Europeans only: What should be the legal position of Islam in your country ?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think we should grant Islam the same position Christianity and Judaism "enjoy": dhimmitude. Those belonging to the Islamic faith will have to pay a protection tax, will not have the right to vote, not have the right to worship in public. Their places of worship should not be identifiable as such from the outside so they should have hidden mosques (like the schuilkerken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_church) of old)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Onze_lieve_heer_op_zolder.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Gertrudiskapel.JPG

There will be no social welfare for them. No public call to prayer, no public education system. Just dhimmitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Restrictions


Payment of the jizya obligated Muslim authorities to protect dhimmis in civil and military matters. Sura 9:29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quranic_verse_9:29) stipulates that jizya be exacted from non-Muslims as a condition required for jihad to cease. Failure to pay the jizya could result in the pledge of protection of a dhimmi's life and property becoming void, with the dhimmi facing the alternatives of conversion, enslavement or death (or imprisonment, as advocated by Abu Yusuf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Yusuf), the chief qadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadi) — religious judge — of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid).[100] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-lewis1415-100)
Taxation, from the perspective of dhimmis who came under Muslim rule, was "a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes".[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-Cahen-89) Lewis observes that the change from Byzantine to Arab rule was welcomed by many among the Dhimmis who found the new yoke far lighter than the old, both in taxation and in other matters, and that some even among the Christians of Syria and Egypt preferred the rule of Islam to that of Byzantines.[91] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-Lewis_p57-91) In some places, for example Egypt, the obligations of the Jizya tax created economic incentives for Christians to convert to Islam.[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-World-50)
The importance of dhimmis as a source of revenue for the Muslim community is illuminated in a letter ascribed to Umar I and cited by Abu Yusuf: "if we take dhimmis and share them out, what will be left for the Muslims who come after us? By God, Muslims would not find a man to talk to and profit from his labors."[101] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-101)
Most Islamic scholars agree that jizya must be levied only upon adult males. In an important early account, Malik's Muwatta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muwatta_Imam_Malik) reports that the jizya was collected from non-Muslim men only, and additional taxes were to be levied against dhimmis who travelled on business:

"The Sunnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnah) is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book), and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma ... do not have to pay any zakat ... This is because zakat is imposed on the Muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them." (Al-Muwatta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muwatta_Imam_Malik), 17 24.46 (http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/muwatta/017-mmt.php#017.17.24.46))
Lewis notes there are varying opinions among scholars as to how much of a burden jizya was.[100] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-lewis1415-100) According to Norman Stillman: "Jizya and kharaj were a crushing burden for the non-Muslim peasantry who eked out a bare living in a subsistence economy."[102] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-102) Both agree that ultimately, the additional taxation on non-Muslims was a critical factor that drove many dhimmis to leave their religion and accept Islam.[103] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-autogenerated1-103) However, in some regions the jizya on populations was significantly lower than the zakat, meaning dhimmi populations maintained an economic advantage.[104] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-104)
The early Islamic scholars took a relatively humane and practical attitude towards the collection of jizya, compared to the 11th century commentators writing when Islam was under threat both at home and abroad.[105] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-Lewis_1984_p._15-105)
The jurist Abu Yusuf, the chief judge of the Caliph Harun Al-Rashid, rules as follows regarding the manner of collecting the jizya [106] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-Lewis_1984.2C_p._15-106)

No one of the people of the dhimma should be beaten in order to exact payment of the jizya, nor made to stand in the hot sun, nor should hateful things be inflicted upon their bodies, or anything of that sort. Rather they should be treated with leniency.
In the border provinces, dhimmis were sometimes recruited for military operations. In such cases, they were exempted from jizya for the year of service.[107] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#cite_note-107)



We could always go sharia on them and follow the rules to the letter.

[YeshAtid]

its practically state religion

[Ivan Kramskoï]

Forbidden.

[The Lawspeaker]

Even better. I would be quite content with following sharia law when it comes to them though since they should not be seen and listed as citizens.

[YeshAtid]

Even better. I would be quite content with following sharia law when it comes to them though since they should not be seen and listed as citizens.

there's sharia in the uk

[randomguy1235]

I say ban it permanently! That backwards religion doesn't belong it teh civilized Europe!!11!

