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VladCa
05-22-2013, 04:00 PM
..

YeshAtid
05-22-2013, 04:02 PM
IMO the one with the most non white immigrants so therefore my own country Britain

SKYNET
05-22-2013, 04:07 PM
is this thread waiting to be solved? :p

VladCa
05-22-2013, 04:08 PM
is this thread waiting to be solved? :p
umm ... not quite ... just vote please .... that is, if you have any opinion on the subject.

Ivan Kramskoï
05-22-2013, 04:10 PM
IMO the one with the most non white immigrants so therefore my own country Britain
I think france has more non white than the uk

SKYNET
05-22-2013, 04:13 PM
umm ... not quite ... just vote please .... that is, if you have any opinion on the subject.

where is the multichoice option?



Which is the worst country in the European Union ?

most of the southern and eastern countries

VladCa
05-22-2013, 04:15 PM
where is the multichoice option?




most of the southern and eastern countries
Well I have asked "which is the worst country" not "which are the worst countries" so just pick one ... the worst in your opinion ...

VladCa
05-22-2013, 04:18 PM
Wow ... whoever picked France should live in the East ...

Baluarte
05-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Under what criteria?

Economics/security is Romania/Bulgaria

Societal-wise: Sweden

Politically and historically: UK/Netherlands.

VladCa
05-22-2013, 04:25 PM
Under what criteria?

Economics/security is Romania/Bulgaria

Societal-wise: Sweden

Politically and historically: UK/Netherlands.
Well I think the best criteria would be quality of life .... maybe the Dutch do not have a great history, but I am sure that a Dutch would not prefer to live in Romania. And, for example, a Bulgarian would crawl all the way from Bulgaria to The Netherlands just to live there ...

So, quality of life in general ...

SKYNET
05-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Well I have asked "which is the worst country" not "which are the worst countries" so just pick one ... the worst in your opinion ...

Economics or what?
Hungary is not okay
Greece is not okay
Romania is not okay
to be continued
that's what I meant

Virtuous
05-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Belgium, the heart of politically correct EU.

VladCa
05-22-2013, 04:30 PM
Economics or what?
Hungary is not okay
Greece is not okay
Romania is not okay
to be continued
that's what I meant
I was referring to quality of life in general ... like "in which country would you rather not live for the rest of your life?" ... of course there would be allot more than just one ... but there must be a "worst one".

American_Hispanist
05-22-2013, 04:32 PM
such a vague thread..... at best..... :lol:

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 04:35 PM
Republic of San Marino...damn'd romagnans piadina-eaters...

Virtuous
05-22-2013, 04:36 PM
Republic of San Marino...damn'd romagnans piadina-eaters...

Poor San Marino, we should give them some points in Eurovision. Neighbour fratellanza :laugh:

YeshAtid
05-22-2013, 04:37 PM
I think france has more non white than the uk

Although france is more caucasian

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Poor San Marino, we should give them some points in Eurovision. Neighbour fratellanza :laugh:

At least the sanmariners make very good piadinas

http://blog.giallozafferano.it/cucinaplus/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/piadina-recheada.jpg

Szegedist
05-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Most likely Hungary, due to politics, arguments with Brussels, Merkelstan and so on..

Leliana
05-22-2013, 04:40 PM
Belgium.

American_Hispanist
05-22-2013, 04:41 PM
No 'Bosnia' and 'Albania' as poll option, meh.

Do you know how to read dumkolf, it's about countries in the EU, and Bosnia and Albania aren't in the EU.

And yes, I called you a moron, what are you going to do about it. :)

WOOHP
05-22-2013, 04:41 PM
In terms of HDI:

Southeasterneurope followed by
Northeasterneurope, close with Southwesterneurope.

(Easterneurope: All countries east of Germany)

In terms of economy its for sure Greece and Spain in the EMU.

blabla
05-22-2013, 04:43 PM
Romania and Bulgaria.

Terror Terror
05-22-2013, 04:44 PM
The poor ones in the east. And France and UK because of the race mixing going on over there.

Alenka
05-22-2013, 04:45 PM
Slovenistan

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 04:47 PM
In terms of HDI:

Southeasterneurope followed by
Northeasterneurope, close with Southwesterneurope.

(Easterneurope: All countries east of Germany)




In terms of economy its for sure Greece and Spain in the EMU.


Not at all

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

American_Hispanist
05-22-2013, 04:47 PM
Slovenistan

¿Por qué?

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 04:58 PM
Slovenistan

Nah, you've a lot of pussy...pardon, beautiful girls.

Maybe you liked in the past to throw venetians and forlans into some Timava's holes...but you're a nice pupulation, indeed.

WOOHP
05-22-2013, 05:27 PM
Not at all

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

HDI= Human Development Index.
33916

All Northwestern countries exept UK are ahead of the Southwest.
The Northeastern countries Slovakia, Czech, Estonia, Poland and Hungary are inbetween Italy and Portugal. But it's from 2009 so I guess Spain, Portugal and Greece with almost 25% unemployment rate have fallen down in the list.

Economic: I was wrong there. Northeast is still poorer(not for long) than southwest. But Northwest is undoubtedly the strongest, 7/10 richest country GDP/capita are northwestern. If you count in Australia, Canada and USA which are an extension of northwestern culture then 10/10 are countries of northwestern origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita (Don't bother the microstates)

YeshAtid
05-22-2013, 05:29 PM
Belgium.

