Middle to late Neolithic 6,625-4,025 year old mtDNA and Y DNA from German

[Fire Haired]

mtDNA N=86 vast majority central and eastern Germany border very few from north or west Germany 2 from central eastern Denmark from 6,625-4,025ybp[/I][/B]

H=35 40.7%(H1=9 10.5%(H1e7=3 3.5%, H1e1a5=1 1.7%), H3=4 4.7%(H3b=1 1.7%), H2=3 3.5%, H5=3 3.5%(H5a3=2 2.3%, H5b=1 1.7%), H16=1 1.7%, H8a=1 1.7%, H10=1 1.7%, H7d5=1 1.7%, H6a1a=1 1.7%, H4da1=1 1.7%, H13a1a2c=1 1.7%

U=11 12.8%(U5=8 9.3%(U5a=5 5.8%(U5a1=2 2.3%, U5a2a=1 1.2%), U5b=1 1.2%), U4=2 2.3%, U2e=1 1.2%

K=10 11.6%(K1=4 4.6%(K1b=2 2.3%, K1a2=1 1.2%)

T=9 10.5% (T2=6 7%(T2e=3 3.5%), T1a=1 1.2%

X=5 5.8% (X2=4 4.6%(X2j=1 1.2%),

HV=5 5.85(HVO=4 4.6%),

J=4 4.65%,,

I=2 2.3%(I1=1 1.2%)

W=3 3.5%(W6=1 1.2%, W5a=1 1.2%),

V=1 1.2%,

N1a1a=1 1.2%

four Y DNA samples all from 4,600ybp and from central Germany

R1a1a either R1a1a1b1 or R1a1a1b=2, R1b1a2 almost definitely R1b1a2a1a1 L11*/P310*=2

The R1b came from From Bell Beaker culture in central Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
in Kromsdorf central Germany

the R1a1a came from Corded Ware culture in Eulau central Germany

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=yUrAUYi8IsnayAHNrIAw&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=yUrAUYi8IsnayAHNrIAw&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw)

The mtDNA from the 86 remains is nearly identical to mtDNA of almost all modern Europeans
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

the biggest sign is mtDNA H is at 40% i have heard so many times people saying that mtDNA H is so rare in pre historic European remains well that is not true from 236 samples in Iberia from 7,000-4,000ybp over 40% mtDNA Hhttp://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

most cultures remains in Neolithic Europe had 40% H or more just people keep mentioning LBK early Neolithic culture in Germany from 7,500-7,000ybp from 56 mtDNA samples 24.4% had H but it was still the most popular mtDNA haplogroup and 56 remains is not enough to say mtDNA H was not 40% for those people

and the theory people have that randomly mtDNA H spread to every spot in Europe just 5,000 ybp is not accurate at all
http://www.designntrend.com/articles/3958/20130423/dna-ancient-europeans-disappeared-genetic-history.htm

the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are H1,H3,H6,H8,H2, and H11 all originated in Europe usually over 15,000 ybp they did not randomly come from the mid east because these sub clades are rare in the mid east they where already popular in Europe before farming 10,000ybp actualley a 15,000 year old bone in Spain had mtDNA H6 and H originated in eastern Europe so it is well over 15,000 years old subclades like H1 and H3 are centered in certain areas there is no way recent migrations did that 10,000 ybp mtDNA H1 and H3 would be 40% in northern Spain just like today

also the idea Bell Beaker spread mtDNA H is very weak too because Bell Beaker culture began in Spain they would have had mainly mtDNA H1 and H3 at about 30-40% but Greeks who have 40% mtDNA H have less than 5% mtDNA H1 and H3 the Bell Beaker never made it to Russia or Greece but mtDNA H is still 40% in those areas this means it was the dominant mtDNA haplogroup before Bell Beaker and remains of middle Neolithic German mtDNA from before Bell Beaker still had mainly mtDNA H

mtDNA H did not just randomly spread across Europe people make quick conclusions it was already 40% in Europe 10,000 years ago and since DNA studies of prehistoric bones is growing like crazy right now my idea will be proven correct. and there is a 28,000 year old bone in southern tip of Italy and mtDNA H originated in the middle east to it would take at least 7,000 years for cavemen from Iraq to migrate to the southern tip of Italy mainly because they are not intentionally going to Italy it would be a very long process it probably arrived in Europe 33,000-36,000ybp

the R1a and R1b Y DNA remains came at the time when Indo Europeans began migrating to Germany and western Europe this was when the R1a and R1b lineage started to become dominant in Europe this does not mean Europeans ancestors have only lived there for 5,000 years Y DNA and mtDNA are just lineages like a last name i have a Scottish last name but i am only 15% Scottish Y DNA does not tell your full ancestry but it is true that the R1b Indo Europeans brought red hair to western Europe so redheads have only lived in western Europe for 5,000 years originally they came from the Steppes
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml

here are links to my other Threads which show other ancient DNA results eventuality i will have a threads for all ancient DNA results

