'dëndö ch-avia torto ghj' r'spundëttö:
- Sej mis' com-ora sparrast' d' më.
Un gneu p' d'fend's ghi' dëssö.
- Ma sa iö n-avia mancu nasciò!
- Porch' d' zzà e dd' ddà; fö to paddö ch' m' mörmöriava.
E mentö d'sgia s' parodd' ghi' sautà d' ncoö e su mangià a muzz'cö.
Su cuntö è scritto p' chei
ch' vonö avera sempo rasgiöni
e ch' sâ pigghjönö co chëo ch' sö chjö deböl'.

Sperlinga

N-lupö e n-gneö, pa fortë së, s' trövanö no stissö vaddön;
ö lupö stasgìa na partë d' d' söva, ö gneö na partë d' d' söta.
Quandö dd' lupö s' v'ntià dd' pov'rö gneö,
z'rcà na scusa p' iarmè na sciarra.
- P'rchè, - ghj' dissö - m' nddurdì l-egua mëntr' ca stagö b'vendö?
Dd' gn'ddotö, tuttö scantà, gh' r'spöndëtö:
- Ma comö t' pozzö n-ddurdìè l'egua se sögnö d' d' söta?
Ö lupö, n'n savendö r'spöndö, n-v'ntà naöta scusa p' sciarriessë e ghj' dissö:
- Sieë mësgë ndarrìa, tu sparrastë da mi.
E dd' m'schin d' gneu r'spöndët':
- Ma ia, sieë mësgë ndarrìa, navìa manco nasciuitö!
- Allora - r'plicà ö lupö - dö to pà ca antandö sparrà d' mi.
Mancö ghiò f'nëtö d' dì cö na granfada ö chiappà e sö mangìà.
St' cuntö fö n-v'ntà p' dd' ch'stiàë ca cö scusë faëzë,
ngannë e mbruoggujë s-approffìt'nö de nöcenteë.

San Fratello

N dauv e ng-agnieu, punturiei d' la sai, avaiu arr'vea ô stiss vadan.
Chjù n saura s-aff'rmea u dauv,
mantr ch' d-agnieu s' mies assei cchjù n giusa.
Agliàuri cau furfänt, murdù dû sa grean ptit,
zz'rchiea na scusa p-acc'm'nterlu.
P'rcò — ghj' diess — m' ntuòrbuli d-eua ch' m' stäch buvann?
Tutt scantea, d-agnieu ghj'arpunò:
- Scusa, cam pazz fer s-azzant ch' m' rr'mpruovi?
Iea bav d-eua ch' pässa prima ana sai tu.
E cau, scunfitt p' la munzagna, diess:
Siei masg fea tu pardest meu di iea.
E d-agnieu ghj-arbattò:
Ma se ancara iea n-avaia meanch anasciù!
Parch d' Giura, agliauri fu ta pätri a sparderm'.
E subt ghj' satea d'ncadd e s-u sbranea.
Sa faräbula è scritta p' quoi ch' suotamottu i nnuciant cun scusi feuzzi.

[Ulla]

Peyrol, che ne pensi? Sono persino diversi tra di loro. Ma la base di partenza sembra senza dubbio gallo-italico settentrionale. Piemontese del basso Piemonte, in particolare.

[Peyrol]

Si direi di si, specialmente il secondo e l'ultimo...dialetti della Lomellina con forti influssi alessandrini e, ovviamente, dei siculismi...noto anche certi ligurismi...''egua'' per esempio (sebbene presente anche nel basso orobico).

[Luchon20102012]

The Spaniards don't have anything to share with the Lombards. Atlanto-Celto-Germanic genes are much stronger among the Spaniards and as alfieb said, culturally they are worlds apart: the Lombards are fundamentally Southern European Latins where the Spaniards are an Atlantic people like some of the French and the Britons. Educate yourself!

Come on, northern italians are pretty close to resemble central europeans. They are always regardes as being lighter than spaniards.

[alfieb]

Come on, northern italians are pretty close to resemble central europeans. They are always regardes as being lighter than spaniards.

Spaniards are not a monolithic people.

[Smeagol]

I think North Italians, and Spaniards have about the same pigmentation.

[Luchon20102012]

Italians and spaniards are about the same in pigmentation. Northern italians are lighter, and southern italians probably darker than iberians as a whole.

[alfieb]

I don't know about that, but we definitely are. Darker than just about every native European ethnic group, other than Sardinians and Cypriots. I might be leaving someone else out, but feel free to add. :lol:

[Ulla]

"Into this environment came the Northern European Normans, and soon after, the Calabrese and Lombard colonists who transformed the island. Thus, post-conquest Sicily was characterized by a complex matrix of ethnic identities, several of which ran across confessional and cultural divides..."

http://books.google.it/books?id=PtXSAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91

[Ulla]

Come imparerai ben presto, tutto il mondo è ossessionato dalla Sicilia, purtroppo...

Ora ho perfettamente capito cosa volevi dirmi un anno fa. :)

[Sikeliot]

I've seen only y-dna studies of the town Piazza Armerina, a Lombard town in Sicily or one that had a large population of them, and the haplogroups are mostly J2, E1b1b, etc. so I suspect in many places the Lombard influence is more cultural than genetic, although it could have brought some people of haplogroup R1b.

[Ulla]

I've seen only y-dna studies of the town Piazza Armerina, a Lombard town in Sicily or one that had a large population of them, and the haplogroups are mostly J2, E1b1b, etc. so I suspect in many places the Lombard influence is more cultural than genetic, although it could have brought some people of haplogroup R1b.

Lombard communities are not American Indian reservations. It's very difficult to know how deep is genetic Lombard influence on the whole Sicily, because Sicily was not like USA in 50's when whites and blacks were separated and literally earmarked. Racial segregation in Sicily ended about 1400/1500, when ethnic struggle was replaced by a cultural and religious clash: rito latino (Lombard, Latinized Sicilians, Langobardi from Campania, French, Normans...) vs. rito greco (Byzantine-Greeks, Grecized Sicilians, converted Saracens...). And since 1500/1600 started many internal migrations. And you should know, since late XIX century millions of Sicilians emigrated and the population has halved.

Lombards in Piazza Armerina were the leading community since 1100/1200 till 1300/1400, but they lived near the castle in the top part of the city, forcing the Grecized population and the Saracens to live outside the city walls. Before their arrival Piazza was named Casalis Saracenorum!

The last genetic studies include all the municipal territories, so include also the Greek and Saracens historical settlments in the area. Nowdays Piazza Armerina has a very large population (22,000). J2, E1b1b in Piazza Armerina could have many derivations, even a Neolithic one.

The point is the amazing preservation in Sicily after 900 years of a language that is not Sicilian. Current studies concerns this amazing conservation only. Just linguistics, not genetics.

[Ulla]

Sicily Y-DNA frequencies:

R1b 26%
R1a 4.5%
I1 3.5%

I2b1 1%
I2a 3%

G 8,5%

J2 23%
J + J1 3,5 %
E1b1b 20,5%

T 4%
Q 1%


Lombards-Longobard (Germanic people) = I1, R1b (R1b-U106), R1a, I2a2a.
Lombards (Northern Italian people, name derived from Longobard) = R1b (R1b-U152), and, according to genetic studies on North-West Italy, lowest incidence of R1b-U106, I1, I2b2, R1a, G, J2, E1b1b...
Normans= I1
Franks = I1, R1b-U106.