Why?

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 05:30 PM
HDI= Human Development Index.
33916

All Northwestern countries exept UK are ahead of the Southwest.
The Northeastern countries Slovakia, Czech, Estonia, Poland and Hungary are inbetween Italy and Portugal. But it's from 2009 so I guess Spain, Portugal and Greece with almost 25% unemployment rate have fallen down in the list.

Economic: I was wrong there. Northeast is still poorer(not for long) than southwest. But Northwest is undoubtedly the strongest, 7/10 richest country GDP/capita are northwestern. If you count in Australia, Canada and USA which are an extension of northwestern culture then 10/10 are countries of northwestern origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita (Don't nother the microstates)

Unfortunately our south get down all the national media, since northern Italy is part of the Blue Banana, the economical core of Europe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Blue_Banana.svg/350px-Blue_Banana.svg.png

Btw lol @ greece, spain and portugal mode developed than us.

Gaijin
05-22-2013, 05:37 PM
Here's the statistics for 2011 on Health, Wealth, Education, Democracy, Peace and Environment.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7425/8782102633_c8663c5e0f_o.png

YeshAtid
05-22-2013, 05:38 PM
Romania does have sexy women

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAhHNCfA7NI

VladCa
05-22-2013, 05:55 PM
Romania does have sexy women

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAhHNCfA7NI

Yep ... beautiful but quite dumb ...

YeshAtid
05-22-2013, 05:56 PM
Yep ... beautiful but quite dumb ...

?

Baluarte
05-22-2013, 05:58 PM
Why?

Null girl thinks Belgium is the symbol of the EU (what about the ECB in Frankfurt?) and calls it a fake country, in spite of the revolt they had against the Dutch.

Don't pay attention to her, unnecessary.

VladCa
05-22-2013, 06:08 PM
?

Not necessarily Alexandra Stan ... Romanian girls in general ... I live in Romania for 23 years now, so trust me on this one ...

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 06:11 PM
Not necessarily Alexandra Stan ... Romanian girls in general ... I live in Romania for 23 years now, so trust me on this one ...

I live in a city with 100,000 of your countrymen...and i agree with Barberis...your women are quite hot.

VladCa
05-22-2013, 06:17 PM
I live in a city with 100,000 of your countrymen...and i agree with Barberis...your women are quite hot.
Yeah ... but I'm pretty sure that those 100.000 countrymen of mine are not quite the best Romanians you can find (like all the Romanians who are in Italy), and I am also pretty sure that those girls you are talking about, are just hot ... and that's it ... and that doesn't bring pride to our country at all ... nothing does actually ...

Peyrol
05-22-2013, 06:19 PM
Yeah ... but I'm pretty sure that those 100.000 countrymen of mine are not quite the best Romanians you can find (like all the Romanians who are in Italy), and I am also pretty sure that those girls you are talking about, are just hot ... and that's it ...

It depends...ethnic romanians (and moldovans) are quite good people...obviously the zigani aren't, but they tecnically aren't ''romanian'' even if they like to be cosidered in that way (they're less than 15% of the ''romanians'' here, luckily).

Windischer
05-22-2013, 06:22 PM
the beacon of socialism in european union - france

Roy
05-22-2013, 06:23 PM
Belgium.

le penalty
05-22-2013, 09:39 PM
Not at all

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

Are french poorest western country :eek:

WOOHP
05-23-2013, 01:38 PM
Are french poorest western country :eek:

In that map you might get the idea, yes. But Paris Metropolitan region is the wealthiest metro-region in Europe. Paris is actually the worlds 5th richest city behind New York, Tokyo, Chicago and Los Angeles. So I guess Paris "covers up" the rest of France.

Baluarte
05-23-2013, 01:42 PM
Sorry, that map is crap.

Western France is one of the best places to live in Europe. Low pollution, low demographic concentration, soil fertility and the lowest immigration rates in the country.

Yet it's orange. On the meantime, London metro area is green. :rolleyes:


Shows to what point the money-grubbing indicators like GDP per capita are so flawed.

Windischer
05-23-2013, 02:59 PM
that map illustrates GDP per capita in regions, not "the best place to live". its quite normal that in , so its quite normal it doesnt taky anything else into consideration.

wvwvw
05-23-2013, 03:10 PM
I think we are worst, although Germany is even more.

ABest
05-23-2013, 03:16 PM
I think we are worst, although Germany is even more.

I don't think we are the worst, even though we are experiencing a great crisis and have a reputation of being corrupt lately. And I don't think that there is a "worst European country". Frankly, polls like these suck tbh.

Albion
05-23-2013, 03:19 PM
IMO the one with the most non white immigrants so therefore my own country Britain

You're probably an immigrant.


As for me, I vote for Romania since it wasn't suited to joining the EU in the first place and has a bad Roma problem.

kabeiros
05-23-2013, 03:21 PM
So I guess Paris "covers up" the rest of France. This is exactly what happens in Greece. Approximately 40% of the Greek population lives in that green area around Athens

wvwvw
05-23-2013, 03:25 PM
Greece is the most unstable country in the EU so it is by default the worst. Germany is also bad for the EU she is only interested in dominating the EU and creating the European States of Germany.