[The Lawspeaker]

there's sharia in the uk

As long as it applies to Muslims only. Let's put it this way: if a person flees Sharia law by walking onto the street he or she is a free person and should be under the jurisdiction of national law only.

[YeshAtid]

I say ban it permanently! That backwards religion doesn't belong it teh civilized Europe!!11!

lol!
Ham-Jew-dilah!

[YeshAtid]

As long as it applies to Muslims only. Let's put it this way: if a person flees Sharia law by walking onto the street he or she is a free person and should be under the jurisdiction of national law only.

its applied to non muslims as well

[The Lawspeaker]

its applied to non muslims as well

Then this is why is why they should be placed in dhimmitude. Permanently even. Their dhimmi status will be taken away as soon as they leave the country.

[YeshAtid]

Then this is why is why they should be placed in dhimmitude. Permanently even. Their dhimmi status will be taken away as soon as they leave the country.

would they be protected by law?

[Lucifer]

you have to burn your constitution first.

[The Lawspeaker]

would they be protected by law?
They would be under their own law unless out in a public space and local law should enforce the dhimmitude. So basically: when a Dutchman harms a Muslim he should be tried by a Dutch court. When a Muslim hurts a Muslim he should be tried by a Sharia court and when a Muslim harms a Dutchman he would face Dutch law.

[The Lawspeaker]

you have to burn your constitution first.

Which is invalid anyway.

[ABest]

It should be a minority religion in Christian countries.

However, it is annoying when Muslims demand things like having swimming pools closed for non-Muslims on certain days so that Muslim girls can swim. If they become able to integrate and adjust in society, then Islam can exist as a minority religion, just like so many other religions.

[YeshAtid]

But once someone leaves islam they are subject to dutch law?

[The Lawspeaker]

It should be a minority religion in Christian countries.

However, it is annoying when Muslims demand things like having swimming pools closed for non-Muslims on certain days so that Muslim girls can swim. If they are able to integrate and adjust in society, then Islam can exist as a minority religion, just like so many other religions.

I think that reality has shown us that that is not possible and this is why dhimmitude is such a good idea.

[YeshAtid]

It should be a minority religion in Christian countries.

However, it is annoying when Muslims demand things like having swimming pools closed for non-Muslims on certain days so that Muslim girls can swim. If they are able to integrate and adjust in society, then Islam can exist as a minority religion, just like so many other religions.
islam is state religion in uk

[The Lawspeaker]

But once someone leaves islam they are subject to dutch law?

Of course. Muslims do not have jurisdiction over non-Muslims.

[The Lawspeaker]

Technically, under dhimmitude, Muslims would be protected as "people of the book" - which is the kind of protection I just outlined. The dhimmitude system was a primitive form of freedom of religion (albeit only on paper). So since Islam wants our laws to be like theirs we should indeed do them that favour by placing THEM in dhimmitude - not ourselves.

[YeshAtid]

you have to burn your constitution first.

free palestine ?

[ABest]

I think that reality has shown us that that is not possible and this is why dhimmitude is such a good idea.

You are right. But do you think that there's any hope in the horizon, or not, in terms of them assimilating while retaining their Islamic faith?

[YeshAtid]

You are right. But do you think that there's any hope in the horizon, or not, in terms of them assimilating while retaining their Islamic faith?

Some moderates have in the uk?

[Szegedist]

In Hungary it is not a recognized religion, and it should stay that way.

Apart from this, no new Mosques (buildings from Ottoman era can either function as churches like Pécs, or simply museums).

There must be no political representation.



To make it clear, I don't support an anti-Islamic policy (I don't hate Islamic countries like Iran, Turkey and so on), I simply support No Islam for Hungary. What laws they have in their own countries is their business, if they want Shariah then OK, we wont stop them, but dont bring it to Christian countries, thanks..

[The Lawspeaker]

You are right. But do you think that there's any hope in the horizon, or not, in terms of them assimilating while retaining their Islamic faith?

I think the past millenium has shown us that, unfortunately, that isn't possible. Maybe they can enjoy such rights a hundred years or more from now. But I wouldn't hope for it if I were you.

