Confused: Were Cumans Asians Mongoloid or Caucaosoid?

[ButlerKing]

1. It says one out of eleven of mtDNA haplogroup are Asian origin. That means only 9.09% Mongoloid on maternal admixture the rest are west Eurasian mtdna, there is no study on paternal or autosomal DNA.

2. But than the study claim 5 out 6 of the skeleton appeared more Asian than European


What the heck does this mean? I can't figure this out

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A genetic study was done on Cuman burials within Hungary and it was determined that they had substantially more western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages.[45] In a 2005 study by Erika Bogacsi-Szabo et al. of the mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) of the Cuman nomad population that migrated into the Carpathian basin during the 13th century, six haplogroups were revealed.




"One of these haplogroups belongs to the M lineage (haplogroup D) and is characteristic of Eastern Asia, but this is the second most frequent haplogroup in southern Siberia too. All the other haplogroups (H, V, U, U3, and JT) are West Eurasian, belonging to the N macrohaplogroup. Out of the eleven remains, four samples belonged to haplogroup H, two to haplogroup U, two to haplogroup V, and one each to the JT, U3, and D haplogroups. In comparison to the Cumans, modern Hungarian samples represent 15 haplogroups. All but one is a West Eurasian haplogroup [the remaining one is East Asian (haplogroup F)], but all belong to the N lineage. Four haplogroups (H, V, U*, JT), present in the ancient samples, can also be found in the modern Hungarians, but only for haplogroups H and V were identical haplotypes found. Haplogroups U3 and D occur exclusively in the ancient group, and 11 haplogroups (HV, U4, U5, K, J, J1a, T, T1, T2, W, and F) occur only in the modern Hungarian population. Haplogroup frequency in the modern Hungarian population is similar to other European populations, although haplogroup F is almost absent in continental Europe; therefore the presence of this haplogroup in the modern Hungarian population can reflect some past contribution."[46] "The results suggested that the Cumanians, as seen in the excavation at Csengele, were far from genetic homogeneity. Nevertheless, the grave artifacts are typical of the Cumanian steppe culture; and five of the six skeletons that were complete enough for anthropometric analysis appeared Asian rather than European (Horváth 1978, 2001), including two from the mitochondrial haplogroup H, which is typically European. It is interesting that the only skeleton for which anthropological examination indicated a partly European ancestry was that of the chieftain, whose haplotype is most frequently found in the Balkans."[46]




The study concluded that the mitochondrial motifs of Cumans from Csengele show the genetic admixtures with other populations rather than the ultimate genetic origins of the founders of Cuman culture. So the maternal lineages of a large part of the group would reflect the maternal lineage of those populations that had geographic connection with the Cumans during their migrations. Nevertheless, the Asian mitochondrial haplotype in Cu26 may still reflect the origins of the Cumans of Csengele. Considering genetic distances, Cumans ( of Csengele) are nearest to the Finnish, Komi and Turkish populations.[47]

[Roy]

Mongoloid and Asian (naturally)

[Smeagol]

''A genetic study was done on Cuman burials within Hungary and it was determined that they had substantially more western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages. In a 2005 study by Erika Bogacsi-Szabo et al. of the mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) of the Cuman nomad population that migrated into the Carpathian basin during the 13th century, six haplogroups were revealed.

"One of these haplogroups belongs to the M lineage (haplogroup D) and is characteristic of Eastern Asia, but this is the second most frequent haplogroup in southern Siberia too. All the other haplogroups (H, V, U, U3, and JT) are West Eurasian, belonging to the N macrohaplogroup. Out of the eleven remains, four samples belonged to haplogroup H, two to haplogroup U, two to haplogroup V, and one each to the JT, U3, and D haplogroups. In comparison to the Cumans, modern Hungarian samples represent 15 haplogroups. All but one is a West Eurasian haplogroup [the remaining one is East Asian (haplogroup F)], but all belong to the N lineage. Four haplogroups (H, V, U*, JT), present in the ancient samples, can also be found in the modern Hungarians, but only for haplogroups H and V were identical haplotypes found. Haplogroups U3 and D occur exclusively in the ancient group, and 11 haplogroups (HV, U4, U5, K, J, J1a, T, T1, T2, W, and F) occur only in the modern Hungarian population. Haplogroup frequency in the modern Hungarian population is similar to other European populations, although haplogroup F is almost absent in continental Europe; therefore the presence of this haplogroup in the modern Hungarian population can reflect some past contribution." "The results suggested that the Cumanians, as seen in the excavation at Csengele, were far from genetic homogeneity. Nevertheless, the grave artifacts are typical of the Cumanian steppe culture; and five of the six skeletons that were complete enough for anthropometric analysis appeared Asian rather than European (Horváth 1978, 2001), including two from the mitochondrial haplogroup H, which is typically European. It is interesting that the only skeleton for which anthropological examination indicated a partly European ancestry was that of the chieftain, whose haplotype is most frequently found in the Balkans."

The study concluded that the mitochondrial motifs of Cumans from Csengele show the genetic admixtures with other populations rather than the ultimate genetic origins of the founders of Cuman culture. So the maternal lineages of a large part of the group would reflect the maternal lineage of those populations that had geographic connection with the Cumans during their migrations. Nevertheless, the Asian mitochondrial haplotype in Cu26 may still reflect the origins of the Cumans of Csengele. Considering genetic distances, Cumans ( of Csengele) are nearest to the Finnish, Komi and Turkish populations.''