Albion
05-23-2013, 03:36 PM
Sorry, that map is crap.

Western France is one of the best places to live in Europe. Low pollution, low demographic concentration, soil fertility and the lowest immigration rates in the country.

Yet it's orange. On the meantime, London metro area is green. :rolleyes:


Shows to what point the money-grubbing indicators like GDP per capita are so flawed.

Yes, this is right. Cornwall, Wales and Northern England in the UK are poorer than the south, but the potential for a nicer life is there - less densely populated, less pollution, more open spaces and wild areas, slower pace of life, etc. Lack of money holds people back in these areas to degree (especially in urban areas), but property prices are usually cheaper to compensate and the shops aren't as overpriced as the South East.
GDP alone isn't a measure of how good somewhere is. People should look at New Zealand - poorer than much of Western Europe by GDP per capita yet one of the best qualities of life in the world and one of the nicest places to live.

American_Hispanist
05-23-2013, 03:39 PM
Yes, this is right. Cornwall, Wales and Northern England in the UK are poorer than the south, but the potential for a nicer life is there - less densely populated, less pollution, more open spaces and wild areas, slower pace of life, etc. Lack of money holds people back in these areas to degree (especially in urban areas), but property prices are usually cheaper to compensate and the shops aren't as overpriced as the South East.
GDP alone isn't a measure of how good somewhere is. People should look at New Zealand - poorer than much of Western Europe by GDP per capita yet one of the best qualities of life in the world and one of the nicest places to live.

I very much agree with that.

Graham
05-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Luxembourg, don't mean quality of life..

VladCa
05-23-2013, 04:35 PM
You're probably an immigrant.


As for me, I vote for Romania since it wasn't suited to joining the EU in the first place and has a bad Roma problem.

Please, call them gypsies, not roma. This way we will avoid any confusions.

Anyway, I totally agree with you. Romania was not ready to enter the EU. Neither was Bulgaria, even though, Bulgaria is gaining ground now. As for the gypsies problem, it was Great Britain's "fault" (and France's and Italy's "fault") because they were too kind with this type of immigrants (the social protection and everything). You don't see problems with gypsies in Sweden or Denmark.
But at least not only gypsies benefit from the EU; also some of the brighter minds of Romania, who wish to study in a decent country with proper learning conditions and where they are treated with respect and where you do not obtain good grades by bribing the teachers. Too bad that Romanian students still need the yellow card to work in the UK, but hey, who can blame the British ?

Infinte
05-23-2013, 04:40 PM
Poland.

Ultra
05-23-2013, 04:42 PM
Sweden ty.

Baluarte
05-23-2013, 04:44 PM
Sweden ty.

I'm tempted to agree on this at times.

VladCa
05-23-2013, 04:44 PM
Sweden ty.

?!

Dacul
05-23-2013, 05:16 PM
Well if you take HDI :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
Bulgaria worst,Romania,2nd worst.

Baluarte
05-23-2013, 05:18 PM
That's what I said at the beginning.

From a security (existance of mafia), and socio-economic point of view: Bulgaria and Romania are the worst.

The Illyrian Warrior
05-23-2013, 06:25 PM
I vote for ROMAnia but, IMO france for western country is more shittier than romania is at east.

Dacul
05-23-2013, 06:29 PM
Lol,Romania would be nasty,but at least we do not have a lot emigrants from Middle Eastern and Turkey here,to riot and make chaos on the streets of Bucharest,how is happening now in Stockholm.

Szegedist
05-23-2013, 06:37 PM
Lol,Romania would be nasty,but at least we do not have a lot emigrants from Middle Eastern and Turkey here,to riot and make chaos on the streets of Bucharest,how is happening now in Stockholm.

You have gypos to make up for it. Their birthrates compensate for lack of immigrants (after all who would want to move to Romania lol?)

morski
05-23-2013, 06:46 PM
That's what I said at the beginning.

From a security (existance of mafia), and socio-economic point of view: Bulgaria and Romania are the worst.

I feel rather safe on the streets of Sofia and Burgas in every hour day and night.

RussiaPrussia
05-23-2013, 06:46 PM
uk

Baluarte
05-23-2013, 07:01 PM
I feel rather safe on the streets of Sofia and Burgas in every hour day and night.

Can't judge from the terrain, so I can only comment for what I read or what people comment on statistics.
That's all :)

The Illyrian Warrior
05-23-2013, 07:38 PM
Who voted Germany?!!! :icon_lol:
Its like voting EU as worst place to live, if you know what i mean ;)

Baluarte
05-23-2013, 07:41 PM
Who voted Germany?!!! :icon_lol:
Its like voting EU as worst place to live, if you know what i mean ;)

I'm sorry, where your Teutonic idols smeared by that vote?

Hevo
05-23-2013, 07:44 PM
Who voted for The Netherlands?

Dacul
05-23-2013, 07:45 PM
Lol,why people here voted Greece?
Greece still has 29th HDI,is tens of years,if not more,in front of Romania.
There are other nasty things,about Romania,compared to Greece,which I will not tell here,to not be told I am not real citizen of Romania.

