Rome spread Middle Eastern and North African Y DNA not Italian and European

[Fire Haired]

We know for a fact that the Romans where Italian just like people in Italy today the Y DNA of people who live in the area of Rome today have

43% Indo European R1b S28, 19.5% mid eastern J1, 10% North African E1b1b, 8.5% Neolithic northern Anatolian G2a, 5% Mesolithic European I2a2, 3.5% mid eastern T, 3.5% Indo European and Mesolithic European R1a, 3% Nordic I1, 2% mid eastern J1, 2% Mesolithic European I2a1a,

since the most popular group for Romans was R1b S28 u would except them to have spread it across their empire but that is not what happened it seems the Romans did not spread any R1b S28 the only groups they did spread where mid eastern and north African J2, E1b1b, J1

also the map of Y DNA J2 in Europe perfectly matches the map of the roman empire all the areas with 5% or more J2 are withing the borders of the Roman empire to me this definetley mean Rome spread it throughout Europe and north Africa
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34765&d=1371522865
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34766&d=1371522870


here are maps of J1 and E1b1b u can see that the areas with more J1 also have more E1b1b this means they came in the same time defintley in Greco Roman times and the J1 and E1b1b almost all of Europe defintley came from the Roman empire except Greece and south east Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34763&d=1371522493
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34764&d=1371522501

The Romans did not spread any Indo European R1b S28 which 43% of Italiens in the area of Rome the real Romans who where central Italians the Centurions who where the super soldiers of the Roman empire they lived in military camps across the Roman empire where almost always Italian it was a law for most of Romes histiory that Centurions had to be of Italian ancestry there where some soldiers in other ranks like Auxilia they had some non Italians but even those ranks where mainly Italian it was not until near the end of the Roman empire that they allowed non Italian Centurions and allowed more in other ranks but most of these people where from Germanic tribes not the middle east or north Africa they also allowed many non Roman people to immigrate around the empire

The Romans where very patriotic at first they where just a village it took about 500 years for them to conquer Italy then another 150 years to conquer western Europe and the Mediterranean the Roman empire at first only allowed people from the city of Rome or around that area to be at high rank later when their empire became to big for just people from Rome they allowed all Italians Rome was very strict about this

when Hadrian became Emperor in 76ad this infuriated Romans because he was born in Spain even though his parents where born in Rome and had 100% Roman blood

here is a map of R1b S28 and the largest extent of Celtic people i highlighted the areas that Halleste Celts from central Europe migrated to
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34767&d=1371523261
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34768&d=1371523266


the R1b S28 in Britain,Germany, and Poland did not come form Rome either for one thing Poland was not apart of the Roman empire and most of Germany was not either the R1b S28 in those areas comes from Urnfield culture 3,200ybphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

this culture gave birth to Hallstatt Celtic culture about 2,900ybp and Italien Villnoaven culture about 2,900ybp Urnfield also spread from central Europe to Germany, Poland, and Britain

that is also the reason why Hallstatt Celts and Romans had R1b s28 because in central Europe about 3,200ybp the Urnfield people spoke the proto Italian and some Celtic langauges spoke Celtic

the Celtic and Italien languages go back to a common ancestor just 4,500ybp in central Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

the Italian speakers spread from central Europe into Italy about 3,100ybp and slowly conquered it and spread the Italian language but modern Italians and ancient Romans are mainly descended of the people who already lived in Italy even though they have mainly Y DNA R1b S28 like Celts does not make them close blood relatives Y DNA Is just a direct lineage like a last name it does not tell ur full ancestry the first Italian speakers would have been genetically identical to Celtic people but they quickley inter married with the nativ Italians and became genetically Italian
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml

that is also part of the reason why Celts and Romans knew each other so well the Romans first mentioned the Celts in writting about 2,400ybp but they had known the Celts for 3,000 years the Hallstatt Culture traded with Italian Villnoven culture 2,900ybp this also part of the reason why Roman weapons where so similar to Celtic weapons i big reason why Urnfield culture conquered Italy is because they where some of the earliest people to use Iron weapons that is also why the Hallstatt Celts where so successful

