A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live

[microrobert]

A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/05/atheism-map-1024x506.jpg (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/05/atheism-map.jpg)

Data source: WIN/Gallup International poll


Pope Francis’s pronouncement that God has “redeemed all of us … even the atheists” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/pope-francis-god-redeemed-everyone-not-just-catholics/2013/05/22/f90da324-c311-11e2-9642-a56177f1cdf7_story.html) Wednesday surprised both believers and nonbelievers around the world, who are used to stricter edicts from the Catholic church. It also got us wondering where the world’s atheists live.

There’s surprisingly little data available on the subject. But a 2012 poll by WIN/Gallup International (http://redcresearch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/RED-C-press-release-Religion-and-Atheism-25-7-12.pdf) — an international polling firm that is not associated with the D.C.-based Gallup group — asked more than 50,000 people in 40 countries whether they considered themselves “religious,” “not religious” or “convinced atheist.” Overall, the poll concluded that roughly 13 percent of global respondents identified as atheists, more than double the percentage in the U.S.

A surprising map of where the world?s atheists live (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/)

[member]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

[Baluarte]

Not surprised about Czech Republic being n1 in Europe.
Never met any European folk who care as little as they do about religion. And once again, the cult of laicism in France shows its ugly face again.

For the rest it's quite normal. East Asians have never been that much into religion and their spirituality is naturalist not trascendental.

[member]

I'm really suprised Poles are more atheist than Lithuanians. The difference must be small despite different colours.

[Insuperable]

Ireland and Sweden are surprising to me

[Wolf]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

I think this results from the fact that Japanese faith is syncretic.

[Baluarte]

I think this results from the fact that Japanese faith is syncretic.

Yes, I have a Japanese close friend, who is very into Shintoism, but still says he doesn't truly believe in "God" as we conceive it.
More a practical/inner peace aim for them.

[Szegedist]

Hungary would have been on par with France, maybe even Czech Republic if it was on there.

[Grumpy Cat]

I think Canada would be higher up. Most Canadians just don't have the balls to admit they're atheist. My family was for generations but I was still raised in the Catholic church, so I wouldn't be bullied in school (but I still was). My mother just told us it was all lies when we got home, and that the church was anti woman so don't listen to them. My sister is doing the same with her son. Several of my friends, their families were the same.

[Baluarte]

that's some teaching. Church is anti-woman :S

[The Lively Rock]

There we are, hehe, COME ON CANADA HIGHER ATHEIST PERCENTAGE ! :D

[Jackson]

Not surprised about Czech Republic being n1 in Europe.
Never met any European folk who care as little as they do about religion. And once again, the cult of laicism in France shows its ugly face again.

For the rest it's quite normal. East Asians have never been that much into religion and their spirituality is naturalist not trascendental.

Sensible people...

[Grumpy Cat]

that's some teaching. Church is anti-woman :S

That's what my mother believes. Yet she sits down everyday after supper and watches those Hollywood gossip shows, which are far more sexist than the church.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

I knew about czech republic but i stil find it quite odd ...

[RussiaPrussia]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

because they are more relaxed about religion

there is a saying in japan

You grew up as a shinto, youre marrying as a christian, you getting older as a budhist

or something like that

[RussiaPrussia]

actually russia would be sure on top if it werent for the muslim jihadist

[Virtuous]

The Catholic is strong in Malta.

[Trun]

I fail to believe there are higher percentage of atheists in Poland than in Bulgaria.

[member]

The Catholic is strong in Malta.

Would you like it to be more atheist?

Btw, do Malta's laws allow divorce?

[Mans not hot]

I'm really suprised Poles are more atheist than Lithuanians. The difference must be small despite different colours.
Because my country is bigger than urs, duh.

[Neanderthal]

I think Canada would be higher up. Most Canadians just don't have the balls to admit they're atheist. My family was for generations but I was still raised in the Catholic church, so I wouldn't be bullied in school (but I still was). My mother just told us it was all lies when we got home, and that the church was anti woman so don't listen to them. My sister is doing the same with her son. Several of my friends, their families were the same.

:icon_lol:

[member]

Because my country is bigger than urs, duh.

That's some extraordinary logic you're demonstrating.

[Mans not hot]

That's some extraordinary logic you're demonstrating.
Poland is a big country with large population number, so its quite obvious that there are more atheists in Poland than in Lithuania.

[Baluarte]

Map is ordered by %, not by absolute numbers

[lamb]

How did they manage to survey the atheists in Saudi Arabia?

[Hurrem sultana]

In Bosnia everyone believes in God but few follow him :s

[Neanderthal]

I think Canada would be higher up. Most Canadians just don't have the balls to admit they're atheist. My family was for generations but I was still raised in the Catholic church, so I wouldn't be bullied in school (but I still was). My mother just told us it was all lies when we got home, and that the church was anti woman so don't listen to them. My sister is doing the same with her son. Several of my friends, their families were the same.

I think your mom is quite wrong on what she says. If anything Catholic church is a very matriarchal religion, more so than any other. I even dare to say is a sect branched from the Christian faith dedicated to the Virgin Mary.

[Gospodine]

Not surprised with Australia's score.

It's not that Australians don't believe in religion; they don't believe in anything. Complete apathy across the board, but they especially lack conviction in politics. It's rapidly approaching a national religion based solely on Hedonism over here.

To give a fuck about anything to the pointing of protesting over it, becoming politically involved in it or just trying to educate others about it is seen as un-Australian.

[Baluarte]

Not surprised with Australia's score.

It's not that Australians don't believe in religion; they don't believe in anything. Complete apathy across the board, but they especially lack conviction in politics. It's rapidly approaching a national religion based solely on Hedonism over here.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglosphere
Only dark blue countries of course

Would you say it's the same in New Zealand?

[Gospodine]

Would you say it's the same in New Zealand?

To a slightly lesser degree (New Zealand is like a poorer, less economically successful but more autonomous and self-reliant Australia); primarily due to the fact that New Zealand has not experienced the degree of foreign economic investment and infiltration that Australia has and the fact that it is not a primary-producing nation (Australia's strong agricultural and mining base open the nation up to a lot of foreign capital penetration and with that foreign manipulation of Australian politics and business).

There's really no reason for most businesses/governments to bother with New Zealand if they can secure deals with Australia essentially; NZ has been left more to it's own devices and hence is a slightly less oppressive state.

Aussies are thoroughly apolitical and too pussy to stand up for important rights or issues, they are socially isolated from a lot of the world's problems and this makes them complacent and overly-tolerant towards bad politicians and power hungry leaders which are turning a formerly amazing country into a shithole.

There's no strong cultural spirit of fierce sovereignty and an emphasis on individual liberty versus the common good, like you have in the US.

People see displays of patriotism rooted in historical achievements or strong partisanship as laughable and/or "too American".

Which is funny because the Australian middle class (majority liberal/socialist-leaning) are whiny hypocrites who love to pontificate on how the rest of the country should live but would never apply any of the beliefs they hold to their own lives.

[Baluarte]

Ok, the it's confirmed. Nothing to expect in cultural nor political terms from any country of the Anglosphere.
Cheers.

[Gospodine]

Ok, the it's confirmed. Nothing to expect in cultural nor political terms from any country of the Anglosphere.
Cheers.

