Islam in the Netherlands: time for a final settlement

[The Lawspeaker]

First of all: let us realise that Islam does not belong in a country with a Christian-Humanist (and some say:Jewish) heritage. The behaviour of a great many of the Islamic immigrants has been downright appalling. This is how the number of those here can be drastically curtailed:

1) The older group that has worked here should be compensated for their labour on top of the pension they have built up. The government will buy property in Turkey and Morocco to build homes for the elderly where they can stay along with any family that wish to join them. Since we owe them something the Dutch government and their former employers will remain responsible for their welfare until they die and also arrange for their funerals. If any would wish to be "repatriated" to the Netherlands than that wish should be granted.

2) Those with two passports: if they refuse to give up their foreign passport they should see their Dutch passports revoked. They too will then be compensated for any labour and they will receive their pensions on their personal savings account. The government will assist them in finding jobs in their countries of birth.

3) The youngest generation: those with a criminal background will face immediate expulsion and since they usually hold two passports throwing them out will not be too difficult as their Dutch passport can be revoked.

4) The youngest generation: educated or uneducated. If they would wish to return to their countries of origin the country should assist them in doing so.

5) Refugees: they will be checked for the validity of their status. If they travelled through any other safe country then it may be assumed that only went here for financial reasons. They will see their permits to stay in the country revoked and they will be deported.

6. Native converts: arrangements should be made with their preferred countries about their immediate emigration and further loss of passport (if they so desire)

Remains: some of the older generation that really wished to stay and who have declared their allegiance and who have renounced the other passport, young people, some converts and some of the genuine refugees. For them special provisions should be made. Sunni and Shia should be declared sects and outlawed. Instead of this a new Islamic religious community (not unlike the Nederlands-Israëlitisch Kerkgenootschap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlands_Isra%C3%ABlitisch_Kerkgenootschap)) should be established in accordance to Dutch customs rather than Arabic which should then receive all the rights other church communities have at the expense of the early Islamic groups. The mosques built by Islam here should be demolished. In their place new buildings (a Dutch word that is sometimes used for mosques is "gebedshuizen", houses of prayer) gebedshuizen should be constructed which are based on a Dutch scale and Dutch architectural rules (something I tend to call "spatial integration" because it will no longer dominate the area with it's sheer presence).

A bit like this synagogue (for example) - all that that is needed in the Islamic tradition can still be integrated into the building (f.i no chairs, gebedsnis (mihrab), places to store shoes or to clean oneself):

http://www.amsterdamsights.com/amsterdam/photos/oldcentre/09.jpg

http://www.esnoga.com/img/jpg%20klein/_N080977b.jpg

The liturgy of the new community (let's call it the Nederlands Liberaal-Islamitisch Kerkgenootschap) should be translated into Dutch (including the Qu'ran - het Heilige Schrift (the Sacred Scripture(s) and the Hadith -Overleveringen (basically "that was has been passed on") and so is the service (prayers can be in Arabic). The call to prayer will only be held from the pulpit. Worshippers can be called to the house of prayer by means of a church bell or text message. Even the name of Allah should be translated to God, the title of Prophet to profeet and the title of imam to the traditional title voorganger (which is now out of use anyway and can be revived to have a new meaning. "he who leads the service/prayer"). Outlandish Arab clothing can also be replaced with something that would be more in line with Dutch tradition.

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1414427900/image.jpg

Or like a Danish minister so it looks different from a Dutch protestant minister (then without the crosses):

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1bQUgeeFs8U/TKqAKhGrW8I/AAAAAAAAFyQ/j7D7M91-kKQ/s800/Porvoo%20signing%20ceremony.JPG


The burqa and nikaab will be banned and remain banned and women can protect their modesty in a more.. traditionally Dutch way (long sleeves and if necessary a hat or cap and wear a head scarf "in church"). Quranic courts can be established in the same way Catholic and rabbinical courts exist today but their verdicts cannot run contrary to Dutch law.

For both Judaism and the new Islam genital mutilation of children (circumcision) should be banned as all forms of mutiliation of underaged children without a direct medical necessity should be banned: people can be circumsided from the age of 18 onwards.

Halal (rein - meaning clean) en kosher (koosjer, kosjer, geschikt - meaning: fit for consumption) should both be respected and receive the same treatment (packages can be marked as being halal and kashroet).

