Hippie heathen atheists

[Loki]

Okay, I suppose this is the lowbrow version of Jagey's "Secular Heathenry (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7951)". ;)

I've been making critical threads recently about Christianity and the Bible. This has been met with claims that I am selective in my criticisms. Whilst I do think some perspectives are more worthy of derision than others, perhaps a little bit of mockery is due in this heathen corner. :coffee:

A few questions:

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

Discuss :coffee:

[Allenson]

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?


I think that I'm an excellent example of above mentioned type....although I'm half redneck, don't forget. Which of course makes me a hipneck. :smokin01:


2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

Sort of. I mean, it should be ethnoracially exclusive in my opinion. Nerthus is not in the genetic memory of a Bantu.


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

For me it's really about muddy boots, cutting firewood and a stiff northeast wind. A working with and reverence for, the powers of the Earth, Mother Nature if you will. She is omnipotent, dictating all that be. If she is nothing more than a collection of the laws of physics, then so be it.

I like her having a name though. :bow00002:

[Rachel]

:coffee:

while sipping coffee at work i gave your questions some real thought, and i will seriosuly answer them to the best of my ablities.

Hippies were a youth movement ( as i am sure your awear) i dont think that Heathens in the most general of terms are hippies, i frimly believe that my heathen beliefs do not fall in line with the youth movement of 1960's for example : hippies firmly believed in peace and love, I also believe in peace and love but i also would like to add that i believe in and support the need for self defense as a way to end certian problems.

I also would like to point out that the hippie movement of the 1960's also brought with it a fashion statement so while i may dress like a hippie ( bell bottom pants :eek: yes i actually know what they are.) and loose shirts i frimly hold to the idea that its just clothing i wear to be comfortable in.

as for your other two questions, I struggled a lot with the second question about racism,for a long while i felt that i was racist, i have now come to a diffrent understanding and that is this: Heathenism, does not wish to cause physical harm to any one diffrent then ourselves, i as a heathen follower in the old gods choose and acknowledge that there is a diffrence culutrally between northen europeans and their gods and ancestors and between other faiths and systems of belief.

I also firmly hold to the idea that heathens should teach their children to be proud of their heritage and their cultual connections , that we should feel no shame in being proud to be northen european and white. adding to this i hink it is time that we as a society as a whole stop looking at the past and screaming but the europeans ... killed the jew, created slavery etc. The people who harmed others because of their diffrences i do not claim heritage to nor do i acknowldge their place in my life, People do bad things and untill we as a society can see that i think , we as a society are doomed to reapeat ourselves.


third question, I am not sure what you mean by atheists... i dont think fo my self as an atheist i think of myself as a follower of the gods, I pray to mygod and i give them thanks for the many blessing they bring into my life and incorperate them into my daily life. So from my understanding atheists believe deities do not exist .. i know mine do, they brought be back to my rightful path.

Hail the gods of old and Hail our strength in numbers

Rachel

[Aemma]

Okay, I suppose this is the lowbrow version of Jagey's "Secular Heathenry (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7951)". ;)

I've been making critical threads recently about Christianity and the Bible. This has been met with claims that I am selective in my criticisms. Whilst I do think some perspectives are more worthy of derision than others, perhaps a little bit of mockery is due in this heathen corner. :coffee:

A few questions:

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

Discuss :coffee:

Nice try! LOL :D

[SuuT]

...
A few questions:

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

Pretty much. We're social morons who really like comic books, for the most.


2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

Fuck you, nigger!


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.



I, myself, am able to vanish from the earth when playing hide-and-seek with my children so I don't know what the hell you are talking about.




As soon as I can muster the gumption to talk in circles, I'll give you my real answers:thumb001::p.

[Loki]

Nice try! LOL :D

The best defence you can come up with, dear Aemma? :coffee:

Additionally, I will charge that heathens are way more wishy-washy and less dedicated to their "religion" than, say, Christians are. I say "religion", because it's not really a religion at all in the proper sense of the meaning. At best it's a loose recollection of old myths from pagan times, whose proper meaning had been lost in time anyway.

No one seriously equates modern Asatru with the religion that the pre-Christian Scandinavians and other Germanics practiced. One could just as well create a "religion" out of Star Wars, it would be equally beneficial and practical than modern heathenry. "The Force" seems more real to me than the power of mjollnir in any case. :coffee:

[Rachel]

[/QUOTE]"The Force" seems more real to me than the power of mjollnir in any case. :coffee:[/QUOTE]

That is till i hit you with my hammer ;) now lets see how strong the force is yoda? ;)[

[Treffie]

I think Loki is cruisin` for a bruisin` :D

[Rachel]

... i mean it in all good fun :)

[Frigga]

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

I can understand where some would get this viewpoint. There are many Odinists and Asatruars who only find out about the old religions once they go to jail, and they have to band up to protect themselves. So that could stand to reason for people thinking that. But not all heathens are like that. I don't feel that I am from the dregs of society. I never went to jail, and I have never been dirt poor.

I can also see why they can be called hippies. I've known quite a few :wink It is true that there are a lot of hippies that are Wiccans, or Buddists, or Hindus. But I personally do not know of any hippies that are Odinists or Asatruars. We're looked at as white supremacists by the hippies as we don't want or desire the other races to look to our Gods. Matter of fact, I only know of one other Odinist in my area, and he is not a hippie! He rides Harleys, and the antithesis of a hippie.


2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

Again, I can understand why people would think this. In the prison system, there are few recourses for the white inmates to protect themselves from forcibly being made the "submissive" to predominately minorities. (I have never been to prison, but I know a man who has served 11 years. I have heard the stories) There's the Hell's Angels, and then there's Odinists for the white community. In prison, the inmates naturally segregate themselves, and the white inmates are a minority in there, so they have a lot of odds against them about being butt buddies against their will. Many do not like the Hell's Angels as they do allow Hispanics and blacks, and in prison, the color of your skin means more than gang affiliations. Many wish for a religious path but cannot convince themselves that Christianity is the true path for them. When they discover Odinism, it is able to satisfy an inner call that nothing else was able to sate. They could be called racist for that, but I think that it is unfair to put that on them based on the circumstances that they are in, and the environment that the prison system is.

On the outside, things are different, and society says that we should be tolerant of all races, and that we should have affirmative action towards the ones who want to take part in Odinism and Asatru who are not of at least Northern European stock. But I've thought for a long time that the Gods and Goddesses are part of our ancestral heritage, that which makes us Northern Europeans. Jung had said that we have ancestral memories, like instincts that cats and dogs pass on to their offspring. The wish to honor of the Aesir and Vanir is imprinted on our genes just like our fairer skin, and our bone structure that makes us of each phenotype. I could not worship the Hindu gods of India as I am not of Indian heritage, and I could not worship the Shinto gods of Japan as I am not of Japanese heritage. Are those two religions called racist for having those racial types as their main followers? No.


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

It's different for everyone. Some do believe in the Gods and Goddesses. I know that I do. It comforts me to know that there are those who have known my people and race for time immemorial, and know our characters, as they are the exemplification of our best and worst traits. They know us, and are like us as well. Plus, rationality is, I imagine, rare among rationalists. :wink But you don't have to believe in the Gods and Goddesses for the heathen thought pattern of Northern Europe to be helpful. There is no threat of eternal damnation for the disbelief in them. There is just the hope of being able to get to be with them if we live a life that honors them, or to die a glorious death. There is no lake of fire in Asatru just because we do not choose to bow down to them and call them Lord and Savior. You are able to take what works best for you and discard the rest. Like observing the seasonal holidays, because that helps keep us in touch with Nature, and our families. The heathen way of life is very family based, and in a sense insular. We do not have an entity thousands of miles away insisting on our devotion and money to fund their coffers. We take care of our own, as that is all that really matters, those that we know and love, and who would take care of us, and of each other.

[Allenson]

"The Force" seems more real to me than the power of mjollnir in any case. :coffee:

Well, I think you've hit on it. The Gods, any gods, are personalizations of the many avenues & manifestations of The Force, regardless of what one calls them. The energies of the universe are real (I think ;)) and as we are merely soft fleshy entities made up of particles born of the primordial soup, our very existences are beacuse of the Forces That Be--they bind, they bite, they gather, they expell & they breathe life into.

