Miss World Portugal 2013 - Miss Elisabete Rodrigues

[Madonna]

classify and where can she pass?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/600790_335122769947002_1295409445_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/263131_335123129946966_1419114917_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/198876_335512366574709_1320659849_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/417866_334181010041178_1217071927_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/249145_334180996707846_198654876_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/946128_334181103374502_526224526_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/198903_334181170041162_2046587246_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/936386_334181076707838_664820450_n.jpg

[Amun]

SouthMed with Amerindian. I don't think she is fully ethnic Portuguese.

[singular]

SouthMed with Amerindian. I don't think she is fully ethnic Portuguese.

+1.

[Smaug]

Clearly not fully Portuguese, and ugly, I know there are much prittier full Portuguese women out there. She looks mulatta.

[Madonna]

Elisabete Rodrigues is Cape Verdean

[Hunting Shadows]

Berid + Saharid

[Ibericus]

She passes in Brazil

[Smaug]

Elisabete Rodrigues is Cape Verdean

Cape Verdeans are mixed. Cristiano Ronaldo is also from there.

[Vasconcelos]

:picard1:

[Amour]

obv not portuguese

[Gaijin]

She's not Portuguese.
She's from Venezuela.

[Madonna]

really ?
I need to check it again maybe I miss something

[Twistedmind]

Atlantid/Berberid.

PS I do not know Portugese, but Miss Mundo Portugal is not that hard to understand. I dont know her origin, but seems she at least participated in that peagenat.

[Madonna]

yes you are right :)

http://noticias.sapo.cv/vida/noticias/artigo/1257206.html

why do they call her Miss Portugal in different article quite interesting

can someone change topic ? :)

[BLUEU]

She looks quadroonoid. 3/4 European + 1/4 African. Predominantely Atlanto-Med + significant Sudanid influence.

[tEhSaint]

local Cromagno-Alpinoid variety with Negroid admixture.

[Sikeliot]

Looks like America Ferrera or Jordin Sparks. Clearly not fully Portuguese though I can see the Iberian in her.

[Lusos]

She's only Portuguese of Nationality.
At least they could find a pretty one.

[Damião de Góis]

She is actually venezuelan.

[Roy]

How many people so many versions ... :rolleyes:

[Damião de Góis]

How many people so many versions ... :rolleyes:

She is venezuelan. Lives there and her full name is Elisabete Mejias Rodrigues. Mejias is a surname you won't find in Portugal, Cape Verde, or any other portuguese speaking country.

[Madonna]

but why do they call her like that in this article ? are they sane there or not ?

[Damião de Góis]

but why do they call her like that in this article ? are they sane there or not ?

What article? If you mean this one, i read it and there's no mention of Portugal except on a link in the upper right of the page to go to news from Portugal.

http://noticias.sapo.cv/vida/noticias/artigo/1257206.html

[Madonna]

What article? If you mean this one, i read it and there's no mention of Portugal except on a link in the upper right of the page to go to news from Portugal.

http://noticias.sapo.cv/vida/noticias/artigo/1257206.html

My Portuguese Sunshine

look at her sash - what they wrote there ?

Miss Mundo Portugal !!! lol

look what they wrote here

http://livewireworld.info/miss-world/miss-world-2013/elisabete-rodrigues-miss-world-portugal-2013/4589/
http://www.globalbeauties.com/blog/2012/07/miss-republica-portuguesa-2013/

Elisabeth Rodrigues/Elisabete Rodrigues was crowned Miss Republica Portuguesa 2013 at the Olga Cadaval Cultural Center in Sintra on July 27, 2012. She will represent Portugal in Miss World 2013 in Bali, Indonesia. Indira Ferreira and Carmen Fernandes were the runners-up.

Her hometown is VIla Nova de Cerveira in Portugal.

[Damião de Góis]

My Portuguese Sunshine

look at her sash - what they wrote there ?

Miss Mundo Portugal !!! lol

look what they wrote here

http://livewireworld.info/miss-world/miss-world-2013/elisabete-rodrigues-miss-world-portugal-2013/4589/
http://www.globalbeauties.com/blog/2012/07/miss-republica-portuguesa-2013/

Elisabeth Rodrigues/Elisabete Rodrigues was crowned Miss Republica Portuguesa 2013 at the Olga Cadaval Cultural Center in Sintra on July 27, 2012. She will represent Portugal in Miss World 2013 in Bali, Indonesia. Indira Ferreira and Carmen Fernandes were the runners-up.

Her hometown is VIla Nova de Cerveira in Portugal.

Ok it seems that she won two events: Miss Cape Verdean Airlines and Miss Portuguese Republic. As from where she is from, the info is contradictory. Some say Vila Nova, others say Venezuela. She seems to have a slight accent, but she doesn't seem to be Venezuelan like i thought. Confusing.

https://pt-br.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200857781828312&set=vb.111584788929243&type=3&theater

[hero guy]

Some kind of nonwhite peace of shit I gues! Not sure about proper classificaion.

[quaquaraqua]

She has the typical capeverdian features!

[Methusalem]

Some kind of nonwhite peace of shit I gues! Not sure about proper classificaion.

You should learn to spell if you want to insult someone. Next time don't overuse your tiny brain cell.:ranger:

Back on topic: Looks Quadroon/Mestiza. Cromagnoid/Mediterranid + Amerindian(Pueblid) and minor Negroid influence.

[aherne]

Triracial

[hero guy]

You should learn to spell if you want to insult someone. Next time don't overuse your tiny brain cell.:ranger:

Back on topic: Looks Quadroon/Mestiza. Cromagnoid/Mediterranid + Amerindian(Pueblid) and minor Negroid influence.

Thanks for the tip about my grammar. But you are not the right person who can judge about my brain or intelect.

[ChocolateFace]

Mostly Berid

[Atlantic Islander]

You don't have to be Portuguese in order to participate - you just have to be born in Portugal or be a naturalized citizen for at least a year (https://www.facebook.com/notes/miss-rep%C3%BAblica-portuguesa/abertura-de-inscri%C3%A7%C3%B5es-miss-republica-portuguesa-2013/375149819239404).

[Vasconcelos]

Mostly Berid

..

[Tropico]

Wow shes not attractive. Ive seen WAY hotter Portuguese chicks.

[Manifest Destiny]

1) I grew up in a town with a lot of Portuguese people and I now live in a different town with a lot of Portuguese people. She doesn't look like any Portuguese person I've ever seen.

2) Is she seriously the most attractive women in all of Portugal? No wonder their birth rates are so low.

[Lábaru]

Latino/Afro Shemale.

[B01AB20]

no words.

I expect anxiously the day when miss spain will be some paki with burqa included, and I will find it to be 'very satisfactory for us like a modern and open society', of course.

[Smeagol]

Looks Brazilian.

[Gauthier]

Fugly mulatoid.

[Anthropologique]

She's hardly indigenous Portuguese. LOL! Europe and the rest of the West keeps nominating negroids and half-castes for beauty contests because, if they don't, fear being labeled "racist." Wasn't one of the recent Danish winners a black?

[Anthropologique]

Looks Brazilian.

She's a Cape Verdean half-caste.

[aherne]

Some mulattas are beautiful, but this one is not. Inherits robusticity from both sides (Berid and Negroid) thus looks like a man on drags. Not attractive by any standards and quite a joke as "Miss PORTUGAL".

[Corvus]

Some mulattas are beautiful, but this one is not. Inherits robusticity from both sides (Berid and Negroid) thus looks like a man on drags. Not attractive by any standards and quite a joke as "Miss PORTUGAL".

I could not agree more. This woman looks masculine

[Melina]

Clearly not fully Portuguese, and ugly, I know there are much prittier full Portuguese women out there. She looks mulatta.

She does not look mestiza. She definitely looks mulatta.

[Maximum Speed]

south american mestizo
very ugly

[Smaug]

She does not look mestiza. She definitely looks mulatta.

That's what I said =P

[Sikeliot]

I'm sorry but she has the worst of both sides -- the worst sort of Iberian phenotype combined with an unattractive type of African.

Some Portuguese-African mixes can be beautiful (i.e. Suzanna Lubrano) but this woman is ugly.

[B01AB20]

I'm sorry but she has the worst of both sides -- the worst sort of Iberian phenotype combined with an unattractive type of African.

Some Portuguese-African mixes can be beautiful (i.e. Suzanna Lubrano) but this woman is ugly.

pues yo me la follaba de todas formas... and sorry for the off-topic.

[Eurokat]

She's a Cape Verdean half-caste.

She is not Cape Verdean. This has already proven as false.

Compare her to Miss Cape Verde:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcsSoJM02MXZaikFH4NJRCp0nyS-W5ZkCVQ0THPPCikDhybJRJX9-CwGYFLQ

[Eurokat]

She is not Cape Verdean...this is a lie. She's actually half Portuguese half Venezuelan
If you look at the other full Portuguese contestants, they are no better looking.

You can see the resemblance btwn her and her fully Portuguese counterparts, same type of bone structure:
37891

[Anthropologique]

She is not Cape Verdean. This has already proven as false.

Compare her to Miss Cape Verde:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcsSoJM02MXZaikFH4NJRCp0nyS-W5ZkCVQ0THPPCikDhybJRJX9-CwGYFLQ

Then what is she, half Angolan, Mozambican, Guinea-Bissauan, Sao Tome' e Pricipan? Doesn't matter. She's part negroid and won the contest for reasons of political correctness.

[Eurokat]

Please did you see the other contestants 80% of them look worse than her. She's half Venezuelan. Not African.