I know that ancient Italy and Greece 2,500 ybp where the only areas of Europe with true organized civilizations and they where very very very connected with civilizations in the mid east and North Africa that is why mid eastern and north African Y DNA in Europe is most popular in Italy and Greece

the first Civilizations in Italy began just 2,600ybp because they had contact with Greece before that Y DNA E1b1b,J1,J2 would have been at most would have been 1% then they became at least 33% they must have[B][I] inter married with mid eastern and North Africans like crazy now it seems that when Rome became an empire they spread mid eastern and North African Y DNA

So maybe Rome is not the only example maybe Civilization is Europe did not just spread as an idea from the mid east and north Africa people from those areas actually went to Europe and inter married and for early civilizations in Italy and Greece the rich high ranking people may have been direct descendants of mid eastern immigrants i don't know what the answer is but there is something about ancient Rome and Greece we don't know about or maybe there is a historical reason why the Romans spread only mid eastern and north African Y DNA i don't know about

Here are other Threads I made about ancient DNA
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83933-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-and-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe-6-000-8-000-ybp

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84012-Middle-to-late-Neolithic-6-625-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83954-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-eye-color-of-ancient-Indo-Iranians-from-3-800-1-900ybp
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84356-Here-are-all-Human-Races-according-to-Austomnal-DNA

[Fire Haired]

i am not done with this thread yet i am still editing i hot the publish button on accident it will be done in a little bit though

[Sikeliot]

The Romans barely settled en masse when they conquered, so what you are saying automatically is not historically supported.

[Fire Haired]

then why is Y DNA J2 in Europe perfectley matchesthe borders of teh Roman empire and the most popular area for J2 is Italy and Greece

and why J1,J2, and E1b1b so much more popular in Italy and Greec ummm. because of ancient Rome and Greece modern civilization began in the mid east when i say civilization i dont just mean a people group like native Americans, African Tribes, and Germanic tribes i mean a orinized country with laws and a official trained army unlike tribes who just gather up all the men when ever a fight comes up

The Minoens in Crete was the first area Civlization spread to In Europe and DNA from Minoens prove they where Europeans https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Fncomms%2Fjournal %2Fv4%2Fn5%2Ffull%2Fncomms2871.html&ei=qNS_UbWnD6q3yQGv44G4Bw&usg=AFQjCNHBjGZ5XRx3yuUJLz8KFzbxezUpVQ

then it spread to Greece then to Italy the Italien and Greek civlizatyions where very connected to ones in the mid east and north africa Italioens and greeks though of themselves as being apart of the civilized world they did not include themselves cultralley with other tribes in Europe like Celts,Iberians,Germans,Thracens, and many more who they constintley said where very uncivlized

so i think that is the reason why mid eastern and north african Y DNA is so much higher in Greece and Italy is a direct reult of their connect with mid eastern civlizations but for Romans they still wpuld have had mainly Y DNA R1b s28 then why did they not spread it what i am saying is very accurate the Romans only spread mid eastern and north African Y DNA which really does not make any sense that is why i am making this article obviously there is something about Rome and probably Greece we don't know about there has to be a reason for this and there has to be a reason why in just 500 years Y DNA J1,J2 and E1b1b in Italy went from 1% at most to over 30% at least this means when they became a civilization and connected with the mid east they inte rmarried like crazy it was mid eastern men that mainly inter married but u dont find Italian Y DNA in the mid east this could mean that some how people of mid eastern and north African decent where leaders in early civilizations in Greece even Itay i don't know it is very hard to figure out why

[Albion]

These maps correlate well with the spread of farming along the Med and Atlantic and up the Danube as well though...

[Philo]

Hadrian beceame emperor in like 118 AD or something, not 76 AD. The emperor at 76 AD I think was Vespasian.
BTW You mentioned J1 twice..:

3% Indo European R1b S28, 19.5% mid eastern J1, 10% North African E1b1b, 8.5% Neolithic northern Anatolian G2a, 5% Mesolithic European I2a2, 3.5% mid eastern T, 3.5% Indo European and Mesolithic European R1a, 3% Nordic I1, 2% mid eastern J1, 2% Mesolithic European I2a1a,

[Smaug]

R1b-S28 is Celto-Italic, but the J2 spread is much older dating back to the Neolithic times just like Albion said.