What it would lead too: less crime on the street, less extremism from all sides and a major restructuring of the Dutch political landscape: the PvdA, D66 and GroenLinks have been pandering to liberal and immigrant demands for a while and locally they have been demolished by ethnic lobby groups. They will probably lose most of their votes because the Dutch are already turning away from them and most immigrants would be gone. Another major loser would be the PVV which will find itself without an enemy to fight and politically they will be sidelined because of it: expect the PVV to be disbanded only a couple of year after the great transition. Parties that would profit would be the SP (they too would lose immigrant votes but they would receive more conservative PvdA-votes) and the more left-liberal minded would go to D66. At the end of the day the PvdA and GroenLinks will become unpopular that they might just as well merge with D66. So it would create new power blocks: conservative left, liberal left to centre. Centre to centre right.

So, in effect, a new Dutch Islam would be like the Dutchified Judaic faith: still the religion it was but without the cultural imperialism of the lands it left behind and more adapted to local conditions.

[The Lawspeaker]

Muslims: take a look.

[Lobotomist]

If all of this was even considered by the politicians in Netherlands, you would see rioting everywhere. I do agree with you, but it's too late for these fantasies and hopes.

[The Lawspeaker]

Then we would have needed the army to strike it down and then moderates from their group and normal Dutch people would be asking for such measures to be imposed.

[Lobotomist]

Then we would have needed the army to strike it down and then moderates from their group and normal Dutch people would be asking for such measures to be imposed.

Lefties and immigrants combined is a bigger group than patriots alone in Netherlands.

[The Lawspeaker]

Lefties and immigrants combined is a bigger group than patriots alone in Netherlands.

Not really. Last number of PVV voters was well over 1 million. Hardcore lefties are a couple of thousand people.

[evon]

The cultural side of Islam will change if immigration is stopped soon, but it will take a few generations for it to change, as basically now you have people whom are not fully assimilated in various countries, so they will be bicultural for the lack of a better term...But Islam can function in Europe just like any other faith, and it has a European history that goes back to its very beginning, so to call it unEuropean is somewhat misleading if you ask me, it narrows Europe down to Western Europe only.

[Pepe Gonzalez]

The cultural side of Islam will change if immigration is stopped soon, but it will take a few generations for it to change, as basically now you have people whom are not fully assimilated in various countries, so they will be bicultural for the lack of a better term...But Islam can function in Europe just like any other faith, and it has a European history that goes back to its very beginning, so to call it unEuropean is somewhat misleading if you ask me, it narrows Europe down to Western Europe only.
it has a european history of occupation and terror, yay
studies show that the younger generations are even less integrated than their parents and grandparents
it is getting worse, not better
time to deport them

[Cokolino]

Right...well, we Bosniaks have been adapting Islam to European conditions for a
few centuries now, so... if one could convince all the Muslims in Holland
to join the Bosniak Islamic Community, we`ll get them to drink Brandy
and hardly visit mosques in no time :D

[The Lawspeaker]

The cultural side of Islam will change if immigration is stopped soon, but it will take a few generations for it to change, as basically now you have people whom are not fully assimilated in various countries, so they will be bicultural for the lack of a better term...But Islam can function in Europe just like any other faith, and it has a European history that goes back to its very beginning, so to call it unEuropean is somewhat misleading if you ask me, it narrows Europe down to Western Europe only.
I only wish that was the case.. then such harsh measures wouldn't be necessary. So it's time to give them the choice: fit in or fuck off (for lack of better words). I am sure that a lot of younger people (from which some are Dutchified themselves) would opt for a Dutch Islamic "Church" instead and actually some debates within newspapers have already taken place: some young Islamic people (with a better education) already feel alienated by an Islam that feels alien to their own cultural identity.

[evon]

it has a european history of occupation and terror, yay
studies show that the younger generations are even less integrated than their parents and grandparents
it is getting worse, not better
time to deport them

Let me ask you, do you consider the Roman era in Iberia to be one of occupation and terror also? what about the Carthaginian? There is allot of assimilation in my country, but things could be different down there? Eitherway, deportation is not an option in a realistic world..

[The Lawspeaker]

Right...well, we Bosniaks have been adapting Islam to European conditions for a
few centuries now, so... if one could convince all the Muslims in Holland
to join the Bosniak Islamic Community, we`ll get them to drink Brandy
and hardly visit mosques in no time :D

Bosnian is yet again.. foreign. We don't need foreign influence here.

