Iberian DNA haplogroups from 20,000-4,340 years ago exactly like modern Europeans

[Fire Haired]

mtDNA 236 samples Iberia from 7,000-4,340 years ago the vast majority of the mtDNA where not well enough perserved to show the subclade like H1 they just had the basic haplogroup H.

H=98 41.52% (H20=4 1.7%,H1a1a=2 0.85%, H14a=1 0.4%)

U=43 18.2%(U5=8 3.4%(U5a=2 0.8%(U5a1=1 0.4%), U5b2=1 0.4%), U4=2 0.8%)

K=34 14.4%(K1a=3 1.27%)

J=18 7.6%

N=6 1.7%

T2=5 2%(T2b=2 0.8%)

X=3 1.27%(X1=1 0.4%, X2b=1 0.4%)

V=2 0.8%

L2=2 0.8%

I=2 0.8%

W1=1 0.8%

D=1 0.8%

Some of the mtDNA was undecided

T/X=11 4.6%
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

pre Neolithic Iberian mtDNA 15 samples from 20,000-7,500ybp

H=7 46.6%(H1b=2 13.3%, H6=1 6.6%)

U=4 26.6%(U5=2 13.3%(U5b1c2=1 6.6%), U4=1 6.6%)

N=2 13.3%(N5=1 6.6%, N1b=1 6.6%)

R0/HV/H=1 6.6%
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml
R or and decendant of R=1 6.6%
mtDNA R is the mother of most non African mtDNA haplogroups but this one was almost definlley in the Caucasian family so it was either RO/HV/H U/K pre JT/JT/T/J

Y DNA from Neloithic Catolnia Spain 7,000ybp 6 samples

G2a=5, E1b1b V13=1

the mtDNA haplogroups from 236 samples of Iberians from 7,000-4,340ybp is almost completly identical to modern Iberians and most modern Europeans in my other thread i showed 86 mtDNA samples from Germany they are 6,625-4,025ybp they also almost completely match modern Europeans mtDNA http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84012-Middle-to-late-Neolithic-6-625-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German

Surprisingly mtDNA H was also over 40% for pre Neolithic Iberian mtDNA like most modern Europeans but almost all mtDNA from pre Neolithic Europe is U the oldest sample of mtDNA H in Europe is on the south tip of Italy and it is 28,000 years old mtDNA H probably migrated to Europe from its place of origin which is the mid east about 33,000-36,000ybp it would have migrated to Europe right after the time it was born about 36,000-40,000ybp

there is a 20,000-18,000 year old mtDNA sample from solutrian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean
Nerja Spain which is at the southern tip of Spain all they could tell is it was in the[I] RO family mtDNA RO is very old it is about 45,000-50,000 years old today it is almost only found around Arabia and it probaley never migrated to Europe mtDNA RO is the mother of HV and the grandmother of H

mtDNA HV is also very old about 40,000-45,000ybp today it is almost only found around Iraq mtDNA HV did migrate to Europe because it has a daughter mtDNA V which originated in Europe 15,000ybp so this sample had either mtDNA HV or H

there where three mtDNA samples in Cantabrina Magdolnion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalenian
northern Spain from 15,000ybp two had H one of them had mtDNA H6 which today is mainly in eastern Europe this may mean it migrated there from Spain or that it migrated to Spain and is over 15,000 years old one of the samples had mtDNA U5 which is the oldest mtDNA haplogroup to orignate in Europe it is 50,000-55,000 years old

mtDNA H1,H3 and V all are about 15,000 years old, originated in northern Spain, and have similar distribution http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

these mtDNA haplogroups then migrated acroos Europe and north west Africa many experts believe these people are a major ancestral source for all modern Europeans so that makes Spain very important for Europeans ancestry this people group lived during the last ice age alot of Europe was uninhabitable they where taking refuge in Spain experts call it the Iberian refuge http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/1/19.full

12,000 year old mtDNA 21 samples from Mooroco which is in north west Africa

H/V/U=12, H=4, H/V=3, V=2
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/nafricaadna.shtml

the source said HV/H/V/U i changed it because there is no way it could have had HV also one of the samples said R mtDNA R is over 60,000 years old today its subclades only exsist in India and parts of east Asia and Australia but since North Africans are Caucasians there is no way they had R and since mtDNA RO is 50,000 years old and never migrated to North Africa or Europe i knew that was not it so the only possible results are H and V

mtDNA V originated 15,000ybp in the northern Spain so this means those Iberian refuge people did not just migrate across Europe four of the samples had mtDNA H but 14 more could have had H since so many where undecided but H was a possibility in all of them

modern north west Africans have 15-35% mtDNA H1 and H3 the Turags in Libya have 61% mtDNA H1
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378) the rest of North Africa and mid east is less 5% uselly less than 1% in the rest of Europe they average about 10-20% it is highest inn northern Spain at 40% and central and southern Scandnavia at 25-35%

also north west Africans have about 5% mtDNA V this haplogroups is almost never found in the mid east and other parts of North Africa it is about 3-5% in Europe and highest in northern Spain at 15-25% and in far northern Scandinavian Sami people at 50%. since 12,000ybp mtDNA in Morocco had V and alot of H these people where probably Spanish immigrants and represent Iberians mtDNA 12,000ybp and they had mainly mtDNA H same with pre Neolithic Iberian remains so Iberian over 12,000ybp probabley had 40-60% mtDNA H

North west Africans also have 1-5% mtDNA U5b which also originated in Europe and is the most popular group for pre Neloithci Europeans the subclade of North African U5b is most relted to Sami in northern Scandnavia the common ancester of north African and Sami U5b is estimated at 9,600ybp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics_of_the_Sami this U5b subclade takes up about 50% of Sami mtDNA this means Sami people and north Africans got their U5b from the Iberian refuge the other 50% of Sami mtDNA is V which also came from the Iberian refuge

so mtDNA haplogroups from this group that spread out of northern Spain 15,000ybp is found all over Europe and north west Africa which means they made migrations in those areas

the oldest human genome was found in northern Spain it is a 7,000 year old hunter gather named La Brana it is unrelated to modern Iberian's and southern Europeans he is most related to northern Europeans mainly Sami and Finnish people
http://fennoscandia.blogspot.com/2013/05/la-brana-individuals-and-1000g-european.html

there are genomes of two farmers in Europe one is the famous Otzi the ice man he is 5,300ybp and from alps Italy another is 5,000 years old farmer from south Sweden they where most related to modern southern Europeans mainly Sardinia people they also have Genomes of three hunter gathers in south Sweden from 5,000ybp and La Brana in north Spain 7,000ybp they where all most relted to northern Europeans mainly Sami and finnish people just like

here is the K7b austomnal DNA of them
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34771&d=1371541496

and this is a link to a website that explians ther austomnal DNA in more depth http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/bronze-age-indo-european-invasion-of.html

Sami people have specific mtDNA u5b subclade and V subclade these groups take up 100% of their mtDNA both groups are estimated as 8,000 years old this means Sami people have lived in north Scandinavia for at least 8,000 years and since 100% of their mtDNA comes from that people group that migrated out of Spain 15,000ybp and that they are the closest modern relatives to Genomes of European hunter gathers this could mean Sami people are the closest modern relatives to the Iberian refuge group that migrated across Europe and north Africa 15,000ybp and Sami people are probably from the first Scandinavians 11,000ybp

Iberia has 236 mtDNA samples from the Neolithic age that is way higher than any other region in the world I think it is enough mtDNA to say what haplogroups Neolithic Iberians had it shows they had the same haplogroups as most modern Europeans

And Iberian Ice age refuge 15,000ybp spread alot of mtDNA groups acroos Europe and North west Africa and are probably a major ancestral source of modern Europeans and where probably the first setllers of Scandinavia so Iberia is important for all Europeans ancestry and somewhat important for ancestry of north west Africans

Here are 15,000 year old Magdalonian carvings from La Marche cave in western France near the area of the Iberian refuge so these people in the carvings might be related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marche_(cave)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34772&d=1371543266
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34773&d=1371543491
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34774&d=1371543667
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34775&d=1371543685
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34776&d=1371543701

Here are some other Threads i made about ancient DNA
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84012-Middle-to-late-Neolithic-6-625-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-or-European

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83954-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-eye-color-of-ancient-Indo-Iranians-from-3-800-1-900ybp

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83933-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-and-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe-6-000-8-000-ybp

[Lábaru]

Cantabrina? :(

[Fire Haired]

Cantabrina? :(

what are u trying to say

[Lábaru]

what are u trying to say

Is Cantabrian(sea ​​or coast or land) and Braña study is of only two individuals, too unreliable, both the study and his interpretation.