[TheForeigner]

I am also confused by the way wiki claims Cumans, Kypchaks and Khazars were described as fair skinned, light haired and blue eyed. I thought they were supposed to be dark turanids.

[Sora]

I think they were predominantly Caucasoid with slight but significant Mongoloid admixture

[TheForeigner]

I think they were predominantly Caucasoid with slight but significant Mongoloid admixture

But were they in large part light pigmented? I mean blue eyes, blond or red hair and fair skin don't sound like Turkic people to me.

[jackrussell]

But were they in large part light pigmented? I mean blue eyes, blond or red hair and fair skin don't sound like Turkic people to me.

:D

That is because you have difficulty accepting that one of the most ancient tribes of Eurasia can look Asian or European .


Logical fallacy is where you are at .

[Turul Karom]

Like most Central Asians, Cumans were a mix of Asiatic and European phenotypes. Some certainly could have looked more Asian or European based on their own family genetics, and who they married within (or outside of) their tribe. Based on genetic research, it would be safe to imagine the Western Eurasian look as most common. Cumans mixed with Hungarians on multiple occasions, and we have leaders who were either partial or half Cuman (Ladislaus IV the Cuman, for example). To be Cuman is to be part of the Hungarian nation and history, and helps to contribute to the fascinating Turkic legacy of the Magyars.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1xt4O9IGfg

[Sora]

But were they in large part light pigmented? I mean blue eyes, blond or red hair and fair skin don't sound like Turkic people to me.

Do you think that Turkic is equal to Mongoloid. Sorry but Turkic=/=Mongoloid. Turkics are various folk by physical appearance. So Turkics can be both European or Asian looking, or Eurasian looking

[Turul Karom]

Do you think that Turkic is equal to Mongoloid. Sorry but Turkic=/=Mongoloid. Turkics are various folk by physical appearance. So Turkics can be both European or Asian looking, or Eurasian looking

This is very correct. Detractors of Turkic peoples' unity and common culture will be quick to point out phenotype differences, or challenge the claim based on the all-or-nothing fallacy (such as all Turkic peoples must look East Asian, all Turkic peoples are fair skinned, etc). It is an easy claim to refute.

[TheForeigner]

[QUOTE=Turul Karom;4952697]Like most Central Asians, Cumans were a mix of Asiatic and European phenotypes. Some certainly could have looked more Asian or European based on their own family genetics, and who they married within (or outside of) their tribe. Based on genetic research, it would be safe to imagine the Western Eurasian look as most common. Cumans mixed with Hungarians on multiple occasions, and we have leaders who were either partial or half Cuman (Ladislaus IV the Cuman, for example). To be Cuman is to be part of the Hungarian nation and history, and helps to contribute to the fascinating Turkic legacy of the Magyars.


What genetic research proves they were pred. West Eurasian?

[TheForeigner]

I did not say they were Mongoloid or East Asian, but that I imagined them as mixed Turanids similar with Turkmen and Uzbeks. It's European or West Eurasian that I find hard to imagine Turkic people from Central Asia.

[Turul Karom]

What genetic research proves they were pred. West Eurasian?

Bogácsi-Szabó, E; Kalmár, T; Csányi, B; Tömöry, G; Czibula, A; Priskin, K; Horváth, F; Downes, C. S.; Raskó, I (October 2005). "Mitochondrial DNA of ancient Cumanians: culturally Asian steppe nomadic immigrants with substantially more western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages"

[Turul Karom]

I did not say they were Mongoloid or East Asian, but that I imagined them as mixed Turanids similar with Turkmen and Uzbeks. It's European or West Eurasian that I find hard to imagine Turkic people from Central Asia.

I'm not attempting to chastise you, specifically. Rather, I am critiquing some mistaken notions of what a Turkic or Turanid person is, as the casual idea of what an "Asian" is changes depending on your location in the West. To many, "Asian" reads as East Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese) and this creates what can be a problematic chain of logic, which looks like this: Turanids are Turkic, and Turkic peoples are Asians, therefore all Turanid people must look like East Asians such as the Han Chinese. Even modern Eurasian mixes of say, a French man and a Vietnamese woman are not "Turanid", as they are not descended from a common Turkic/Central Asian root people or culture. This leads to further entanglement of the issue of identity of Turanids in the Western mind, especially Turanids like various Balkan Turks or Magyars.

[jackrussell]

I did not say they were Mongoloid or East Asian, but that I imagined them as mixed Turanids similar with Turkmen and Uzbeks. It's European or West Eurasian that I find hard to imagine Turkic people from Central Asia.

I am a Turanid dude ; your knowledge about the looks of Turanid is incomplete.

[TheForeigner]

Bogácsi-Szabó, E; Kalmár, T; Csányi, B; Tömöry, G; Czibula, A; Priskin, K; Horváth, F; Downes, C. S.; Raskó, I (October 2005). "Mitochondrial DNA of ancient Cumanians: culturally Asian steppe nomadic immigrants with substantially more western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages"

Yes, but like Butlerking said there is no study of Y dna and autosomal dna and the anthropological study said 5 of 6 skeletons were more Asian than European.