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83954-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-eye-color-and-Skin-color-of-ancient-Indo-Iranians-from-3-800-1-900ybp

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83933-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-in-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe-6-000-8-000-ybp

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-and-European

[Black Wolf]

Only very few pre-Neolithic H samples have been found in Europe. The one's from Iberia you mention are they from Portugal? H just not really show up in large numbers until the Neolithic. Most likely the majority of H subclades seen in Europe today originated in either the Near East or the Balkans and spread throughout Europe mostly with Neolithic farmers.

[Fire Haired]

Only very few pre-Neolithic H samples have been found in Europe. The one's from Iberia you mention are they from Portugal? H just not really show up in large numbers until the Neolithic. Most likely the majority of H subclades seen in Europe today originated in either the Near East or the Balkans and spread throughout Europe mostly with Neolithic farmers.

i dont think that is true because the mtDNA H subclades that dominate Europe are H1,H3,H6,H2,and H11 these are very unpopular in the mid east so how could they have come from Neolithic mid eastern farmers that is why i dont agree with that and mid easterns have 20% mtDNA H Europeans have 40% so i dont think Europeans got it from mid eastern farmers

and all those subclades i mentioned are all over 10,000 years old and for sure originated in Europe this means they where dominant before the Neolithic age which started 10,000-11,000ybp but did not spread to Europe till 8,000-9,000ybp

also people dont spread mtDNA they spread Y DNA teh Indo Europeans conquered India that is why R1a1a is over 30% in India today the R1b Indo Europeans conquered western Europe that is why it is 50% in western Europe today the Y DNA is on the male lineage men fight in wars they kill the otehr men and take teh native women as slaves and wifes never is mtDNA spread and if ulets say u are right that most european mtDNA comes from neolithic mid easterns then European people would be brown skinned and mid eastern because if anything the farmers would spread Y DNA unless they sold their women as prostitutes or something so if European mtDNA is mid eastern thene uropeans should be mid eastern'

the fact that the H subclades that Dominate Europe are almost never found the the mid east and are from before the Neolithic age proves there is no way mtDNA H became popular because of mid eastern farmers the argument seems weak to me and it is a quick conclusion


H just not really show up in large numbers until the Neolithic. Most likely the majority of H subclades seen in Europe today originated in either the Near East or the Balkans and spread throughout Europe mostly with Neolithic farmers.[/QUOTE]

i dont think that is true because the mtDNA H subclades that dominate Europe are H1,H3,H6,H2,and H11 these are very unpopular in the mid east so how could they have come from Neolithic mid eastern farmers that is why i dont agree with that and mid easterns have 20% mtDNA H Europeans have 40% so i dont think Europeans got it from mid eastern farmers

and all those subclades i mentioned are all over 10,000 years old and for sure originated in Europe this means they where dominant before the Neolithic age which started 10,000-11,000ybp but did not spread to Europe till 8,000-9,000ybp

also people dont spread mtDNA they spread Y DNA teh Indo Europeans conquered India that is why R1a1a is over 30% in India today the R1b Indo Europeans conquered western Europe that is why it is 50% in western Europe today the Y DNA is on the male lineage men fight in wars they kill the otehr men and take teh native women as slaves and wifes never is mtDNA spread and if ulets say u are right that most european mtDNA comes from neolithic mid easterns then European people would be brown skinned and mid eastern because if anything the farmers would spread Y DNA unless they sold their women as prostitutes or something so if European mtDNA is mid eastern then Europeans should be mid eastern'

the fact that the H subclades that Dominate Europe are almost never found the the mid east and are from before the Neolithic age proves there is no way mtDNA H became popular because of mid eastern farmers the argument seems weak to me and it is a quick conclusion

[QUOTET=he one's from Iberia you mention are they from Portugal?[/QUOTE]

there where two 15,000 year old mtDNA H samples from northern Spain one had eastern European H6

the 236 Neloithic samples from 7,000-4,000ybp with 43.5% H in Iberia came from both Spain and Portugal but mainly Spain

