Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?

[Loki]

Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe? (http://www.mongolia-web.com/content/view/2084/154/)

Thursday, 13 November 2008 16:08
By Edward Dutton

Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland. The Western-looking academic elite have done all that they can to suppress it and academics that still contend that Finns have ‘Mongoloid origins’ are cast into the wilderness in a ferocious dispute.

Until very recently, Finns were encouraged to see themselves either as ‘eastern’ or at least ‘between east and west.’ It was in the 1790, when Sweden ruled Finland, that German anthropologist J. F. Blumenbach compared Finnish, Sami (the Arctic reindeer herders) and Mongolian skulls and concluded that the Finns were ‘mongoloid’ and not ‘white’ like the Swedes or Finland’s Swedish-speaking aristocracy. This was widely accepted and led to the Turanian theory – that both the Finns and Sami had originally come from the East – as well as strengthening the view, according to Finland-Swede sociologist Nina af Enehjelm, that Finns were somehow ‘other’ and even ‘inferior.’ The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic and Finnish behaviour patterns to those of the Japanese.

Finland-Swede linguist M. A. Castren added to this in 1840s when he investigated the Finnish language and tried to understand which languages were related to the seemingly isolated tongue. He found that Sami, Estonian and Hungarian were from the same family but so were a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari. And even languages like Mongolian and Greenlandic seemed to have a similar grammatical structure. This led to the ‘Migration Theory,’ arguing the Finns arrived in Europe from Mongolia around three thousand years ago and finally got to Finland 2000 years ago. The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’ Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes, more than any other European nation. Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.

And in 2003, Slovenian geneticist Andrej Marusic observed that the Finnish propensity to alcoholism could be explained by the ADH22 gene ‘which is common in Eastern peoples but almost unheard of Europe.’

There is, he argued, a ‘J Curve’ where this gene is found which parallels areas where Finnish (and related languages) are spoken. For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols. The Mongols have not traditionally consumed strong alcohol whereas Europeans have for thousands of years, developing a genetic resistance to it.’

However, since a symposium in the 1980s it has become more common – especially in Finland – to argue that Finns are completely Western, with what is called the ‘Continuity Theory.’ According to this view, Finns are ‘Proto-European’ and arrived in Finland between 6000 and 11000 years ago and they arrived from the south. The Finnish ‘mongoloid look’ is explained by Finns being genetically isolated and so retaining the adaptations to the cold of the earliest Europeans. There is even an Estonian anthropologist who argues that the Migration occurred from West to East, making the Mongolians descendants of the Finns. But this new-found ‘European-ness’ has been especially convenient for the Finnish elite.

According to Finnish anthropologist Pertti Anttonen, in his book Tradition Through Modernity, Finns are ‘insecure’ because of historical perceptions of their being ‘not European’ and so ‘inferior.’ He argues that, whatever the symposium concluded in the 1980s, until the 1990s Finland was under the influence of the Soviet Union so being a bit ‘eastern’ was useful. This was reflected in the English-language book about Finland, published every ten years or so by a Finnish publisher, called A History of Finland. From its first publication in 1963 up to 2003, Finns were described as partially ‘Eastern’ in some way. Suddenly in the 2003 addition, all discussion of the eastern origins was dropped from the book.

Anttonen also highlights the work of Finnish historian Prof. Aira Kemiläinen. Now dead, she attempted to persuade Finns that they were ‘European.’ Of the Mongol look she claimed, ‘in fact this book does not exist in Finland’ without providing any evidence for its dismissal, branded academic opponents as ‘racists’, ignored the latest genetic scholarship and, bizarrely, attempted to argue that Finns should be seen as ‘European’ because they were ‘educated.’

‘Ideas of race and civilization are linked, as the “Western Genetic Heritage” of the Finnish population is used as an argument for Finland belonging to Western Civilization,’ summarises Anttonen. He felt that the book was more nationalistic than real scholarship but inexplicably it as published by the Finnish Literature Society, the main Finnish academic publisher.

The Finnish Literature Society has long been criticised for being influenced by a Finnish nationalist agenda. Finland historian William Wilson argued in 1976 that the society was heavily influenced by extreme Finnish nationalism and that it published scholarship on the Finnish folklore epic Kalevala knowing that it reflected a nationalist agenda rather than what was justifiable. It was founded to promote Finnish literature back when Finnish was not even an official language in the, at that time, Russian Duchy and so the now government-funded publisher has always had some kind of nationalist agenda.

And the current view with the Finnish elite is that Finns are Western. As Anttonen puts it, ‘The emphasis on the Western-ness of the Finns is a recent phenomenon’ rendering Finland’s joining the European Union a ‘return to Europe.’ This leaves those who still argue that Finns are originally from Mongolia in the academic wilderness,

Prof. Kalevi Wiik cannot get his genetic work on Finnish origins published with the Finnish Literature Society despite it being published in international academic journals.

‘It would be impossible to publish with them,’ he says of the world’s dominant academic publisher on Finnish culture. ‘They don’t believe in the genetic view and they disregard the genetic facts.’

Wiik recalls how his theories have been met with ‘anger. I kept a big file on it. I was accused of producing voodoo science in one newspaper article!’ He was also accused of having ‘right-wing supporters’ by another emotional critic.

‘The Finns have around a third Germanic genes, a third Baltic genes and a third genes from the east. These are the genetic facts!’ he insists, though the idea that Finnish babies have the ‘Mongol Spot’ seems to be exaggerated. Wiik also argues that Finnish men carry Mongoloid genes to a greater extent than Finnish women and that most of Europe must have spoken a Finnish-type language around the time of the last Ice Age with Finland retaining its language due to isolation from Indo-European invaders.

But at the moment, Wiik’s views don’t seem to fit with how the Finnish academic establishment wants Finland to see itself. Kemiläinen’s book ignored his work completely and even Anttonen terms him ‘controversial.’ Finns were always told they were ‘between east and west’ but now, in the wake of the Cold War, they are being told they are ‘Western.’

For 78 year-old the ferocity of the debate of Finland’s ‘Mongol origins’ proves, whatever Finland’s origins, that Finns are very insecure about whether or not they’re really European. ‘The idea that we Finns are Mongoloid is still with us,’ he says.

Dr Edward Dutton is a British freelance journalist and academic based in Finland. He is currently finishing a book on Finnish culture called The Finnuit.

[Absinthe]

I :love: Mongolians!! :thumbs Must be my anatolian goat herder genes talking :icon_ask:

[Fortis in Arduis]

I :love: Mongolians!! :thumbs Must be my anatolian goat herder genes talking :icon_ask:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/lincolnshire/content/images/2006/05/26/may06_gallery_51_352x470.jpg

Hey there... :heartbea:

[ikki]

I :love: Mongolians!! :thumbs Must be my anatolian goat herder genes talking :icon_ask:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89tCXxRoJbo :D
& http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wHbIWH_NGc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw9hizi5heM and finally the best, another goat herder :love: :D

[Sarmata]

Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway[

Hi! At first I thought this thread must come from Hors, what a supprise:eek:.
27% It's pretty much...is this source reliable? So maybe Gobineau was right, he wrote some nonsences(?) about Finnic-Mongols.

[Poltergeist]

Hail the racial fetish!

Furthermore, why should someone insist on being genetically 100% European (though it's not even clear what being "genetically European" truly means), with an aim of "justifying" their belonging to today's EU, the "west"? In other words, I don't understand someone's insistance in proving he is truly Zeropean.

[lei.talk]

27% It's pretty much...is this source reliable?

So maybe Gobineau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau) was right, he wrote some nonsense (?) about Finnic-Mongols.do you refer to the oft-quoted sentence-fragment
from The Inequality of Human Races (http://books.google.com/books?id=JeM_1BCeffAC&printsec=titlepage&#v=onepage&q=&f=false):
...by the yellow [Mongolian race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid_race)] the Altaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_people), Mongol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols), Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns) and Tartar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) branches.
*

[ikki]

Hail the racial fetish!

Furthermore, why should someone insist on being genetically 100% European (though it's not even clear what being "genetically European" truly means), with an aim of "justifying" their belonging to today's EU, the "west"? In other words, I don't understand someone's insistance in proving he is truly Zeropean.

Its a old question as to where finland belongs after all the centuries of colonialism.

its an anecdote, but here it is:
"swedes we are not, russians we do not want to be, let us be finns."

http://users.skynet.be/gentinsuomiklubi/images/vaakuna.gif
The finnish arms.

Notice the lion is standing on a eastern sabre.. while striking with a straight western sword westwards aswell. I suppose americans would partially understand this with their rattler "step not onto me".
The big difference being that for us those invasions and occasional near complete genocides are a very real thing.


Anyway, lets be europeans is just the "russians we do not want to be" expressed.


That said, when we head southwest, britain, france etc being the usual destinations... there is a great deal of culture shock.... ruins as in every building not in shining shape, trash littering the streets... and this means not just the occasional tossed paper (finns who see such will sometimes pick it up.. take to a trashcan... and give a verbal beating to the punk), no whole trashbags lie out there smelly and horrible.
The real shocks with utter and complete disbelief come with walled in parks, that having fences around forests is somehow legal and the inability for a stranger to stand up for another.

here i could mention that its way easier to get someone to house and feed you for free.. than get that person to give 1 euro :D

[Motörhead Remember Me]

By Edward Dutton
Ed Dutton is a pretentious anthropologist known for his bizarre conclusions that he draws from misinterpreting sources and using hearsay.


Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland.
It is not controversial in Finland, but it have been used as the blackjack against Finns by mainly Swedes in the late 19th and early 20th century to dismiss Finns as a non equal partner in politics.


The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, Yeah sure... Mongoloids everywhere
there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic
The only person I know of who have compared Finnish religion (whatever that is??) to Greenlanders is... Ed Dutton himself.


The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. And what would that evidence be?

Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’
Here is Kittles report.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1377088&blobtype=pdf

Quiz: Try to find Ed Duttons conclusion "between Germanic and Mongoloid ". The word mongoloid is not mentioned once in the report. It is Duttons invention. What the report concluded was that N1c as we know it today, arrived from the east.


Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes He is refering to Cavalli Sforza who said 10% Asian/siberian or whatever but never did he mention mongoloid. And Dutton is maybe also refering to old bloodsampling from early 70's which did not mention mongoloid either but "Siberian"


Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.
See what an idiot we are dealing with here?


And in 2003, Slovenian geneticist Andrej Marusic observed that the Finnish propensity to alcoholism could be explained by the ADH22 gene ‘which is common in Eastern peoples but almost unheard of Europe.’

ADH2 is a gene, although according to Wikipedia that's the old name for it, and it is now called ADH1B. It seems that ADH22 corresponds to a variant allele of rs1229984.

Quote:
Variants
A single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) in ADH1B is rs1229984, that changes arginine to histidine at residue 47.[3] The 'typical' variant of this has been referred to as ADH2(1) or ADH2*1 while the 'atypical' has been referred to as, e.g., ADH2(2), ADH2*2, ADH1B*47his, or ADH1B arg47-to-his. This SNP may be related to alcohol consumption with the atypical genotype having reduced risk of alcoholism.[4]
Another SNP is Arg369Cys.[5]

The text doesn't specify what the typical and atypical variant is. The HGDP Selection Browser shows that the ancestral allele for rs1229984 is C, while the derived value T is more common in Asians, so I take it that C is typical and T atypical.

http://hgdp.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/alf...29984&imp=true

Here is a more detailed frequency table for the allele variants of rs1229984 in different populations:

http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/Si...euid=SI000229N

Finns don't seem to differ from other Europeans at least with respect to the allele frequencies of this SNP. According to the table, 98.8% to 100% of Finns have the ancestral C allele. So if this information is correct, it is impossible to tell how the ADH1B (ADH2) gene would point to a mongoloid origin of Finns.

I wonder how Duttons logic works?


There is, he argued, a ‘J Curve’ where this gene is found which parallels areas where Finnish (and related languages) are spoken. For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols. The Mongols have not traditionally consumed strong alcohol whereas Europeans have for thousands of years, developing a genetic resistance to it.’

Marusic has made a study in 2003, about suicide not alcoholism:


"The current state of knowledge of genetic predisposition towards the suicidal behavior allows for a question whether genetic risk factors account for the variation in suicide rates through time and space. Accordingly, the presented paper will attempt to tackle the genetics behind suicidal behavior from the perspective of the populational genetics. First, the variability of suicide rates across Europe is discussed. This is followed by a brief discussion of the J curve (on a map of Europe, the countries with a higher suicide rate form a so-called J curve, which starts in Finland and extends down to Slovenia), which maps on to the second principal component identified for European gene distribution, representing the ancestral adaptation to cold climates and the Uralic language dispersion. Furthermore, we will discuss whether the group of people living within the J-curve could share genes, which may not tolerate excessive amounts alcohol, the combination of which is more likely to end in suicidal behavior. Further along we list possible ways in which suicidal behaviour could have been selected for genetically in populations and identify those specific populations in which it may have appeared. Finally, we point at other locations in the world where a similar interplay of genes and environment has probably occurred, Greenland being the best example of the malignant interaction of alcohol consumption and the trait-like characteristics, which might constitute the vulnerability to suicidal behaviour."

Duttons conclusion on the above: "For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols.":confused: I don't know how Dutton manages to do this but he does...

The alcohol tolerance is connected with activity of alcohol dehydrogenases (a group of enzymes responsible for the breakdown of alcohol) in the liver, and in the bloodstream. High level of alcohol dehydrogenase activity results in fast transformation of ethanol to more toxic acetaldehyde. Such atypical alcohol dehydrogenase is less frequent in alcoholics than in nonalcoholics. Furthermore, among alcoholics, the carriers of this atypical enzyme consume lower ethanol doses, compared to the individuals without the allele.

What does it mean?
People of European decent on average has a high alcohol tolerance compared to persons of East Asian, Aboriginal Australian or Native American descent. This is related to an average higher body mass, but also to the prevalence of high levels of alcohol dehydrogenasis in the population. The high alcohol tolerance in Europeans and some other ethnic groups has probably evolved as a consequence of centuries of exposure to alcohol in established agricultural societies. .

Dutton is so full of bizarre conclusions i really think he's on an agenda.

[Óttar]

:eek: :rolleyes: :lol00002:

Yet another one of these threads. Who cares?! Caucasians came from Central Asia anyhow.

[Brännvin]

Edward Dutton is a joke, this guy can not be serious.
Currently lives he in the very north of Finland?

[Loki]

Yet another one of these threads. Who cares?!


What threads? Anthropolgical ones? Anyone who cares to read should care to discuss.



Caucasians came from Central Asia anyhow.

And all humans eventually came from Africa, and probably looked like the San Bushmen do today. That doesn't mean everything else is irrelevant.

[Goidelic]

Well, if the Finns are Mongolians of Europe.... So is the rest of the Northern European spectrum...

Every nation has indigenous "negative" types to be found, they are generally the result of very small minorities who retained these old intrusive "extra-European" traits over time. Now, can they be European? Of course, but it also depends on the circumstances. :tongue Other times they aren't indigenous at all, are recent immigrants & or are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc. this and that of a different ethnic group/race.

[Sarmata]

do you refer to the oft-quoted sentence-fragment
from The Inequality of Human Races (http://books.google.com/books?id=JeM_1BCeffAC&printsec=titlepage&#v=onepage&q=&f=false):

Exactly I was read it years ago, I thought that Gobineau theories are out-dated and sometimes even hilarious and now some of that theories could be supported by genetic evidences:confused:

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Exactly I was read it years ago, I thought that Gobineau theories are out-dated and sometimes even hilarious and now some of that theories could be supported by genetic evidences:confused:

NO! they can not be supported by genetic evidences. It's the exact opposite, genetic evidences makes Gobineaus theories as serious as Flat Earth Societies or that Elvis lives on a mountain top with Bob Marley.