[Eurokat]

Is Miss Portugal 2010 better looking than her lol:
http://beautypageantnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Catarina-Aragonez.jpg

[Anthropologique]

Is Miss Portugal 2010 better looking than her lol:
http://beautypageantnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Catarina-Aragonez.jpg

NO

[Eurokat]

Then what is she, half Angolan, Mozambican, Guinea-Bissauan, Sao Tome' e Pricipan? Doesn't matter. She's part negroid and won the contest for reasons of political correctness.

She won the contest because the other full Portuguese girls didn't look better than her. Many of them look masculine. If you would like I can post the pictures.

[Anthropologique]

Is she better looking than her? LOL!

[MelinusMargos]

If she's beautiful my ass is a garden...

[Eurokat]

Is she better looking than her? LOL!

No, She is not better looking than her. I believe she is also is from Venezuala.

But in this contest she was as good looking as 80% of the other contestants. Remember Venezuelans knows pageants so she probably had other qualities. Portugal could never even step in the same realm of the type beauty queens Venezuela produces.

[Anthropologique]

No, She is not better looking than her. I believe she is also is from Venezuala.

But in this contest she was as good looking as 80% of the other contestants. Remember Venezuelans knows pageants so she probably had other qualities. Portugal could never even step in the same realm of the type beauty queens Venezuela produces.

You're blind lady. If you're going to come here to troll, I suggest you find something else to do.

[Eurokat]

Maybe you misunderstood: I do think the girl you posted is better looking, but that is pointless because she was not in the pageant with her. The point is most of the fully Portuguese women in the pageant with Elisebete were not better looking. Why must you lie that she is half Cape Verde/other African.

The last half Cape Verdean who won Miss portugal was this girl:
http://www.miss-galaxy.com/Images/Misses/cv/0.jpg

[Anthropologique]

Lie? The Miss Portugal woman is mulatto and many people, including myself, assumed Cape Verdean admixture. "Beauty" contests should be banned anyway. Worthless.

[Benacer]

I'm pretty sure she has Brazilid admixture and perhaps some SSA too. I think she looks most typical in some areas of Maranhão and Ceará.

[Eurokat]

She's hardly a mulatta. Her Venezuelan side is probably tri-racial. she's actually a very attractive girl. I was looking at her Facebook.

http://youtu.be/wjyQL8L5O6E

[Damião de Góis]

She is not Cape Verdean...this is a lie. She's actually half Portuguese half Venezuelan
If you look at the other full Portuguese contestants, they are no better looking.

You can see the resemblance btwn her and her fully Portuguese counterparts, same type of bone structure:
37891

Very bad picture... and very bad comparison:

http://oi39.tinypic.com/11ifiib.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/228525_4065622472713_1756918062_n.jpg

[Hadouken]

why is she miss portugal ?

i think it has been years since i have seen a miss who looks like women in the country that she is representing lol :p jk but wtf is this

[Cail]

Roflmao, ugly as hell... What a joke.

Could pass as half-Australian Aborigine I guess

[Eurokat]

Very bad picture... and very bad comparison:

http://oi39.tinypic.com/11ifiib.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/228525_4065622472713_1756918062_n.jpg

Your picture is even better. I didn't say they were twins but look at both their jaw lines.

[Eurokat]

She is Miss Portugal because she was born there, her father is full ethnic Portuguese, she knows the culture, she was just as good looking as most of the contestants, and she probably had better "miss" qualities than the others. Would there be an uproar if a half Irish girl with the same background won?

[KidMulat]

One also has to admit the Miss competitions are so political is not even funny; Portugal is being propped up by her former colonies namely Angola, Mozambique and Brazil, therefore a shift of who and what is Portuguese is shifting once again.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion though since Portugal has been so mixed with different ethnic and racial groups for so long what a "proper" Portuguese person is can depend on time period and region

[Hadouken]

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion though since Portugal has been so mixed with different ethnic and racial groups for so long what a "proper" Portuguese person is can depend on time period and region

no it doesnt work like that

a portuguese person is a ....portuguese person

mixed with something else is not really a "true" portuguese anymore

this girl is obviously mixed with something else

nobody has the right to rob them their identity and show people as portuguese which are obviously not (not fully)

[Eurokat]

Well the new one is not full ethnic Portuguese either. Why isn't there an uproar?

http://girlscontestupdate.com/images/miss_world/2013/August/Portugal/Miss-World-Portual-2013-update.jpg

[Hadouken]

Well the new one is not full ethnic Portuguese either. Why isn't there an uproar?

http://girlscontestupdate.com/images/miss_world/2013/August/Portugal/Miss-World-Portual-2013-update.jpg

what is she ?

edit: oh ok she seems half greek

well ...you know the answer ;)

[Eurokat]

One also has to admit the Miss competitions are so political is not even funny; Portugal is being propped up by her former colonies namely Angola, Mozambique and Brazil, therefore a shift of who and what is Portuguese is shifting once again.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion though since Portugal has been so mixed with different ethnic and racial groups for so long what a "proper" Portuguese person is can depend on time period and region

That theory is wrong at least on the African end because there were plenty of mulattas in that competition. They chose a woman who is half Venezuelan. Maybe they were being given free oil.:picard1:

[Smaug]

The thing is: not pretty and not (ethnically) Portuguese. The last thing she should be is a "Miss".

[Cleitus]

She has Ape admixture.

[blogen]

SouthMed with Amerindian. I don't think she is fully ethnic Portuguese.

I dont see any Amerindian caracter! The girl is a Mulatto.

[Eurokat]

Miss Portugal 2014. She is also only half Portuguese. Maybe they are trying to please the Greeks now:eek:

[KidMulat]

no it doesnt work like that

a portuguese person is a ....portuguese person

mixed with something else is not really a "true" portuguese anymore

this girl is obviously mixed with something else

nobody has the right to rob them their identity and show people as portuguese which are obviously not (not fully)

*sigh* Portugal has a history of absorbing many groups of people
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vxx0F6zZUfwC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=mocambo+lisbon&source=bl&ots=NfLbj78GxS&sig=Ea_XYe7fDsGnnPuenIN3CzpUKyU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qeNGUu2uNo-oqwGjqoD4CA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mocambo%20lisbon&f=false

The definition of what is or was Portugese varied but a hallmark was the Catholic Faith and intergration into Catholic communities.

I am NOT saying Portugal or Portugese were largely black, Berber, or Arab. I am stating the historical records show intermarriage and mixing with the broader Portugese communities creating a multi-faceted "face" of who and was a Portuguese person in the past.

I can provide more links but one can do searches themselves.

[Hadouken]

Miss Portugal 2014. She is also only half Portuguese. Maybe they are trying to please the Greeks now:eek:

you know why

the half greek girl looks sorry to use the term but "white" and fits better to the picture of what portuguese people look like than for example a girl who is half portuguese and half sudanese ....you know what i mean ?

[Hadouken]

*sigh* Portugal has a history of absorbing many groups of people
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vxx0F6zZUfwC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=mocambo+lisbon&source=bl&ots=NfLbj78GxS&sig=Ea_XYe7fDsGnnPuenIN3CzpUKyU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qeNGUu2uNo-oqwGjqoD4CA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mocambo%20lisbon&f=false

The definition of what is or was Portugese varied but a hallmark was the Catholic Faith and intergration into Catholic communities.

I am NOT saying Portugal or Portugese were largely black, Berber, or Arab. I am stating the historical records show intermarriage and mixing with the broader Portugese communities creating a multi-faceted "face" of who and was a Portuguese person in the past.

I can provide more links but one can do searches themselves.

well we know how native portuguese people look like (i know quite a few also in real life) today and thats enough

[Twistedmind]

*sigh* Portugal has a history of absorbing many groups of people
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vxx0F6zZUfwC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=mocambo+lisbon&source=bl&ots=NfLbj78GxS&sig=Ea_XYe7fDsGnnPuenIN3CzpUKyU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qeNGUu2uNo-oqwGjqoD4CA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mocambo%20lisbon&f=false

The definition of what is or was Portugese varied but a hallmark was the Catholic Faith and intergration into Catholic communities.

I am NOT saying Portugal or Portugese were largely black, Berber, or Arab. I am stating the historical records show intermarriage and mixing with the broader Portugese communities creating a multi-faceted "face" of who and was a Portuguese person in the past.

I can provide more links but one can do searches themselves.

Black slaves living in Lisbon were not Portugese. Europe is not melting pott like US.

[KidMulat]

well we know how native portuguese people look like (i know quite a few also in real life) today and thats enough

Please do some reading on the concept of Nationalism (please not Wikipedia) and the concept of being a native subject of a National body.

We are speaking at too different planes; I understand your concept of native within the construct of modern Portuguese identity however its basis is that of post Reconquista, post- Atlantic Slave Trade, post-Colonial era rhetoric (which is not a bad thing) but is a rather linear and erasive narrative that runs counter to the records of early modern era Iberia.

[Damião de Góis]

One also has to admit the Miss competitions are so political is not even funny; Portugal is being propped up by her former colonies namely Angola, Mozambique and Brazil, therefore a shift of who and what is Portuguese is shifting once again.


No it didn't. It's very easy to see who is or who isn't ethnic portuguese if you visit Lisbon.

[Rouxinol]

One also has to admit the Miss competitions are so political is not even funny; Portugal is being propped up by her former colonies namely Angola, Mozambique and Brazil, therefore a shift of who and what is Portuguese is shifting once again.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion though since Portugal has been so mixed with different ethnic and racial groups for so long what a "proper" Portuguese person is can depend on time period and region

Now a KidMulat from Louisiana is an expert in Portuguese history. Interesting. It doesn't depend on the time period nor region, the Portuguese ethnicity has been established with Afonso I with the establishment of the Kingdom of Portugal. A "proper" or fully ethnic Portuguese person is one who has no extra-Portuguese admixture (as from the colonies or elsewhere) and the bulk of the ethnic Portuguese of today resemble the Portuguese of the time of Afonso I or - at least - the Age of Discoveries (see Painéis de São Vicente, 15th century paiting of the Portuguese society's elite of the time). Basically - as it is self-evident - the racial types are the same. The bulk ethnic component of mainland Portugal has not been altered during the past 500 years of colonial history to the point of turning it into a "Brazil" in Europe - at least, not yet.