[Pepe Gonzalez]

Let me ask you, do you consider the Roman era in Iberia to be one of occupation and terror also? what about the Carthaginian? There is allot of assimilation in my country, but things could be different down there? Eitherway, deportation is not an option in a realistic world..
ask greeks, iberians etc what they think about the romans and then ask the balkanites what they think about the ottomans - that should answer your question

[arcticwolf]

Let me ask you, do you consider the Roman era in Iberia to be one of occupation and terror also? what about the Carthaginian? There is allot of assimilation in my country, but things could be different down there? Eitherway, deportation is not an option in a realistic world..

Evon, honestly now, is your opinion influenced by you having south and east asian component? Do you think self interest influences your opinion? Just curious.

[1stLightHorse]

Right...well, we Bosniaks have been adapting Islam to European conditions for a
few centuries now, so... if one could convince all the Muslims in Holland
to join the Bosniak Islamic Community, we`ll get them to drink Brandy
and hardly visit mosques in no time :D

:rotfl:

[evon]

I only wish that was the case.. then such harsh measures wouldn't be necessary. So it's time to give them the choice: fit in or fuck off (for lack of better words). I am sure that a lot of younger people (from which some are Dutchified themselves) would opt for a Dutch Islamic "Church" instead and actually some debates within newspapers have already taken place: some young Islamic people (with a better education) already feel alienated by an Islam that feels alien to their own cultural identity.

This feeling of alienation is a good sign, it shows that they are assimilated to a degree and are now identifying as Dutch, i would love to follow this debate in person (would be interesting to hear the various views on the matter), as i think the key is native Imams and self identification as Dutch...I have seen such changes with regards to Gay Muslims creating their own network...

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.stroom.nl/gfx/uploads/webPoldermoskee.jpg

Self-proclaimed imams are horrified at this plan known as the Poldermoskee. Preaching would be in Dutch only and they would cater for (mostly) young people. Imams fear that it would lead to radicalisation which is of course a bullshit excuse as they are just afraid to lose power.

http://www.eenvandaag.nl/binnenland/33340/imams_fel_tegen_poldermoskee

[wvwvw]

The cultural side of Islam will change if immigration is stopped soon, but it will take a few generations for it to change


Islam is not and cannot be considered ‘equivalent’ to the other major religions because its fundamental flaws are not the result of ‘bad interpretation,’ they are the result of doctrine. It is not that the text or spirit of what is in the Qur’an are ‘misinterpreted’ by those we have labeled ‘radical’ Muslims – thought this does happen – it is that the text fundamentally teaches exactly what those we call ‘radical’ are doing. Killing non-believers is commanded, and not just ‘in times of war’ as Muslim apologists would have us in the West believe. The Bible does not teach anything equivalent to this. In fact, it teaches the opposite. Christ, Himself, commanded His followers to preach the Gospel, but if anyone refuses to accept it, to just leave them to Him. Christ did not tell His disciples to cut off their heads, the Qur’an does.

[The Lawspeaker]

This feeling of alienation is a good sign, it shows that they are assimilated to a degree and are now identifying as Dutch, i would love to follow this debate in person (would be interesting to hear the various views on the matter), as i think the key is native Imams and self identification as Dutch...I have seen such changes with regards to Gay Muslims creating their own network...

With a bit of good luck it would lead to members of the younger generations giving imams the finger and actually breaking away much like the numerous schisms of various generations of Christians (which is a very typically Dutch feature and which has lead to the a couple of hundred big and small church communities that we have now - which to a Dutchman is a very positive thing). Can you believe it ? We have between 30.000 and 40.000 Jews here divided up by no less than six established communities and god knows how many organisations. Never mind the mind the Christians who have so many varieties (some 6 to 8 mainstream churches and god knows how many derivatives and derivatives of derivatives) that one basically shouldn't bother counting them.

Even the Catholics had their schisms and various opposing groups here.

[evon]

ask greeks, iberians etc what they think about the romans and then ask the balkanites what they think about the ottomans - that should answer your question

This is due to being closer in historical terms i am sure, had the Roman era as an example been closer in time, i am sure people would have felt it more strongly then they do these days, as is the case with the Ottoman Empire...


Evon, honestly now, is your opinion influenced by you having south and east asian component? Do you think self interest influences your opinion? Just curious.

My distant non-European ancestry have no saying on my opinion, why should it? I have academically studied Islam at some length for personal gain, and i have grown up dating Muslims ect, so its just part of my life, but not my ancestry..