[Osweo]

a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari
= "I (Dutton) am a complete STUPID IDIOT. Do not read my drivel."

http://users.skynet.be/gentinsuomiklubi/images/vaakuna.gif
Venaa-Suomi Druzhba!!!
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6339/druzhba.jpg

[Hors]

Hi! At first I thought this thread must come from Hors, what a supprise:eek:.
27% It's pretty much...is this source reliable? .

Must be a typo. It is up to 72% rather. 65% on average.


So maybe Gobineau was right, he wrote some nonsences(?) about Finnic-Mongols

What non-sense? He was a great man, the pioneer of European preservationism, the true patriot of Europe!

[Hors]

NO! they can not be supported by genetic evidences. It's the exact opposite, genetic evidences makes Gobineaus theories as serious as Flat Earth Societies or that Elvis lives on a mountain top with Bob Marley.

Both genetic and anthropological evidence says the count Gobineau was right.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

What non-sense? He was a great man, the pioneer of European preservationism, the true patriot of Europe!

How about Hitler, "subhuman"?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Both genetic and anthropological evidence says the count Gobineau was right.

And Hors is Bob Marley.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

It is up to 72% rather. 65% on average.

58 % of Finnish males carry Haplotype N1c.

Which is a Eurasian Y-dna. Just as R1a is.

But this is science. "Pearls for swine"

[U R Face]

It's laughable to see the extent to which people will deny the evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture to reassure themselves that Finns are European. Failing that, some people conveniently 'forget' their politics and say embarrassing things like "Who cares if they're 39% Mongoloid!!??? What does it matt0r!?"

Whether you want Finns to be significantly Asiatic is irrelevant to whether they actually ARE Asiatic. And if you support unions (and naturally interbreeding) with Asiatics, as many in this thread do, then good for you. But please don't make any contrary statements in any other threads. I do dislike hypocrisy.

[Poltergeist]

What does it matter!"

Indeed. What does it matter?

[U R Face]

Indeed. What does it matter?

Well, that would of course depend on your values and concerns. To a Christian it wouldn't matter; we're all people. To a liberal, it wouldn't matter; all genes are equal. To me it matters, because I dislike race mixing. To Swedes and Norwegians it matters, because Finns and related populations are responsible for injecting an Asiatic strain into their population. To science, it matters, because science strives to establish truth. I doubt Newton received the same defensive "WhAT R DuZ it maTt0r!!!" reaction from his peers. Scientific inquiry shouldn't be restrained by petty emotionalism.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

It's laughable to see the extent to which people will deny the evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture to reassure themselves that Finns are European.
There are enough "evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture" that confirms what everyone with eyes and a functioning brain clearly can see:
Finns are white, caucasoid and non asiatic Europeans just like all other Europeans.
To say the contrary is to mock intelligence.

If you have any evidence whatsoever to prove your ridiculous claim about Finns bring them on.


Failing that, some people conveniently 'forget' their politics and say embarrassing things like "Who cares if they're 39% Mongoloid!!??? What does it matt0r!?"
What are you talking about ? Born after Tchernobyl or something?


Whether you want Finns to be significantly Asiatic is irrelevant to whether they actually ARE Asiatic. And if you support unions (and naturally interbreeding) with Asiatics, as many in this thread do, then good for you. But please don't make any contrary statements in any other threads. I do dislike hypocrisy.
Hipocrisy is the fact that there are some 20 million people in Russia who carry N1c... What makes them "more European" and "less Asiatic" than Finns..? LOL!

Clearly you don't like Finnish people and it is fine with me another fact is that U R Face is a troll account: Purpose to support Hors (maybe it is Hors?) and his inferiority complex. The worlds largest socioeconomic gap is between Finland and Russia. There are only two people who have killed as many Russians as the Finns have, Germans (WWII) and ..yes.. that's right... Russians themselves.
I guess it hurts. It hurts so much Hors who have to resort to 19th century "science" like Gobineau; the mad frenchman.

Moderator!!!

[Brännvin]

Moderator!!!

Who wtf is UR Face? PTG?

[Poltergeist]

Well, that would of course depend on your values and concerns. To a Christian it wouldn't matter; we're all people. To a liberal, it wouldn't matter; all genes are equal. To me it matters, because I dislike race mixing. To Swedes and Norwegians it matters, because Finns and related populations are responsible for injecting an Asiatic strain into their population. To science, it matters, because science strives to establish truth. I doubt Newton received the same defensive "WhAT R DuZ it maTt0r!!!" reaction from his peers. Scientific inquiry shouldn't be restrained by petty emotionalism.

There is some emotionalism in your concern with "race mixing", however.

And what is race? To the best of my knowledge, it's usually associated with overt phenotypic characteristics, not with such abstractions like statistics of the distribution of certain haplogroups in the population. This obsession with genetics is much more irrelevant than the old style racialism, which was concerned with skin colour, skull shape and similar. Because this older racialism has at least some basis in the visual experience. Whereas this new genetic craze is totally abstract and meaningless.

"Scientific truth"? Regarding this, I rather stand with Feyerabend who says that scientific truth(s), allegedly established by scientists, shouldn't be arbiters in social matters, that is, if some scientific view conflicts with the common sense, then priority should be geiven to the latter. And modern science hasn't even pretence to discover some definite truths, but just "highly (or less) probable hypotheses".

And btw: if these genetic findings were to be taken really seriously, even on the supposition that something like haplogroup distribution really mattered for the national identity (and I don't think it does), research should be made on all Finns, not on some small sample.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

For once I had to admit to being wrong...

I said there were 20 million Russians that carry N1c. I was maybe thinking that there are estimates that around 25-30 million Russians are descendants of various Finno Ugrian peoples. Most of them in north Russia, so I guess that out of 115 million Russians some 25-30 million are ok and actually do work hard, have some sort of morale and pride...

What does Uke boy and Hors dig this?


Russians:
total population: approx. 115,889,107 in Russia (Russian Census of 2002)
approx. 145,031,551 worldwide (Ethnologue 2005)
approx. 137,000,000 worldwide (Wikipedia article on "Russians")
N1c frequency: 161/1119 = 14.39% (total of all Russian Y-DNA data from Rosser et al. 2000, Wells et al. 2001, Derenko et al. 2007, Karafet et al. 2002, and Central Russian Y-DNA data from Balanovsky et al. 2008)
total N1c individuals: approx. 8,336,973 in Russia
approx. 10,433,458 worldwide (following Ethnologue 2005 estimate)
approx. 9,855,675 worldwide (following Wikipedia estimate)

Ukrainians:
total population: approx. 39,441,842 (Ethnologue 2005 total for all countries)
N1c frequency: 19/224 = 8.48% (total of all Ukrainian data from Rosser et al. 2000, Semino et al. 2000, Varzari 2006, and Kharkov et al. 2004)
total N1c individuals: approx. 1,672,757


More than in Finland. Don't throw stones in glasshouse...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

There is some emotionalism in your concern with "race mixing", however.

And what is race? To the best of my knowledge, it's usually associated with overt phenotypic characteristics, not with such abstractions like statistics of the distribution of certain haplogroups in the population. This obsession with genetics is much more irrelevant than the old style racialism, which was concerned with skin colour, skull shape and similar. Because this older racialism has at least some basis in the visual experience. Whereas this is totally abstract and meaningless.

"Scientific truth"? Regarding this, I rather stand with Feyerabend who says that scientific truth(s), allegedly established by scientists, shouldn't be arbiters in social matters, that is, if some scientific view conflicts with the common sense, then priority should be geiven to the latter. And modern science hasn't even pretence to discover some definite truths, but just "highly (or less) probable hypotheses".

And btw: if these genetic findings were to be taken really seriously, even on the supposition that something like haplogroup distribution really mattered for the national identity (and I don't think it does), research should be made on all Finns, not on some small sample.


A haplogroup is a haplogroup only and does not tell anything else than millions and millions of people share a common ancestor 5-10-15 or 20 000 years back.
To read in ethnicity in a haplogroup is incorrect.

[U R Face]

There are enough "evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture" that confirms what everyone with eyes and a functioning brain clearly can see:
Finns are white, caucasoid and non asiatic Europeans just like all other Europeans.
To say the contrary is to mock intelligence.

The East Baltid type, which by definition is partially Uralid, is among the most frequently encountered types in NE Europe, particularly Finland. The distribution of the E. Baltid type correlates significantly with Tat-C, a (fairly recent) Siberian marker.


If you have any evidence whatsoever to prove your ridiculous claim about Finns bring them on.

What was ridiculous? That Finns have Asiatic ancestry? That they've had extensive historical interaction with Uralics? That they speak a Uralic language? That Uralic types are common in Finland? I don't believe a single one of those claims is controversial. Even the guy in the OP admits that 1/3 of Finnish genes are 'from the East'.



What are you talking about ? Born after Tchernobyl or something?

No, Tchernobyl was born in my face and came out of my ears.


Hipocrisy is the fact that there are some 20 million people in Russia who carry N1c... What makes them "more European" and "less Asiatic" than Finns..? LOL!

I don't think I did say that.


Clearly you don't like Finnish people and it is fine with me another fact is that U R Face is a troll account: Purpose to support Hors (maybe it is Hors?) and his inferiority complex. The worlds largest socioeconomic gap is between Finland and Russia. There are only two people who have killed as many Russians as the Finns have, Germans (WWII) and ..yes.. that's right... Russians themselves.
I guess it hurts. It hurts so much Hors who have to resort to 19th century "science" like Gobineau; the mad frenchman.

Moderator!!!

I don't have a problem with Finns. I do have a problem with irrationality. I've seen this topic quite often, and the outcome is always the same. People simply can't digest the truth when it crosses a certain boundary. I'm just helping them come to terms with reality.

[U R Face]

There is some emotionalism in your concern with "race mixing", however.

And what is race? To the best of my knowledge, it's usually associated with overt phenotypic characteristics, not with such abstractions like statistics of the distribution of certain haplogroups in the population. This obsession with genetics is much more irrelevant than the old style racialism, which was concerned with skin colour, skull shape and similar. Because this older racialism has at least some basis in the visual experience. Whereas this is totally abstract and meaningless.

"Scientific truth"? Regarding this, I rather stand with Feyerabend who says that scientific truth(s), allegedly established by scientists, shouldn't be arbiters in social matters, that is, if some scientific view conflicts with the common sense, then priority should be geiven to the latter. And modern science hasn't even pretence to discover some definite truths, but just "highly (or less) probable hypotheses".

And btw: if these genetic findings were to be taken really seriously, even on the supposition that something like haplogroup distribution really mattered for the national identity (and I don't think it does), research should be made on all Finns, not on some small sample.

If you re-read, you'll see that I said emotionalism shouldn't factor in the formulation of a 'scientific opinion'.

I'm not interested in your moralistically rooted denial of race. I'm a relativist too; however, I acknowledge the relativity of all things, not just the things that offend me personally. Race is relative, like everything else that falls within the domain of human experience. Yet for some reason people spend more time and energy in deconstructing the concept of race than any other thing. It offends them.

But as I say, it's not my interest. This isn't a philosophical discussion.

[Poltergeist]

If you re-read, you'll see that I said emotionalism shouldn't factor in the formulation of a 'scientific opinion'.

Yes, I agree. But on the other hand, no-one should be forced to accept any "scientific opinion" as a supreme arbiter in life and society, if that opinion is based on abstractions and not real life experiences and common sense.


I'm not interested in your moralistically rooted denial of race.

It's not "moralistical". I just say racial fetish is dumb and that's why I reject it.

[U R Face]

It's not "moralistical". I just say racial fetish is dumb and that's why I reject it.

It's neither dumb nor not dumb. It's simply an aesthetic.

Now that I have slightly more time, I'll address what you said about marker-based racialism. I agree it's stupid and I don't subscribe to it. However, it is obviously relevant as an indication of which physical types migrated where and contributed to which gene pools. Obviously, there are the additional factors of drift and subsequent selection following the infusion of alien blood to consider, but when you have a population that shows physical affinities with Asiatics, and you look at their genes, and they show genetic affinities with Asiatics, and then you look at their language...etc. You get my point.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The East Baltid type, which by definition is partially Uralid, is among the most frequently encountered types in NE Europe, particularly Finland. The distribution of the E. Baltid type correlates significantly with Tat-C, a (fairly recent) Siberian marker.

Did you fart? SNPA is load of crap and east Baltids are no more common in Finland than "Hallstatts" or "Cro magnids" or "east Nords".


What was ridiculous? That Finns have Asiatic ancestry? That they've had extensive historical interaction with Uralics? That they speak a Uralic language? That Uralic types are common in Finland?
All of the above is ridiculous. Uralic this and Uralic that. A language group is a language group. I could be angry about you Ukes having historical interaction with Pakistanis and Persians. That is no good. Goat-herder mentality and a wish to root donkeys from those genes are not welcome north of the Black sea.

All Europeans have Asiatic ancestry even Ukes, Finns are not unique and not the people that have most of it.


I don't have a problem with Finns. Apparently you do. Otherwise you wouldn't show up here and in other places.


I've seen this topic quite often, and the outcome is always the same.
Me too.
Idiots like you come jumping in full of shit which is never verified by any sources other than "a guy at Stormfront" or Gobineau wrote...


just helping them come to terms with reality.
Your reality iLOL!! A kid in Ukraine who has a very limited knowledge about anything. (Or Hors)

One more thing, go ahead and hate yourself. You are the result of "racemixing".

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Well, that would of course depend on your values and concerns. To a Christian it wouldn't matter; we're all people. To a liberal, it wouldn't matter; all genes are equal. To me it matters, because I dislike race mixing. To Swedes and Norwegians it matters, because Finns and related populations are responsible for injecting an Asiatic strain into their population. To science, it matters, because science strives to establish truth. I doubt Newton received the same defensive "WhAT R DuZ it maTt0r!!!" reaction from his peers. Scientific inquiry shouldn't be restrained by petty emotionalism.

Hehehehee!! IF it was so, the Asiatic strain would have been injected into you to:thumbs up

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Give us science, U R Face

[Osweo]

Ekh... Stupid people... :(

There is no such thing as an Asiatic. It's the most meaningless and pointless of words to be using, especially in the same context as evoking 'scientific' data.

Finnic languages are solidly European. Within the wider Uralic group (whose very existence as a genetic family of languages is often questioned), there are languages that are solidly Asian, like Selkup or the lost Sayan languages. Asian here doesn't mean Chinaman, Weddid, Azeri or even Uzbek, though. The North is a world of its own, with links to those that abut it. Our ancestors didn't live in hermetically sealed glass bubbles, and watching Russians and Finns argue like this is so damned annoying. :rolleyes:

[Sarmata]

Yes, I agree. But on the other hand, no-one should be forced to accept any "scientific opinion" as a supreme arbiter in life and society, if that opinion is based on abstractions and not real life experiences and common sense.



It's not "moralistical". I just say racial fetish is dumb and that's why I reject it.

What is "racial fetish", I heard about about some streange individuals who draws sexual satisfaction with some parts of clothes etc., is "racial fetish" something similar?:D
But seriously...European states and all civilization were created by some real(yes realm not all is relative) people. Those people belongs to some real race or sub- races if you want. If I'm pround of my National and European racial heritage therefore Am I fetishist?

[Poltergeist]

What is "racial fetish", I heard about about some streange individuals who draws sexual satisfaction with some parts of clothes etc., is "racial fetish" something similar?:D

Racial fetish is something quite analogous to what you describe, only that some kind of mental masturbation is derived from belonging to some racial type. There are two kinds of such fetish: one concerned with phenotype (skin colour, skull shape etc), the other with genotype (having this or that haplogroup in the respective population). People go to extreme lengths in quarrelling over whose country has more and whose less "Asiatic" or "European" genetic material, as if that were truly important for some national identity. Some are "offended" by suggestions that their nation contains in its population, say, 20% of certain "Asiatic" haplogroup, according to some research dug out from God-knows-which dark corner of the internet, and feverishly look for some other research which allegedly proves the contrary. Even adding such adjectives like "European", "Mongol", "Asiatic" onto genes is hardly meaningful, because these adjectives denote complex historical realities that can hardly be connected with certain genepool in a causal relationship.