Distribution of European J2 Y-chromosome DNA

Austria 9%
France 6%
Provence (France) 8%
Czech Republic 6%
Croatia 6%
Germany 4,5%
Netherlands 3,5%
England 3,5%
Russia 3%
Denmark 3%
Sweden 2,5%



Distribution of European E1b1b Y-chromosome DNA

Ile-de-France (France) 20.5
Serbia 18%
Provence (France) 10.5 %
Croatia 10%
South Germany 8 %
West Germany 8%
Austria 8%
Germany 5,5%

[Sikeliot]

That's true. Autosomally though, if Lombard influence is to be assumed to be high, then it means Sicilians before that would have had to be even more southward plotting (they're already the most southern Europeans, apart from Maltese, on pCA plots) headed into Cyprus.

I'm R1a though.. no idea where that came from. :D Normans probably, or Greeks.

[Peyrol]

I've seen only y-dna studies of the town Piazza Armerina, a Lombard town in Sicily or one that had a large population of them, and the haplogroups are mostly J2, E1b1b, etc. so I suspect in many places the Lombard influence is more cultural than genetic, although it could have brought some people of haplogroup R1b.

Lombards are mostly R1b-U152

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mAZESGfNIcc/Tdzh5VvVIlI/AAAAAAAABPo/vwwM_wXVJ-I/s1600/u152_frequency_map_2010_13_small.png



and even s28

http://adamsfamilydna.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

[Ulla]

That's true. Autosomally though, if Lombard influence is to be assumed to be high, then it means Sicilians before that would have had to be even more southward plotting (they're already the most southern Europeans, apart from Maltese, on pCA plots) headed into Cyprus.

I'm R1a though.. no idea where that came from. :D Normans probably, or Greeks.

In my opinion, i don't know your paternal surname, your family history, and your Y-Dna subclade, but R1a in Sicily is morelikely of Lombard-Langobards origins, from Longobardi from Campania (Salerno-Benevento area, originally a German people). They moved to Sicily during the latinization period under Norman dominion and they settled in the Lombard communities. But i repeat, Lombard communities were not American Indian reservations. And people left the communities to establish in Palermo, Catania, Messina, for many reasons.

[Sikeliot]

In my opinion, i don't know your paternal surname, your family history, and your Y-Dna subclade, but R1a in Sicily is morelikely of Lombard-Langobards origins, from Longobardi from Campania (Salerno-Benevento area, originally a German people). They moved to Sicily during the latinization period under Norman dominion and they settled in the Lombard communities. But i repeat, Lombard communities were not American Indian reservations. And people left the communities to establish in Palermo, Catania, Messina, for many reasons.


My last name is an Italianized version of a Greek word, although as far as I know it did not lead to any surnames in Greece.

[Peyrol]

R1a is obviously derived from your polish side.

[Sikeliot]

R1a is obviously derived from your polish side.

It's not.. my dad is R1a, it's my paternal haplogroup. Polish side is my maternal grandfather.

[Peyrol]

It's not.. my dad is R1a, it's my paternal haplogroup. Polish side is my maternal grandfather.

Then it's highly likely to be a lombard heritage.

[Sikeliot]

Then it's highly likely to be a lombard heritage.

Oh no.. I might be distantly northern Italian!
:lol:

My grandfather would find that funny, he hated northerners. Interestingly all of my relatives look thoroughly Southeastern European, and nothing like Lombards at all. The only one who looks slightly "northern" is my great grandmother but she is from Palermo, and on the opposite side of the family and had Armenoid features. She looked like Bette Midler.

[Ulla]

My last name is an Italianized version of a Greek word, although as far as I know it did not lead to any surnames in Greece.

A patronymic surname or what? however linguistic origin of a surname and ethnicity are not always connected.

[Ulla]

if Lombard influence is to be assumed to be high, then it means Sicilians before that would have had to be even more southward plotting

That's the point. Without Normans and Lombard legacy, Sicily would have had to be even more southward plotting.

[Sikeliot]

That's the point. Without Normans and Lombard legacy, Sicily would have had to be even more southward plotting.

Which means that since they are right now peripherally "European" (they're literally like Cypriots with an extra 10% North Euro), before the Normans they would have been plotting outside of Europe, on every PCA plot today.

[Ulla]

Which means that since they are right now peripherally "European" (they're literally like Cypriots with an extra 10% North Euro), before the Normans they would have been plotting outside of Europe, on every PCA plot today.


Cypriots are Greek-Orthodox, culturally south-eastern Europe. Sicilians, after all, are south-western Europeans. And even genetically, by Y-dna, Sicilians and Cypriots are much different.

Cypro

R1a 3%
R1b 9%
I1 0 %

I2*/I2a 8%
I2b 0%

G 9%

J2 37%
J*/J1 6%
E1b1b 20%

T 5%
Q 0%
N 0%


Sicily Y-DNA frequencies:

R1b 26%
R1a 4.5%
I1 3.5%

I2b1 1%
I2a 3%

G 8,5%

J2 23%
J + J1 3,5 %
E1b1b 20,5%

T 4%
Q 1%

[Peyrol]

Oh no.. I might be distantly northern Italian!
:lol:

My grandfather would find that funny, he hated northerners. Interestingly all of my relatives look thoroughly Southeastern European, and nothing like Lombards at all. The only one who looks slightly "northern" is my great grandmother but she is from Palermo, and on the opposite side of the family and had Armenoid features. She looked like Bette Midler.


We're talking about Middle Ages, don't worry.


What your grandfather tought about us?

[Ulla]

THE MUSLIMS OF SICILY UNDER CHRISTIAN RULE
ALEX METCALFE

"During the early twelfth century, Christian immigrants, many of whom had come from the north of the peninsula, poured into the north-eastern area of the island, the Val Démone, which was closest to the Italian mainland. Of particular note were the ‘Lombard’ communities, whose influence would come to dominate the towns of Novara, San Fratello, Nicosia, Sperlinga, Aidone and Piazza Armerina, thus forming something of a barrier across the island. Attempts to manage the displaced communities were hampered by a sustained, but poorly documented, baronial revolt after the death of Roger I.

Indeed, given the Muslim depopulation and Christian repopulation of the Val Démone, and the increasingly overt animosity between the ‘Lombard’ and Muslim communities, it is likely that the majority of Muslims were living well to the west of this belt by the second half of the twelfth century. For the year 1161, Falcandus noted that, ‘to the present day, they [the Muslims] hate the North Italian people so much that they have refused to live in that part of Sicily again, but even avoid going there at all’. The dramatic effects of demographic change are illustrated by the example of the north-eastern port of Messina. When the town was besieged by Roger in 1061, it is quite evident that there was a significant Muslim population. But Ibn Jubayr’s eye-witness description of it in 1184 tells of a city in which ‘no Muslims have settled’ and which was ‘crammed with worshipers of crosses [i.e. Christians]’. In contrast to Messina in the north-east, were the towns of the south-west such as Africa-facing Agrigento in which few Christians had settled until at least 1189."

