Danes propose tunnel to Sweden

[Brännvin]

@ http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/danskar-vill-ha-tunnel-mellan-helsingborg-och-helsingor-1.950730

Danish researchers have concluded that the nearly decade-old Öresund Bridge linking Sweden and Denmark is insufficient, proposing that a tunnel also be built between the two countries to facilitate the region’s growth.

The study, led by Otto Anker Nielsen, a professor in traffic patterns with the Centre for Traffic and Transport at the Technical University of Denmark, found that building a tunnel between Helsingborg on Sweden’s west coast, and the Danish city of Helsingör, would benefit the region and relieve stress on the Öresund Bridge.

According to Anker Nielsen, a transport link between the two towns is the best solution to cope with the region's expected future growth.

“The H-H connection is profitable from both an operational and societal perspective and is therefore clearly the best solution,” he writes, according to the Sydsvenskan newspaper.

The tunnel, he argues, will reduce congestion as well as contribute to the integration of the Öresund region.

The report was carried out at the request of IBU-Öresund, a cooperative infrastructure development project between communities in both Sweden and Denmark and includes four different proposals for tunnels ranging in price from 11 billion to 19 billion kronor ($142 – 270 million).

The least expensive proposal is for a tunnel only large enough for passenger trains, while the priciest suggestion includes funds for a both a cargo and passenger rail line, as well as an additional third stretch from Helsingborg to the Danish town of Snekkersten, and then on to Helsingör.

The third stretch would have a cargo rail track, as well as a track for a high speed passenger train with direct connections to Copenhagen.

The tunnel proposals were received well by regional politicians in southern Sweden.

“Another crossing is needed. In the future even more will be transported by rail so that makes initiatives like this a must,” Jerker Swanstein, chair of Region Skåne’s governing board, told Sydsvenskan.

He hopes that a tunnel connecting Helsingborg and Helsingör will be completed sometime between 2020 and 2025, but admits there is still work to be done to convince both the Swedish and Danish governments to invest in the project.

[The Lawspeaker]

Very interesting idea. Well Denmark is the lynchpin between the Scandinavian "mainland" and Germany and the rest of Europe. And I was already wondering whether it would not be sensible to create another tunnel/ bridge in Denmark linking it to Germany.
From Puttgarden to Rødbyhavn and then on via motorway to Copenhagen and in the other direction to Northern Germany towards to nearest main motorway around.
It's already a pretty busy route, judging from the fact that I found numerous entries about people taking the ferry over the past few years.

[Brännvin]

The idea is fantastic, now it needs to define all the costs and bureaucratic issues..

Out of curiosity already exists the Öresund Bridge, it links Denmark and Sweden together for the first time since the last Ice Age..

http://i28.tinypic.com/vnml40.jpg
Cities of Malmö and Copenhagen with the Öresund Bridge

[Atlas]

A Scandinavian Channel. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

A Scandinavian Channel. :)
Indeed.. and I think that we need more of these projects here in Europe. Like from the Italian mainland to Sicily, from Hoek van Holland in the Netherlands to Harwich, UK and from Ireland to Wales.

[Albion]

It's a crap idea. So they've only just built a bridge over the last few decades and now they want to make it redundant with a tunnel. Well that was money well spent... :rolleyes2:
Why not just widen the bridge and put high speed rail between Copenhagen and Stockholm?


Indeed.. and I think that we need more of these projects here in Europe.

Agreed, but in the right places and within reason.


Like from the Italian mainland to Sicily,

A little bridge will do fine. At the narrowest point you can basically wave to the person on the opposite shore.


from Hoek van Holland in the Netherlands

Ambitious and expensive.


to Harwich, UK and from Ireland to Wales.

Linking one provincial outpost to another? I think not. Besides, Dublin to London is easy enough by ferry. To tell you the hard truth, Ireland just isn't important enough for England (yes, England) to waste that much money on a tunnel.

The channel tunnel was created and yet most people still take the ferry or plane and that just keeps the prices high and puts people off even more. I think the government should subsidise it maybe.

Oh, and Rhins of Galloway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhins_of_Galloway) to Antrim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Antrim) is the cheapest, easiest route and would link to parts of the UK.
That would link Belfast to Glasgow and could you could go from Belfast to Dublin and Glasgow to London. But that'd be pointless because Ireland's UK trade is with England, not so much Scotland and it'd be a massive detour from London to Glasgow to Belfast and finally to reach Dublin.
The North Channel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Channel_(Great_Britain_and_Ireland))is a bit of a geological nightmare for a tunnel too, a bridge would be better if it wasn't a busy shipping lane.
It's easier to just catch the ferry or plane. ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/North_Channel.png/568px-North_Channel.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Irish_Sea_tunnels.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_tunnel

[Albion]

A little bridge will do fine. At the narrowest point you can basically wave to the person on the opposite shore.