[Turul Karom]

Yes, but like Butlerking said there is no study of Y dna and autosomal dna and the anthropological study said 5 of 6 skeletons were more Asian than European.

More work has been done in regards to the mtdna. Looking at the origins, one can see that the various Cumans would have varied in appearance. Please read again my statement: Cumans were a mix of Asiatic and European phenotypes. Some certainly could have looked more Asian or European based on their own family genetics, and who they married within (or outside of) their tribe. Now, let's use logical reasoning that as they moved west, this Eurasian phenotype would give way to predominantly European shifted appearances. Of course, one might argue "Cumans took brides as they moved.", but this would imply that what, there were no original female Cumans? Or did they just kick them all out in favor of Eurasian mtdna phenotype women? Of course not. Logic shows that as there were so many women with Eurasian mtdna, the phenotypes of this would follow as well from their children. No study states specifically "East Asian" Cuman appearance, either in women or men. R1b and R1a is also found all over Asia, which shows the spread of nomadic Eurasian R1 both through and via the multitudes of Turkic groups.

Also, the quote "more Asian than European" misconstrues East Asian with Asian in general, as the researchers don't define what reference group they use as "Asian". Therefore, your mind can lead you to think they are speaking of East Asians rather than Central Asian Turkic peoples.

[TheForeigner]

I already said I don't think they were East Asian, but rather mixed race turanids, like the Central Asians. And in the study they probably mean more Mongoloid when they say "more Asian". And please tell me what modern Turkic people has a very high proportion of people with blond hair and blue eyes.:rolleyes:

[Turul Karom]

I already said I don't think they were East Asian, but rather mixed race turanids, like the Central Asians. And in the study they probably mean more Mongoloid when they say "more Asian". And please tell me what modern Turkic people has a very high proportion of people with blond hair and blue eyes.:rolleyes:

We don't know that is what they meant. They could have said "Mongoloid" then, but they said "Asian". As Turkic peoples are "Asians", this could show that they matched the standard ones of the time as well. Modern Turkic people can have any color of eyes and hair. I don't get why that point is brought up by you here, as one can have quite the "Mongoloid" skeleton but have blond hair and blue eyes regardless.

[Marmara]

They were Asiatic, genetic research proves it.

[TheForeigner]

We don't know that is what they meant. They could have said "Mongoloid" then, but they said "Asian". As Turkic peoples are "Asians", this could show that they matched the standard ones of the time as well. Modern Turkic people can have any color of eyes and hair. I don't get why that point is brought up by you here, as one can have quite the "Mongoloid" skeleton but have blond hair and blue eyes regardless.

Well my intent was to question the notion that Cumans,Kypchaks and Khazars could have been predominantly or in large part light haired and eyed, considering they were Central Asian Turks. I know there are many Turks and Turkics with light hair and eyes, but no Turkic people has a particularly large proportion of such people. And yes there are even Turkics who are partially Mongoloid, but have light hair and eyes. I am only questioning that such peoples were dominantly blond or very largely so.

[Turul Karom]

Well my intent was to question the notion that Cumans,Kypchaks and Khazars could have been predominantly or in large part light haired and eyed, considering they were Central Asian Turks. I know there are many Turks and Turkics with light hair and eyes, but no Turkic people has a particularly large proportion of such people. And yes there are even Turkics who are partially Mongoloid, but have light hair and eyes. I am only questioning that such peoples were dominantly blond or very largely so.

Do you have a reason to believe they weren't then? Do you have a different study or first/second hand source describing the appearance of ancient Cumans, or from which we can derive their appearance with any degree of confidence?

The groups encountered could have been particularity blond and blue eyed for the time.

[TheForeigner]

Do you have a reason to believe they weren't then? Do you have a different study or first/second hand source describing the appearance of ancient Cumans, or from which we can derive their appearance with any degree of confidence?

The groups encountered could have been particularity blond and blue eyed for the time.

Well, Romanian historian Neagu Djuvara says they were of Turanid race and dark. He says an ancestor of Basarab, who was of Cuman origin, was called Negru Voda(black or dark prince or voivod) and that he was called that because he was dark skinned.

[Marmara]

Well my intent was to question the notion that Cumans,Kypchaks and Khazars could have been predominantly or in large part light haired and eyed, considering they were Central Asian Turks. I know there are many Turks and Turkics with light hair and eyes, but no Turkic people has a particularly large proportion of such people. And yes there are even Turkics who are partially Mongoloid, but have light hair and eyes. I am only questioning that such peoples were dominantly blond or very largely so.

Red headed blue eyed Khazars were recorded by Arabs. They probably emphasized on characteristics they lacked. Cumans is a different story, they might have been interbred with caucasoids.

[Nanushka]

Do you have a reason to believe they weren't then? Do you have a different study or first/second hand source describing the appearance of ancient Cumans, or from which we can derive their appearance with any degree of confidence?

The groups encountered could have been particularity blond and blue eyed for the time.

I may help with that

72241

from Turks in Russian Chronicles, Mualla Uydu Yucel, Türk Tarih Kurumu 2007

Here you can see Cumans entering Moscow

[Turul Karom]

Well, Romanian historian Neagu Djuvara says they were of Turanid race and dark. He says an ancestor of Basarab, who was of Cuman origin, was called Negru Voda(black or dark prince or voivod) and that he was called that because he was dark skinned.