Not sure what you're implying with "cultural terms" there.

As for politics, I would agree with the exception of the US of course; which trumps all of Europe combined in actual grass-roots, organic resistance and opposition to the evils of Globalism/Anglo-Zionist-Imperialism/Economic Bondage to Central Banks/The Fake Left-Right Paradigm/Feminism/Multiculturalism/Reverse Racism/Socialism.

Europe has long since succumbed and forfeited to these said scourges of modern democracy. Nowhere in Europe do you see Ron Paul-like candidates being produced or states actually trying to secede from the Federalist Union.

Europeans are standing the face of Anglo-American Globalists with their dicks in their hands; the Americans are standing there armed with the knowledge of a nation built on opposing centralisation/globalisation (and living with the consequences of a failure to oppose it) and with the world's largest stockpile of privately-owned weapons.

Though I fear America's time will soon be up with the coming North American Union and eventual 2nd Civil War.

In any case... Europe (nor Australia) has nothing to offer on that front: true, self-serving governance built on independent free-will borne of fighting for God-given natural rights that nobody can take; only protect and enshrine in a constitution.

[Aunt Hilda]

this map feels insanely inaccurate.

[The Lawspeaker]

I just wonder how they polled the Middle East..

[askra]

that map doesn't look realistic.
How can 5-9% of Saudis be atheists? I think they would risk the penalty death, if they admitted to be irreligious.

[Methmatician]

that map doesn't look realistic.
How can 5-9% of Saudis be atheists? I think they would risk the penalty death, if they admitted to be irreligious.

I think you're allowed to be Atheist but you can't show it, bad mouth Islam, an try to convince others to join you.

[Virtuous]

Would you like it to be more atheist?

There are some close minded people because of Catholicism (usual ones you find), but I like to see it in this way: As long as Catholics are strong here, Islam will never dominate.


Btw, do Malta's laws allow divorce?

Yeah it is allowed ofc.

[member]

There are some close minded people because of Catholicism (usual ones you find), but I like to see it in this way: As long as Catholics are strong here, Islam will never dominate.



Yeah it is allowed ofc.

It is a recently established right:

The divorce referendum was held in Malta on 28 May 2011 to consult the electorate on the introduction of divorce, and resulted in a majority of the voters approving legalisation of divorce. At that time, Malta was one of only three countries in the world, along with the Philippines and the Vatican City,[1] in which divorce was not permitted.[2] As a consequence of the referendum outcome, a law allowing divorce under certain conditions was enacted in the same year.

How do did you guys live before that?

[morski]

No way are Bulgarians that religious.

[Lemon Kush]

No way are Bulgarians that religious.

I wish we were, but sadly religion is dying in Bulgaria

[safinator]

I wish we were, but sadly religion is dying in Bulgaria

Religion: Nordics are sissies lolz :rolleyes:

[Lemon Kush]

Religion: Nordics are sissies lolz :rolleyes:

And you believe the rest of my info too? LOL..

[member]

Here in Lithuania most people do not follow strict Catholism naturally. Actually other studies show that we actually practise religion less than Poles. Imo, a survey about actual practising would be more telling than that. Many people simply don't bother with questions "am I really religious or actually just an atheist?" In majority of cases Catholism is understood as something inherited. If your parents are Catholic and you celebrate Easter, Christmas, etc., then you are Catholic as well. Only some washed down Christian moral norms normally left. Think about divorce or arificial insemination for example (and our current moral norms are not a result of Catholism only).

I made a translation some time ago but didn't really post anywhere. I will do it now.
% of people who answered "never" to a question "would you justify..."

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/spectator000/Clipboard01g.jpg

[Lemon Kush]

Religion is important. It builds powerful countries.

[Aunt Hilda]

According to a 2005 Eurostat Eurobarometer poll, 52% of European Union citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 27% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 18% that "they do not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force". Results were widely varied between different countries, with 95% of Maltese respondents stating that they believe in God, on the one end, and only 16% of Estonians stating the same on the other. (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/300px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png
Percentages of people in European countries who said in 2005 that they "believe there is a God"


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Europe_No_Belief.png/300px-Europe_No_Belief.png
Percentages of people in European countries with no belief in a spirit, god, or life force (Eurobarometer 2005)





Country
believe in God %
belief in Life force %
atheist %


France
34
27
33


Czech Republic
19
50
30


Netherlands
34
37
27


Belgium
43
29
27


Estonia
16
54
26


Germany
47
25
25


Sweden
23
53
23


Luxembourg
44
28
22


United Kingdom
38
40
20


Denmark
31
49
19


Hungary
44
31
19


Spain
59
21
18


Norway
32
47
17


Slovenia
37
46
16


Finland
41
41
16


Bulgaria
40
40
13


Lithuania
49
36
12


Iceland
38
48
11


Slovakia
61
26
11


Latvia
37
49
10


Switzerland
48
39
9


Austria
54
34
8


Croatia
67
25
7


Italy
74
16
6


Ireland
73
22
4


Greece
81
16
3


Portugal
91
6
3


Cyprus
90
7
2


Poland
80
15
1


Romania
90
8
1


Turkey
90
2
1


Malta
95
3
1

[Baluarte]

Religion is important. It builds powerful countries.

Try to explain that to the mass of idiots that think dumbocracy, laicism and liberal-libertarianism is the way to go.

[Lemon Kush]

Try to explain that to the mass of idiots that think dumbocracy, laicism and liberal-libertarianism is the way to go.

It's not just the belief and worship, but the principles and mindset it instills.

[Windischer]

its a shame that some of the most corrupt countries are also among the most religious. or at least they declare so.

if there were really so many christians, those countries would be nearly paradise.

[Aunt Hilda]

its a shame that some of the most corrupt countries are also among the most religious. or at least they declare so.

if there were really so many christians, those countries would be nearly paradise.

the Church has always and will always be corrupt. The stronger it is in one country, the more corrupt that country will be.

[Windischer]

this isnt about church, but hypocrisy.
although, yes - church should be struggling against that. it does, but not enough.

and the worst thing comes when priests themselves steal, abuse, actively take part in wars, nationalistic and violent movements, or meddle in dirty politics...

[Lemon Kush]

the Church has always and will always be corrupt. The stronger it is in one country, the more corrupt that country will be.

The other countries are just as corrupt, they're just better at concealing it. I'm talking about the people and how nationalistic they are to their country. Religion correlates strongly with nationalism IMO.

[VladCa]

34017
Here is a more reliable source (wikipedia). This is just a map of European god believers. Shame on you Romania and bravo Czech Republic for having the most free thinkers in Europe.

[Baluarte]

Believing or not believing in God has nothing to do with being free.

Hardline secularists I've met are usually the most material-dependant, image-troubled people I've ever met.

[ABest]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

They are highly spiritual and incorporate religious aspects from Buddhism in their family-centric spiritual beliefs, but do not believe in a God, per se.

Basically, they believe in honoring the spirits of their ancestors, mostly, if I've understood it correctly.

[Zmey Gorynych]

34017
Here is a more reliable source (wikipedia). This is just a map of European god believers. Shame on you Romania and bravo Czech Republic for having the most free thinkers in Europe.
You're as much romanian as I'm norwegian. Since day one you've done nothing but slander Romania. I can understand self criticism but come on, you're pissing on your country's head on non-stop basis.