"In spite of the changing environment, Muslims continued to play an important role in the socio-economic life of the island as merchants, craftsmen and farmers. Most of the Muslim population had settled in the west of the island where wheat had been grown since classical times. Economically, wheat was the most important crop of the entire kingdom, and its export to North Africa in return for gold was vital to both parties and explains much of Sicily’s expansionist policies and actions towards the North African cities. However, the wider picture was one of transition as Sicily’s longer distance trade slowly withered and the lucrative new commercial routes between Europe and the southern Mediterranean fell increasingly into the hands of Genoese, Pisan and Venetian merchants who had been quick to establish commercial bases in both Palermo and Messina. In general, the main demographic divisions that had existed during the Islamic period continued, but saw an increasing degree of polarisation between the settlement of the east and west of the island. So while the grain-growing, south-western Val di Mazara remained the zone of most dense Muslim settlement, Latin colonists entered through the Val Démone and the main Italian-facing ports from which they spread west. Although a good deal of variation and contrast remained at local levels, the overall effect of migration and repopulation were highly significant factors in shaping the island’s social composition between 1060 and 1250."

"The ‘Latin’ communities, especially those of immigrant northern Italian ‘Lombards’, were the Muslims’ principal enemy and relations between the two parties were often bitterly hostile. ‘Falcandus’ noted how a massacre of Muslims in Palermo in 1161 was followed by ‘Lombard’ disturbances on the other side of the island in Syracuse and Catania. Significantly, he recalled that some Muslims ‘secretly slipped away in flight or, assuming the guise of Christians, escaped to less dangerous Muslim towns in the southern parts of Sicily’."

[Sikeliot]

Last line explains why Agrigento is the darkest and most genetically Near Eastern province of Sicily.

[Ulla]

Lombard colonies in Sicily (XII-XIV centuries)

http://www.castellodisperlinga.it/upload/paesi_galloitalici_gallo_1_completa_3.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Lombard colonies in Sicily

http://www.castellodisperlinga.it/upload/paesi_galloitalici_gallo_1_completa_3.jpg

Interesting, mostly in the east. So it is possible that my haplogroup can be Lombard.

Southern Trapani, Agrigento, and coastal Caltanissetta seems to be the darkest and most "exotic" regions, due to the lack of Norman and Lombard influences in those regions compared to others.

[Peyrol]

Why some villages are blue and some others red?

[Ulla]

Why some villages are blue and some others red?

Red are those villages where their own Gallo-Italic language is still spoken daily.

Blue are those villages where there are Gallo-Italic influences in the local language only.

[Ulla]

Interesting, mostly in the east. So it is possible that my haplogroup can be Lombard.

Southern Trapani, Agrigento, and coastal Caltanissetta seems to be the darkest and most "exotic" regions, due to the lack of Norman and Lombard influences in those regions compared to others.

Yep. In the west Sicily there were only Corleone and Vicari as Lombard villages. But in Corleone and Vicari Lombards were never the largest ethnic group.

The leader of the Lombards of Corleone was Oddone de Camerana. Camerana is a municipality in the province of Cuneo, Piedmont.

http://www.bibliotecauniversitariapavia.it/biblioteca/mostre_virtuali/lombardi_a_corleone/premessa.html

[Tacitus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhAmGHpdso

An example of Gallo-Italic. It certainly sounds more like a northern Italian dialect than Sicilian.

[Peyrol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhAmGHpdso

An example of Gallo-Italic. It certainly sounds more like a northern Italian dialect than Sicilian.

Lol no...that's hardcore southern

[Tacitus]

Lol no...that's hardcore southern

Doesn't sound it to me, but I'm not that good with dialects anyway. Whenever I heard Sicilian it had more of a 'flow' than this.

[Panormus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhAmGHpdso

An example of Gallo-Italic. It certainly sounds more like a northern Italian dialect than Sicilian.


it sounds really similar to sicilian.I can understand everything she says

[Tacitus]

it sounds really similar to sicilian.I can understand everything she says

And this one?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJtALsNka5Q

[Sikeliot]

It sounds to me like a northern Italian dialect in a southern accent.

[Virtuous]

Now i would see the racial ispectors reading this thread...

:sherlock:

[Peyrol]

Doesn't sound it to me, but I'm not that good with dialects anyway. Whenever I heard Sicilian it had more of a 'flow' than this.

I can say is sicilian filled with galloitalic words....anyway, this is hardcore insubric (many galloitalic of Sicily have insubrian roots):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDxU8MuKal8

and this is hardcore south piemonteis (some gallosicilians were even from there) from 0:37:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnATEixs3vc

[Panormus]

And this one?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJtALsNka5Q


this one sounds even more familiar to me :)

[Peyrol]

This is what i would consider hardcore galloitalic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoVxtw5V3GQ

[Sikeliot]

The guy in the video above looks Greek, even though he's speaking a northern Italian dialect. :lol:

[Peyrol]

The guy in the video above looks Greek, even though he's speaking a northern Italian dialect. :lol:

Because he don't...this accent here in Turin would be considered hardcore southern.

I'ts just sicilian with some galloromance lonawords and intonations.

[Tacitus]

Because he don't...this accent here in Turin would be considered hardcore southern.

I'ts just sicilian with some galloromance lonawords and intonations.

It's some of the Gallo-Romance intonations that throw things off for me, but if Panormus understands most of it, I'll defer to him.

[Panormus]

It's some of the Gallo-Romance intonations that throw things off for me, but if Panormus understands most of it, I'll defer to him.

maybe some words are pronounced in a weird intonetions but overall its really easy to understand it

[Ulla]

It sounds to me like a northern Italian dialect in a southern accent.

Right. It's gallo-italic in a Sicilian accent. It's not Sicilian. He is reading a text, He is not one who usually speaks gallo-italic in his every day life.

[Ulla]

it sounds really similar to sicilian.I can understand everything she says

The intonation and some words are Sicilian. Many other words are not Sicilian. According to most linguists, the place in Sicily where gallo-italic is best preserved is San Fratello, a village destroyed by several landslides. In Piazza Armerina and Aidone there is no longer a daily use (videos comes from these places), and people speaks gallo-italic only for a poetic purpose (La Sicilia, in Cortelazzo et al. I dialetti italiani, UTET, Torino 2002). So I guess they have completely lost the original intonation.

Anyway, it's impossible that they maintained a northern Italian intonation after 800 years. And this applies to any language island, not to mention for a community that is more than 1,000 miles far from where it originated in his own language. To keep their original intonation, they should not have any relationship with other Sicilians who speak Sicilian. And this was probably possible until two centuries ago, before the spread of cars and TV. According to linguists Gallo-Italic in Sicily has been preserved because it was spoken by peasants and shepherds. Like any other dialect in Italy. We must consider that the galloitalic in Sicily does not enjoy any protection, even a regional protection (but Sicilian Regional Assembly and Italian State protect Albanian communities!). And that's truly unique. In Italy any historical foreign language is protected, while indigenous languages are not.

[Sikeliot]

In Italy any historical foreign language is protected, while indigenous languages are not.

Lombard dialect in Sicily is no more native than is Arbereshe. Both came from elsewhere.

[Ulla]

this one sounds even more familiar to me :)

It sounds familiar to you because of his Sicilian accent.

But the same text read by someone from Val Bormida, I guess that could be sound less familiar to you.

[Ulla]

Lombard dialect in Sicily is no more native than is Arbereshe. Both came from elsewhere.