The Force, may it be with you, broder Loke.

http://www.guidedbyyoda.com/images/yoda_in_swamp.jpg

[Psychonaut]

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

I wish I had my books here so I could provide an exact quote, but Stephen McNallen (founder and head of the Asatru Folk Assembly (http://runestone.org/)) addressed this at some length in the second issue of TYR: Myth--Culture--Tradition. He's entirely correct that so far Heathenry, due to it's current status as a "fringe" religion has attracted far too many fringe types. We've attracted far too many mediocre individuals who are on the fringe because society has rejected them. What we should be concentrating on are those individuals who distinguish themselves from society by their deeds and nature. We should be seeking superior people.


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

Seeing is believing, be it in the mind's eye during an altered state of consciousness or when Wuotan sits down next to you on a plane (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2302). I generally don't publicly speculate about the mode in which they exist, but when I intend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentionality) a deity, it is quite a different experience of noesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noesis) than is gleaned from any other type of noema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noema). I've said before that to achieve these kinds of experiences, one must usually purposefully alter the doxic modality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxa) in which one is intending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentionality) the deity, but after the first true encounter, the doxic shift occurs naturally, with less and less effort. This has been my experience. ;)

My apologies for vomiting phenomenological terminology all over this thread, but I wanted to say exactly what I meant.

[Ulf]

For me it's Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager) plus my heritage.

Sure we have a bunch of crazies, but given a population there will always be a percentage of stupid inhabiting some of that population, probably a consistent percentage across the board. There are more Christians and Atheists than heathens, so they probably have more stupid people in their ranks than us.

Do our deities exist? Who knows, as far as I'm aware being a Theist is not a requirement of Heathenry. I think it's more about honoring your heritage and people than about theology and myths.

We are our Deeds. -Eric Wódening

[Jamt]

As a Lutheran, Heathens as hippies and traditionalists and maybe ancestor- worshipers is what I respect most. That is what makes sense spiritually. Heathens as Nietzsche-worshipers and/or pop-culture might be insane or under demonic influence I think.

[SuuT]

*SuuT takes deep breath, in expectation of the inevitable*


...
A few questions:

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

Some are, yes. But, the dregs beget the dregs and evetually cancel themselves out of Heathen equation by virtue of being lost souls, as opposed to Wanderers: if your foot takes a size 38 shoe, the size 46 that you're trying to walk around in will eventually fall off your foot. In other words, the fringe elements that Psycho spoke of are just that. Heathenry is not, in my opinion and experience, any different in attracting shit people than is Islam or Christianity or Madonna's Kabala reading circle.


2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

No. It is openly racist insofar as "racist" and "ethnocentric" are synonymous. It is absurd, prima facie, for a Coptic Egyptian (as one example) to Blot to the Norns before, say, the birth of a child.


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

Because Rationalism/Empiricism/Materialism are not, necessarliy, mutually exclusive from the pursuit of knowledge, and the love of the wisdom gained, inherent to discovering the sense in which the gods exist, persisit, and subsist. And even the standard for this is not uniform: unlike the Catholic Church with Christianity, we do not hold a patent on metaphysical or spiritual pathways that, if everyone is held to, yields identical results for and to all who are held to it. Psycho, for example, is entering a deeply philosophical stage. Not everyone should do this; but, for him it is absolutely the mandate of his dominate instinct. For others, it is a walk through the woods. Heathenry accounts - in an unyieldingly defensible way - for the diversity of the Human Experience, as it is seen in Human Beings; not as a sterile, immobile, static edict from contradiction, itself.

Could there be anything more...rational?



[...]

Additionally, I will charge that heathens are way more wishy-washy and less dedicated to their "religion" than, say, Christians are.

If Christ swoops down from the sky tomorrow on his divine windsurfing board shooting lightening bolts out his ass at all the bad people it would only serve to strengthen the fact that I find the fable of Christ alien and unbelievable. You tell me: How's my devotion to the God of War, Wisdom and Poetry...?

[Fortis in Arduis]

According to some heathens, I am a heathen.

I believe that I am an eternal soul, in this body.

My concept of God is a benevolent loving God.

I do not follow a prescribed moral code, but instead believe that by trying to keep to certain holy self-disciplines, I will become a better man.

So, I am not an atheist, and not a hippie.

I suppose my focus is on purifying the body for meditation, and playing with the journey towards and away from yoga (union with God).

It is not easy, and the aspiration is very high, and I fail a lot, but I think that my life is much richer for this.

I was awakened about ten years ago, and since that point I have had no choice; even if I fail, this is my path.

My meditation is fixed, and I am a hatha yogi.

[Aemma]

The best defence you can come up with, dear Aemma? :coffee:

Additionally, I will charge that heathens are way more wishy-washy and less dedicated to their "religion" than, say, Christians are. I say "religion", because it's not really a religion at all in the proper sense of the meaning. At best it's a loose recollection of old myths from pagan times, whose proper meaning had been lost in time anyway.

No one seriously equates modern Asatru with the religion that the pre-Christian Scandinavians and other Germanics practiced. One could just as well create a "religion" out of Star Wars, it would be equally beneficial and practical than modern heathenry. "The Force" seems more real to me than the power of mjollnir in any case. :coffee:

Oh you know me way better than this, brother Loki! ;) I took the lazy way out. Ooops! Did I really say that out loud? :P

I will answer seriously in a wee bit though, in case you were starting to panic that I lost my voice or marbles or something. LOL :P :D

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Loki
Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

I think using Asatru and hippie in the same breath is an oxymoron......


Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

Sometimes, there are neo-Nazi organisations that use heathenry for cover, then again there are Christians who seriously believe Jesus wasn’t Jewish he was in fact a blonde haired, blue eyed super Aryan.

Race hate needs no religious justification.


Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway.

Some, maybe, not most, the ethical can be separated from the theological, then again is that exclusive to heathens?


I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist!

I don’t subscribe to anthropomorphic interpretations of Gods, my Nietzsche is rusty but I believe he would have considered that view Apollonian, citing Homer as a classic example of an egotistical illusion. I see the divine as transcendent and largely remote from our ordinary operative mode of existence. I consider man an evolved ape who, by some agency, was “raised up”.

We have the ability to “tap in” to the undercurrents and energies that power the cosmos we live within. We have the ability, like Odin who acquired the mead of inspiration or Finn who understood that the Salmon of Wisdom lies within to understand and contemplate creation, lineage and purpose. We have the ability to settle, within ourselves, the biggest conflict any man faces, the internal one between himself and himself, this is, for me, the lesson that Odin teaches us.

The gift of the Gods (take the last word however you like) was to understand this.


Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

I already have, Descartes was probably one of the finest rational minds aiding the development of the scientific process, dividing the world into the physical and the res cogitens (thought/mind). The man of reason surely accepts that science explains the “natural world” the world of physics very well indeed, but understands further that the realm of physics is but one realm.

I think a rational mind also understand inspiration and understands what has inspired our poetry, our music, all our higher forms of art and what they are appealing to.

[Nodens]

might be insane or under demonic influence I think.

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

[Brynhild]

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

Well, since I grew up in one of the more lower class suburbs of Sydney, I guess the answer to that we be a resounding Yes! As for flower power, I was - and still am - one of the flower children born in the 60s. I still wear the outrageous clothes and listen to the outrageous music. No shame in my game! :P

2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

But of course it is! Didn't the National Socialist movement of the 30s teach us anything?

3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

Just call me Sybil - after all, I answer to about five or more of my various personalities on any given day! :D

[Lyfing]

Hey Loki,

I could pass for a Hippie, but really I'm a ghost from the Civil War. I'm a racist too, that goes without saying I hope. Hel, I'm even an Athiest..!!

Suut said something about it, and so has Psychonaut. It is the game of "as if." (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=69465&postcount=15) It's a nice game, and it stirs within us things we lost long ago. And, it brings about in us again the same..!! It can be called a quest even. That is what there is to it that has us..

Like Campbell said..


MOYERS: Why myths? Why should we care about myths? What do they have to do with my life?

CAMPBELL: My first response would be, "Go on, live your life, it's a good life -- you don't need mythology." I don't believe in being interested in a subject just because it's said to be important. I believe in being caught by it somehow or other. But you may find that, with a proper introduction, mythology will catch you. And so, what can it do for you if it does catch you?