[Talvi]

They are highly spiritual and incorporate religious aspects from Buddhism in their family-centric spiritual beliefs, but do not believe in a God, per se.

Basically, they believe in honoring the spirits of their ancestors, mostly, if I've understood it correctly.

I dont think they are highly spiritual at all. Its more or less the same as atheists celebrating Christmas - just a tradition. Most things they do - they have no ideas why they do them, its just something youre supposed to do. (like visiting shrines/temples during certain times)

[morski]

The other countries are just as corrupt, they're just better at concealing it. I'm talking about the people and how nationalistic they are to their country. Religion correlates strongly with nationalism IMO.

In the ruins of Yugodslavia maybe... :D

[Graham]

A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/05/atheism-map-1024x506.jpg



Scotland is 53%
http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2013/scottish-social-attitudes-and-other-news/

Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, 2011

53% -- No religion
22% -- Church of Scotland
12% -- Roman Catholic
10% -- Other Christian
03% -- Non-Christian

[Lemon Kush]

In the ruins of Yugodslavia maybe... :D

You can't tell me that all of the countries that are religious aren't nationalistic as well. I think there's a connection..

[Windischer]

Slovakia:

62,0% - Roman Catholics
5,9% - Lutherans
3,8% - Byzantine Catholics
1,8% - Calvinists
0,9% - Orthodox
0,3% - Jehovah's Witnesses
0,2% - Evangelical Methodists
10,6% - Not specified
13,4% - No religion

+ the most religious regions in slovakia are the least nationalistic.

[SkyBurn]

The reason this map is "surprising" is because it's wrong.

[Gospodine]

the Church has always and will always be corrupt. The stronger it is in one country, the more corrupt that country will be.

Laying all the blame on religious institutions for the dismal predicament of Western governments is retarded.

We are the most corrupt nation-states on Earth; we, as in the Western World.
We have no religion for all intents and purposes.
People delude themselves into illusions of freedom and prosperity while in reality we live under an insane plutocracy where power-brokers and policy makers are happy to kill, extort, lie, cheat and prostitute themselves politically as long as it furthers their selfish aims.

There's nothing worse than a slave who thinks he's free. 3rd-world, sub-Saharan Africans see their fate for what it is; while we live in a manipulated reality of distraction.

Religion has been separated from nation-state's affairs for the last century or more in the Western world. It's fashionable and politically-correct to ridicule it; it's even legislatively marginalized in the US, UK, Australia and Canada. It's a concerted attempt at social engineering to remove man's fundamental aversion to other sources of authority than his own (which traditionally we derived justification for, from God; i.e. "God made us this way") which made the 20th century so damned difficult for control freaks like Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini.

Our current backwards political paradigms across Europe and the West are not rooted in religious corruption but corruption of all aspects of modern democracies and a consolidation of the world's strategic power into a very tiny elite.

Religion is an incredible barrier to political corruption in fact; because religious people pledge allegiance to a divine entity first, rather than their nation-state or flag.

This shields them from many destructive philosophies and social engineering attempts that we in the West have long-since succumbed to: the destruction of the nuclear family, forced multiculturalism/reverse racism, forced feminism/reverse sexism, all-pervading Socialism, environmental conservatism being valued over human life, a fake left-right paradigm, diffusion of responsibility and complete apathy that the Western, liberal middle-class gobble up with a spoon.

This is why the world's remaining religious states are being so vigorously attacked by Anglo-American globalists, e.g. Iran.They are, as ironic and contradictory as it may seem, the last bastion of isolationists and non-conformists while the rest of us are a bunch of sheep who can't see the the woods for the trees.

I'm tired of European attitudes towards religion. People can never find equilibrium on this issue. Either they want to remove every last trace of spirituality from the population or they want to live like Crusader Knights.

We need religion, but the right sort of religious foundation. The decline of our religious institutions is something that is well outside of the general public's hands, and has been backed by powerful interests for centuries because religion STOPS people from becoming subservient to man-made Idols.

Say what you like about Christianity but it's still preferable to anti-humanist sociopathy, which is where we are headed.

[Windischer]

first of all, a true christian doesnt murder, steal, bribe, lie etc.
there are very few such people in the world, though.

[Gospodine]

first of all, a true christian doesnt murder, steal, bribe, lie etc.
there are very few such people in the world, though.

If that's directed at me; no shit. That's my point. The decline of religious influence in our halls of power has a direct correlation with the decline of Western society as a whole.

[SkyBurn]

We need religion, but the right sort of religious foundation. The decline of our religious institutions is something that is well outside of the general public's hands, and has been backed by powerful interests for centuries because religion STOPS people from becoming subservient to man-made Idols.

Say what you like about Christianity but it's still preferable to anti-humanist sociopathy, which is where we are headed.

Your rant was quite paranoid.

We do not need religion. Religion has been a moral framework for long enough, but now it is simply a hindrance to humanism (rather than its saviour as you make out). I don't know how you think that religion stops subservience to man-made idols when that is exactly what religion is itself.

God is a man-made idol which requires the servitude of his followers. You've got it completely wrong.

[Lemon Kush]

Still no one has disproved me that the most nationalistic countries are indeed very religious

[Gospodine]

Your rant was quite paranoid.

And the belief that every religion is based solely on controlling the masses because religious leaders are giant puppeteers who cackle gleefully while their sheep bow before them is what?

:picard1:


We do not need religious.

Typical Australian. (See diagram in the OP)


Religion has been a moral framework for long enough,

What's the replacement?


but now it is simply a hindrance to humanism (rather than its saviour as you make out. I don't know how you think that religion stops subservience to man-made idols when that is exactly what religion is itself.

God is a man-made idol which requires the servitude of his followers. You've got it completely wrong.

The fundamental truth is that humans are herd animals and they need to follow a greater consciousness; Christianity in Europe and the West while having many flaws was a rather benign and effective moral servitude to guide us compared to the alternatives we have now.

I'm not a religious person and I don't know if I ever could be, all I know is that now we have a choice of lesser evils.

We would have never ever mobilised our combined intellectual and resourceful might as a species if it had not been for the driving influence of religion behind some of our most potent achievements (and not just Christianity either).

[Gospodine]

Still no one has disproved me that the most nationalistic countries are indeed very religious

Bullshit.

Take a look at your own background. Balkan nations embrace religion only as a defensive/protective measure against perceived existential threats to their nation/ethnic group (which they infinitely more loyal to). E.g. Serbs rallying around Christendom against the Turks, Albanians/Bosnians rallying around the Islamic World during times of crisis.

Most nationalistic states are not in-fact religious. A nationalistic country's attachment to religion is only as sturdy as the borders of that nation; the moment they change, people will drop their religion like a heavy bag of potatoes and jump ship onto the latest bandwagon, as long as it has strongest perceived following/support.

[SkyBurn]

And the belief that every religion is based solely on controlling the masses because religious leaders are giant puppeteers who cackle gleefully while their sheep bow before them is what?

:picard1:

Few people believe that. However, talking about basic democracy in Australia as plutocratic and evil comes off a little alarmist to me.


Typical Australian. (See diagram in the OP)

Na m8 I'm troo turanic :D


What's the replacement?

The law. We've been refining it for centuries, and we're getting close to humanistic ideals as time goes on.