Trun
05-23-2013, 07:46 PM
And, for example, a Gypsy would crawl all the way from Bulgaria to The Netherlands just to live there ...

Fixed.

Oh, and I expected you mothafackaz to vote for Bulgaria. Since you didn't, now my right hand is partying under the keyboard.

kabeiros
05-23-2013, 09:51 PM
Lol,why people here voted Greece? Not surprising at all, this place is full of Alboz and Turks

VladCa
05-24-2013, 01:52 PM
Who voted for The Netherlands?

That really is a shocker ...

Wolf
05-25-2013, 02:08 PM
Germany is also bad for the EU she is only interested in dominating the EU and creating the European States of Germany.

That's ridicolous, Germany is getting plundered by the EU!

Don Arb
05-25-2013, 02:15 PM
Not surprising at all, this place is full of Alboz and Turks

Damn alboz and turks, don't they understand that Greece is the best in EU no corruption and crisis at all.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 02:29 PM
That's ridicolous, Germany is getting plundered by the EU!

The German people maybe, the German banks and their ruling elite no.

The making of a German Europe:
http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/acb98262-99c4-4e9b-9bdb-4e81c4e9f90a.img

Wolf
05-25-2013, 02:54 PM
The making of a German Europe:
http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/acb98262-99c4-4e9b-9bdb-4e81c4e9f90a.img

The evil Germans sitting on their unearned money, and if they're forced to give it away they even dare to impose conditions.

denz
05-25-2013, 02:59 PM
The evil Germans sitting on their unearned money, and if they're forced to give it away they even dare to impose conditions.

Give those money and get back to work to earn more, they have to increase their GDP, increase wealth, blame on you :rolleyes:

Infinte
05-25-2013, 03:06 PM
Never really liked Greece, with it's lazy people, exploiting the EU progressively.

Windischer
05-25-2013, 03:11 PM
nobody forced countries to get loans from german banks to finance their socialist policies.
socialist parties use socialist policies to basically bribe voters into electing them.
voters are stupid enough to buy into that and keep voting for socialists.
and when the debt needs to be paid back, voters complain that banks are "teh evul ppl"? :D

if you get a loan and are unable to pay it back, its not fault of your creditor, but solely and only your fault.

and the absurd thing: taxpayers of slovakia pay taxes to the slovak state, which was forced (again by EUsocialists, who else) to involuntarily use taxpayer money to back up for debts of crisis-stricken countries. and when tourists from slovakia came to such a crisis-stricken country, they were chastised and refused to serve in a restaurant because slovakia was, at first, reluctant to help them pay for their debts voluntarily and had to be forced to do so.
greece.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 03:22 PM
Never really liked Greece, with it's lazy people, exploiting the EU progressively.

Who cares what you think gypsy, it's not as if you have a clue about *anything*

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 03:41 PM
The evil Germans sitting on their unearned money, and if they're forced to give it away they even dare to impose conditions.

I never said Germany was evil, you did. It is agreed by everyone that Germany has benefited from the Euro more than any other country. Before the introduction of the Euro, Germany even run deficits, it was thanks to the Euro that she was able to run huge surpluses.


Even if Germany had to write off the loans it extended to Southern European countries as part of the eurozone’s emergency rescue measures, the economic advantages of its membership would still be overwhelming, according to a recent study by the Bertelsmann Stiftung.
http://www.euractiv.com/euro-finance/despite-costly-bailouts-germany-news-519507

The conditions that Germany imposed on Greece have no precedent in any country and are MUCH harsher than those imposed on Portugal or Spain, Greece has been used as the guinea pig for the rest.

"American philosopher Noam Chomsky has accused Germany of imposing economic slavery on Greece, with the ultimate goal of snatching Greece's resources."

Windischer
05-25-2013, 03:54 PM
so benefitting from euro is a bad thing or sign of conspiracy? :D plain envy. germany has benefitted from euro because german politicians arent that dumb and because germanys economy is productive.
what resources does greece have? ouzo?
its the greeks who are nicknamed as gypsies in my country.

>>>> noam chomsky :laugh: :laugh: the "authority"

VladCa
05-25-2013, 03:57 PM
Who cares what you think gypsy, it's not as if you have a clue about *anything*

Look who's talking. What do you know about Europe ? I have worked one summer in Greece and the Greeks are indeed lazy. Besides, they are paid big money for little work. Also, the ones who live on the islands, work 6 months, and 6 months stay and receive unemployment allowance which is pretty high for an allowance. Many years they got allot of money for doing nothing or too little, now they have to pay for that. And, unfortunately, the other EU members have to pay for the Greeks mistakes also.

Wolf
05-25-2013, 04:19 PM
It is agreed by everyone that Germany has benefited from the Euro more than any other country.

And how? After the introduction of the Euro, Germany suffered from low GDP growth rates and high unemployment until 2005. It is largely accepted that wage restraints, labour market reforms and a better global economy helped to improve Germany's competitiveness.



Before the introduction of the Euro, Germany even run deficits, it was thanks to the Euro that she was able to run huge surpluses.

:picard1:



"American philosopher Noam Chomsky has accused Germany of imposing economic slavery on Greece, with the ultimate goal of snatching Greece's resources."