The Power of Myth

..a simple answer to that question would just be to read my little signature down there..!! It can bring your blood back into you..!!..:viking3:

Later,
-Lyfing

[Svarog]

Okay, I suppose this is the lowbrow version of Jagey's "Secular Heathenry (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7951)". ;)

I've been making critical threads recently about Christianity and the Bible. This has been met with claims that I am selective in my criticisms. Whilst I do think some perspectives are more worthy of derision than others, perhaps a little bit of mockery is due in this heathen corner. :coffee:

A few questions:

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.

Discuss :coffee:

Old-school fascism is on the rise
Narsissistic...Evangelistic
So many things are only here to be hated
No need for love when the world is sedated

:thumb001:

[Psychonaut]

Old-school fascism is on the rise
Narsissistic...Evangelistic
So many things are only here to be hated
No need for love when the world is sedated

:thumb001:

Perhaps I misunderstand your post, but is your point that Heathens are narcissistic Nazi evangelists who should be hated? :confused:

[Osweo]

For me it's really about muddy boots, cutting firewood and a stiff northeast wind. A working with and reverence for, the powers of the Earth, Mother Nature if you will. She is omnipotent, dictating all that be. If she is nothing more than a collection of the laws of physics, then so be it.

I like her having a name though. :bow00002:
Away up there, they got a name for Wind and Rain and Fire;
The Rain is Tess, the Fire's Jo, and they call the Wind Mariah! :thumbs up

I'm not a spiritual man, but I read so much sense coming out of those here who choose to position themselves under the Heathen umbrella. And it's all on an honest plane, without (excessive ;)) sophistry, and free from the mumbo-jumbo that you'll find in nearly all the 'respectable' alternatives.

I hope that our civilisation/race/world is about to go through one of its periodical metamorphoses, paradigm shifts, whatever you want to call it, and if Heathenry (based on the outlooks of our most intelligent ambassadors for it on this forum) manages to end up more central to the future way of thinking, then I'd be greatly relieved. :thumb001:

As for Loki's devilish advocate questions;
Dossers and scumbags and the lowest of the low? Anyone levelling such a judgement is very welcome to go on a guided tour with me through some of the worst scum-hole urban areas of Britain. He won't find Heathens there!

Racism? If the world itself ceased to be inherently and irrevocably racist I'd be more bothered about this.

Rationalism? Is it rational to be rational? Is a rational man safer when faced with hordes of irrational fanatics? Is doubt and accepted ignorance useful and selectionally advantageous to a Folk?

[Allenson]

For others, it is a walk through the woods.

Or actually living by way of the woods. The trees are my neighbors and I tend some, others, I just let.

They give their lives to me as I fell them, after a soft word of thanks from me. They warm me over many times--the cut, the buck, the split, the haul, the stack, the lug into the house and finally, into the stove on a Janurary morning when the glass reads thirty below zero. :cool:

Dawn on the Winter Solstice in the woods & fields of Bliss County:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/3127900515_8a904ae750.jpg

[Lutiferre]

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?
In certainty, they have a certain drive towards selectively interpreting heathenism in favour of modern ideas, or ideas and beliefs that, in the end, have nothing to do with the "Germanic deposit of tradition", so to speak.


2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?
Oftentimes for modern "heathens"; not so for real heathens. When religious and spiritual practice and tradition can be reduced by neo-heathens to some political striving or ideal, it becomes apparent how ridicilous and false their movement is.


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.
And like all true rationalists in history, become monotheists.

[Brynhild]

And like all true rationalists in history, become monotheists.

Actually, I disagree. There have been a great many of us who grew up with the more dogmatic doctrine of Monotheism, spoonfed by rote day in and day out. My eyes truly opened when I walked away from Roman Catholicism, and there is no way that I will ever revert to Monotheism again. Truth be told, I was never comfortable with the patriarchal ideal, at the expense of all else.

[Lutiferre]

Truth be told, I was never comfortable with the patriarchal ideal, at the expense of all else.
There is often unconscious, psychological motivation for the rejection of Christianity in the young "Westerners" mind. This lies often in the image and relationship to a persons father, precisely because of the strong metaphorical link between fatherhood and God in Christianity.

I'd recommend this article on the psychology of atheism and the theory of the defective father as a psychological promotor for atheistic sentiments: http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth12.html


Actually, I disagree. There have been a great many of us who grew up with the more dogmatic doctrine of Monotheism, spoonfed by rote day in and day out. My eyes truly opened when I walked away from Roman Catholicism, and there is no way that I will ever revert to Monotheism again.
Well, with true rationalists, I was thinking of the most greatest rationalist thinkers and philosophers throughout history, not exactly individual persons as such.

But an anti-rationalist too could be a monotheist, since monotheism encompasses many different perspectives at once as foundations for adherence to it.

[SuuT]

[I] ...I hope that our civilisation/race/world is about to go through one of its periodical metamorphoses, paradigm shifts, whatever you want to call it, and if Heathenry (based on the outlooks of our most intelligent ambassadors for it on this forum) manages to end up more central to the future way of thinking, then I'd be greatly relieved. :thumb001:



Preparatory human beings:

I welcome all signs that a more virile, warlike; age is about to begin, which will restore honor to courage above all. For this age shall prepare the way for one yet higher, and it shall gather the strength that this higher age will require some day - the age that will carry heroism into the search for knowledge and that will wage wars for the sake of ideas and their consequences. To this end we now need many preparatory courageous human beings who cannot very well leap out of nothing, any more than out of the sand and slime of present day civilization and metropolitanism - human beings who know how to be silent, lonely, resolute, and content and constant in invisible activities; human beings who are bent on seeking in all things for what in them must be overcome; human beings distinguished as much by cheerfulness, patience, unpretentiousness, and contempt for all great vanities as by magnanimity in victory and forbearance regarding the small vanities of the vanquished; human beings whose judgment concern-ing all victors and the share of chance in every victory and fame is sharp and free; human beings with their own festivals, their own working days, and their own periods of mourning, accustomed to command with assurance but instantly ready to obey when that is called for-equally proud, equally serving their own cause in both cases; more endangered human beings, more fruitful human beings, happier beings! For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously. Build your cities on the slopes of Vesuvius! Send your ships into uncharted seas. Live at war with your peers and yourselves! Be robbers and conquerors as long as you cannot be rulers and possessors, you seekers of knowledge! Soon the age will be past when you could be content to live hidden in forests like shy deer. At long last the search for knowledge will reach out for its due; it will want to rule and possess -

and you with it!




- Nietzsche

[Vargtand]

1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?

There are quite a few of them, but I would not say all. Let us go 3rd riech on the hippy kind... or better yet swedish early to mid 20th century racial hygienic policy on them :P


2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?

Who needs a cover?


3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.


Cultural value, social identity, pride... those are all logical reasons to not become a die-hard atheist.

[Svarog]

Perhaps I misunderstand your post:

yes you did ;)

[SuuT]

yes you did ;)

How about answering his question instead of being a douchebag.

[Psychonaut]

Oftentimes for modern "heathens"; not so for real heathens.

Ah, I see we're back to our old tactic again, aren't we? So far, in every single instance that you've involved yourself in a discussion relating to Heathenry, you've made a distinction between, what you deem to be, real and fake Heathens. Pray tell, in your lengthy time on this globe, how many Heathens have you met in real life? How many texts on modern Heathenry have you read (and which ones were they)? If the answer to either of these questions is less than one, then you are a gigantic jackass who obviously needs to educate himself before making any more generalizations about the state of contemporary Heathenry.

[Jägerstaffel]

This Loki, he's a funny guy.

[Lutiferre]

Ah, I see we're back to our old tactic again, aren't we? So far, in every single instance that you've involved yourself in a discussion relating to Heathenry, you've made a distinction between, what you deem to be, real and fake Heathens.
With "real", I only meant the historical heathens that the so-called "neo-heathens" themselves identify with.

[Psychonaut]

With "real", I only meant the historical heathens that the so-called "neo-heathens" themselves identify with.

Since this is your response, I'm guessing then that you're never met a Heathen and you've never read any books on contemporary Heathenry. Is this correct?

[Vargtand]

Additionally, I will charge that heathens are way more wishy-washy and less dedicated to their "religion" than, say, Christians are. I say "religion", because it's not really a religion at all in the proper sense of the meaning. At best it's a loose recollection of old myths from pagan times, whose proper meaning had been lost in time anyway.