[Pepe Gonzalez]

This is due to being closer in historical terms i am sure, had the Roman era as an example been closer in time, i am sure people would have felt it more strongly then they do these days, as is the case with the Ottoman Empire...


roman lifestyle, technology and buildings were treasured and preserved in much of europe, the ottomans are hated by all except bosniaks... romans made a big contribution, muslims contributed nothing but terror and raising taxes

[evon]

roman lifestyle, technology and buildings were treasured and preserved in much of europe, the ottomans are hated by all except bosniaks... romans made a big contribution, muslims contributed nothing but terror and raising taxes

The Muslims in Iberia gave Europe allot of new innovations, everything from architecture to hard sciences and Philosophy...The Ottomans also gave Europe allot, but i guess you are ignorant about your own history since you keep focusing on the Ottomans rather then on the Iberian region?

[The Lawspeaker]

So, basically, it's probably only a matter of time before a major schism takes place and that will definitely change the religious landscape. It's not really a question of "if" but more of "when" it will happen.

[Pepe Gonzalez]

The Muslims in Iberia gave Europe allot of new innovations, everything from architecture to hard sciences and Philosophy...The Ottomans also gave Europe allot, but i guess you are ignorant about your own history since you keep focusing on the Ottomans rather then on the Iberian region?

"al andaluz" is the darkest chapter in spanish history, its "greatness" a liberal/leftist/anti-western lie. it´s not worth to speak about it, it´s worth to spit on it

[evon]

So, basically, it's probably only a matter of time before a major schism takes place and that will definitely change the religious landscape. It's not really a question of "if" but more of "when" it will happen.

It has already happened a few times (the biggest being Shism, but also Ibadism ect), the main enemy of diversity in Islam is the Hajj, but as Saudi Arabia is under Wahabism, many people feel alienated with the idea of visiting such a controversial place..

My understanding of Islam is that its very diverse, but that there is a false sense of unity among Muslims (and among European media and some academics), this can be seen when some liberal minded Muslims dont truly phantom that there are some with stark opposite views to them, and whom also are Muslims in the same sense as them..

The diversity within Islam is fully seen in the idea of "Folk Islam", which is basically various local cultures mixed with Islam, these are very visible in places such as Africa and South Asian, especially among local Sufi brotherhoods...

[Vasconcelos]

The Muslims in Iberia gave Europe allot of new innovations, everything from architecture to hard sciences and Philosophy...The Ottomans also gave Europe allot, but i guess you are ignorant about your own history since you keep focusing on the Ottomans rather then on the Iberian region?

"Their" innovations were taken from the Byzantines in the East, it's not like a group of desert nomads had achieved great technological and philosophical wonders before they ravaged the Byzantine Empire :\

EDIT: And Persians.

[evon]

"al andaluz" is the darkest chapter in spanish history, its "greatness" a liberal/leftist/anti-western lie. it´s not worth to speak about it, it´s worth to spit on it

Yeah.... :bored: All hail Franco!

[evon]

"Their" innovations were taken from the Byzantines in the East, it's not like a group of desert nomads had achieved great technological and philosofical wonders before they ravaged Byzantine Empire :\

They were not nomads, and the innovations were mostly pre-Islamic of near eastern origin, some from further east, but many where created by Muslims themselves as their numbers grew...Muslim is not equal Arab, that was only every partly true in the very first period, and the multi-ethnic make-up of Islam was cemented with the rise of the Abbasid empire..

[Pepe Gonzalez]

They were not nomads, and the innovations were mostly pre-Islamic of near eastern origin, some from further east, but many where created by Muslims themselves as their numbers grew...Muslim is not equal Arab, that was only every partly true in the very first period, and was cemented with the rise of the Abbasid empire..
please, what contribution did muslims create?

[The Lawspeaker]

It could even be done in a much smarter way: many Church communities already have to sell their buildings because they do not meet the required number of members needed to pay the bills. What if.. in some cities the old main churches and cathedrals could be updated (to provide the services needed for the various communities) and shared between communities ?

Let's think about this: Catholic church service in the Utrecht Dom at 10 in the morning
Church service of a Dutch Islamic community at 4.
Protestants will be attending at 9.

Between the services tourists will have the time to check the cathedral. It would really reduce Church upkeep for all communities present.

[evon]

please, what contribution did muslims create?

Ibn Sina, Al-Farabi, Ibn Rushd, any of these names ring a bell?