I do have to agree with u very few pre Neloithci European remains have mtDNA H but we also have very few pre Neolithic remains that show mtDNA and most come from central and northern Europe u can not ignore the 28,000 and 15,000 year old H samples and a few 18,000 year old remians in Spain may have had H all they know for sure is it had H's grandmother RO

there is no way H spread in neloithci times and i dont know where u got the idea of the balkens'

Finnish people have 40% mtDNA H Greeks have 40% mtDNA H Finnsih have spoken the Uralic Finnic language for about 8,000 years this means tehy have lived in the same area for at least 8,000 years the finnish where conquered by Siberian Uralic but they had already lived in Scandnavia for many years

The Neolithic did not hit Scandinavia including Finland till about 4,500-5,000ybp the farmers did not really migrate to Finland there is no way they could have replaced the old mtDNA with H because they had very little contact so even Scandinavians who can trace most of their ancestry to the first Scandinavians 10,000ybp they stayed as hunter gathers till just 4,500-5,000ybp and they also have 40% mtDNA H it is obvious it is not a Neolithic thing even central Finnish who really did not become farmers till just like 2,000-3,000ybp the Neolithic revolution never really hit central or northern Scandinavia but they still have 40% mtDNA H it is true one of the only non 40% mtDNA H people in Europe are the Sami in far northern Scandinavia they have 50% mtDNA U5b and 50% V also their specfic mtDNA V and U5b subclades are bot about 8,000 years old this means they have lived in that area for at least 8,000 years

[Black Wolf]

Nah most of them still came from the Near East during the Neolithic. Either there or the Balkans where they would have picked up farming technologies early on. Most H subclades grew and spread with farmers throughout Europe.

[Fire Haired]

Nah most of them still came from the Near East during the Neolithic. Either there or the Balkans where they would have picked up farming technologies early on. Most H subclades grew and spread with farmers throughout Europe.

i dont think u understand me the most popular suclades of mtDNA H in Europe are rarley every found in the mid east so there is no way they where introduced from the mid east

also Europe has more mtDNA H than the mid east at average mid east has 20-30% mtDNA H Europe has 40-50% The mid eastern farmers would have to make the european hunter gathers exitcint for most of modern european mtDNA to come from mid eastern farmers

If most european mtDNA lineages came from the mid east than europeans would not be white

mtDNA H1 and H3 take up about 30% of mtDNA in Spain, Portugal, Norway, and Swedan it averages over 7% in Europe
mtDNA H1 and H3 did not orignate in the mid east it orignated in north spain about 15,000ybp and is accoicated with the idea of teh iberian refuge it migrted after the last ice age throughout europe it also migrated with mtDNA V and some U5b many experts believe Europe was repopulated by these peophttp://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/1/19.fullle meaning that all Europeans come mainly from this group

all of the dominant subclades in Europe originated in Europe over 10,000ybp and very rare in teh mid east this means they are from before the Neolithic age and did not come from the mid east http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(mtDNA)

sure some mtDNA H in Europe probably did come in Neolithic times like H5 but i think saying mtDNA H in europe all came from mid eastern farmers is a quick conclusion and ur not looking at the details and the specfic subclades

and the fact that almost all of Europe exce some ethnic groups like Sami people have 40% mtDNA H it had to have been way before the Neolithic age from what we know there is almost no mid eastern blood in finland Finnish did not become farmers till at the earliest 4,000-5,000ybp mid eastern farmers probabley never migrated to Finland but they also have 40% mtDNA H in Scandinavia period they stayed as hunter gathers for a very long time sure mid easterns did come up there a little it but no way could most Scandinavian mtDNA come form teh mid east then why is their K7b austomnal DNA have less than 5% west asian if most of europes mtDNA came from the mid east europe would have alot more id east blood and darker skin sure many mid eastern afrmers migrated to Europe but they never where the dominant group in Europe because modern Europeans come mainly from the hunter gathers there is no way u can say white people migrated out of the mid east 6,000ybp then why are they white obvisouley white skin red hair blonde hair blue green eyes all came from the European hunter gathers not brown middle eastern people

[ariel]

they not come from the middle east, they come from the levant particularly


Population stratification caused by nonrandom mating between groups of the same species is often due to geographical distances leading to physical separation followed by genetic drift of allele frequencies in each group. In humans, population structures are also often driven by geographical barriers or distances; however, humans might also be structured by abstract factors such as culture, a consequence of their reasoning and self-awareness. Religion in particular, is one of the unusual conceptual factors that can drive human population structures. This study explores the Levant, a region flanked by the Middle East and Europe, where individual and population relationships are still strongly influenced by religion. We show that religious affiliation had a strong impact on the genomes of the Levantines. In particular, conversion of the region's populations to Islam appears to have introduced major rearrangements in populations' relations through admixture with culturally similar but geographically remote populations, leading to genetic similarities between remarkably distant populations like Jordanians, Moroccans, and Yemenis. Conversely, other populations, like Christians and Druze, became genetically isolated in the new cultural environment. We reconstructed the genetic structure of the Levantines and found that a pre-Islamic expansion Levant was more genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners.