The old style racialism, concerned with phenotype, although it has also been driven to grotesque extremes and its deterministic conclusions cannot be accepted, has more of a point than this modern racial-genetic craze. Because it is concerned with something more real, concrete, having to do with our visual experience, and not some weird letters whose true meaning only the professional geneticists understand and laymen are very likely to interpret in wrong or overly simplistic manner.

It is so utterly stupid. Is it confined to internet only? Mostly yes, but obviously there are some people in real life who think it's very important, as this article demonstrates.


But seriously...European states and all civilization were created by some real (yes realm not all is relative) people.

Exactly, by real people. not by racial types and subtypes, skull shapes, which are not real, but idealistic intellectual concepts.


If I'm pround of my National and European racial heritage therefore Am I fetishist?

I don't know what place this pride plays in your life. Are you extremely obsessed with that or not, and similar etc?

I don't say that everyone having this kind of pride is a fetishist. I just don't understand that. To be "proud" of something so banal like the racial makeup, defined often by some very arbitrary criteria? To everyone his own, I guess.

[L-F Céline]

The Finn subrace stops at the Slavic border and with that the europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid apperance disappears gradually, only to re-appear gradually once again in the Eastern-most part of Russia. The explanation behind that, is that the Slavs were ethnically-cleansing the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps on their side of the border, while on the other side of the border the svenskar handled things differently as unlike the Slavs they were not killing off the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps but instead were copulating with them, as I guess it was their way to settle the land.

[Osweo]

The Finn subrace stops at the Slavic border and with that the europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid apperance disappears gradually, only to re-appear gradually once again in the Eastern-most part of Russia. The explanation behind that, is that the Slavs were ethnically-cleansing the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps on their side of the border, while on the other side of the border the svenskar handled things differently as unlike the Slavs they were not killing off the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps but instead were copulating with them, as I guess it was their way to settle the land.

Are you joking?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The Finn subrace stops at the Slavic border and with that the europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid apperance disappears gradually, only to re-appear gradually once again in the Eastern-most part of Russia. The explanation behind that, is that the Slavs were ethnically-cleansing the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps on their side of the border, while on the other side of the border the svenskar handled things differently as unlike the Slavs they were not killing off the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps but instead were copulating with them, as I guess it was their way to settle the land.

Oh god, another whacko...

Go jerk off to Gobineau, dumbo.

[L-F Céline]

Are you joking?

On which point? None of the point I discussed on this subject were the object of un-seriousness.

[Äike]

By population count, Russia is the most Baltid country in the world, with the majority of the white Russian population being East-Baltid. This is quite logical as Russia has a cold continental climate, thus borelization is unavoidable.

Subraces stopping at political borders is just asinine.

[Basil]

East-Baltid type is quite rare in Russia, except N-W and N-E parts. Population of Russian heartland is entirely Slavic and don't have any Uralic admixture at all.

[L-F Céline]

By population count, Russia is the most Baltid country in the world, with the majority of the white Russian population being East-Baltid. This is quite logical as Russia has a cold continental climate, thus borelization is unavoidable.

Subraces stopping at political borders is just asinine.

The ethnic-cleansing of the samis on the Slavic borders could not be total of course, kind of like the ethnic cleansing of NA Indians where some people in NA have an Indian or two in their familly tree. It however reduced the amount of inflitration as the highest amount of N is located inside of Finland and not in Slavic territory where it is dispersed all over and quite rare save for the Noth Western and North Eastern borders as Slavic territory is quite large, while on the other side N is extended all the way to Northern Sweden where it's influence gradually disappears.

Anyway it is common knowledge that the Finns and their related neighbours are mostly a Lappoid race altered by Nordic admixture, save for the minority of suomenruotsalaiset.

[Äike]

East-Baltid type is quite rare in Russia, except N-W and N-E parts. Population of Russian heartland is entirely Slavic and don't have any Uralic admixture at all.

This map isn't that accurate, but it shows that East-Baltids are quite common in Russia. By the way, not only Uralics can be east-baltid and the modern people around the Urals are just Mongols/Tatars/Turkics/Siberians
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/bigracemap01.jpg

[L-F Céline]

By the way, not only Uralics can be east-baltid and the modern people around the Urals are just Mongols/Tatars/Turkics/Siberians
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/bigracemap01.jpg

That's not quite correct, the Bolsheviks exiled many Slavic E-Nordic types to Siberia.

[Basil]

This map isn't that accurate, but it shows that East-Baltids are quite common in Russia. By the way, not only Uralics can be east-baltid and the modern people around the Urals are just Mongols/Tatars/Turkics/Siberians


This map is outdated drivel. Well, it's not even outdated cause it's not based on any field work. It's just fiction invented by author's fevered imagination.

[Äike]

That's not quite correct, the Bolsheviks exiled many Slavic E-Nordic types to Siberia.

This map is done by the Third Reich and you have said in other posts that you support the scientific views of the Third Reich. Now I'm confused.;)

[Äike]

This map is outdated drivel. Well, it's not even outdated cause it's not based on any field work. It's just fiction invented by author's fevered imagination.

Didn't the scientists of the 3rd Reich visit places all over the world to make such maps? They even visited Persia and concluded that Persians are racially European. Iran isn't racially European anymore, sadly. Only a small minority is.

[L-F Céline]

This map is done by the Third Reich and you have said in other posts that you support the scientific views of the Third Reich. Now I'm confused.;)

I don't see how what I said proves that this map is wrong, moreover it was during the Bolshevik rule that the E-Nordics found themselves exiled from Russia unto Siberia by the Bolsheviks. This can be witnessed on some of those Mongols/Tatars/Turkics/Siberians who exhibit Nordic features due to much like in the case of Finn-Lapps, were exposed to a Nordic admixture.

[Basil]

from rep comment

Most Russians are borealized... Due to the cold climate.

Following your logic Boers should have already turned into Negroes cause they live in appropriate climate. Borealization is a long-term process, it lasts thousands years.

[Äike]

from rep comment


Following your logic Boers should have already turned into Negroes cause they live in appropriate climate. Borealization is a long-term process, it lasts thousands years.

Russia has been inhabited for at least 10 000 years and the Slavic invaders assimilated the native population.

[Hors]

Didn't the scientists of the 3rd Reich visit places all over the world to make such maps? They even visited Persia and concluded that Persians are racially European. Iran isn't racially European anymore, sadly. Only a small minority is.

That's the intellectual level of a contemporary Estonian.

[Basil]

Didn't the scientists of the 3rd Reich visit places all over the world to make such maps? They even visited Persia and concluded that Persians are racially European. Iran isn't racially European anymore, sadly. Only a small minority is.

Map you posted is after Ewald Banse.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewald_Banse
Via online translator:

Ewald Banse (* 23rd May, 1883 in Brunswick; † 31st October, 1953 ibid.) was a geographer from Lower Saxony, Pan-Germanistic amateur historian and author. His role as a Völkerkundler and orientalist is controversial.

He wasn't even anthropology scholar, just another insane maniac obsessed with racial theories.

[Äike]

That's the intellectual level of a contemporary Estonian.

Why the ad hominem? You didn't even try to argue my statement.

Ancient Persians were Europid, that's a fact. Modern Iran is just like any other Muslim country. Except the fact that there's a small Europid minority.

[Osweo]

exiling east nordids to Siberia
So the Bolsheviks systematically went round measuring heads to fill the cattle wagons? Do me a favour and go to Russia and see the real thing.

The ethnic-cleansing of the samis on the Slavic borders could not be total of course, kind of like the ethnic cleansing of NA Indians where some people in NA have an Indian or two in their familly tree. It however reduced the amount of inflitration as the highest amount of N is located inside of Finland and not in Slavic territory where it is dispersed all over and quite rare save for the Noth Western and North Eastern borders as Slavic territory is quite large, while on the other side N is extended all the way to Northern Sweden where it\'s influence gradually disappears.
Upon what evidence do you base the statement that the Russkies ethnically cleansed Lapps? Under \'Samis\' do you include such diverse peoples as the Volga Finns, Permyaks, Veps, Chud, Merya and Mordva?


Russia has been inhabited for at least 10 000 years and the Slavic invaders assimilated the native population.

It really IS quite as simple as that. There are even traces of Finnic peoples in surnames. I know a Marasinov from Rybinsk, who says the name is connected with the Merya or Mari, or a kindred group, for instance. Arkhangelskaya Oblast\'s older layer of toponymy is almost completely Finnic. Even Moskovskaya Oblast has a huge share of it. You can just see it in people\'s faces, anyway.

[Basil]

It really IS quite as simple as that. There are even traces of Finnic peoples in surnames. I know a Marasinov from Rybinsk, who says the name is connected with the Merya or Mari, or a kindred group, for instance. Arkhangelskaya Oblast\'s older layer of toponymy is almost completely Finnic. Even Moskovskaya Oblast has a huge share of it. You can just see it in people\'s faces, anyway.
It's not as simple as you think. Medieval Eastern-Slavic tribes in pre-Mongolian era indeed had noticeable amount of Finnic blood in their veins, that is confirmed by anthropological studies. But that population was practically almost wiped out by Mongolian invaders and was replaced through additional Slavic migrations from territory of modern Ukraine and Central Europe. There are no genetic links between pre-Mongolian Slavic tribes of Russian plain and modern Russians.
Seems you can read Russian, here is excerpt from "Anthropology of peoples of Eastern Europe" by V.P. Alekseev regarding absence of sizeable Finnic substratum in Russian people. Just make yourself familiar with that.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3773/img6331q.th.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/img6331q.jpg/)http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3884/img6184.th.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/img6184.jpg/)http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3928/img6185h.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/img6185h.jpg/)

[Brännvin]

The explanation behind that, is that the Slavs were ethnically-cleansing the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps on their side of the border, while on the other side of the border the svenskar handled things differently as unlike the Slavs they were not killing off the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps but instead were copulating with them, as I guess it was their way to settle the land.

Who actually is this moron jerk?


This can be witnessed on some of those Mongols/Tatars/Turkics/Siberians who exhibit Nordic features due to much like in the case of Finn-Lapps, were exposed to a Nordic admixture.

Is there currently some scientific study that would to prove their argument?

What spell you here actually are loads of bullshit at least UR Face has better arguments..

[Nodens]

Modern Iran is just like any other Muslim country.

Like Indonesia? You seem to be suggesting that the Persian population has been replaced by Arabs.

[Falkata]

Like Indonesia? You seem to be suggesting that the Persian population has been replaced by Arabs.

http://emiratosarabes.pordescubrir.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/presidente-iran.jpg

[Creeping Death]

Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe? (http://www.mongolia-web.com/content/view/2084/154/)
What about the Asiatic Jews? Are not the Jews the real Asiatics of Europe.

[L-F Céline]

What about the Asiatic Jews? Are not the Jews the real Asiatics of Europe.

Jews like many others are Europeanized invaders who are Extra-Europeans in origin.


So the Bolsheviks systematically went round measuring heads to fill the cattle wagons? Do me a favour and go to Russia and see the real thing.

No they where not measuring heads just basing themselves on the hair colours of the ones they exiled to Siberia.



Upon what evidence do you base the statement that the Russkies ethnically cleansed Lapps? Under \'Samis\' do you include such diverse peoples as the Volga Finns, Permyaks, Veps, Chud, Merya and Mordva?

It is part of history that the Slav where ethnically cleansing the ones who lived in huts from around their borders.

[Poltergeist]

http://emiratosarabes.pordescubrir.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/presidente-iran.jpg

If I didn't know it was Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, I might have thought it was some Spanish politician.

[Äike]

Like Indonesia? You seem to be suggesting that the Persian population has been replaced by Arabs.

Iranians are a Persian-Arab mix. Few Europid Persians still exist in Iran, I personally know a few.

[Falkata]

If I didn't know it was Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, I might have thought it was some Spanish politician.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_b2ilU8mY3zQ/RiSPDOxKbbI/AAAAAAAAAEE/VXBaxgVQB5o/s400/rajoy3.jpg

[Tabiti]

Hmm, Mongolians I think no... Maybe something more "honorable Aryan" like Koreans or Japanese :D

[ikki]

Hmm, Mongolians I think no... Maybe something more "honorable Aryan" like Koreans or Japanese :D

Turanid power!

mongols, tartars, turks, kazakhs, turkmen, finns, hunagrians, koreans, japanese.. hail, hail! :p One great family

[Loki]

Turanid power!

mongols, tartars, turks, kazakhs, turkmen, finns, hunagrians, koreans, japanese.. hail, hail! :p One great family

You kid, but there is some support for that on the internet. ;)

I don't know if you know Lady Goeth, aka Marhta Stewart, lg, Sarah, etc. She used to have such a fetish and even had a forum on it. ;) Can't remember at the top of my head the name now.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The ethnic-cleansing of the samis on the Slavic borders could not be total of course, kind of like the ethnic cleansing of NA Indians where some people in NA have an Indian or two in their familly tree.
Could you please refer to what and where ethnic cleansing have taken place? Or did you pull this from your ass?

It however reduced the amount of inflitration as the highest amount of N is located inside of Finland and not in Slavic territory where it is dispersed all over and quite rare save for the Noth Western and North Eastern borders as Slavic territory is quite large, while on the other side N is extended all the way to Northern Sweden where it's influence gradually disappears.
Poor you... N is the parental Y-dna haplogroup of N1c which have been in Europe 10 -12 or 14 000 years. Do you have any idea what you are going on about?? A haplogroup have NO, NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER, on peoples looks.
If it would, people in Cameroon carrying R1b would look like Frenchies and Kazakhs carrying r1a would look like Miroslav the Slovak.


Anyway it is common knowledge that the Finns and their related neighbours are mostly a Lappoid race altered by Nordic admixture, save for the minority of suomenruotsalaiset.
It is common "knowledge" among people who don't have a fucking clue, yes.
I have news for you:
there is no Lappoid race

[Absinthe]

I don't know if you know Lady Goeth, aka Marhta Stewart, lg, Sarah, etc. She used to have such a fetish and even had a forum on it. ;) Can't remember at the top of my head the name now.

I think the name had something to do with "Tūrān - something". I wish it still existed...it would be fascinating to read :)

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The Finn subrace stops at the Slavic border and with that the europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid apperance disappears gradually, only to re-appear gradually once again in the Eastern-most part of Russia. The explanation behind that, is that the Slavs were ethnically-cleansing the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps on their side of the border, while on the other side of the border the svenskar handled things differently as unlike the Slavs they were not killing off the Lapps/Finnic-Lapps but instead were copulating with them, as I guess it was their way to settle the land.

I had to read your first post again to verify that I'm dealing with a nutter.

First of all; the is no "Finn subrace". If there was, the Finns would not carry autosomal DNA indistinguishable from other Europeans.

All people are 99,99% genetically identical. However, it seems all people are not 99,99% equally intelligent...

"europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid"
I give you credit for trying to invent something that does not exist. Not in Europe and definetly not in Finland.

[Hors]

You kid, but there is some support for that on the internet. ;)

I don't know if you know Lady Goeth, aka Marhta Stewart, lg, Sarah, etc. She used to have such a fetish and even had a forum on it. ;) Can't remember at the top of my head the name now.

Do you know what has happened to her? Rumor has it that she is with Red Cross or something like it on a mission in Africa, saving Niggers from starvation.

[Hors]

I had to read your first post again to verify that I'm dealing with a nutter.

ad hominem


First of all; the is no "Finn subrace".

not true


If there was, the Finns would not carry autosomal DNA indistinguishable from other Europeans.

liar, liar :rolleyes:


All people are 99,99% genetically identical. However, it seems all people are not 99,99% equally intelligent...

and Finns are the prime example... after Estonians, of course


"europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid"
I give you credit for trying to invent something that does not exist. Not in Europe and definetly not in Finland.

you're in denial

[Loki]

I think the name had something to do with "Tūrān - something". I wish it still existed...it would be fascinating to read :)

Indeed, it was a very interesting concept, and she was (is) a very creative person.