I know. But you should try to explain to our politicians.

[Sikeliot]

I know. But you should try to explain to our politicians.

I'm most concerned with preserving Sicilian, since it is now taking the back seat to standard Italian, an import from Tuscany. o.0

[Ulla]

I'm most concerned with preserving Sicilian, since it is now taking the back seat to standard Italian, an import from Tuscany. o.0

Sicilian language is not really in danger of extinction. Gallo-Italics of Sicily is in danger of extinction.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilian language is not really in danger of extinction. Gallo-Italics of Sicily is in danger of extinction.

I am also concerned with preserving Calabrian Greek, and Salentine Greek, but I don't know how those will be preserved since they are not taught in schools.

[Ulla]

Canto from San Fratello,
first half of 1900.


La Bronti e la Cazzina s'affirrean,
d'eutr giuorn nta la vaneda dû Cugiuntìan,
u cippan e la unieda si strazzean,
u bust e li muräni si scianchìan.
Ulai savar pircò ss bauni fomni u fean?
P'amaur dû partafuoghj di Dan Turìan.

[Ulla]

I am also concerned with preserving Calabrian Greek, and Salentine Greek, but I don't know how those will be preserved since they are not taught in schools.

I don't know if they are in danger or not. Anyway every Greek language minority in Italy is protected.

[Ulla]

The guy in the video above looks Greek, even though he's speaking a northern Italian dialect. :lol:

De Andrè? He is from Genova of Piedmontese origin. But his surname is very rare even in Piedmont and Liguria.

[Sikeliot]

De Andrè? He is from Genova of Piedmontese origin. But his surname is very rare even in Piedmont and Liguria.

I still stand by what I said the first time :lol:

[Anglojew]

:picard1:

The Lummardi have nothing to do with Spaniards. I've spent a good amount of time in Ciazza, a Lombard town in Sicily, and they don't look, act, or speak like Spaniards.

There are towns in Sicily that were founded by Iberians and have lots of Iberian surnames, but that's not the case here.

Often Sephardis

[Peyrol]

The guy in the video above looks Greek, even though he's speaking a northern Italian dialect. :lol:

De Andrè don't look greek at all...look panwestern

http://digiphotostatic.libero.it/lo_snorki/med/2857249b92_2404629_med.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NQdRwNauJes/T1MZKf-LZDI/AAAAAAAAAFk/J4B1g8ieiWY/s1600/de+andre%27.jpeg

http://www.viadelcampo.com/1966tuttofda_front_5.jpg

[Panormus]

The intonation and some words are Sicilian. Many other words are not Sicilian. According to most linguists, the place in Sicily where gallo-italic is best preserved is San Fratello, a village destroyed by several landslides. In Piazza Armerina and Aidone there is no longer a daily use (videos comes from these places), and people speaks gallo-italic only for a poetic purpose (La Sicilia, in Cortelazzo et al. I dialetti italiani, UTET, Torino 2002). So I guess they have completely lost the original intonation.

Anyway, it's impossible that they maintained a northern Italian intonation after 800 years. And this applies to any language island, not to mention for a community that is more than 1,000 miles far from where it originated in his own language. To keep their original intonation, they should not have any relationship with other Sicilians who speak Sicilian. And this was probably possible until two centuries ago, before the spread of cars and TV. According to linguists Gallo-Italic in Sicily has been preserved because it was spoken by peasants and shepherds. Like any other dialect in Italy. We must consider that the galloitalic in Sicily does not enjoy any protection, even a regional protection (but Sicilian Regional Assembly and Italian State protect Albanian communities!). And that's truly unique. In Italy any historical foreign language is protected, while indigenous languages are not.


i can ensure you that most of the words are Sicilians

[Peyrol]

...not exactly the same...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jxI9khh08g




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0vzJiJC-c8

[Ulla]

Often Sephardis

Boom! A source? There were some jewish communities in Sicily, but they have nothing to do with Northern Italian Lombards. In San Fratello is still active an anti-Semitic feast called I Giudei. Jewish people were all expelled from Sicily after 1492.

[Peyrol]

Boom! A source? There were some jewish communities in Sicily, but they have nothing to do with Northern Italian Lombards. In San Fratello is still active an anti-Semitic feast called I Giudei. Jewish people were all expelled from Sicily after 1492.

*sikeliot fainted*

[ab000]

The descendants of the Lombards in Sicily are primarily those who live in and speak Gallo-Italic languages, which are still spoken in some towns. Lombards also, for the record, do not look anything like Spaniards-- they would if anything be similar to modern day populations living near the Alps including modern Lombards.

And Spanish genes in Sicily are very insignificant. On 23andme I've seen maybe one Sicilian get any Iberian score and I am sharing with people from all over the island. However, Lombard genes are harder to quantify through 23andme due to their "Italian" cluster, but I'd expect Lombards to have a stronger impact genetically.

Yes but they're not just Germanic Celtics they're Germanic Celtics plus Mediterranean. Italy has many different ethnic groups. If a Sicilian is Lombardic the next Sicilian may be something else.

[ab000]

De Andrè don't look greek at all...look panwestern

http://digiphotostatic.libero.it/lo_snorki/med/2857249b92_2404629_med.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NQdRwNauJes/T1MZKf-LZDI/AAAAAAAAAFk/J4B1g8ieiWY/s1600/de+andre%27.jpeg

http://www.viadelcampo.com/1966tuttofda_front_5.jpg

Could pass in some Central European countries.

[Ulla]

i can ensure you that most of the words are Sicilians

Examples? I'm studying linguistics, explain me. I'm looking for the original text and we will check it verbatim. :)

What are the Sicilian words in this text and which are not?

Canto from San Fratello,
first half of 1900.


La Bronti e la Cazzina s'affirrean,
d'eutr giuorn nta la vaneda dû Cugiuntìan,
u cippan e la unieda si strazzean,
u bust e li muräni si scianchìan.
Ulai savar pircò ss bauni fomni u fean?
P'amaur dû partafuoghj di Dan Turìan.

[Ulla]

...not exactly the same...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jxI9khh08g

Peyrol, you're making a very naive mistake. :)

This comparison is devoid of any value. Current Gallo-Italics dialects spoken in Piedmont and Liguria aren't even the same of medieval times.

It's like comparing the Tuscan medieval spoken by Dante with the Tuscan spoken by Matteo Renzi. You know that is a nonsense.

[Ulla]

Piedmont language

Verbo esse ("essere")

Mi i son
Ti it ses
Chiel/chila a l'é
Noiàutri i soma
Voiàutri i seve
Lor a son


mi = io
ti = tu
chièl / chila = egli, esso / ella, essa
noi (noiàutri / noiàutre)= noi (noialtri, noialtre)
voi (voiàutri / voiàutre)= voi (voialtri, voialtre)
lor (loràutri / loràutre)= loro, essi, esse

Just asking to Sicilian guys. Noiàutri and Voiàutri are also in Sicilian?

[Panormus]

Examples? I'm studying linguistics, explain me. I'm looking for the original text and we will check it verbatim. :)

What are the Sicilian words in this text and which are not?

Canto from San Fratello,
first half of 1900.


