New DNA evidence that Caucasians came to America 15,000-20,000ybp

[Fire Haired]

Native Americans are in the Mongoloid sub group of the Oceania Mongoloid race read this link it explains all Human races http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84361-All-Human-Races-According-to-DNA

but 1-5% of NAtive Americans in north east north America have a Caucasin mtDNA haplogrop X this haplogroup is only 30,000 years old the Caucasian and Mongoloids are very unrelated in DNA Mongoloids are just about as related to sub sahren Africans as they are to Caucasians so there is no way native Americans got this from Mongoloids some how they got it from Caucasians these Native Americans have subclade X2a and X2g the only no non native Americans have X2q but some Galilean Druze in Isreal have X2a

here is a map of mtDNA X
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG/300px-Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG

mtDNA X2 is associated with last ice age expansions 20,000-22,000ybphttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHaplogr oup_X_(mtDNA)&ei=74bFUYzsO8buyAGguIGwCg&usg=AFQjCNGabcDZMUsV6NhppESb6jCwvoj5YQ
i could not find a age for mtDNA X2a and X2g but many articles calimed that it would have migrated to north America from the mid east about 20,000-22,000ybp
http://x2a-mtdna.blogspot.com/2013/01/x2a-mtdna-in-galilee-northern-israel.html the are defintley over 10,000-15,000 years old mtDNA X2 has been found in many Neolithic European remains http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/10/ancient-mtdna-haplogroup-x2-from.html

it does not matter how u but it some how mtDNA X2 was brought to North America probably around 15,000-20,000ybp it was defintley over 10,000ybp Caucasians from Europe or the mid east migrated to North America this completely shocks me i real really think there need to be more studies on this of when this group of Caucasians came to North America and where they came from because it defiantly happened

there has been a theory that Solutrean culture in southern France migrated to north America between 20,000-15,000ybp i always rejected this because they held this theory just because of a few spear heads that are 20,000 years old in north america and they say those spear heads are made from materiel that came from France and it looked like the spear heads solutrians made i rejected this theory because i did not think that was good enough evidence but now this X2 which almost defintley came to north America from Caucasins 15,00-20,000ybp i am almost convinced that they are correct it probably was not solutreans but it was some group of Caucasians from either Europe or the Mid east 15,000-20,000ybp maybe it was the solutreans this is beyond shocking news this means there may have been Europeans in North America 15,000-20,000 years ago but this does not maket Europeans the first Americans native Americans arrived 20,000-25,000 years ago

this is extremely shocking to me and the DNA proves Caucasians came to North America between 15,000-20,000ybp and they had to travel through Europe which probably means they where probably European

here is a drama documentary about solutrians migrating to North America 17,000ybp which would have been around the time Caucasian mtDNA X2 came to North America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kNTXCMYjwEk

i just want to say this to make it completely clear i am not putting down native Americans i am not trying to claim Europeans where the first Americans i am just going by this DNA which shows there had to be Caucasian inter marriage in north America probably 15,000-20,000ybp after native Americans already settled it and if Europeans where the first Americans or the first people in New England that still does not justify when Europeans took native American land

here are some 15,000 year old human cave carvings from LA mArche cave in western France if the Soulutreans really did migrate to North America this is what they would have looked like https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLa_Marc he_(cave)&ei=T4rFUdaLIoTsyQH4sYAg&usg=AFQjCNF1qdmbV5bjcBBxhbOIKMq265GVlA
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34948&d=1371898788http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34949&d=1371898799http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34950&d=1371898816http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34951&d=1371898830http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34951&d=1371898830http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/pi_images/2003-6-1-cavepaintings3.jpe

and here is a[I] 26,000- 28,000 year old carving of a Human face from mammoth ivory in Romania
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34953&d=1371900591

Here is a link ia made which shows DNA of all Human races
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84361-All-Human-Races-According-to-DNA

here are links with all Neolithic, Mesolithic, and Paleolithic DNA ever found in Spain and portuga which is identical to modern Europeans
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

here is DNA from middle and late Neolithic DNA from Germany
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84012-Middle-to-late-Neolithic-6-625-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German

DNA hair color and eye color from bronze and Iron age Indo Iranians in south Siberia and central Asia
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83954-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-eye-color-of-ancient-Indo-Iranians-from-3-800-1-900ybp

this is about the Y DNA of Rome and the fact that they spread mid eastern and north African DNA not European
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-and-European

this is a map of with Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color of pre Indo European Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83933-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-and-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe-6-000-8-000-ybp

[Artek]

Maybe they took viking X2 female as a prisoner xD

[Fire Haired]