The fundamental truth is that humans are herd animals and they need to follow a greater consciousness; Christianity in Europe and the West while having many flaws was a rather benign and effective moral servitude to guide us compared to the alternatives we have now.

Even if we take your herd animal premise, there are much better alternatives to religion than Christianity; Law and Government serve this. You may not like exactly how they're run, but trust me. A theocracy would be infinitely worse.


I'm not a religious person and I don't know if I ever could be, all I know is that now we have a choice of lesser evils.

We would have never ever mobilised our combined intellectual and resourceful might as a species if it had not been for the driving influence of religion behind some of our most potent achievements.

That can easily be turned back on you with the reminder how much religion hinders scientific development.

[Lemon Kush]

Bullshit.

Take a look at your own background. Balkan nations embrace religion only as a defensive/protective measure against perceived existential threats to their nation/ethnic group (which they infinitely more loyal to). E.g. Serbs rallying around Christendom against the Turks, Albanians/Bosnians rallying around the Islamic World during times of crisis.

Most nationalistic states are not in-fact religious. A nationalistic country's attachment to religion is only as sturdy as the borders of that nation; the moment they change, people will drop their religion like a heavy bag of potatoes and jump ship onto the latest bandwagon, as long as it has strongest perceived following/support.

People do many crazy things for their country in the name of religion.

[Gospodine]

The law. We've been refining it for centuries, and we're getting close to humanistic ideals as time goes on.

Guess where most of our Western common law derives from genius?

Laws only stop the weak; they do nothing to check the misuse and consolidation of power by the strong. Which what has also been happening for centuries.

You will never have a perfect set of laws as long as the people who create them can be switched around at a whim.

Religious scriptures largely build upon pre-existing "natural laws" that have dictated humanity's behaviour for millenia.
E.g. Someone tries to hurt you for no explicable reason; you hurt them back. If they die in the course of your self-defence; too bad. They relinquished any right to recourse by initiating hostilities.

We don't need an ivory-tower intellectual to teach us common fucking sense; maybe you do. I don't.


That can easily be turned back on you with the reminder how much religion hinders scientific development.

I actually feel it compliments it greatly.

There is a guiding non-scientific principle to the universe that is actually very easily detected if you follow Quantum Physics. (I'm not saying it's Yahweh, Allah, Buddha or whoever... I'm saying it's something that is not human and not matter; it's a transcendent order of things).

The Universe is a cycle that's been repeating for trillions of years and if you believe the multi-verse interpretation which a majority of the world's physicists do; then the real question you have to ask is how is everything so neatly and intelligently sulfa-sustaining and how has everything gone on uninterrupted for trillions of years without a hitch?
It's starts too look more and more like a conscious, living organism with an innate bias and an in-built defense mechanism against extinction rather than a collection of assorted gases, elements, and chaotic energies that just do their "thing" for all of eternity.

Something of this complexity, magnitude and sheer detail really beggars belief that it is willed into existence by the proximity of certain elements in certain spaces and that it came about because of freak coincidence or luck.

[Windischer]

People do many crazy things for their country in the name of religion.

while they often forget about God. thats sad.

[Lemon Kush]

Bullshit.

Take a look at your own background. Balkan nations embrace religion only as a defensive/protective measure against perceived existential threats to their nation/ethnic group (which they infinitely more loyal to). E.g. Serbs rallying around Christendom against the Turks, Albanians/Bosnians rallying around the Islamic World during times of crisis.

Most nationalistic states are not in-fact religious. A nationalistic country's attachment to religion is only as sturdy as the borders of that nation; the moment they change, people will drop their religion like a heavy bag of potatoes and jump ship onto the latest bandwagon, as long as it has strongest perceived following/support.

Look at America for a example. The founders of this nation had a strong national identity and yet still held on to the protestant principles the country was founded on.

[SkyBurn]

Guess where most of our Western common law derives from genius?

Firstly, lay off the agression.

Secondly, religious values are simply humanistic values which got tweaked and corrupted by ancient traditions and customs (which no longer apply).
Religion became law, and the law progresses by kicking out all those little corruptions on the theme which got introduced in biblical times.

Religion may have defined the law, but as religious morality is flawed, so is our Legal system. For now.


Laws only stop the weak; they do nothing to check the misuse and consolidation of power by the strong. Which what has also been happening for centuries.

And that will happen in every single political system with the exception of socialism.

You will never have a perfect set of laws as long as the people who create them can be switched around at a whim.

True, but we can still strive for something pretty close.


Religious scriptures largely build upon pre-existing "natural laws" that have dictated humanity's behaviour for millenia.
E.g. Someone tries to hurt you for no explicable reason; you hurt them back. If they die in the course of your self-defence; too bad. They relinquished any right to recourse by initiating hostilities.

As I said before, these are tribalistic variants of humanism. They've served as a stepping stone, but it's time to move on before we fall into the river.


We don't need an ivory-tower intellectual to teach us common fucking sense; maybe you do. I don't.

I'm not sure what I've said to necessitate your attitude, but I advise that you calm yourself.


I actually feel it compliments it greatly.

There is a guiding non-scientific principle to the universe that is actually very easily detected if you follow Quantum Physics. (I'm not saying it's Yahweh, Allah, Buddha or whoever... I'm saying it's something that is not human and not matter; it's a transcendent order of things).

The Universe is a cycle that's been repeating for trillions of years and if you believe the multi-verse interpretation which a majority of the world's physicists do; then the real question you have to ask is how is everything so neatly and intelligently sulfa-sustaining and how has everything gone on uninterrupted for trillions of years without a hitch?
It's starts too look more and more like a conscious, living organism with an innate bias and an in-built defense mechanism against extinction rather than a collection of assorted gases, elements, and chaotic energies that just do their "thing" for all of eternity.

Something of this complexity, magnitude and sheer detail really beggars belief that it is willed into existence by the proximity of certain elements in certain spaces and that it came about because of freak coincidence or luck.

Yes, the universe has many complexities and questions. However, the answer is not within a sky fairy and his absolute morality.

[Lemon Kush]

So strictly catholic countries like Spain and Portugal aren't nationalistic? What about strongly orthodox nations like Greece and Serbia? Or am I just hallucinating here?

[Gospodine]

Since I do consider you a reasonable and likeable guy SkyBurn, I'll just state for the record that I was a militant atheist just like you.

I've done a 180. I've realised that a lack of spirituality makes people susceptible to destructive influences; and it's a massive reason why Western society has declined so sharply ever since religion was taken out of law and schooling.

I mean you don't have to believe anything; but at the same time I sincerely doubt any atheist on this forum could give me a remotely plausible explanation of the Big Bang but they'll still believe in stuff they can never understand.
That's totally different from religion; isn't it?

Most religious people in actuality practice pseudo-Christianity, pseudo-Islam, pseudo-Judaism or a pseudo-religion rather than the real historical teachings of their prophets.

Like any written documents, the scriptures have been corrupted, misquoted, mistranslated and deliberately butchered by a wide array of powerful groups with control freak ambitions. The Council of Nicea, the Hadiths, Sabbatean Jews, etc.