Do you know what has happened to her? Rumor has it that she is with Red Cross or something like it on a mission in Africa, saving Niggers from starvation.

I noticed that she is posting as Marhta Stewart on The Phora (http://www.thephora.net/forum/member.php?u=1875).

Her posts on Phora are rather Stormfront-Nutzi like, so I doubt she'd be feeding Africans at this point in time.

I sent her an invite via pm, but she hasn't responded to me yet.

[L-F Céline]

First of all; the is no "Finn subrace". If there was, the Finns would not carry autosomal DNA indistinguishable from other Europeans.

Um yeah, itz called "race mixing", check it out sometimes.



All people are 99,99% genetically identical. However, it seems all people are not 99,99% equally intelligent...

Not true.



"europeanized depigmented alaskan mongoloid"
I give you credit for trying to invent something that does not exist. Not in Europe and definetly not in Finland.

Sorry to shatter it for you, but they exist through the same process that created the Finn subrace, racemixing between caucasoids and mongoloids:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/759/asianblond.jpg

These guys would feel right at home in Finland together with their Finno-Lappic kinfolks.

[Hors]

The proud blond Ugro-Finnic bunch. :)

The one on the left must be Motorheadblahblah... that hemorrhoid expression... yeah, it must be him :)

The one on the right must be ikki... so soul searching... :)

And the one with the Down syndrome in the center is obviously Estonian... Karl? :D

[Hors]

Indeed, it was a very interesting concept, and she was (is) a very creative person.



I noticed that she is posting as Marhta Stewart on The Phora (http://www.thephora.net/forum/member.php?u=1875).

Her posts on Phora are rather Stormfront-Nutzi like, so I doubt she'd be feeding Africans at this point in time.

I sent her an invite via pm, but she hasn't responded to me yet.

Are you sure it's LG? MS's homepage is a blog in French which is created by a Francophone person. She didn't speak or even started to learn the language several years ago, and I doubt she could have reached such a high (in fact, native) level of fluency even if she was doing nothing but her French lessons all these years.

[Loki]

Are you sure it's LG? MS's homepage is a blog in French which is created by a Francophone person. She didn't speak or even started to learn the language several years ago, and I doubt she could have reached such a high (in fact, native) level of fluency even if she was doing nothing but her French lessons all these years.

People put any links into their homepage field.

[Poltergeist]

Everyone is obssessed with Mongolians, it seems.

[Loki]

Mongoloids are superior to Europoids as far as intelligence goes, so Mongoloid admixture must be flattery. ;)

[Poltergeist]

Yeah, admirers of the theories of Richard Lynn and IQ statistic fetishists should of necessity be pro-race-mixers.

[Cristiano viejo]

Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland. The Western-looking academic elite have done all that they can to suppress it and academics that still contend that Finns have ‘Mongoloid origins’ are cast into the wilderness in a ferocious dispute.

Until very recently, Finns were encouraged to see themselves either as ‘eastern’ or at least ‘between east and west.’ It was in the 1790, when Sweden ruled Finland, that German anthropologist J. F. Blumenbach compared Finnish, Sami (the Arctic reindeer herders) and Mongolian skulls and concluded that the Finns were ‘mongoloid’ and not ‘white’ like the Swedes or Finland’s Swedish-speaking aristocracy. This was widely accepted and led to the Turanian theory – that both the Finns and Sami had originally come from the East – as well as strengthening the view, according to Finland-Swede sociologist Nina af Enehjelm, that Finns were somehow ‘other’ and even ‘inferior.’ The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic and Finnish behaviour patterns to those of the Japanese.

Finland-Swede linguist M. A. Castren added to this in 1840s when he investigated the Finnish language and tried to understand which languages were related to the seemingly isolated tongue. He found that Sami, Estonian and Hungarian were from the same family but so were a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari. And even languages like Mongolian and Greenlandic seemed to have a similar grammatical structure. This led to the ‘Migration Theory,’ arguing the Finns arrived in Europe from Mongolia around three thousand years ago and finally got to Finland 2000 years ago. The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’ Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes, more than any other European nation. Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.

And in 2003, Slovenian geneticist Andrej Marusic observed that the Finnish propensity to alcoholism could be explained by the ADH22 gene ‘which is common in Eastern peoples but almost unheard of Europe.’

There is, he argued, a ‘J Curve’ where this gene is found which parallels areas where Finnish (and related languages) are spoken. For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols. The Mongols have not traditionally consumed strong alcohol whereas Europeans have for thousands of years, developing a genetic resistance to it.’

However, since a symposium in the 1980s it has become more common – especially in Finland – to argue that Finns are completely Western, with what is called the ‘Continuity Theory.’ According to this view, Finns are ‘Proto-European’ and arrived in Finland between 6000 and 11000 years ago and they arrived from the south. The Finnish ‘mongoloid look’ is explained by Finns being genetically isolated and so retaining the adaptations to the cold of the earliest Europeans. There is even an Estonian anthropologist who argues that the Migration occurred from West to East, making the Mongolians descendants of the Finns. But this new-found ‘European-ness’ has been especially convenient for the Finnish elite.

According to Finnish anthropologist Pertti Anttonen, in his book Tradition Through Modernity, Finns are ‘insecure’ because of historical perceptions of their being ‘not European’ and so ‘inferior.’ He argues that, whatever the symposium concluded in the 1980s, until the 1990s Finland was under the influence of the Soviet Union so being a bit ‘eastern’ was useful. This was reflected in the English-language book about Finland, published every ten years or so by a Finnish publisher, called A History of Finland. From its first publication in 1963 up to 2003, Finns were described as partially ‘Eastern’ in some way. Suddenly in the 2003 addition, all discussion of the eastern origins was dropped from the book.

Anttonen also highlights the work of Finnish historian Prof. Aira Kemiläinen. Now dead, she attempted to persuade Finns that they were ‘European.’ Of the Mongol look she claimed, ‘in fact this book does not exist in Finland’ without providing any evidence for its dismissal, branded academic opponents as ‘racists’, ignored the latest genetic scholarship and, bizarrely, attempted to argue that Finns should be seen as ‘European’ because they were ‘educated.’

‘Ideas of race and civilization are linked, as the “Western Genetic Heritage” of the Finnish population is used as an argument for Finland belonging to Western Civilization,’ summarises Anttonen. He felt that the book was more nationalistic than real scholarship but inexplicably it as published by the Finnish Literature Society, the main Finnish academic publisher.

The Finnish Literature Society has long been criticised for being influenced by a Finnish nationalist agenda. Finland historian William Wilson argued in 1976 that the society was heavily influenced by extreme Finnish nationalism and that it published scholarship on the Finnish folklore epic Kalevala knowing that it reflected a nationalist agenda rather than what was justifiable. It was founded to promote Finnish literature back when Finnish was not even an official language in the, at that time, Russian Duchy and so the now government-funded publisher has always had some kind of nationalist agenda.

And the current view with the Finnish elite is that Finns are Western. As Anttonen puts it, ‘The emphasis on the Western-ness of the Finns is a recent phenomenon’ rendering Finland’s joining the European Union a ‘return to Europe.’ This leaves those who still argue that Finns are originally from Mongolia in the academic wilderness,

Prof. Kalevi Wiik cannot get his genetic work on Finnish origins published with the Finnish Literature Society despite it being published in international academic journals.

‘It would be impossible to publish with them,’ he says of the world’s dominant academic publisher on Finnish culture. ‘They don’t believe in the genetic view and they disregard the genetic facts.’

Wiik recalls how his theories have been met with ‘anger. I kept a big file on it. I was accused of producing voodoo science in one newspaper article!’ He was also accused of having ‘right-wing supporters’ by another emotional critic.

‘The Finns have around a third Germanic genes, a third Baltic genes and a third genes from the east. These are the genetic facts!’ he insists, though the idea that Finnish babies have the ‘Mongol Spot’ seems to be exaggerated. Wiik also argues that Finnish men carry Mongoloid genes to a greater extent than Finnish women and that most of Europe must have spoken a Finnish-type language around the time of the last Ice Age with Finland retaining its language due to isolation from Indo-European invaders.

But at the moment, Wiik’s views don’t seem to fit with how the Finnish academic establishment wants Finland to see itself. Kemiläinen’s book ignored his work completely and even Anttonen terms him ‘controversial.’ Finns were always told they were ‘between east and west’ but now, in the wake of the Cold War, they are being told they are ‘Western.’

For 78 year-old the ferocity of the debate of Finland’s ‘Mongol origins’ proves, whatever Finland’s origins, that Finns are very insecure about whether or not they’re really European. ‘The idea that we Finns are Mongoloid is still with us,’ he says.

Dr Edward Dutton is a British freelance journalist and academic based in Finland. He is currently finishing a book on Finnish culture called The Finnuit.

http://www.mongolia-web.com/2085-are-finns-mongolians-europe

[Veneda]

Slavs are Mongolians of Europe :D

[Not a Cop]

http://i017.radikal.ru/1309/5c/8f8061207c32.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/ecb2639e1ee746838f68d40d392c3c54)

[Smeagol]

No, Finns have nothing to do with Mongols. They're actually a lot Whiter than Spaniards.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

No, Finns have nothing to do with Mongols. They're actually a lot Whiter than Spaniards.

True, Original Europeans were more like Finns.

We probably looked a lot like Finns & Lithuanians before the Neolithic Farmers came to Europe.

[Cristiano viejo]

No, Finns have nothing to do with Mongols.
Genetic and phenotypes say the opposite. Read the article, please.

They're actually a lot Whiter than Spaniards.
What does that to do with this thread?

[Black Wolf]

True, Original Europeans were more like Finns.

We probably looked a lot like Finns & Lithuanians before the Neolithic Farmers came to Europe.

Yes both Lithuanians and Finns are very Northern European like genetically overall. Finns though do have some Siberian/North Eurasian ancestry that other Europeans do not have that tends to show up at around 6% or so on average or so on ADMIXTURE analysis. The Saami and North Russians also have this type of Siberian/North Eurasian admixture as well.

[Smeagol]

Genetic and phenotypes say the opposite. Read the article, please.

The article is crap. From some place called ''Mongolia Web''. Finns for the most part look North European. Genetically they have less Mongoloid admixture than Russians. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0


What does that to do with this thread?

It's just ironic that a Spaniard started this thread.

[Balmung]

Haven't we settled this already in chatbox? Slavics, Finnics, & Scandinavians are mongolians. Everyone else in Europe is Africans & Arabs.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Yes both Lithuanians and Finns are very Northern European like genetically overall. Finns though do have some Siberian/North Eurasian ancestry that other Europeans do not have that tends to show up at around 6% or so on average or so on ADMIXTURE analysis. The Saami and North Russians also have this type of Siberian/North Eurasian admixture as well.

True, but Cro Magnon man the original European came out closest to Finland of all samples.

Although that correlates closely with Northern European DNA thus I suspect Lithuanians are actually the most like Cro Magnon!

[Smeagol]

Turns out there is already a thread with this article. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?8375-Are-the-Finns-the-Mongolians-of-Europe

[Stormer99]

No, Finns have nothing to do with Mongols. They're actually a lot Whiter than Spaniards.

Spaniards are more Caucasoid.

[Smeagol]

Spaniards are more Caucasoid.

I don't care, Finns are Whiter, Spaniards have more North African, and nigger blood.

[Stormer99]

I don't care, Finns are Whiter, Spaniards have more North African, and nigger blood.

Native North Africans who were not mixed are whiter than Siberians.

[Cristiano viejo]

The article is crap. From some place called ''Mongolia Web''.
Excellent argument :rolleyes:


Finns for the most part look North European. Genetically they have less Mongoloid admixture than Russians. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0
What care if Russians have more mix than Finss here?


It's just ironic that a Spaniard started this thread.

Why ironic?
In this forum I have seen Jews claim to be whites and Europeans, even more than some Europeans, I guess that this it´s not ironic according you, right?
In this forum I see how mestizos open thread ask for their whiteness. Etc
Plus, why is so ironic that a Spaniard open a thread with an article about the mongolization of the Finns? Perhaps Spaniards have Mongolian mix?
Other thing, maybe Finns are more blonde than us, but they are not more whiter.

[Smeagol]

Excellent argument :rolleyes:

Read the thread I linked. Some Finnish guy debunked this whole article.


What care if Russians have more mix than Finss here?

Are Russians the Mongols of Europe?


Other thing, maybe Finns are more blonde than us, but they are not more whiter.

Finns are much Whiter, I'm sure most people will agree.

[Cristiano viejo]

I don't care, Finns are Whiter, Spaniards have more North African, and nigger blood.
Nigger blood? are you crazy or what?
But yes, a ridicolous % of Spaniards have North African blood, genetic prove it, but here we are discussing about the Mongol blood in Finns, which Spaniards dont have, and genetic does prove in Finn case.
It's funny that when you are interesed you speak about genetics; in this case Jews are not white nor Europeans: genetic prove it.


Read the thread I linked. Some Finnish guy debunked this whole article.
Sorry, but between some Finnish guy or profesional genetists, I go with the second option.
And my Semite friend, really I dont need any article for know several things

http://1baltic1bullet.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/tarja-halonen.jpg
http://www.la-redo.net/wpNew/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/litmanen-ajax.jpg
http://www.footballtop.com/sites/default/files/photos/players/maenpaa_305.jpg



Are Russians the Mongols of Europe?
I repeat you: I dont care Russians, this thread is about Finns.


Finns are much Whiter, I'm sure most people will agree.
I dont care what people of this forum (interested in majority of ways) think about that comparation.
People in this forum consider white to SilverKnight :thumb001:

[Gomorra]

Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?

Who cares. I mean. Really!

[Smeagol]

Nigger blood? are you crazy or what?
But yes, a ridicolous % of Spaniards have North African blood, genetic prove it, but here we are discussing about the Mongol blood in Finns, which Spaniards dont have, and genetic does prove in Finn case.

What I mean is Spaniards have more African blood than Finns who have 0%. To me, having Asian blood is better than having Africoon blood.


It's funny that when you are interesed you speak about genetics; in this case Jews are not white nor Europeans: genetic prove it.

Actually, Jews cluster in southeastern Europe.



Sorry, but between some Finnish guy or profesional genetists, I go with the second option.
And my Semite friend, really I dont need any article for know several things

Professional geneticists? the guy who wrote the article is a moron, who never gave any proof for his claim that Finns were 1/3 Asian. Actually Finns are only 1/16 Asian, and it's all very ancient admixture.


http://1baltic1bullet.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/tarja-halonen.jpg
http://www.la-redo.net/wpNew/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/litmanen-ajax.jpg
http://www.footballtop.com/sites/default/files/photos/players/maenpaa_305.jpg


Cro-Magnons.

[Anthropologique]

What I mean is Spaniards have more African blood than Finns who have 0%. To me, having Asian blood is better than having Africoon blood.



Actually, Jews cluster in southeastern Europe.




Professional geneticists? the guy who wrote the article is a moron, who never gave any proof for his claim that Finns were 1/3 Asian. Actually Finns are only 1/16 Asian, and it's all very ancient admixture.



Cro-Magnons.


Are people forgetting how ancient SSA is in ALL Euros? It doesn't affect phenotype, so it shouldn't part of the discussion ... nor should Mongolian markers.

[Smeagol]

Are people forgetting how ancient SSA is in ALL Euros? It doesn't affect phenotype, so it shouldn't part of the discussion ... nor should Mongolian markers.

True, but since Christiano was bringing up ancient Siberian blood in the Finns...

[Anthropologique]

True, but since Christiano was bringing up ancient Siberian blood in the Finns...

Hey, some things aren't worth discussing. I have no problem with Finns having Siberian (if that's what it is), whatever. Finns look more Baltid than anything else, not like Eskimos. LOL!