Maybe they took viking X2 female as a prisoner xD

no vikings had X2a teh only non native Americans to have it are isrealli jews and i read what scientists say tehy said X came to north america probably 15,000-20,000ybphttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanswers.yahoo.com%2Fquestion%2Fin dex%3Fqid%3D20081218204943AA974Vy&ei=a4jHUbH1KKSxygGikoCQBg&usg=AFQjCNEC0VlaLfT8EclyvsVX5i2f_Ni27Q and since it is mainly in eastern north america i think it could have come from europe

and X2g is only in native americans and the same native americans that have X2 also have Y DNA R1 but not R1a or R1b orignally R1 was mongloid in north eastern asia i wonder if r1 mongloids inter married with X2 caucasins in central asia 20,000ybp then those monmgloid migrated to north america with R1 and X2 and then caucasins in europe and mid east had R1 then eventuality Indo Europeans spread it all over europe and asia

[Artek]

no vikings had X2a teh only non native Americans to have it are isrealli jews and i read what scientists say tehy said X came to north america probably 15,000-20,000ybphttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanswers.yahoo.com%2Fquestion%2Fin dex%3Fqid%3D20081218204943AA974Vy&ei=a4jHUbH1KKSxygGikoCQBg&usg=AFQjCNEC0VlaLfT8EclyvsVX5i2f_Ni27Q and since it is mainly in eastern north america i think it could have come from europe

and X2g is only in native americans and the same native americans that have X2 also have Y DNA R1 but not R1a or R1b orignally R1 was mongloid in north eastern asia i wonder if r1 mongloids inter married with X2 caucasins in central asia 20,000ybp then those monmgloid migrated to north america with R1 and X2 and then caucasins in europe and mid east had R1 then eventuality Indo Europeans spread it all over europe and asia
I was kidding ;D. Yes, that must be connected with R1* haplogroup.

[Roy]

This is not any evidence ...

[Steven]

We killed our own people. :picard1:

[Fire Haired]

We killed our own people. :picard1:
what are u trying to say

[highnoblebenlutfi]

I do not think he knows

[highnoblebenlutfi]

no vikings had X2a teh only non native Americans to have it are isrealli jews and i read what scientists say tehy said X came to north america probably 15,000-20,000ybphttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanswers.yahoo.com%2Fquestion%2Fin dex%3Fqid%3D20081218204943AA974Vy&ei=a4jHUbH1KKSxygGikoCQBg&usg=AFQjCNEC0VlaLfT8EclyvsVX5i2f_Ni27Q and since it is mainly in eastern north america i think it could have come from europe

and X2g is only in native americans and the same native americans that have X2 also have Y DNA R1 but not R1a or R1b orignally R1 was mongloid in north eastern asia i wonder if r1 mongloids inter married with X2 caucasins in central asia 20,000ybp then those monmgloid migrated to north america with R1 and X2 and then caucasins in europe and mid east had R1 then eventuality Indo Europeans spread it all over europe and asia

[highnoblebenlutfi]

Well said

[Anglojew]

Awesome thread, thanks.

[Mortimer]

well maybe but only pockets and they didnt survived for thousands of years like indians did, when columbus discovered new world there were no indigenous white americans there, right? it is just speculation, but fact is red skin are indigenous americans

[Lábaru]

well maybe but only pockets and they didnt survived for thousands of years like indians did, when columbus discovered new world there were no indigenous white americans there, right? it is just speculation, but fact is red skin are indigenous americans

More like bronze skin, regardless of the movies, you have seen a Native American with red skin color as a sunburned European?

[Fire Haired]

well actulley i have seen reddish skin in full bloodied native americans and some Mexicans. There is a reason why they where known as redskins. Some pacfic islanders and east asian people will have reddish skin like native americans

[tamilgangster]

Alot of the caucasoid DNA probably came from the mal'ta people in siberia

[Fire Haired]

Alot of the caucasoid DNA probably came from the mal'ta people in siberia

That is definitely possibly, Mal'ta buy is a 24,000 year old Siberian who had west Eurasian and native American like ancestry. Why do you like posting on my old threads?

[tamilgangster]

That is definitely possibly, Mal'ta buy is a 24,000 year old Siberian who had west Eurasian and native American like ancestry. Why do you like posting on my old threads?

Because they are interesting

[Fire Haired]

Because they are interesting

The reason I asked is because I am kind of ashamed of my old threads. I throw out unchecked and unorganized information but I still did learn a lot.

[tamilgangster]

Those threads were before the discovery of tha malt'a boy, i have old threads like tjat on anthroscape, but i gained new knowledge. Change in opinion is not an indicator of trolling its an indicator of new knowledge

[Fire Haired]

Those threads were before the discovery of tha malt'a boy, i have old threads like tjat on anthroscape, but i gained new knowledge. Change in opinion is not an indicator of trolling its an indicator of new knowledge

I have learned how to take information more accurately than before. Also I liked controversy and probably seemed a little raciest to some people. I knew I did and it took time for me to stop. I have over 80 threads you can look at.

[Longbowman]

.

...perhaps the haplogroups entered America after the era of contemporary European contact...

20,000 years ago an ice sheet covered northern Europe, there's simply no physical way any Europeans could have reached America over the Atlantic.

Far more plausible, but still not nearly as plausible as the post-colombian or post-Viking thing I just mentioned, is that some proto-Europids were part of the first native migratory waves.