In order to assess the population structure of Levantine populations more generally, an MDS (Figure 2) and a normalized principle component analysis (PCA) (Figure S2) plots with 48 additional Old World populations (Table S1) were built. Only 25 randomly selected samples from each Lebanese group were used in order to avoid population size biases (Figure S3). The plots reveal a Levantine structure not reported previously: Lebanese Christians and all Druze cluster together, and Lebanese Muslims are extended towards Syrians, Palestinians, and Jordanians, which are close to Saudis and Bedouins

ADMIXTURE identifies at K = 10 an ancestral component (light green) with a geographically restricted distribution representing ~50% of the individual component in Ethiopians, Yemenis, Saudis, and Bedouins, decreasing towards the Levant, with higher frequency (~25%) in Syrians, Jordanians, and Palestinians, compared with other Levantines (4%–20%). The geographical distribution pattern of this component (Figure 4A, 4B) correlates with the pattern of the Islamic expansion, but its presence in Lebanese Christians, Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews, Cypriots and Armenians might suggest that its spread to the Levant could also represent an earlier event. Besides this component, the most frequent ancestral component (shown in dark blue) in the Levantines (42–68%) is also present, at lower frequencies, in Europe and Central Asia (Figure 4A, 4C). We found that this Levantine component is closer to the European component (dark green) (FST = 0.035) than to the Arabian Peninsula/East Africa component (light green) (FST = 0.046). Our estimates show that the Levantine and the Arabian Peninsula/East African components diverged ~23,700-15,500 y.a., while the Levantine and European components diverged ~15,900-9,100 y.a. We note here that our divergence time estimates are based on the assumption that “effective population sizes” have not significantly changed overtime. We make this assumption, and obtain divergence times from genetic data which appear to coincide well with archeology
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

[Fire Haired]

there are only 86 samples from Germany 6,625-4,02ybp that is not enough u probably will find alot of european nations that come close to matching but that does not mean they are related all of Europe has almost the exact same mtDNA haplogroups but they do have different subclades

since these remains match the mtDNA haplogroups of modern Europeans i think that means that that modern mtDNA in Europe was all ready setup at least 7,000ybp i also counted 236 mtDNA samples from Spain from 7,000-4,000ybp most came from over 6,000ybp they also almost perfectly matched the haplogroups of these German remains and of modern Europeans

here is a link website i got the ancient DNA from
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

[Black Wolf]

Oh I understand you completely. I am more inclined to follow this scenario better though.

''This is an old debate, but I believe it is close to resolution. In the first wave of mtDNA and y-DNA testing, researchers found high percentages of mtDNA H and y-DNA R1b in Europe, so they concluded that these were the original Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. There was never any good science to support this theory, it was simply based on the belief that migration plays a small role in present day population distributions.

We now know that the opposite is true, that there have been multiple waves of significant population migrations that largely replaced earlier haplogroups. Both the age estimate of mtDNA H and the lack of H in Paleolithic & Mesolithic remains show that H was not in Europe before the LGM. I think it is still possible that some mtDNA H could have arrived in Europe before the Neolithic, there have been some reports of H in Mesolithic Italy. But if H was in Europe before the Neolithic, it seems to have been limited to southern Europe. More testing of ancient remains will give a more precise view of the migrations of H. But in my opinion, the explosive growth of mtDNA H in the early Neolithic indicates that most H subclades probably originated in Neolithic farmers and herders.''