[Prince Carlo]

Balkanites are mostly J2b carriers, while in Italy almost all J2 is J2a. So this is fail.

[ABest]

Not really. The spread of E1b and J1/J2 in Europe occurred in Neolithic times.

Also, the Romans did not really impact the genetic make-up of the vast territories they conquered.

[Cleitus]

Balkanites are mostly J2b carriers, while in Italy almost all J2 is J2a. So this is fail.

No thats False :picard2:

[Cleitus]

:costumed-smiley-083

[Prince Carlo]

No thats False :picard2:

http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2b.png

:)

[Cleitus]

http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2b.png

:)

what do you want to show with that ? :D
This Map only shows Haplogroup J2b

[Prince Carlo]

Well at least in Italy J2a is much more common than J2b

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s1600/haplogroups_italy.png

[Cleitus]

Haplogroups are nothing other than Mutations of Paternal Line they are Irrelevant.

[Philo]

Well at least in Italy J2a is much more common than J2b

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s1600/haplogroups_italy.png

Where's J2a1b?:(
Oh wait, is this an old table?I see my mutation M92 is categorized as j2a2a here..?

[safinator]

what do you want to show with that ? :D
This Map only shows Haplogroup J2b

Albanians are mostly J2b2, J2a exists but it's not common.

[Fire Haired]

Then why is Y DNA J2 match teh map of the Roman empire and why is it centered in Italy and Greece obvisouly it is from Greco Roman times

there are about 30 Y DNA remains from Nelothci western europe about 80% had G2a none had any J1 or J2 the farmers that migrated to europe had Y DNA G2a not J

[Fire Haired]

haplogroups are very relavent the tell u your direct paternal ancestry is so it is very important it tells alot about history like if there is J1 Y DNA in Europe that means some how in history mid eastern people where in Europe looking at Y DNA helps tell who people groups are it is extremely important

[Cleitus]

Albanians are mostly J2b2, J2a exists but it's not common.

No they are not Albanians are mostly E-V13 then comes I2a,J2a,R1b.

[Cleitus]

Haplogroups are Irrelevant, they are only Mutations they doesnt have something in coming with Race (Ethnicity) or Cultur.

[safinator]

No they are not Albanians are mostly E-V13 then comes I2a,J2a,R1b.

I'm talking among J subclades, overall E-V13, R1b and J2b2 are our most common clades.

[Fire Haired]

the farmers in Europe spread Y DNa G2a that i s why 80% of 30 Y DNA samples from Neloithci western Europe had Y DNA G2a and no Y DNA J1 or J2 and why Y DNA J1 and J2 are centered in GReece and Italy and why J2 matches the Roman empire

this probably means it was spread in Greco Roman times same thing with Y DNA e1b1b this haplogroup was already in Europe in Neloithic times but most of it came in greco Roman times

people easilly get confused the farmers that went to Europe where probably from northern Antolia or Caucus mounts not Iraq they had no Y DNA J

[Artek]

the farmers in Europe spread Y DNa G2a that i s why 80% of 30 Y DNA samples from Neloithci western Europe had Y DNA G2a and no Y DNA J1 or J2 and why Y DNA J1 and J2 are centered in GReece and Italy and why J2 matches the Roman empire
We don't have aDNA from every neolithic culture in Europe, so calm down.