You're basically saying that you don't deem it to be a religion because it does not follow the same pattern that christianity follows? how odd... also if the proper meaning has been lost how can you determine that the interpritation of today is incorrect, saying that the proper meaning has been lost, to seriously be able to claim that, you would need to know what the proper meaning would be... would you not? and if that is the case is the meaning lost?

Also christianity is more dogmatic than any folk religion has ever been, chritianity may fill the function of religion but heathen religion did much more and filled the function of culture as well. Anyone that claims that the myths about how the jews wandered through the desert has any relevance to how a bunch of forest dwellers close to the proximity of the Arctic circle lives their life or that it would be part of their culture is just silly.

The myths and old stories from ancient times are a part of our culture, the religion comes from that culture and is a driving force behind that culture. To learn more about our selfs, and to not fade away as every other culture and people we must reconnect with our past, both culturally and religious it has a greater value than just filling some spiritual void...


No one seriously equates modern Asatru with the religion that the pre-Christian Scandinavians and other Germanics practiced. One could just as well create a "religion" out of Star Wars, it would be equally beneficial and practical than modern heathenry. "The Force" seems more real to me than the power of mjollnir in any case. :coffee:

Which would be why not every one desires to be part of a modern Asatru movement.

As for creating the religion, I belive that has already happened, you should go into role-playing if you wish to meet such people :P

Mjollnir is a symbol for thunder, are you claiming the force is more real than thunder? o.O

[Lutiferre]

Since this is your response, I'm guessing then that you're never met a Heathen and you've never read any books on contemporary Heathenry. Is this correct?
Contemporary heathen would be an oxymoron in the contextualised sense. Only heathen in a more general sense would be relevant, but it wouldn't be relevant to the context I was talking about it in.

[Lutiferre]

Also christianity is more dogmatic than any folk religion has ever been, chritianity may fill the function of religion but heathen religion did much more and filled the function of culture as well.
Christianity has filled the "function" of culture as well, or rather, been the center of cultures throughout Christendom so long as it remained dominant.

Anyone that claims that the myths about how the jews wandered through the desert has any relevance to how a bunch of forest dwellers close to the proximity of the Arctic circle lives their life or that it would be part of their culture is just silly.
I believe they had more moral imagination than you to see what relevance it could have, beyond the mere geographical situation. Besides, the bible is full of contents besides desert wanderings, and has much of the stuff that is in all other mythology, and of perennial relevance. But that is it, you may think that the Israelitic people is too southern for the northerners and those south of them may think it is too northern, and those west of them may think it is too eastern, and those east of them may think it is too western. But that is because they are exactly in the middle, and exactly fit, if anyone, for the covenant with God as an instrument for the universal sanctification of mankind, whether east or west or north or south.

[Osweo]

Christianity has filled the "function" of culture as well, or rather, been the center of cultures throughout Christendom so long as it remained dominant.
Hmmm... Much of our culture has existed in spite of Christianity. Our folklore and legends, dance, song, costume... Christianity's been largely irrelevant to whole swathes of it. And much of this goes back to Heathen roots. Most of our populations never really understood the creed anyway, so it's doubly easy to slough it off now.

But that is because they are exactly in the middle, and exactly fit, if anyone, for the covenant with God as an instrument for the universal sanctification of mankind, whether east or west or north or south.
How come it failed in the East, then? And barely made an impression at all in the south?

Lutiferre, I don't get you. You're a Dane, and yet don't overly identify with whatever church they have there, but write 'orthodox Christian' in your profile, which is pretty meaningless. I suppose you think you are part of some refined and reformed and enlightened Christianity, that is not party to the errors of Popery or the major Protestant sects, but probably more faithful to the Early Church's ideas - and yet how then are you any different to reconstructionists in the Heathen sphere? How many reformations does Christianity need before it gets it right? Will it ever? You're as guilty as Heathens of innovation.

[Psychonaut]

Contemporary heathen would be an oxymoron in the contextualised sense. Only heathen in a more general sense would be relevant, but it wouldn't be relevant to the context I was talking about it in.

You've dodged my direct questions twice. I'll ask again:

1. Have you ever met, in real life, people who self-identify as Heathens?

2. Have you read any texts written by those who self-identify as Heathens about Heathenry as it is practiced today?

Your artful dodging is making it look like the answer to both of these questions is a resounding no, which would make your opinions about Heathenry completely and utterly without foundation.

[Lutiferre]

Hmmm... Much of our culture has existed in spite of Christianity. Our folklore and legends, dance, song, costume... Christianity's been largely irrelevant to whole swathes of it. And much of this goes back to Heathen roots. Most of our populations never really understood the creed anyway, so it's doubly easy to slough it off now.
The dances, folklore, songs and costumes in my nation that I know of, don't go back to pre-Christian times, but have arised in Christian times.


How come it failed in the East, then? And barely made an impression at all in the south?
It didn't "fail in the east", nor did it fail in the south. Mind you, I was talking about Israel, and Israels spiritual legacy has been continued to an extent even if imperfectly both by the modern Muslims, the Jews and the Christians, and all together it goes both into the south, the east, the north and the west, and these Abrahamic faiths together represent more than half of mankind (more than 3 billion people).

And even Christianity alone, as the one perfect successor to Israel, has gone into all directions, even though it hasn't conquered the entire world, it's still the worlds greatest religion with 2 billion adherents.

http://sites.google.com/site/mideastp6geogrphyhistory/_/rsrc/1236266711241/concentration-of-religions/800px-Christian_distribution.png

I suppose you think you are part of some refined and reformed and enlightened Christianity, that is not party to the errors of Popery or the major Protestant sects, but probably more faithful to the Early Church's ideas - and yet how then are you any different to reconstructionists in the Heathen sphere? How many reformations does Christianity need before it gets it right? Will it ever? You're as guilty as Heathens of innovation.
There has been no point ever since Jesus was crucified, at which there was no Christian Church in existence. You can point to no point in time of such discontinuation. There has been constant tradition, and constant Christianity, ever since the Christ walked the earth. There is no need of reconstruction when continuing a tradition which has been constant since the first century with Jesus, and continued by the Church, in the Apostles and the Church Fathers and all the Saints.

The only Christian reconstructionists that I have heard of are protestant ones, who realise that they have strayed far beyond Christian orthodoxy and realise the need for returning to tradition, even if their results fail at achieving that.

[Lutiferre]

You've dodged my direct questions twice. I'll ask again:

1. Have you ever met, in real life, people who self-identify as Heathens?

2. Have you read any texts written by those who self-identify as Heathens about Heathenry as it is practiced today?

Your artful dodging is making it look like the answer to both of these questions is a resounding no, which would make your opinions about Heathenry completely and utterly without foundation.
Because they were irrelevant to what I actually stated for the reasons that I wrote. That was not a dodge, but explaining why it had no relevance.

And so, since it was irrelevant to what I stated, I felt no need to answer questions which, beyond their relevance to the post of mine which they were addressed at, are in no way relevant to that subject.

[Baron Samedi]

We need more discussions like this.

Feelings might be hurt, but these are serious questions to be asked as we trudge along.

[Tolleson]

The dances, folklore, songs and costumes in my nation that I know of, don't go back to pre-Christian times, but have arised in Christian times.

Is this based on anecdotal evidence or historical evidence?

[Osweo]

The dances, folklore, songs and costumes in my nation that I know of, don't go back to pre-Christian times, but have arised in Christian times.
I suggest you look harder. Or maybe your Puritans were more effective than ours in wiping out the older stuff.

It didn't "fail in the east", nor did it fail in the south.
Yeah, cos the Nestorian Church is still massive in Persia and even China... And the Kenyan president of the USA has an Islamic name, and no connection with ancient Axum... They failed.

Mind you, I was talking about Israel, and Israels spiritual legacy has been continued to an extent even if imperfectly both by the modern Muslims, the Jews and the Christians, and all together it goes both into the south, the east, the north and the west, and these Abrahamic faiths together represent more than half of mankind (more than 3 billion people).
I don't like the friends you keep. A major turn off for Christianity as a whole, all this 'Abrahamic' talk.

And even Christianity alone, as the one perfect successor to Israel, has gone into all directions, even though it hasn't conquered the entire world, it's still the worlds greatest religion with 2 billion adherents.
Only through the western conduit. Why drop your messiah in the Middle East, if only Europeans are ever going to bother propagating it by colonial conquest?