[Fire Haired]

what DNA evidence do u have it is from the Levant the evidence people ghave that it came from the mid east has laready been proven wrong and to say is particulley came from the Levnant how do know what mtDNA early farmers in the Levnant 10,000ybp had modern Levnants might be a mix of those early farmers ind invaders from Iraq who came 6,000ybp and invaders from TUrkey who came 4,000ybp alost changes in 10,000 years until u know what mtDNA people in the levnante had 10,000ybp u cant say it came from there

there is some mtDNA found in Syria which is near the Levinante from 9,400-8,000ybp there where 16 samples

K=5 31.25%, T2b=3 18.75%, sub sahren African L2a1=2 12.5%, H=2 12.5%(H5=1 6.25%), east Asian C1=1 6.25%, some where undecided
a decendant of most non African mtDNA R=1 6.25%, H or K=2 12.5%

the mtDNA from early Neloithci Germany LBK culture 7,500-7,000ybp showed huge smilarties to this mtDNA mtDNA T2b and K where popular in both K1 is the main subclade of all neloithci European mtDNA but the ones from Syria where not well enough perserved to show the subclade these mtDNA T2b is estimtaed to be at most 10,000 years old it defintley was spread from the Levnant or some where in the mid east to Europe same with K1 mtDNA H5 which is popular in Europe and the mid east alos defintley came to Europe from the mid east in the Neloithic revolution but most mtDNA in Europe was already there over 10,000ybp and evolved from mtDNA that came to Europe over 33,000ybp this means that before the Neloithci revolution Europe was pretty much compltley isolated and it also means modern Europeans are mainly from Paleolithic Europeans who came well over 33,000ybp most of Europeans ancestors probabley came to Europe over 40,000ybp

i think it is obvious Europeans are a unique group and evolved their own DNA in Europe and are decended from people who came over 40,000ybp because the have white skin and blonde hair red hair bleu eyes green eyes they evolved their own unqiue features this is i proof they where isolated too and that europeans are not mainly decended from neloithci mid eastern because mid eastern people have brown skin and dark hair Europeans get white skin and light hair and eyes from mesloithci and paloithci european hunter gathers from way over 15,000ybp

i am going to make a new thread today that shows the genes for white skin in europeans and how long europe has been white one suprising think is mid eastern people have almost the same exact amounts of the so called white skin egens as europeans do and there are some mid eastern people who have natural white skin just like Europeans and it is not from inter marraige and if u dont count east asians and europeans mid eastern people are the paliest

and brown hair has less pigmentation than balck hair all humans have balck hair except europeans and mid easterns and by mtDNA Europeans and mid eastern are extremely related and by austomnal DNA Europeans and mid easterns are brothers

the website i found the out how Europeans and mid easterns are relted in austomnal DNA http://dodecad.blogspot.com/

here is a picture of the human family tree by Austomnal DNA west Asians aka mid easterns are brothers to north European aka European
34753

and more related than west Africans are to east Africans so what this means is the first Europeans would have already had teh genes for white skin and Europe probably became white over 20,000ybp and blonde hair and blue eyes are definaly began over 20,000 years ago red hair though is probably only 15,000 years old if u read my thread i can show u all my reasons and those people who said blue eyes is only 10,000 years old are way off and u cant get an accurate age by looking at genes in DNA

here are examples of naturally white skinned mid easterns
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34754&d=1371501279
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34755&d=1371501318
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34756&d=1371501335

i have always stertyped that mid easterns, north africans, and south asians are so differnt from white popel but then once i started to learn about DNA and gentics i realized they have like the same face as white people and when u but them in western cloths they look white

and i have meet mid easterns raised in america at first i thought they where white there was a Assyrian kid from iraq in my 5th grade class most of my school was Hispanic or black people would make fun of him and call him polar bear because his skin was so white i know that the majority of mid easterns have brown or light brown skin but it is not that rare to see white skinned ones or very light browned skin ones and i bet if a mid eastern grow up in america no one told them they where mid eastern and they acted american i bet people would think he was white his skin would be paler because the mid east is very sunny and they tan easiley

i have family members on my scottish side who have brown skin including my dad but i always though of them as white they grew up in america everyone even random strangers assumed they where white i think the main reason people see such a huge differnce between europeans and mid easterns is culture even if they had the same cultuthey would be seen as differnt people but the skin color differnce is exagrerated and the facial features of europeans, mid easterns, north africans, and south asians are exactlley the same

[Fire Haired]

Oh I understand you completely. I am more inclined to follow this scenario better though.

''This is an old debate, but I believe it is close to resolution. In the first wave of mtDNA and y-DNA testing, researchers found high percentages of mtDNA H and y-DNA R1b in Europe, so they concluded that these were the original Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. There was never any good science to support this theory, it was simply based on the belief that migration plays a small role in present day population distributions.