Fortunately, Chomsky is no economist, because if was one I would doubt his state of mind.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 04:30 PM
so benefitting from euro is a bad thing or sign of conspiracy? :D plain envy. germany has benefitted from euro because german politicians arent that dumb and because germanys economy is productive.
what resources does greece have? ouzo?
its the greeks who are nicknamed as gypsies in my country.

>>>> noam chomsky :laugh: :laugh: the "authority"

It is a bit boring having to reply to uneducated retards with zero knowledge of economics but..anyway.

Benefiting from the Euro is not a bad thing, but it becomes a bad thing when you benefit at the expense of the rest. Ever since Germany joined the Eurozone it began exporting more and more into southern Europe, creating huge surpluses it never had before. (For the same reason the USA is running huge trade deficits with China).

What China and Germany have in common is that they both trade with a significantly undervalued currency. The creation of the euro fixed relative exchange rates across member countries but, Germany entered with a significant undervalued currency, whereas Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain, entered at a high (fixed) rate. As a result German exports became very cheap for southern Europe...that in turn changed the trade balance in favor of Germany. It begun to run huge surplus in its budget at the expence of the south. Germany recycled these surpluses as cheap credit for Greece, Spain etc, so that they could continue to carry on purchasing German exports. That created a bubble. It burst when crisis hit USA (Lehman brother's) crisis.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 04:43 PM
And how? After the introduction of the Euro, Germany suffered from low GDP growth rates and high unemployment until 2005. It is largely accepted that wage restraints, labour market reforms and a better global economy helped to improve Germany's competitiveness.

Wage restraints may have helped Germany's competiveness, but it was also one of the main contributing factors to the crisis

Pettis: Excess German Savings, not Thrift, Caused the European Crisis
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/05/excess-german-savings-not-thrift-caused-the-european-crisis.html#92Wr8z4VEoWqT0Ej.99

Germany’s low wages caused euro crisis, says report
BERLIN, Germany — Germany may be the country contributing most to the euro-zone bailouts, but it may well be paying for a problem of its own making.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/germany/120124/germany-s-low-wages-caused-euro-crisis-says-report

Peripheral Europe’s Debt and German Wages. The Role of Wage Policy in the Euro Area
Engelbert Stockhammer

Greek crisis as resulting from a lack of fiscal discipline. The paper argues that this is wrong analysis and leads to wrong policy conclusions. The Greek debt crisis (as well as those of other Southern European countries and Ireland) has to be seen in macroeconomic context.

Germany has pursued a policy of aggressive wage restraint resulting in large current account surpluses. German gains in competitiveness (since the introduction of the Euro) have not been founded on superior technological performance, but on more effective wage suppression. Germany's current account surpluses are some other countries’ current account deficits (and capital inflows). In other words, in some countries some economic sectors have to increase their obligations to Germany: in Greece that was primarily the public sector, whereas in Spain it was the household sector.
Simply put, German wage suppression rather than fiscal profligacy is at root of the crisis of the Euro system
http://www.dipecodir.it/upload/file/Simonazzi/economia%20italiana%20ed%20eur/stockhammer_lezione.doc

Windischer
05-25-2013, 04:58 PM
your knowledge of economics certainly isnt non-zero... you forgot to implement basic principles, known since...times immemorial to us, uneducated retards.

yes, german private companies were exporting. why were they exporting? because they produced something. where were they exporting? into countries where people would purchase.
who forced the people to purchase imported german goods? nobody, they did so willingly. i dont buy imported goods if there is a local alternative with the same or better quality.

and now tell me, an uneducated retard, what does that have to do with greek state debt? state debt isnt accumulated by private spending but by public spending, i. e. imbalance in state budget on the expenses side. the reason behind high state spending of greece were socialist policies, welfare state; and to finance it they got loans from banks. the money they got didnt belong to banks but to banks creditors, that is, people and businesses who deposit their money in banks.
in case of german banks it were german depositors.

edit: fuk whats wrong with wage suppression? its a normal competitiveness tool. so yea germany should lower its ability to compete so that poor southern gypsies can get a piece of cake, too. youre mad?

edit2: yes, lack of fiscal discipline. unsustainable welfare state is a sign of low fiscal discipline.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 05:29 PM
who forced the people to purchase imported german goods?

Who forced German banks to loan like crazy to the south?

Let’s begin with the observation that irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. Germany’s banks were Greece’s enablers. Thanks partly to lax regulation, German banks built up precarious exposures to Europe’s peripheral countries in the years before the crisis. By December 2009, according to the Bank for International Settlements, German banks had amassed claims of $704 billion on Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain, much more than the German banks’ aggregate capital. In other words, they lent more than they could afford.

When the European Union and the European Central Bank stepped in to bail out the struggling countries, they made it possible for German banks to bring their money home. As a result, they bailed out Germany’s banks as well as the taxpayers who might otherwise have had to support those banks if the loans weren’t repaid. Unlike much of the aid provided to Greece, the support to Germany’s banks happened automatically, as a function of the currency union’s structure.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-23/merkel-should-know-her-country-has-been-bailed-out-too.html

After years of higher interest rates and large deficits, the eurozone’s south had managed to decrease the interest rate differential with the north. However, the differential was still there; especially for personal and credit cards loans where it was huge. Thus, German capital (produced by the German's hard, cheap labour and directed by the irresponsible German bankers) flowed south in search of higher returns. What happens when money floods in unexpectedly? Bubbles form. It is that simple. In Spain they took the form of real estate bubbles. In Greece the bubbles manifested themselves in the form of public debt, as the Greek developers found it easier to grab the German capital flows via the accounts of the state, whose administrators were only too keen to shower the Greeks with procurement contracts.