There has been no point ever since Jesus was crucified, at which there was no Christian Church in existence. You can point to no point in time of such discontinuation. There has been constant tradition, and constant Christianity, ever since the Christ walked the earth.
Christ, as if there haven't been MAJOR theological disruptions, breaches and fresh starts all along the way!

There is no need of reconstruction when continuing a tradition which has been constant since the first century with Jesus, and continued by the Church, in the Apostles and the Church Fathers and all the Saints.

The only Christian reconstructionists that I have heard of are protestant ones, who realise that they have strayed far beyond Christian orthodoxy and realise the need for returning to tradition, even if their results fail at achieving that.
So you really are of the Greek Church, then? Seriously? Xristos anesti ek nekron and all that? If you're going to be a Christian, it is one of the most defensible types.

[Tolleson]

Because they were irrelevant to what I actually stated for the reasons that I wrote. That was not a dodge, but explaining why it had no relevance.

And so, since it was irrelevant to what I stated, I felt no need to answer questions which, beyond their relevance to the post of mine which they were addressed at, are in no way relevant to that subject.

For a moment, let's consider "that subject" closed. Will Psychonaut's questions be answered by you based on "no subject" being on the table?

[Lutiferre]

I suggest you look harder. Or maybe your Puritans were more effective than ours in wiping out the older stuff.
The songs that have been sung ever since Christian times have often had Christian themes, not to mention the psalms sung in Church, the most numerous kind of song; the national cuisine had taken shape after the Christian dietary rules; the national feasts and fasts shaped after Christian liturgical year; the national holidays shaped after Christian holy days; the costumes shaped after Christian attitudes of modesty (some pre-Christian ones abolished for that reason) the art in all its expression often with religious themes, and so on. And the pagan culture that did survive (Jul, for instance) was given a Christian theological theme (the birth of Christ) with which it remains intimately tied together, and with other examples of becoming Saints days (Skt. Hans, for instance).

[Vargtand]

I suggest you look harder. Or maybe your Puritans were more effective than ours in wiping out the older stuff.


well he could have grown up in a very closed circle of people and in a very controlled environment. because to be honest almost all folklore we have has a pre-Christian root, or is connected to something out of the ancient times, as the big boulders next to churches are called giants throw, because in folklore giants can not stand the chime of the bells so they threw boulders at the churches just barely missing them. This is very much linking together the old with the current, unless of course there are trolls in Christianity that go about hating churches and live in forests and are tall as giants... o.O then again Denmark may be slightly different...

[Lutiferre]

well he could have grown up in a very closed circle of people and in a very controlled environment. because to be honest almost all folklore we have has a pre-Christian root, or is connected to something out of the ancient times, as the big boulders next to churches are called giants throw, because in folklore giants can not stand the chime of the bells so they threw boulders at the churches just barely missing them. This is very much linking together the old with the current, unless of course there are trolls in Christianity that go about hating churches and live in forests and are tall as giants... o.O then again Denmark may be slightly different...
What a weak example, as if it has any significance. Now, if folklore means asetro, then yes, it is pre-Christian, but that wasn't what I was speaking of, since the folklore of Christian times isn't the same as asetro, and has mostly died out, with the exception of the residue around holidays and feasts like Jul, which is mostly harmless, and certainly not anti-Christian in anyway.

[Vargtand]

What a weak example, as if it has any significance. Now, if folklore means asetro, then yes, it is pre-Christian, but that wasn't what I was speaking of, since the folklore of Christian times isn't the same as asetro, and has mostly died out, with the exception of the residue around holidays and feasts like Jul, which is mostly harmless, and certainly not anti-Christian in anyway.

The point was not to try to spark a debate, it was merely to illustrate that most of our old folklore and still our current folklore survives and no matter how hard you may wish to denies it, it still lives on though changed and twisted and turned to a state where it is hardly recognised (sounds a bit like any political reform put into place really...) for what it once was it still has its root in the very cradle of our culture, and that cradle is certainly no Christian.

Hell superstition still exists, the belief in ghosts of different shapes and sizes, of trolls gnomes and elfs, of Näcken who drowns children etc etc. that still lives on. But presumable something that is effecting how people live their life... something that affects the very mentality, well Jantes Law, still exist to this day and to be frank... I think this is a mentality that has been with us Scandinavians since even before Odin and Thor, and will probably be with us even after the worship of Mohammed is dead :P

[Lutiferre]

The point was not to try to spark a debate, it was merely to illustrate that most of our old folklore and still our current folklore survives and no matter how hard you may wish to denies it, it still lives on though changed and twisted and turned to a state where it is hardly recognised (sounds a bit like any political reform put into place really...) for what it once was it still has its root in the very cradle of our culture, and that cradle is certainly no Christian.

Hell superstition still exists, the belief in ghosts of different shapes and sizes, of trolls gnomes and elfs, of Näcken who drowns children etc etc. that still lives on. But presumable something that is effecting how people live their life... something that affects the very mentality, well Jantes Law, still exist to this day and to be frank... I think this is a mentality that has been with us Scandinavians since even before Odin and Thor, and will probably be with us even after the worship of Mohammed is dead :P
The superstition/folklore that existed in Christian times (belief in nisser, obscure and magic beings of various kinds) were not peculiar to the theological beliefs in asetro, and were certainly not anti-Christian, nor a significantly important or dominative cultural or religious element, but simply folk superstition as it exists everywhere in various forms.

[Jägerstaffel]

Well that folk superstition surely didn't come from Christianity.

[Lutiferre]

Well that folk superstition surely didn't come from Christianity.
No, it didn't. My point was that it was a superstition that existed separately from theological beliefs, and hence, a superstition which could exist in a Christian culture in a way that most of asetro could not.

[Jägerstaffel]

I think the point they were making was that the heathen tradition didn't disappear, it just took another name, changed the way it was practiced and became a little less obvious - but it didn't go away.

[Osweo]

The songs that have been sung ever since Christian times have often had Christian themes, not to mention the psalms sung in Church, the most numerous kind of song;
I never said ALL song! And to bring up songs from IN church is pretty laughable here! :D

the national feasts and fasts shaped after Christian liturgical year; the national holidays shaped after Christian holy days;
Vice versa, more like! Never read Pope Gregory the Great's advice to St Augustine?

the art in all its expression often with religious themes,
No 'Green Men' in your churches? No continuity in secular art and decoration?

and so on. And the pagan culture that did survive (Jul, for instance) was given a Christian theological theme (the birth of Christ) with which it remains intimately tied together, and with other examples of becoming Saints days (Skt. Hans, for instance).
In most of our countries, what goes on on these days would be fully recogniseable to our ancestors, and completely alien to C1 AD Jews!

[Lutiferre]

I think the point they were making was that the heathen tradition didn't disappear, it just took another name, changed the way it was practiced and became a little less obvious - but it didn't go away.
"Heathen tradition" cannot be taken to mean Germanic culture in its entirity, since our language which surely continued is also part of Germanic culture, but heathen tradition usually refers to the spiritual and religious practice of heathens, and hence the theological beliefs of Germanic pagans, and therefore not the belief in magic fairies primarily either. Equating "heathen tradition", if it is taken to mean the spiritual and religious practice and accompanying theology of heathens, with magical fairies is simply ridicilous.

Anything which was part of our culture before Christianity, but not in conflict with Christian attitudes or theology, could be adopted without problems.

Anything which conflicted with the theology, or presented an occasion to introduce some Christian theology, would be baptised with some relevant Christian content.

The superstition of magical fairies wasn't directly a problem since it presented no theological challenge.

[Lutiferre]

I never said ALL song! And to bring up songs from IN church is pretty laughable here! :D
Actually, it isn't, since the churches in all Danish villages at least, has throughout Christian history been the persisting cultural, spiritual and religious center in which the people is assembled.

[Jägerstaffel]

"Heathen tradition" cannot be taken to mean Germanic culture in its entirity, since our language which surely continued is also part of Germanic culture, but heathen tradition usually refers to the spiritual and religious practice of heathens, and hence the theological beliefs of Germanic pagans, and therefore not the belief in magic fairies primarily either. Equating "heathen tradition", if it is taken to mean the spiritual and religious practice and accompanying theology of heathens, with magical fairies is simply ridicilous.