As to these "misses", never heard of them. Neither the half-Greek, nor the half-something else.

[KidMulat]

No it didn't. It's very easy to see who is or who isn't ethnic portuguese if you visit Lisbon.

You are not understanding me; I am saying the idea and concept of who and what is a Portuguese person is not static and is informed by various pressures and ideas of purity, cultural assimilation, and unconscious/conscious distancing of non-Iberian ancestry.

Not that Lisbon residents aren't native, not that these new people are in our minds "just as native", or that they are "the same" rather that there is a mercurial quality to the idea of native within the context of Nationhood and Nationality.

[KidMulat]

Now a KidMulat from Louisiana is an expert in Portuguese history. Interesting. It doesn't depend on the time period nor region, the Portuguese ethnicity has been established with Afonso I with the establishment of the Kingdom of Portugal. A "proper" Portuguese person is one who has no extra-Portuguese admixture (as from the colonies) and the bulk of the ethnic Portuguese of today ressemble the Portuguese of the time of Afonso I or - at least - the Age of Discoveries (see Painéis de São Vicente, 15th century paiting of the Portuguese society elite of the time). Basically - as it is self-evident - the racial types are the same. The bulk ethnic component of mainland Portugal has not been altered during the past 500 years of colonial history to the point of turning it into a "Brazil" in Europe - at least, not yet.

As to these "misses", never heard of them. Neither the half-Greek, nor the half-something else.


An example: in Louisiana it is often stated that there is a group called "Cajun" that are of French heritage and that they arrived from Arcadia and they continued a distinct culture in a region of southern lousiana called Arcadiana.

1. Cajun was an exonymous term made by Anglo-Americans to refer to poor people inhabiting land purchased after the Adams-Onis Treaty and the Lousiana Purchase (Another group not related to them are the Cajans of Alabama who now call themselves the MOWA Choctaw Tribe)

2. A significant amount of the Arcadians in Canada were In fact Basque people who became French

3. This migrant community was a drop in the bucket and were coming to a region that had migrants from all over the world and quite contrary to modern narratives assimilated with Czechs, Italians, Isleno, Filipino, Germans/Swiss (themselves from regions that where cut into and out of national boundaries), Negro, Mulatto and AmerInd populations.

4.They were not so much a distinct people but more so a composite of intermixing folks who were part of the underclass; most identified themselves as Creole (Which for the record does not explicitly imply black ancestry but of colonial French identity).

5. The ethnogenesis of Cajuns was created by tourist dollar minded politicians who created the narrative of a Cajun people, constructed a Cajun history, and Cajun identity

Tl;Dr
The boundaries of who is what in the context of National Identity is a construction.

[Gaijin]

Elisabeta Rodrigues is not ethnically Portuguese, nor anything that assembles such identity.

The guidelines in Portugal, for a person to enter the Beauty pageant states that a contestant does not need to be native to the country, nor in any way related to the country.
The only requirement is that the person must reside in the country, for a period of 12 months.

Examples of Portuguese women, the women native to Portugal, can be found in the link below:
http://portuguesewomen.blogspot.pt/


But surely...If one most consider ethnic minorities born or living in Portugal, to be Portuguese.
One must also consider ethnic minorities born or living in some other European country, to be respectively part of that European country.

Miss France 2003. She is French.
http://08.wir.skyrock.net/wir/v1/resize/?c=isi&im=%2F3631%2F88053631%2Fpics%2F3161491654_1_2_SbhC xA3D.jpg&w=320

Miss Norway 2010. She is Norwegian.
http://jambonewspot.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/miss_norway.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

Tl;Dr
The boundaries of who is what in the context of National Identity is a construction.

Those boudaries are static, and in our case they are there since 1143.

[Anthropologique]

You are not understanding me; I am saying the idea and concept of who and what is a Portuguese person is not static and is informed by various pressures and ideas of purity, cultural assimilation, and unconscious/conscious distancing of non-Iberian ancestry.

Not that Lisbon residents aren't native, not that these new people are in our minds "just as native", or that they are "the same" rather that there is a mercurial quality to the idea of native within the context of Nationhood and Nationality.

If you are not autochthonous Portuguese (i.e., Full "Euro") you are NOT Portuguese. Portugal, like other European, does not treat someone as native, if the person in question has extra-Euro markers.

[Anthropologique]

You are not understanding me; I am saying the idea and concept of who and what is a Portuguese person is not static and is informed by various pressures and ideas of purity, cultural assimilation, and unconscious/conscious distancing of non-Iberian ancestry.

Not that Lisbon residents aren't native, not that these new people are in our minds "just as native", or that they are "the same" rather that there is a mercurial quality to the idea of native within the context of Nationhood and Nationality.

If you are not autochthonous Portuguese (i.e., Full "Euro") you are NOT Portuguese. Portugal, like other European nations, does not treat someone as native, if the person in question has extra-Euro markers.

[KidMulat]

Those boudaries are static, and in our case they are there since 1143.

Converso Jewish assimilation before, during and after the expulsion?

Assimilation of Ladino black African servants, slaves, and sailors?

Beothuk slaves brought by Gaspar Corte-Real?

Indigenous slaves brought back during the Joint Crown Period?

I really am not trying to turn this into a Portuguese aren't or are pure thread; I am saying that the boundaries shift and change when facilitating people over an extended period of time.

[Damião de Góis]

Converso Jewish assimilation before, during and after the expulsion?

foreigners.


Assimilation of Ladino black African servants, slaves, and sailors?

foreigners.


Beothuk slaves brought by Gaspar Corte-Real?

foreigners.


Indigenous slaves brought back during the Joint Crown Period?

more foreigners.


I really am not trying to turn this into a Portuguese aren't or are pure thread; I am saying that the boundaries shift and change when facilitating people over an extended period of time.

I think they also brought elephants and rhinos to show the king, but they didn't become a portuguese species because of that, as far as i know.

[Armand_Duval]

She looks black influenced, clearly...... I think she is nice looking, not my cup of tea tho, I think to have a woman with that phenotype as a beauty queen for a country like Portugal is stupid....:picard1:

[KidMulat]

foreigners.



foreigners.



foreigners.



more foreigners.



I think they also brought elephants and rhinos to show the king, but they didn't become a portuguese species because of that, as far as i know.

I am not saying they were never consider foreigners I am saying that as they and their children assimilated into Portuguese society becoming Portuguese, becoming part of the "native" Portuguese we speak of today to juxtapose against the "foreign" Portuguese born minorities.

Are you getting what I am saying now (I am not trying to patronize I am just really not understanding how your not getting my train of thought :confused:)

[Anthropologique]

Please do some reading on the concept of Nationalism (please not Wikipedia) and the concept of being a native subject of a National body.

We are speaking at too different planes; I understand your concept of native within the construct of modern Portuguese identity however its basis is that of post Reconquista, post- Atlantic Slave Trade, post-Colonial era rhetoric (which is not a bad thing) but is a rather linear and erasive narrative that runs counter to the records of early modern era Iberia.

Portuguese identity has been constructed, au fond, on an Atlantic genetic and socio-cultural stratum that existed thousands of year prior to Portugal becoming a royal county or kingdom. Socio-culturally, the only non-Atlantic influences of consequence on Portuguese ethnic identity have been Roman Romance ones.

Portuguese ethnic awareness today consists of Celtic and Romance elements, and not necessarily - to any great extent - TRADITIONAL Mediterranean impactors.

[Anthropologique]

I am not saying they were never consider foreigners I am saying that as they and their children assimilated into Portuguese society becoming Portuguese, becoming part of the "native" Portuguese we speak of today to juxtapose against the "foreign" Portuguese born minorities.

Are you getting what I am saying now (I am not trying to patronize I am just really not understanding how your not getting my train of thought :confused:)

There are extra-Euro "Portuguese" who are CITIZENS of Portugal but are not (and will never be) autochthonous Portuguese. It's really that simple for Portugal.

[Furnace]

She looks black influenced, clearly...... I think she is nice looking, not my cup of tea tho, I think to have a woman with that phenotype as a beauty queen for a country like Portugal is stupid....:picard1:

yes, it defeats the purpose.

[KidMulat]

There are extra-Euro "Portuguese" who are CITIZENS of Portugal but are not (and will never be) autochthonous Portuguese. It's really that simple for Portugal.

So you are saying the descendants of long ago assimilated ethnic and racial groups who are now perceived as native Portuguese are in fact not Portuguese and that they or there ancestors for the past 1 to 3 centuries were never and have never been perceived as native Portuguese even as intermarriage decreased rather than increased their number?

[Anthropologique]

Converso Jewish assimilation before, during and after the expulsion?

Assimilation of Ladino black African servants, slaves, and sailors?

Beothuk slaves brought by Gaspar Corte-Real?

Indigenous slaves brought back during the Joint Crown Period?

I really am not trying to turn this into a Portuguese aren't or are pure thread; I am saying that the boundaries shift and change when facilitating people over an extended period of time.

What assimilation. Nearly all semitic and SSA in the Portuguese is so ancient it's not even worth discussing - Mesolithic and Neolithic migrations. No "assimilation" to speak of. Study some population genetics, please.

The huge majority of black and MENA slaves brought in to Lisbon and Faro were exported to other European ports (e.g., Liverpool, Rotterdam) or the New World.