[Fire Haired]

the La Brana study was not unreadble and when u say Cantabrian if u mean the three mtDNA samples from Magdaleaen Cantabrian from what i know it is offical they had H6,H, and U5

since La Brana who was a hunter was most relted to northern Europeans mainly Sami and Finnish people this means modern Iberians are mainly descended from people who came in Neolithic times probably 7,000-10,000ybp and also have some blood from La brana people

[Lábaru]

the La Brana study was not unreadble and when u say Cantabrian if u mean the three mtDNA samples from Magdaleaen Cantabrian from what i know it is offical they had H6,H, and U5

since La Brana who was a hunter was most relted to northern Europeans mainly Sami and Finnish people this means modern Iberians are mainly descended from people who came in Neolithic times probably 7,000-10,000ybp and also have some blood from La brana people

that's the point, you can not judge the whole peninsula by two individuals, even the DNA of the two individuals is not fully analysed.

[Fire Haired]

i know it is not enough but there is also 4 out of 8 mtDNA remains in Portugal from 7,500-9,500ybp had mtDNA H

and mtDNA H1 and H3 originated in northern Spain and are most popular in that area at about 40% and over all it is about 25-35% in Iberia and it did not come in any recent migrations because that is where it originated about 50-70% of Iberian mtDNA was already there over 10,000yb aka before the Neolithic age same with most of Europe

and those 12,000 year old mtDNA remains i mentioned two of them had mtDNA V which originated in northern Spain about 15,000ybp so these where Iberian immigrants and it came from the Iberian refuge migrators and Iberian mtDNA from the Iberian refuge is still popular in north west Africa today there has been alot of research on this and they concluded by looking at teh DNA and age testing it that H1,H3,V, and U5b came to north west africa from a migration about 8,000-9,000ybphttp://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378

i would bring it up to 12,000-15,000ybp but what this proves is that the Iberian mtDNA in north west africa is not from recent inter marriage and those 12,000 year old mtDNA remains in moorco where actulley Iberian immigrants and they had mainly mtDNA H so that is another reason why i think Iberians 12,000-15,000ybp had mainly mtDNA H

modern Iberians have basically the same mtDNA as Mesolithic and Paleolithic Iberians 10,000-15,000ybp the only groups that came from mid eastern farmers are T2b,K,H5,H13,U1, and U7 they take up small percentages of Europeans and Iberians mtDNA

[Fire Haired]

Since u are Iberian here is some stuff about the origin of modern Iberians

the LA Brana who was a hunter gather in northern Spain from 7,000ybp was most related to modern northern Europeans mainly Sami and Finnish people just like 5,000ybp hunter gathers in south Sweden this probably means most of modern Iberians are from people who came in the Neolithic age the austomnal DNA of farmers in Europe from over 5,000ybp is most related to southern Europeans like Iberians

but like i said in the other post about 50-75% of Iberian mtDNA has been there for 10,000-15,000 years the groups are H1,H3,V, and U the reason u know this is sure is H1,H3,and V originated in Spain 15,000ybp they don't come from the Neolithic age and the U subclades that take up Iberian U are very rare in the mid east and mainly found in Europeans and all are over 30,000 years old and most originated in Europe


most of Iberians blood and ancestry came there in Neloithci times but there mtDNA is mainly from pre Neolithic Iberians H1,H3, and V all originated in northern Spain and are are 15,000 years old and take up 30-55% of mtDNA in Iberia and about 15% of modern Iberians mtDNA is U and just about all of it is from pre NEloithci Europe except for U1 and U7 which are less than 1% so at least 50-70% of modern Iberian mtDNA lineages are pre Neloithic ( over 10,000ybp)

so the farmers in Iberia 7,000ybp where the same people as modern Iberians i think they where a mix of the native Iberians and incoming northern Anatolian farmers who had Y DNA G2a the native hunter gathers had I2a1 and I2a today about 60% of Iberians have Y DNA R1b S116 but this haplogroups is only 4,500-5,000 years old it came to Europe with Indo European Italo Celtic and Germanic languages http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y- DNA.shtml)

the Celts brought R1b to Spain about from 3,000-2,300ybp the Celts where central Europeans the Romans directly said the Gauls looked different from Iberians they said the Gauls where blonde haired and had snow white skin the Iberians where dark haired and olive or white skinned i dont live in Iberia but i am pretty sure that is what modern ones look like so modern Iberians defintley don't have mainly Celtic ancestry they come from the pre Indo European Iberians who definally come from the Neolithic Iberians

Y DNA I2a1a1 is a pre Indo European Y DNA haplogroup it only exists in Iberia,France, Italy and Sardina when i was trying to find the Y DNA haplogroups of the Iberians i got a map from 2,300bp of Iberia i saw the non Celtic speaking areas it perfectly matches the highest areas of I2a1a in Iberia and the Basque who still are not Indo European have the highest amount at 10-15%
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34777&d=1371550309
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

also there was two Y DNA I2a1a samples from 5,000 year old south western French Neolithic remains this means that the main ancestor group of modern Iberian originally had a Y DNA haplogroup that was from Neolithic western Europe

in a thread i made a theory i have a map of all the different ethnic groups in Europe and a list of their Y DNA haplogroups and hair and eye color
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83933-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-and-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe-6-000-8-000-ybp

Y DNA I2a1 is over 10,000 years old and is from Mesolithic Europe but I2a1a is just over 8,000 years old and probably spread Neolithic times the northern Anatolian G2a invaded the native Y DNA I groups in Europe the G2a northern Anatolian people also gave the farmers in Europe a less northern European austomnal DNA the majority of ancestry of southern Europeans probably come from a mix northern European type hunter gathers and northern Anatolian type farmers

basically what i am trying to say is modern Iberians are mainly descended from Neolithic Iberians and have lived there for over 7,000 years and they are a mix of north European hunter gather type like La Brana and north Anatolian farmer type and most mtDNA lineages in Iberia where already there 15,000 years ago but Y DNA J1,J2, and E1b1b are 16-25% in Iberia J2 and J1 definally came in Greco Roman times E1b1b V13 was found in a 7,000 year old farmer in north spain so it was already i Spain but most of it probably came in Greco Roman times so that is another part of Iberians ancestry

also Italo Celtic Y DNA R1b S116 is over 50-60% in Iberia it came mainly when celts migrated there 3,000-2,3000ybp the Celts are not the main ancestors of Iberian but most of Spain was Celt Iberian or Celtic before 2,300ybp their culture was very similar to Celts but their blood was mainly Iberian so modern Iberian have some celtic blood and since a few mtDNA remains from Neolithic Iberia over 6,000ybp had sub sahren African Y DNA L2a and L3 this means there was a little bit of sub sahren african inter marriage but it was probably spread by north Africans who when they where in Africa inter married then spread that lineage to Iberia so Iberians have at least a tiny bit of sub Saharan African blood more than anyone else in Europe and they defintley have some North African blood

please tell me what u think about my opinion on the origins of Iberian people

[Damião de Góis]

the Celts brought R1b to Spain about from 3,000-2,300ybp the Celts where central Europeans the Romans directly said the Gauls looked different from Iberians they said the Gauls where blonde haired and had snow white skin the Iberians where dark haired and olive or white skinned i dont live in Iberia but i am pretty sure that is what modern ones look like so modern Iberians defintley don't have mainly Celtic ancestry they come from the [B][I]pre Indo European Iberians who definally come from the Neolithic Iberians


Almost everyone here is R1b, so what you say makes no sense. Either R1b is not celtic, or iberians have mainly celtic ancestry... which i doubt because that would mean massive population replacement.

Also R1b is high in non-celtic speaking areas (in pre-roman times) like Catalonia or Basque Country.