We now know that the opposite is true, that there have been multiple waves of significant population migrations that largely replaced earlier haplogroups. Both the age estimate of mtDNA H and the lack of H in Paleolithic & Mesolithic remains show that H was not in Europe before the LGM. I think it is still possible that some mtDNA H could have arrived in Europe before the Neolithic, there have been some reports of H in Mesolithic Italy. But if H was in Europe before the Neolithic, it seems to have been limited to southern Europe. More testing of ancient remains will give a more precise view of the migrations of H. But in my opinion, the explosive growth of mtDNA H in the early Neolithic indicates that most H subclades probably originated in Neolithic farmers and herders.''

i have already said this a 28,000 year old bone in south italy had mtDNA H and two 15,000 year old bones in northern Spain had mtDNA H one even had eastern European H6 also the main subclades of H in Europe are H1,H3,h2,H6, H8, and H11 all of these originated in Europe before the Neolithic revolution and are very rae in the mid east

and most Europeans do have 40% mTDNA H but spainish have very differnt subclades than Greeks what this means is this means is that it was not the same event or same migration that brougth mtDNA H to Greece as it was to Spain if mtDNA H grew in Europe during the Neolithic age u would see the same subclades at the same percentages across europe which u dont what all this means is it is impossible for mtDNA H to have grew in Europe during the Neolithic age or from the mid east

and since most of teh H subclades that Russians have are differnt from the subclades Spainish have all of these subclades are over 15,000years old what this means is that mtDNA H grew separate in Russians and Spanish and it grew over 15,000ybp and all mtDNA H in Europe grew before the Neolithic age

and we only have about 30 mtDNA samples from pre Neolithic Europe and most come from northern or central Europe this is not enough to say that most people in all of Europe had mtDNA U5 before the Neolithic age i think the more DNA they get from bones will show mtDNA H was already established in Europe over 10,000ybp

and since all Europeans have different subclades than each other like Ukrainens have mainly H6,H2,H8 and Spainish have mainly H1 and H3 and that these subclades are over 15,000 years old this defintley means they did not spread from the same migration what it means is mtDNA H grew speratley in Russia and spain it might just be luck that most Europeans have 40% H and it grew seperatley or that their common ancestor like 20,000-30,000ybp already had 40% mtDNA H then spread and formed their own subclades

also since Europeans and mid easterns have very different mtDNA H subclades and that mtDNA H migrated to Europe from the mid east about 33,000ybp by mtDNA H is very popular in both Europeans and mid easterns at about 20-30% in mid east and 40% in Europe this means the founding population that spread mtDNA H to Europe already had over 20% since mtDNA in Europe and the mid east is over 20% H and that mtDNA H has been popular in all Caucasians except Indians for over 20,000 years

[Fire Haired]

If u are a guest and want to respond or be a member of the website just register it is free it will take the website a few days to allow u too respond and make threads

[Black Wolf]

Okay well there is a chance that some H was present in mainly Southern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic but a good amount no doubt also came to Europe from the Near East or spread from the Balkans during the Neolithic. Probably the very best candidates when it come to mtDNA haplogroups carrying farming and the Neolithic lifestyle into Europe from wither the Near East or Balkans are J and T.

[Fire Haired]

there is no DNA evidence that mtDNA H was spread to Europe from the mid east just because Paloithci European remains have almost no mtDNA H it not good enough evidence'

all the major mtDNA H subclades in Europe are very very very rare in teh mid east they all orignated in Europe t least 15,000 ybp so that measn almost all mtDNA H in Europe was already there in teh Paloithci and Mesloithci age and did not come from teh mid east u cant create an argument for what i just said mtDnA H IN EUROPE DID NOT COME FROM THE MID EAST

mtDNA H in europe has been there for over 33,000 years they dont decend from mid eastern mtDNA H subclades my prooof is 28,000 year old bone in south tip of Italy had MtDNA H it rpobably arrived in Europe throughteh CAucus mountains over 33,000ybp mtDNA H6 which is in over 40% of people in Ukraine and parts of Russia was found in a 15,000 year old remains in northern Spain mtDNA H1 and H3 which take up over 40% of northern Spainish is less than 5% in the mid east it orignated in Spain over 15,000ybp a H1b sample was found in portugal from 9,500ybp that is before farming spread to Spain so what u are saying makes no sense there is no evidence it spread from the mid east or rapidly grew in Europe less than 10,000ybp

u cant just say mtDNA H look at the subclades if u combine mtDNA of all European populations about 60-75% decends from mtDNA that came to Europe 50,000-35,000ybp this means modern Europeans mtDNA haplogroups mainly decend from the earliest settlers of Europe aka Cro Magnon man also the K7b austomnal DNA group "Atalntic Baltic" it is called that because t is mainly in around the atlantic baltic seas in north europe but is is over 65-70% in all of Europe except Greece and Italy it is the only austomnal group that originated in Europe probably over 30,000ybp 7,000 year old Mesolithic hunter gather in Spain this guys people almost definaly decended from Cro Magnon man who had lived in Europe and had probably no mid eastern blood he had 90.7% Atlantic Baltic