La Bronti e la Cazzina s'affirrean,
d'eutr giuorn nta la vaneda dû Cugiuntìan,
u cippan e la unieda si strazzean,
u bust e li muräni si scianchìan.
Ulai savar pircò ss bauni fomni u fean?
P'amaur dû partafuoghj di Dan Turìan.


i cant really understand much about that text but in those videos posted by Franico i can spot many Sicilian words.I dont see any similarity between the language spoken in those videos and the text posted by you :(

[Tacitus]

OK, found a video from San Fratello, the local version of Gallo-Italic starts at 3:25


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bt0XnY8WTI

[Tacitus]

Examples? I'm studying linguistics, explain me. I'm looking for the original text and we will check it verbatim. :)

What are the Sicilian words in this text and which are not?

Canto from San Fratello,
first half of 1900.


La Bronti e la Cazzina s'affirrean,
d'eutr giuorn nta la vaneda dû Cugiuntìan,
u cippan e la unieda si strazzean,
u bust e li muräni si scianchìan.
Ulai savar pircò ss bauni fomni u fean?
P'amaur dû partafuoghj di Dan Turìan.

The video I posted of the guy reading the poem provides the words on the Youtube page. Just click the youtube icon on the video.

[Ulla]

i cant really understand much about that text but in those videos posted by Franico i can spot many Sicilian words.I dont see any similarity between the language spoken in those videos and the text posted by you :(

You wrote that most of the words are Sicilians but you can't really understand much about the text. Mmm... Isn't it a contradiction? :)

Anyhow it's a well known fact that Gallo-Italics of Sicily contains words derived from Sicilian (as matter of fact it is considered separately from other northern Italian dialects), Sicilian loanwords just like in Arbereshe (from Sicilian, Calabrian...) and in Griko (from Calabrian, Apulian).

Another well known fact it's that every "lombard comune" in Sicily has its own dialect. San Fratello dialect is different from Novara di Sicilia, Aidone is different from Nicosia... and so on.

[Ulla]

OK, found a video from San Fratello, the local version of Gallo-Italic starts at 3:25


The intonation is Southern-Italian, the language is a Gallo-Italic with Sicilian loanwords in a southern linguistic environment. Those who expect a perfect Piedmontese or Ligurian intonation, has never opened a linguistics book in their whole life.

A similar example, linguistically, it's the Corsican language that is an ancient Tuscan language with a deep southern intonation. Or the Ligurian from Bonifacio (south Corsica) that is a Gallo-Italic language in an extreme southern intonation. Both they formed in medieval ages.

[Ulla]

For those who read Italian

I lombardi a Corleone. Documenti e cronache di una migrazione antica da nord a sud.

http://www.bibliotecauniversitariapavia.it/biblioteca/mostre_virtuali/lombardi_a_corleone/

[Panormus]

You wrote that most of the words are Sicilians but you can't really understand much about the text. Mmm... Isn't it a contradiction? :)

Anyhow it's a well known fact that Gallo-Italics of Sicily contains words derived from Sicilian (as matter of fact it is considered separately from other northern Italian dialects), Sicilian loanwords just like in Arbereshe (from Sicilian, Calabrian...) and in Griko (from Calabrian, Apulian).

Another well known fact it's that every "lombard comune" in Sicily has its own dialect. San Fratello dialect is different from Novara di Sicilia, Aidone is different from Nicosia... and so on.


i wrote that i can understand most of the words in those 2 videos...but the text you posted looks totally different

[Peyrol]

For those who read Italian

I lombardi a Corleone. Documenti e cronache di una migrazione antica da nord a sud.

http://www.bibliotecauniversitariapavia.it/biblioteca/mostre_virtuali/lombardi_a_corleone/


The surname Provenzano is very indicative about the place of origin of the ancestors...

[Ulla]

The surname Provenzano is very indicative about the place of origin of the ancestors...

True. It means "from Provence, France".

[Peyrol]

True. It means "from Provence, France".

The best place on Earth


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml4kV1wre7A

[Rudel]

Piedmont language

Verbo esse ("essere")

Mi i son
Ti it ses
Chiel/chila a l'é
Noiàutri i soma
Voiàutri i seve
Lor a son


mi = io
ti = tu
chièl / chila = egli, esso / ella, essa
noi (noiàutri / noiàutre)= noi (noialtri, noialtre)
voi (voiàutri / voiàutre)= voi (voialtri, voialtre)
lor (loràutri / loràutre)= loro, essi, esse

Just asking to Sicilian guys. Noiàutri and Voiàutri are also in Sicilian?

Looks like nautre and vautre in Provençal.


The surname Provenzano is very indicative about the place of origin of the ancestors...
In the Middle Ages Provence could have a larger meaning than what's now known as Provence (that is the County of Provence), and could mean Southern France in general.

[Peyrol]

Looks like nautre and vautre in Provençal.




sounds legit...



Lo lop davala, pichon barra la pòrta
lo lop davala, filhet, para te de dins

Sem encar ici, a dreiçar la barriera
contra i senhors d'la piana
sem encar ici, a dreiçar la bandiera
bestias buissàas en la tana

es l'ora bòna
Ieu fòra de la tana
es l'ora bòna
anem parar lo lop

Sem encar ici, apres de la Crosada,
apres d'i Dragonalhas
sem encar ici, a chamar l'amassada
per contunhar batalha

es l'ora bòna
Ieu fòra de la tana
es l'ora bòna
anem parar lo lop

Sem encar ici, ren mac per far baladas
mas per piantar la grana
sem encar ici, nus auti de las valadas
valadas occitanas




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMpfFcF-zug

[Smaug]

Would it be possible to post pictures of these Lombards of Sicily. I'm curious to see how they look like.

[Peyrol]

Would it be possible to post pictures of these Lombards of Sicily. I'm curious to see how they look like.

Like other sicilians i think...the only one famous sicilian of ''lombard'' ancestor i can think is the ''Ultimate Godfather'' of Cosa Nostra, Bernardo Provenzano

http://withfriendship.com/images/i/44913/Bernardo_Provenzano-pic.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Jewish people were all expelled from Sicily after 1492.

I am very dubious about claims that all of any group were expelled, considering that Sicilians and Jews are genetically very close. Very weird how Jews, Phoenicians, etc were all expelled yet Sicilians are genetically closer to them, whereas Normans and Lombards swarmed in by the dozens yet their genes are almost undetectable, isn't it??


Like other sicilians i think...the only one famous sicilian of ''lombard'' ancestor i can think is the ''Ultimate Godfather'' of Cosa Nostra, Bernardo Provenzano

http://withfriendship.com/images/i/44913/Bernardo_Provenzano-pic.jpg


He looks Polish or Czech oddly.

Anyway if Nicosia is a Lombard town it doesn't show phenotypically, they are very dark there even compared to neighboring areas.

[MINARDOWICZ]

I am very dubious about claims that all of any group were expelled, considering that Sicilians and Jews are genetically very close. Very weird how Jews, Phoenicians, etc were all expelled yet Sicilians are genetically closer to them, whereas Normans and Lombards swarmed in by the dozens yet their genes are almost undetectable, isn't it??




He looks Polish or Czech oddly.

Anyway if Nicosia is a Lombard town it doesn't show phenotypically, they are very dark there even compared to neighboring areas.