Anything which was part of our culture before Christianity, but not in conflict with Christian attitudes or theology, could be adopted without problems.

Anything which conflicted with the theology, or presented an occasion to introduce some Christian theology, would be baptised with some relevant Christian content.

It's not the sum total of it, but it goes to show that it didn't disappear from the hearts and minds of the common people.

I agree that our history is intertwined with Christianity, but that doesn't mean we can't separate one aspect from the other.

[Psychonaut]

Because they were irrelevant to what I actually stated for the reasons that I wrote. That was not a dodge, but explaining why it had no relevance.

And so, since it was irrelevant to what I stated, I felt no need to answer questions which, beyond their relevance to the post of mine which they were addressed at, are in no way relevant to that subject.

I see...

So, since you have for a third time refused to answer my questions, I'll assume it's because the answer is no. You have never met a Heathen. You have never read any books about Heathenry. You know absolutely nothing about Heathenry. Add these three things together and what do we get?

A jackass who assumes an air of authority by masking his ignorance with misdirection, pedantic tangents and straw men

Until you broaden your knowledge base about Heathenry by actually meeting a few and reading a book or two on the subject, I'd advice any and all Apricity posters to completely and utterly disregard anything you have to say on the subject.

[Lutiferre]

I see...

So, since you have for a third time refused to answer my questions, I'll assume it's because the answer is no. You have never met a Heathen. You have never read any books about Heathenry. You know absolutely nothing about Heathenry. Add these three things together and what do we get?

A jackass who assumes an air of authority by masking his ignorance with misdirection, pedantic tangents and straw men

Until you broaden your knowledge base about Heathenry by actually meeting a few and reading a book or two on the subject, I'd advice any and all Apricity posters to completely and utterly disregard anything you have to say on the subject.
Complete non-sequitur.

Our very notions of what "heathenry" means were diametrically opposed, and hence, there would be no reason for me to submit to a question which begs the question of your definition of heathenry, which conflates the Germanic heathens that were my ancestors, and the reconstructionist neo-heathens of today.

[Psychonaut]

Our very notions of what "heathenry" means were diametrically opposed, and hence, there would be no reason for me to submit to a question which begs the question of your definition of heathenry, which conflates the Germanic heathens that were my ancestors, and the reconstructionist neo-heathens of today.

I have nothing to compare ancient notions of Heathenry to because I've never met any Heathens nor have I read any of their books.

[Lutiferre]

I have nothing to compare ancient notions of Heathenry to because I've never met any Heathens nor have I read any of their books.
First, even calling them by the same term in pretending the same identity is begging the question of your own view which I have no obligation to agree with. Second, all that needs to be compared is the disrepancy and discontinuity in historical context, which makes it impossible that we are speaking about one and the same thing (and equivocalize it by identification), even if one tries to imitate the other as much as possible out of their limited knowledge of the former. Nevertheless, it doesn't make it a genuine spiritual successor, not to mention one and the same religious, cultural, ethnic and spiritual identification.

[Psychonaut]

First, even calling them by the same term in pretending the same identity is begging the question of your own view which I have no obligation to agree with. Second, all that needs to be compared is the disrepancy and discontinuity in historical context, which makes it impossible that we are speaking about one and the same thing (and equivocalize it by identification), even if one tries to imitate the other as much as possible out of their limited knowledge of the former. Nevertheless, it doesn't make it a genuine spiritual successor, not to mention one and the same religious, cultural, ethnic and spiritual identification.

I don't know what the term Heathen means nowadays since I've never read any books about it or met any people who identify as Heathens. I like to pretend that I know a lot about how Heathenry today is different from the religion of our ancestors, but since I've never done any reading about what goes on today or what is believed today I have absolutely no basis for comparison.

[Lutiferre]

I like to set up straw men by pasting text into a quote of someone else and pretending it to be their words for polemics.

[Jägerstaffel]

I know you are but what am I?!

[Psychonaut]

Psychonaut likes to set up straw men by pasting text into a quote of someone else and pretending it to be their words for polemics.

You obviously misunderstand what a straw man is. A straw man would be if I were to misrepresent your position on a subject and proceed to attack it. All I'm doing is stating what is blatantly obvious. You have never met a self-identified Heathen. You have never read a single book about Heathenry written by such a person. You know nothing about what we call Heathenry, yet you claim it is somehow different in a fundamental way from what our ancestors believed and practiced. How is it that you have come to know this? To compare A to B, you must have a working knowledge of both A and B. You are attempting to do this but have absolutely no knowledge at all about B, thus your comparisons and contrasts are inherently flawed. My suggestion to remedy this?

Read a book.
Talk to some people who identify as Heathens.

[Fortis in Arduis]

For European Heathenry to be of interest to me, I would need for there to be enlightened living masters.

Without that, I cannot see how it goes beyond being a humanistic philosophy with historicist rituals.

Please correct me though.

[Lutiferre]

You obviously misunderstand what a straw man is. A straw man would be if I were to misrepresent your position on a subject and proceed to attack it.
I'm aware. And you of course claim that your words is my position. I nevertheless deny that.


Read a book.
Talk to some people who identify as Heathens.
And again you repeat something which is irrelevant to my statements.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Fortis_in_Arduis
For European Heathenry to be of interest to me, I would need for there to be enlightened living masters.

Which you define as what?

Besides why do you need someone to join the dots for you?


Without that, I cannot see how it goes beyond being a humanistic philosophy with historicist rituals.

A humanistic philosophy? Not sure why you think that.

As for recreation, who wants reconstruction? I’m not in the least bit interested in resurrection or lore whores who believe we can’t do this that or the other because the “Vikings” didn’t do it. Who cares? Stagnation isn’t a bright future, organic growth is, and the Folk organism is the basis for that growth.

[Lutiferre]

As for recreation, who wants reconstruction? I’m not in the least bit interested in resurrection or lore whores who believe we can’t do this that or the other because the “Vikings” didn’t do it. Who cares? Stagnation isn’t a bright future, organic growth is, and the Folk organism is the basis for that growth.
Whether you are interested in reconstruction would matter if it wasn't because you aren't actually continuing an organic tradition, but rather an artificial one that is now changing organically.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre
Whether you are interested in reconstruction would matter if it wasn't because you aren't actually continuing an organic tradition, but rather an artificial one that is now changing organically.

Let’s clarify, the modern Asatru/heathen/Odinist, what ever you wish to call it, movement largely started in the 19th century, Guido Von List is often taken as the “father” although there were others before him.

Is it a continuance? No, of course not, open practise of indigenous religions in northern/western Europe was largely obliterated by the mid early 13th century, what was left was either absorbed into Christianity or was practised in secret.

No modern Odinist I know would claim to be reconstructing the old religion or even claim to know in exactness what that old religion actually consisted of, it’s impossible to know, our sources are limited and often biased. There are Heathens who won’t operate outside of the Eddaic texts, that’s as far as you will find a reconstructionist approach in modern Asatru.

As for it being organic, of course it’s organic, how can an adherent of any religious creed possibly claim any sort of genuine connection or authentic belief if they don’t feel within themselves that their belief is inherent in some sense? Christians I know personally, rightly, state the Europeanised nature of modern Christianity in Europe, Christianity has always been an adaptive religion, which is why I don’t personally have an anti-Christian axe to grind.

You are correct to state that the rituals and to some extent even the philosophy of modern Asatru are not a continuation and are even creations of modern Heathens but I think it is incorrect to claim it’s not organic i.e. within the Folk, forgetting isn’t the same as absence, I contend our beliefs have always been central to our psyche, even under the Christian guise, they are now coming to the fore again, openly, but, obviously, they won’t be the same as before, they wouldn’t be regardless of whether Christianisation had taken place or not.

[Svarog]

How about answering his question instead of being a douchebag.

First of all, I am not a douchbag.

Second, I did answer the question, he asked me if he misunderstood me and I said that he did, question answered.

Third, now I am gonna travel back through time in 1995 and my 8's and tell that you're a douchbag.

:rolleyes:

[Fortis in Arduis]

Which you define as what?

Besides why do you need someone to join the dots for you?

My path has been laid out for me, but I benefit hugely from deferring to wise people.

My definition of enlightenment:

Someone who is constantly aware of themselves as an eternal non-physical being is enlightened.