[Damião de Góis]

I am not saying they were never consider foreigners I am saying that as they and their children assimilated into Portuguese society becoming Portuguese, becoming part of the "native" Portuguese we speak of today to juxtapose against the "foreign" Portuguese born minorities.

That's where ours opinions differ.

[Anthropologique]

So you are saying the descendants of long ago assimilated ethnic and racial groups who are now perceived as native Portuguese are in fact not Portuguese and that they or there ancestors for the past 1 to 3 centuries were never and have never been perceived as native Portuguese even as intermarriage decreased rather than increased their number?

Yes.

Portuguese very seldom intermarry with other races. There are unions between Portuguese and other Euros, of course. "Native", depending on context, can be a somewhat Gordian term but, for Portugal, the category does not include persons with extra-Euro admixture. Take Cristiano Ronaldo, for example, he is 1 / 8 Cape Verdean and not considered an autochthonous Portuguese. The same applies to people like Rio Ferdinand of the U.K. No English person would view him as genetically native to England.

[KidMulat]

What assimilation. Nearly all semitic and SSA in the Portuguese is so ancient it's not even worth discussing - Mesolithic and Neolithic migrations. No "assimilation" to speak of. Study some population genetics, please.

The huge majority of black and MENA slaves brought in to Lisbon and Faro were exported to other European ports (e.g., Liverpool, Rotterdam) or the New World.

I refuse to get into the territory of "Portuguese are/aren't white" I don't care about that, suffice to say the population of Africans where not only slaves are were a hodgepodge of Black Ladino free and freedmen, Jewish Coversos were never slaves and assimilated, as to did many of former Muslims not expulsed in the 1490's and 1500's they did not merely disappear.

I am not saying all Portuguese are these things but that these strains do exist in certain communities that are inhabited by what are called native Portuguese giving precedent that it can happen again.

Also you can disagree but what's with the constant thumbs down your pressing it like your life depended on it.

[Anthropologique]

I refuse to get into the territory of "Portuguese are/aren't white" I don't care about that, suffice to say the population of Africans where not only slaves are were a hodgepodge of Black Ladino free and freedmen, Jewish Coversos were never slaves and assimilated, as to did many of former Muslims not expulsed in the 1490's and 1500's they did not merely disappear.

I am not saying all Portuguese are these things but that these strains do exist in certain communities that are inhabited by what are called native Portuguese giving precedent that it can happen again.

Also you can disagree but what's with the constant thumbs down your pressing it like your life depended on it.

The latest population genetics studies haver spoken clearly on this. There is no recent impact of SSA or MENA in Portugal. Why do you think that the NATIVE Portuguese population is so homogenous - all recent influences are European.

[KidMulat]

The latest population genetics studies haver spoken clearly on this. There is no recent impact of SSA or MENA in Portugal. Why do you think that the NATIVE Portuguese population is so homogenous - all recent influences are European.

Autosomal dna does not slice evenly over an extended period of time; someone with a minority amount of SSA and MENA ancestors 500 to 300 years ago won't show up you and I both know that.

[Anthropologique]

I refuse to get into the territory of "Portuguese are/aren't white" I don't care about that, suffice to say the population of Africans where not only slaves are were a hodgepodge of Black Ladino free and freedmen, Jewish Coversos were never slaves and assimilated, as to did many of former Muslims not expulsed in the 1490's and 1500's they did not merely disappear.

I am not saying all Portuguese are these things but that these strains do exist in certain communities that are inhabited by what are called native Portuguese giving precedent that it can happen again.

Also you can disagree but what's with the constant thumbs down your pressing it like your life depended on it.

Many of the so-called Conversos found their way to places like Holland. Other Jews fled to the NE and pretty much kept to themselves. The blacks and mulattos were confined to a few little communities in the south, like a sliver of territory in Alcacer do Sal, as an example, and many migrated to N. Africa eventually.

Believe me, the occurrences of native Portuguese mixing with non-Euros in Portugal was / is rare. So rare that it doesn't merit discussion.

[KidMulat]

Many of the so-called Conversos found their way to places like Holland. Other Jews fled to the NE and pretty much kept to themselves. The blacks and mulattos were confined to a few little communities in the south, like a sliver of territory in Alcacer do Sal, as an example, and many migrated to N. Africa eventually.

Believe me, the occurrences of native Portuguese mixing with non-Euros in Portugal was / is rare. So rare that it doesn't merit discussion.

To me a couple to few hundred do merit discussion as it is applicable to my original statement

[Anthropologique]

Autosomal dna does not slice evenly over an extended period of time; someone with a minority amount of SSA and MENA ancestors 500 to 300 years ago won't show up you and I both know that.

Practically all SSA in Portugal - actually all Europe - is ancient (Mesolithic and Neolithic). Many thousands of years.

[KidMulat]

Practically all SSA in Portugal - actually all Europe - is ancient (Mesolithic and Neolithic). Many thousands of years.
Well yeah no one here is denying that; I was not talking about the overall composition of Portuguese people I was talking about the cultural mechanisms around the assimilation of those communities with remaining SSA and MENA populations and their place as augmenters of Portuguese Identity.

[Damião de Góis]

I was talking about the cultural mechanisms around the assimilation of those communities with remaining SSA and MENA populations and their place as augmenters of Portuguese Identity.

They have no place in the portuguese identity. Only if they were born in the country, speak the language, have portuguese surnames and cluster genetically here where it says PT:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/article_images/200890221.jpg

If not, then they are not portuguese.

[KidMulat]

They have no place in the portuguese identity. Only if they were born in the country, speak the language, have portuguese surnames and cluster genetically here where it says PT:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/article_images/200890221.jpg

If not, then they are not portuguese.

Tell that to the native Portuguese who descend from them

[Damião de Góis]

Tell that to the native Portuguese who descend from them

They already know.

[KidMulat]

They already know.

Okay :thumb001:

[Eurokat]

The Portuguese hypocrisy is nauseating. They are brutal to people like Elisabete who is genetically half ethnic Portuguese and born and raised there just because she is deemed not pretty enough. In the same breath they fight tooth and nail to claim a naturalized citizen because he's doing something to make them look good.

Elisabeth can't just float in the ocean because her mother is Venezuelan. She is Portuguese.

[Anthropologique]

Well yeah no one here is denying that; I was not talking about the overall composition of Portuguese people I was talking about the cultural mechanisms around the assimilation of those communities with remaining SSA and MENA populations and their place as augmenters of Portuguese Identity.


Your perspective is off. Nothing outside of native Portuguese / native Euro is part of Portuguese identity. Portuguese identity is purely a combination of Celtic, Ancient Iberian & pan-Romance components and that is how the Portuguese and, in basic form, the rest of Europe see things.

[KidMulat]

Your perspective is off. Nothing outside of native Portuguese / native Euro is part of Portuguese identity. Portuguese identity is purely a combination of Celtic, Ancient Iberian & pan-Romance components and that is how the Portuguese and, in basic form, the rest of Europe see things.

Yet not one page before you conceded to the fact that more than a few communities retained black and Jewish families who assimilated into broader Portuguese society


:-/

[Damião de Góis]

The Portuguese hypocrisy is nauseating. They are brutal to people like Elisabete who is genetically half ethnic Portuguese and born and raised there just because she is deemed not pretty enough. In the same breath they fight tooth and nail to claim a naturalized citizen because he's doing something to make them look good.

Elisabeth can't just float in the ocean because her mother is Venezuelan. She is Portuguese.

I'm not denying her citizenship and rights. I'm just saying she isn't ethnic portuguese.
As for claiming naturalized citizens, who do you have in mind? I'm against all naturalized athletes.

[Anthropologique]

Yet not one page before you conceded to the fact that more than a few communities retained black and Jewish families who assimilated into broader Portuguese society


:-/

The black / mulatto communities worth any consideration in Portugal were isolated and had limited contact with the general population. I provided an example; a small section of Alcacer do Sal. Most blacks did not remain in Portugal. FWI, at zenith, the black slave / servant population was ~ 1.5% (just about all in Lisbon and the south). The majority of (any) slaves that made it to Portugal were trans-shipped outside the country.

A small number of Jews "assimilated" in to native families, that's about it.

The problem is that you lack knowledge concerning Portuguese social psychology and habitus. No further dialog required on this topic.

[KidMulat]

The black / mulatto communities worth any consideration in Portugal were isolated and had limited contact with the general population. I provided an example; a small section of Alcacer do Sal. Most blacks did not remain in Portugal. FWI, at zenith, the black slave / servant population was ~ 1.5% (just about all in Lisbon and the south). The majority of (any) slaves that made it to Portugal were trans-shipped outside the country.

A small number of Jews "assimilated" in to native families, that's about it.

The problem is that you lack knowledge concerning Portuguese social psychology and habitus. No further dialog required on this topic.
Actually the processes of assimilation, social/cultural/personal identity fall into similar lines across the world

Luckly for me being in a city with so many esteemed teachers and access to books regarding the study of the Subaltern and dissertations by a number of PHDs including a David Wheat of Vanderbilt University whose dissertation of Portuguese-Spanish Joint Crown era Identity in the New and Old World at my fingertips can say quite readily there is much more to discuss on the topic.

However if you choose to desist that is fine, its not about winning or losing its just a matter of acknowledging the reality of records or not :D

[Gaijin]

No one would ever consider an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant living in England to be English, so why would anyone consider an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant living in Portugal to be Portuguese?

"A Portuguese is a descendant of a Portuguese. If a dog was born in an hennery, it wouldn't make it a chicken. A dog is a dog, wherever it may born." - José Pinto Coelho.

[Eurokat]

I'm not denying her citizenship and rights. I'm just saying she isn't ethnic portuguese.
As for claiming naturalized citizens, who do you have in mind? I'm against all naturalized athletes.