Here is a list i found, i am tired, so i will be going offline now, but this should be sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

[evon]

It could even be done in a much smarter way: many Church communities already have to sell their buildings because they do not meet the required number of members needed to pay the bills. What if.. in some cities the old main churches and cathedrals could be updated (to provide the services needed for the various communities) and shared between communities ?

Let's think about this: Catholic church service in the Utrecht Dom at 10 in the morning
Church service of a Dutch Islamic community at 4.
Protestants will be attending at 9.

Between the services tourists will have the time to check the cathedral. It would really reduce Church upkeep for all communities present.

There were some plans for making a inter-faith temple in my city, it would serve to accommodate all faiths and would be build in a modern fashion..Sadly i think it lacked funding or something, so ive not heard anything about it for a few years now...

[arcticwolf]

Yeah.... :bored: All hail Franco!

The very idea of submission is alien to freedom loving Europeans. We love being free, independent and not sheep like in all ways. There might be certain nationalities which have the tendency to be ruled by a strong man, but majority of Europeans love freedom and democracy. There is a reason Communism, National Socialism and similar cults failed and were opposed.

[Pepe Gonzalez]

Here is a list i found, i am tired, so i will be going offline now, but this should be sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

read the list, not a single relevant contribution, mostly islamic culture and art
not surprised, though - you can see their intelligence until this very day

[The Lawspeaker]

There were some plans for making a inter-faith temple in my city, it would serve to accommodate all faiths and would be build in a modern fashion..Sadly i think it lacked funding or something, so ive not heard anything about it for a few years now...

Think of it: using an ancient monument as an inter-faith temple. In the case of Utrecht it would actually have to lead to the reconstruction of all the buildings at Domplein and the reconstruction of the other churches. Now that would be one fantastic way of preserving Dutch cultural heritage in a new era: there would be paid subscribers, the buildings would have an actual goal and they can be used for other purposes all the time and everyone is happy.

Dom Cathedral:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_van_Utrecht

And since most of the old churches were torn during the Reformation they would now have to be rebuilt with public money.

[Empecinado]

The Muslims in Iberia gave Europe allot of new innovations, everything from architecture to hard sciences and Philosophy...The Ottomans also gave Europe allot, but i guess you are ignorant about your own history since you keep focusing on the Ottomans rather then on the Iberian region?

The majority of Muslim architecture in Spain is basically formed by autochthonous and Byzantine elements, and the works of Greek philosophy and arithmetic were translated by Mozarabics (the Christians living in Muslim lands), because they were the ones who knew Greek and Latin as the Greek was the language used in their liturgical rite ( Liturgy of St. Chrysostom) and Latin because was their cult language. Even the pope Silvester II travelled to a monastery created by Mozarabics to learn mathematics.

And all this was introduced in the rest of Europe not by Muslims, but by a institution created by Christians called the Toledo School of Translators, where Mozarabics and Jews who knew Arab translated it (and many works from Jews and Arabs too) to Latin, and many scholars from all Europe came to Toledo to learn and read these works.

[arcticwolf]

Think of it: using an ancient monument as an inter-faith temple. In the case of Utrecht it would actually have to lead to the reconstruction of all the buildings at Domplein and the reconstruction of the other churches. Now that would be one fantastic way of preserving Dutch cultural heritage in a new era: there would be paid subscribers, the buildings would have an actual goal and they can be used for other purposes all the time and everyone is happy.

Are you turning New Age on me? :P You are not a member of inter Galactic Church are you? :laugh:

[The Lawspeaker]

Are you turning New Age on me? :P You are not a member of inter Galactic Church are you? :laugh:

No: it's called pragmatism. You'll be killing two birds with one stone: all-faith communities would then see their costs cut and we can protect national heritage with paid subscribers at the price of one. Well.. I wonder why it hasn't bee done in an age of cutbacks. Most mosques can then be demolished, most churches sold off and used for other purposes and national heritage is protected so finally all those church communities would get out of the red figures and the mosques can keep the Saudi's out. And because of the contact between various groups radicalisation within Islamic groups can be prevented or snuffed out right from the start.

[arcticwolf]

No: it's called pragmatism. You'll be killing two birds with one stone: all-faith communities would then see their costs cut and we can protect national heritage with paid subscribers at the price of one. Well.. I wonder why it hasn't bee done in an age of cutbacks. Most mosques can then be demolished, most churches sold off and used for other purposes and national heritage is protected so finally all those church communities would get out of the red figures and the mosques can keep the Saudi's out. And because of the contact between various groups radicalisation within Islamic groups can be prevented or snuffed out right from the start.