[Fire Haired]

Y DNA is just a direct lineage like alast name my last name comes from scotland but i am only 15% scottish Iberians do have 60% Celtic Y DNA but that does not make them CEltic R1b L11 which is teh type western europe has is only 5,000 years old the INdo Europeans spread it sacross europe that does not make everyone indo europeans and there was not a population replacment in Spain and Portugal the Celts uslley had the upperhand in the wars there so the celts replaced the old y DNA haplogroups in Iberia

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

just because u have R1b Y DNA does not means u have 100% celtic or whatever ancestry it is just ur direct lineage

finnish people have mainly Y DNA N1c1 which is north east siberia but do finnish look east asian no maybe some rarelly do the reason why they have so much north east asian Y DNA is tehy where conquered about 7,000ybp people get very confused and think ur yu dna haplogroup is ur full ancestry

but it is true that there was some population replacement that happned in western europe because of teh R1b L11 INdo Europeans everyone with red hair probably has mainly R1b L11 Indo European ancestry all red hair in western Europehttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fgenetics%2Forig ins_of_red_hair.shtml&ei=4BLCUaXKIsL1iwKJ9IHIBg&usg=AFQjCNEP1vrHeoa6NjY8zkDGe4ZGqrCHfg

except in parts of Scandinavia and the udmurt people comes from the r1b l11 Indo Europeans and since red hair in frane, germany,British isles, and southern scandnavia is about 5% that means people in those areas have alot of r1b L11 Indo European ancestry and since red hair is such a recessive gene that mens the R1b L11 INdo Europeans had to almost replace the population that used to live there

[Damião de Góis]

Y DNA is just a direct lineage like alast name my last name comes from scotland but i am only 15% scottish Iberians do have 60% Celtic Y DNA but that does not make them CEltic R1b L11 which is teh type western europe has is only 5,000 years old the INdo Europeans spread it sacross europe that does not make everyone indo europeans and there was not a population replacment in Spain and Portugal the Celts uslley had the upperhand in the wars there so the celts replaced the old y DNA haplogroups in Iberia

R1b L11 is kind of rare, and doesn't seem to exist much in western europe

http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/r1bsub-structurev2.png

Yes i know what Y-DNA is. It basically means that at one point, most men here were R1b.

As i've said, in Iberia R1b doesn't correlate with former celtic-speaking areas. In fact, R1b doesn't correlate with former celtic areas in Europe either:

http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/blogfiles/bronceatlantico/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Celts_in_Europe2.png/360px-Celts_in_Europe2.png

[Fire Haired]

R1b L11 is the ancestor from of all western European R1b of course it is rare but all R1b in Europe dcends from

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplog roup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=3WTCUeK5FpTYyQH_ioDoCg&usg=AFQjCNHXsHj4Btu0ZPVHyQKiyCoKbeHnKw

this link explains everything rB! in Europe comes from the IndoE uropeans i call them the R1b L11 Indo Europeans because they would have orignally had R1b L11 all R1b in western Europe decends from R1b L11 and teh R1b subclades in Europe perfectly match with Indo European language families it is a fact that R1b was spread by indo Europeans in western Europe and all red hair in western Europe comes from those Indo Europeans

so i have probably mainly R1b L11 INdo European ancestry because i have red hair that is why if u look atwhere my name is and it mentions ethnicty i but over 60% R1b L11 Indo European

the reason why i have so muchR1b L11 INdo European ancestry and why R1b L11 and its decendants are so popular in western Europe is because they conquered just about every spot in western europe from 5,000-3,000ybp the Italo Celts whi have R1b L11 conquered France,central Europe, Italy, and most of Spain the Germanic ones conquered first GErmany then later conquered southern Scandnavia about 4,000ybp but then teh southern scandnvaien ones conquered the German ones just over 2,000ybp

people in europe today who have mainly R1b L11 Indo uropean ancestry are Irish,Scottish,Welsh,Nornish, and Britannys then after them Germans,French, southern Scandnvaiens the fact that all red hair in western europe comes from those indo europeans and that red hair is about 5% in GErmany,FRance, south scandnvai, and teh Britsih isles and that red hair is a resscive gene that means they have alot of ancestry from those people

check out origins of red hair on eupedia they explain how all red hair comes from R1b Indo Europeans https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fgenetics%2Forig ins_of_red_hair.shtml&ei=nmbCUe78BIv4ywHtgYHIDg&usg=AFQjCNEP1vrHeoa6NjY8zkDGe4ZGqrCHfg

The R1b L11 Indo Europeans are not the jonly Indo Europeans that had alot of red hair the INdo Iraniens who spread the Indo European language to asia also had alot of red hair i explain the ethnic origin of Indo Iraniens in this thread http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83954-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-eye-color-of-ancient-Indo-Iranians-from-3-800-1-900ybp

even though iberians and italiens have mainly Y DNA R1b L11 subclades that does not means they have mainly R1b L11 Indo European ancestry the reason why they have so much is that when Celtic people migrated to Iberia about 3,000ybp they won most of teh wars and conquered most of Iberia because they had superior iron weapons and the Celts who had R1b killed off the old Y DNA haplogroups like I2a1a1 and G2a so then most Iberian got R1b even though the Celts in Iberia where genetically mainly Iberia they still had Celtic R1b and Celtic culture and they though of themselves as Celts most of spain before Rome conquered them spoke a Celtic language but the Celts did not completly conquer spain not all of it was celtic and many parts where celt iberians because neither group could conquer each other

the reason why R1b is so popular in Italy but red hair is not is because the Italian speakers migrated to Italy about 3,100ybp they quikley conquered most of it because they had iron weapons but like in Spain they inter married alot and quikley became mainly like the people who already lived there but they still kept R1b and the language but red hair still exsists in north spain and northern italy

[HispaniaSagrada]

That Celts came from central Europe is now, and has been, being challenged by what seems to me to be a considerable number of people. You've probably already heard of that but if not it's real easy to find online.

http://www.academia.edu/1432724/Celtic_Origins_Iberian_Connections

Also interesting is the work of Carlos Castelo.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77539-Origin-of-Portuguese-amp-Castilian-has-Always-Been-the-Same-%28Latin-came-from-Proto-Iberian-Konii

and there's much more out there.

But too bad most people only seem to be interested in classifying sluts and football players.

[Tropico]

Im interested in the E-V13 findings. Any more on that?

[Fire Haired]

it was 7,000 years old farmer in north Spain E1b1b V13 is most popular in Europe not north Africa some of it spread in the MEsloithci age 10,000-15,000ybp mainly in Spain and south east Europe but most of it spread in Greco Roman times here is a thread about this http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-and-European

E1b1b V13 orignally came from North Africa about 15,000ybp surprisingly Adolf Hitler had E1b1b V13
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[Fire Haired]

That Celts came from central Europe is now, and has been, being challenged by what seems to me to be a considerable number of people. You've probably already heard of that but if not it's real easy to find online.

http://www.academia.edu/1432724/Celtic_Origins_Iberian_Connections

Also interesting is the work of Carlos Castelo.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77539-Origin-of-Portuguese-amp-Castilian-has-Always-Been-the-Same-%28Latin-came-from-Proto-Iberian-Konii

and there's much more out there.

But too bad most people only seem to be interested in classifying sluts and football players.

Celts lived in western Europe but they orignally came fro the steppes and volga Russia their ancestors who where the R1b L11 INdo Europeans conquered western Europe from 5,000-3,000ybp the Celts had mainly Invader blood red hair was also spread by the R1b L11 Indo Europeans and since red hair is a reccesive gene and celts had about 10% they probably had mainly R1b L11 Indo European blood
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fgenetics%2Forig ins_of_red_hair.shtml&ei=ERzFUcrGJMOEygHJ4YHwBQ&usg=AFQjCNEP1vrHeoa6NjY8zkDGe4ZGqrCHfg

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplog roup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=IxzFUbfjMcXTyAG1qIGABQ&usg=AFQjCNHXsHj4Btu0ZPVHyQKiyCoKbeHnKw

[HispaniaSagrada]

Celts lived in western Europe but they orignally came fro the steppes and volga Russia their ancestors who where the R1b L11 INdo Europeans conquered western Europe from 5,000-3,000ybp the Celts had mainly Invader blood red hair was also spread by the R1b L11 Indo Europeans and since red hair is a reccesive gene and celts had about 10% they probably had mainly R1b L11 Indo European blood
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fgenetics%2Forig ins_of_red_hair.shtml&ei=ERzFUcrGJMOEygHJ4YHwBQ&usg=AFQjCNEP1vrHeoa6NjY8zkDGe4ZGqrCHfg

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplog roup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=IxzFUbfjMcXTyAG1qIGABQ&usg=AFQjCNHXsHj4Btu0ZPVHyQKiyCoKbeHnKw

If you say so. My arms are up in the air. I just don't know.

What do you know about the Bell Beakers?

[Artek]

Celts lived in western Europe but they orignally came fro the steppes and volga Russia
It's not very likely. Most probable way is south of the Pontic Sea and then south of the Danube

[Fire Haired]

It's not very likely. Most probable way is south of the Pontic Sea and then south of the Danube

what evidence do u have

[Artek]

what evidence do u have
My evidence is a lack of evidence for your statement.