Wahhabism for example, which is what Saudi Arabia markets to the rest of the world as "real Islam", was invented by British agents at the turn of WWI when the Ibn Saud dynasty were installed onto the throne by the British. This was done to sow the seeds of discord necessary for the Brits to have a monopoly on the oil fields which were then controlled by the Ottomans (Wahhabism Vs. the Caliphate) and to enable Israel to come into existence later (Wahhabism vs other Madhabs or schools of jurisprudence).

It's nothing new. Julius Caesar's "Divide and Conquer" mantra defined the end of British Empire.

This is just one example of the many, many ways that the Abrahamic faiths have been deliberated manipulated for social engineering purposes (primarily by Anglo-American interests).

They all had noble intentions and genuinely egalitarian mindsets; if people knew the true histories of their respective religions they would be fanatics overnight.

You have to accept your own mortality sooner or later and that means accepting a lack of control.

Faiths have never claimed to have all the answers; just a springboard for your own moral compass to go in the right direction.

There's no comfort or solice in the cold-hard realities of science, which is subject to be wrong at any time (which I do find fascinating btw). The premise that it's all a series of random distractions until you die, which is purely arithmetically-calculated probability and that we're an insignificance mass in an infinitesimally huge abyss offers no inspiration to man to actually reach our potential as a species.

It's mainly our egos that precludes people from religion these days, that they don't want to feel powerless and lacking control.

If I would label myself anything it would be a Humanist. I believe in some kind of strong uniting force to finally bring humanity into a harmonious balance with itself and see itself as a positively good force with unlimited potential.

I dislike everything and anything that attempts to transcend humanity or disconnect humans from their biologically-designed and programmed existence and disregards the thousands of years of evolution that have led to this pinnacle of humanity (if you could call it that).

That's why I never call myself "religious". Only spiritual.

True religion is spirituality, not dogma and worship.

[CrystalMaiden]

LOL @ MIDDLE EAST.

[Mason8]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

Japaneses are smart and don't believe in one God .. They have a lot of gods

[SkyBurn]

Since I do consider you a reasonable and likeable guy SkyBurn, I'll just state for the record that I was a militant atheist just like you.


Thank you :p but I prefer the term "passionate" to "militant" haha.

What you wrote was very interesting. I always find the views of ex-atheists fascinating. Some of the theory behind it, and the implications too. Even the political engineering of certain streams. But let's say for the sake of the argument that everything you said was true.

I cannot bring myself to truly believe in something where there is no evidence to support. Or something that requires a life-restricting framework for my future. Furthermore, I cannot endorse it for anybody else. Spirituality is one thing; it's harmless. Organised religion is something which baffles my sense of logic, and angers my sense of morality.

[Mason8]

I cannot bring myself to truly believe in something where there is no evidence to support. Or something that requires a life-restricting framework for my future. Furthermore, I cannot endorse it for anybody else. Spirituality is one thing; it's harmless. Organised religion is something which baffles my sense of logic, and angers my sense of morality.

Do you know .. I begin to be like you :rolleyes2:

[Gospodine]

I cannot bring myself to truly believe in something where there is no evidence to support. Or something that requires a life-restricting framework for my future. Furthermore, I cannot endorse it for anybody else. Spirituality is one thing; it's harmless. Organised religion is something which baffles my sense of logic, and angers my sense of morality.

If the powers that be want organised religion dead (and they do, it's painfully obvious); it's for reasons that are highly beneficial to them and highly detrimental to us. That is the main gist of my message.

It is not a call-to-arms in the defence of organised religion nor an alarmist prophecy, but simply the historically-attestable fact that whatever tyrants deem unsuitable for the masses and try to remove from them, is in fact, something that is preventing them from total submission to the tyrant's goals. And we do live under tyrants.

I used think exactly like you; the whole rigid, logical/left-brained mind that demanded concrete proof you could see under a microscope and plot onto a graph.

But unfortunately there are 2,000 years of repetitive history standing in the face of your apathy towards the intangible/meta-physical aspects of religion.
And those 2,000 years are marked by a never-ending battle between the people and the powers that be under the many guises they assumed from tribal chieftains to Pharaohs to Emperors to Popes to the Monarchy to the dictators of the 20th century; all of whom attempted to eliminate the "middle man", God, from the natural chain of command and insert themselves into our very minds, as presiding over all the influences that govern our very lives.

It matters not that some of them feigned religiousness, claimed to act in the interests or God or to channel his will; they were psychopaths first and foremost who due to their millenia of seclusion from normal society and their cults of personality, developed a lack of empathy to the point of genocidal tendencies.

In the 20th century, democide; that is death by government action or by agents acting on behalf of governments became the leading cause of non-natural human death.

You have a choice to make. Go with the logical conclusion; religion isn't perfect but its scriptures foretell us of the very world we are entering into now and the consequences of not acting or...

... Believe in nothing and sit idly by waiting for a new paradigm in human existence to just come out of nowhere and be adopted by all of humanity, and be so universally-applicable and egalitarian that even our rulers would relinquish their iron-grip over us for the sake of the greater good.

Atheism is inaction borne of willful ignorance and it simply won't suffice any significant challenge to human existence.

Remember Niemoller; First they came for the ______. Don't think you're suddenly free from manipulation and control just because you "believe in nothing"; your impressionable and empty mind is in fact the perfect vehicle to carry the message of Globalism. Idle hands; Devil's tools.

[Baluarte]

Your rant was quite paranoid.

We do not need religion. Religion has been a moral framework for long enough, but now it is simply a hindrance to humanism (rather than its saviour as you make out). I don't know how you think that religion stops subservience to man-made idols when that is exactly what religion is itself.

God is a man-made idol which requires the servitude of his followers. You've got it completely wrong.

You believe in humanism, how can you build yourself as a judge of character and start arguing other people are wrong?

[SkyBurn]

To some extent, atheism is a belief defined by it's lack of belief. But at the same time, there are many unwritten elements of atheism past simply denying organised religion.
We have a moral code; we abide by Secular Humanism. These morals prevent us from simply becoming the "vessels for corrupt government officials". If anything, it is scripture which can be quoted to push forward any possible point of view (from love to violence) and manipulate the masses into subservience based off piety.

Even if religion was the only was the only thing stopping me from being overcome with government mantra, I simply would not be capable of following it. Religion requires faith; something which cannot be forced or feigned. I cannot follow a religion, try as I might, if I don't believe in it.

Atheism is not a choice for me. Perhaps you changed your views, but your reasons for that revolve around fears for the future which I personally cannot foresee. My way of life is not significantly affected by the so-called corrupt government. However, it would be affected if the government was given religious elements.


You believe in humanism, how can you build yourself as a judge of character and start arguing other people are wrong?

wut.

[Gospodine]

My way of life is not significantly affected by the so-called corrupt government. However, it would be affected if the government was given religious elements.

Firstly, don't get too "wrapped up" in my tin-foil. Heh.

Opposition to government abuses of power is just a microcosm of the many reasons I think religion is a stabilising influence on society.

There's more, such as: promoting healthy gender roles and sexuality, the importance of family, its view of usury and banking, its libertarian and humanitarian ideals, its rather anti-establishment/anti-authoritarian mentality (I speak mainly of the Bible here), a strong sense of personal accountability for one's actions, its many eternal life truths and fables that we still reference to this day, the psychology and positive mental effects of spiritual reinforcement and servitude, etc.