Take a look at Buusra's image, and you will see their depictions. Also, was it really their skin, or the persona? There was a viking leader called "Ivar The Boneless" but he was surely not called this because he had no bones. Context matters.

[TheForeigner]

Take a look at Buusra's image, and you will see their depictions. Also, was it really their skin, or the persona? There was a viking leader called "Ivar The Boneless" but he was surely not called this because he had no bones. Context matters.

Well, I once read in a book that some European traveler saw a couple of blond Kurds and then he reported that Kurds are a largely blond people. And we also know ancient Greeks wrote of Thracians as being blond or red haired. Strange though that Russians, a heavily blond people, might describe Cumans as blond.

[Token]

A mix of west and east Eurasian.

[TheForeigner]

Another thing is that Tatars in Romania and part of the Tatars in Crimea are thought to be descended largely from Cumans. Well, I live in Dobrogea where we have Tatars and they look quite Asian. I don't think there is any blond among them.

[Marmara]

Another thing is that Tatars in Romania and part of the Tatars in Crimea are thought to be descended largely from Cumans. Well, I live in Dobrogea where we have Tatars and they look quite Asian. I don't think there is any blond among them.

They are descended from Kipchaks.

[TheForeigner]

They are descended from Kipchaks.

Weren't Kipchaks and Cumans almost the same people? "Historians suggest that inhabitants of the mountainous parts of Crimea lying to the central and southern parts (the Tats), and those of the Southern coast of Crimea (the Yalıboyu) were the direct descendants of the Pontic Greeks, Armenians, Scythians, Ostrogoths (Crimean Goths) and Kipchaks along with the Cumans while the latest inhabitants of the northern steppe represent the descendants of the Nogai Horde of the Black Sea nominally subjects of the Crimean Khan.[18][19] It is largely assumed that the Tatarization process that mostly took place in the 16th century brought a sense of cultural unity through the blending of the Greeks, Armenians, Italians and Ottoman Turks of the southern coast, Goths of the central mountains, and Turkic-speaking Kipchaks and Cumans of the steppe and forming of the Crimean Tatar ethnic group.[20] However, the Cuman language is considered the direct ancestor of the current language of the Crimean Tatars with possible incorporations of the other languages like Crimean Gothic.[21][22][23][24]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

[jackrussell]

Weren't Kipchaks and Cumans almost the same people? "Historians suggest that inhabitants of the mountainous parts of Crimea lying to the central and southern parts (the Tats), and those of the Southern coast of Crimea (the Yalıboyu) were the direct descendants of the Pontic Greeks, Armenians, Scythians, Ostrogoths (Crimean Goths) and Kipchaks along with the Cumans while the latest inhabitants of the northern steppe represent the descendants of the Nogai Horde of the Black Sea nominally subjects of the Crimean Khan.[18][19] It is largely assumed that the Tatarization process that mostly took place in the 16th century brought a sense of cultural unity through the blending of the Greeks, Armenians, Italians and Ottoman Turks of the southern coast, Goths of the central mountains, and Turkic-speaking Kipchaks and Cumans of the steppe and forming of the Crimean Tatar ethnic group.[20] However, the Cuman language is considered the direct ancestor of the current language of the Crimean Tatars with possible incorporations of the other languages like Crimean Gothic.[21][22][23][24]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars


Are you questioning that Cumans + Kipchaks weren't as described or that they were not Turks ?

[TheForeigner]

Are you questioning that Cumans + Kipchaks weren't as described or that they were not Turks ?

Only that they could not have been as blond as Russians or like that. I say they looked much like modern Tatars in Romania. That is, dark haired, brown and slanted eyed, yellowish skin.

[Nanushka]

Well, I once read in a book that some European traveler saw a couple of blond Kurds and then he reported that Kurds are a largely blond people. And we also know ancient Greeks wrote of Thracians as being blond or red haired. Strange though that Russians, a heavily blond people, might describe Cumans as blond.

Turks in the first Russian Chronicles dates back to XI and XII. centuries so its a first hand and genuine source, you cant compare it with traveler diaries (you can provide sources though)

That russians describe Cumans blonde is not strange for us as we know and study our history, their heritage is still in their land including Kazakhstan, northern Caucasia, Pontic steppes, and eastern Europe

[jackrussell]

Only that they could not have been as blond as Russians or like that. I say they looked much like modern Tatars in Romania. That is, dark haired, brown and slanted eyed, yellowish skin.

Why do you look for evidence that excludes Turks being blonde ?

That is rather a political choice ; surely one can see that .

[TheForeigner]

Why do you look for evidence that excludes Turks being blonde ?

That is rather a political choice ; surely one can see that .

So then you think Cumans, Khazars and Kipchaks were of mostly Scythian descent? Only that would explain their supposed light pigmentation.

[jackrussell]

So then you think Cumans, Khazars and Kipchaks were of mostly Scythian descent? Only that would explain their supposed light pigmentation.

Problem with your narrative is that it is a politically designed narrative to diminishes the role and existence of Turk .

Notion that Turks only 1000 years old is at the core of this narrative you are following .

Evidence which goes against the narrative which you seem to be adherent of ; is excluded on purpose .

Those who tamed the horse and shaped the steel are the ancient peoples of Eurasian landmass .