No signs of a visible gene flow through the Steppe north of the Caucasus.

Lack of any significant amount of Western Asian Admixture in people there(I don't count the Tatars).

And a simple thing - haplogroups. Their distribution and evolution suggests a gene flow of R1b's from what is now Turkey, through the southern Europe. Let's consider a recent study of the bulgarian haplogroups, where scientists observed some non-trivial amounts of R1b-L11 and suggested quite ancient age of it in Bulgaria.

If Pontic Steppe was so much R1b, it would be more common in Slavs. But it's not.

etc. etc.

[Fire Haired]

My evidence is a lack of evidence for your statement.

No signs of a visible gene flow through the Steppe north of the Caucasus.

Lack of any significant amount of Western Asian Admixture in people there(I don't count the Tatars).

And a simple thing - haplogroups. Their distribution and evolution suggests a gene flow of R1b's from what is now Turkey, through the southern Europe. Let's consider a recent study of the bulgarian haplogroups, where scientists observed some non-trivial amounts of R1b-L11 and suggested quite ancient age of it in Bulgaria.

If Pontic Steppe was so much R1b, it would be more common in Slavs. But it's not.

etc. etc.

i dont think there is enough DNA to tell where R1b L11 Indo European in western europe came from i really really doubt they went through turkey the first indo europeans in trukey where hittites Indo European culture took off in teh pontic steppes not turkey sure teh maykop culture should signs of being indo european but that is probably because of contact with steppe people the culture of teh Nordic bronze age, Unetic culture and other early indo european cultures ine urope trace to to stepppe cultures the Unetice 4,000ybp and modern irish and scottish used plaid clothing this clothing was also similar to GErmanic tribes clothing and to teh clothing ancinet syhthiens wore and there was palid tarten clothing fom INdo Iranien taroum mummies from 3,000ybp so they had teh same clthing as western european R1b L11 Indo Europeans and we know they came form the steppes so it makes sense that teh R1b L11 INdo Europeans also came from the steppes the Bulgarian thing i not goo enough evidence

u dont find high amounts of west asian and southwest asian globe13 austomnal DNA in R1b areas in europe liek u would except if tehy came from Turkey and since lets say orignally tehy had 100% R1b when tehy where in turkey tehy would have still inter married with other people in turkey who had mainly Y DNA J then why dont u see any J in Ireland or Denmark or any where in western europe besides known areas of Greco Romans there is no trace of a mid eastern trukish gene flow in western europe except Italy because of the Greco Roman world

and there is a huge connection with red hair and R1b L11 in western europe which means it rpobablycame from those indo europeans which means they where white europeans not brown turkish people and they probably did not come from south eastern europe either and the fact that indo iraniens also had alot of red hair and they came from steppe indo europeans too that probably means the ones in western europe came from the steppe

u mad that thread about the DNA from northern steppe cultures 5,000-6,000ybp like yamna they might get DNA from the ancestors of the Adronovo people or the Indo European that went to western europe i was suprised when they said they had dark eyes because over 70% of Indo Iranien remains had light eyes but people in that area today have less than 15% light eyes

u cant just say because slavs dont have R1b means they did not g through eastern europe R1b L11 we dont know right now why some indo european groups had almost only R1a1a1b and why the western european ones and probably the Hittites had almost only R1b or why INdo Europeans are so connected to R1a and R1b

[Atlantic Islander]

Interesting.

[Äijä]

These IE theories are facinating, it could they also had the first airplane in the world.

Launched from the steppe and hit a mountain in Iberia, only a few survivors but they conquered.

[Fire Haired]

These IE theories are facinating, it could they also had the first airplane in the world.

Launched from the steppe and hit a mountain in Iberia, only a few survivors but they conquered.

I wrote this thread along time ago, my opinion has probably changed a lot. I probably had exaggerated ideas about spread of Indo Europeans. I am wondering do Finnish have anything against the rest of Europe since they are not Indo European speakers and have been oppressed. Who is your profile picture? It looks like a Viking but your Finnish not Swedish, Norwegian, or Danish. It would be a good fight my guy who is trying to look like an ancient Celtic warrior from west Europe vs a non Indo European Finn from northern Europe. It is like two very different world colliding.

[Anthropologique]

These IE theories are facinating, it could they also had the first airplane in the world.

Launched from the steppe and hit a mountain in Iberia, only a few survivors but they conquered.

LOL!

[Graham]

R1b is mainly Bell Beaker and could be the ancestor of the Celtic languages.

[Anthropologique]

R1b is mainly Bell Beaker and could be the ancestor of the Celtic languages.

I agree. Another reason why an increasing number of informed people believe Celticity may have first spread along the Atlantic Facade - Iberia to Scotland.

[Äijä]

I wrote this thread along time ago, my opinion has probably changed a lot. I probably had exaggerated ideas about spread of Indo Europeans. I am wondering do Finnish have anything against the rest of Europe since they are not Indo European speakers and have been oppressed. Who is your profile picture? It looks like a Viking but your Finnish not Swedish, Norwegian, or Danish. It would be a good fight my guy who is trying to look like an ancient Celtic warrior from west Europe vs a non Indo European Finn from northern Europe. It is like two very different world colliding.

Random picture, could be me if I had a helmet. :rolleyes:

Finns have not been oppressed compared to others in Europe so no need to pity, thanks anyway.

And no offence, Finns are genetically more "Indo-European" than most of Europe.

Finns where raiding and traiding in boats armed to the teeth, you can call them what you want, does not make any difference to me.

[Fire Haired]

R1b is mainly Bell Beaker and could be the ancestor of the Celtic languages.

R1b was found in two males from Bell beaker Germany dating to about 2,500BC that's it. R1b L11 ancestor forms came through by the east, but Bell beaker was native to that region of Europe. The mtDNA from Bell beaker is very much unlike that of the previous Neolithic people of central Europe and very much like neighboring Indo European Corded ware culture which came from the east(click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?106725-Evidence-in-Ancient-central-European-DNA-of-major-Genetic-changes-in-Europe-during-the-metal-ages)). The ancestral languages to Italo Celts also came from the east. The origin of most of modern central Europeans ancestry and many western in my opinion was far eastern Europe just 6,000 years ago. There are huge difference in autosomal DNA to of Neolithic farmers of west Europe and modern people, mainly there is much more hunter gatherer ancestry today.

[Fire Haired]

Random picture, could be me if I had a helmet. :rolleyes:

Finns have not been oppressed compared to others in Europe so no need to pity, thanks anyway.

And no offence, Finns are genetically more "Indo-European" than most of Europe.

Finns where raiding and traiding in boats armed to the teeth, you can call them what you want, does not make any difference to me.

Finns are non Indo Europeans and have a very small amount of ancestry from Indo European speakers. R1a1a1b1 Z284 was spread in Europe by Corded ware culture, its is very rare in Scandinavia but around 20-30% in Norway-Sweden. R1b L11 may have been spread by Indo Europeans and almost all of the R1b in Finland is found in western Finland and probably from mixing with Swedes. In my opinion Finnish mainly descend from Uralic's who came in the copper or bronze age from Russia or somewhere else in eastern Europe. mtDNA and Y DNA from hunter gatherers of Scandinavia and mtDNA from hunter gatherers of Karelia show little evidence of genetic continuum with the people there today. mtDNA of Finland is mainly European farmer descended. There is mtDNA J1c, J2b1a, J2a1a1a, T2b, H5, H1, K1, K2, etc. like in the rest of Europe. There is a high amount of U5 in Finland but the majority is under U5b1b1a or U5b1b2 both estimated to be about 4,000 years old and I have heard may have originated in eastern Europe. The U5's from Scandinavians and Karelia hunter gatherers was all U5a. There Is close to 0% I2a1 in Scandinavia and hardly any I2a1b, so the first settlers of Scandinavia left hardily any blood in modern Scandinavians. Finnish and Sami though have about the highest about of European hunter gatherer ancestry overall it definitely takes up the majority of their ancestry.