The precise form of the southern bubbles does not matter. They would burst asunder anyway, once the massively larger bubbles created by our transatlantic bankers (Wall Street) popped. What does matter is that the Germans could see that their hard work was not translating into a better life but into more drudgery and less purchasing power.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 05:41 PM
the reason behind high state spending of greece were socialist policies, welfare state;

It is a myth that Greece's overspending caused the crisis.

Greece spend less on its public sector, as a share of GDP, than the EU average.

Greece’s location in the middle of the pack on spending is not some artifact of the massive recession. Over the past 10 years, Greece has consistently spent less, as a share of GDP, than the European Union as a whole. During the last economic cycle, from 2001 to 2007, Greek government expenditures totaled an annual average of 44.6 percent of GDP. Over the same period, the European Union as a whole spent an annual average of 46.6 percent of GDP. Germany, for example, spent an average of 46.7 percent of GDP over this period. Indeed, from 2001 to 2007, Greek average annual spending ranked precisely in the center of all EU countries, with 13 countries spending more, and 13 countries spending less.

Fundamentally, the argument that the Greeks spent lavishly and licentiously ignores the simple fact that Greek spending is and has been boringly average for EU countries. There are many other European countries that spend far more than Greece does but do not find themselves facing a fiscal crisis.

http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2010/05/img/greece_graph1.bmp

Greek public pensions accounted for roughly 11% of GDP, around the same as Germany and France.
Public and private pension expenditure
As a percentage of GDP, 2005

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2010-en/images/graphics/10-02-03-g1.gif
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2010-en/10/02/03/10-02-03-g1.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2010-77-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

Windischer
05-25-2013, 05:54 PM
of course nobody forced lenders to lend. as much as nobody forces shopkeeper to sell me anything.
how relevant is this? how relevant is motivation of lender? its irrelevant. your argumentation is invalid, because:

the debitor is obliged to pay the loan + interest (=a price for the loan) to the creditor.

no matter what is their motivation.

banks are largely getting their money back. shouldnt they? for them it doesnt matter who pays back (in this case taxpayers of responsible eurozone countries, as eurozone countries took over (some willingly, some were forced) the greek obligation towards banks).
dont forget that this doesnt mean amortization of the debt. the greek bailout is still a loan and greece is still obliged (or should be... according to law.) to pay it back. the problem has been just postponed, costing my country (and german taxpayers, too) huge money. a socialistic "solution".

Windischer
05-25-2013, 06:07 PM
what else can increase debt as much as high budget deficits? what else can cause high budget deficits, than overspending in relation to lower income, i. e. lack of fiscal discipline?
its called "living beyond one's means"


and when information about falsified greek statistics becomes public...

Baluarte
05-25-2013, 06:14 PM
Countries can no longer finance themselves without resorting to debt. Eventually there is simply not enough money to pay the mounting interests.

States can either revolt against the debt slavery, or continue submitting to it.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 06:16 PM
When you make a risk investment you are taking a risk. The very same bankers that loaned to Greece were the ones that downgraded Greece's ratings on the markets. It is true, no Greek was forced to take loans from German banks. Just like no American was forced to take on subprime mortgages. However, when you actively encourage people to take loans from you, you bare at least 50% of the responsibility. Both the lender and the borrower must take the hit. So far only the Greek taxpayer has taken the hit who had little to do with the crisis.

When the global capitalist crisis hit in 2007, Greece like most other countries boosted its deficit finance. It had already been running high government deficits largely based on very rosy predictions of Greece's economic prospects given its low (for Europe) wages and rising productivity in the years before 2007. So Greece has borrowed a lot although other countries who borrowed more and for similar reasons.

Sure, There's Greece... But What About Spain?

Let's, for argument's sake, concede that we Greeks are spendthrift, lazy, corrupt, deficit-prone usurpers of other Europeans' hard labor. But what of the Spaniards?

Did the Spanish government not have a budget surplus before the Crisis erupted?
Was Spanish public debt not lower than Germany's before the Crisis erupted?
Was Spain not the one country which, quite remarkably, managed to stage an Olympic Games that (a) was profitable and (b) left behind it splendid facilities and urban renewal (as opposed to debts and white elephants)?
Did Spain not develop firms (like Zara) which showed Europe that it is possible to compete head-on with the Far East in sectors that the rest of Europe had exported there (at least in terms of jobs and labour intensity)?
Was Spain not the locus of German heavy industrial production (e.g. Volkswagen's Seat) that produced healthy German profits?
And yet, this very country is finding itself in the same black hole into which Greece fell two years ago. How might this be possible if, as conventional wisdom insists, the Crisis is due to Greek-style profligacy?

Even the most cursory look at what is happening to Spain today will convince the open-minded person that there is something deeply wrong with the conventional view of a 'rational' core - one that insists on rational economic prescriptions, and a faulty periphery, which is trying to shirk its responsibilities.