She is half ethnic Portuguese. If your country decides to deny people who are half Portuguese cultural rights such as participating on pageants it's fine but don't be selective. The half Greek girl is ok but the half Venezuelan is not. Very backward mentality. You people are pretty much telling Portuguese citizens that if they decide to marry a non Portuguese depending on what country their spouse is from their children may or may not be ostracized.

[KidMulat]

No one would ever consider an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant living in England to be English, so why would anyone consider an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant living in Portugal to be Portuguese?

"A Portuguese is a descendant of a Portuguese. If a dog was born in an hennery, it wouldn't make it a chicken. A dog is a dog, wherever it may born." - José Pinto Coelho.



http://www.yorkshiremuseum.org.uk/Page/ViewCollection.aspx?CollectionId=26 she was around before England was England but hey wouldn't doubt that she left descendants
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070124-british-genes.html
Same with this negro man

But again I can see what you mean, but the countries have two different histories.

[Damião de Góis]

She is half ethnic Portuguese. If your country decides to deny people who are half Portuguese cultural rights such as participating on pageants it's fine but don't be selective. The half Greek girl is ok but the half Venezuelan is not. Very backward mentality. You people are pretty much telling Portuguese citizens that if they decide to marry a non Portuguese depending on what country their spouse is from their children may or may not be ostracized.

Says who, and which half greek girl do you mean? In any case, the half greek wouldn't be ethnic portuguese either. Who here is making distinctions?

[Anthropologique]

Actually the processes of assimilation, social/cultural/personal identity fall into similar lines across the world

Luckly for me being in a city with so many esteemed teachers and access to books regarding the study of the Subaltern and dissertations by a number of PHDs including a David Wheat of Vanderbilt University whose dissertation of Portuguese-Spanish Joint Crown era Identity in the New and Old World at my fingertips can say quite readily there is much more to discuss on the topic.

However if you choose to desist that is fine, its not about winning or losing its just a matter of acknowledging the reality of records or not :D

The Portuguese know their identity components quite well: Atlantic Celtic in great part, with some Romance facets, that is the way native Portuguese identify. And such has been equilibrated for many hundreds of years in the Portuguese habitus. Ethnic identity is NOT what some outsider (incorrectly) states, it's what the community constructs intersubjectively and diachronically. Can't force something that's not there, Mulat.

Read well the history - from reliable sources - of Portugal and the Portuguese and read well the most recent population genetics material on Iberia.

[Anthropologique]

No one would ever consider an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant living in England to be English, so why would anyone consider an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant living in Portugal to be Portuguese?

"A Portuguese is a descendant of a Portuguese. If a dog was born in an hennery, it wouldn't make it a chicken. A dog is a dog, wherever it may born." - José Pinto Coelho.

Of course. Quite interesting that some people want desperately to attach population group labels that do not belong.

[KidMulat]

The Portuguese know their identity components quite well: Atlantic Celtic in great part, with some Romance facets, that is the way native Portuguese identify. And such has been equilibrated for many hundreds of years in the Portuguese habitus. Ethnic identity is NOT what some outsider (incorrectly) states, it's what the community constructs intersubjectively and diachronically. Can't force something that's not there, Mulat.

Read well the history - from reliable sources - of Portugal and the Portuguese and read well the most recent population genetics material on Iberia.

I am not forcing anything I get my information from invaluable sources; I mean you do know Vanderbilt University is ranked 31st in the world in Social Science right and that the reference books speaking on the history and composition of Portugal used in phd dissertation is the basis for my understanding of Ladino/Portuguese Identity.

Doesn't get more reliable than that :)

[KidMulat]

But whatevs!

[Damião de Góis]

I am not forcing anything I get my information from invaluable sources; I mean you do know Vanderbilt University is ranked 31st in the world in Social Science right and that the reference books speaking on the history and composition of Portugal used in phd dissertation is the basis for my understanding of Ladino/Portuguese Identity.

Doesn't get more reliable than that :)

What the fuck is a Ladino supposed to be? As for the portuguese identity, i've already told you how it is determined.

[Eurokat]

But is the descendent of a Portuguese. Her father is Portuguese.

[Anthropologique]

http://www.yorkshiremuseum.org.uk/Page/ViewCollection.aspx?CollectionId=26 she was around before England was England but hey wouldn't doubt that she left descendants
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070124-british-genes.html
Same with this negro man

But again I can see what you mean, but the countries have two different histories.

Different histories? What does that signify as far as England and Portugal are concerned, with respect to an extra-Euro not being considered native. Are you implying that because of differences in history it's OK to codify mulattos and Jews as NATIVE in Portugal but not in England? :rolleyes:

What do you think the British consider the substantial mulatto community in Liverpool to be? Certainly not native English. Seriously ...

[Damião de Góis]

But is the descendent of a Portuguese. Her father is Portuguese.

I'm not against her participation in beauty pagents. We have full foreigners competing for us in sports, which is even worse. All i'm saying is that she isn't full ethnic portuguese... because it seems kidmulat here is saying she is.

In fact he is here lecturing me on my own identity.

[KidMulat]

What the fuck is a Ladino supposed to be? As for the portuguese identity, i've already told you how it is determined.

http://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-05272009-181157/unrestricted/Wheat_Dissertation.pdf
Start at pg. 188


Although if you have access to the source materials I would highly recommend it, this can seem disjointed if you don't understand the greater context of Jews and Ssa in early modern era Atlantic.

[Anthropologique]

I am not forcing anything I get my information from invaluable sources; I mean you do know Vanderbilt University is ranked 31st in the world in Social Science right and that the reference books speaking on the history and composition of Portugal used in phd dissertation is the basis for my understanding of Ladino/Portuguese Identity.

Doesn't get more reliable than that :)

Ladino / Judeo Portuguese identity does not apply to European Portuguese. LMAO. Vanderbilt is an excellent institution but it clearly has nothing over Columbia and Brown, where I received my degrees from. In fact, Brown has one of the very best Portuguese studies programs in the world.

BTW, most reasonable people could give two craps about university rankings.

[Eurokat]

Says who, and which half greek girl do you mean? In any case, the half greek wouldn't be ethnic portuguese either. Who here is making distinctions?

The new Miss Portugal is half Greek.

Anthropologique is also not ethnic Portuguese according to your definition?

[Damião de Góis]

http://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-05272009-181157/unrestricted/Wheat_Dissertation.pdf
Start at pg. 188


Although if you have access to the source materials I would highly recommend it, this can seem disjointed if you don't understand the greater context of Jews and Ssa in early modern era Atlantic.

I've read plenty of portuguese books about our history, written by portuguese historians. A book written by foreigners about us will always be inaccurate.

In any case, i know about the Atlantic-Slave trade. However, slaves and whoever never made it into the portuguese ethnicity. They would fail the test:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81770-Miss-World-Portugal-2013-Miss-Elisabete-Rodrigues&p=1946034&viewfull=1#post1946034

[Damião de Góis]

The new Miss Portugal is half Greek.

Okay, same thing then... not ethnic portuguese.


Anthropologique is also not ethnic Portuguese according to your definition?

Of course not.

[KidMulat]

Different histories? What does that signify as far as England and Portugal are concerned, with respect to an extra-Euro not being considered native. Are you implying that because of differences in history it's OK to codify mulattos and Jews as NATIVE in Portugal but not in England? :rolleyes:

What do you think the British consider the substantial mulatto community in Liverpool to be? Certainly not native English. Seriously ...

The level of migration is such that other than York I was unable to verify any communities of non-Celt, Norman, Germanic people; they are native or atleast eventually became native however one or two individuals (one of whom existing before the unification of England) does not shift the meaning of what makes a given nation's citizen body.

I would say I would like to know more about the Liverpool community but it seems only one man was a part of it and his descendants were rather ignorant to this particular forebearer.

[Anthropologique]

http://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-05272009-181157/unrestricted/Wheat_Dissertation.pdf
Start at pg. 188


Although if you have access to the source materials I would highly recommend it, this can seem disjointed if you don't understand the greater context of Jews and Ssa in early modern era Atlantic.

Stop already. You know quite well that there is no Jewish identity in Portugal, save those tiny numbers of Sephardics that practice their religion in secret. Seriously.

[KidMulat]

I've read plenty of portuguese books about our history, written by portuguese historians. A book written by foreigners about us will always be inaccurate.

In any case, i know about the Atlantic-Slave trade. However, slaves and whoever never made it into the portuguese ethnicity. They would fail the test:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81770-Miss-World-Portugal-2013-Miss-Elisabete-Rodrigues&p=1946034&viewfull=1#post1946034

Again you did not read the source material and are choosing not to delve deeper into this, if you choose to that is fine but you are not understanding the bridging Wheat is doing between the development of ladinos in Portugal and Spain and the development of Ladino communities in the New World.

Merely because you refuse to read does not make your argument so.

[KidMulat]

Stop already. You know quite well that there is no Jewish identity in Portugal, save those tiny numbers of Sephardics that practice their religion in secret. Seriously.

Ofcourse there was no continuing Jewish identity I never claimed such; the conversos who actually converted to Catholicism assimilated into broader Portuguese society. Seriously, now your just reacting.

[Anthropologique]

The level of migration is such that other than York I was unable to verify any communities of non-Celt, Norman, Germanic people; they are native or atleast eventually became native however one or two individuals (one of whom existing before the unification of England) does not shift the meaning of what makes a given nation's citizen body.

I would say I would like to know more about the Liverpool community but it seems only one man was a part of it and his descendants were rather ignorant to this particular forebearer.

One man was part of it? And how about the recent (several hundred of years worth) race mixing that's occurred.:picard1:

Read Brown: Weighing Anchor Setting Sail (2005). She's a highly respected social anthropologist.