modern Europeans are almost defintley close to 100% decended from people who came 35,000-50,000ybp and if they had mainly mtDNA that came from the mid east just 10,000-6,000ybp then tehy would be mid eastern mtDNA is never spread with new culture it is always Y DNA because men fight in wars and kill other men and take the native women as slaves and wives i cant imagnie them spreading mtDNA all they spread was Y DNA which was G2a and is 80% in 30 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Europe usulley mtDNA never changes on average europeans ahve about 6-10% west Asian globe13 austomnal DNA but only in areas farming spread and Y DNA G2a is centered in teh Caucus mountains which is where west asian aust DNA is most popular so that is probably teh only ancestry europeans have from those farmers the rest is Mesolithic and Paloithci

[Black Wolf]

^Can you not read what I wrote above? I said ''There is a chance that some H was present in mainly Southern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic.'' And also like I said I still think a good amount spread out from either the Balkans or Near East during the Neolithic. Until more ancient Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic H samples turn up I will think that way. BTW there is a good chance that the so called H1 Paglicci sample from Southern Italy you mention may be contaminated with modern DNA. From Dienekes blog quoting the Fu et a. paper ''The only outlier in the European context is Paglicci Str. 4b which is assigned to haplogroup H1. However:
Using this criterion, we excluded Paglicci Str. 4b from further analysis as the rate of C to T misincorporation at the 50 end was only 8.8%, thus making an ancient origin for the DNA in this sample uncertain [14].''


As for the Atlantic_Baltic component from the Dodecad K7b analysis here are Dienekes own words about that component. ''Atlantic_Baltic is a component that reaches its highest levels in the far edge of Europe, i.e., the Atlantic facade and the Baltic area. My analysis of ancient European hunter-gatherers from Iberia and Sweden has shown them to belong ~100% in this component, indicating that it incorporate (while not identical to) the legacy of pre-Neolithic Europe.''

[Fire Haired]

what evidence do u have it only exsisted in teh Balkens??? and southern Europe there is defintly no evidence for the Balkens thing and from what i have heard teh 28,000 year old bone in south italy was not H1 it was just H and that is is offically H and that is only a 8.8% chnace of contamination scientists are very picky and want everything to be exact and 100% for sure but this remains was almost defintley not conatinmted and really did have mtDNA H and i showed in this thread http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

most mesloithci mtDNA samples from portugal their 7,500-9,500ybp had mtDNA H 2 out of 3 mtDNA samples from north spain from 15,000ybp had H there was also a 7,500 year old sample from russia with H the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are H1,H3,H2,H6,H11 all orignated in Europe over 10,000ybp this means there is no way mid eastern farmers made them popular because these groups are very unpopular in the mid east so what u are saying about it spreading from teh mid east is IMPOSSIBLE they where already popular in Europe mtDNA H1 and H3 where spread from Spain 15,000-10,000ybp i explained that in the thread above u have not given me real DNA arguments just assumtions and trusting the less than 30 mtDNA samples we have from pre Neloithci Europe and most come from north europe

[Black Wolf]

^Blah blah blah.

[Fire Haired]

pllease give me a argument that is not just asuming it came from the mid east farmers give me real DNA evidene like this european h subclde is from the mid east and is very popullar without that ur argument is nothing all european H orignated in europe over 10,000ybp and un popular in mid east very very very rarelly do u see H subclades in europe from mid east the whole theory it came from neloithci mid east only evidence is teh very few preNeloithci mtdna samples that we have besides that they have none their whole argument is defeated by what have been saying about the subclades

trust me teh experts will change their opinon soon

[Artek]

what evidence do u have it only exsisted in teh Balkens??? and southern Europe there is defintly no evidence for the Balkens thing and from what i have heard teh 28,000 year old bone in south italy was not H1 it was just H and that is is offically H and that is only a 8.8% chnace of contamination scientists are very picky and want everything to be exact and 100% for sure but this remains was almost defintley not conatinmted and really did have mtDNA H and i showed in this thread http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

most mesloithci mtDNA samples from portugal their 7,500-9,500ybp had mtDNA H 2 out of 3 mtDNA samples from north spain from 15,000ybp had H there was also a 7,500 year old sample from russia with H the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are H1,H3,H2,H6,H11 all orignated in Europe over 10,000ybp this means there is no way mid eastern farmers made them popular because these groups are very unpopular in the mid east so what u are saying about it spreading from teh mid east is IMPOSSIBLE they where already popular in Europe mtDNA H1 and H3 where spread from Spain 15,000-10,000ybp i explained that in the thread above u have not given me real DNA arguments just assumtions and trusting the less than 30 mtDNA samples we have from pre Neloithci Europe and most come from north europe
H lineages were already present in Iberia, you are right. But they were introduced to the most of Europe with Bell Beakers and farmers. Truly old mtDNA lineage for the Europe are U ones, especially after the actual result base.
You can't change that, I know that it must hurt since you are H alone. Being a newcomer:cool:

[Fire Haired]

H lineages were already present in Iberia, you are right. But they were introduced to the most of Europe with Bell Beakers and farmers. Truly old mtDNA lineage for the Europe are U ones, especially after the actual result base.
You can't change that, I know that it must hurt since you are H alone. Being a newcomer:cool:

how can u say bell beaker spread mtDNA H when Bell BEaker only streched to central Germany and only 4,800ybp why do Finnish have 40% H why do Russians why do Greeks obvisouly it was not Bell BEaker and people never spread mtDNa tehys pread Y DNA mtDNA usulley stays teh same because Y DNA spread from coqnueres mtDNA does not so it would be very hard for bell beaker to spread mtDNA

teh native women of central Germany where not killed off that is teh only way for bell beaker mtDNA to become dominet if most of mtDNA in germany is from Bell Beaker so i think the Bell beaker thing is way to simple and had terrible evidence i want to hear arguments with evidence not just assumptions

like i said about the farmers the main mtDNa H subclades in Europe are H1,H2,H3,H6,H8,H11 these are EXTREMLY EXTREMLY rare in teh mid east and all oirignated in EUROPE OVER 10,000ybp that means they did not come from mid eastern farmers they where already in europe when will u finalley uinderstand that this means it is impossible for it to come from mid eastern farmers so that defeats your argument

ukrianeans have mainly mtDNA H6,H2, and H8 spainish have mainly H1 and H3 they have differnt H subclades that means it comes from a differnt event or origin if all European mtDNA H came from one people grooup in teh neloythci age 6,000-10,000ybp teh mtDNA H subclades in all of Europe would be the same which tehy are not once again i proved that it did not come from the Neolithic


and agian it is very rare in human history for native women insted of teh native men to be killed off from an invading army men fight in wars in all human societies okay dont listen to femist who make up lies the native men are killed off teh women and children are taken as slaves they survive so the mtDNA lineages survive and plus there are no signs that Bell BEaker spread by conquering only their culture spread so the bell beaker argument is terribly weak and teh whole argument i have heard so many times that mtDNA H spread in Europe from mid eastern farmers is really based on the few mtDNA sampkes from pre Neolithic Europe we have and assumptions NO HARD EVIDENCE

i am not ofended if the mtDNA haplogroup i have did not arrive in Europe till the Neolithic i don't care i am just going by facts and by the way they found a 15,000 year old mtDNA sample in Spain with my haplogroup so actulley it was already in europe at least 15,000ybp

u should look at this link http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans/page2 i mention teh Iberian refuge which spread mtDNA H1, H3, and V acroos europe and north west africa from north spain

i want to hear more of ur arguments about mtDNA H spreading in Neolithic and bell beaker but so far i have not seen any good evidence and i think i have already proved it wrong

[Fire Haired]

H lineages were already present in Iberia, you are right. But they were introduced to the most of Europe with Bell Beakers and farmers. Truly old mtDNA lineage for the Europe are U ones, especially after the actual result base.
You can't change that, I know that it must hurt since you are H alone. Being a newcomer:cool:

just because i have mtDNA H does not make me a newcomer because teh ancestry of mtDNA U people who u call teh old Europeans is the same as the H people they are both european austomnal DNA from 7,000 year old U5b hunter gather in Spain he had more european blood than almost any modern europeans teh sami in scandvia have less than 1% mtDNA H but are more european than almost anyone in europe

so if you are right about mtDNA H spreading from mid east in neloithci age that does not make europeans with mtDNA H new comers most of Europeans ancestry probably comes from people who came 40,000-50,000ybp and brought mtNDA U5 and other U lineages in globe13 austomnal DNA north European which represents all Europeans probably came from the U people not H who came 33,000-36,000ybp

[Chad Rohlfsen]

Just because H dominates now and has wider variety than found in the middle east means nothing. Same case with R1b. Why couldn't H come with R1b and dominate and change the same way?