[Äijä]

Finns are non Indo Europeans and have a very small amount of ancestry from Indo European speakers. R1a1a1b1 Z284 was spread in Europe by Corded ware culture, its is very rare in Scandinavia but around 20-30% in Norway-Sweden. R1b L11 may have been spread by Indo Europeans and almost all of the R1b in Finland is found in western Finland and probably from mixing with Swedes. In my opinion Finnish mainly descend from Uralic's who came in the copper or bronze age from Russia or somewhere else in eastern Europe. mtDNA and Y DNA from hunter gatherers of Scandinavia and mtDNA from hunter gatherers of Karelia show little evidence of genetic continuum with the people there today. mtDNA of Finland is mainly European farmer descended. There is mtDNA J1c, J2b1a, J2a1a1a, T2b, H5, H1, K1, K2, etc. like in the rest of Europe. There is a high amount of U5 in Finland but the majority is under U5b1b1a or U5b1b2 both estimated to be about 4,000 years old and I have heard may have originated in eastern Europe. The U5's from Scandinavians and Karelia hunter gatherers was all U5a. There Is close to 0% I2a1 in Scandinavia and hardly any I2a1b, so the first settlers of Scandinavia left hardily any blood in modern Scandinavians. Finnish and Sami though have about the highest about of European hunter gatherer ancestry overall it definitely takes up the majority of their ancestry.

You actually believe all this? :bored:

[Fire Haired]

You actually believe all this? :bored:
It is all true, so yeah. Why in the world would you believe Finns have the most Indo European ancestry when all evidence says the opposite.

[Smeagol]

I agree. Another reason why an increasing number of informed people believe Celticity may have first spread along the Atlantic Facade - Iberia to Scotland.

But according to this theory The Megalithic people who settled Iberia, and the British Isles were Celts, resulting ultimately from the Neolithic farmer settlement of the Mediterranean, so this theory basically supports the Anatolian hypothesis of Indoeuropean origins which has a lot of problems with it.

[Lábaru]

so i have probably mainly R1b L11 INdo European ancestry because i have red hair that is why if u look atwhere my name is and it mentions ethnicty i but over 60% R1b L11 Indo European

Ouh, I respect your interest in genetics and the work of your threads but you might want to be more cautious in asserting such vague things, sometimes the mind wants to find a reason, a placement order for all kind of things and does lead us to erroneous theories.



even though iberians and italiens have mainly Y DNA R1b L11 subclades that does not means they have mainly R1b L11 Indo European ancestry the reason why they have so much is that when Celtic people migrated to Iberia about 3,000ybp they won most of teh wars and conquered most of Iberia because they had superior iron weapons and the Celts who had R1b killed off the old Y DNA haplogroups like I2a1a1 and G2a so then most Iberian got R1b even though the Celts in Iberia where genetically mainly Iberia they still had Celtic R1b and Celtic culture and they though of themselves as Celts most of spain before Rome conquered them spoke a Celtic language but the Celts did not completly conquer spain not all of it was celtic and many parts where celt iberians because neither group could conquer each other

Alexdelarge is trying to tell you that the areas of Spain with the highest R1b are the Iberian, not the Celts areas, so the R1B rained from heaven or was not brought there by the Celts. You may want to remodel your theory because Alex is right.



the reason why R1b is so popular in Italy but red hair is not is because the Italian speakers migrated to Italy about 3,100ybp they quikley conquered most of it because they had iron weapons but like in Spain they inter married alot and quikley became mainly like the people who already lived there but they still kept R1b and the language but red hair still exsists in north spain and northern italy

Red hair is presents in the whole Spain, including the South but for my fun the place that most natural redheads shows that I know are Alicante and Valencia, both old Iberian areas with not Celts settlements.

[Äijä]

It is all true, so yeah. Why in the world would you believe Finns have the most Indo European ancestry when all evidence says the opposite.

I used "Indo-Europeans", as Im not claiming we speak that pidgin.

If you think that Iberians are genetically or culturally closer to ancient East Eurasian pastoralists than Finnics, I cant help but to disagree.

[Fire Haired]

Ouh, I respect your interest in genetics and the work of your threads but you might want to be more cautious in asserting such vague things, sometimes the mind wants to find a reason, a placement order for all kind of things and does lead us to erroneous theories.



Alexdelarge is trying to tell you that the areas of Spain with the highest R1b are the Iberian, not the Celts areas, so the R1B rained from heaven or was not brought there by the Celts. You may want to remodel your theory because Alex is right.




Red hair is presents in the whole Spain, including the South but for my fun the place that most natural redheads shows that I know are Alicante and Valencia, both old Iberian areas with not Celts settlements.

Your arguing with myself from 6 months ago I don't exactly think the same things.

[Fire Haired]

I used "Indo-Europeans", as Im not claiming we speak that pidgin.

If you think that Iberians are genetically or culturally closer to ancient East Eurasian pastoralists than Finnics, I cant help but to disagree.

Why do you think Finnish are the most Indo European genetically.

[Äijä]

Why do you think Finnish are the most Indo European genetically.

I said more than most Europeans, Im not claiming first place in a hypothetical competition, NE Europeans are all very much alike.

What is the genetical composition you imagine they had?

[Hweinlant]

In my opinion Finnish mainly descend from Uralic's who came in the copper or bronze age from Russia or somewhere else in eastern Europe.


Who else was living in "Russia and else in Eastern Europe" during Copper Age ? :D

Hint: Proto-Indo-Europeans.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4fyGtwWJTMI/UKpNK618KvI/AAAAAAAAHd4/3X5GQF0efE8/s640/preironage.png
HG = Eastern and Central Europen hunter-gathers (dimension is created by mtdna U4 and U5)
KUR-BA (Bronze Age Steppe Kurgan builders aka ARYANS).
KR = Karelians
MO = Mordvinians
UD = Udmurts
KO = Komi
FIN = Finns

All of the Finno-Ugric posse is closer to Steppe Kurgan builders AND Central/Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers than ANY other European populations. PIEs were our brothers from the same mothers.

Title: Mitochondrial DNA in ancient human populations of Europe.
Author: Dersarkissian, Clio Simone Irmgard (http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/74221)

[Fire Haired]

Who else was living in "Russia and else in Eastern Europe" during Copper Age ? :D

Hint: Proto-Indo-Europeans.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4fyGtwWJTMI/UKpNK618KvI/AAAAAAAAHd4/3X5GQF0efE8/s640/preironage.png
HG = Eastern and Central Europen hunter-gathers (dimension is created by mtdna U4 and U5)
KUR-BA (Bronze Age Steppe Kurgan builders aka ARYANS).
KR = Karelians
MO = Mordvinians
UD = Udmurts
KO = Komi
FIN = Finns

All of the Finno-Ugric posse is closer to Steppe Kurgan builders AND Central/Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers than ANY other European populations. PIEs were our brothers from the same mothers.

Title: Mitochondrial DNA in ancient human populations of Europe.
Author: Dersarkissian, Clio Simone Irmgard (http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/74221)

Just look at the mtDNA your self don't trust PCA graphs Ancient Eurasian DNA organized 2 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F106283-Ancient-Eurasian-DNA-Organized-2&ei=0XvMUqKrJYPPqwHRk4C4Cw&usg=AFQjCNGa68d7wLwNwroClVfWb2NFyTVyUg&sig2=adKuqnTE05ZtSJyxKZeJNg&bvm=bv.59026428,d.aWM), Ancestral Journeys (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestraljourneys.org%2F&ei=-3vMUp3DFcWvqAHxqICYCA&usg=AFQjCNGxFkyfmYfchqwhHCwxYf593URSWg&sig2=phLLQnM091Wn7dJxFSFVGQ&bvm=bv.59026428,d.aWM). mtDNA U5, U4, and U2e probably dominated almost all European hunter gatherers during the Mesolithic. U5's lineage came to Europe over 30,000 years ago(proven by ancient mtDNA) subclades of U5 really matter. All 13 of the 13 subclades from U5 of the bronze and iron age kurgan people of Asia(Indo Iranians) was under U5a the vast majority of U5 in Finnish is under U5b so no connection there. All 28 of 28 pre historic U5 samples from Ukraine and Russia had U5a so once again no connection. There is also a high amount of U4 and U2e in Mesolithic people of Russia(including Karelia) while both those haplogroups are almost completely non existent in Finnish-Sami, so once again no maternal connection. Finnish have a very low amount of R1a1a1 M417 and R1b L11(Swedish inter marriage) so low amount of Indo European paternal ancestry. Finnish are dominated by N1c1(probably connected with Uralic languages in Europe), and I1a2 L22(non Germanic and non Uralic source). I have just started learning about the possible origins of Finnish-Sami it makes the most sense to me to say they came from Russia in the copper age. Who knows there may be a genetic connection with early Indo Europeans of Russia but maybe not, I haven't seen any evidence yet.