[KidMulat]

Ladino / Judeo Portuguese identity does not apply to European Portuguese. LMAO. Vanderbilt is an excellent institution but it clearly has nothing over Columbia and Brown, where I received my degrees from. In fact, Brown has one of the very best Portuguese studies programs in the world.

BTW, most reasonable people could give two craps about university rankings.

Ladino takes on multiple meanings like the word Creole and yes it does apply read some of the source material.

[FrostDragon]

She doesn't look European...

[Eurokat]

Stop already. You know quite well that there is no Jewish identity in Portugal, save those tiny numbers of Sephardics that practice their religion in secret. Seriously.

Did you know you are not ethnic Portuguese?

[Damião de Góis]

Again you did not read the source material and are choosing not to delve deeper into this, if you choose to that is fine but you are not understanding the bridging Wheat is doing between the development of ladinos in Portugal and Spain and the development of Ladino communities in the New World.

Merely because you refuse to read does not make your argument so.

Afro-portuguese adventures in the caribean don't interest me, so i'm not gonna read it. I thought this was about the portuguese ethnicity. Also as i've told you, i don't know what a Ladino is.. i'm hearing this term for the first time... so i'm skeptical of any bridge.

[Anthropologique]

Ofcourse there was no continuing Jewish identity I never claimed such; the conversos who actually converted to Catholicism assimilated into broader Portuguese society. Seriously, now your just reacting.

This is about who is a native Portuguese, the equilibrated ethnic components of the ethnicity and ethnic identity. Applying Ladino in the context of what we are discussing makes no sense. Ladino has nothing to do with the Portuguese identity or genome.

[KidMulat]

One man was part of it? And how about the recent (several hundred of years worth) race mixing that's occurred.:picard1:

Read Brown: Weighing Anchor Setting Sail (2005). She's a highly respected social anthropologist.

This is what I was trying to avoid; I do not care about race mixing I do not care about purity I am talking about the inclusionary tactics used in the creation of reformed ideas of self in the Nation State.

One person assimilating into a community is powerful on a local level but multiple communities and groups over a extended period of time shifts at a level that one man cannot.

[Anthropologique]

She doesn't look European...

Of course not.

[Eurokat]

This is about who is a native Portuguese, the equilibrated ethnic components of the ethnicity and ethnic identity. Applying Ladino in the context of what we are discussing makes no sense. Ladino has nothing to do with the Portuguese identity or genome.

Like you, some Ladinos were half ethnic Portuguese. So yes they do.

[KidMulat]

Afro-portuguese adventures in the caribean don't interest me, so i'm not gonna read it. I thought this was about the portuguese ethnicity. Also as i've told you, i don't know what a Ladino is.. i'm hearing this term for the first time... so i'm skeptical of any bridge.

You didn't even read it or the source material; its like you asked for an explanation I gave you one which includes the titles of source material and then you say you don't agree, it does not apply and you will not read it.

Argue for arguing sake all you like but it doesn't make it so.

[FrostDragon]

Of course not.

Is she really Portuguese?

[Eurokat]

Of course not.

She is at the least 70% European. So unfortunately the only place in the old world for her is Europe. She certainly looks farther from ethnic Africans.

[Eurokat]

Is she really Portuguese?
Her father is Portuguese and her mother Venezuelan.She was born and raised in Portugal.

[Damião de Góis]

You didn't even read it or the source material; its like you asked for an explanation I gave you one which includes the titles of source material and then you say you don't agree, it does not apply and you will not read it.

Argue for arguing sake all you like but it doesn't make it so.

Sorry, but i don't take lessons from foreigners about my own identity. Go take your Ladinos somewhere else because people don't even know about them here.
Also it's good that we have genetics now and the portuguese cluster is very easy to identify. Whoever claims to be portuguese but doesn't cluster there fails the ultimate test, which is the blood test.

[Anthropologique]

This is what I was trying to avoid; I do not care about race mixing I do not care about purity I am talking about the inclusionary tactics used in the creation of reformed ideas of self in the Nation State.

One person assimilating into a community is powerful on a local level but multiple communities and groups over a extended period of time shifts at a level that one man cannot.

READ WHAT I WROTE - A socio-ethnic identity cannot be assigned or attached, nor can it be something that involves identifications latticed in some ethno sub grouping. A particular ethnic identity is constructed diachronically through socio-cultural interactive processes, which become part of a community's habitus. A Ladino identity is not a NATIVE Portuguese identity.

You are trying much too hard to apply labels. Read and go to Liverpool ... while you are it, visit Bristol and Cardiff. Blacks / mulattos have been in those towns for hundreds of years and, of course, are not considered native English or Welsh.

[Anthropologique]

Is she really Portuguese?

Not racially Portuguese. She's mixed.

[Eurokat]

Sorry, but i don't take lessons from foreigners about my own identity. Go take your Ladinos somewhere else because people don't even know about them here.
Also it's good that we have genetics now and the portuguese cluster is very easy to identify. Whoever claims to be portuguese but doesn't cluster there fails the ultimate test, which is the blood test.

She would cluster closer to Portugal more so than any of her other 2 components. So what ethnicity would you give her?

[KidMulat]

Sorry, but i don't take lessons from foreigners about my own identity. Go take your Ladinos somewhere else because people don't even know about them here.
Also it's good that we have genetics now and the portuguese cluster is very easy to identify. Whoever claims to be portuguese but doesn't cluster there fails the ultimate test, which is the blood test.

Yes because merely the fact that my source material is overwhelmingly Portuguese origin is not enough and your counter of my foreigness as a valid argument to my sources even as you post information made by two British anthropologists in the 19th century who studied Azorean people: but I guess they are fine so long as their findings agree with yours :rolleyes:

No one is talking about clustering or genetics, your totally so used to defending Portuguese "complete" European heritage your totally taking what I am saying as a challenge to it. I am not surprised but still your fervor is blinding you.

[Eurokat]

"mixed" is not a race. Her race is probably 70% Portuguese and the rest devided btwn ssa and native.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes because merely the fact that my source material is overwhelmingly Portuguese origin is not enough and your counter of my foreigness as a valid argument to my sources even as you post information made by two British anthropologists in the 19th century who studied Azorean people: but I guess they are fine so long as their findings agree with yours :rolleyes:

I posted British what?


No one is talking about clustering or genetics, your totally so used to defending Portuguese "complete" European heritage your totally taking what I am saying as a challenge to it. I am not surprised but still your fervor is blinding you.

So what are you talking about? Genetics is an important part of how an ethnicity is defined.

[FrostDragon]

Not racially Portuguese. She's mixed.

She does seem to have Amerindian ancestry...

[KidMulat]

READ WHAT I WROTE - A socio-ethnic identity cannot be assigned or attached, nor can it be something that involves identifications latticed in some ethno sub grouping. A particular ethnic identity is constructed diachronically through socio-cultural interactive processes, which become part of a community's habitus. A Ladino identity is not a NATIVE Portuguese identity.

You are trying much too hard to apply labels. Read and go to Liverpool ... while you are it, visit Bristol and Cardiff. Blacks have been in those towns for hundreds of years and, of course, are not considered native English or Welsh.

I see the misunderstanding; I am saying the ladino identity was the foundation for later assimilation into native Portuguese communities and that they themselves are not native but their descendants became part of the fabric of native Portuguese identity.

What I mean by that is not that their in this case SSA heritage became a part of the origins list of people that make Portuguese Portuguese but rather, their identity does in fact shift from foreigner to foreign origin to being of the nation by processes as I said earlier of conscious and unconscious erasure of perceived and/or self perceived notions of otherness which solidified in the case of SSA during the main period of Portuguese Empirial expansion but that the process had already come in play many times before including the time period after the Expulsion with the remaining population of former Jews.

Other than that I think we are in to different schools of thought surrounding the formation of group identity which is understandable yet I still disagree which is fine by me.

[Anthropologique]

Yes because merely the fact that my source material is overwhelmingly Portuguese origin is not enough and your counter of my foreigness as a valid argument to my sources even as you post information made by two British anthropologists in the 19th century who studied Azorean people: but I guess they are fine so long as their findings agree with yours :rolleyes:

No one is talking about clustering or genetics, your totally so used to defending Portuguese "complete" European heritage your totally taking what I am saying as a challenge to it. I am not surprised but still your fervor is blinding you.

None of what you are presenting has to do with INDIGENOUS Portuguese identity. Identity CANNOT BE ASSIGNED OR ATTACHED, rather, it's a lengthy, complex socio-cultural process.

What Wheat or any other academic, Portuguese to Eskimo, can only investigate an identity for what it is - how the natives perceive themselves ethnically, not what he / she thinks it should be. New World identities are not applicable to native Portuguese identities.

[KidMulat]

I posted British what?



So what are you talking about? Genetics is an important part of how an ethnicity is defined.

On your blog of visiting Anthropologist speaking on the character and general build/look of Azoreans in the 19th century

Genetics is far from perfect recombination through the generations can't possible account for all ancestors; DNA without context to population migration and demographic information give an imperfect view of the past even if it fits well for most people.

[Damião de Góis]

On your blog of visiting Anthropologist speaking on the character and general build/look of Azoreans in the 19th century

My blog? Why don't you link me to my blog, which i don't have but i'm curious to see anyway?


Genetics is far from perfect recombination through the generations can't possible account for all ancestors; DNA without context to population migration and demographic information give an imperfect view of the past even if it fits well for most people.

As i've said it's not just genetics: place of birth, language, surnames, and clustering position. With these things i can tell who is and who isn't portuguese... and i'm afraid your Ladinos would not pass the test.