LOL

Hey, that guy claiming they were expelled in 1492 is crazy, as it is a fact that many were CONVERTED, not ALL were expelled. Many of them stayed... and some RE-EMERGED AS JEWS NOT LONG AFTER! This is where Italkim are from. :p

[Rudel]

Sem encar ici, apres de la Crosada,
apres d'i Dragonalhas
sem encar ici, a chamar l'amassada
per contunhar batalha

God, that always gets me mad. I mean, the crusade against the Albigeois (fuckin' Languedocians) and the dragonades to root out the Protestants were a good thing. Plus the inhabitants of the valadas weren't concerned by those.
You can feel that the Occitanist movement was born out of the revolutionary left of the South-West, pretty much the complete opposite of the regionalism that was born in Provence.


http://youtu.be/NyOnGy1onCI

[Peyrol]

A friend of mine always tell me that the ruin of ''Occitania''...are the occitanists.

[Sikeliot]

LOL

Hey, that guy claiming they were expelled in 1492 is crazy, as it is a fact that many were CONVERTED, not ALL were expelled. Many of them stayed... and some RE-EMERGED AS JEWS NOT LONG AFTER! This is where Italkim are from. :p

I am just frustrated to see people saying things that are unsupported by science and genetics. No, not all the Jews nor all the Phoenicians were expelled, and no, there is no significant (i.e. over 15%) of Lombard or Norman in Sicilians, and if there is it means that the population would have had to have almost 0% Northern European and Western European genes beforehand which is unlikely for any European population.

[Ulla]

Would it be possible to post pictures of these Lombards of Sicily. I'm curious to see how they look like.

They are not Native Americans. And I guess it is difficult to distinguish who has a Lombard lineage only by those who mixed with other Sicilians. And there are no genetic studies on that; do not even exist on Piedmont, Lombardy and Liguria to reconstruct the DNA of the Middle Ages.

[Smaug]

They are not Native Americans. And I guess it is difficult to distinguish who has a Lombard lineage only by those who mixed with other Sicilians. And there are no genetic studies on that; do not even exist on Piedmont, Lombardy and Liguria to reconstruct the DNA of the Middle Ages.

Of course they are not Native American.

[Sikeliot]

I can post people from known Lombard towns, if someone gives me a list.

[Ulla]

In the Middle Ages Provence could have a larger meaning than what's now known as Provence (that is the County of Provence), and could mean Southern France in general.

True.

"Lombard" had a large meaning Italy and meant Northern Italy in generale (in many case also referred to Tuscans).

[Peyrol]

I can post people from known Lombard towns, if someone gives me a list.

The maps posted by Ulla.

Btw after centuries they look like regular sicilians i think.

[Sikeliot]

The maps posted by Ulla.

Btw after centuries they look like regular sicilians i think.

I think so, yes. It's odd because Piazza Armerina is a Lombard town, but I have seen in a haplogroup study of Sicily that they have mostly E1b1b and J2.

[Ulla]

LOL

Hey, that guy claiming they were expelled in 1492 is crazy, as it is a fact that many were CONVERTED, not ALL were expelled. Many of them stayed... and some RE-EMERGED AS JEWS NOT LONG AFTER! This is where Italkim are from. :p

Please, go back to play with your playstation. :)

[Peyrol]

italkim are mostly tuscans or roman jews.
Roman jews are direcly derived from middle eastern jews, same for piemonteis jews (''Juifes'') which literally stand out among native piemonteis populations.

[Ulla]

I think so, yes. It's odd because Piazza Armerina is a Lombard town, but I have seen in a haplogroup study of Sicily that they have mostly E1b1b and J2.

Every Lombard town was divided into two main ethnic group: the Italo-Lombards (catholic) and the Greeks (Orthodox). Until 1500 the separation was very stiff. After XVI century the ethnic conflict became a religious clash: catholics vs orthodoxs.

Piazza Armerina, as most Lombard villages, was repopulated by Lombards, not founded, but it was, before their arrival, a Greek-Saracen village.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Please, go back to play with your playstation. :)

Playstation? HAHAHA! Go read a fucking history book. EVERYONE knows the jews were NOT completely expelled then... and it wasn't even in 1492 for Italians, proves how ignorant you are. It was a LONG process, you know. Go read it. Many were held in certain places. MANY were converted as well. Also, many practiced in secret and re-emerged. You can make angry replies all you want but the fucking FACTS remain. Why is this of concern to you anyways, you have little to do with the south you fucking troll.

[Peyrol]

Playstation? HAHAHA! Go read a fucking history book. EVERYONE knows the jews were NOT completely expelled then... and it wasn't even in 1492 for Italians, proves how ignorant you are. It was a LONG process, you know. Go read it. Many were held in certain places. MANY were converted as well. Also, many practiced in secret and re-emerged. You can make angry replies all you want but the fucking FACTS remain. Why is this of concern to you anyways, you have little to do with the south you fucking troll.

Piemonteis jews, for example, never converted.
Savoyarde state was quite toleran with them....but they auto-segregated.

Even today their phenotype is quite...steroetypical jew, after many centuries.

[Ulla]

I can post people from known Lombard towns, if someone gives me a list.

It's an approach devoid of any scientific value, you should know it. There is no guarantee that the photos you post really belongs to someone who is descended from Northen-Italian Lombards. The fact that one lives in Piazza Armerina does not automatically mean that he is a "Lombard", even if he speaks some Gallo-Italic. Cultural assimilation may have occurred.

[Ulla]

Playstation? HAHAHA! Go read a fucking history book. EVERYONE knows the jews were NOT completely expelled then... and it wasn't even in 1492 for Italians, proves how ignorant you are. It was a LONG process, you know. Go read it. Many were held in certain places. MANY were converted as well. Also, many practiced in secret and re-emerged. You can make angry replies all you want but the fucking FACTS remain. Why is this of concern to you anyways, you have little to do with the south you fucking troll.

You're right. In fact, you seem to be descended from one of those converted Jewish.

[Ulla]

I am very dubious about claims that all of any group were expelled, considering that Sicilians and Jews are genetically very close. Very weird how Jews, Phoenicians, etc were all expelled yet Sicilians are genetically closer to them, whereas Normans and Lombards swarmed in by the dozens yet their genes are almost undetectable, isn't it??

We will talk later about this.


He looks Polish or Czech oddly.

Anyway if Nicosia is a Lombard town it doesn't show phenotypically, they are very dark there even compared to neighboring areas.

Nicosia has 14.340 inhabitants, too many to think that Nicosia today is inhabited only by descendants of the Lombards. And as i told you, Nicosia was divided in two distinct ethnic groups for many centuries.

[MINARDOWICZ]

You're right. In fact, you seem to be descended from one of those converted Jewish.

Actually, I believe I am. LOL. So what? I am also part Ashkenazi from Poland on top of it. Wouldn't change me too much. Is this some sort of pitiful attempt to insult me? LOL.

[Ulla]

Looks like nautre and vautre in Provençal.


Yep, I think that both in Piedmont and in Sicily could have a common influence from Provençal. But that's just my opinion, when I have time I'll try to find some study.

[Ulla]

Actually, I believe I am. LOL. So what? I am also part Ashkenazi from Poland on top of it. Wouldn't change me too much. Is this some sort of pitiful attempt to insult me? LOL.

see, you confirm me that you are doing propaganda then.

[MINARDOWICZ]

see, you confirm me that you are doing propaganda then.