Either way I plain doubt this. R1b spread across Britain from zero in 1,000BC to 80% of the population today and probably since the first century AD so the minor spread of European haplogroups in the area that's been in European contact the longest in a people that often 'adopted' or kidnapped Europeans/got raped by European/dated Europeans is incredibly unsurprising.

[Pure ja]

...perhaps the haplogroups entered America after the era of contemporary European contact...

20,000 years ago an ice sheet covered northern Europe, there's simply no physical way any Europeans could have reached America over the Atlantic.


If seal-hunters could go hunting on sea-ice for a week or two, then it was also possible to travel over sea-ice. 50km per day was easy with skis or snow shoes.
During medieval times, when the Baltic Sea got frozen over, traffic routes over sea ice were opened up. The longest I know was 430 km long ice road from Saaremaa to Lübeck.

The most dangerous threat in north Atlantic were polar bears.




Far more plausible, but still not nearly as plausible as the post-colombian or post-Viking thing I just mentioned, is that some proto-Europids were part of the first native migratory waves.


Yes.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]If seal-hunters could go hunting on sea-ice for a week or two, then it was also possible to travel over sea-ice. 50km per day was easy with skis or snow shoes.

They didn't have skis 20,000 years ago. Do you know how long it would take to talk 5,000 miles, minimum? Too long. It didn't happen, period.


During medieval times, when the Baltic Sea got frozen over, traffic routes over sea ice were opened up. The longest I know was 430 km long ice road from Saaremaa to Lübeck.


430km is about 5% of the distance over the Atlantic except during Medieval times the level of technology was immeasurably higher AND they knew at the end of that 430km would be a town. The Solutreans had no clue what was at the end of the endless wall of ice.


The most dangerous threat in north Atlantic were polar bears.


Actually it would be cold. And the fact there'd be very little in the way of food. It's not plausible.

Basically it definitely never happened. Sorry.

[Pure ja]

They didn't have skis 20,000 years ago.


Making skis is not rocket science. Even less so for snow shoes.
We simply do not know the time depth.



Do you know how long it would take to talk 5,000 miles, minimum? It didn't happen, period.


Only 2000 miles straight over the ocean in my book.
About speed? Even contemporary komi hunters cover 25-50 km per day over deep snow, for a fortnight.
At 25 km per day it only takes 130 days to cross the Atlantic.

Seal hunters on ice covered similar daily distances.



It didn't happen, period.


I am 99% sure it happened, but not in sizable quantities.



430km is about 5% of the distance over the Atlantic except during Medieval times the level of technology was immeasurably higher AND they knew at the end of that 430km would be a town.


No, the medieval tech was not considerably higher. Bone harpoons and slings were good enough. If you could take on a whale during the stone age, you could certainly do a seal many times over.
The distance is irrelevant if one lives the lifestyle.




The Solutreans had no clue what was at the end of the endless wall of ice.


I am sure some of them had a clue and stories went around.
But it was not practical to migrate in great numbers.




Actually it would be cold. And the fact there'd be very little in the way of food. It's not plausible.


Cold? No more than elsewhere above the snow. Snow is also a good insulator.
As to food - competition with the polar bears.
Also seal hunters usually have their light boats with them, which enables to catch fish in ice leads.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]Only 2000 miles straight over the ocean in my book.

Well, it varies, but from contemporary Basque Country to modern day Carolina, as per Solutrean theory, is around 3,000 miles.


About speed? Even contemporary komi hunters cover 25-50 km per day over deep snow, for a fortnight.
At 25 km per day it only takes 130 days to cross the Atlantic.

Usain Bolt can run 100 metres in 9.69 seconds; he can't run 100,000 in 969. Even so, 130 days is way to much because, like I said, they had no idea there was land at the other end, so they had to reason to walk across the ice sheet, which is a ridiculous presupposition anyway, as it didn't happen anywhere else, particularly seeing as there was no food OR WATER. There may have been salt water, but even if there had been freshwater it would have been freezing to the point you'd have to eat it and the energy required to melt and metabolise it would have outweighed the benefits of consumption.


Seal hunters on ice covered similar daily distances.


No they don't.


I am 99% sure it happened, but not in sizable quantities.


No it didn't.


No, the medieval tech was not considerably higher. Bone harpoons and slings were good enough. If you could take on a whale during the stone age, you could certainly do a seal many times over.


Perhaps but you're assuming they seal-colony-hopped across the Atlantic which is ridiculous as seals live off coasts.


The distance is irrelevant if one lives the lifestyle.


No one in recorded history has 'lived the lifestyle' of iceberg hopping. Even Inuit hunters, who live in an area where they have to hunt megafauna, go on kayaking trips for a few days and return to dry land.


I am sure some of them had a clue and stories went around.


This is ridiculous. Until bloody Colombus no one else in Europe 'had a clue' and 'sent around stories.' Even the Norse were surprised to spot Greenland.


But it was not practical to migrate in great numbers.


It wasn't practical to do it in small numbers either.


Cold? No more than elsewhere above the snow. Snow is also a good insulator.