[Smeagol]

Hey, some things aren't worth discussing. I have no problem with Finn having Siberian (if that's what it is), whatever. Finns look more Baltid than anything else, not like Eskimos. LOL!

Finns for the most part are Nordic/Baltid mix.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Finns for the most part are Nordic/Baltid mix.

Pure Nordids & pure Baltids are very rare anyways.

Usually they are a mix of both.

A lot of Nordids probably are just less robust Cro Magnons anyways.

[Visitor_22]

Yes both Lithuanians and Finns are very Northern European like genetically overall. Finns though do have some Siberian/North Eurasian ancestry that other Europeans do not have that tends to show up at around 6% or so on average or so on ADMIXTURE analysis. The Saami and North Russians also have this type of Siberian/North Eurasian admixture as well.

Wrong. Finns carry same Y haplogroup as arctic mongoloid, semi-mongoloid people.

[Smeagol]

Wrong. Finns carry same Y haplogroup as arctic mongoloid, semi-mongoloid people.

It doesn't matter, autosomaly they are very European.

[Black Wolf]

True, but Cro Magnon man the original European came out closest to Finland of all samples.

Although that correlates closely with Northern European DNA thus I suspect Lithuanians are actually the most like Cro Magnon!

Yup I think Lithuanians are as well. Finns are a close second though. :)

[Black Wolf]

Wrong. Finns carry same Y haplogroup as arctic mongoloid, semi-mongoloid people.

Y-chromosome haplogroups make up a very small proportion of an individual's overall ancestry. Autosomal DNA shows the bigger picture and autosomally overall Lithuanians (who also have a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup N1c) and Finns are both much more Northern European that anything else.

[riverman]

.......

[riverman]

Y-chromosome haplogroups make up a very small proportion of an individual's overall ancestry. Autosomal DNA shows the bigger picture and autosomally overall Lithuanians (who also have a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup N1c) and Finns are both much more Northern European that anything else.

But, not necessarily right? It isn't like everyone would be totally distant from the haplogroup marker.

[Black Wolf]

But, not necessarily right? It isn't like everyone would be totally distant from the haplogroup marker.

It all depends. It can be very complex sometimes. For example some of the haplogroup N1c Y-DNA ancestors of Finns may have arrived in say Central Russia from Siberia during the later Neolithic or even Bronze Age. They may have been a very small group. There they mixed with the natives who were largely of North European genetic background. They then migrated to a sparsely populated Finland in small numbers as an already autosomally admixed population and mixed again with the natives there who were already ultra North European genetically. They may have had some sort of technological (maybe some Bronze) advantage over the locals and that is why their male lineages were preserved. Their original Siberian autosomal type ancestry as a result has been heavily reduced. Hence Finns are very North European when it comes to autosomal DNA with some Siberian like DNA as well.

[Gomorra]

One thing is sure. Finns are volatile/varying bunch of people.

[riverman]

It all depends. It can be very complex sometimes. For example some of the haplogroup N1c Y-DNA ancestors of Finns may have arrived in say Central Russia from Siberia during the later Neolithic or even Bronze Age. They may have been a very small group. There they mixed with the natives who were largely of North European genetic background. They then migrated to a sparsely populated Finland in small numbers as an already autosomally admixed population and mixed again with the natives there who were already ultra North European genetically. They may have had some sort of technological (maybe some Bronze) advantage over the locals and that is why their male lineages were preserved. Their original Siberian autosomal type ancestry as a result has been heavily reduced. Hence Finns are very North European when it comes to autosomal DNA with some Siberian like DNA as well.

From looking at pics of Finns, that would be my impression as well, but I wonder if the marker is more evidenced even elsewhere, like Norway. Definitely visible asian features in some Norwegians, examples have been posted on the forum. One issue I have is the distancing generally of European from Asian markers, there really must have been enough to influence looks on that sort of scale, Asian admix in general can be very diluted looking, I've noticed this from meeting half west euro/Japanese people.
Anyways, I prefer the term Asiatic, as we're really dealing with crossover genetics/looks, not distant to distant admix.

[Stanley]

Wiik also argues that Finnish men carry Mongoloid genes to a greater extent than Finnish women
That's a rather disingenuous way of relating the Y-DNA evidence.

[Gomorra]

Jaxman. If you deny big genetic distances among Finns(aDNA)? Population is small in Finland but genetic distances are quite big. Finns are diverse. On local scale they could be homogeneous. But big picture is diverse.

[sevruk]

lol, Spaniard reasoning about the purity of blood is a joke

[Cristiano viejo]

What I mean is Spaniards have more African blood than Finns who have 0%. To me, having Asian blood is better than having Africoon blood.

For start, that African blood (Moorish blood) which you talk is not Black blood. In fact ancient Berbers were from white race, nothing to do with current Moors.

For last, I dont give a shit about your opinion about what blood is better; both are non European blood. Final point.

Actually, Jews cluster in southeastern Europe.
If you speak of genetics to blame that there are non 100% pure Spaniards, should then apply this logic with the Jews: absolutely all the Jews have high percentages of non-European blood. And yet you defend that Jews are white and pure Europeans :rolleyes:
NONSENSE.

Professional geneticists? the guy who wrote the article is a moron, who never gave any proof for his claim that Finns were 1/3 Asian. Actually Finns are only 1/16 Asian, and it's all very ancient admixture.
That moron quote works of professional genetists.


Cro-Magnons.
:laugh:

Finns for the most part are Nordic/Baltid mix.

It doesn't matter, autosomaly they are very European.
Most of Spaniards are Atlanto Meds, and autosomaly they are very European.
So what with your afirmation?


lol, Spaniard reasoning about the purity of blood is a joke

The same joke that a Russian reasoning the same matter. And genetic support me, vast majority of Spaniards are racially pure.

But it´s funny, because in this forum all kind of people do it: Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, Amerindians... even Russians, and no one say nothing.
If it bothers you to talk of the remarkable mongolization in this area of Europe, you can go.

http://www.lapland-travel-info.com/image-files/sami-girl-from-northfinland.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3459/1588076400tervaniemi3ev6.jpg

http://highstakesnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/larsluzak.jpg?w=510

http://www.fishingworld.com.au/images/dmImage/SourceImage/markku%20and%20sami%20-%20sydney%202%20610.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/4419743243_c2ae173f47_o.jpg

http://cartinafinland.fi/en/imagebank/image/12/12081/young+finnish+woman+12081.jpg

[Anthropologique]

lol, Spaniard reasoning about the purity of blood is a joke

There is no such thing as "purity of blood."

[blogen]

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3459/1588076400tervaniemi3ev6.jpg
http://highstakesnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/larsluzak.jpg?w=510
http://www.fishingworld.com.au/images/dmImage/SourceImage/markku%20and%20sami%20-%20sydney%202%20610.jpg

These peoples are clear Caucasoids.

[Cristiano viejo]

These peoples are clear Caucasoids.

It´s your opinion. If you understand Caucasoids as white/European, I disagree.

[sevruk]

If it bothers you to talk of the remarkable mongolization in this area of Europe, you can go.

http://www.lapland-travel-info.com/image-files/sami-girl-from-northfinland.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3459/1588076400tervaniemi3ev6.jpg

http://highstakesnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/larsluzak.jpg?w=510

http://www.fishingworld.com.au/images/dmImage/SourceImage/markku%20and%20sami%20-%20sydney%202%20610.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/4419743243_c2ae173f47_o.jpg

http://cartinafinland.fi/en/imagebank/image/12/12081/young+finnish+woman+12081.jpg

You're cherrypicking, nigga

Also the first image - Sami

[blogen]

It´s your opinion. If you understand Caucasoids as white/European, I disagree.

What is the Mongoloid on them? Their cheekbone is rounded, but the not rounded (projected) is the most fundamental Mongoloid (and Amerindian) heritage.

[Permafrost]

Why are Russians defending Finns on this thread?

This is so touching actually... I think I'll shed a tear...

[Cristiano viejo]

You're cherrypicking, nigga
Welcome to club, Gypo, and great argument, now these Finns are not Mongol :rolleyes: and now Finland will no longer be associated with the Mongols for ever :rolleyes:

Also the first image - Sami
Sami are Martians, I guess...
Leave the vodka, Mongol.

What is the Mongoloid on them? Their cheekbone is rounded, but the not rounded (projected) is the most fundamental Mongoloid (and Amerindian) heritage.

I see in them Mongolian features such as eyes, nose and cheek :noidea:

[blogen]

I see in them Mongolian features such as eyes, nose and cheek :noidea:

What is the Mongoloid features on their nose, eyes and cheek? :picard1:

[sevruk]

Why are Russians defending Finns on this thread?


I'm not defending Finns. Just stop trolling from Spanish niggers

[Cristiano viejo]

What is the Mongoloid features on their nose, eyes and cheek? :picard1:

My God, are you blind? they present clear Mongolian features. Their nose is very Mongolian... look their eyes, they are clearly torn for European standards.

[blogen]

My God, are you blind? they present clear Mongolian features. Their nose is very Mongolian... look their eyes, they are clearly torn for European standards.

No, I am not and that is the problem! I look at them and i don't see it one single non Caucasoid character. So what are these characters?

[Cristiano viejo]

I'm not defending Finns. Just stop trolling from Spanish niggers

Nigger like Russians from Caucasus?
Nah, you feel the Mongol conexion, recognize it.

[Cristiano viejo]

No, I am not and that is the problem! I look at them and i don't see it one single non Caucasoid character. So what are these characters?

Dont you see in this guy his torn eyes? seriously?

http://highstakesnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/larsluzak.jpg?w=510

[sevruk]

Nigger like Russians from Caucasus?


Well, North Caucasians were not raped by the Moors;)

[Insuperable]

Christiano Viejo is just butthurt for not being a Finn ubermensch

[Accountant]

Everyone is allowed to form their own opinion:

http://yle.fi/urheilu/tapahtumat/vancouverin_olympialaiset_2010/olympiaradio/kuvat/id165623-kuva1.jpg

http://cdn1.chillnite.com/wp-content/gallery/pekka-eric_auvinen___jokela_high_school_massacre/Natural%20Selector%208.png

http://www.pokerisivut.com/resources/images/ziigmund3_0.jpg

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/moottoriurheilu/rataautoilu/535827.jpg

http://img.avatv.fi/mn_kuvat/ava/tahdet/2012/10/1520939.jpg

http://www.aka.fi/Tiedostot/Apropos_kuvat_2011/SuomalainenSakke400px.jpg

http://is13.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288416252830.jpeg

http://virtuyu.julkaisee.fi/files/virtuyu.julkaisee.fi/kuvat/urheilijat/jarvinen_kaisa.jpg

[inactive_member]

Haven't we settled this already in chatbox? Slavics, Finnics, & Scandinavians are mongolians. Everyone else in Europe is Africans & Arabs.

It became apparent a while ago. Southern European are negros, eastern Europeans are mongols. We haven't decided about north-western Europeans.

[blogen]

Dont you see in this guy his torn eyes? seriously?

http://highstakesnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/larsluzak.jpg?w=510

No. And anyway, his skull does not have an europo-mongoloid character, than this man:

http://img.avatv.fi/mn_kuvat/ava/tahdet/2012/10/1520939.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2240/4txc.jpg

The face shows the zygomatic bone (http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9959/z402.jpg), and the frontally flat Mongoloid zygomatic bone modifies the proportions of the face! Flat face, this is the Mongoloid and Amerind caracter and the mixes inherit this.

The Europo-Mongoloid mixed type is rare between the Finns, the average Finnish people are Caucasoid.

[Peikko]

Spaniards are more Caucasoid.
So are Iranians.

Native North Africans who were not mixed are whiter than Siberians.
Keep on believing in fairytales.

OP is just jelly. He can pass in Morocco, while I can pass in the Netherlands.

[RussiaPrussia]

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

https://downloader.disk.yandex.com/preview/9852c8de43872ca5e668b6007cfce9d7/mpfs/lNGBcermVLHuxdxYauA22OhADASNlk9x0E5p8khOQNoqL52v0R yI-itx3ubwtqGnyFOAlhKYxVqGZwkbhR8bBA%3D%3D?uid=0&filename=mathpng&disposition=inline&hash=&limit=0&content_type=image%2Fpng&size=XXL&crop=0

[WOOHP]

It became apparent a while ago. Southern European are negros, eastern Europeans are mongols. We haven't decided about north-western Europeans.

Where do you think the term White-Anglo-Saxon-White came from? No one else but the English were included. Got to be a reason why ;)

[Peikko]

As long as we're cherry picking:
http://s5.as.com/recorte/20091008dasdasftb_19/C280/Ies/Sergio_Asenjo.jpg

[glass]

some finn mentioned negro admix among iberians recently or what?


http://www.lapland-travel-info.com/image-files/sami-girl-from-northfinland.jpg

actually i like such faces, if she was thinner i would even call her pretty

[Cristiano viejo]

Well, North Caucasians were not raped by the Moors;)
My ancestors were precisely those who expelled Moors of my country. I dont know if you can say the same with Алтын Урда :)
Now tell me, how many Moors are living currently in Moscow in particular and in Russia in general? better said, how many million of them do?


OP is just jelly. He can pass in Morocco, while I can pass in the Netherlands.

Really I can not pass in Morocco, I dont know from where you can think that. If you can pass in Netherlands it´s not my problem and I dont care.

[Hweinlant]

My ancestors were precisely those who expelled Moors of my country.

How is that possible when your average Spaniard is over 10% negro in autosomal dna ?

[Cristiano viejo]

How is that possible when your average Spaniard is over 10% negro in autosomal dna ?

Dont say nonsense, please.

[Äike]

Estonians and Finns are the least influenced by Neolithic Indo-European steppe-invaders, thus the reason why we have retained our ancient European language and our Northern-European traits. Finnics are the lightest people in the world, followed by the Scandinavians (who are the least IE-influenced Indo-Europeans, most of their ancestry consists of Upper Paleolithic Northern-Europeans/Finno-Ugrians)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Really I can not pass in Morocco, I dont know from where you can think that. If you can pass in Netherlands it´s not my problem and I dont care.

How many white, white people are in Netherlands, today? A lot less than in northern Spain, that's for sure.

[Äike]

True, but Cro Magnon man the original European came out closest to Finland of all samples.

Although that correlates closely with Northern European DNA thus I suspect Lithuanians are actually the most like Cro Magnon!

1. Lithuanians look like Slavs

2. Estonians, Finns and the Saami have the highest amount of Upper Paleolithic genes, as we are the original Europeans. All other Europeans are just steppeniggers who invaded Europe from Central-Asia, the Middle-East or modern-day Turkey.

Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10.000 years ago.

[Peikko]

Really I can not pass in Morocco, I dont know from where you can think that.
Prove it.

[eeroli]

These southern "europeans" are, what they are actually, dark skin, dark eye half-niggers wannabe white. Sorry, Live with it.

[Cristiano viejo]

How many white, white people are in Netherlands, today? A lot less than in northern Spain, that's for sure.
I dont know but one thing is sure, they have many more immigrants than we in North Spain, and since many time ago.


Finnics are the lightest people in the world
That does not mean to be whiter.

2. Estonians, Finns and the Saami have the highest amount of Upper Paleolithic genes, as we are the original Europeans.
Iberians, and particulary the Basques, score a high amount of r1b haplogroup, and they (we) are THE original Europeans.


Prove it.
You are who must prove it, since you are who accused me to be Moroccan.

These southern "europeans" are, what they are actually, dark skin, dark eye half-niggers wannabe white. Sorry, Live with it.
Bearing specimens like this in Finland, I dont know how you dare to talk about niggas :p

http://www.fanclub-vvv.nl/documenten/image/Foto's%202012-2013/pp11071184894.jpg

He resembles a terrorist of Al Qaeda.
I bet that there are more so in Finland.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

1. Lithuanians look like Slavs

2. Estonians, Finns and the Saami have the highest amount of Upper Paleolithic genes, as we are the original Europeans. All other Europeans are just steppeniggers who invaded Europe from Central-Asia, the Middle-East or modern-day Turkey.

Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10.000 years ago.

The highest North European DNA in Lithuanians may suggest that they might be more Upper Paleolithic!

[Hweinlant]

Bearing specimens like this in Finland, I dont know how you dare to talk about niggas :p

http://www.fanclub-vvv.nl/documenten/image/Foto's%202012-2013/pp11071184894.jpg

He resembles a terrorist of Al Qaeda.
I bet that there are more so in Finland.

He is propably half-spanish. Such moorish features are alien to Finnish race.

[Peikko]

You are who must prove it, since you are who accused me to be Moroccan.

I didn't say you're moroccan, I said you can pass in Morocco.

Bearing specimens like this in Finland, I dont know how you dare to talk about niggas :p

http://www.fanclub-vvv.nl/documenten/image/Foto's%202012-2013/pp11071184894.jpg

He resembles a terrorist of Al Qaeda.
I bet that there are more so in Finland.
He's the most Spanish looking Finn I've ever seen. We did speculate about his ancestry once. It's possible, that he has recent foreign ancestry. For all we know, his grandpa could be Spanish.

[Lábaru]

Finns are Russian in denial.

[Hweinlant]

Finns are Russian in denial.

Finns are actually Mesolithic Iberians

https://sites.google.com/site/fennobga/AncientIberianEuriopeD1-D2.png

http://fennoscandia.blogspot.no/2013...variation.html

Note the location of mesolithic La Brana sample from the Atlantic Facade of Northern Spain. So before the neolithic mulattoes and negroid moors took over, Spain was pretty much Atlantic Facade Finland ;)

[Dombra]

The Spaniards want revenge :lol:

Finns have some admixture but it is not as visible as lets say, Iberians. Apart from some minor asian admixture Finns are the most pure Europeans :cool:

[Han Cholo]

The Spaniards want revenge :lol:

Finns have some admixture but it is not as visible as lets say, Iberians. Apart from some minor asian admixture Finns are the most pure Europeans :cool:

That you are more used to it and unable to see it does not mean it is not as visible.

[Dombra]

That you are more used to it and unable to see it does not mean it is not as visible.

It is much more common for people to spot "moors" among Spaniards than "Finngolians". Even if most of Spain looks normal European even most irl can spot African influenced people while they see Finns as the exact same as Swedes :lol:

[Han Cholo]

It is much more common for people to spot "moors" among Spaniards than "Finngolians". Even if most of Spain looks normal European even most irl can spot African influenced people while they see Finns as the exact same as Swedes :lol:

Some people rather see Finns as the exact same as Russians. It does not mean they are strictly Russians, or even Khanties for that matter. One needs to observe this coldly and not get blinded by dumb stereotypes.

[Lábaru]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Finnish_Types.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://content.dnalc.org/content/c11/11563/11563.jpg

[Han Cholo]

I should add that we have to put aside half truths and non-consequent generalizations or misrepresentation of facts. There have been historical misrepresentations of the Finns by their Swedish speaking minorities in the past. It's quite interesting to see the radical change of some Swedes seeing Finns as "just like them". There was a "Svecoman" movement in Finland during some time:


Finland had been a part of Sweden from the early Middle Ages until the Finnish War of 1808-9, when it was ceded to Russia and made a Grand Duchy within the Russian Empire. Although Finnish was the language of the majority of the new Grand Duchy, a significant minority was Swedish-speaking. Swedish had always been the language of administration and science when Finland was part of the Swedish realm and this status continued virtually unchallenged well into the second half of the 19th Century.

The Svecomans promoted the idea that Finland harbours two peoples, or nations, speaking different languages, with different cultures, and originating from separate parts of the country. In accordance with contemporary science, these two peoples were consequently denoted as members of different "races". This idea was radically new. Until then, the Swedish-speaking rural population had been mostly ignored, but now this minority was considered important and directly associated with the elite of Finland.

It was a popular belief[citation needed] among Svecomans that their "Germanic race" is more successful in ruling and that the Fennoman program would therefore make Finland weaker and more vulnerable to the Russian threat. Svecomans were inspired[citation needed] by contemporary popular ideas and scientific racism thesis represented by Herder, Gobineau, Blumenbach, phrenologists, and social Darwinists. Svecomans believed that "race creates culture"[citation needed] rather than the reverse, but they were also inspired by the power relations on the European continent[citation needed]. (Germanic) Prussians had recently defeated the French and established a German Empire, and the ("originally Germanic") British Empire ruled over the seas and had defeated Imperial Russia in the Crimean War. The situation in Austria-Hungary also seemed to prove the thesis since Germanic Austrians ruled over the Magyars, a Finno-Ugric people like the ethnic Finns. Even in nearby Estonia, also part of Russia, the Finnic Estonians were ruled by the Baltic German aristocracy.

With new genetic tests, we can now see past these ideologically motivated "racial classifications" as Swedes are closer to Finns (despite their higher Eastern admixture) than they are to other "Germanic" people like the German Swiss or Austrians. These tests have also proved us that Iberians resemble the populations north of them far more than they resemble those who are at the south. There is slight North African admixture (4.3%) in Iberians and realistically speaking it's really little considering the proximity. One guy posted a graph showing "La Braña" sample showing, according to him, that mesolithic Iberians were "Finns" but forgot to mention that this La Braña sample, despite being heavily mesolithic in ancestry which concentrates now more in Finland, is more than the double North African (10%) than modern Iberians.

If anything Finns should empathize a bit with the Iberians as both of them have been historically victims of severe propaganda in order to demoralize, corrupt and destabilize their identities.

[Hweinlant]

These tests have also proved us that Iberians resemble the populations north of them far more than they resemble those who are at the south. There is slight North African admixture (4.3%) in Iberians and realistically speaking it's really little considering the proximity.


Iberians are 9-10% Africans, using RFmix and Sahrawi (MOOORS!) as African anchor. Iberians are 3-4% Subsaharan African with ROLLOFF using Yoruba as African anchor.

I refer you to Moorjani et al 2011 and Botigué et al 2013.

Granddaddy of Spaniards:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Sahrawi%26camel.jpg/170px-Sahrawi%26camel.jpg



One guy posted a graph showing "La Braña" sample showing, according to him, that mesolithic Iberians were "Finns" but forgot to mention that this La Braña sample, despite being heavily mesolithic in ancestry which concentrates now more in Finland, is more than the double North African (10%) than modern Iberians.

Yep, there is no African anchor in that PCA, so "Africanity of La Brana" is not measured at all, as such principle component can not be calculated without the African anchor. Having said that, I'm somewhat skeptical to the methodology Dienekes used when he calculated those admix-frequencies for La Brana et al. Afterall he forced the ancient samples to match the modern genetic pools. Thats fully anachronistic way of doing things. Grand-dad does not inherit genetic material from his grand-children, it's just the opposite, yet that's exactly the way Dienekes measured it.

[Lábaru]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Finnish_Types.jpg

the subhuman(quasi retard) of the first pic is a very common type of Finnish, I do not know how to classify him correctly, clearly has features in common with the leader of the true Finns party although this specimen has a swollen face, some sort of Borreby type or to be more precise a kind of depigmented black man.
http://noticias.terra.es/2011/mundo/0418/fotos-media/finlandia-elecciones-el-lider-de-la-ultraderecha-finlandesa-quiere-renegociar-el-rescate-portugues.jpg

in any case the noticeable presence of infra/subhuman in Finland and Scandinavia is well documented.

[Äike]

Iberians, and particulary the Basques, score a high amount of r1b haplogroup, and they (we) are THE original Europeans.

lol, you can only find Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnon skulls in Spain, that's all that ties to us, the Upper Paleolithic survivors of Northern-Europe.

[eeroli]

Spaniards, well they want to be white like that fat fuck gypsy. I do not hate, i actually understand.

[Peikko]

Edit: I meant to quote another post.

[Lábaru]

Funny how you try to insult the Saamis who are your own ancestors. I think Iberians try to portrait Finns as mongoloids because of their own insecurities. They know that they're not fully white themselves.

Are you talking about the pseudoFinns of La braña? is proven that these two individuals were slaves under the service of the ancients peninsulares, the work of these two slaves was to clean the latrines.

[Peikko]

Are you talking about the pseudoFinns of La braña? is proven that these two individuals were slaves under the service of the ancients peninsulares, the work of these two slaves was to clean the latrines.
No, I'm talking about DNA. Google it up, I'm posting from my phone.

[Lábaru]

No, I'm talking about DNA. Google it up, I'm posting from my phone.

Then you are very confused, maybe your face is similar to the type of the first picture?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Finnish_Types.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

He is propably half-spanish. Such moorish features are alien to Finnish race.
Probaly... maybe... perhaps... blablablabla he is a nigga Finnish, this is a undeniable fact.
From now on, and taking into account the fact that in Finland there are niggas as Niki Maenpaa, every time you get any picture of any dark Spaniard, I will say that he is Finnish.

I didn't say you're moroccan, I said you can pass in Morocco.
It´s the same. But ok, prove that I can pass in Morocco. Hard, taking into account that you dont know me, and that I am like most Spaniards.
Do you think seriously that this guy (typical Spaniard) can pass in Morocco?
http://pensamientospastosos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/albertogarzon.jpg


He's the most Spanish looking Finn I've ever seen. We did speculate about his ancestry once. It's possible, that he has recent foreign ancestry. For all we know, his grandpa could be Spanish.
The same as with the previous Mongolian :rolleyes:... could be... perhaps... maybe... it´s propable... BLABLABLA He is 100% Finnish. You can not be so coward; the Spaniards could do the same thing every time I put a picture of some dark Spanish.
He is Finnish, assume it, final point.

Finns are Russian in denial.
+1

The Spaniards want revenge :lol:

Finns have some admixture but it is not as visible as lets say, Iberians.
Visible or not, you have it. Enough for me.
But YES, it´s visible. Perhaps you can not see it precisely for having the eyes of Chinese that you have ;), but people with normal eyes as us, we do can see it :thumb001:

Apart from some minor asian admixture Finns are the most pure Europeans :cool:
Are you aware of the stupidity that you just write?????
How can speak of purity of a people, and in the same sentence have recognized that this people is mixed with Mongols? :laugh2:

It is much more common for people to spot "moors" among Spaniards than "Finngolians". Even if most of Spain looks normal European even most irl can spot African influenced people while they see Finns as the exact same as Swedes :lol:
Continue dreaming, Genghis.

Iberians are 9-10% Africans, using RFmix and Sahrawi (MOOORS!) as African anchor. Iberians are 3-4% Subsaharan African with ROLLOFF using Yoruba as African anchor.

I refer you to Moorjani et al 2011 and Botigué et al 2013.
Stop nonsense, Bruce Lee.


http://noticias.terra.es/2011/mundo/0418/fotos-media/finlandia-elecciones-el-lider-de-la-ultraderecha-finlandesa-quiere-renegociar-el-rescate-portugues.jpg

in any case the noticeable presence of infra/subhuman in Finland and Scandinavia is well documented.
He seems to have Down Syndrome... typical Mongolian features.

lol, you can only find Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnon skulls in Spain, that's all that ties to us, the Upper Paleolithic survivors of Northern-Europe.

You can save your ties for complex people. We dont want nor need to be tied to you Mongols.

[WOOHP]

Thread created by woggy insecure Spaniards, no surprise here.

[Cristiano viejo]

Thread created by woggy insecure Spaniards, no surprise here.

According your logic, all of you are woggy insecure "people", because the forum is full with threads like this in antiIberian way.

[riverman]

Spaniards, well they want to be white like that fat fuck gypsy. I do not hate, i actually understand.

Define white, if you mean Caucasoid, Spaniards are caucasoid.

[Lábaru]

I had always thought that Spaniards are nice, friendly folk, but these Spaniards we have here seem to be one of the most hostile and arrogant creatures I've ever come across. Im glad you do not represent Spaniards in general.

As a Spanish member I can answer this. We are nice with those who deserve it, not with pieces of shit who spend their lives 24/7 obsessed with us, we call this attitude "infraseres".

I can assure you is the view shared by the majority of Spaniard.

[WOOHP]

According your logic, all of you are woggy insecure "people", because the forum is full with threads like this in antiIberian way.
Lol, what did the Finns do to you?

Me and some others here troll you because it's so easy and amusing.

[Cristiano viejo]

Lol, what did the Finns do to you?
Nah, just because it´s easy and amusing.

[Hweinlant]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Finnish_Types.jpg

the subhuman(quasi retard) of the first pic is a very common type of Finnish

Frankly, I dont quite understand what is so upsetting in him. Just a normal Troenderish/Corded Nordic farmer-guy in fucked up picture. Some modern guys with similar pheno.

http://is12.snstatic.fi/img/468/1288332974599.jpg
http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/viihde/555_px_leveat_kuvat/594757-max497x297.jpg

Poor trolling performance from you.

[blogen]

Frankly, I dont quite understand what is so upsetting in him. Just a normal Troenderish/Corded Nordic farmer-guy in fucked up picture. Some modern guys with similar pheno.

Yes, but the Spanish see a white man very rarely there at them in the deep south! :laugh:

[Hweinlant]

he is a nigga Finnish, this is a undeniable fact.


I never said being half-spanish makes you a nigga but if you really insist..



Stop nonsense, Bruce Lee.


There is nothing nonsense in anything I wrote. Educate yourself.

Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe, Laura R. Botigué et al 2013. (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/30/1306223110.abstract)

Since I'm actually a really nice guy I'll help you a bit:

Yes, you really are that much MOOR:
http://i43.tinypic.com/1zmo36v.png

Out of all Europeans you share the segments with Africans like no other, only Basques are normal European in this sense. If it helps at all, all those Greeks and Cypriots and whatever are hardly European either. Bloody arabs they are.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2aiojzr.jpg

And when looking this stuff in bigger picture:
http://i40.tinypic.com/vpyiq0.png

Africa really starts with Pyrenees. Pay attention to massive difference between French and Iberians (Basques are no Iberians, thats for sure). Since I'm sure you have no idea how to read that chart, I'll let you know a neat little trick. Bigger the number, more MOOORR!. HTH.

Btw; Your moorish grandmother
http://www.freedomtocreate.com/images/content/Aziza-Brahim.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

I am from Basque origin, MONGOL. And yes, I am Iberian. Take a book about Spanish history, Bruce Lee.

[Hweinlant]

I am from Basque origin, MONGOL. And yes, I am Iberian. Take a book about Spanish history, Bruce Lee.

You can congratulate yourself. You are significantly less MOOOR than 99% of Iberians. You are infact more like French than Spaniard then.

[Cristiano viejo]

You can congratulate yourself. You are significantly less MOOOR than 99% of Iberians. You are infact more like French than Spaniard then.

As I said, you need take a book about Spanish history. Absolutely all Spaniards have, in more or less degree, Basque ancestry.
MONGOL. NANUK THE SKYMO. Even in your more deep and wet dreams, 90% of Spaniards are free of African blood, although I dont give a crap about your pics of above.
They get 0.09 for Spain, 0.07 for Italy, 0.06 for Hungary, 0.05 for France WOW great difference :rolleyes:
Later, for Spain and France they get 0.14, for Itali 0.20 etc for Qatari blood. Funny :laugh2:

For your thirld pic, well, people who made it deserve a good beating :picard1: Galicia (North Spain) with more percentage than Andalusia (South Spain)?? :laugh2: Again, I dont give a holy crap for this "study" :rolleyes:

But wait, Nanuk... what is your point... that Spaniards are Moors "because they score North African blood", or that "Spaniards are more Moors than rest of Europe"?? because Bruce, I am seeing that absolutely all countries score percentages for North Africa :picard1:
MORON.

[Gaston]

Mongols and Moors are great people with nice civilizations, I don't see why people are fighting about these respective ancestries. Although Mongol ancestry in Finland is totally bullshit, Finns are indeed significantly more East Eurasian than other Europeans (and there are still other Europeans with more East Eurasian ancestry than them!). But don't forget Spaniards too have East Eurasian ancestry and it's even higher than their substantial African ancestry.