Because I am part Ashkenazic? HAHAHAHAHA! You are a brilliant troll, you know that? I'm about as cypto as it gets anyways... 1/16 Ashkenazic. LOL.

[Peyrol]

The most famous piemontese-judean ever....very stereotypical jewish look

http://www.dirittodicritica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Primo-Levi-24.jpg

[Sikeliot]

We will talk later about this.

It's true though. Sicilians are not genetically what should be if they have no Phoenician ancestry but a lot of Norman and Lombard, which clearly means we trust the genes and not the supposed history.

[Ulla]

It's true though. Sicilians are not genetically what should be if they have no Phoenician ancestry but a lot of Norman and Lombard, which clearly means we trust the genes and not the supposed history.

Sikeliot, about genetics as a source of absolute truth. You must consider, however, that the samples are still few, and in a country as diverse as Italy, a new academic study can change a lot the previous percentages. Then, the Italians who use genetic genealogy companies such as 23andMe or Family Tree DNA are still very few. Italians care very little to know what haplogroup they belong. In Italy, regional and cultural belonging is much more important than any reconstruction through genetics.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, about genetics as a source of absolute truth. You must consider, however, that the samples are still few, and in a country as diverse as Italy, a new academic study can change a lot the previous percentages.

Enough have been studied to say with good certainty.

[Ulla]

Enough have been studied to say with good certainty.

We have a general point of view, but not data enough to reconstruct many local situations. In my opinion, of course.

[Sikeliot]

We have a general point of view, but not data enough to reconstruct many local situations. In my opinion, of course.

Well what is odd is Lombard towns are mostly inland, but inland Sicily is a lot more like Calabria with higher Neolithic genes and the more "European" region on the island is coastal Palermo.

[Ulla]

Well what is odd is Lombard towns are mostly inland, but inland Sicily is a lot more like Calabria with higher Neolithic genes and the more "European" region on the island is coastal Palermo.

Palermo is the regional political, so many migrations from all the Sicilian places and even from the rest of Italy.

Lombard towns are mostly inland for historical and military reasons, were military bases built around a castle controlled by Lombard soldiers.

[Peyrol]

That's true. Autosomally though, if Lombard influence is to be assumed to be high, then it means Sicilians before that would have had to be even more southward plotting (they're already the most southern Europeans, apart from Maltese, on pCA plots) headed into Cyprus.

I'm R1a though.. no idea where that came from. :D Normans probably, or Greeks.

I suspect this too.

[Sikeliot]

I suspect this too.

I think that since we know many Lombards came to Sicily their impact couldn't have been small.. Thus they contribute most if not all of our non East med or non SE Euro genes. Thus removing their input makes Sicily more like today's Cypriots.

[Ianus]

I don't think Sicilians before Lombard settlements were like Cypriots. I think you overestimate the correlation between genotype anf phenotype

[Sikeliot]

I don't think Sicilians before Lombard settlements were like Cypriots. I think you overestimate the correlation between genotype anf phenotype

Well, if Lombards had any impact at all, given that Sicilians cluster on the edge of Europe now, imagine where they must have been before...

[Peyrol]

Well, if Lombards had any impact at all, given that Sicilians cluster on the edge of Europe now, imagine where they must have been before...

The lombards on 23 and me cluster in the border between north and south Europe, with many of them in the north or even in the eastern euro range.

[Sikeliot]

The lombards on 23 and me cluster in the border between north and south Europe, with many of them in the north or even in the eastern euro range.

I know. But what I mean is that Sicilians must have significant Lombard ancestry, so once you account for that you don't have much North or West Euro in them anymore.

What do you think would be the closest to Sicilians before the Normans and Lombards? Surely not Greeks since they have other northern ancestry from different sources.

[Peyrol]

Hard to say. Probabily dodecanese islanders since they're virtually almost pure doric people, unlike continentals.

[Sikeliot]

Hard to say. Probabily dodecanese islanders since they're virtually almost pure doric people, unlike continentals.

Dodecanese cluster with Sicilians today. So it couldn't have been that.. they cluster with Sicilians after the hypothetical Lombard and Norman influences, which means the Dorians must have an equally strong northern shift dating back to ancient times.

[Ulla]

http://www.qcodemag.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/paesi_galloitalici_gallo_1_completa_3.jpg

[alfieb]

http://www.qcodemag.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/paesi_galloitalici_gallo_1_completa_3.jpg

Qual'è la differenza tra rossa e blu?

[Ulla]

Qual'è la differenza tra rossa e blu?

Rossa: paese esclusivamente galloitalico

Blu: paese con alcune tracce galloitaliche

Nero: paese galloitalico scomparso o senza nessuna traccia galloitalica

Anyway, it's a homemade map.

http://www.castellodisperlinga.it/subpagina.php?idmenu=2&&idsubmenu=13


According to linguists the towns where is still spoken today Gallo-Italic are San Fratello, Sperlinga, Nicosia, Novara di Sicilia, and, mostly for ludic purposes (like poetry contests), Aidone and Piazza Armerina.

In Italiano ma molto interessante.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/comunita-gallo-italica_%28Enciclopedia_dell%27Italiano%29/

[alfieb]

Not true. I've been to Ciazza. Some people there still speak it. Still signs on restaurants in Lummarda.

[Ulla]

Not true. I've been to Ciazza. Some people there still speak it. Still signs on restaurants in Lummarda.

I believe you, I haven't never been in a Lombard Sicilian town.

According to linguists in Ciazza they haven't anymore the daily use as in San Fratello where is still spoken by most part of the population. I guess that it doesn't imply that in Ciazza no one speak Gallo-Italic.

[alfieb]

It's hard to find photos of the town itself, because just about everything focuses on the floor mosaics of the Roman villa.

[Ulla]

It's hard to find photos of the town itself, because just about everything focuses on the floor mosaics of the Roman villa.

Palio dei Normanni, Piazza Armerina

http://www.gds.it/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/ENNA/281826_album/palio_normanni_piazza_armerina%20%284%29.jpg

http://www.informasicilia.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/CAVALIERI_PIAZZA_ARMERINA.jpg

http://www.hotelmarconi.sicilia.it/fig/luoghi-turistici-siciliani/palio-normanni.jpg

http://www.gds.it/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/ENNA/281826_album/palio_normanni_piazza_armerina%20%285%29.jpg

http://www.ecodisicilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Piazza-Armerina-Palio.jpg

http://www.startnews.it/album_fotografici/albumpalio09_01/images/P1050173.jpg

http://www.startnews.it/GAllerie_foto/Gallerie_articoi/galleria/palio_arena_ente.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--NdmogG7JLA/UgwVbWKrruI/AAAAAAAATKI/1WhcanWTPu0/s1600/1157450_10200287446858694_781465987_n.jpg

http://www.startnews.it/GAllerie_foto/Gallerie_articoi/galleria/alexbelli_Palio_2.jpg

http://www.vincenzofileccia.it/gallerie_foto/Il_Palio_dei_Normanni/PIAZZA_ARMERINA_10-08-12_05.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--1oGCQ8BHHk/T28Hf5OvJHI/AAAAAAAAGUE/yXe-xQ8RZbY/s1600/avalon+18+marzo+291.jpg

http://img1.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/www1-1/171/171066/444872/iNormanniGiostradelSaraceno026-vi.jpg

http://www.gds.it/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/ENNA/281826_album/palio_normanni_piazza_armerina%20%283%29.JPG

http://www.gds.it/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/ENNA/281826_album/palio_normanni_piazza_armerina%20%289%29.jpg

[Tiberio]

I have founded that link about Lombards of Sicily with a map.
http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/334/GalloItalic-city-of-Sicily#.VKp85CuG-Ok

http://s17.postimg.org/8k60gbdin/vncxm1.gif (http://postimage.org/)

Add Lombards of Basilicata.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetti_gallo-italici_di_Basilicata

And Provenzal of Puglia.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoranza_francoprovenzale_in_Puglia

[Ulla]

Add Lombards of Basilicata.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetti_gallo-italici_di_Basilicata

And Provenzal of Puglia.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoranza_francoprovenzale_in_Puglia

Bella la mappa! Incredibile in quanti Paesi della Sicilia orientale ci siano state "colonie" lombarde-altoitaliane.