Why not just stay on dry, ice-free land?


As to food - competition with the polar bears.


Sorry, what? Competition with polar bears what? Where? Polar bears also aren't known for not living on dry land.


Also seal hunters usually have their light boats with them, which enables to catch fish in ice leads.

Yes, they are. What is your point?

Here are some reasons why no one crossed the frozen Atlantic:

1) No/very little food
2) No fresh liquid water
3) No idea there was land at the other end of the ice
4) No reason to leave Europe
5) No evidence of necessary technology (Kayaks have only existed for 1,000 years, for example; oceangoing vessels have only existed for 3,000)
6) No genetic evidence of them in the Americas
7) Too cold to survive without fires - and you can't light a fire with nothing to burn on and ice floe.

[KidMulat]

Isn't it incorrect to state Caucasians came to the New World?

Wouldn't be more like "the evidence shows Siberians with West Asian ancestry came to the New World."?

[Longbowman]

Isn't it incorrect to state Caucasians came to the New World?

Wouldn't be more like "the evidence shows Siberians with West Asian ancestry came to the New World."?

Not if you're a white American who for some reason needs some now-dead Europeans to have been the first on the Continental United States to validate their self-image.

[Pure ja]

[QUOTE=Pure ja;2219316]
Well, it varies, but from contemporary Basque Country to modern day Carolina, as per Solutrean theory, is around 3,000 miles.


During ice ages, Newfoundland extended far east.




Usain Bolt can run 100 metres in 9.69 seconds; he can't run 100,000 in 969.


Human body is certainly capable of physical exercise for 60000 secs per day, EVERY day.
Maybe you should spend some time with komi hunters while they are still around? They cover those daily distances ALONE, without a dogsled. In a group and with a dogsled it would be much easier still. And dogs were domesticated by that time.



Even so, 130 days is way to much because, like I said, they had no idea there was land at the other end, so they had to reason to walk across the ice sheet, which is a ridiculous presupposition anyway, as it didn't happen anywhere else, particularly seeing as there was no food OR WATER. There may have been salt water, but even if there had been freshwater it would have been freezing to the point you'd have to eat it and the energy required to melt and metabolise it would have outweighed the benefits of consumption.


Such travel would not have been practical at mid-winter. At spring or mid-summer there would be plenty of light and also plenty of meltwater with no salt.
Also one wouldn't have to walk most of the way, since one could use their boats near the sea-ice edge (actually through the mesh of ice floes). If you want to, you can forget the seals altogether and just go fishing.



No one in recorded history has 'lived the lifestyle' of iceberg hopping. Even Inuit hunters, who live in an area where they have to hunt megafauna, go on kayaking trips for a few days and return to dry land.


No tribe as a whole. But certainly some individuals and small groups.
Also, the ancestors of saamis did hop and did experience a genetical bottleneck.




This is ridiculous. Until bloody Colombus no one else in Europe 'had a clue' and 'sent around stories.' Even the Norse were surprised to spot Greenland.


Estonian national epic Kalevipoeg does write of creatures called 'peninukid' and of their land. So there were definitely stories, there were many stories. But we don't know how many depicted greenlanders, if any.




It wasn't practical to do it in small numbers either.


Some do it for curiosity.



Why not just stay on dry, ice-free land?


Why does anyone live outside of the tropics?



Sorry, what? Competition with polar bears what? Where? Polar bears also aren't known for not living on dry land.


Polar bears are known for being more than a thousand kilometers from dry lands.



Here are some reasons why no one crossed the frozen Atlantic:

5) No evidence of necessary technology (Kayaks have only existed for 1,000 years, for example; oceangoing vessels have only existed for 3,000)


Just look at stone age Karelian rock paintings - of catching whales.



6) No genetic evidence of them in the Americas


That is still under investigation.



7) Too cold to survive without fires - and you can't light a fire with nothing to burn on and ice floe.

Too cold for contemporary city people.
The more urgent problem was eating raw fish and raw meat - whether one could have such a diet for 130 days. Of course with seal oil or whale oil, perhaps that wouldn't be a problem (I am not an expert on that).

[Pure ja]

http://etv.err.ee/?0562379

"Eesti Rahvaluule Arhiivist leiab näiteks järgmisi tekste:
E 21703/4 < Pilistvere khk., Kõo m. - Hans Keller (1895): Koerakoonlased
Koerakoonlased elasid vanal ajal maa peal seal, kus taevas ja maa ühte läksid. Vana eestlaste arvamise järele oli maa kui tasane laud ja taevas kui kumm üle tõmmatud ja nõnda pidi siis taevas nagu ta meie silma paistab, ümberringi maaga kokku käima kui müits, mis tooli peal seisab. Koerakoonlased elasid maa ääre peal suure klaasmäe taga"

Koerakoonlased = dog-muzzle-headed creatures
Those creatures lived at the end of the world behind the great glass (=ice) mountain.

ADD. Such description fits either to the ancestors of saamis or to greenlanders or to some other unknown group.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]During ice ages, Newfoundland extended far east.