Second, your way of life seems right to you because you don't know any different nor any better (and that's not your fault). I'd like to say I gave atheism a chance and there was something liberating about it at first but an overall emptiness and forlorn longing persists soon after, which atheists and irreligious people try to mask with frivolous distractions.

And no, if Australia was a declared Christian country with Christianity as its official religion; nothing would really change that'd impact your routine and creature comforts that you're used to. That's such a poor standard for revolutionary change anyway; "Oh hell, I can't get pissed every night anymore and shorten my lifespan. What's the point of learning to better myself if I can't have my cake and eat it too?"
Even if Christianity suddenly found a resurgence in adherence in the West; I seriously doubt the Old Testament would be the basis of Constitutions worldwide. Which is what you seem to be implying.

No one in the Christian World (or what's left of it) would advocate we all started live like Abraham did.

It's funny you declare yourself as a avowedly anti-nationalist/anti-patriot/anti-right-winger when in fact it seems to me that people such as yourself (not necessarily always atheists) are unwilling to challenge historical societal norms because of the some assumed reorganisation of one’s life that is required to do so. Despite the fact that your brand of Atheism/Counterculture movements asks that you make even greater sacrifices personally, intellectually, socially and behaviorally to reach an accepted level of devotion.

The thing I've noticed with atheists is that the sky's the limit basically; there is no such as "good enough" it seems, it's a degenerative spiral of seeing fault and imperfection in every single thing in one's life and it highly mirrors how superficial and fickle society has become in general.

Hypocrites and lukewarm believers are chastised in the Abrahamic faiths too but they are nevertheless eternally redeemable, even on their deathbeds; nothing is asked of them save admittance of their previous indiscretions.

Atheists on the other hand are eager to accept new members into their ranks from all walks of life but I don't know that any of them ever find peace with one another given the fluid and incredibly volatile state of atheist philosophy. It's a largely leaderless, disorganised and undefined movement. If there's technically no price of admission, no proof of one's self-worth, than how can you possibly derive any moral gain from Atheism?

You wouldn't trust any schmuck off the streets selling you something as benign as a toaster but you'd entrust any religious reject within your ranks?


You believe in humanism, how can you build yourself as a judge of character and start arguing other people are wrong?

What he was trying to say I believe is that you're mirroring that "holier-than-thou" attitude typical of religious fundamentalists by making judgements of others when apparently your belief system should hold no one accountable and realise that diversity of faith and opinion is part of the human condition. And he's right; what you're expressing isn't really humanism.

I was more expecting a reply from Migla on all this in the first place and not you; since she's very liable to make broad, sweeping statements and characterisations but never gives any sort of qualification of her opinion which I really dislike and find a common symptom of moral hypocrites.

[Baluarte]

No, I didn't mean that. Fundamentalism? xD

It's not difficult to be an agnostic/atheist or whatever comfortable term we can come up with. There's a reason for which most teenagers believe in it, just as I did for years.

The arguments are easy to grasp, cater to simplified ideas of freedom and equality and above all, display some very disgusting historical arrogance that get people hooked into it. After all, who wouldn't want to believe they're the most enlightened generation the world has ever seen?

It's also the ideology promoted by the system, because after all, the overwhelming majority of the time atheism results in worshipping laicism or secularism, which is what really matters anyway to keep the engine working.


Contrary to the friars and monks of previous centuries, I don't believe in evangelization.

Migla is just Migla.

[el22]

You believe in humanism, how can you build yourself as a judge of character and start arguing other people are wrong?

What does this mean Baluarte? He didn't imprison him. Judging if someone is wrong or right is one of our basic functions.

[SkyBurn]

Firstly, don't get too "wrapped up" in my tin-foil. Heh.I liked what you did there :p

Opposition to government abuses of power is just a microcosm of the many reasons I think religion is a stabilising influence on society.

There's more, such as: promoting healthy gender roles and sexuality I would say that promoting these actually creates an unhealthy mental state for many people, and does more harm than good, the importance of family, its view of usury and banking these are pretty much the way of corporations; in a capitalist society, it's a requirement to survive in the business world, its libertarian and humanitarian ideals, its rather anti-establishment/anti-authoritarian mentality (I speak mainly of the Bible here), a strong sense of personal accountability for one's actionsthats what the law is for, its many eternal life truths and fables that we still reference to this day, the psychology and positive mental effects of spiritual reinforcement and servitude, etc. I don't really see servitude as an aim tbh

Second, your way of life seems right to you because you don't know any different nor any better just a little patronising. I'd like to say I gave atheism a chance and there was something liberating about it at first but an overall emptiness and forlorn longing persists soon afterthat is how you received it. I am not you, which atheists and irreligious people try to mask with frivolous distractions.

And no, if Australia was a declared Christian country with Christianity as its official religion; nothing would really change, apart from us all learning to get along a little bit better except for anybody who doesn't like the Christian elements which would seep into Australia.
Even if Christianity suddenly found a resurgence in adherence in the West; I seriously doubt the Old Testament would be the basis of Constitutions worldwide. Which is what you seem to be implying not really. I'm talking more on moral perpectives and public school education.

No one in the Christian World (or what's left of it) would advocate we all started live like Abraham did.

It's funny you declare yourself as a avowedly anti-nationalist/anti-patriot/anti-right-winger I'm actually quite patriotic. Anti-right-wing yes, but some nationalism is fine when not based on ethnicity, religion or any other divisive factors when in fact it seems to me that people such as yourself (not necessarily always atheists) are unwilling to challenge historical societal norms because of the some assumed reorganisation of one’s life that is required to do soWhat? Challenging societal norms is pretty much the basis of any atheist political move. Changing the outdates Judeo-Christian morals which linger in our law is the point of our challenging and reorganising. Despite the fact that your brand of Atheism/Counterculture movements asks that you make even greater sacrifices personally, intellectually, socially and behaviorally to reach an accepted level of devotion.

The thing I've noticed with atheists is that the sky's the limit basically; there is no such as "good enough" it seems, it's a degenerative spiral of seeing fault and imperfection in every single thing in one's life and it highly mirrors how superficial and fickle society has become in general Or, alternatively, it's a critique of the harmful effects which religion have thrust upon society, and continue to. It has nothing to do with superficiality.

Hypocrites and lukewarm believers are chastised in the Abrahamic faiths too but they are nevertheless eternally redeemable, even on their deathbeds; nothing is asked of them save admittance of their previous indiscretions.

Atheists on the other hand are eager to accept new members into their ranks from all walks of life but I don't know that any of them ever find peace with one another given the fluid and incredibly volatile state of atheist philosophy. It's a largely leaderless, disorganised and undefined movement that is because it is not an organised religion. If there's technically no price of admission, no proof of one's self-worth, than how can you possibly derive any moral gain from Atheism? it's called accountability, which can still exist without the crappy threat of hell looming over the heads of the gullible



What he was trying to say I believe is that you're mirroring that "holier-than-thou" attitude typical of religious fundamentalists by making judgements of others when apparently your belief system should hold no one accountable and realise that diversity of faith and opinion is part of the human conditionyou shouldn't fall into the trap that everybody's opinions deserve respect. I doubt you think much of say, scientologists.. And he's right; what you're expressing isn't really humanism It is exactly humanism. When I see the stigma of homosexuality destroyed, and muslim women being equal in worth to men, the world will be a better place. People will be happier. By fighting for that goal, and caring for the human condition, I am being a textbook humanist..