Such an individual can help others experience the bodiless bliss of being and that enlightenment will be evident from the presence that they have.

Spiritually evolved people have a certain aura.

'Humanistic philosophy' I will deal with after a little input from your good self.

I hope that we understand each others' terminology.

[Psychonaut]

Without that, I cannot see how it goes beyond being a humanistic philosophy with historicist rituals.

I understand what you mean Fortis, and, in a way, I agree. I came to Heathenry as a student of Rāja Yoga and still have the utmost regard for the "upper level" spiritual philosophies and practices of India. I think what you're seeing right now with Heathenry is that since we're still in our infancy, most Heathens are still in the Vedic phase of Germanic religion. There are those, myself included, who are working at changing this so that our spiritual philosophies and practices will have the same efficiency and depth as Tantrika Laya Yoga and other highly evolved systems of spiritual actualization. It may not be for you yet, but keep an eye out. :)


And again you repeat something which is irrelevant to my statements.

And again you bask in your willful ignorance of a topic about which you continue to pretend to know something about.

[Ulf]

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/Decimator1/derailed.jpg

[Fortis in Arduis]

I understand what you mean Fortis, and, in a way, I agree. I came to Heathenry as a student of Rāja Yoga and still have the utmost regard for the "upper level" spiritual philosophies and practices of India.

Raja Yoga, when you realise yourself as the eternal atma and creator of the/your entire world.

That is not hippie atheism.

That is the ultimate.

:icon_yes:

People say that Christianity once had that technology, but that it was suppressed by Rome.

[Psychonaut]

Raja Yoga, when you realise yourself as the eternal atma and creator of the/your entire world.

That is not hippie atheism.

That is the ultimate.

:icon_yes:

People say that Christianity once had that technology, but that it was suppressed by Rome.

The foundation is being laid.

In time the spires will reach for the heavens.

[Psychonaut]

Once again, another Heathenry thread has been derailed and turned into a discussion about Christianity. Posts relating to the Christianization of the Heathen world have been moved here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8365).

[asulf]

as always, but it becomes a habit, I am puzzled by the zeal of Lutifere, sought to demolish a religious school of thought other than his own!
Lutti oh what a fantastic preacher and missionary you have done in ancient times, to distill the lies of the Christian church with that totalitarian darkness in your certainty that you always hearing us saying the sacred texts of the Bible remastered by the elite your churches at their convenience at multiple times on different times thank you for reminding us that before Christ there was nothing ah yes
thou come we lecturing we enlighten our own nature ethnic spiritual explain we somment in l error but need irrepressible te shoots has melt like falcon Wodan on snake we summit, us heathens to tes eyes.
playing over form thou forgets Substance
our soul Germanic our inheritance must Song remind

the meaning of freedom!
what bothers you, in fact, is that we do not bow down the back!
Muslims prostrate themselves, the xtian we kneel we stand! for us to address the manifestation of our ancestral gods
proud and free! is true, we are not an example of a monotheistic religion that seeks to enslave the masses for the benefit of these elites, in the name of god we do not descend

oh my god (sorry I could not resist ..) it must be great fear that dwells in your chapels and other places of worship, indoctrinated the masses wake up they are beyond your control, your system builds on the lie flickers and threatens to collapse
Noah's Ark take water
but your actions are condemned, you are the architects of your own loss, including intervening in this forum you lose credibility we no longer have the desire to listen, knowing in advance the content of your speech

I do forgive this point n is not in our nature, and moreover it xtian.
however grace, stay we watering your certainties entertaining because you this virus xtian seeking invade our organism pagan generating antibodies lifesaving which reinforce our faith and determination has resist upside cons you
in short dear Loki forgiveness Luti you our necessary evil
I would end this joke mocking Luti blessed be ...
these speeches, he brings the pagans lost on the pagan path, you are our St Paul on the Damascus road, because by your holy work, you reveal the light pagan and brings us the revelation of our faith ....

Luti without rancor, I'd much t say that you'd end puppy you do not bite by dogs, see the wolves ... done!;)

[Lutiferre]

thou come we lecturing we enlighten our own nature ethnic spiritual explain we somment in l error but need irrepressible te shoots has melt like falcon Wodan on snake we summit, us heathens to tes eyes.
playing over form thou forgets Substance
our soul Germanic our inheritance must Song remind
What the hell are you talking about? You are some French dude as far as I know, so why do you call yourself Germanic?

And the "nature ethnic spiritual" of European cultures and peoples is post-Christian and partially Christian, not Pagan.


the meaning of freedom!
what bothers you, in fact, is that we do not bow down the back!
Muslims prostrate themselves, the xtian we kneel we stand! for us to address the manifestation of our ancestral gods
proud and free! is true, we are not an example of a monotheistic religion that seeks to enslave the masses for the benefit of these elites, in the name of god we do not descend

oh my god (sorry I could not resist ..) it must be great fear that dwells in your chapels and other places of worship, indoctrinated the masses wake up they are beyond your control, your system builds on the lie flickers and threatens to collapse
Noah's Ark take water
but your actions are condemned, you are the architects of your own loss, including intervening in this forum you lose credibility we no longer have the desire to listen, knowing in advance the content of your speech

I do forgive this point n is not in our nature, and moreover it xtian.
however grace, stay we watering your certainties entertaining because you this virus xtian seeking invade our organism pagan generating antibodies lifesaving which reinforce our faith and determination has resist upside cons you
in short dear Loki forgiveness Luti you our necessary evil
I would end this joke mocking Luti blessed be ...
these speeches, he brings the pagans lost on the pagan path, you are our St Paul on the Damascus road, because by your holy work, you reveal the light pagan and brings us the revelation of our faith ....

Luti without rancor, I'd much t say that you'd end puppy you do not bite by dogs, see the wolves ... done!;)Why don't you keep your meaningless babbbling to yourself? This string of words with some remote relevance hasn't much more meaning than what can be generated by a randomizing computer script.

[Psychonaut]

Why don't you keep your meaningless babbbling to yourself? This string of words with some remote relevance hasn't much more meaning than what can be generated by a randomizing computer script.

Respond to the content, not the form of a post in this section, or do not respond at all. Insulting the English abilities of non-native speakers is not appropriate in this sub-forum.

[The Lawspeaker]

What the hell are you talking about? You are some French dude as far as I know, so why do you call yourself Germanic?

And the "nature ethnic spiritual" of European cultures and peoples is post-Christian and partially Christian, not Pagan.
Why don't you keep your meaningless babbbling to yourself? This string of words with some remote relevance hasn't much more meaning than what can be generated by a randomizing computer script.
O.K let me make it clear to you: this sections is for Heathens and their religion so get out and take your Christian propaganda somewhere else.

And also: the French too have a lot of Germanic blood. Hell the Franks were Germanics and the modern French also have some Roman and Gaul (Celtic/ Celto-Iberian) blood.
So the French could pick from a wide field of Paganist religions: Germanic, Celtic and Roman.

[Lutiferre]

Respond to the content, not the form of a post in this section, or do not respond at all. Insulting the English abilities of non-native speakers is not appropriate in this sub-forum.
The content? As far as I know, and as Lawspeaker says, he just wants me to gtfo. But no, he had to make a looong post with totally meaningless combinations of anecdotes about Christianity and me.

He could have just said "GTFO". But instead, the content is a pile of absolute meaningless BS.

O.K let me make it clear to you: this sections is for Heathens and their religion so get out and take your Christian propaganda somewhere else.
Thanks. That is short and clear.


Second. The French too have a lot of Germanic admixture. Hell the Franks were Germanics and also have Roman and Gaul (Celtic) blood.
So the French could pick from a wide field of Paganist religions: Germanic, Celtic and Roman.
No.

[Psychonaut]

http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/61fps/2009/01/facepalm.jpg


O.K let me make it clear to you: this sections is for Heathens and their religion so get out and take your Christian propaganda somewhere else.

I appreciate your impulse to defend this sub-fora from the Christian hordes, but please leave moderating to the moderators. ;)


Second. The French too have a lot of Germanic blood. Hell the Franks were Germanics and the modern French also have some Roman and Gaul (Celtic/ Celto-Iberian) blood.
So the French could pick from a wide field of Paganist religions: Germanic, Celtic and Roman.

Discussion of French meta-ethnicity is not really appropriate for this thread. Perhaps the discussion could be revived is this one (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329).