[Hweinlant]

Just look at the mtDNA your self don't trust PCA graphs
*


Stop mumbling, right now. I asked you an specific question:
Who else was living in "Russia and else in Eastern Europe" during Copper Age ?



the vast majority of U5 in Finnish is under U5b so no connection there. All 28 of 28 pre historic U5 samples from Ukraine and Russia had U5a so once again no connection.


I've no idea where you pull your data (probably from Eupedia or some other trash source). Both types of U5 are present in East Baltic area, including in Finns. U4 is also present.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2j4wysl.png
Lappalainen et al 2008, Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region



There is also a high amount of U4 and U2e in Mesolithic people of Russia(including Karelia) while both those haplogroups are almost completely non existent in Finnish-Sami, so once again no maternal connection.


There is no such population as Finnish-Saami, there are Finns and there are Saamis, two separate population having very different genetic makeup. You really think someone could take you seriously if you don't even know basic stuff ?



Finnish have a very low amount of R1a1a1 M417 and R1b L11(Swedish inter marriage) so low amount of Indo European paternal ancestry. Finnish are dominated by N1c1(probably connected with Uralic languages in Europe)


Indeed but I was not writing about y-dna. Finns are rarity within Finno-Ugric speaking populations for having so very little of R1a1a*, all other F-U speaking populations have much much more of it. R1b-L11 has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans and there is absolutely no evidence for it ever been present in the Volga-Urals, where from both Finno-Ugric and Indo-European language groups originate from. Strain of R1b which MIGHT have been present at Volga-Urals is R1b-M73 which is pretty much nill at Europe (excluding Ukraine, Russia). It's mostly found from Turkic speaking populations today.

[Äijä]

Just look at the mtDNA your self don't trust PCA graphs Ancient Eurasian DNA organized 2 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F106283-Ancient-Eurasian-DNA-Organized-2&ei=0XvMUqKrJYPPqwHRk4C4Cw&usg=AFQjCNGa68d7wLwNwroClVfWb2NFyTVyUg&sig2=adKuqnTE05ZtSJyxKZeJNg&bvm=bv.59026428,d.aWM), Ancestral Journeys (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestraljourneys.org%2F&ei=-3vMUp3DFcWvqAHxqICYCA&usg=AFQjCNGxFkyfmYfchqwhHCwxYf593URSWg&sig2=phLLQnM091Wn7dJxFSFVGQ&bvm=bv.59026428,d.aWM). mtDNA U5, U4, and U2e probably dominated almost all European hunter gatherers during the Mesolithic. U5's lineage came to Europe over 30,000 years ago(proven by ancient mtDNA) subclades of U5 really matter. All 13 of the 13 subclades from U5 of the bronze and iron age kurgan people of Asia(Indo Iranians) was under U5a the vast majority of U5 in Finnish is under U5b so no connection there. All 28 of 28 pre historic U5 samples from Ukraine and Russia had U5a so once again no connection. There is also a high amount of U4 and U2e in Mesolithic people of Russia(including Karelia) while both those haplogroups are almost completely non existent in Finnish-Sami, so once again no maternal connection. Finnish have a very low amount of R1a1a1 M417 and R1b L11(Swedish inter marriage) so low amount of Indo European paternal ancestry. Finnish are dominated by N1c1(probably connected with Uralic languages in Europe), and I1a2 L22(non Germanic and non Uralic source). I have just started learning about the possible origins of Finnish-Sami it makes the most sense to me to say they came from Russia in the copper age. Who knows there may be a genetic connection with early Indo Europeans of Russia but maybe not, I haven't seen any evidence yet.

Why are you obsessed with the Sami? They are a mix of Fennoscandian paleo-people, Finnic (the language they shifted to) and Germanic.

Sami name btw comes from Proto-Germanic, it means dark or black.

N1c story is not solved yet, Finnic people have a lot of R1a also and look at the maternal lines you connect to IE, Finns have a lot of W for example (most in Europe).

[Atlantic Islander]

mtDNA V originated 15,000ybp in the northern Spain so this means those Iberian refuge people did not just migrate across Europe four of the samples had mtDNA H but 14 more could have had H since so many where undecided but H was a possibility in all of them

modern north west Africans have 15-35% mtDNA H1 and H3 the Turags in Libya have 61% mtDNA H1
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378) the rest of North Africa and mid east is less 5% uselly less than 1% in the rest of Europe they average about 10-20% it is highest inn northern Spain at 40% and central and southern Scandnavia at 25-35%

also north west Africans have about 5% mtDNA V this haplogroups is almost never found in the mid east and other parts of North Africa it is about 3-5% in Europe and highest in northern Spain at 15-25% and in far northern Scandinavian Sami people at 50%. since 12,000ybp mtDNA in Morocco had V and alot of H these people where probably Spanish immigrants and represent Iberians mtDNA 12,000ybp and they had mainly mtDNA H same with pre Neolithic Iberian remains so Iberian over 12,000ybp probabley had 40-60% mtDNA H

North west Africans also have 1-5% mtDNA U5b which also originated in Europe and is the most popular group for pre Neloithci Europeans the subclade of North African U5b is most relted to Sami in northern Scandnavia the common ancester of north African and Sami U5b is estimated at 9,600ybp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics_of_the_Sami this U5b subclade takes up about 50% of Sami mtDNA this means Sami people and north Africans got their U5b from the Iberian refuge the other 50% of Sami mtDNA is V which also came from the Iberian refuge

so mtDNA haplogroups from this group that spread out of northern Spain 15,000ybp is found all over Europe and north west Africa which means they made migrations in those areas

V is also very common on the two western islands in the Azores, probably as a result of bottle-necking.

[Argang]

MtDna and Y-dna tells just a tiny part of the story anyway. Only once we have actual autosomal admixture tests on the proto-Indo-Europeans can anything be deduced.

About Y-dna I1 and relation to so-called WHG's though...who's to say the line did not mutate originally from someone like those I* hunter-gatherers in Motala? It is after all supposed to be younger than I2 if Nordtvedt is to be believed.;)

[Äijä]

It is easy to write Middle Earth theories if you intentionally forget the Uralic people, but they are a fact and leaving them out makes it fantasy.

[Fire Haired]

MtDna and Y-dna tells just a tiny part of the story anyway. Only once we have actual autosomal admixture tests on the proto-Indo-Europeans can anything be deduced.

We don't know who the proto Indo Europeans were, there are hypothesis with great evidence of who very early Indo Europeans where but that's it. We have already learned a lot about the early indo Iranians, next it will be probably very early Indo Europeans from Yamna culture(click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Feurogenes.blogspot.com%2F2013%2F0 6%2Fneue-blicke-auf-zivilisa-tionen-der.html&ei=OI_MUsf_JqSQ3AWzwYHIDQ&usg=AFQjCNGhN0TAio4Hlgz3hSgzoOqTBnIC8g&sig2=JE0yiuNOSncfkU-6BWUceQ&bvm=bv.59026428,bs.1,d.aWM)), and after that we will learn about the people who spoke the ancestral language to Balto Slavic aka Corded ware people(click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpolishgenes.blogspot.com%2F2013%2 F04%2Fhundreds-of-prehistoric-scandinavian.html&ei=HI_MUpOxOKbC2wXA9oDABw&usg=AFQjCNGoKfHvqIgkmK3zHV9DI0flKdNNFA&sig2=bmc-0U3JSLcW5Sxzm8_2Hg&bvm=bv.59026428,bs.1,d.aWM)). The Yamna stuff was suppose to come out about a month and a half ago and their study started 2 years ago. They have all the results but have taken over half a year to write their paper, I wouldn't be surprised if they are already done just they like to see people wait.

There is no indo European race there were a people who were the first Indo European speakers but who knows how well their blood survived. Even 6,000 years ago there were probably many different people who spoke Indo European languages.


About Y-dna I1 and relation to so-called WHG's though...who's to say the line did not mutate originally from someone like those I* hunter-gatherers in Motala? It is after all supposed to be younger than I2 if Nordtvedt is to be believed.;)

You should read the original study there were no I*'s. Just some that were tested for I1 or I2 subclades and were negative for all of them, all that were tested for I2 were positive. All probably had I2a1b*. Nordtvedt made a new branch in his Y DNA I tree for the Motola and Luxemburg Mesolithic samples. He said half the SNP's were ancestral or derived of I2a1b. I have heard that modern I1 is estimated to be 4,000-5,000 years old, that it split from I as long ago as I2 did, and for a very long time there were intermediates between modern I1 and I*. I guess through a founder effect all the relatives of I1 are not extinct.