[randomguy1235]

Guys, I found the cutest pic related to the topic ^_^

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/026/7/c/we_love_islam_by_nayzak-d382lhk.jpg

Why would you want to ban this? :D

[ABest]

I think the past millenium has shown us that, unfortunately, that isn't possible. Maybe they can enjoy such rights a hundred years or more from now. But I wouldn't hope for it if I were you.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well and usually I'm inclined to believe that (at least for the next few generations) Muslims will be culturally distinct and not really assimilated in the Christian/European countries that they inhabit.

[Diërker]

Guys, I found the cutest pic related to the topic ^_^

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/026/7/c/we_love_islam_by_nayzak-d382lhk.jpg

Why would you want to ban this? :rolleyes:

Because they don't give a rat's ass about people.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well and usually I'm inclined to believe that (at least for the next few generations) Muslims will be culturally distinct and not really assimilated within the Christian/European countries that they inhabit.

Well.. there have been 4 generations now and virtually no change.

[ABest]

Guys, I found the cutest pic related to the topic ^_^

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/026/7/c/we_love_islam_by_nayzak-d382lhk.jpg

Why would you want to ban this? :rolleyes:

Cute pic, I wish it reflected reality a bit more. I think Islam needs to evolve as a religion in order to allow the average European to "love" and respect its adherents.

[Damião de Góis]

Here they are too insignificant to have any kind of special status.

[ABest]

Well.. there have been 4 generations now and virtually no change.

Yep... I really am unsure about how things are going to unfold. But judging from the previous generations, things are not looking particularly promising, so your previous points make perfect sense currently.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's probably the only way out: make their lives difficult enough for them to want to leave.

[Mortimer]

at the apricity one can feel like in the good old days

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/Sxwi2SSUPlI/AAAAAAAAKRY/qRGuI0RDL14/s1600/segregation%2Bdrinking%2Bfountain.JPG

[Ivan Kramskoï]

It's probably the only way out: make their lives difficult enough for them to want to leave.
I read a while a study that said that without welfare about 50% of turks would leave germany so with a strong state nothing is lost
More and more I have the convictons that the majority of these people come to our lands in order to have a life paid by welfare and don't stay here in order to conquer it as I thought before.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

at the apricity one can feel like in the good old days

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/Sxwi2SSUPlI/AAAAAAAAKRY/qRGuI0RDL14/s1600/segregation%2Bdrinking%2Bfountain.JPG

A recent survey asked south africans of all race if they prefer south africa now or in the appartheid era ??
More than 50% prefered the appartheid era !!!

Ps:White south africans represent about 9% of its population

[Mortimer]

A recent survey asked south africans of all race if they prefer south africa now or in the appartheid era ??
More than 50% prefered the appartheid era !!!

Ps:White south africans represent about 9% of its population

http://reallybadboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WeShallOvercome79.jpg

[Graham]

Islam Legal.

Halal banned & Burqa banned.. Anyone who moans about that can go away.

[VladCa]

I am against any form of discrimination, including religious, but, if you take as example the riots from Sweden, where the Swedish offered them a peaceful place to live in, a home and an allowance for doing nothing, but just to have with what to live, and look what they did ... is this how they thank the Swedish authorities ? Or the examples from England and the many examples from The United States. Muslims cannot integrate into a civilized society, therefore they should stay out of our relatively peaceful (or very peaceful, compared to the rest of the world <most of it>) and wonderful continent.

[member]

Our muslim ethnic minority Tatars make absolutely no problems. I don't live in Eastern Lithuania but I haven't heard of ANY special demands. They've been living here for 6 centuries.

[VladCa]

Our muslim ethnic minority Tatars make absolutely no problems. I don't live in Eastern Lithuania but I haven't heard of ANY special demands. They've been living here for 6 centuries.

Well of course there are some exceptions, but generally, the above stated by me in the previous post, apply to muslims ...

[member]

Well of course there are some exceptions, but generally, the above stated by me in the previous post, apply to muslims ...

I think you don't have to ban islam. Simply don't please their demands, so they will have to adjust. You see, it's not Europeans who need muslims. It's them muslims who are immigrating here because they want to live in economically prosperous countries. Europeans are in charge, not them. That they feel like too much at home is a result of that "tolerance" crap. They simply use it as it's given them on a silver plate. Sorry, but there are enough Europeans who have to be dealt with firstly.