[Fire Haired]

We don't have aDNA from every neolithic culture in Europe, so calm down.

we have Y DNA from Neloithci Europe and almost all of them had G2a some also had I2a1a and one had E1b1b V13 but none had J1 or J2 this means those farmers dod not come from Iraq or Syria they probably came from Turkey or near the Caucus mountains

i do not know what u mean by aDNA but the reamisn we have and other types of evidence prove the farmers that went to Europe did not have J1 or J2 and since those haplogroups are centered in GReece and Italy it probably means it is from The GReco Roman age and since most of Europe in globe13 austomnal DNA has 4-9% west Asian and 1-4% southwest asian but italy and greece have 21-25% west asian and 14-18% southwest asian this means they have been inter marriaing with mid eastern people and almost defintley in Greco Roman times or else t would not be centered in Greece and Italy

and when u say aDNA if u mean automnal DNA they do have austomnal DNA from Neolithic Europe they even have one sample from Mesolithic Europe basically the hunter gather in spain from Mesolithic Europe was most related to north Europeans mainly Finnish and sami the 5,300 year old otzi the iceman who was a farmer in alps italy is most related to south Europeans mainly sardineans 5,000 year old farmers in swedan where also most related to south europeans but 5,000 year old hunter gather in swedan was most related to north Europeans

[Peyrol]

Romans romanized conquered population, hardly settled the conquered zones.

Here the roman colonies populated with romans and romanized etruscans and sikels (sicilian greeks):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_umhSvWEgx2c/TClAOLxqQfI/AAAAAAAAFbY/dj145Fo8p5E/s1600/colonie.jpg

[Roy]

Not really ... it wasn't them.

[101DT]

I 100% agree with Fire Haired about R1b-U152 (S28) being of an archaic Indo-European stock;


[B]Busby et al 2011;
(c) R1b-S28 (U152) in Europe
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png


Myres et al 2011
Specifically, S116*(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l).


This Indo-European stock being a significant part of the proto-Keltic Gauls and in complete part the proto-Italic Umbrians

A Link that is also found in a common Linguistic root between Celtic and Italic;

David Rankin - Celts and the Classical World (1986)
As in Celtic, so also in Italic, /p/—/k w/ becomes / kw/—/k w/ and /p/—/p/ according to dialect, as in ' quinque' and 'Pompeius'. The 'b' future, which is found in Latin and other Italic dialects, occurs also in Celtic: both Celtic and Italic retain the /samo/ suffix for the superlative degree of adjectives. These are some of the obvious points of resemblance. There are considerably more. In the range of correspondences, Latin seems to have points markedly in common with q-Celtic, whereas Oscan and Sabellian seem to be closer to p-Celtic. These and other factors could suggest an earlier geographical continuity between the ancestors of Italic and Celtic speakers.

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;


and common Archaeological link; Swiss Lake Dwellings - Urnfield cult. complex;

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.


R1b-U152 figures: from [I]Boattini 2013:

Lombardy = 36.2% [80 samples Brescia/Como]
Liguria + Piedmont = 28.3% [81 samples Savona/Genoa/Cuneo]
Tuscany = 37.4% [123 samples]


Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html
Myres et al 2011
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
Busby et al 2011
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

[Peyrol]

I 100% agree with Fire Haired about R1b-U152 (S28) being of an archaic Indo-European stock;


[B]Busby et al 2011;
(c) R1b-S28 (U152) in Europe
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png


Myres et al 2011
Specifically, S116*(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l).


This Indo-European stock being a significant part of the proto-Keltic Gauls and in complete part the proto-Italic Umbrians

A Link that is also found in a common Linguistic root between Celtic and Italic;

David Rankin - Celts and the Classical World (1986)
As in Celtic, so also in Italic, /p/—/k w/ becomes / kw/—/k w/ and /p/—/p/ according to dialect, as in ' quinque' and 'Pompeius'. The 'b' future, which is found in Latin and other Italic dialects, occurs also in Celtic: both Celtic and Italic retain the /samo/ suffix for the superlative degree of adjectives. These are some of the obvious points of resemblance. There are considerably more. In the range of correspondences, Latin seems to have points markedly in common with q-Celtic, whereas Oscan and Sabellian seem to be closer to p-Celtic. These and other factors could suggest an earlier geographical continuity between the ancestors of Italic and Celtic speakers.

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;


and common Archaeological link; Swiss Lake Dwellings - Urnfield cult. complex;

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.


Figures: from [I]Boattini 2013:

Lombardy = 36.2% [80 samples Brescia/Como]
Liguria + Piedmont = 28.3% [81 samples Savona/Genoa/Cuneo]
Tuscany = 37.4% [123 samples]


Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html
Myres et al 2011
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
Busby et al 2011
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

This seems connected with Camunes and Villanovian civilizations.