[Anthropologique]

I see the misunderstanding; I am saying the ladino identity was the foundation for later assimilation into native Portuguese communities and that they themselves are not native but their descendants became part of the fabric of native Portuguese identity.

What I mean by that is not that their in this case SSA heritage became a part of the origins list of people that make Portuguese Portuguese but rather, their identity does in fact shift from foreigner to foreign origin to being of the nation by processes as I said earlier of conscious and unconscious erasure of perceived and/or self perceived notions of otherness which solidified in the case of SSA during the main period of Portuguese Empirial expansion but that the process had already come in play many times before including the time period after the Expulsion with the remaining population of former Jews.

Other than that I think we are in to different schools of thought surrounding the formation of group identity which is understandable yet I still disagree which is fine by me.

I can assure you that "Ladino" does not comprise an element of NATIVE Portuguese identity. Nothing extra-Euro does. Anthropologists, sociologists, and psychologists generally hold the same opinions I do on ethnic identity and it's construction.

"Otherness" continues to exist in Portugal, as it does in much of Europe - good or bad, it's a primal phenomenon that does not disappear magically one day. Again you are trying much too hard ... square peg in a round hole.

[Anthropologique]

My blog? Why don't you link me to my blog, which i don't have but i'm curious to see anyway?



As i've said it's not just genetics: place of birth, language, surnames, and clustering position. With these things i can tell who is and who isn't portuguese... and i'm afraid your Ladinos would not pass the test.

The blog belongs to Atlantic Islander.

[KidMulat]

None of what you are presenting has to do with INDIGENOUS Portuguese identity. Identity CANNOT BE ASSIGNED OR ATTACHED, rather, it's a lengthy, complex socio-cultural process.

What Wheat or any other academic, Portuguese to Eskimo, can only investigate an identity for what it is - how the natives perceive themselves ethnically, not what he / she thinks it should be. New World identities are not applicable to native Portuguese identities.

Note

First I have not assigned any descriptor with origins in the New World

Secondly I never mentioned the word indigenous purposely I might add mostly because those original groups were not in Portugal as Portugal did not formerly exist until after the Reconquista.

Third and lastly what is a complex socio-cultural process than the creation of a fictive kinship based around a shared identity and the creation of an Other; tossing around such a phrase is dehumanizing the very real basis of human group dynamic which is based on the assigning of words to describe those within and outside of said group.

[KidMulat]

The blog belongs to Atlantic Islander.

Apologies then the "A" names confused me :-P

[Anthropologique]

On your blog of visiting Anthropologist speaking on the character and general build/look of Azoreans in the 19th century

Genetics is far from perfect recombination through the generations can't possible account for all ancestors; DNA without context to population migration and demographic information give an imperfect view of the past even if it fits well for most people.


Autosomal DNA provides a full heritage map. That's what you go by. The architecture of identity is more influenced by ones ethnic and social history. DNA results simply buttress such.

[Anthropologique]

Note

First I have not assigned any descriptor with origins in the New World

Secondly I never mentioned the word indigenous purposely I might add mostly because those original groups were not in Portugal as Portugal did not formerly exist until after the Reconquista.

Third and lastly what is a complex socio-cultural process than the creation of a fictive kinship based around a shared identity and the creation of an Other; tossing around such a phrase is dehumanizing the very real basis of human group dynamic which is based on the assigning of words to describe those within and outside of said group.

Portugal as Portus Calus (Port of Wales, I believe) existed as a separate geographic entity well before the Reconquista ... way back.

BTW, the "Other" is always "out there" in some manner. Out in social space, waiting for activation - through cultural activity, movements within discourse, etc.

[KidMulat]

Portugal as Portus Calus (Port of Wales, I believe) existed as a separate geographic entity well before the Reconquista ... way back.

Portugal as a unified political body continuously; I am not talking about a period of self agency.

[KidMulat]

Autosomal DNA provides a full heritage map. That's what you go by. The architecture of identity is more influenced by ones ethnic and social history. DNA results simply buttress such.

No it does not recombination of DNA every single time a child is born can and often remove parts of the DNA signifying a particular relatable group. Just because your great grandmother was X doesn't mean your autosomal scores will read 1/8 X it may not even show up at all. That is a limit DNA hasn't been able to work out yet

[Damião de Góis]

Portugal as Portus Calus (Port of Wales, I believe) existed as a separate geographic entity well before the Reconquista ... way back.

BTW, the "Other" is always "out there" in some manner. Out in social space, waiting for activation - through cultural activity, movements within discourse, etc.

No, Portugal doesn't exist in any kind of way before the Reconquista.

And "Port of Wales"? Definitely not.

[Anthropologique]

No it does not recombination of DNA every single time a child is born can and often remove parts of the DNA signifying a particular relatable group. Just because your great grandmother was X doesn't mean your autosomal scores will read 1/8 X it may not even show up at all. That is a limit DNA hasn't been able to work out yet

We are speaking in foundational terms. Realistically that's all you need - foundational information. Who cares if my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandmother was 1 / 16th Polish. Come on ...

[Anthropologique]

No, Portugal doesn't exist in any kind of way before the Reconquista.

And "Port of Wales"? Definitely not.

Portus Calus was the city of Porto (today).

[KidMulat]

We are speaking in foundational terms. Realistically that's all you need - foundational information. Who cares if my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandmother was 1 / 16th Polish. Come on ...

Disagree

[Anthropologique]

Disagree

On what grounds?

[KidMulat]

On what grounds?

Simply because its still apart of you, even if its a minor part of you it's still worth delving into.

[Gaijin]

Quite frankly, I don't understand what is your purpose here, outsider.

I know you Americans read everything in English, and ignore the writings of the actual historians and anthropologists of a country.
So, for you to attain a genuine panorama of a country, it would be very much impossible, since you are reading your own letters.

Foreign historians don't symbolize anything in this country, where they toast writings, re-enact actions and adulterate facts to elevate themselves and downgrade others.
What is in English characters, written by the people of the new world, contradicts everything that was written by the elder Historians of the place of origin.
And given America's 19th century political nature, your calumnious text is not so light-minded.

Perhaps it's time you start learning new languages.

João Leal, a Portuguese Anthropologist of Portuguese Anthropology concluded that the indigenous background of the Portuguese was not disturbed, since the Neolithic.
The genetic patrimonial have thus been preserved ever since.

The Romans arrived, but the only thing they left was the language and religion.
The Visigoths and Swabians settled in the South and North respectively, but the only thing they left was the Aristocracy.
The Moors and Jews finally arrived, but were eventually expelled during the Reconquista.

The Portuguese have been homgenous ever since.
If they weren't, then they would have been an heterogenous bunch.

João Leal states:
"Either Pre-Celts or Celts, the Lusitanians are by exelence the rightfully ancestors of the Portuguese."
- Etnografias Portuguesas (http://run.unl.pt/bitstream/10362/4339/1/Etnografi...pdf)

Below is an emblematic Portuguese woman, whose national typical phenotype for a female looks more or less like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s6Agpeve7ow/TAb5GNSMW-I/AAAAAAAABiQ/opFjUNHKQFM/s400/lucia-moniz-7a3b.jpg

The external audience, from places like America, or whatever, may consider Elisabte Rodrigues to be Portuguese, but she wouldn't be seen as one by the actual people of Portugal.

No need to project your pro-mixing views, onto other people, just so you can replace your self lack of securities.
I'm not being racist. Just pointing out the facts.

[Anthropologique]

Simply because its still apart of you, even if its a minor part of you it's still worth delving into.

But you are, at foundation, dealing with cultural trivia, aren't you? Things pertaining to "Ladino", for instance, bear no essential connection to the core structures of NATIVE Portuguese ethnicity and racial, social and cultural identification. Colonial culture and diaspora of non-native elements do not form part of the identity equation.

Logico-mathmatically we can reduce the notion of ethnic identity to what the genetic and socio-cultural substrata of a particular population group contains and the diachronic experiential refinement of such components.

[King Claus]

CONGONESE?

[Anthropologique]

Reduced negroidess.

[KidMulat]

But you are, at foundation, dealing with cultural trivia, aren't you? Things pertaining to "Ladino", for instance, bear no essential connection to the core structures of NATIVE Portuguese ethnicity and racial, social and cultural identification. Colonial culture and diaspora of non-native elements do not form part of the identity equation.

Logico-mathmatically we can reduce the notion of ethnic identity to what the genetic and socio-cultural substrata of a particular population group contains and the diachronic experiential refinement of such components.

Ladino by its very origin is the very core construction of native Iberian cultural norms and standards; a system that on a formal and informal level was used to demarcate those who could and would see themselves and by others as people of the Joint Crown.

Ladinos existed before the first ships went out to the New World. They in fact were among the sailors who left with Vespucci and Columbus as they were by then a Maritime people of the Eastern Atlantic interface containing the Ibero-Judeo-Macronesian-Senegambian cultural complex .

Ethnicity is very much a political construction; what is English or British identity but a supre-identity of formally conquered chiefdoms, petty kingdoms and clans based not on shared genetics or similarity in culture but of a conquered and subjugated people appropriating the ideals of citizenry espoused by the upperclass.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Simply because its still apart of you, even if its a minor part of you it's still worth delving into.

Going back that far you probably have no actual DNA from that person. Everyone in europe can trace back to charlemagne but it doesn't mean they got any of his genius. Hell I can trace back to one of the great geniuses in the world and everyone here does nothing but call me an idiot :lol:

[KidMulat]

Going back that far you probably have no actual DNA from that person. Everyone in europe can trace back to charlemagne but it doesn't mean they got any of his genius. Hell I can trace back to one of the great geniuses in the world and everyone here does nothing but call me an idiot :lol:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/e72f50101945e0108ba874e3a14ea9a6/tumblr_mf4u7oocyh1rknrf9o1_500.gif

[B01AB20]

Ladino by its very origin is the very core construction of native Iberian cultural norms and standards; a system that on a formal and informal level was used to demarcate those who could and would see themselves and by others as people of the Joint Crown.