It was covered in ice.


Human body is certainly capable of physical exercise for 60000 secs per day, EVERY day.
Maybe you should spend some time with komi hunters while they are still around? They cover those daily distances ALONE, without a dogsled. In a group and with a dogsled it would be much easier still. And dogs were domesticated by that time.


You're wrong. Everything you wrote there was wrong. Especially about the dogs being domesticated and used as sledders. It's even possible dogs weren't domesticated until 15,000 years ago, but even if they had reached Western Europe, dog sledges weren't in use until the first millennium AD. There are no remains of dog sledges anywhere in the world from before then.


Such travel would not have been practical at mid-winter. At spring or mid-summer there would be plenty of light and also plenty of meltwater with no salt.


Even you think it would have taken most of the year.


Also one wouldn't have to walk most of the way, since one could use their boats near the sea-ice edge (actually through the mesh of ice floes). If you want to, you can forget the seals altogether and just go fishing.


'Just go fishing.' How to cook the fish? Can you live on fish alone? Do you not need vegetables, too? It is not possible to survive solely on meat products. We are omnivorous.


No tribe as a whole. But certainly some individuals and small groups.


Didn't happen.


Also, the ancestors of saamis did hop and did experience a genetical bottleneck.

Didn't happen and also not relevant.


Estonian national epic Kalevipoeg does write of creatures called 'peninukid' and of their land. So there were definitely stories, there were many stories. But we don't know how many depicted greenlanders, if any.


Yes. Your national epic is certainly a reference to the Americas; and how cool that the only tales exist in Estonia, not the actual Atlantic facade from where the boaters would have left. Interesting.


Some do it for curiosity.


You must be joking. Why risk the life of yourself - and your family - just to travel across the ice? You're being ridiculous. How come no one else did it until Colombus, if it was that easy?


Why does anyone live outside of the tropics?


They're too hot and not arable and there are storms there. England is fertile. Ukraine is fertile. The Atlantic Ocean is not fertile.


Polar bears are known for being more than a thousand kilometers from dry lands.


No, polar bears are not.


Just look at stone age Karelian rock paintings - of catching whales.


I didn't say you couldn't catch whales.


That is still under investigation.


As is the theory that martians built Stonehenge.


Too cold for contemporary city people.


Human tolerance hasn't changed.


The more urgent problem was eating raw fish and raw meat - whether one could have such a diet for 130 days. Of course with seal oil or whale oil, perhaps that wouldn't be a problem (I am not an expert on that).

The most urgent problem was fresh water.

[Longbowman]

http://etv.err.ee/?0562379

"Eesti Rahvaluule Arhiivist leiab näiteks järgmisi tekste:
E 21703/4 < Pilistvere khk., Kõo m. - Hans Keller (1895): Koerakoonlased
Koerakoonlased elasid vanal ajal maa peal seal, kus taevas ja maa ühte läksid. Vana eestlaste arvamise järele oli maa kui tasane laud ja taevas kui kumm üle tõmmatud ja nõnda pidi siis taevas nagu ta meie silma paistab, ümberringi maaga kokku käima kui müits, mis tooli peal seisab. Koerakoonlased elasid maa ääre peal suure klaasmäe taga"

Koerakoonlased = dog-muzzle-headed creatures
Those creatures lived at the end of the world behind the great glass (=ice) mountain.

ADD. Such description fits either to the ancestors of saamis or to greenlanders or to some other unknown group.

So many people look like dogs, yes.

It seems to refer to people who lived beyond the Urals. Not in Greenland. Estonia isn't even near Greenland. Even we don't have legends that refer to Greenlanders.


1) No/very little food
2) No fresh liquid water
3) No idea there was land at the other end of the ice
4) No reason to leave Europe

Refute these.

[Pure ja]

So many people look like dogs, yes.

It seems to refer to people who lived beyond the Urals. Not in Greenland. Estonia isn't even near Greenland. Even we don't have legends that refer to Greenlanders.

There are no glass mountains in or behind the Urals.
The only contemporary glass mountain is the Greenland glacier. There used to be the Baltoscandian ice shield and the Laurentide one.




Refute these.

I already did. Perhaps I will gain.

[Pure ja]

Also, Urals is hardly the end of the world, at least for finno-ugrians.

[Pure ja]

It was covered in ice.


About as much as Greenland. Hint - people are living on the coastline there. Have been for thousands of years.




You're wrong. Everything you wrote there was wrong. Especially about the dogs being domesticated and used as sledders. It's even possible dogs weren't domesticated until 15,000 years ago, but even if they had reached Western Europe, dog sledges weren't in use until the first millennium AD. There are no remains of dog sledges anywhere in the world from before then.


Recent news has it that dogs have been domesticated for 30 000 years and the origin looks likely to have been Europe.



Even you think it would have taken most of the year.


4 months is not most of the year.




'Just go fishing.' How to cook the fish? Can you live on fish alone? Do you not need vegetables, too? It is not possible to survive solely on meat products. We are omnivorous.