It s obvious that the academia in the west is purposely diminishing the Turk ; the eternal Nemesis .

have you any idea how corrupt the academia in it's nature ?

how politically comprimised they are with the unsustainable stories about " world history " ?

[ButlerKing]

But were they in large part light pigmented? I mean blue eyes, blond or red hair and fair skin don't sound like Turkic people to me.


Uralic people were also described as blue eyes, blonde hair.

Nenets were described as blonde hair, blue eyes by Chinese dating back 16th century.

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/rf-dudinka-06.jpg
https://www.secretcompass.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Screen-Shot-2016-12-14-at-20.13.13.png

[ButlerKing]

I think they were predominantly Caucasoid with slight but significant Mongoloid admixture

Their mtDNA shows 91% West Eurasian this means they are absolutely predominate western Eurasian in the half side of the haplogroup. I couldn't find any Y-DNA or autosomal DNA study.

It also says 5 out 6 skeletons had skeletons closer to Asians than Europeans.

Either they are predominant Asian or they are predominate European Caucasoid genetically who look more Asian like the Nogais ( who's DNA is only 32% Mongoloid but yet look very Asian ).

[ButlerKing]

More work has been done in regards to the mtdna. Looking at the origins, one can see that the various Cumans would have varied in appearance. Please read again my statement: Cumans were a mix of Asiatic and European phenotypes. Some certainly could have looked more Asian or European based on their own family genetics, and who they married within (or outside of) their tribe. Now, let's use logical reasoning that as they moved west, this Eurasian phenotype would give way to predominantly European shifted appearances. Of course, one might argue "Cumans took brides as they moved.", but this would imply that what, there were no original female Cumans? Or did they just kick them all out in favor of Eurasian mtdna phenotype women? Of course not. Logic shows that as there were so many women with Eurasian mtdna, the phenotypes of this would follow as well from their children. No study states specifically "East Asian" Cuman appearance, either in women or men. R1b and R1a is also found all over Asia, which shows the spread of nomadic Eurasian R1 both through and via the multitudes of Turkic groups.

Also, the quote "more Asian than European" misconstrues East Asian with Asian in general, as the researchers don't define what reference group they use as "Asian". Therefore, your mind can lead you to think they are speaking of East Asians rather than Central Asian Turkic peoples.


Yes, some were Caucasoid, some were more Mongoloid , Mongoloid-Europoid but all would have been genetically mixed.


I wonder if blonde hair, blue eye eye Turks are related to Uralic people who are also partially Mongoloid to different degrees. EVEN THE SCYTHIANS famous for their blonde hair showed more genetic relations with Uralic people than the other ancient central Asian Iranians tribes who were described with typically dark hair, brown eyes. Scythians inhabited the northern portion of Central Asia while the other Iranian tribes inhabited the southern portions of central Asia, apparently they weren't as genetically related as we though. On a genetic plot Scythians were like 2/3 Uralic and 1/3 Iranian on a genetic study ( never mind if they spoke Iranian languages or were considered Iranian people )

Maybe the Cumans were something like this....

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/7e/50/99/7e50994d20817f29eb1eb8b1d09e8a73--geography-cultural.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Khanty_family.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Why do you look for evidence that excludes Turks being blonde ?

That is rather a political choice ; surely one can see that .

Properly dude to the fact that Central Asia, Azerbaijan, Turkey are not very blonde countries.

https://s21.postimg.org/n1fycevnr/europe-hair0223--light-h.png

[Mingle]

Cuman and Kipchak are synonyms. Cumans were Mongoloids. They likely had a bit more West Eurasian blood than Kazakhs do, but probably not significantly more.

[TheForeigner]

What about Khazars? Any genetic or anthropological studies on them? And what are those people you say look like Cumans, Butlerking?

[ButlerKing]

What about Khazars? Any genetic or anthropological studies on them?

Anthropology

"Studies of the physical remains, such as skulls at Sarkel, have revealed a mixture of Slavic, other European, and a few Mongolian types.[91] "

No one knows for sure if the Khazars were Turkic or assimilated/Turkified people who adopted Jewish religion.


Demographics[edit]

It has been estimated that from 25 to 28 distinct ethnic groups made up the population of the Khazar Qağanate, aside from the ethnic elite. The ruling elite seems to have been constituted out of nine tribes/clans, themselves ethnically heterogeneous, spread over perhaps nine provinces or principalities, each of which would have been allocated to a clan.[68] ~

Here is a facial reconstruction of a Khazars elite

http://i49.tinypic.com/33ua7sw.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2ypeotk.jpg

[ButlerKing]

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.kunstkamera.ru/files/lib/978-5-88431-152-7/978-5-88431-152-7_06.pdf&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A5%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B7%25D0%2 %20%205B0%25D1%2580%25D1%258B%2B%25D0%25BC%25D0%25 BE%25D%20%200%25BD%25D0%25B3%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%2 5D0%25BE%25D%20%200%25B8%25D0%25B4%25D0%25BD%25D1% 258B%25D0%25B9%26h%20%20l%3Den%26tbo%3Dd%26biw%3D1 163%26bih%3D617&sa=X&ei=tBogUfvkJsfNtAb8nIDACw&ved=0CDAQ7gEwAA


ROUGH RUSSIAN TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH FROM GOOGLE.