[101DT]

This seems connected with Camunes and Villanovian civilizations.

The Indo-European [Umbrian] emergence begins with Terremare; [1500 BC - 1100 BC]
Includes the inter mixture with pre-Indo-Eropean Ligurians Alpinoids;

[B]Paul MacKendrick - The Mute Stones Speak (1962)
The terremare are important: they preserve the memory of an immigrant population, distinct in culture from the aborigines. The distinguishing marks of this new culture are knowledge of metal-working, a pottery identifiable by its exaggerated half-moon handles, and the practice of cremation rather than inhumation. On the evidence, we must suppose that this new culture emerged about 1500 B.C. as a fusion of indigenous hut-dwellers and immigrant lakedwellers. Bronze (Horse) bits found in their settlements show that they had domesticated the horse, and there is some evidence, outside the terremare, for dogs as well, described by Randall-Maclver as "doubtless good woolly animals of a fair size."

Terremare -

Weaponry and Tools - Poviglio [Emilia-Romagna]
http://www.upload-pictures.de/bild.php/29224,tm123YNG.png

Pottery
http://test.classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/118/flashcards/134118/png/54.png

[highnoblebenlutfi]

We know for a fact that the Romans where Italian just like people in Italy today the Y DNA of people who live in the area of Rome today have

43% Indo European R1b S28, 19.5% mid eastern J1, 10% North African E1b1b, 8.5% Neolithic northern Anatolian G2a, 5% Mesolithic European I2a2, 3.5% mid eastern T, 3.5% Indo European and Mesolithic European R1a, 3% Nordic I1, 2% mid eastern J1, 2% Mesolithic European I2a1a,

since the most popular group for Romans was R1b S28 u would except them to have spread it across their empire but that is not what happened it seems the Romans did not spread any R1b S28 the only groups they did spread where mid eastern and north African J2, E1b1b, J1

also the map of Y DNA J2 in Europe perfectly matches the map of the roman empire all the areas with 5% or more J2 are withing the borders of the Roman empire to me this definetley mean Rome spread it throughout Europe and north Africa
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34765&d=1371522865
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34766&d=1371522870


here are maps of J1 and E1b1b u can see that the areas with more J1 also have more E1b1b this means they came in the same time defintley in Greco Roman times and the J1 and E1b1b almost all of Europe defintley came from the Roman empire except Greece and south east Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34763&d=1371522493
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34764&d=1371522501

The Romans did not spread any Indo European R1b S28 which 43% of Italiens in the area of Rome the real Romans who where central Italians the Centurions who where the super soldiers of the Roman empire they lived in military camps across the Roman empire where almost always Italian it was a law for most of Romes histiory that Centurions had to be of Italian ancestry there where some soldiers in other ranks like Auxilia they had some non Italians but even those ranks where mainly Italian it was not until near the end of the Roman empire that they allowed non Italian Centurions and allowed more in other ranks but most of these people where from Germanic tribes not the middle east or north Africa they also allowed many non Roman people to immigrate around the empire

The Romans where very patriotic at first they where just a village it took about 500 years for them to conquer Italy then another 150 years to conquer western Europe and the Mediterranean the Roman empire at first only allowed people from the city of Rome or around that area to be at high rank later when their empire became to big for just people from Rome they allowed all Italians Rome was very strict about this

when Hadrian became Emperor in 76ad this infuriated Romans because he was born in Spain even though his parents where born in Rome and had 100% Roman blood

here is a map of R1b S28 and the largest extent of Celtic people i highlighted the areas that Halleste Celts from central Europe migrated to
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34767&d=1371523261
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34768&d=1371523266


the R1b S28 in Britain,Germany, and Poland did not come form Rome either for one thing Poland was not apart of the Roman empire and most of Germany was not either the R1b S28 in those areas comes from Urnfield culture 3,200ybphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

this culture gave birth to Hallstatt Celtic culture about 2,900ybp and Italien Villnoaven culture about 2,900ybp Urnfield also spread from central Europe to Germany, Poland, and Britain