In theory that might work, I like the taxation most of all! But, but there are some differences so profound that I fail to see how the common ground can be found without using force to make it happen.

How do you reconcile free will and submission? I think your plan needs to be split into tasks, each one with a project manager overseeing it to work all the rough spots out.

Reality is the herd like minds will always tend to yearn for someone to lead them, while the independent minds don't need any place to feel spiritual, they do feel that way even when they drink scotch in a sailor's bar. :laugh:

[The Lawspeaker]

In theory that might work, I like the taxation most of all! But, but there are some differences so profound that I fail to see how the common ground can be found without using force to make it happen.

How do you reconcile free will and submission? I think your plan needs to be split into tasks, each one with a project manager overseeing it to work all the rough spots out.

Reality is the herd like minds will always tend to yearn for someone to lead them, while the independent minds don't need any place to feel spiritual, they do feel that way even when they drink scotch in a sailor's bar. :laugh:

Ach one way we could force Muslims is by disallowing foreign funding of mosques. ;) See how fast they would become the most enthusiastic proponents of such a unity plan.

[arcticwolf]

Ach one way we could force Muslims is by disallowing foreign funding of mosques. ;) See how fast they would become the most enthusiastic proponents of such a unity plan.

That should be the law already.

[The Lawspeaker]

That should be the law already.

It should be. Those Saudi's are dangerous people. One could also say that all future Islamic liturgy should be printed within the European Union (better: the Netherlands) and some of the worst problems will then have been stamped out overnight.

[arcticwolf]

It should be. Those Saudi's are dangerous people. One could also say that all future Islamic liturgy should be printed within the European Union (better: the Netherlands) and some of the worst problems will then have been stamped out overnight.

Why should religion be free to subvert the law of the land? I for one am fed up with the notion that religion is free from scrutiny because it supposedly comes from God? If that was the case why is there so many opposing versions? Religion should be disorganized and left up to an individual's spirituality. Organized spirituality is an oxymoron anyways.

[The Lawspeaker]

Why should religion be free to subvert the law of the land? I for one am fed up with the notion that religion is free from scrutiny because it supposedly comes from God? If that was the case why is there so many opposing versions? Religion should be disorganized and left up to an individual's spirituality. Organized spirituality is an oxymoron anyways.
I think that the freedom of religion should only extent that use religion constructively and do not wish harm upon their (adopted or not) homeland. Current Islam should be seen as a dangerous sect and should therefore be dealt with but if one would cut off the Saudi, Turkish, Iranian, Morrocan etc. funding it could perhaps be reformed to a Dutchified institution that can then be left on it's own. Most people will probably feel themselves "discriminated" and since they have second passport they can leave the country - leaving it to those that want to be Dutch and prefer a modern, Dutch structure.

[arcticwolf]

I think that the freedom of religion should only extent that use religion constructively and do not wish harm upon their (adopted or not) homeland. Current Islam should be seen as a dangerous sect and should therefore be dealt with but if one would cut off the Saudi, Turkish, Iranian, Morrocan etc. funding it could perhaps be reformed to a Dutchified institution that can then be left on it's own. Most people will probably feel themselves "discriminated" and since they have second passport they can leave the country - leaving it to those that want to be Dutch and prefer a modern, Dutch structure.

I know you are looking for workable solution, I hope you find one before it's too late. If freedom is lost this planet will be a dark and hopeless place. I rather perish than live without freedom. I don't care what it is if it's totalitarian and without freedom I don't want any part of it. If we have to have a religion, I would make it Buddhism, as it is totally and utterly based on freedom and individuality. That is one religion that is totally compatible with a modern humanist European mind.

[The Lawspeaker]

I know you are looking for workable solution, I hope you find one before it's too late. If freedom is lost this planet will be a dark and hopeless place. I rather perish than live without freedom. I don't care what it is if it's totalitarian and without freedom I don't want any part of it. If we have to have a religion, I would make it Buddhism, as it is totally and utterly based on freedom and individuality. That is one religion that is totally compatible with a modern humanist European mind.

I agree. I think that in the future Christianity & Islam in Europe will be more and more forced to the margins as more and more people will turn to atheism or in the case of a lot of Dutch: private spirituality - like a European form of Buddhism. The odd thing is that eventhough the Netherlands is usually seen as an atheist society it isn't as more people have their own spiritual believes. This could be less than a century from now but until then a workable solution is needed.