[Atlantic Islander]

http://imageshack.us/a/img19/8113/rvpj.png

[Fire Haired]

http://imageshack.us/a/img19/8113/rvpj.png

This is an old stuff I can tell by the names they give to haplogroups. These people are just Iberians with I guess maybe some extra north African. The ones with 33% V there were only 36 samples and if they really do have a very high amount of V then it probably is founder effect.

[Atlantic Islander]

The ones with 33% V there were only 36 samples and if they really do have a very high amount of V then it probably is founder effect.

Yeah, it's old and not many samples were used. Those two islands have a small population (3,907 Flores island, 468 Corvo island).

[Argang]

You should read the original study there were no I*'s. Just some that were tested for I1 or I2 subclades and were negative for all of them, all that were tested for I2 were positive. All probably had I2a1b*.

I've read the study, hence "someone like". Regarding WHG and I1 connection, it's quite plausible. These HG's while not true I* were closer to it than modern I2 types, hence we can assume real I*'s, who were also ancestral to these guys and I1 were mostly WHG as well. After all if I1 in North Europe was anything but WHG origin, there should be evidence suggesting it, like I1 found in neolithic farmer remains or from areas where Indo-European expansions originated. And, of course, if I1 was spread by neolithic farmers, other farmer haplos like G should be common in North Europe too.

[Atlantic Islander]

These people are just Iberians with I guess maybe some extra north African.

Actually (this is also old):


HLA class I and II polymorphisms in Azores show different settlements in Oriental and Central islands.

Human leucocyte antigen-A, -B, -Cw, -DRB1, -DQA1 and -DQB1 polymorphisms were examined in the Azorean population. The data were obtained at high-resolution level, using polymerase chain reaction (PCR) with sequence-specific primer, PCR-sequence-specific oligonucleotides and sequence-based typing. The most frequent allele in each locus was: A*0201 (24.5%), B*510101 (9.8%), Cw*0401 (14.8%), DRB1*070101 (18.3%), DQA1*0201 (17.4%) and DQB1*0301 (19.4%). The predominant extended haplotype was A*0202-B*1503-Cw*0202-DRB1*090102-DQA1*0303- DQB1*0202 (1.9%), which was found to be absent in the Portuguese mainland. The present study corroborates historical sources that say the Azores were populated not only by Portuguese but also by other Europeans, mostly Flemish people. Despite dendrogram analysis showing some remote Asian genetic affinities, the lack of specific alleles and haplotypes from those populations does not allow us to conclude for direct influence. Haplotype and allele frequencies in Azores show no homogeneous distribution between Oriental and Central islands of this archipelago. The Oriental islands harbour several haplotypes already found in mainland Portugal and identified as Mediterranean and European. The Central group of islands on the contrary clearly shows an influence of north Europeans (most probably derived from a well-documented Flemish settlement), with much less affinity to mainland Portugal.

[Fire Haired]

Stop mumbling, right now. I asked you an specific question:
Who else was living in "Russia and else in Eastern Europe" during Copper Age ?.

I know early Indo Europeans. But Uralic's were separate and Finnish have little ancestry from Indo Europeans that migrated west out of the Russia. Sure you can argue for them having a lot of common ancestry with those early Indo Europeans of Russia but that's it. I showed you how U5a dominates U5 of pre historic Russia and Ukraine including early indo Iranians while Finnish and Sami are dominated by U5b. I showed you how there was also a high amount of U4 and U2e in Mesolithic Russians and early Indo Iranians in Asia while those two haplogroups are almost completely non existent in Finnish and Sami. You should look at the DNA results of early Indo Iranians in Asia because they were direct descendants of early Indo Europeans in Russia. Of course though not all were the same that is evident in the difference in eye color between copper age Pontiac steppe people(very dark) and bronze and iron age Indo Iranians(very light).




I've no idea where you pull your data (probably from Eupedia or some other trash source). Both types of U5 are present in East Baltic area, including in Finns. U4 is also present.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2j4wysl.png
Lappalainen et al 2008, Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region.

I pull my sources from Ancestral Journeys (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestraljourneys.org%2F&ei=fpTMUvGnA-Gp2gWtxoDYBA&usg=AFQjCNGxFkyfmYfchqwhHCwxYf593URSWg&sig2=j8GqBmVaQozBX7qXg-yr8g&bvm=bv.59026428,bs.1,d.aWM) and I organized it in my thread Ancient Eurasian DNA organized I (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F106283-Ancient-Eurasian-DNA-Organized-2&ei=kpTMUoKCG6LY2gX4loC4DQ&usg=AFQjCNGa68d7wLwNwroClVfWb2NFyTVyUg&sig2=7x2N2UunM_z_0TM-u5ky9w&bvm=bv.59026428,bs.1,d.aWM) have had to organize mtDNA myself from FTDNA to get an idea of how deep subclades are distributed(Sweden mtDNA from FTDNA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F109126-mtDNA-results-from-FTDNA-s-Sweden-project-organized%26p%3D2266378&ei=35TMUr7dMI2A2QW5rYGQAw&usg=AFQjCNH-T9z3PpejoHrQSmBZVNy6-T86aQ&sig2=EJTvSE6Ft3w93Sx8tFZyfQ&bvm=bv.59026428,bs.1,d.aWM)) it takes literally a over 15 hours of pure work my brain feels like it will explode it takes so long. I am not surprised all the U5 from Russia is under U5a it is constant with pre historic U5 from Russia all were under U5a. All the populations with a decent amount of U5b1b are from Scandinavia or around Karelia. The Baltic people also have mostly U5a(of course including U5a1) not U5b and almost no U5b1b.

I don't understand are these only results for the haplogroups they listed does it not add up to 100% for each ethnic group? Would U5a that is not U5a1 go into the U5a section. I wish they would organize it in a more understandable way like I do.




There is no such population as Finnish-Saami, there are Finns and there are Saamis, two separate population having very different genetic makeup. You really think someone could take you seriously if you don't even know basic stuff ?.

Settle down I didn't curse at the Finnish people just I know they are genetically connected with Sami or Saami whatever you want to call them. The high amount of U5b1b1a and V in both is enough evidence to say there is a genetic connection. I guess Estonian is more related to Finnish than Sami language but still they are genetically connected. When comparing the to other Europeans a lot of times they are united in their differences. I will remember they are not the same people and not always say Finnish-Sami. Just last year I had no idea there were so many strange ethnic groups in Europe like Uralic and Turks.




Indeed but I was not writing about y-dna. Finns are rarity within Finno-Ugric speaking populations for having so very little of R1a1a*, all other F-U speaking populations have much much more of it. R1b-L11 has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans and there is absolutely no evidence for it ever been present in the Volga-Urals, where from both Finno-Ugric and Indo-European language groups originate from. Strain of R1b which MIGHT have been present at Volga-Urals is R1b-M73 which is pretty much nill at Europe (excluding Ukraine, Russia). It's mostly found from Turkic speaking populations today.

But Finnish and Sami do not have a high amount of R1a so they don't have a high amount of paternal lineages from early Indo Europeans. The R1a in Estonians is probably from Corded ware culture like R1a in Balto-Slavs and Swedish-Norwegian and is probably apart of the R1a1a1b1 Z283 branch. I don't know what to say about the R1a in those remote small Uralic ethnic groups in Russia. It could have multiple sources early Yamna people, Indo Iranians, Balto-Slavs. The Y DNa makeup of the early Yaman people no longer exists they probably had close to 100% R1a1a1 M417 based on ancient y DNA of their descendants but today that region has less than 30% and most is probably from back migrations. I don't doubt Uralic and Turkic peoples in Russia have a high amount of ancestry from the Yamna people but I do doubt Finnish and Sami do. The Uralic people are a whole new world in genetics I think I should learn about. I think they are mainly descended from Mesolithic Europeans, with significant near eastern farmer ancestry, and Siberian ancestry. Of course there is also a high amount of ANE according to Laz 2013.

The reason why R1b L11 is connected with Indo Europeans is it dominates Germanic Italo Celts, is absent from Neolithic west Europe but pops up in Bell beaker Germany at ~2,500BC, and is estimated to be 5,000 years old and rapidly spread until 3,000 years ago. It arrived and spread literally at the exact times Indo European languages in west Europe probably did. Those are pretty good reasons to connect it with Indo Europeans. Like I said before Y DNA of the Yamna people is probably mainly gone from Russia so there is a possibility R1b L23 did migrate from there and eventfully made it to west Europe.

[Fire Haired]

Actually (this is also old):

Probably from the 1990's the very begging of that type of stuff.