[VladCa]

I think you don't have to ban islam. Simply don't please their demands, so they will have to adjust. You see, it's not Europeans who need muslims. It's them muslims who are immigrating here because they want to live in economically prosperous countries. Europeans are in charge, not them. That they feel like too much at home is a result of that "tolerance" crap. They simply use it as it's given them on a silver plate. Sorry, but there are enough Europeans who have to be dealt with firstly.
There are allot of Europeans who have to be dealt with first, that is why we do not need to deal with the muslims too. But anyway, maybe, as you suggested, the Swedish were too kind with them. But still, the muslims are against the modern world, and sometimes they outburst and create huge problems in peaceful countries. Sweden is such a peaceful country, that the police officers are quite mild, therefore they cannot handle the outburst of the muslims.

[The Lawspeaker]

There are allot of Europeans who have to be dealt with first, that is why we do not need to deal with the muslims too. But anyway, maybe, as you suggested, the Swedish were too kind with them. But still, the muslims are against the modern world, and sometimes they outburst and create huge problems in peaceful countries. Sweden is such a peaceful country, that the police officers are quite mild, therefore they cannot handle the outburst of the muslims.

I agree. I do think, however, that there should be a difference in how we handle foreign criminals and our own: foreign criminals usually also have their own passport (along with a Dutch one) so we can take in the Dutch passport after (s)he has done time here and chuck the criminal back to his/her ancestral homelands.. and then we reserve our full wrath for our own homegrown crims: they are from here so they should know better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasphuis

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Melchior_Fokkens_Rasphuys.jpg


I still feel the same way about it. Along with the death penalty hard labour should be reinstated for every prisoner so jail time is always combined with hard labour (except for those that will be send to the gallows) so they can make back some of the costs of keeping them behind bars and combine it with therapy (if they can be released back into society). One way to do it would be to reinstate that beautiful institution known as the rasphuis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasphuis): an old Dutch institution dating back to the 17th century where prisoners had to shave hard Brazilian wood or else they would be thrown (and locked) into the flooded basement where they would have to pump out the water or drown. We could do the same thing now.. but just a little bit more modernised.

When it comes to the more hardcore cases such as recidivists we could sign an agreement with the Indonesians or the Surinamese and dump them into some godforsaken jungle where they can build a road, pipeline or railway with their bare hands and with malaria-infected mosquitoes to keep them company. A bit like "Bridge over the River Kwai".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Melchior_Fokkens_Rasphuys.jpg/684px-Melchior_Fokkens_Rasphuys.jpg

For lesser crimes it can also be combined with (this is where the punishment starts) a few hours in the stocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks) or in the pillory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory) at some very public place like in front of town hall or at the local market place..

I think that we should combine the old ceremonies that were used in 17th century Amsterdam with the modern legal system. So when someone is condemned to death the old ceremony should always take place (although prisoners should not be executed right away like in the old days but the prayer ceremony should take place twice (after the prisoner has been condemned to death and just before the execution). A prisoner will always have the right to appeal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzX8nIW-Veg

(subtitles are in English).


The method of execution should be death by hanging (using the British model and an updated official drop table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Table_of_Drops)).
This is what it would look like (from 00:53 onwards):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr0WR7oCp10

And unlike what was done during British executions a surgeon and a police officer should be on standby to determine whether the condemned prisoner has died or not.. and if not to administer the coup de grace by means of a pistol shot through the head.

The British slipknot:

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/noose1.jpg

http://img2-3.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/070606/movies/hangman_l.jpg


There should be two important principles:

the prisoner should not suffer more than is required (it would be best to use those methods that will kill the condemned instantaneously by snapping the neck)
unlike in the 17th century a prisoner will be removed from the gallows and will receive a decent funeral in accordance to his/ her religion. The debt to society has been repaid in full at the moment the condemned prisoner dies and the body should be treated with respect as is customary in civilised societies.

[Infinte]

Permanent ban, but they might change their IP and come back again..

[member]

There are allot of Europeans who have to be dealt with first, that is why we do not need to deal with the muslims too. But anyway, maybe, as you suggested, the Swedish were too kind with them. But still, the muslims are against the modern world, and sometimes they outburst and create huge problems in peaceful countries. Sweden is such a peaceful country, that the police officers are quite mild, therefore they cannot handle the outburst of the muslims.