59 Ì.Volgograd For the population of the Khazar Khanate typical ethnic heterogeneity gal and racial composition, as reflected in the written, archaeological skih and anthropological sources. Written sources in determining the physical type Khazars raznore chivy. On the one hand, they describe them as carriers of Mongoloid complexes. This information is full of Caucasian Chronicle. With On the other hand, they are defined as the carrier light pigmentation s ropeoidnyh types. This feature gives the Khazars Arab authors. In the study of early medieval monuments revealed watering invariance of the burial rite saltovomayatskih complexes. Scientists trying to associate a specific funeral rites to a specific ethnic catfish. Beginning with the work of II Lyapushkina archaeologists in the study of these sites trying to find etnomarkiruyuschie symptoms. Until recently, , virtually all scientists perceived as an established postulate thesis of two local variants saltovomayatskoy culture: Steppe, localized in the lower reaches of the Don, and forest - near Northern Donets. First variant attributed Bulgarian prois walking, and the second - Alania. Now science is disputed only Bulgarian identity zlivkinskogo option saltovomayatskoy culture tours [Afanasiev, pops, 2004]. Appears more and more supporters Khazars tion attributes steppe sites. This releases etnodiffe rentsiruyuschie markers Khazar burial rite. Anthropological data also showed morphological heterogeneity of the population saltovomayatskoy culture at the two pain Shih races: Caucasoid and Mongoloid. Mongoloid features sharper pro are in the southern regions of the Khazar Khaganate, the tombs of the Lower Volga and the lower Don . Adds Xia impression that the people of the early Middle Ages on racial recognition stone was more Mongoloid than the population of the late Middle Ages. Currently accumulated mass of anthropological material funerary complexes of the Lower Volga and the Lower Don. This region in anthropological terms, is poorly understood. Most anthropogenic topological interpretation of the obtained material from the excavation Sarkel -


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60 White Vezha. This small group of skulls, derived from the early pogrom beny Sarkel alleged construction of the fortress. VV Ginsburg showed that in this series, along with Caucasians brachicranial vstre chayutsya Mongoloid skull [Ginzburg, 1963]. The two racial complex are in virtually all series of the time, but in the tombs, localized in the steppe zone, the skull with Mongoloid admixture are less common than in the tombs of the steppe zone [Ginsburg, 1963 Con duktorova 1984; Balabanov, 2004; Batieva, 2004, etc.]. To determine the anthropological features of ethnic Khazars formed the sample obtained from the complexes of the type Sokolovskaya beam, the first type of burial, and the type of "late Sivashovki", the second type burials. Kulturnotipologicheskoe distribution burials performed Volgograd satisfied researcher EV Kruglov 1 . Of the material, obtained from the burial grounds of the Lower Volga and the Lower Don. The average performance group obtained from the first burial type has mixed mongoloidnoevropeoidnymi features and IME em srednedlinnuyu brachicranial and wide skull. Height average skull, skull base srednedlinnoe and wide, broad forehead cue, flat and sloping, zatylochnotemennoy index in the value tions characteristic of Mongoloid populations [Benevolenskaya, 1980]. The face is broad, almost high, moderately flat in the horizontal plane bone, nose high and wide, as wide orbit, but srednevyso Kaya, a wide noseband and medium-high, and nasal bones sredneshirokie and high, the average angle of protrusion of the nose. Kraniotip sample obtained from a second type of burial is different Caucasoid combinations and characterized the structure of the mesomorphic cranium, which mezokranna; base his long and medium wide; sredneshirokaya frontal bone, and sharply angled profiled. Zatylochnotemennoy index is within the values ​​characteristic Caucasoid populations, facial skeleton also has strictly mesomorphic eniem with sharp horizontal profile, the nose, bridge of the nose and nasal bones high and sredneshirokie; nose angle to the line profile is sharp. Female skulls from the graves of the first type are more Mongoloid Stu, than men, and the women a series of burials of the second type with Brahim Cranes skull and facial skeleton slightly flattened at average horizontal level. Researchers are paying special attention to the attributes of the so-called 1 The first group consists mainly of Sokolova graves like beams - with lining, rarely with catacombs, in the long walls of the input holes. The second group - in memory nicknames such as "late Sivashovki" - graves with steps along both long sides and podboyaminishami in narrow walls.


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61 burials in mounds with vnutrikurgannymi ditches, so when Ofori mlenii samples to account for this feature. It should be noted that all of the groups, in whatever combination they do not form valis possess extraordinary intragroup polymorphism. And all featured craniological observed widespread variation cations, and the standard deviations are too high in comparison with values tions given in the methodological guide for craniometry [Alekseev, Debets, 1964]. And in the first and second groups of monuments are found as s ropeoidnye and Mongoloid mix as in those derived from ground burial under barrows and graves. In addition to differences in the level distribution of the first order, in a series of stand types and proportion brachicranial hokrannyh Caucasians. The share of long-headed Caucasoids in the second group burials and a group of underground tombs more important than in the first and in the a group of tombs beneath barrows [Balabanov, 2004; Batieva, 2004]. When comparing the investigated series of more or less synchronous group E in the first place the entire set of series is divided into two parts, featuring seanmcsean [B]racially: the first - a group with Mongoloid features E, and the second part - a Caucasoid. The test sample of the first type burials, together with earlier groups of Sarkel, zlivkinskogo Mogilny ka and some series Early Turkic population fall into the first group ny. Men's selection of the second type of burial is in the neighborhood of Caucasian series of bitter Beams Zmeyskaya, Chir Yurt etc. So, all total, the local series and the series formed bathrooms on the specifics of the funeral rites and the local by urochennosti extremely heterogeneous. Skull obtained from the grave nicks Khazar time the Lower Volga and the lower Don, at sea fologicheskim qualities are very similar. Both series meet Odie Nakov cranial combinations dominated mongoloidnoevrope oidnye mestizos. Do people use both traditional burial tion, under barrows and burial ground burials, also fixes etsya evropeoidnomongoloidny mixed type. Kraniotip skulls derived from the first type of burial, combines a set of features characterizing thorns mongoloidnoevropeoidnyh mestizos, and the second type - mezocranial Caucasians. On individual turtles with metisnym type mon holoidal features show through much more clearly than Caucasoid. Descent stvo zlivkinskoy series with sarkelskoy and with a series of first type pogrom beny, perhaps due to the presence of the same morphological combination or Khazar domination, or Bulgarian components Comrade. It is preferable to think of the Khazar as to VIII-IX centuries. Bulgarians as ethnic and political power is broken, and started playing the Khazars major role in the eastern plains