[Atlantic Islander]

Probably from the 1990's the very begging of that type of stuff.

2005.

[Fire Haired]

Yeah, it's old and not many samples were used. Those two islands have a small population (3,907 Flores island, 468 Corvo island).

That means 100 samples from one of those island is like 1 million in Germany(exaggeration).

[Fire Haired]

I've read the study, hence "someone like". Regarding WHG and I1 connection, it's quite plausible. These HG's while not true I* were closer to it than modern I2 types, hence we can assume real I*'s, who were also ancestral to these guys and I1 were mostly WHG as well. After all if I1 in North Europe was anything but WHG origin, there should be evidence suggesting it, like I1 found in neolithic farmer remains or from areas where Indo-European expansions originated. And, of course, if I1 was spread by neolithic farmers, other farmer haplos like G should be common in North Europe too.

Y DNA I is most diverse in Europe and in my opinion probably has been there for some 30,000 years. There is no surprise it is the brother clade to near eastern J. There are many mtDNA U relatives to European hunter gatherer U5, U4, and U2e in the near east, and north Africa and northern South Asia. Autosomal DNA of European hunter gatherers groups with near easterns in the west Eurasian aka Caucasian family. It got me very angry when people ignored that European hunter gatherers were west Eurasian so saying Y DNA R or Q dominated them is unlikely, I a brother to near eastern j makes a lot more sense. I wouldn't be surprised if WGH originated in some of the earliest Europeans who brought Y DNA IJ and mtDNA U to Europe. We can never know until there are a lot of Y DNA, mtDNA, and autosomal DNA taken from upper Palaeolithic Europe.

I1a2 L22 in Scandinavia in my opinion without a doubt is non Germanic, non Uralic, and pre bronze age in Scandinavia. I don't know what to say about the rest of I1 and except I think I1 itself originated in central Europe since that is where it is most diverse. You find I1a1, I1a2, I1a3, I1a4, I1b all in central Europe.

[Argang]

I1a2 L22 in Scandinavia in my opinion without a doubt is non Germanic, non Uralic, and pre bronze age in Scandinavia. I don't know what to say about the rest of I1 and except I think I1 itself originated in central Europe since that is where it is most diverse. You find I1a1, I1a2, I1a3, I1a4, I1b all in central Europe.


Non-L22 I1 has also very obviously Scandinavian subclades.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2djbex2.jpg

[Fire Haired]

Non-L22 I1 has also very obviously Scandinavian subclades.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2djbex2.jpg

The one you are showing is a deep subclade of Z58 in central Europe, therefore could be descended from Germanic migrations. I haven't been able to study I1 subclades distribution.

[Argang]

The one you are showing is a deep subclade of Z58 in central Europe, therefore could be descended from Germanic migrations. I haven't been able to study I1 subclades distribution.

There isn't really any "germanic" and "non-germanic" divide between Z58+ and L22, Nordtvedt originally just decided to call what turned out to be L22 "Norse" and the rest "Anglo-Saxon" in his STR-based nomenclatura. Normal L22 appears commonly in continental Europe, there are even subclades of L22 like L205+ that don't exist in Scandinavia but exist in continental Europe and as we saw the opposite is true for some subclades of Z58+. Only some of their subclades (like Z74-L813, Z74-L287 and Z58-Z73) have plainly obvious regional concentrations.

[Fire Haired]

There isn't really any "germanic" and "non-germanic" divide between Z58+ and L22, Nordtvedt originally just decided to call what turned out to be L22 "Norse" and the rest "Anglo-Saxon" in his STR-based nomenclatura. Normal L22 appears commonly in continental Europe, there are even subclades of L22 like L205+ that don't exist in Scandinavia but exist in continental Europe and as we saw the opposite is true for some subclades of Z58+. Only some of their subclades (like Z74-L813, Z74-L287 and Z58-Z73) have plainly obvious regional concentrations.

I want to learn more about what the old man Nordtvedt thinks about Y DNA I, I have read he is a member. I can't wait till the I1 mystery is finally resolved, I really doubt it is only 4,000-5,000 years old.

[Lábaru]

Your arguing with myself from 6 months ago I don't exactly think the same things.

I do not do it with bad intentions, I really like your interest in genetics. if you avoid making too hasty judgments and you keep your interest and your work I'll be the first grateful. The history and origin of Europe, Iberia for example, can only be discovered with the help of the genetic.

[Äijä]

I know early Indo Europeans. But Uralic's were separate and Finnish have little ancestry from Indo Europeans that migrated west out of the Russia. Sure you can argue for them having a lot of common ancestry with those early Indo Europeans of Russia but that's it I showed you how U5a dominates U5 of pre historic Russia and Ukraine including early indo Iranians while Finnish and Sami are dominated by U5b. I showed you how there was also a high amount of U4 and U2e in Mesolithic Russians and early Indo Iranians in Asia while those two haplogroups are almost completely non existent in Finnish and Sami. You should look at the DNA results of early Indo Iranians in Asia because they were direct descendants of early Indo Europeans in Russia. Of course though not all were the same that is evident in the difference in eye color between copper age Pontiac steppe people(very dark) and bronze and iron age Indo Iranians(very light).

You keep constantly. mixing Saami and Finns.
Yes, Finns have Sami mixture but the Sami have more Finnic and Germanic mixture, I explained you their background but you ignore.

Prove that Finns are also dominated by U5b? Finns have a very diverse pool but Sami hit zero in many.

And that is about it that anyone was arguing, but you keep up this claim that you can find more close populations in West Europe?







Settle down I didn't curse at the Finnish people just I know they are genetically connected with Sami or Saami whatever you want to call them. The high amount of U5b1b1a and V in both is enough evidence to say there is a genetic connection. I guess Estonian is more related to Finnish than Sami language but still they are genetically connected. When comparing the to other Europeans a lot of times they are united in their differences. I will remember they are not the same people and not always say Finnish-Sami. Just last year I had no idea there were so many strange ethnic groups in Europe like Uralic and Turks.

Maybe start listening and studying and not claiming you know them.







The reason why R1b L11 is connected with Indo Europeans is it dominates Germanic Italo Celts, is absent from Neolithic west Europe but pops up in Bell beaker Germany at ~2,500BC, and is estimated to be 5,000 years old and rapidly spread until 3,000 years ago. It arrived and spread literally at the exact times Indo European languages in west Europe probably did. Those are pretty good reasons to connect it with Indo Europeans. Like I said before Y DNA of the Yamna people is probably mainly gone from Russia so there is a possibility R1b L23 did migrate from there and eventfully made it to west Europe.

Do you notice how you do that?

You fit in R1b as possible Yamna lineage, you claim to know what can be IE lineages and what cant.

[Fire Haired]

I understand Sami and Finnish are two different people who have mixed. I have opinion's on what lineages descend from Indo European migrations, that's not a crime. I am not trying to force my agenda just trying to figure things out. Ukko do you live in Finland but know Finnish and English? I have had Spanish and Latin class in school learning a second language seems impossible, but I am planning to try to learn Cornish since I am 25% Cornish.

[Äijä]

I understand Sami and Finnish are two different people who have mixed. I have opinion's on what lineages descend from Indo European migrations, that's not a crime. I am not trying to force my agenda just trying to figure things out. Ukko do you live in Finland but know Finnish and English? I have had Spanish and Latin class in school learning a second language seems impossible, but I am planning to try to learn Cornish since I am 25% Cornish.

But you should still clearly state they are theories based on little information at this time.
I like reading good speculation, I also have possible theories in mind for some lineages but have not posted them.

Yes I live in Finland, my English is rusty, learned it living in England as a child.
You dont really need them as you speak the lingua franca of our time. ;)

[Fire Haired]

But you should still clearly state they are theories based on little information at this time.
I like reading good speculation, I also have possible theories in mind for some lineages but have not posted them.

Yes I live in Finland, my English is rusty, learned it living in England as a child.
You dont really need them as you speak the lingua franca of our time. ;)

There is nothing wrong with posting what's on my mind, I am not threating anyone's life. I am very lucky to have English as my first language it is like the new Latin. It is much harder to research on the internet if English is not your first language. I still want to learn Cornish though because I am 25% Cornish, my Y DNA is from Britons, and it is one of the last Celtic languages left. In America almost all the European people are a mixture of many different European ethnic groups and all the immigrants languages became basically extinct. There is really nothing ethnic about me and my family. It is hard to imagine a nation where everyone has the same blood and has lived there for thousands of years. When your a mutt you cant really claim to be any ethnicity.