that is also the reason why Hallstatt Celts and Romans had R1b s28 because in central Europe about 3,200ybp the Urnfield people spoke the proto Italian and some Celtic langauges spoke Celtic

the Celtic and Italien languages go back to a common ancestor just 4,500ybp in central Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

the Italian speakers spread from central Europe into Italy about 3,100ybp and slowly conquered it and spread the Italian language but modern Italians and ancient Romans are mainly descended of the people who already lived in Italy even though they have mainly Y DNA R1b S28 like Celts does not make them close blood relatives Y DNA Is just a direct lineage like a last name it does not tell ur full ancestry the first Italian speakers would have been genetically identical to Celtic people but they quickley inter married with the nativ Italians and became genetically Italian
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml

that is also part of the reason why Celts and Romans knew each other so well the Romans first mentioned the Celts in writting about 2,400ybp but they had known the Celts for 3,000 years the Hallstatt Culture traded with Italian Villnoven culture 2,900ybp this also part of the reason why Roman weapons where so similar to Celtic weapons i big reason why Urnfield culture conquered Italy is because they where some of the earliest people to use Iron weapons that is also why the Hallstatt Celts where so successful

I know that ancient Italy and Greece 2,500 ybp where the only areas of Europe with true organized civilizations and they where very very very connected with civilizations in the mid east and North Africa that is why mid eastern and north African Y DNA in Europe is most popular in Italy and Greece

the first Civilizations in Italy began just 2,600ybp because they had contact with Greece before that Y DNA E1b1b,J1,J2 would have been at most would have been 1% then they became at least 33% they must have[B][I] inter married with mid eastern and North Africans like crazy now it seems that when Rome became an empire they spread mid eastern and North African Y DNA

So maybe Rome is not the only example maybe Civilization is Europe did not just spread as an idea from the mid east and north Africa people from those areas actually went to Europe and inter married and for early civilizations in Italy and Greece the rich high ranking people may have been direct descendants of mid eastern immigrants i don't know what the answer is but there is something about ancient Rome and Greece we don't know about or maybe there is a historical reason why the Romans spread only mid eastern and north African Y DNA i don't know about

Here are other Threads I made about ancient DNA
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83933-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-and-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe-6-000-8-000-ybp

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84012-Middle-to-late-Neolithic-6-625-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83954-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-eye-color-of-ancient-Indo-Iranians-from-3-800-1-900ybp
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84356-Here-are-all-Human-Races-according-to-Austomnal-DNA


then why is Y DNA J2 in Europe perfectley matchesthe borders of teh Roman empire and the most popular area for J2 is Italy and Greece

and why J1,J2, and E1b1b so much more popular in Italy and Greec ummm. because of ancient Rome and Greece modern civilization began in the mid east when i say civilization i dont just mean a people group like native Americans, African Tribes, and Germanic tribes i mean a orinized country with laws and a official trained army unlike tribes who just gather up all the men when ever a fight comes up

The Minoens in Crete was the first area Civlization spread to In Europe and DNA from Minoens prove they where Europeans https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Fncomms%2Fjournal %2Fv4%2Fn5%2Ffull%2Fncomms2871.html&ei=qNS_UbWnD6q3yQGv44G4Bw&usg=AFQjCNHBjGZ5XRx3yuUJLz8KFzbxezUpVQ

then it spread to Greece then to Italy the Italien and Greek civlizatyions where very connected to ones in the mid east and north africa Italioens and greeks though of themselves as being apart of the civilized world they did not include themselves cultralley with other tribes in Europe like Celts,Iberians,Germans,Thracens, and many more who they constintley said where very uncivlized

so i think that is the reason why mid eastern and north african Y DNA is so much higher in Greece and Italy is a direct reult of their connect with mid eastern civlizations but for Romans they still wpuld have had mainly Y DNA R1b s28 then why did they not spread it what i am saying is very accurate the Romans only spread mid eastern and north African Y DNA which really does not make any sense that is why i am making this article obviously there is something about Rome and probably Greece we don't know about there has to be a reason for this and there has to be a reason why in just 500 years Y DNA J1,J2 and E1b1b in Italy went from 1% at most to over 30% at least this means when they became a civilization and connected with the mid east they inte rmarried like crazy it was mid eastern men that mainly inter married but u dont find Italian Y DNA in the mid east this could mean that some how people of mid eastern and north African decent where leaders in early civilizations in Greece even Itay i don't know it is very hard to figure out why