[Hweinlant]

For your thirld pic, well, people who made it deserve a good beating :picard1: Galicia (North Spain) with more percentage than Andalusia (South Spain)?? :laugh2: Again, I dont give a holy crap for this "study" :rolleyes:


It's getting pretty boring to talk with you, as you clearly have no clue. Zamora-province (Castile and León) has some mind blowing figures for African mtdna. Sayago county alone scores something like 18% for mtdna L.



In the province of Zamora, if the total number of African lineages are taken into account (Hgs L1b, L2b, L3, M1, and U6a1a), the contribution represents 5.7% of the total Hg composition. As regards North African lineages, only one mtDNA type belonging to U6a1a Hg was found in the province, more precisely in the Sanabria region. The Ht ZA117 is observed in Algeria, Italy, and, inside the Iberian Peninsula, it is found in the North-Western populations of León and Cantabria. There is a low frequency of U6 Hg in Iberia, its presence being higher in the North: 5.35% in Northern Portugal, 2.17% in Galicia, and 8.1% in Maragatos (León). Hg M1 is found in Andalusia and Central Portugal although the Ht ZA6, found in Campos-Pan, does not correspond to any of the previously detected Ht in Iberia.

As regards sub-Saharan Hgs (L1b, L2b, and L3b), the high frequency found in the southern regions of Zamora, 18.2% in Sayago and 8.1% in Bajo Duero, is comparable to that described for the South of Portugal


Mitochondrial DNA patterns in the Iberian Northern plateau: Population dynamics and substructure of the Zamora province, Luis Alvarez et al 2010.

Anyhoo, like I said this is getting boring, and pretty awkward. Like beating a disabled kid or something like that.

[Lábaru]

Cristiano te ganan la mano muy fácil, te estás justificando en tu propio hilo en vez de centrarte en tu objetivo e ignorar el resto.

[Kiyant]

Finns have East Asian/Siberian genes but that doesnt make them mongol or are all East Asians or East asian influenced people mongol in your opinion eventhough Turkics and Finnics are much older.

[Jusarius]

Cristiano te ganan la mano muy fácil, te estás justificando en tu propio hilo en vez de centrarte en tu objetivo e ignorar el resto.He can't because he is the crappiest troll I've seen in a long time.

[Peikko]

Then you are very confused, maybe your face is similar to the type of the first picture?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Finnish_Types.jpg
Well, I don't. But if I did, I wouldn't see anything wrong about it.

[Lábaru]

He can't because he is the crappiest troll I've seen in a long time.

Eleven pages and I'm seeing more Finns than ever in the history of this forum writing in the thread, not so bad.

[Cristiano viejo]

It's getting pretty boring to talk with you, as you clearly have no clue. Zamora-province (Castile and León) has some mind blowing figures for African mtdna. Sayago county alone scores something like 18% for mtdna L.



Mitochondrial DNA patterns in the Iberian Northern plateau: Population dynamics and substructure of the Zamora province, Luis Alvarez et al 2010.

Anyhoo, like I said this is getting boring, and pretty awkward. Like beating a disabled kid or something like that.
These percentage are ridicolous and they contradict your earlier source, according to which in Galicia the % was higher than in Andalusia.



Finns have East Asian/Siberian genes but that doesnt make them mongol or are all East Asians or East asian influenced people mongol.
Their appearance does them Mongols, IMO.



With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (58%), I (29%), R1a (7.5%) and R1b (3.5%).
Haplogroup N1c, which is found only in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland and Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated in a recent study to be 10,000–20,000 years old and suggested to have entered Europe about 12,000–14,000 years ago from Asia.

almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with Siberian populations.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Mikka+Hakkinen+2010+Laureus+Awards+Nominations+RYw 6PW-HGdTl.jpg

https://tuhat.halvi.helsinki.fi/portal/files/9030623/Atte.jpg

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/luistelu/2009/633366.jpg



Eso debe ser porque hay cuarenta mongoles aquí, y yo estoy como Bernardo de Gálvez, solo.
Y porque me gusta rebatir los argumentos, en vez de callarme como una puta.

[Lábaru]

http://www.mongolia-web.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/mongolian_finns.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4026/finnpg0.jpg

http://www.angelit.net/bilder/galerie/koruissa.

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/luistelu/2008/580017.jpg

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/7259/4502.jpg

http://www.telvis.fi/c/60466/4891_SamiGaram2_250.jpg

http://www.stureplan.se/articles/6941/images/article_image_c320e8da8fe880f6.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/5880/finnishladykd5.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZORiv1n7GOg

[Peikko]

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4026/finnpg0.jpg

http://www.angelit.net/bilder/galerie/koruissa.

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/luistelu/2008/580017.jpg

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/7259/4502.jpg

http://www.telvis.fi/c/60466/4891_SamiGaram2_250.jpg

http://www.stureplan.se/articles/6941/images/article_image_c320e8da8fe880f6.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/5880/finnishladykd5.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZORiv1n7GOg
Keep on mocking the Saamis, they are your ancestors. You still look more Moroccan than European.

[Atlantic Islander]

Haven't we settled this already in chatbox? Slavics, Finnics, & Scandinavians are mongolians. Everyone else in Europe is Africans & Arabs.

Is that where the silly Mongol Pride thing comes from? I wasn't online when that joke started.

[Peikko]

Probaly... maybe... perhaps... blablablabla he is a nigga Finnish, this is a undeniable fact.
From now on, and taking into account the fact that in Finland there are niggas as Niki Maenpaa, every time you get any picture of any dark Spaniard, I will say that he is Finnish.

You mean like Vitor Valdez? He looks like Mäenpää.
http://www.forodefotos.com/attachments/fotos-de-futbolistas/1954d1220339858-fotos-de-victor-vades-fotos-de-victor-valdez.jpg

It´s the same. But ok, prove that I can pass in Morocco. Hard, taking into account that you dont know me, and that I am like most Spaniards.
Do you think seriously that this guy (typical Spaniard) can pass in Morocco?
http://pensamientospastosos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/albertogarzon.jpg

Well post pictures of yourself and we'll see. The guy you posted can pass more easily in Morocco, than in Europe. He doesn't look like German or French.


Visible or not, you have it. Enough for me.
But YES, it´s visible. Perhaps you can not see it precisely for having the eyes of Chinese that you have ;), but people with normal eyes as us, we do can see it :thumb001:

Normal eyes? You do realize, that all Northern Europeans have smaller eyes, than Spaniards? Your eyes aren't normal, they're big. Just like arabs' and Africans' eyes.

[blogen]

https://tuhat.halvi.helsinki.fi/portal/files/9030623/Atte.jpg
http://www.telvis.fi/c/60466/4891_SamiGaram2_250.jpg
http://www.mongolia-web.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/mongolian_finns.jpg
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4026/finnpg0.jpg

Pure Caucasoids.

[Han Cholo]

[/img]

Well post pictures of yourself and we'll see. The guy you posted can pass more easily in Morocco, than in Europe. He doesn't look like German or French.


Normal eyes? You do realize, that all Northern Europeans have smaller eyes, than Spaniards? Your eyes aren't normal, they're big. Just like arabs' and Africans' eyes.

North Africans have small eyes:

Gaddafi:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fzzf5P2kRiM/TginBrC3-zI/AAAAAAAAFAo/O3IzaoJV8_w/s1600/gaddafi_10316.jpg

Morsi:
http://bicoltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Mohamed-Morsi.jpg

[blogen]

Do you think seriously that this guy (typical Spaniard) can pass in Morocco?
http://pensamientospastosos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/albertogarzon.jpg

This guy are swarthy in Central Europe. Typical Arab immigrant.

[Hweinlant]

These percentage are ridicolous and they contradict your earlier source, according to which in Galicia the % was higher than in Andalusia.


No, they are not ridiculous. They are cutting edge of genetic research atm. I'm sorry if the reality hurts you but average Spaniard is 10% MOOR. There is nothing I can do to change that fact, so my deepest condolences.

[Matuo]

This thread is nonsense. First of all, there is not such thing as "Siberian ancestry" or "Siberian admixture". Because there is a genetic diversity in Siberia itself (well, "Siberia" is contemporary term, applied to region, which is simply east from Ural mountains and belonging to Russia). Talking about f.e. Eskimos is such nonsense, when they are not even related to local populations in f.e. Western Siberia. Forum users express non-knowledge about Siberia. Nobody is even aware of f.e. such significant biogeographic border as Yenisei river, which splits Western Siberia away from Central Siberia:
- geologically (Western Siberian relict sea sediments, such as sand or oil vs Central Siberian relict volcanic rocks)
- geomorphologically (Western Siberian plain vs Central Siberian highlands)
- in terms of plant and animal species (west from Yenisei river animal and plant species are taxonomically closely related to Northern Europe, while east from river they are more related to Far East, Northern America regions etc.).

Yenisei river has been dividing also human populations for centuries. West from Yenisei river was traditionally inhabited by people of mixed "Eurasian" ancestry, such as Selkups, Kets, Nenets, Khanty, Mansi, Siberian Tatars etc. East from Yenisei river was inhabited by people of pred. "Asian" ancestry. such as Nganasans, Evenks etc. And the more to east, the less of European admixture, of course, at least if we exclude recent European (such as Russian) admixtures. But it doesn't mean there is not any diversity among local populations in Central or Eastern Siberia. Yakuts are clearly genetically different from f.e. Koryaks, even if both of them you would count as "Asians"

And regarding this "East Asian" thing. Siberia stretches from Europe's border (Ural mountains) to Pacific ocean. In other words, Siberia spans from Western Asia to Eastern Asia, in geographical terms. Western Siberia is, simply speaking, in Western Asia, so it is in no way East Asia, and the local inhabitants in Western Siberia are not East Asians! So, even if Finns have supposedly some roots from Siberia, it doesn't mean that there is anything "East Asian" about it. And yes, Western Siberian populations are not related to East Asians (whether Chukchis or Chinese) genetically, as far as I have seen.

And regarding Mongols. They are not much related to Western Siberian populations, let alone Finns!



(Sorry for contribution of something intelligent in this troll thread)

[Hweinlant]

http://www.telvis.fi/c/60466/4891_SamiGaram2_250.jpg
Pure Caucasoids.

This guy is half-Hungarian, half-Finnish. He is pretty much epitome of typical Central European looks. He could easily pass as anything from German to Swiss to Hungarian to Benelux.

http://static.iltalehti.fi/kotikokkiextra/eines_garam_HRU_ke.jpg

I'm starting to believe that there really is something very black hidden in the Iberian peninsula if they think this guy is a MONGOL ?

It's also pretty annoying to see Mika Häkkinen posted time after time as some sort of Asian celebrity posterboy. He is pretty typical North European. More of Northeast European. I fail to see anything specifically Asian in him. Infact your average Spaniard looks more Asian than Häkkinen.

http://static.iltalehti.fi/urheilu/etuhakkisf1JR_ur.jpg

- Häkkinen is 179cm tall (pretty average European hight)
- Häkkinen is light pigmented
- Häkkinen has blue eys

Asians tend to be lot shorter than 179cm, they allmost never have blue eyes and Häkkinen is obviously very depigmented.

Spaniards usually have dark hair (like Asians), Spaniards are shorter than Europeans (like Asians), Spaniards are more pigmented (like Asians). Think of Häkkinen walking in streets of Peking, he would shine like a beacon there. Clearly visible from the mass. Your average Spaniard with black hair would just melt in to the mass.

[blogen]

It's also pretty annoying to see Mika Häkkinen posted time after time as some sort of Asian celebrity posterboy. He is pretty typical North European. More of Northeast European. I fail to see anything specifically Asian in him. Infact your average Spaniard looks more Asian than Häkkinen.

http://static.iltalehti.fi/urheilu/etuhakkisf1JR_ur.jpg

- Häkkinen is 179cm tall (pretty average European hight)
- Häkkinen is light pigmented
- Häkkinen has blue eys

Asians tend to be lot shorter than 179cm, they allmost never have blue eyes and Häkkinen is obviously very depigmented.

Spaniards usually have dark hair (like Asians), Spaniards are shorter than Europeans (like Asians), Spaniards are more pigmented (like Asians). Think of Häkkinen walking in streets of Peking, he would shine like a beacon there. Clearly visible from the mass. Your average Spaniard with black hair would just melt in to the mass.

Mika Häkkinen is really Europo-Mongoloid. He has frontally flat zygomatic bone, look at his flat face and the situation of his zygomatic bone:

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5184/cxq5.jpg

[Matuo]

It's also pretty annoying to see Mika Häkkinen posted time after time as some sort of Asian celebrity posterboy. He is pretty typical North European. More of Northeast European. I fail to see anything specifically Asian in him. Infact your average Spaniard looks more Asian than Häkkinen.


- Häkkinen is 179cm tall (pretty average European hight)
- Häkkinen is light pigmented
- Häkkinen has blue eys

Asians tend to be lot shorter than 179cm, they allmost never have blue eyes and Häkkinen is obviously very depigmented.

Spaniards usually have dark hair (like Asians), Spaniards are shorter than Europeans (like Asians), Spaniards are more pigmented (like Asians). Think of Häkkinen walking in streets of Peking, he would shine like a beacon there. Clearly visible from the mass. Your average Spaniard with black hair would just melt in to the mass.
LOL Hweinlant, there are Asians with blonde hair and blue eyes :)

Guess to what ethnic group belongs this woman. Yes, she is from Asia, and yes, her ethnic group isn't an European one!

38074


The problem with term "Asian" is that it is so useless term! "Asian" means anything from Pakistani to Chukchi.

[Kiyant]

YOu guys know that the indeginous Siberian population are Turkic and not Mongols :picard1: (Still the finns are not Mongols or Turkic)

[blogen]

YOu guys know that the indeginous Siberian population are Turkic and not Mongols :picard1: (Still the finns are not Mongols or Turkic)

The indigenous Siberian population were Paleo-Siberians before the Altaic language speakers.

[Hweinlant]

Mika Häkkinen is really Europo-Mongoloid. He has frontally flat zygomatic bone, look at his flat face and the situation of his zygomatic bone:


Throw him into DNA test and he comes back as 99% North European.

[blogen]

Throw him into DNA test and he comes back as 99% North European.

Presumably yes (maybe execept the aDNA), but this does not make changes in his character.

[Hweinlant]

LOL Hweinlant, there are Asians with blonde hair and blue eyes :)

Guess to what ethnic group belongs this woman. Yes, she is from Asia, and yes, her ethnic group isn't an European one!


Geez.. She looks the way she does because the massive European dna influx in her genome. Just because she lives in Asia doesnt mean that her genome is Asian. There has been so many waves of Europids roaming in Siberia that pretty much all modern (west) Siberians have varying degrees of Euro-dna. I mean Aryans (Andronovo), Hungarians (Sargat), modern day Russians and so forth.

If I have to guess her ethnicity my guess is Russian.

[Hweinlant]

Presumably yes (maybe execept the aDNA), but this does not make changes in his character.

It's especially his autosomal DNA which would be superduper high in North Europeanity.

[Matuo]

YOu guys know that the indeginous Siberian population are Turkic and not Mongols :picard1: (Still the finns are not Mongols or Turkic)
The Turkic speaking people in Siberia live mostly in southern parts, such as Altai. The exception is made by Yakuts, who live more in the north. However, they too live in geographically limited region. Mongol-speakers live in south-eastern parts of Siberia, such as Baikal region.

Siberia is inhabited also by Tungusic speakers, Chukotko-Kamchatkan speakers, Uralic peakers etc. It is linguistically more varied region than Europe, which is single-handedly dominated by Indo-European languages.

[Matuo]

Geez.. She looks the way she does because the massive European dna influx in her genome. Just because she lives in Asia doesnt mean that her genome is Asian. There has been so many waves of Europids roaming in Siberia that pretty much all modern (west) Siberians have varying degrees of Euro-dna. I mean Aryans (Andronovo), Hungarians (Sargat), modern day Russians and so forth.