I was more expecting a reply from Migla on all this in the first place and not you; since she's very laible to make broad, sweeping statements and characterisations but never gives any sort of qualification of her opinion which I really dislike and find a common symptom of moral hypocritesYou have been talking in broad statements yourself, which mostly seem to revolve around political paranoia to justify religion, which has got to be one of the strangest arguments I've ever seen for it. As far as moral hypocrisy goes, I think you're making the mistake of thinking that humanism requires consideration for all views..

^I didn't want to split quotes haha

[Baluarte]

Religion requires faith; something which cannot be forced or feigned. I cannot follow a religion, try as I might, if I don't believe in it.
.

Doesn't matter if you don't have faith, plenty of us have a hard time with that too in today's world.
It's not about you or the way you feel.

[SkyBurn]

No, I didn't mean that. Fundamentalism? xD

It's not difficult to be an agnostic/atheist or whatever comfortable term we can come up with. There's a reason for which most teenagers believe in it, just as I did for years.

The arguments are easy to grasp, cater to simplified ideas of freedom and equality and above all, display some very disgusting historical arrogance that get people hooked into it. After all, who wouldn't want to believe they're the most enlightened generation the world has ever seen?

It's also the ideology promoted by the system, because after all, the overwhelming majority of the time atheism results in worshipping laicism or secularism, which is what really matters anyway to keep the engine working.


Contrary to the friars and monks of previous centuries, I don't believe in evangelization.

Migla is just Migla.

The overwhelming majority of scientists are atheist/agnostic. Yet I do not believe that they are buying into some cultural conspiracy as you'd make out atheism to be.

The reason that they are not religious is because of one simple reason: no religion has any more proof than any other religion. Which means they are all equal in legitimacy, and therefore, illegitimacy. Atheism is a triumph; it means that you were able to overcome the religion which you had been indoctrinated into, and able to accept reason (I mean seriously, the religious dogmas are so ridiculous and unsubstantiated that its painful) over emotion.

[SkyBurn]

Doesn't matter if you don't have faith, plenty of us have a hard time with that too in today's world.
It's not about you or the way you feel.

That is exactly what it's about. Following a religion you don't believe in makes the entire point of spirituality and faith redundant.

[Baluarte]

The overwhelming majority of scientists are atheist/agnostic. Yet I do not believe that they are buying into some cultural conspiracy as you'd make out atheism to be.

Being a scientist doesn't make you culturally wiser, it just makes you a scientist.


The reason that they are not religious is because of one simple reason: no religion has any more proof than any other religion.

Christianism has a strong axiomatic component, which is why faith is a key virtue, Not a real critique.


Which means they are all equal in legitimacy, and therefore, illegitimacy.

Common theological principles don't hide socio-cultural different executions. Legitimacy is a political concept, not religious.


Atheism is a triumph; it means that you were able to overcome the religion which you had been indoctrinated into, and able to accept reason (I mean seriously, the religious dogmas are so ridiculous and unsubstantiated that its painful) over emotion.

Sorry, I've been served this kind of primary ideological statements since I'm 9 years old.
By now, I've managed to become modest enough to understand that all the "overcoming something to achieve victory" is purely propagandistic material, quite spiteful of people with religious convictions, and falsely tries to present the raving idiots that populate our societs as somehow more intelligent, when in reality, few times has humanity been dumber.

[Baluarte]

That is exactly what it's about. Following a religion you don't believe in makes the entire point of spirituality and faith redundant.

Every religion has a personal and an ethnocultural part.
Some put more stress in one, some in the other. Buddhism is a good example of the former, while Imperial Roman paganism is of the latter

"Spirituality" is yet another neologism to make the mediocre new age movements seem slightly more credible. Unexplained mysticism is just another face of stupidity.

[DarkSecret]

Turkey should have been 20% something. That's a lie...

[The King, I am]

um Denmark is like 80% irreligious at the very least

[curupira]

That's what I admire about the Chinese and Japanese... As a proof of their smartness, they have not fallen for semitic religions, by the way. :thumb001:


Other men argue against divine providence as they do not understand the mysteries contained in this marvellous plan; for they believe that it must be imperfect because God shows favouritism by making some people rich and others poor, especially as they look on poverty as something very detestable. Other people are instructed only by their haughty imaginations and thus do not grasp the divine mysteries; when they are told of them, they declare that the Creator and Maker of the angels was both imprudent and unwise, for he created Lucifer knowing that he was to fall from the happy state in which he had been placed and be condemned eternally to the pains of hell. And they use the same argument about Adam, for God created him knowing that he was to sin, thus showing (in their view) more inhumanity than mercy.
Marcelo de Ribadeneira

The great Oda Nobunaga, according to the Portuguese missionary Luís Fróis:


Nobunaga does not believe in an after-life or in anything he cannot see.


He is of good understanding and clear judgement, despising both Shinto and Buddhist deities and all other forms of idolatry and superstition. He is a nominal adherent of the Hokke (Lotus) sect but he openly proclaims that there are no such things as a Creator of the Universe nor immortality of the soul, nor any life after death. Extremely refined and clean in his dress and in the nobility of his actions.

[curupira]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

This would be a proof of their above average intelligence IMO. A great "intelligence test" would be at what age did you first question the idea of God and how long it took for you to not believe in it. :)

[Rudel]

Yeah it is allowed ofc.
I'm glad I had the opportunity to know Malta when it didn't have divorce. Now it's just in the same liberal satanic shit as the rest of us. The order of Saint-John should have kept its rule over it.


I think your mom is quite wrong on what she says. If anything Catholic church is a very matriarchal religion, more so than any other. I even dare to say is a sect branched from the Christian faith dedicated to the Virgin Mary.
Catholicism is the Christian faith. The other guys are the branches.


Percentages of people in European countries with no belief in a spirit, god, or life force (Eurobarometer 2005)
Life force ? What the fuck is that shit ? Dear God, please, end it now...


the Church has always and will always be corrupt. The stronger it is in one country, the more corrupt that country will be.
The face of a nation not corrupted by the Church :
http://www.contrepoints.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Gay-Pride-2011-Paris.jpg


Religion has been a moral framework for long enough, but now it is simply a hindrance to humanism (rather than its saviour as you make out).
Humanism without Christianity is absolute madness.


Guess where most of our Western common law derives from genius?
Customary British law ? The common law only concerns the Anglosphere anyway, not the rest of us Romans.

[Proctor]

Catholicism is the Christian faith. The other guys are the branches


They're all branches, including Catholicism.

[Baluarte]

They're all branches, including Catholicism.

There are only 2 recognisable branches. Eastern and Western, relating to the idea of Constantinople and Rome respectively. They obviously refer to Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Oriental Orthodoxy might in theory be a third branch, but it doesn't have the same projection than the two Roman branches.

The rest are just modern sects or garage cults.

[Proctor]

There are only 2 recognisable branches. Eastern and Western, relating to the idea of Constantinople and Rome respectively. They obviously refer to Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Oriental Orthodoxy might in theory be a third branch, but it doesn't have the same projection than the two Roman branches.

The rest are just modern sects or garage cults.