[highnoblebenlutfi]

Fire hair i have the answer for you...it was because if their diet ...their diet was high in protein and they had a 2000 year jump start

[Libertas]

Hadrian beceame emperor in like 118 AD or something, not 76 AD. The emperor at 76 AD I think was Vespasian.
BTW You mentioned J1 twice..:

What's his source for centurions being Italian under the Empire? No sources.:picard2:

What about all the Balkan, Syrian and other provincial Roman Emperors.

Where's the proof they were of Italian extraction? No proof.:picard1:

[highnoblebenlutfi]

Not irrelevant do you realize how many questions have been answerd

[highnoblebenlutfi]

Not irrevelent do you realize how nany questions have been answerd

[Fire Haired]

Fire hair i have the answer for you...it was because if their diet ...their diet was high in protein and they had a 2000 year jump start

what doses their diet have to do with it. If u are european good chance u have a drect paternal ancestor from the mid east who came to Europe in Greco Roman age.

[Fire Haired]

These maps correlate well with the spread of farming along the Med and Atlantic and up the Danube as well though...

i dis agree because Italuy and Greece have extremy high amounts of west asian and southwest asian in aust DNA(which tells full ancestry). The more south u go into Italy the more mid eastern aust DNA which means it came from the meditreaen not from the north which is how farmers spread. also the fact they are centered in Italy and Grece is more evidence. Also 31 Y DNa samples from neloithic Europe not one had J.

[Tropico]

However I got my E-V13 paternal halo group I think most people would prefer to say it wasnt from Rome.

[Fire Haired]

R1b-S28 is Celto-Italic, but the J2 spread is much older dating back to the Neolithic times just like Albion said.

true but J2 came in greco roman age. also Y DNA is a direct paternal lineage Europeans and proto Indo European speakers where mainly decended of Cro magnon. We have DNA from some of the earliest Indo Europeans in yamna culture from 6,000ybp so what i am saying is true.

[Fire Haired]

Not really. The spread of E1b and J1/J2 in Europe occurred in Neolithic times.

Also, the Romans did not really impact the genetic make-up of the vast territories they conquered.

u have no evidence from 31 y dna samples from neloithci western europe not one had J. plus it gets more popular the more south u go if italy got it from farmers it world have travled through the alps but it is more popular in italy. also in aust dna which tells full ancestry italy and greeec have way way way way more mid eastern than the rest of europe and it becomes more popular the more south u go it is not neloithic. but alot of e1b in europe may be since a 7,000 year old farmer in spain had e1b v13.

[Fire Haired]

However I got my E-V13 paternal halo group I think most people would prefer to say it wasnt from Rome.

hey it probably was not from Rome but it may be from a person who was connected to the greco roman world. There was a 7,000 year old E1b V13 found in a Spanish farmer and that is what u have so i would guess Neolithic.

[Tropico]

hey it probably was not from Rome but it may be from a person who was connected to the greco roman world. There was a 7,000 year old E1b V13 found in a Spanish farmer and that is what u have so i would guess Neolithic.

So far only one person in Spain was found to have E-V13 from Neolithic times. Statistically its more rational to suggest a Greco-Roman entrance but a truly Iberian one, due to those findings isn't 100% dismissible.

[Fire Haired]

well we have only 4 y dna samples from Iberia that are over 2,000 years old. All of them where 7,000 years old the fact one had E1b1b V13 means there is a good chance it is Neolithic.

[Tropico]

well we have only 4 y dna samples from Iberia that are over 2,000 years old. All of them where 7,000 years old the fact one had E1b1b V13 means there is a good chance it is Neolithic.