[Turul Karom]

Properly dude to the fact that Central Asia, Azerbaijan, Turkey are not very blonde countries.

https://s21.postimg.org/n1fycevnr/europe-hair0223--light-h.png

These sources about them being blond are from the past, yet is that image you posted not based on modern populations? Most Cumans are gone from this earth, and nearly all today are mixed into us.

[TheForeigner]

Khazars elite looked quite Mongoloid or maybe Turanid.

[Mingle]

These sources about them being blond are from the past, yet is that image you posted not based on modern populations? Most Cumans are gone from this earth, and nearly all today are mixed into us.

Cuman was just an alternate name for Kipchak in European languages. They aren't gone.

[ButlerKing]

These sources about them being blond are from the past, yet is that image you posted not based on modern populations? Most Cumans are gone from this earth, and nearly all today are mixed into us.

Foreigner was talking about Turks having blonde hair isn't a typical trait and I agreed with that. I don't know what Cumans looked like but I also believed a large portion of them didn't have blonde hair. I think ancient/medieval historical people exaggerated the percent of people with blonde hair. Like Indians who used to exaggerate an enemies army of 1 million when they were around 100,000.

The ancient Romans described the Germanic people as blonde hair people/tribes but this isn't true because there are more brown hair Germans

[Turul Karom]

Cuman was just an alternate name for Kipchak in European languages. They aren't gone.

I'm talking about self-identified Cumans. Who use the term "Cuman". Even Hungary has Cuman names and regions throughout the country. We do not call them "Kipchaks". That is not my point anyway; I was talking about the relevance of the image to the subject of ancient Cuman hair color.

[Turul Karom]

Foreigner was talking about Turks having blonde hair isn't a typical trait and I agreed with that. I don't know what Cumans looked like but I also believed a large portion of them didn't have blonde hair. I think ancient/medieval historical people exaggerated the percent of people with blonde hair. Like Indians who used to exaggerate an enemies army of 1 million when they were around 100,000.

The ancient Romans described the Germanic people as blonde hair people/tribes but this isn't true because there are more brown hair.

I think you are confused with my point. I am saying maybe they just looked more blond and blue eyed in the past, so using the modern charts for modern populations after hundreds and hundreds of years of mixing (as nomads are usually prone to do) with different populations, this average image of a "Cuman" has changed.

[ButlerKing]

I think you are confused with my point. I am saying maybe they just looked more blond and blue eyed in the past, so using the modern charts for modern populations after hundreds and hundreds of years of mixing (as nomads are usually prone to do) with different populations, this average image of a "Cuman" has changed.

I agree Cumans no longer exist and there is no modern population that can represent what their physical type was like. The thing we all want to know is what they look liked and also how many of them were really blonde hair, blue eyes? Did historians described them as blonde hair/blue eyes based on a few or a majority ? Also did they ignored the Cumans with black hair ? even the blondest population of Europe always have a decent percent of people of dark hair. It's hard to believe Cumans only had blonde hair, blue eyes. I think they were exaggerated too much.

Chinese describe Uyghurs as blue eyed/green eye people but this is wrong because most have dark eyes

Medieval Indians aswell as British historians also described the Burusho people or the people who live in the Kashmir regions as blue eye/blonde hair. This is inccorect. Maybe 20-30% of them have those traits but the 70-80% majority do not.

[Turul Karom]

I agree Cumans no longer exist and there is no modern population that can represent what their physical type was like. The thing we all want to know is what they look liked and also how many of them were really blonde hair, blue eyes? Did historians described them as blonde hair/blue eyes based on a few or a majority ? Also did they ignored the Cumans with black hair ? even the blondest population of Europe always have a decent percent of people of dark hair. It's hard to believe Cumans only had blonde hair, blue eyes. I think they were exaggerated too much.

Well, they exist culturally and ethnically in Hungary, though to what degree is debated. I think that modern Hungarians would be the closest approximation, as many Cumans settled here.


Chinese describe Uyghurs as blue eyed/green eye people but this is wrong because most have dark eyes

The ones I have met have all had colorful eyes. Though that is just my experience, and not a study. I'd think that just looking at pictures of them would be more or less just as anecdotal, if not worse.