[Incal]

After reading OP's proposals, I can only add this:

http://www.mematic.com/_/gifs/applause/applause-gif-3.gif

Actually, every nation in the world should adopt those measures.

[arcticwolf]

I agree. I think that in the future Christianity & Islam in Europe will be more and more forced to the margins as more and more people will turn to atheism or in the case of a lot of Dutch: private spirituality - like a European form of Buddhism. The odd thing is that eventhough the Netherlands is usually seen as an atheist society it isn't as more people have their own spiritual believes. This could be less than a century from now but until then a workable solution is needed.

Agree. Atheism or agnosticism do not bother me at all. They are good starting points before the spiritual journey begins. Well friend I hope you are right and we will not descend into darkness and barbarian ways like Rome did. More Europeans need to grow a pair and stand for our values. If we won't no one else will.

[evon]

The very idea of submission is alien to freedom loving Europeans. We love being free, independent and not sheep like in all ways. There might be certain nationalities which have the tendency to be ruled by a strong man, but majority of Europeans love freedom and democracy. There is a reason Communism, National Socialism and similar cults failed and were opposed.

This is not really true for most of Europe, Eastern Europe and parts of Northern Europe have been bound by Serfdom for a long time until quite recently in history, freedom as we know it in Europe is a modern status quo, and it is not something that should be taken for granted..


read the list, not a single relevant contribution, mostly islamic culture and art
not surprised, though - you can see their intelligence until this very day

How is some not relevant? and art and culture is just as important as anything else :picard1:


Think of it: using an ancient monument as an inter-faith temple. In the case of Utrecht it would actually have to lead to the reconstruction of all the buildings at Domplein and the reconstruction of the other churches. Now that would be one fantastic way of preserving Dutch cultural heritage in a new era: there would be paid subscribers, the buildings would have an actual goal and they can be used for other purposes all the time and everyone is happy.

Dom Cathedral:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_van_Utrecht

And since most of the old churches were torn during the Reformation they would now have to be rebuilt with public money.

This is the upside of using churches, here most churches are pretty much empty museums gathering dust..


The majority of Muslim architecture in Spain is basically formed by autochthonous and Byzantine elements, and the works of Greek philosophy and arithmetic were translated by Mozarabics (the Christians living in Muslim lands), because they were the ones who knew Greek and Latin as the Greek was the language used in their liturgical rite ( Liturgy of St. Chrysostom) and Latin because was their cult language. Even the pope Silvester II travelled to a monastery created by Mozarabics to learn mathematics.

And all this was introduced in the rest of Europe not by Muslims, but by a institution created by Christians called the Toledo School of Translators, where Mozarabics and Jews who knew Arab translated it (and many works from Jews and Arabs too) to Latin, and many scholars from all Europe came to Toledo to learn and read these works.

I was not talking about the Greek and Latin philosophy, i was talking about the Muslim philosophers such as Ibn Sina, whom contributed to philosophy in a great way, not as a transmitter of prior Greek ideas, but as a innovator.

The architecture have many other roots then Byzantium, especially the gardens and the emphasis on water usage in city planning, and the idea that only Christians and not Muslims had access and where transmitters of knowledge is very ignorant...It is also very wrong to trace the roots of things to a singular civilization as you do, all innovations have multiple roots, most of Classical Greeks innovations in architecture has Near Eastern and Egyptian roots, but i dont see you debating the Egyptianness of Greek statues.

[Empecinado]

I was not talking about the Greek and Latin philosophy, i was talking about the Muslim philosophers such as Ibn Sina, whom contributed to philosophy in a great way, not as a transmitter of prior Greek ideas, but as a innovator.

The architecture have many other roots then Byzantium, especially the gardens and the emphasis on water usage in city planning, and the idea that only Christians and not Muslims had access and where transmitters of knowledge is very ignorant...It is also very wrong to trace the roots of things to a singular civilization as you do, all innovations have multiple roots, most of Classical Greeks innovations in architecture has Near Eastern and Egyptian roots, but i dont see you debating the Egyptianness of Greek statues.

I refer to things as such. Horseshoe arch, quite common and present in Cordoba mosque for example, was used here since pre-Roman times, and still most of the people believes it was an Arab invention. Or the star of 8 points, this is even older, came from the Tartessos civilization and also most of the people believes it is from Arab origin. The same with the irrigation systems, knew by old Iberians, with the palms, brought by Phoenician traders and not by Arabs, and many other stuff.