You can try sea-weed. Or you can consult arctic circle native peoples.




Didn't happen and also not relevant.


The ancestors of saamis did hop to the far north of the Scandinavian peninsula - behind the receding ice glacier. It happened. It happened. It happened. And they happened to be related to solutreans.




Yes. Your national epic is certainly a reference to the Americas; and how cool that the only tales exist in Estonia, not the actual Atlantic facade from where the boaters would have left. Interesting.


The baltic-finnic realm also includes sea saamis and White sea finnics.
The sea trip of Kalevipoeg to the end of the world might be based on viking stories, but the stories of 'koerakoonlased' and 'peninukid' might be much older than that. I can't prove that these stories had anything to do with America. But you can't prove the opposite either. And Occam's razor gives mostly the wrong answer even while being a sensible approach.




You must be joking. Why risk the life of yourself - and your family - just to travel across the ice? You're being ridiculous. How come no one else did it until Colombus, if it was that easy?


Funny, I see lots of curious persons doing it all the time. Even estonians crossing the Arctic ocean and Greenland and Antarctica on foot.
It might have been 1 per 10 generations, but that would translate into once per 250 years. How much do you know about Estonian arctic explorers anyway? Exactly my point!




They're too hot and not arable and there are storms there. England is fertile. Ukraine is fertile. The Atlantic Ocean is not fertile.


Agriculture is irrelevant. People lived in the far north long before agriculture.
Humans are adapted to hot climates - it is why we do not have fur and why we have sweating glands. Humans are adapted to run hours under a tropical sun. Born to run. And then there is the Iceman running barefoot and with only short pants 20km in -20-30C.


http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=BpKXE2lm4t0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N_9HZRVl-g



No, polar bears are not.


They have been. Not only that, but they have been swimming 800 km nonstop.




Human tolerance hasn't changed.


During which period?

I have experienced -120-140C in a cold chamber for 4-5 minutes. But I couldn't pull an iceman or a samoyed or a tibetan monk.
However I very much doubt that the erectus leaving Africa had such abilities at once.



The most urgent problem was fresh water.

That was the least of the problems.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]About as much as Greenland. Hint - people are living on the coastline there. Have been for thousands of years.

No, Greenland has an ice-free coast. During the Ice Age it didn't and neither did Newfoundland or Canada or northern Europe.


Recent news has it that dogs have been domesticated for 30 000 years and the origin looks likely to have been Europe.


Possibly, but even so the origin would have been eastern Europe, but they still hadn't invented dog sleds, so the point is moot.


4 months is not most of the year.


You think people could walk 3,000 miles over ice in 4 months?


You can try sea-weed. Or you can consult arctic circle native peoples.


You can't eat sea-weed and sea-weed doesn't grow in the middle of the ocean at the top of the ocean.


The ancestors of saamis did hop to the far north of the Scandinavian peninsula - behind the receding ice glacier. It happened. It happened. It happened. And they happened to be related to solutreans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#History they've been there 5,000 years. No they didn't.


The baltic-finnic realm also includes sea saamis and White sea finnics.
The sea trip of Kalevipoeg to the end of the world might be based on viking stories, but the stories of 'koerakoonlased' and 'peninukid' might be much older than that. I can't prove that these stories had anything to do with America. But you can't prove the opposite either. And Occam's razor gives mostly the wrong answer even while being a sensible approach.

I can't prove there aren't invisible unicorns in the Queen's bedroom, either. I'm still going to assume there aren't any.



Funny, I see lots of curious persons doing it all the time. Even estonians crossing the Arctic ocean and Greenland and Antarctica on foot.
It might have been 1 per 10 generations, but that would translate into once per 250 years. How much do you know about Estonian arctic explorers anyway? Exactly my point!

That's because those people know there's something on the other side. They're taking a marathon to somewhere. The ancient Europeans had no idea there was a landmass to the west - and how would they?


Agriculture is irrelevant. People lived in the far north long before agriculture.

Fertile land produces food whether or not you cultivate it because it produces natural vegetation which in turn increases the size of herds.


Humans are adapted to hot climates - it is why we do not have fur and why we have sweating glands. Humans are adapted to run hours under a tropical sun. Born to run. And then there is the Iceman running barefoot and with only short pants 20km in -20-30C.


We are adapted for a range of temperatures, including cold ones, hence our ability to get goosebumps.


They have been. Not only that, but they have been swimming 800 km nonstop.


They're polar bears. Not people. Whilst they can swim great distances, they can't live in the ocean - only on dry land.


During which period?

I have experienced -120-140C in a cold chamber for 4-5 minutes. But I couldn't pull an iceman or a samoyed or a tibetan monk.

Since the advent of Sapiens 200,000 years ago.


However I very much doubt that the erectus leaving Africa had such abilities at once.


He had the ability to develop those abilities.



That was the least of the problems.

Hint: humans need a lot of water every day to survive.