There are also the Occitans in Calabria in Guardia Piemontese

http://www.chambradoc.it/englishTexts/occitansInCalabriaGuardiaPiemontese.page

[Ulla]

This is a Lombard of Sicily.

Giovanni Lanza di Trabia (full name Giuseppe Giovanni Luigi Maria Enrico Lanza di Trabia-Branciforte), known as Lanza del Vasto, born in San Vito dei Normanni, Apulia, but descendant of a Sicilian family of Piedmontese origin (likely collateral branch of Aleramici Del Vasto, conti d'Agliano e marchesi di Busca) with some degree of Frankish and Norman ancestry as well. Lanza family from Piedmont settled to Sicily after the Norman conquest.

Giovanni Lanza di Trabia (on the left) with French writer Luc Dietrich (on the right)
http://www.lanzadelvasto.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Photo-Dialogues1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Lanza_ecrivant.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3RPMk5Ix6ig/TTdyjE92NDI/AAAAAAAAP8Q/OIX0qSglPDw/s1600/Lanza_del_vasto.jpg

The Lanza brothers

http://lanzadelvasto.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/1.-Le-fils-lami-04-LDV-A1-005-1913-001.jpg

[Rudel]

Bella la mappa! Incredibile in quanti Paesi della Sicilia orientale ci siano state "colonie" lombarde-altoitaliane.

There are also the Occitans in Calabria in Guardia Piemontese

http://www.chambradoc.it/englishTexts/occitansInCalabriaGuardiaPiemontese.page
I've heard once the speech of people from one of these too villages, I was astonished at how well the tongue was preserved.

[Peter Nirsch]

it's ridiculous, you are speaking about people who arrived in Sicily in the 11 century and you consider them as a different community. I think they had been now assimilated and integrated with sicilians

[Ianus]

Ma guarda un po' chi si rifà vivo, il nostro amico Peter e sempre a vomitare minchiate come al solito

[Tiberio]

They are now sicilians, sure more sicilians than the guidos and the lombard influences here are everywhere since lombard families settled also the big cities but absorbed in the greek-italic population.

[Tiberio]

City of San Fratello
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DJRg6srP3M

Spiegazione della diffusione dei gallo italici
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lR6pO_jAzc

Morgantina in Gallo Italico
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhAmGHpdso

[Tiberio]

Un lupo ed un agnello di Fedro in the dialect of Piazza Armerina, the Gallo-Italic speakers of Sicily have many differences from city to city for the influences.
Piazza Armerina have many loans from the Provençal.

'N lupu e 'n agnèu, morti d' sè, s' giungìnu a bèv ö stiss sciùm.
N-ön capp' gghj-'era u lupu, ciù sötta gghj-era l'agnèu.
Allöra dd' f'tös du lupu, ch-avèa a panza vacanta,
cum'nzà a 'nguiatèlu p' sciarrèr's cu jèu
-Oh d'sgrazià, t' ddèvi d' döcch ch' m' stè ddurdiànn tutta l-egua?
E l-aggnèu:
- Nan t' 'ns'ddiè, l-egua passa prima d' n' tì, tu ma ste ddurdiànn a mì!
U lupu, truvànn's no tört, ggh' diss:
- Oia s'ntùt ch' tu, sèi mesgi com a öra, sparràvi d' mì cu l-amisgi.
E jèu: - Ma chi stè 'ncucchiànn'?
Jè, sei mesgi fà, manch avea nasciùit!
- Butàna di guai! Allöra fu dd' bècch d' to pà a sparrèr d' mi.
E senza savèr nè ddèzz e nè scriv, cu 'na granfaggnàda su spurpà d' bedda e bedda.
Sti paröddi l-ana sènt ddi gent' ch' cunnà'nn'nu i 'nucènti 'ngiustamènt.

[Tiberio]

The same text in the dialect of Aidone.

Un lup′, mort′ d′se′ e sicch′ d′ sìa,
s' truvau a b′v′rér′s ô sciùm′.
Z′rànn′ l-ugg′, vìtt′ ca nô basc′
gghj-era un gn′ddìt′ tèn′r′ e sav′rùs′.
Gghj′ fis′ p′tìt′, ma, p′ mìnt′s a post′ a cuscìnza,
z′rcàva na calùnnia p′ sciarr′iér′s.
Accuscì s′ mis′ a vusgiè.
- P′rchì m′ stai ddurdiànn′ l-eua mintr′ ìja stau b′vìnn′?
U gnedd′ scantait′, s′ r′cugghì nê robb′ e ggh′ r′spunnì:
- Tu m-aia p′rduné , ma com′ pozz′ ddurdièr′
l-eua a tìia ch′ sii′ ciù nô iaut'?
U lùp′, pùr′ r′canuscìnn′ ch-avìva tort′,
z′rcàu n-autra calùnnia e gghj′ dìss′:
- Sii misg′ com′ a ura tu m′ murmuliàv′t′!
U gn′ddìtt′ mort′ nâ pedd′ r′spunnì:
- Voss′gn′rìa iav′ tort′,
ija atànn′ manch′ ava nasciùit′!
- Buttana dû nfern′ ! Allura fu ta patr′ ch′ sparrau d′ mija!
E d′sginn′ accuscì, n-on ditt′ e un fait′,
u granfà e sû spurpà, pur′ savinn′ ch′ nan aviva curpa.
St′ parodd′ s′ l-àn-a sìnt′r cudd′
ch′ cunnàn′n′ i nuccìnt′, cusànn′l′ ngiustamint′.

[Ulla]

Castello di Lombardia (castle of Lombardy), Enna

http://www.sicilia5stelle.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Castello-di-Lombardia-Enna-3.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/87932/22_-_castello_di_lombardia.jpg

[Ulla]

Lombardi di Corleone, mostra virtuale a cura della Biblioteca Universitaria di Pavia.

http://www.bibliotecauniversitariapavia.it/biblioteca/mostre_virtuali/lombardi_a_corleone/

http://www.bibliotecauniversitariapavia.it/biblioteca/mostre_virtuali/lombardi_a_corleone/img/img_da_slide_piccole/coordinate_1_grande.png

[Tiberio]

Castle of Sperlinga.

http://s12.postimg.org/q3k7ipb7x/sperlinga_panoramica_castello_borgo_rupestre_cda.j pg (http://postimage.org/)

[Tiberio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-K9tkpCUdo