And is totally true that only Christians had access to works in Latin or Greek, because they knew perfectly these idioms, the Muslims doesn't, they knew Arabic and Algarabía (a mix of colloquial Latin with Arabic), also were Christians (and Jews) who translated from Arab the works of Muslim philosophers and scientists, introducing it in the rest of Europe.

[SSlava]

irst of all: let us realise that Islam does not belong in a country with a Christian-Humanist (and some say:Jewish) heritage. The behaviour of a great many of the Islamic immigrants has been downright appalling. This is how the number of those here can be drastically curtailed:

1) The older group that has worked here should be compensated for their labour on top of the pension they have built up. The government will buy property in Turkey and Morocco to build homes for the elderly where they can stay along with any family that wish to join them. Since we owe them something the Dutch government and their former employers will remain responsible for their welfare until they die and also arrange for their funerals. If any would wish to be "repatriated" to the Netherlands than that wish should be granted.

2) Those with two passports: if they refuse to give up their foreign passport they should see their Dutch passports revoked. They too will then be compensated for any labour and they will receive their pensions on their personal savings account. The government will assist them in finding jobs in their countries of birth.

3) The youngest generation: those with a criminal background will face immediate expulsion and since they usually hold two passports throwing them out will not be too difficult as their Dutch passport can be revoked.

4) The youngest generation: educated or uneducated. If they would wish to return to their countries of origin the country should assist them in doing so.

5) Refugees: they will be checked for the validity of their status. If they travelled through any other safe country then it may be assumed that only went here for financial reasons. They will see their permits to stay in the country revoked and they will be deported.

6. Native converts: arrangements should be made with their preferred countries about their immediate emigration and further loss of passport (if they so desire)

Remains: some of the older generation that really wished to stay and who have declared their allegiance and who have renounced the other passport, young people, some converts and some of the genuine refugees. For them special provisions should be made. Sunni and Shia should be declared sects and outlawed. Instead of this a new Islamic religious community (not unlike the Nederlands-Israëlitisch Kerkgenootschap) should be established in accordance to Dutch customs rather than Arabic which should then receive all the rights other church communities have at the expense of the early Islamic groups. The mosques built by Islam here should be demolished. In their place new buildings (a Dutch word that is sometimes used for mosques is "gebedshuizen", houses of prayer) gebedshuizen should be constructed which are based on a Dutch scale and Dutch architectural rules (something I tend to call "spatial integration" because it will no longer dominate the area with it's sheer presence).

A bit like this synagogue (for example) - all that that is needed in the Islamic tradition can still be integrated into the building (f.i no chairs, gebedsnis (mihrab), places to store shoes or to clean oneself):

All right! You urgently need to take such action, otherwise it will be too late. Restrict the flow of migrants from African and Arab countries. or even prevent the residents of these countries to enter for you. It should also ban gay parades and the promotion of homosexuality.

[SkyBurn]

Moved to the Netherlands subforum :)

[The Lawspeaker]

I think that we should set our own domestic policies in accordance to our own standards, Russian.

[Arianiti]

When you will become Muslim. you Lawspeaker, as you spent too much time dealing with it?

[The Lawspeaker]

When you will become Muslim. you Lawspeaker, as you spent too much time dealing with it?

Never. I concern myself at issues that trouble my country. When will you become a mudslime ?

[SSlava]

I think that we should set our own domestic policies in accordance to our own standards, Russian.
To be honest, I feel sorry for the Netherlands, and all the countries of Europe. See how she dies. It is very terrible.
But unfortunately, the end is inevitable with such liberalism and migration flows.

[Arianiti]

Never. I concern myself at issues that trouble my country. When will you become a mudslime ?

I doubt on it. I have read somewhere that people who were the most anti-islamic, after a time they converted to Islam.

One day, maybe.

[The Lawspeaker]

I doubt on it. I have read somewhere that people who were the most anti-islamic, after a time they converted to Islam.

One day, maybe.
I have reported your post for trolling.

[Arianiti]

good for you.

[The Lawspeaker]

The main problem with Islam is that we have allowed them their religion and traditions in such a way that they run contrary to our own culture and laws.

[Albion]

To be honest, I feel sorry for the Netherlands, and all the countries of Europe. See how she dies. It is very terrible.
But unfortunately, the end is inevitable with such liberalism and migration flows.

Russia is part of Europe and has the same problems.