[Harkonnen]

You think people could walk 3,000 miles over ice in 4 months

Sounds plausible to me. Of course a lot depends what were the exact weather conditions and terrain. And what was there exactly to hunt. You have to remember that the day is very long if you use it and these guys were of course born and bread to that kind of lifestyle.

Years ago I did some traveling myself and the longest distances I could cover in a day were +70 kilometers. It's not even hard at all when you get used to it.

[Longbowman]

Sounds plausible to me. Of course a lot depends what were the exact weather conditions and terrain. And what was there exactly to hunt. You have to remember that the day is very long if you use it and these guys were of course born and bread to that kind of lifestyle.

Years ago I did some traveling myself and the longest distances I could cover in a day were +70 kilometers. It's not even hard at all when you get used to it.

You couldn't do it every day, though.

Also, how would they get water, and why would they attempt the voyage? They didn't know there was land at the end of the ice. For all they knew there's be nothing but sea for a hundred thousand miles.

[Harkonnen]

You couldn't do it every day, though.



I sure could do it every day. You have to remember that after your bones, muscles and tendons get used to it, walking in itself is very energy efficient and the day is very long. The biggest bummer there would be of course the utter boredom depending on the views, fex lots of snowsnow and snow -> boring.

[Pure ja]

I sure could do it every day. You have to remember that after your bones, muscles and tendons get used to it, walking in itself is very energy efficient and the day is very long. The biggest bummer there would be of course the utter boredom depending on the views, fex lots of snowsnow and snow -> boring.

It is actually much harder to stand still or to sit all the time, instead of walking all the time.

[Longbowman]

*sigh*

It never happened. There is no evidence at all to suggest it happened. The obvious reasoning behind 'self identified Iroquois and Cherokee having European YDNA' is that it happened since 1600. Are these clades even separate from the exact type of clades found in Western Europe; ie, clades that have developed since the breakup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans 5,000 years ago - and thus 11,000 years after the alleged Solutrean migration? I'm guessing no, they're mainly R1b-L21 and other typical Western European ones - but not Western European ones that have been there any longer than 3,000 years. During the Solutrean period R was confined to west central Asia.

[Harkonnen]

*sigh*

It never happened. There is no evidence at all to suggest it happened. The obvious reasoning behind 'self identified Iroquois and Cherokee having European YDNA' is that it happened since 1600. Are these clades even separate from the exact type of clades found in Western Europe; ie, clades that have developed since the breakup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans 5,000 years ago - and thus 11,000 years after the alleged Solutrean migration? I'm guessing no, they're mainly R1b-L21 and other typical Western European ones - but not Western European ones that have been there any longer than 3,000 years. During the Solutrean period R was confined to west central Asia.

Yeah that's another issue, I was just replying to that travel part, whether it was plausible. Yes I more or less agree with you here.

[Longbowman]

As a secondary question, a) why would you assume, from an objective perspective, that R1 signifies ancient Europeans at all? It didn't exist in Europeans until the Kurgan Migrations. It did exist in Western Central Asia, hence this: http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/ which is the idea East Asians and Central/West Asians (including Caucasids) were the founder populations in the Americas - but it does not support the idea that people crossed the Atlantic as most clades in Europe were, at the time, I, which doesn't feature in Native populations. Second question, why are there no European mtDNA clades in the Americas, if people crossed the ice?

[Pure ja]

You couldn't do it every day, though.


100 years back 70-year old grandmas used to walk to town 80km away and the next day they would walk back. And don't say it didn't happen. It happened routinely.




Also, how would they get water, and why would they attempt the voyage? They didn't know there was land at the end of the ice. For all they knew there's be nothing but sea for a hundred thousand miles.

There is ample sun during the bright half-year to melt snow and ice.
And if meltwater is not readily available on the spot, one could use a dark cloth and/or small pieces of dark gravel. Don't be so narrow-minded.

[Longbowman]

Yeah that's another issue, I was just replying to that travel part, whether it was plausible. Yes I more or less agree with you here.

For the record I don't think the journey's impossible, my main argument is no one would have tried to undergo it as a) they had no reason to leave Europe but more importantly, b) they didn't know that America exist - where did they think they were heading? Why walk 30 miles a day to get to nowhere?

[Longbowman]

100 years back 70-year old grandmas used to walk to town 80km away and the next day they would walk back. And don't say it didn't happen. It happened routinely.




There is ample sun during the bright half-year to melt snow and ice.
And if meltwater is not readily available on the spot, one could use a dark cloth and/or small pieces of dark gravel. Don't be so narrow-minded.

Even if we were to assume there was freshwater ice there, please explain my more recent genetic arguments.

I'm not saying walking that's impossible - I've done it - I'm just saying you wouldn't have, there was no reason to, and you wouldn't have been able to do it on an ice floe.

[Pure ja]

*sigh*

It never happened. There is no evidence at all to suggest it happened. The obvious reasoning behind 'self identified Iroquois and Cherokee having European YDNA' is that it happened since 1600. Are these clades even separate from the exact type of clades found in Western Europe; ie, clades that have developed since the breakup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans 5,000 years ago - and thus 11,000 years after the alleged Solutrean migration? I'm guessing no, they're mainly R1b-L21 and other typical Western European ones - but not Western European ones that have been there any longer than 3,000 years. During the Solutrean period R was confined to west central Asia.