It seems that others agree...

http://www.luxique.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/strait-of-messina-italy.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Guardia-Costiera---Sicilia.jpg
Sicily looking across to Calabria

Italy revives Sicily bridge plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7928949.stm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge

[The Lawspeaker]

When it comes to Britain and the Netherlands it would perhaps be better and cheaper to come up with a kind of train ferry from let's say Hook of Holland to Harwich on a train line from let's say Amsterdam CS via Rotterdam CS to London Liverpool Street.

Like which was done between Denmark and Sweden in the old days before the bridge was build:

7071WZvXjgU

[Yaroslav]

Seems like a great idea!

[Albion]

When it comes to Britain and the Netherlands it would perhaps be better and cheaper to come up with a kind of train ferry from let's say Hook of Holland to Harwich on a train line from let's say Amsterdam CS via Rotterdam CS to London Liverpool Street.

Like which was done between Denmark and Sweden in the old days before the bridge was build:

7071WZvXjgU

I think it already exists. I'll look it up tomorrow (unless I forget), but I think some ferry companies do link up with train services. Also there are the Euro routes which take ferry crossings into account too.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think it already exists. I'll look it up tomorrow (unless I forget), but I think some ferry companies do link up with train services. Also there are the Euro routes which take ferry crossings into account too.

Not to the Netherlands. There are regular ferry services though. :)

[Albion]

Not to the Netherlands. There are regular ferry services though. :)

http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/rail-and-sail/holland/ (http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/rail-and-sail/holland/)

;) I knew I'd seen it somewhere. That's quite a reasonable prices actually, maybe that trip I've wanted to make to NL can be done on a tight budget after all. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/rail-and-sail/holland/ (http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/rail-and-sail/holland/)

;) I knew I'd seen it somewhere. That's quite a reasonable prices actually, maybe that trip I've wanted to make to NL can be done on a tight budget after all. :)

Strange. I remember going with Stena Line last year and there was no train on board. It's probably that people have to get off the train at Harwich or at Hook of Holland. The train doesn't actually board the ship. The socalled Dutchflyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutchflyer) is a boat train service but not a train ferry (there is a difference between the two).

I mean like this (in Denmark):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Jernbanef%C3%A6rge_i_Helsing%C3%B8r.jpg

We don't have that here.

[Albion]

Strange. I remember going with Stena Line last year and there was no train on board. It's probably that people have to get off the train at Harwich or at Hook of Holland. The train doesn't actually board the ship.

I mean like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Jernbanef%C3%A6rge_i_Helsing%C3%B8r.jpg

(in Denmark).

We don't have that here.

Ah, I see. I don't quite see the point though - why not just have a train terminal near the port? Most port towns have a railway station anyway, I think using ferry services and railways in conjunction is a very good idea, but not actually transporting the train - I just think that's odd.

On that service I posted people take the train to the port town, cross on the ferry and then catch the train at the town they dock in.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ah, I see. I don't quite see the point though - why not just have a train terminal near the port? Most port towns have a railway station anyway, I think using ferry services and railways in conjunction is a very good idea, but not actually transporting the train - I just think that's odd.

On that service I posted people take the train to the port town, cross on the ferry and then catch the train at the town they dock in.
I actually think that it would be a good idea to have a luxury service running from Amsterdam (via Rotterdam) to London which would be literary transported by the ferry so train passengers don't have to walk to the ferry and from the ferry any more (they arrive late at night or in the early morning when there is no direct connection by train so.. it's poorly planned).

But then again: it could be that there is a difference in railway gauge between Britain and the Netherlands so that's where we could have a problem.

[Albion]

I actually think that it would be a good idea to have a luxury service running from Amsterdam (via Rotterdam) to London which would be literary transported by the ferry so train passengers don't have to walk to the ferry and from the ferry any more (they arrive late at night or in the early morning when there is no direct connection by train so.. it's poorly planned).

But then again: it could be that there is a difference in railway gauge between Britain and the Netherlands so that's where we could have a problem.

I don't know, I think it's a load of hassle just to save a few minutes walking to the train station really. If it was that much bother then a branch of the train station could go directly to the port and trains could wait there.

As for rail gauge - I thought we used the same as the rest of Europe? Narrow Gauge is only on Mountain railways like on Snowdonia or the Isle of Man.
I'm pretty sure High Speed 1 and 2 (if it gets built) will be compatible with Dutch lines. Then again I don't think I'd want such a train on a ferry,i it wouldn't work.

At the moment the cheapest and easiest option would be to link train and ferry services. This would be a good compromise for the time being anyway.

[The Lawspeaker]

Then again I don't think I'd want such a train on a ferry,i it wouldn't work.
It worked in a lot of countries for a long, long time. It would just be new for many British. :) The thing is though that the trip from the Hook to Harwich takes 6 to 8 hours and I always found it surprising that the Calais to Dover route never became a train ferry as both ports are within half an hour distance from each other. Instead: they build this ridiculously expensive chunnel.


At the moment the cheapest and easiest option would be to link train and ferry services. This would be a good compromise for the time being anyway.
Agreed. But then the timetables of the ferry and train services would have to match because people should not have to wait on freezing cold platforms during the night or early morning. It might also be possible to create a kind of jet bridges from the station to the place where the ferry docks (basically like what you see on airfields) and to the custom services.