Medieval Indians aswell as British historians also described the Burusho people or the people who live in the Kashmir regions as blue eye/blonde hair. This is inccorect. Maybe 20-30% of them have those trait but the 70-80% majority do not.

I cannot speak for the accuracy of this, as I don't research this population.

[ButlerKing]

Indians also described Kalash as white skinned, blue eye people.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/01316d83b14a2e59b5c0a850fe45850f/tumblr_od45q9Bb1J1roqv59o1_500.png


While it's true a significant portion of them are light skinned and blue eyes but this is still not true for the majority. Although Indians had always described them with those traits , the reality is many of them can be just as dark as north Indians, it's just the other half have lighter skinned by no means they are as exaggerated as historical records suggest they are.

It's like the Indian historians completely ignored the ones that look like these aswell which I can say represent 50% or slightly more.

Also there are many many many many many North Indians with lighter skinned than these

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qsl_MpdGv_o/SpLxZ0vtPUI/AAAAAAAAARU/W8p7x0P6fow/s320/1.jpg
http://zahanat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/kalash-ppl.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Well, they exist culturally and ethnically in Hungary, though to what degree is debated. I think that modern Hungarians would be the closest approximation, as many Cumans settled here.



The ones I have met have all had colorful eyes. Though that is just my experience, and not a study. I'd think that just looking at pictures of them would be more or less just as anecdotal, if not worse.



I cannot speak for the accuracy of this, as I don't research this population.



It is hard to say if Hungarians are closest or not because even the Cumans of Hungarians are already mixed with the local population and I don't think there any cuman women back than. Every ethnic group that migrates without male or female of the same ethnicity always loses their genetics especially when it's after a thousand years later.

[Turul Karom]

It is hard to say if Hungarians are closest or not because even the Cumans of Hungarians are already mixed with the local population and I don't think there any cuman women back than. Every ethnic group that migrates without male or female of the same ethnicity always loses their genetics especially when it's after a thousand years later.

No Cuman women? Really? I find that hard to believe.

Still, the concept you might be thinking of is "genetic drift", which of course happens to the populations due to war/displacement and migration. The male Cumans were certainly suffering from combat losses, and the women were then obligated to have children with either the assimilated or the survivors. This leads to genetic drift as well, and if anything can show how the mtdna of a population can have more weight at times for determining traits.

[ButlerKing]

No Cuman women? Really? I find that hard to believe.

Still, the concept you might be thinking of is "genetic drift", which of course happens to the populations due to war/displacement and migration. The male Cumans were certainly suffering from combat losses, and the women were then obligated to have children with either the assimilated or the survivors. This leads to genetic drift as well, and if anything can show how the mtdna of a population can have more weight at times for determining traits.

Well I would assume there is no Cuman based on the genetic study they already posted

" The study concluded that the mitochondrial motifs of Cumans from Csengele show the genetic admixtures with other populations rather than the ultimate genetic origins of the founders of Cuman culture. So the maternal lineages of a large part of the group would reflect the maternal lineage of those populations that had geographic connection with the Cumans during their migrations. Nevertheless, the Asian mitochondrial haplotype in Cu26 may still reflect the origins of the Cumans of Csengele. Considering genetic distances.........."[47]

[ButlerKing]

The ones I have met have all had colorful eyes. Though that is just my experience, and not a study. I'd think that just looking at pictures of them would be more or less just as anecdotal, if not worse.




How many Uyghurs had you met ?

[Turul Karom]

Well I would assume there is no Cuman based on the genetic study they already posted

" The study concluded that the mitochondrial motifs of Cumans from Csengele show the genetic admixtures with other populations rather than the ultimate genetic origins of the founders of Cuman culture. So the maternal lineages of a large part of the group would reflect the maternal lineage of those populations that had geographic connection with the Cumans during their migrations. Nevertheless, the Asian mitochondrial haplotype in Cu26 may still reflect the origins of the Cumans of Csengele. Considering genetic distances.........."[47]

Send me a link of the data and their charts, images, etc that you are looking at. You can PM them to me if you'd like.

[Turul Karom]

How many Uyghurs had you met ?

Roughly 20 or so; they seem brown/dark brown haired usually.

[ButlerKing]

Roughly 20 or so; they seem brown/dark brown haired usually.

Well I haven seen many of them blue/green eye but most of them always in individual pictures. In group photos most of them have black hair and dark brown eyes but sometimes appearing someone with blue/green/hazel eyes

If I have to judge I'll say 9-10% of them have blue/green eyes and 20% light brown/hazel eyes but 70-71% of them eyes have very dark eyes some are as black as the vortex.

This is what generally see from them

https://people.cs.pitt.edu/~mehmud/gallery/people/images/Uyghur_kids2.jpg
http://www.etours.cn/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/38.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/www.farwestchina.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/shahrizoda.jpg?resize=420%2C359

[Mikula]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT6GMaYJjqY

[Freeroostah]

Blond Turanid people, kinda like Russian Tatars

[Leto]

They may have been light, at least some of them. I think they resembled Tatars or maybe Bashkirs.

[Token]

Mixed.

[Leto]

They probably looked like Elnar, a former TA member from Russia who was a mix of Turkic and Finno-Ugric ancestry
Around 25% Mongoloid
https://i.ibb.co/R0NP4gS/2m4u60x.png