I wouldn't say that about Protestantism though, I mean, it makes sense, it confines strictly to what's in the bible and the word of Jesus.

[Virtuous]

I'm glad I had the opportunity to know Malta when it didn't have divorce. Now it's just in the same liberal satanic shit as the rest of us. The order of Saint-John should have kept its rule over it.

LOL The Order of St.John ended the rule because first of all, most of the Knights were in fact French, they had their supply line cut after the Revolution, in addition to the arrival of Napoleon in Malta that kicked their butts out of here and sought to implement the Revolutionary ideals of Republican France.

Honestly it would have been more beneficial if the French stood in Malta longer, societal reforms would have been beneficial, what I disagree with is how they issued orders to destroy the Cultural Heritage (Churches, Coat of Arms etc) and abolish completely the Church. A separation of Church and State would have been better, and no wonder Napoleon later on made peace with the Clergy, he recognized the importance in it keeping societal order.

[Baluarte]

I wouldn't say that about Protestantism though, I mean, it makes sense, it confines strictly to what's in the bible and the word of Jesus.

Mainstream Protestantism isn't a garage cult, but a collection of modernist sects (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Puritanism etc)

That's why I divided the rest in: modern sects or garage cults.

Garage cults like Mormonism, Pentecostals etc.

[WOOHP]

Ireland and Sweden are surprising to me

This shows atheist. There are some Swedes who believe in some kind force or spririt, or who are just agnostic.

Believers in Sweden are less than 5-10%, even less practice Lutheranism(except for Lucia and confirmation). I barely know anyone.

[WOOHP]

Don't know if already posted

Belief in a God

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg

Belief in a spririt or life force

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png

No belief

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Europe_No_Belief.png

[denz]

Not surprised about Czech Republic being n1 in Europe.
Never met any European folk who care as little as they do about religion. And once again, the cult of laicism in France shows its ugly face again.

For the rest it's quite normal. East Asians have never been that much into religion and their spirituality is naturalist not trascendental.

Laicism has ugly face in france and good face on turkey, am i right :)

[Baluarte]

Laicism has ugly face in france and good face on turkey, am i right :)

I've never cared to study Turkish society that much so I can't give a proper opinion. Don't know.. it undermines Sunnism in Anatolia so it can't be that bad.

[DarkSecret]

I've never cared to study Turkish society that much so I can't give a proper opinion. Don't know.. it undermines Sunnism in Anatolia so it can't be that bad.

Tengrism will minimise Sunnism soon... Then we will have Turan Empire hahahaha!!

[Krystal Meth]

Unsurprisingly the most religious nations are developing or third world and have low national IQ estimates, whilst the more atheist countries are rich and score high on things like the Human Development Index.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

What is the difference between believing God and Life Force /Spirit ..
(For me they are both same thing )

Belief in a God

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg

Belief in a spririt or life force

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png

[superhorn]

Atheism is not a religion, any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby .

[Äike]

Not surprised about Czech Republic being n1 in Europe.


Estonians are the most atheist people in Europe and the entire world. Swedes, Danes and Norwegians come 2nd, 3rd and 4th while the Czech are 5th.

[Wadaad]

Dont believe a map that claims there are more % Saudi atheists than Turks or even Iraqis...I know that is impossible

[HillY35]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?


Their defeat in WW2 and their inundation with foreign culture may be a reason.

[Balmung]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

Their major religion lost mainstream practice pretty much after the bombing.

Now it along with the rest of their old mythology serves as material for several Japanese fictional works. Pokemon being one of them. A large chunk of the Pokemon (the original ones that is) were influenced by old Japanese gods or mystical beast of mythology. Pikachu for example, his evolved form"Raichu" shares the same name as the companion of the shinto god of thunber Raiju.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raij%C5%AB

Ninetails comes form mythology too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Hokusai_Sangoku_Yoko-den.jpg

[LightHouse89]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

Japs are shintos. It is ancestral worship and a form of paganism.

[LightHouse89]

Dont believe a map that claims there are more % Saudi atheists than Turks or even Iraqis...I know that is impossible

they are forced to worship or they get their heads cut off or arms. Saudi Arabia is a backward country.

[Vesuvian Sky]

One thing I could never really find out is 'why the Czech Republic'? Its not necessarily linked to communism or anything like that as I thought I recall a source explaining that Czechs were 'always' rather non-religious but again why and what period is this attributed to in their history or is it something cultural?

[Baluarte]

One thing I could never really find out is 'why the Czech Republic'? Its not necessarily linked to communism or anything like that as I thought I recall a source explaining that Czechs were 'always' rather non-religious but again why and what period is this attributed to in their history or is it something cultural?

Just a thought out of nowhere: Bohemia was a fracture border between the Saxon Protestants and the Counterreformist Habsburgs. They had adopted Protestantism to some extent when Vienna imposed allegiance to Rome once again. Such a constant conversion undermines the sense of tradition, and makes it harder for the people to be devout to a particular religion.

I could be of course be spouting stupid shit. As I said, just an idea.

[Baluarte]

Estonians are the most atheist people in Europe and the entire world. Swedes, Danes and Norwegians come 2nd, 3rd and 4th while the Czech are 5th.

Do you think this has some correlation to the decadent state of Scandinavian countries?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Just a thought out of nowhere: Bohemia was a fracture border between the Saxon Protestants and the Counterreformist Habsburgs. They had adopted Protestantism to some extent when Vienna imposed allegiance to Rome once again. Such a constant conversion undermines the sense of tradition, and makes it harder for the people to be devout to a particular religion.

I could be of course be spouting stupid shit. As I said, just an idea.


Actually, after I posted that, I just remembered about Jan Hus and how some serious conflicts occurred between Catholics and Protestants in the region. Its funny though, most texts don't really seem to care to frame why the Czech republic is so Aethiest. Given that its one of the most atheist countries in the world, one would think a blurb about why or properly framing the context would be helpful in some text or research paper. Its certainly a significant statistic no doubt IMO, too significant to go without proper attention as to 'why'.

[Windischer]

it certainly has roots in czech reformation movement during 15th century (utraquism & radical, extremist sects), later joined with lutheran reformation, and, after the defeat of lutherans at the white mountain during 30 years war (which did erupt in czech lands in 1618, after all), often violent and oppressive counter-reformation was conducted by the habsburgs.
by 19th century the czechs were severely alienated from the catholic church because of catholic priests practices. catholic priests were often seen as mere servants of the habsburg regime (and these accusations were too often true, sadly). after the empire disintegrated in 1918, czechs openly displayed their hostility towards catholicism.
there was also a surge in renewed utraquist movement.
and czech lutherans have fallen to atheization in 2nd half of 20th century, like many other european lutheran communities.

[Manifest Destiny]

Can anyone explain the high % of Japanese?

They finally figured out that TubGirl wasn't the messiah.

[Dál Riata]

I think Canada would be higher up. Most Canadians just don't have the balls to admit they're atheist. My family was for generations but I was still raised in the Catholic church, so I wouldn't be bullied in school (but I still was). My mother just told us it was all lies when we got home, and that the church was anti woman so don't listen to them. My sister is doing the same with her son. Several of my friends, their families were the same.

Your family don't understand Catholicism. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with all the dogma and teaching and stuff, but 'anti-women' is a misunderstanding.