Since last summer, the losses of the Spanish banks (caused by ridiculous bets on real estate financed mostly by German banks) had been unloaded on the shoulders of the Spanish state, the result being that the latter was, effectively, shut out of the money markets (courtesy of interest rates exceeding 5 percent). So as to avoid declaring that Spain had formally joined the ranks of Greece, Ireland, and Portugal as the fourth 'fallen sovereign,' Europe's powers-that-be came up with the following brilliant idea:

The ECB will be accepting any piece of paper presented to it by Spain's banks as 'collateral' for massive loans provided at 1 percent interest rate.
But since no matter how may loans one gives to the insolvent, the insolvency does not go away -- Spanish banks were simply buying time in this manner. For this reason, Europe deemed it appropriate that the Spanish state should borrow more money at interest rates ranging between 4 and 5 percent (possibly from the EFSF, Europe's bailout fund) to hand over to the banks in the form of 'recapitalization.'
But since the Spanish state is, as a result of the new borrowing, pushed further into the bosom of insolvency, something had to be done so as to allow it to refinance itself. This is what they decided upon: The same (insolvent) banks receiving capital from the state should lend the state (at 6 percent interest) part of the loans they are receiving from the ECB (at 1 percent interest).

Do you, grasp what is going down here? Banks bankrupted by their own idiocy transferred their losses to a state that was, up until then, managing to report a budget surplus. This the state, and the taxpayers, folded into a long term insolvency. Then these same banks secured dirt cheap ECB loans which they lent, partly, to the state they bankrupted at huge interest rates while, at the same time, collecting from them... capital. And to allow for this 'solution' to Spain's difficulties, Europe imposed upon Spain swinging austerity that undercuts the national income from which the state must raise the taxes that will repay all these loans it was forced to shoulder.[/quote]

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 06:30 PM
what else can increase debt as much as high budget deficits? what else can cause high budget deficits, than overspending in relation to lower income, i. e. lack of fiscal discipline?
its called "living beyond one's means"...

An undervalued German currency? That way Germany sells far more to us than we sell to them. If Germany were to revert back to the mark then her exports would be much more expensive and may not have the financial muscle to pay its own debts back.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?76327-Germany%92s-continued-dependence-on-the-Eurozone%92s-stragglers

China's undervalued currency is too one of the main reasons for USA's huge trade deficit with China:

In 2012, the U.S. trade deficit with China was $315 billion. This was up significantly from the year before, when the trade deficit was $295.4 billion. Both were higher than any prior year.

The trade deficit exists despite the fact that U.S. exports to China were the highest in history. In 2012, the U.S. exported $110.6 billion in goods, an all-time record. Exports in 2011 were only $103.9 billion. However, imports from China also set a record -- $425.6 billion, more than the $399.3 billion imported in 2011.

A reason for that is that China's currency is partially set to be always priced lower than the dollar.

China sets the value of its currency, the yuan, to always equal a set amount of a basket of currencies which includes the dollar. In other words, China pegs its currency to the dollar using a fixed exchange rate. When the dollar loses value, China buys dollars through U.S. Treasuries to support it. In this way, the yuan's value is always within its targeted range. As long as the yuan's value is lower than the dollar, China's goods are cheaper in comparison.

In 2009, former Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner continued the U.S.-China Strategic Economic Dialogue, which pressures China to loosen its peg against the dollar and raise the price of Chinese exports, lowering the trade deficit. The Dialogue also opens up to U.S. companies China's domestic market. This was begun in 2006, by former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. Since the Dialogue was begun, China has allowed the yuan to rise 16% and opened many Chinese markets to U.S. industries. (Source: Foreign Affairs, A Strategic Economic Engagement, Sept/Oct 2008) (Article updated March 26, 2013)

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 06:44 PM
China 'fully prepared' for currency war
China is "fully prepared" for a currency war, according to a top central banking official speaking in Beijing.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02485/yen_2485269b.jpg

A currency war occurs when a number of major economies compete against each other to devalue their own currency and lower the exchange rate. This cuts the price of exports from the country and makes imports more expensive – effectively boosting jobs as demand from both domestic and foreign markets increases.

In the Great Depression of the 1930s, currency wars became common, with nations effectively competing to export unemployment. However, global trade declined sharply as fluctuating exchange rates harmed international traders, hurting all economies.
Fears of a currency war were sparked last month when Japan’s new prime minister Shinzo Abe made it clear he is determined to force down the yen to boost exports.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9904512/China-fully-prepared-for-currency-war.html

Windischer
05-25-2013, 06:55 PM
Both the lender and the borrower must take the hit.

no. you are confusing business risk and legal responsibility. the debitor, if unable to pay back, always must do everything (like selling his property) to repay as much as possible. and in certain cases the debitor can be also charged for fraud. only then, if 100% debt solution is not possible, creditor bears economic consequences of the risk. but that doesnt abolish debitors legal obligation at all.. what happens to creditor then is not relevant, that is completely different situation.

this is standard legal coverage for obligations. in our case, greece has been borrowed time, as 3rd party took over part of greeces debt. but the obligation is still there. and will be, until EUsocialists pull off another legal and economic prank for taxpayer money. if people keep voting for socialists, we may yet see things noone has ever seen.

saying that creditor is partially responsible (to whom? himself?) for debitors inability to solve the obligation is analogous to saying that victim of rape is partially responsible for being raped.