'ladino' is a kind of dialect of spanish which was spoken somewhere in central america in XIX century... no?


Ladinos existed before the first ships went out to the New World. They in fact were among the sailors who left with Vespucci and Columbus as they were by then a Maritime people of the Eastern Atlantic interface containing the Ibero-Judeo-Macronesian-Senegambian cultural complex .

you're american no?, OK then. :) , but you've forgotten to include star trek in that 'cultural complex'.

and what the hell is 'macronesian' in that context, maybe you wanted to say 'mayonesa' instead.

[KidMulat]

'ladino' is a kind of dialect of spanish which was spoken somewhere in central america in XIX century... no?



you're american no?, OK then. :) , but you've forgotten to include star trek in that 'cultural complex'.

and what the hell is 'macronesian' in that context, maybe you wanted to say 'mayonesa' instead.
Your on a computer look it up.

[B01AB20]

Your on a computer look it up.

at your command sir...


The Ladino people are a mix of mestizo or hispanicized peoples[1] in Latin America, principally in Central America. The demonym Ladino is Spanish, deriving from "latino" and came into use during the colonial era to refer to the Spanish-speaking population that did not belong to the colonial elite of Peninsulares or Criollos, nor to the indigenous peoples.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_people

I have no doubts you confused macronesia instead of mayonesa, no need for more answers about that 'cuestion'.

[KidMulat]

at your command sir...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_people

I have no doubts you confused macronesia instead of mayonesa, no need for more answers about that 'cuestion'.
Black Ladinos were Spanish-speaking black Africans exiled to the Americas after spending time[1] in Castile. They were often referred to as negros ladinos ("cultivated" or "latinized Blacks"), as opposed to negros bozales (i.e., those captured in Africa). The Ladinos' skills granted them a higher price than those of bozales.[2] Those Blacks born in the Americas were negros criollos ("Creole Blacks")

Prior to the arrival of Columbus to the Americas, there were Black or Moorish Africans (there has been a very long history of moors in Europe) in the Iberian Peninsula, brought either through the Arabic slave trade, the Castilian and Portuguese or as free men assimilated into the population. After some time in the Spanish society, these slaves become Christianized and learnt Spanish. There were 50,000 Black Ladinos in Spain in the 15th century [3]



Macaronesia is a modern collective name for several groups of islands in the North Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Europe and Africa. They belong to three countries: Portugal, Spain, and Cape Verde.[1][2][3]

The name (which is occasionally misspelled "Macronesia" in analogy with Micronesia) is derived from the Greek words for "islands of the fortunate" μακάρων νῆσοι makárōn nêsoi, a term used by Ancient Greek geographers for islands to the west of the Straits of Gibraltar.


Kindly stfu if your not going to do some searches that include context to the discussion already at hand :-)

[Anthropologique]

Ladino by its very origin is the very core construction of native Iberian cultural norms and standards; a system that on a formal and informal level was used to demarcate those who could and would see themselves and by others as people of the Joint Crown.

Ladinos existed before the first ships went out to the New World. They in fact were among the sailors who left with Vespucci and Columbus as they were by then a Maritime people of the Eastern Atlantic interface containing the Ibero-Judeo-Macronesian-Senegambian cultural complex .

Ethnicity is very much a political construction; what is English or British identity but a supre-identity of formally conquered chiefdoms, petty kingdoms and clans based not on shared genetics or similarity in culture but of a conquered and subjugated people appropriating the ideals of citizenry espoused by the upperclass.


You are missing the point entirely.

Again "Ladino"- or any other element outside the socio-cultural substrata - is NOT a part of Portuguese ethnic identity and it will NEVER be. I have discussed this with great clarity, I believe. Logico-mathmatically, socially, culturally it just doesn't work. Any identity is part of a community's "forms of life" and constructed intersubjectively over time. Identity is EMERGENT from the movements in the social field which aliments a given society's epistemological cache (habitus). Can't give you the base equation due to keyboard limitations on this forum.

Give it up. You are attempting to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[Anthropologique]

Going back that far you probably have no actual DNA from that person. Everyone in europe can trace back to charlemagne but it doesn't mean they got any of his genius. Hell I can trace back to one of the great geniuses in the world and everyone here does nothing but call me an idiot :lol:


Well put. :thumb001: LMAO!!

[Damião de Góis]

Basically going to Lisbon and asking people about Ladinos would get you some strange looks, because no one knows what ladinos are.. much less being a part of portuguese identity.

I read that word for the first time on Anthro Forums. And i'm still not sure about what they are.

[Slycooper]

How to know if your Portuguese.

1. Born in Portugal
2. White
3. Have all Portuguese surnames.

[B01AB20]

Black Ladinos were Spanish-speaking black Africans exiled to the Americas after spending time[1] in Castile. They were often referred to as negros ladinos ("cultivated" or "latinized Blacks"), as opposed to negros bozales (i.e., those captured in Africa). The Ladinos' skills granted them a higher price than those of bozales.[2] Those Blacks born in the Americas were negros criollos ("Creole Blacks")

So the black ladinos were african blacks 'exiled' to the americas, and besides 'The Ladino people are a mix of mestizo or hispanicized peoples[1] in Latin America, principally in Central America.'

Anyway it seems that ladinos ended up as an american thing, not iberian.



Prior to the arrival of Columbus to the Americas, there were Black or Moorish Africans (there has been a very long history of moors in Europe) in the Iberian Peninsula, brought either through the Arabic slave trade, the Castilian and Portuguese or as free men assimilated into the population. After some time in the Spanish society, these slaves become Christianized and learnt Spanish. There were 50,000 Black Ladinos in Spain in the 15th century [3]

nice number, I wonder how they made national census in the 15th century, do your source know the make up of overall population?, it'd be interesting to know.




Macaronesia is a modern collective name for several groups of islands in the North Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Europe and Africa. They belong to three countries: Portugal, Spain, and Cape Verde.[1][2][3]

The name (which is occasionally misspelled "Macronesia" in analogy with Micronesia) is derived from the Greek words for "islands of the fortunate" μακάρων νῆσοι makárōn nêsoi, a term used by Ancient Greek geographers for islands to the west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

YOU misspelled "Macronesia" for macaronesia man, not me, I simply thought you misspelled macronesia with mayonesa, quite logical I think.



Kindly stfu if your not going to do some searches that include context to the discussion already at hand :-)

allright :(, only one more doubt I have, 'macaronesia' has something to do with 'macarroni' or not?

[KidMulat]

So the black ladinos were african blacks 'exiled' to the americas, and besides 'The Ladino people are a mix of mestizo or hispanicized peoples[1] in Latin America, principally in Central America.'

Anyway it seems that ladinos ended up as an american thing, not iberian.




YOU misspelled "Macronesia" for macaronesia man, not me, I simply thought you misspelled macronesia with mayonesa, quite logical I think.




allright :(, only one more doubt I have, 'macaronesia' has something to do with 'macarroni' or not?

Not all of them were removed just as there were Jews who remained as well. There are records that show quite a few communities remained in Portugal and Spain.

[Eurokat]

Contestants for miss Portugal(no they are not Cape Verdean):
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/287396_143622005725521_8184535_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/289496_143620872392301_789076_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/289592_143622262392162_4686397_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/290888_143622505725471_858510_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/210961_143622862392102_6385067_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/290512_143623035725418_5513776_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/288796_143623305725391_4226933_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/291084_143623542392034_662729_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/290656_143623909058664_4498054_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/288068_143624229058632_471513_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/290336_143624475725274_2020436_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/192851_143624789058576_4067350_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/289884_143625532391835_6045590_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/288564_143625075725214_5162220_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/286632_143625309058524_1800613_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/287460_143625742391814_2189946_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/290596_143621069058948_3542362_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/291120_143626005725121_4007359_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/286576_143626275725094_4618430_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/289488_143803015707420_1653611_o.jpg

[Eurokat]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/287684_143626815725040_8296260_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/290916_143627135725008_5687487_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/290656_143627442391644_2225097_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/289756_143627719058283_4797088_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/287964_143627955724926_6062966_o.jpg


https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/289041_143628232391565_1578743_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/290736_143621745725547_1336622_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/290216_143621565725565_2738149_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/210873_143621295725592_1689883_o.jpg

[Rouxinol]

^What is that? A good deal of them don't have Portuguese first names. And surnames mean they have Portuguese ancestry, not that they are absolutely Portuguese. First names such as Roxana, Sury, Mariline, Aurélie, Silvi, Bety, Tracy, Yanine and Samantha are not Portuguese first names and some of them are rather typical of Brazil and of people from former Portuguese Africa (Cape Verde included). Lol. These miss contests are a circus such is the amount of non-Portuguese contestants.

[Eurokat]

Don't be silly, so unless they are named Maria or Fatima they are not Portuguese?

[Atlantic Islander]

3. Have all Portuguese surnames.

:mad:

[Atlantic Islander]

The actual Miss República Portuguesa (https://www.facebook.com/missrepublicaportuguesa) facebook page and website. (http://www.mmrp.pt/?page=home)

[Eurokat]

Those pictures are from their actual Facebook.

[Damião de Góis]

The actual Miss República Portuguesa (https://www.facebook.com/missrepublicaportuguesa) facebook page and website. (http://www.mmrp.pt/?page=home)

My winner in 2012:

http://www.mmrp.pt/img/2012_Misses_MRP/concorrentes/2012_MissJessica_Cruz_1.jpg

Her being from my city of birth is pure coincidence :D

[Atlantic Islander]

Might as well bump this thread too.