As Aurinko also admitted, the genetic evidence is so far lacking.
I even admitted at the very beginning (with "Yes.") that I tend to agree with you on this. Whatever few individuals made the journey, it was likely not enough to significantly impact American populations.

But lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
The mere fact that you are questioning here implies that it is an open question.

As to lack of geographical knowledge, I believe that stone age peoples were more knowledgeable in planetary geography than ordinary christians in the middle ages. Knowledge of precession requires observations spanning at least 26 000 years, probably at least twice that. Once you understand that the Earth is round (not a big leap for sky observers) and you have crudely measured the change of length of day on different latitudes AND you have heard of stories of a continent to the east of Siberia via mammoth steppe peoples, you can roughly guess how far the land is. The first voyage might even have been from America to Europe.

[Longbowman]

As Aurinko also admitted, the genetic evidence is so far lacking.
I even admitted at the very beginning (with "Yes.") that I tend to agree with you on this. Whatever few individuals made the journey, it was likely not enough to significantly impact American populations.

But lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
The mere fact that you are questioning here implies that it is an open question.

As to lack of geographical knowledge, I believe that stone age peoples were more knowledgeable in planetary geography than ordinary christians in the middle ages. Knowledge of precession requires observations spanning at least 26 000 years, probably at least twice that. Once you understand that the Earth is round (not a big leap for sky observers) and you have crudely measured the change of length of day on different latitudes AND you have heard of stories of a continent to the east of Siberia via mammoth steppe peoples, you can roughly guess how far the land is. The first voyage might even have been from America to Europe.

No individual made the journey. Zero. None. There is no evidence to suggest they did. Everyone always knew the Earth is round, but they would not have heard of a continent to the east. Why? Because Solutrean theory has the Solutreans going to to the West 2,000 years before the Native Americans did.

[Pure ja]

No individual made the journey. Zero. None. There is no evidence to suggest they did. Everyone always knew the Earth is round, but they would not have heard of a continent to the east. Why? Because Solutrean theory has the Solutreans going to to the West 2,000 years before the Native Americans did.

Maybe we should discuss this again a year or two years later?

As an example, the oldest evidence so far for the first post-glacial human habitation in Estonia dates to about 11000 years ago. The oldest evidence for mammoths in post-glacial Estonia is about 11500 years ago. And the oldest evidence for forests in post-glacial Estonia dates to about 13000 years ago. Based on your logic, it would be logical to assume that even though there were forests and mammoths in Estonia, humans followed 2000 years later. And perhaps you could leave out unicorns this time (the real unicorns dwelled the seas and were called narwhals).

[Longbowman]

Maybe we should discuss this again a year or two years later?

As an example, the oldest evidence so far for the first post-glacial human habitation in Estonia dates to about 11000 years ago. The oldest evidence for mammoths in post-glacial Estonia is about 11500 years ago. And the oldest evidence for forests in post-glacial Estonia dates to about 13000 years ago. Based on your logic, it would be logical to assume that even though there were forests and mammoths in Estonia, humans followed 2000 years later. And perhaps you could leave out unicorns this time (the real unicorns dwelled the seas and were called narwhals).

You're stopped making sense. By the way unicorns are though to be based on reports of rhinos. You're not answering any of my genetic points, or my point about how the New World hadn't been colonised by the Solutrean period, or why anyone would leave Europe - your argument basically appears to be, 'because it is technically possible, it must have been done.' Which is a terrible argument.

[Pure ja]

You're not answering any of my genetic points, or my point about how the New World hadn't been colonised by the Solutrean period, or why anyone would leave Europe - your argument basically appears to be, 'because it is technically possible, it must have been done.' Which is a terrible argument.

Having enough time, what could have happened, happened.
And I DID explain, you just don't want to listen nor understand.

2000 years is less than 15% of the timespan. I also showed with the Estonian example that 2000 years of missing evidence is not evidence of lack of habitation. If some proto-american individual (or more) happened to cross the Atlantic to Europe, then he had incentives to go back and solutreans had incentives to check his story. It is enough for one solutrean to make the journey to the New World to spread the knowledge and skills of solutrean stone techniques.

[Longbowman]

Having enough time, what could have happened, happened.
And I DID explain, you just don't want to listen nor understand.

2000 years is less than 15% of the timespan. I also showed with the Estonian example that 2000 years of missing evidence is not evidence of lack of habitation. If some proto-american individual (or more) happened to cross the Atlantic to Europe, then he had incentives to go back and solutreans had incentives to check his story. It is enough for one solutrean to make the journey to the New World to spread the knowledge and skills of solutrean stone techniques.

Explain, then, how people no longer knew about this land by the time of writing, 8,000 years ago.

But it's not relevant, because the genetics don't support you.