Queen B
05-25-2013, 06:58 PM
Damn alboz and turks, don't they understand that Greece is the best in EU no corruption and crisis at all.
Νο matter the corruption and crisis, Greece is still a good country to live.

Arbërori
05-25-2013, 06:59 PM
Νο matter the corruption and crisis, Greece is still a good country to live.

I would love to live in Greece. I bet I would feel just like at home, the cuisine and women are amazing aswell.

Infinte
05-25-2013, 07:01 PM
Look who's talking. What do you know about Europe ? I have worked one summer in Greece and the Greeks are indeed lazy. Besides, they are paid big money for little work. Also, the ones who live on the islands, work 6 months, and 6 months stay and receive unemployment allowance which is pretty high for an allowance. Many years they got allot of money for doing nothing or too little, now they have to pay for that. And, unfortunately, the other EU members have to pay for the Greeks mistakes also.


Finally, a correct statement.
We've had enough of paying for Greece's laziness.

Windischer
05-25-2013, 07:04 PM
An undervalued German currency? That way Germany sells far more to us than we sell to them.

a seller sells:
- only as much as he can offer
- only as much as buyers buy. it doesnt work both directions, because buyer is limited by his buying power and willingness to buy.

of course greece doesnt export as much to germany, because greece doesnt produce as much. its economy is unproductive.

dont want german imports? dont buy them. support local economy. an importer will not import goods that do not sell.

blaming everyone else around for one's failures doesnt solve anything.

wvwvw
05-25-2013, 07:20 PM
blaming everyone else around for one's failures doesnt solve anything.

Rather it is you who are blaming everything on Greece.

Baluarte
05-25-2013, 07:25 PM
German fanboyism.

Pontios
05-25-2013, 07:27 PM
Greece, because we have the dumbest citizens in the entire European continent and we vote for the same traitors that ruin our country and follow what other countries tell them and have them as an example for us. Furthermore, when we are suffering, we still believe in our country, and our government... And even furthermore we are bigger idiots for joining the EU when we didn't need them but they needed us. And then when we suffer for years now, we still have the same people in our government that ruined our country and brought us to shame, and we still haven't revolted.... :picard1:

Dacul
05-25-2013, 07:39 PM
Νο matter the corruption and crisis, Greece is still a good country to live.

I have seen most Greeks are very mild and educated people,think Greece is far from being worse country from Europe.

Windischer
05-25-2013, 07:42 PM
Rather it is you who are blaming everything on Greece.

what everything? everyone is responsible for his own failures. greece isnt an exception.

Queen B
05-25-2013, 08:21 PM
I have seen most Greeks are very mild and educated people,think Greece is far from being worse country from Europe.
Exactly. Plus, its not that bad to live, especially compared to other countries.
Yeah, its not heaven, neither you won't economically strugle, but still, its nice.

Wolf
05-25-2013, 09:21 PM
I've found an interesting video which should answer some questions related to the euro crisis:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDATVF7tTFY

More information you can find here: http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome.html

The Illyrian Warrior
05-25-2013, 09:57 PM
It is a myth that Greece's overspending caused the crisis.

Greece spend less on its public sector, as a share of GDP, than the EU average.

Greece’s location in the middle of the pack on spending is not some artifact of the massive recession. Over the past 10 years, Greece has consistently spent less, as a share of GDP, than the European Union as a whole. During the last economic cycle, from 2001 to 2007, Greek government expenditures totaled an annual average of 44.6 percent of GDP. Over the same period, the European Union as a whole spent an annual average of 46.6 percent of GDP. Germany, for example, spent an average of 46.7 percent of GDP over this period. Indeed, from 2001 to 2007, Greek average annual spending ranked precisely in the center of all EU countries, with 13 countries spending more, and 13 countries spending less.

Fundamentally, the argument that the Greeks spent lavishly and licentiously ignores the simple fact that Greek spending is and has been boringly average for EU countries. There are many other European countries that spend far more than Greece does but do not find themselves facing a fiscal crisis.

http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2010/05/img/greece_graph1.bmp

Greek public pensions accounted for roughly 11% of GDP, around the same as Germany and France.
Public and private pension expenditure
As a percentage of GDP, 2005

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2010-en/images/graphics/10-02-03-g1.gif
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2010-en/10/02/03/10-02-03-g1.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2010-77-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

You abused with statistics you idiot, even greek politicans admit it.

VladCa
05-29-2013, 06:29 PM
Can I delete a post ? (this is edited, I had posted something previously and wanted to delete it, but I can't see how)

Xárszászát
06-22-2013, 07:56 AM
You abused with statistics you idiot, even greek politicans admit it.

Geez, what an answer dude.
Be careful not to post too many facts in order to counter-argument him.

Ülev
01-19-2018, 05:45 PM
bump?

Cristiano viejo
01-20-2018, 03:12 PM
Germany, Romania and Bulgaria.

Hithaeglir
01-20-2018, 03:21 PM
Bulgaria and Romania..