[asulf]

Luti my young you're so sweet innocence of certainties and poor!
my name is Germanic as 22% of French-born, my ancestors and probably ALAMAN SUEVE my name is certainly carried by one of your neighbors to your own street idiot! uneducated you are! It is common throughout Scandinavia, Germany, to Austria!
Sort some of your religious studies young fool, and learn the history and geography of Europe, you could be my son whom I would willingly give a spanking! " for your display and your rudeness and disrespect displayed by your navel and your ego adequacy stinking brat that you are :mad::mad::mad:

when what is the language I pass by a translator to respect those who read it s called the polite asshole:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Psychonaut]

Luti my young you're so sweet innocence of certainties and poor!
my name is Germanic as 22% of French-born, my ancestors and probably ALAMAN SUEVE my name is certainly carried by one of your neighbors to your own street idiot! uneducated you are! It is common throughout Scandinavia, Germany, to Austria!
Sort some of your religious studies young fool, and learn the history and geography of Europe, you could be my son whom I would willingly give a spanking! " for your display and your rudeness and disrespect displayed by your navel and your ego adequacy stinking brat that you are :mad::mad::mad:

when what is the language I pass by a translator to respect those who read it s called the polite asshole:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Again. Personal insults will be restricted to the appropriate social groups and/or PMs. Cut it out, everyone.

[Freomæg]

I seem to arrive so late to these threads nowadays.


1) Are all so-called heathens, Asatruars, etc directionless hippies who hail from the dregs of society?
Not directionless hippies, but outcasts of mainstream society? Very often so, yes. There's no escaping the fact that Heathenism is part of the 'alternative' lifestyle. But then so is preservationism :p.



2) Is heathenry merely a cover for racism?
It happens to be linked with ethnocentrism, and there are no doubt a few racists who channel their feelings through the more acceptable medium of Heathenism.



3) Most heathens seem to be atheists anyway. I mean, you can't seriously believe that those deities really exist! Why not go all the way and become true rationalists.
Finally, to the worthwhile question ;).

I've encountered such a spectrum of beliefs that are self-defined as "Heathenism" - diverse to the extent that what I believe is mocked by other Pagans and vice-versa. For example, one heathen I recently debated with found the concept of magick (under whatever alternative term) laughable, whereas I believe humans are able to affect the physical world through ritual and will.

Do the deities exist? It depends on your definition of 'exist'. For me, Paganism/Heathenism is essentially a more structured form of Shamanism. The core belief of Shamanism is that there are other 'realities' co-existing alongside our own but that our physical bodies are only normally tuned into this reality. I tend towards this belief (due to personal experiences), though am open-minded to other possibilities. The gods, for me, would be archetypal guides and teachers in the spirit-world. They may not appear to us with the familiar names we're taught to expect, but they are there nonetheless.

My life was a case of Christian > Atheist > Heathen. Atheism is the first port of call for free-thinkers who want a more fulfilling life philosophy. Paganism is often then discovered by those atheists who have an undying faith in the supernatural - a belief which is not automatically eradicated by a turn towards atheism.

[Hrafn]

I understand what you mean Fortis, and, in a way, I agree. I came to Heathenry as a student of Rāja Yoga and still have the utmost regard for the "upper level" spiritual philosophies and practices of India. I think what you're seeing right now with Heathenry is that since we're still in our infancy, most Heathens are still in the Vedic phase of Germanic religion. There are those, myself included, who are working at changing this so that our spiritual philosophies and practices will have the same efficiency and depth as Tantrika Laya Yoga and other highly evolved systems of spiritual actualization. It may not be for you yet, but keep an eye out. :)


Totally agree with you. I have almost the same story. I had parents who believed in Gods and who were into Bhakti Yoga. I have joined later on in my life Traditionalist Gaudiya Vaishnavas (after a brief stint with Iskcon cult) and lived in India as a monk.
My opinion nowadays is that i don't want to be part of any groups or affiliated with any society be it Pagan/Heathen or whatever they call themselves. Just before a week i got email from Dr. Sunic who wrote to me: ''Work and believe in yourself and tread the path alone''. That is what Dr. Sunic does, that is what Ernst Jünger did exactly. As much as i did believe in certain ''Gurus'' ,''Leaders'' etc. in my past, in the end i got realization that there was always something i couldn't agree upon or accept. Not because i am fussy, just because i always go further and do a research. I don't like to be static and stay in one place forever. Unfortunately many modern revivalists, reconstructionists and Asatru groups are and they also lack depth and academia.
Perhaps only ones i really like are Rune Gild and Germanische Glaubens Gemeinschaft (not Neonazi Artgemeinschaft) of Geza von Nemenyi.Geza is definitely person who is an intellectual and his books speak enough for themselves.

[Freomæg]

Unfortunately many modern revivalists, reconstructionists and Asatru groups are and they also lack academia.
It's for this reason that I describe myself as a 'Heathen' rather reluctantly. As you can see on my profile, I refer to my religion as 'old'. This is because I believe the lines between most of the pre-Christian mystic traditions were blurred and that one need not, then or now, confine oneself within such blurred divisions. The true Pagan is a spiritual truth-seeker and no teachings are therefore out of bounds. I take something from Shamanism, Gnosticism, the Occult, various Pagan traditions and even Luciferianism, to name a few - whatever knowledge I can get my hands on. I see these things not as conflicting beliefs but fragments of the ultimate truth. Yet - what I do find benefitial to myself is to explore these spiritual truths within the familiar context of Northern European spirituality. For example, if I'm studying Mesopotamian tradition, I look out for the bits which I can translate to be relevant to Northern European Paganism - the counterpart gods, the folklore, practices and predictions. It's usually very easy to do, for the concepts are mostly the same. In this way I'm able to explore a world of truth whilst remaining culturally 'pure', which I prefer - unlike those new-agers whom you might find wearing Ankhs pendants alongside Valknut ones.

[Jamt]

Hrafn, is that the Croatian Dr.Tomislav Sunc?

[Hrafn]

Hrafn, is that the Croatian Dr.Tomislav Sunc?

Yes it is.


In this way I'm able to explore a world of truth whilst remaining culturally 'pure', which I prefer - unlike those new-agers whom you might find wearing Ankhs pendants alongside Valknut ones.


Superb post.I just wanted to quote from that nice post the last bit i definitely more than agree. It is about New Agers. If i dislike somebody or something it is definitely New Age hodgepodge.

[Jamt]

Yes it is.

I am disappointed; I pictured Sunic as a traditional Catholic. :confused:

[Hrafn]

I am disappointed; I pictured Sunic as a traditional Catholic. :confused:

He doesn't explicitly calls himself a Pagan, Heathen or Christian or whatever people and organizations others like to bundle or connect him with.
Dr. Sunic works with people who are on his wavelength and is an preservationist and critic of post modern age.

[Nodens]

He doesn't explicitly calls himself a Pagan, Heathen or Christian or whatever people and organizations others like to bundle or connect him with.
Dr. Sunic works with people who are on his wavelength and is an preservationist and critic of post modern age.

His sympathies (http://es.geocities.com/sucellus23/563.htm) are still fairly clear.

[Óttar]

Firstly, I must point out that the notions of "peace", "love", and "universal brotherhood" are far from biblical precepts.

Sunc includes Hellenism in his pagan world view saying Europe looked toward it for inspiration, but with the Hellenistic period began the move away from the folkish Hellenic religion of the polis (City-State) to the cosmopolitan, imperial religions; the mystery cults, Eleusis, Isis, Dea Syria, Cybele, Monism etc.

I'd imagine that many in the folkist camp will label these Oriental aberrations or some such. :coffee:

Also, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" did not originate with Moses per se. It is the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi. Hammurabi, while a Semite, was still a pagan nonetheless.

[RenaRyuguu]

Hippies are modern Wiccans

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wXPOnW6tTI8/Uzq3WG4eJII/AAAAAAAAKy8/CbKR3yYihRU/s1600/2005+bewithced.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS05j44UKUU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOOFdNWPP04

http://static.tvgcdn.net/rovi/showcards/tvshow/100058/thumbs/16942947_1300x1733.jpg

[PaleoEuropean]

You got a point my friend

[RenaRyuguu]

You got a point my friend

http://olegif.com/bin/gifs/00/29/51.gif