If I have to guess her ethnicity my guess is Russian.
No, she is indigenous "Siberian" :) I must add - "Western Siberian". And her native language isn't Russian. In fact, she works as redactor for a newspaper, which is printed in her native tongue.

And even if she has some Russian (or any other recent European) ancestry, which is not said at all, she is amazingly Northern European looking, don't you agree?

[blogen]

It's especially his autosomal DNA which would be superduper high in North Europeanity.

I found nothing for Mika's aDNA! What is the basis of your statement? And again, this does not make changes in his character. Only assumption that minimal aDNA is in harmony with the racial character.

[Hweinlant]

And even if she has some Russian (or any other recent European) ancestry, which is not said at all, she is amazingly Northern European looking, don't you agree?

I fail to see your point ? The fact that she looks somewhat European is because her dna largely is European. I allready pointed out that there has been several waves of europoids roaming in Siberia within last 6.000 years or so.

[inactive_member]

It's especially his autosomal DNA which would be superduper high in North Europeanity.

He may well 99% of 'Northern European' admixture. A tiny Siberian admix maybe enough to make him look they way he looks. The same can be said of southern Europeans. Tiny north-african or middle-eastern admixtures makes them look very swarthy in the eyes of northerners.

[Hweinlant]

I found nothing for Mika's aDNA! What is the basis of your statement? And again, this does not make changes in his character. Only assumption that minimal aDNA is in harmony with the racial character.

Finns tend to be very homogenous population (only little genetic variation within population). There is no way one Finn differs from other, in sense of having large extra amount of Asian dna. Difference between western and eastern Finns is measured in few percentages, not in tens of percentages. If Häkkinen would have recent foreign ancestry it would be known by everyone. He is after all double world champion of F1.

Here are my autosomal dna results:
http://i41.tinypic.com/25jxi55.png

Häkkinen therefore can not be anything else than overwhelmingly North European (like all Finns). If he has any Asian dna it will be measured in few percents (absolute maximum would be something like 5%), not in dozens. Also pay attention I have no South European (fugly WOG), nor MOOOOR in my system. Unfortunately our Spanish friends do not have this luxury of being pure European stock :p Perhaps some Basques may be mostly South European but then again, they are more like French in denial than true Iberians.

[blogen]

Finns tend to be very homogenous population (only little genetic variation within population). There is no way one Finn differs from other, in sense of having large extra amount of Asian dna. Difference between western and eastern Finns is measured in few percentages, not in tens of percentages. If Häkkinen would have recent foreign ancestry it would be known by everyone. He is after all double world champion of F1.

What foreing ancestry? Original Finnish ancestry.


Häkkinen therefore can not be anything else than overwhelmingly North European (like all Finns). If he has any Asian dna it will be measured in few percents (absolute maximum would be something like 5%), not in dozens.

Yes, probably not a dozen. Mika racially differs from the average Finnish. So probably they have a miminum level of East Eurasian aDNA. Than for the average Finnish, but the average Finnish are pure Caucasoid:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8750/8vsp.jpg

source: Elina Salmela equal contributor, Tuuli Lappalainen equal contributor, Ingegerd Fransson, Peter M. Andersen, Karin Dahlman-Wright, Andreas Fiebig, Pertti Sistonen, Marja-Liisa Savontaus, Stefan Schreiber, Juha Kere, Päivi Lahermo: Genome-Wide Analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms Uncovers Population Structure in Northern Europe - PLoS One, 2008 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519#pone.0003519.s002)

[inactive_member]

I don't have much knowledge on population genetics, but I think the name 'northern european' admixture is somewhat arbitary. The reference population for the 'northern European' could well be chosen that of Icelandic or Danish, which wouldn't have put Finnish and north Russian populations very northern European.

An example


The admin of MDLP project (http://magnusducatus.blogspot.com/2012/09/behind-curtains-mdlp-world-22-showcase.html) chose North-European-Mesolithic (local component with peaks in European Mesolithic samples of La_Brana and modern North-European Saami population).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i8yC498jy2g/UFSXH0Q8EMI/AAAAAAAADxQ/O8aDs3Kzyp8/s320/Mesolithic-European-1.png


Different reference population was used for North-East European admixture. Look what happened.

Finnish populations have around 60% of NE European admixture, while 22-25% of North-European-Mesolithic admixture which peaks in Saami population. However, many NE European populations lack any significant amount or have substantially lower Mesolothic admixture. Both admixtures are considered northern European imo.


http://cs319929.userapi.com/v319929387/35f0/CxqAvAa0Zc4.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

Also pay attention I have no South European (fugly WOG), nor MOOOOR in my system.

Dude, chill out. :chillpill:

[Gomorra]

I try to send PM to Hweinlant conserning homogeneity of Finns. It was impossible so...see you in heaven. I am done here(race and society) and i am ready. Or see you in Valhalla. Thanks.

[Mans not hot]

This guy are swarthy in Central Europe. Typical Arab immigrant.
There are Hungarians who are swarthier than him. :laugh:

[amerinese]

Creating this thread was an excellent strategy for summoning all former ABF Finns here.

Now if you can get Alfieb to come back, the circle will be complete.

[Mans not hot]

Creating this thread was an excellent strategy for summoning all former ABF Finns here.

Now if you can get Alfieb to come back, the circle will be complete.
I miss Alfieb. :(

[blogen]

There are Hungarians who are swarthier than him. :laugh:

Yes, we call them Gypsy! ;)

Alberto Garzon is an typical creol skinned Southern European, like the Gypsies in Hungary for example.

http://m.cdn.blog.hu/ra/rabakalman/image/20121012ciganyok.jpg
http://www.librosaguilar.com/uploads/imagenes/autor/principal/201109/principal-alberto-garzon-espinosa_grande.jpg

And in this pictures not Garzon to swarthier and not the Gypos to lighter. This is the Southern Caucasoid average from South and West Asia to Spain.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36885&d=1377751760

[Hweinlant]

I don't have much knowledge on population genetics, but I think the name 'northern european' admixture is somewhat arbitary. The reference population for the 'northern European' could well be chosen that of Icelandic or Danish, which wouldn't have put Finnish and north Russian populations very northern European.


What you are posting are charts which Vadim V. (hatts off) created using Admixture-software. It is actually a certain type of algorithm rather than software but anyway. It was the top notch tool 3 years ago but not any more. It has severe limitations in predicting the actual admixture proportions. In fact it doesn't even measure admixture per se; but likelihood of certain group of alleles belonging together, based on the amount of clusters the user of the software wants to create.

So if the author says I want to have 4 clusters, then all alleles have to go to 4 groups, depending how the algorithm predicts. It does not predict origin or source of those alleles, it just simply groups them. If author says create me 8 clusters (K=8), then all alleles have to go to 8 separate groups. Labels you see for those groups are decided by the user of software, it's just something the author sees fit for labeling. It's very crude tool, prone to large error. It totally lack the geneflow element from the prediction algorithm.

These modern tools, RFmix, Treemix, Rolloff etc. do not work that way, they predict the direction of geneflow (in controlled or non-controlled fashion). They also tend to be controlled (or supervised), meaning their predictions are far more reliable than unsupervised Admixture-runs (like Dienekes likes to do).

23andme uses modified version of these new, more precise tools, not admixture-software. If you check any recent admixture genome-wide study (post-2011), you'll see that the admixture-software is really only used to provide comparative data, it's not "THE TOOL" anymore, as it's limitations (and erratic behaviour) are well known.

What comes to 23andme North European samples, they are:


Northern Europeans are represented by people from as far west as Ireland, as far north as Norway, as far east as Finland, and as far south as France.


East European references are:


Eastern Europe, represented by people of Ukraine, Russia, Poland and Hungary, is bordered on the east by the Ural Mountains.

[Mans not hot]

Yes, we call them Gypsy! ;)
There are a lot of swarthy ethnic Hungarians, don't talk bullshit.

[Hweinlant]

I miss Alfieb. :(

He ventured into deepest Africa to find his sickle gene ancestors.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/ne0000/ne0000/ne0000/ne0000/8779497/sickle-cell-haplotype-map-resized.jpg

[riverman]

He may well 99% of 'Northern European' admixture. A tiny Siberian admix maybe enough to make him look they way he looks. The same can be said of southern Europeans. Tiny north-african or middle-eastern admixtures makes them look very swarthy in the eyes of northerners.

Somewhat related to this topic, the modern anthro theories went downhill when some people tried to distance themselves from the obvious med/'nord' continuum despite this being well evidenced in general....they preferred the outdated and frankly wrong concept of factoring hair/eye color and trying to seperate regional differences/similarities based on personal arbitrary 'beliefs', basically, it got away from actual anthropology and forced them to to distort the actual stats, this is why the c.i. allowances went way to far in determining populations, and we don't know which population samples are biased to support these theories...we can summarize for instance that with non-biased stats we have a lower c.i. in southern Germany in general, the 'nordoid' or whatever component, rather than the proposed tendency to a morphing to higher cephalic index....anyway, an example of geographical labeling effecting the stats when it shouldn't.

[inactive_member]

23andme uses modified version of these new, more precise tools, not admixture-software. If you check any recent admixture genome-wide study (post-2011), you'll see that the admixture-software is really only used to provide comparative data, it's not "THE TOOL" anymore, as it's limitations (and erratic behaviour) are well known.

Could you please cite any post-2011 genome-wide studies showing admixtures in the relevant populations?


What comes to 23andme North European samples, they are

Finnish sample is among northern European samples, therefore Finns will match their own reference population, thus being labelled as northern European on 23andMe. I don't have a problem with the name Northern European for Finns or Eastern European for others, even if I was personally labelled the far eastern European. I could not have thought of Finns being anything other than northern Europeans. I still suspect the admixtures in NW European and NE European populations vary in significant amounts. So, I would like to see the results obtained from latest genome-wide studies using modern tools.

[blogen]

There are a lot of swarthy ethnic Hungarians, don't talk bullshit.

Yes, the Gypsy origins. Lot of Gypsy assimilated in Hungary in the last two hundred years and their descendants are ethnic Hungarians now. For example the Hungarian prime minister Orbán Viktor has Gypsy ancestors! Their Indid caracter is visible:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1415/bawh.jpg

She is his daughter Ráhel:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4462/o5os.jpg

There are no (very few) swarthy peoples between the non Gypsy origin Hungarians, only non creol skinned dark/black haired, but this is Eastern (Mongoloid) heritage and not Southern. The not Gypsy origin swarthiness is beginning on Balkan with the Southern European peoples like Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.

[Cristiano viejo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv1fpCWlvOA

http://withfriendship.com/images/k/52261/Ninja-Sarasalo_0.jpg

The worst thing is that 25.000 of these Finngolians are living in a single village of Malaga, in Andalusia (South Spain) :picard1:
I guess that in whole Spain they are even more...

[Matuo]

There are actual Mongolians of Europe - Kalmyks.

http://www.mironov.ru/images/uploaded_images/folder559/2005-10-03_Elista_Kalmikskiy_Uni.jpg

[Peikko]

The worst thing is that 25.000 of these Finngolians are living in a single village of Malaga, in Andalusia (South Spain) :picard1:
I guess that in whole Spain they are even more...
Those Finns are the most European thing about your country.

BTW, when is your developing nation going to pay all the money back to my country?

Typical Spaniard:
http://www.opinionmalaga.com/especiales/eurovision-2011/files/2011/02/Eurovision2011LuciaPerezM15.jpg

[Sawolainen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv1fpCWlvOA

http://withfriendship.com/images/k/52261/Ninja-Sarasalo_0.jpg

The worst thing is that 25.000 of these Finngolians are living in a single village of Malaga, in Andalusia (South Spain) :picard1:
I guess that in whole Spain they are even more...

You are a sad troll with no credibility whatsoever. Ninja Sarasalo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_Sarasalo) the model who you (like with several previous photos of Sami) are trying to pass as a shining example of Asian ancestry in Finns, isn't even ethnically Finnish. However I understand where your inferiority complex stems from as it must be extremely agonizing to wake up every morning and be reminded by a reflection of a swarthy hairy face in the mirror, with full knowledge of the fact that you belong to a race of Iberian semi-European half breeds that have a significant amount (14.2% ) of Saharan-Arabian negro (http://www.ephotobay.com/image/picture-27-30.png)admixture.

Negro (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-snp-admixture-2013-05-14.pdf), do you enjoy rap music like your slightly more tanned relatives at southern latitudes?

[Loki]

Welcome to the forum! :) Sounds like you will fit in well here :laugh:

[Sawolainen]

Thanks, I will try my best!:)

[Mans not hot]

Thanks, I will try my best!:)
I got my eyes on you.

[Loki]

I got my eyes on you.

That's so gay.

[amerinese]

http://eugenecho.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/non-asian-eyes.jpg

[Mans not hot]

That's so gay.
Im just being suspicious.

[Cristiano viejo]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/373809_10150464667813116_1332694291_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/602335_3743470673425_119142065_n.jpg
http://www.olarinvoimistelijat.fi/@Bin/251521/sanna%20v.jpg
http://www.olarinvoimistelijat.fi/@Bin/251557/Anna%2520Hassinen.jpg
http://www.olarinvoimistelijat.fi/@Bin/251595/Jenni%20M%c3%a4ki.jpeg
http://www.olarinvoimistelijat.fi/@Bin/251517/anne%20niemenkari.jpg
http://www.olarinvoimistelijat.fi/@Bin/290591/ovo_esittelyyn_NiinaHuttunen.jpeg
http://www.olarinvoimistelijat.fi/@Bin/251677/tiina.jpeg
http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/14563_4695548758042_1110909705_n.jpg
http://www.laureanalumnit.fi/@Bin/241765/Asteljoki_ja_Seppinen_070411.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CxOs2v0Bcu0/TrGyTKAjfpI/AAAAAAAAAso/8RPZ_ZtTCbc/s1600/303949_2243425918648_1038114392_2049504_1914214391 _n.jpg
http://www.clamos.com/mallit/naiset-ammatti/nm8,%20600.jpg
http://www.clamos.com/mallit/naiset-ammatti/elisa_MG_5169,%20700.1.jpg
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9722/cba41a7bed9736852.jpg
http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2516/1325354_520_292.jpg
http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2516/1325377_520_292.jpg
http://yle.fi/vintti/yle.fi/ralliradio/system/files/images/P1010075TainaNyberg.preview.jpg

[SobieskisavedEurope]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/373809_10150464667813116_1332694291_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/602335_3743470673425_119142065_n.jpg


http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/images_eman/cro_magnon_3.jpg
http://www.donsmaps.com/clickphotos/headbrugar3.jpg

[blogen]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/373809_10150464667813116_1332694291_n.jpg

She is an Europo-Mongoloid. The others are Caucasoids.

[amerinese]

Man, there are some hot Finnish chicks in this thread. Keep 'em coming.

[Lábaru]

You are a sad troll with no credibility whatsoever. Ninja Sarasalo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_Sarasalo) the model who you (like with several previous photos of Sami) are trying to pass as a shining example of Asian ancestry in Finns, isn't even ethnically Finnish. However I understand where your inferiority complex stems from as it must be extremely agonizing to wake up every morning and be reminded by a reflection of a swarthy hairy face in the mirror, with full knowledge of the fact that you belong to a race of Iberian semi-European half breeds that have a significant amount (14.2% ) of Saharan-Arabian negro (http://www.ephotobay.com/image/picture-27-30.png)admixture.

Negro (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-snp-admixture-2013-05-14.pdf), do you enjoy rap music like your slightly more tanned relatives at southern latitudes?

http://wasahiro.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/mfwpeoplearebutt-hurtbecausebastianmadehisownchannel_de1a8ea305cc93 5d33f8aa5c94a3f718.jpg

[Aunt Hilda]

I think this thread has run it course... closed ;)

[Loki]

I think this thread has run it course... closed ;)

Reopened.

[Aunt Hilda]

Reopened.
why?