Yes but its only one. It just proves that there was at least one person of Neolithic E-V13 heritage. Statistically in only introduces the possibility of a great presence of E-V13 in Spain but it doesnt prove it. Statistically an Greco-Roman presence in Italy and E-V13's arrival is so far most likely of Greco-Roman origin through trade and colonization of certain parts of Spain.

[Fire Haired]

Yes but its only one. It just proves that there was at least one person of Neolithic E-V13 heritage. Statistically in only introduces the possibility of a great presence of E-V13 in Spain but it doesnt prove it. Statistically an Greco-Roman presence in Italy and E-V13's arrival is so far most likely of Greco-Roman origin through trade and colonization of certain parts of Spain.

i agree with that, but i from what i have read E1b V13 is most popular in Europe and originated in the middle east. It is bascially distributed the same way as J1 and J2. Right now i am half half on if ur E1b V13 is Neolithic or Greco Roman.

[Prince Carlo]

The most common Y-dna haplogroup in Italy is the R1b U152. Funny but that haplo does not correlate at all with the Roman Empire.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

[Fire Haired]

i know it correlates with Italic Villnovean and Celtic Hallstatt culture which both stemmed from Urnfiled culture 3,200ybp in the alps. I really dont understand why ROme did not spread it.

[CrystalMaiden]

Makes sense when you count in the slave trade.

[Brutus]

43% Indo European R1b S28, 19.5% mid eastern J1, 10% North African E1b1b, 8.5% Neolithic northern Anatolian G2a, 5% Mesolithic European I2a2, 3.5% mid eastern T, 3.5% Indo European and Mesolithic European R1a, 3% Nordic I1, 2% mid eastern J1, 2% Mesolithic European I2a1a..
Where are the sources for the Y-DNA of Rome's current people???? The area of Latium, homeland of the Latins, show:

29% R1b
18.5% J2
16.5% E1b1b
11% G
8.5% I1
4.5% T
2% J*+J1
2% Q
2% R1a
1.5% I2b1
1.5% I2*+I2b2
1% I2a

There is certainly some Germanic subclades of R1b, even R1a might have been of Germanic Gothic origin. Clearly, the presence of I1 also documents there was a large Germanic influence after the fall of Rome. The citizens of Rome circa 753 BCE must have been largely of ancient Neolithic stock. Probably 80-70% were of Neolithic lineages. Who knows, we need massive DNA sequencing before we can make the scenario. U152 might have been a Gallic lineage actually. Perhaps the Troy myth after all did have some truth. The Italics would have been much fewer than the already currently residing herders/farmers in the future-Rome area close to the Tiber River. So the IE-YDNA would have been somewhere around 15-30% not dominant.

Several excavations support the view that Rome grew from pastoral settlements on the Palatine Hill built above the area of the future Roman Forum.

In any case, the location that became the city of Rome was inhabited by Latin settlers from various regions, farmers and pastoralists, as evidenced by differences in pottery and burial techniques.

There is archaeological evidence of human occupation of the Rome area from at least 5,000 years, but the dense layer of much younger debris obscures Palaeolithic and Neolithic sites.

[Bosniensis]

Where are the sources for the Y-DNA of Rome's current people???? The area of Latium, homeland of the Latins, show:

29% R1b
18.5% J2
16.5% E1b1b
11% G
8.5% I1
4.5% T
2% J*+J1
2% Q
2% R1a
1.5% I2b1
1.5% I2*+I2b2
1% I2a

There is certainly some Germanic subclades of R1b, even R1a might have been of Germanic Gothic origin. Clearly, the presence of I1 also documents there was a large Germanic influence after the fall of Rome. The citizens of Rome must have been largely of ancient Neolithic stock. Probably 80-70% were of Neolithic lineages. Who knows, we need massive
DNA sequencing before we can make the scenario. U152 might have been a Gallic lineage actually. Perhaps the Troy myth after all did have some truth. The Italics would have been much fewer than the already currently residing herders/farmers in the Palatinate Hills. So the IE-YDNA would have been somewhere around 15-30% not dominant.

Welcome to 2018, 2013 passed.

[Brutus]

Welcome to 2018, 2013 passed.

Truth knows no time, bud.