I'm not saying Europe should allow even more muslims as we're speaking. Those disagreeing should be simply deported back to their home countries.

By the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UiUdpYVubY&feature=player_embedded

In Sweden this Swedish democrats party's clip was treated as not enough PC and Swedish commercial tv channel TV4 refused to show it.

Censured version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nXTDtIQXYbA#!

Swedes are too nice indeed.

[RussiaPrussia]

legal position should be to baptize them by force

[Empecinado]

At first, should be deported to their countries all the immigrants (Muslims or not) who have entered illegally here, as well their descendants.

Then the number of Muslims would be near 0%, as used to be since 1609 till 1995 approximately, so they wouldn't be a problem anymore. The islam then should have the status as any other religion, with the restriction of banning building mosques by money of any state.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Our muslim ethnic minority Tatars make absolutely no problems. I don't live in Eastern Lithuania but I haven't heard of ANY special demands. They've been living here for 6 centuries.

The same applies more or less for our own resident Muslims in Thrace. Although some of them marry their children from the age of 14, and some Muslim gypsies are known to trade babies, they are not usually engaged in something more serious.

The recent arrivals are an entirely different story altogether.

[Mausbier]

If you want Muslim immigrants out of Europe, just require their governments to stop political and economic intervention and also of supporting corrupt dictators in Africa and Middle Eastern like many European nations do. Except Belarus. :thumb001:


Swedes are too nice indeed.
They make a lot of profit selling weapons to a lot of dictatorships in Africa and the Middle East. Yet, they help to create instability in those regions. ;)

[VladCa]

If you want Muslim immigrants out of Europe, just require their governments to stop political and economic intervention and also of supporting corrupt dictators in Africa and Middle Eastern like many European nations do. Except Belarus. :thumb001:


They make a lot of profit selling weapons to a lot of dictatorships in Africa and the Middle East. Yet, they help to create instability in those regions. ;)

Pff ... a conspiracy theories adept ...

[Arend]

supporting corrupt dictators in Africa and Middle Eastern like many European nations do. Except Belarus."Belarus has been involved in arms export since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Having been one of the most militarized entities of the USSR, it was left with a significant stock of weapons including T-80 tanks, helicopters, ammunition, anti-aircraft systems and spare parts of military hardware dismantled (according to the Treaty of Conventional Arms and Armaments in Europe). A large part of these weapons were sold to other countries in 1992-2001 [...] According to the U.S. House of Representatives’ (H.R.4436), Belarus Arms transfers Accountability Act of 2009, “Belarus has been a significant supplier of [weapons] to Palestinian extremist groups and to state sponsors of terrorism, such as Iran and Syria, as well as Mi-24 helicopters, Artillery systems and Russian-origin armored combat vehicles to the Government of Sudan, tanks to the communist regime in North Korea, and military aircraft and aircraft engines to Iran.” [...]In 2006 Belarus and Sudan signed a military cooperation protocol. They had developed close military ties for several years, particularly over the supply of armored personnel carriers, the same type of which have been seen in Darfur (March 2007). On May 26, 2004, the government of Belarus reported that during 2003 it had exported to Sudan nine BMP 2 military vehicles, 39 BRDM 2 military vehicles, 32 122mm guns, including howitzers, all of Russian origin. In November 2008, the Libyan head of state visited Belarus along with Russia and Ukraine to secure the best possible arms deals."

http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/documents/ISDP_BelarusArmsTrade.pdf
http://www.helitorque.com/portal/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=451
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/opinion/09iht-eddouglas.3081249.html?_r=0


They make a lot of profit selling weapons to a lot of dictatorships in Africa and the Middle East. Yet, they help to create instability in those regions. ;)They? Who are they? The Swedes? Sweden’s arms exports are in contrast to those of other nations rather negligible; especially when you consider that they could sell a lot more if they wanted to.


If you want Muslim immigrants out of Europe, just require their governments to stop political and economic intervention"Their goverments" ? I am not quite sure what do you really mean with this, but anyway: Muslims come here and came here because they can walk into a ready-made position. They are not migrating because of political, but because of economic reasons.