Classify blonde Sicilian

[Sikeliot]

from Caltanissetta

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/577153_4126785526432_1865325662_n.jpg

[Steven]

looks polish.

[Sikeliot]

Bump

[MissProvocateur]

His hair looks brown. But he looks kind of West Baltid with Alpine, his skin looks very tan, so maybe a tad Med.

[Sikeliot]

I've seen this look before and for some reason I would be inclined to guess him as Central European but more Slavic than Germanic.

[quaquaraqua]

He really looks Polish ahah he seems mainly alpine to me with norid influences.

More slavic to my eyes but not hardcore slavic

[Roy]

His nose look a bit off, doesn't look Polish to be honest. Norid + Alpine-Med (eyes area looks partially Mediterranean). Can pass as Austrian/North Italian probably.

[101DT]

Alpinoid-Noric

He comes from area that is mostly Lombard

[Roy]

Alpinoid-Noric

He comes from area that is mostly Lombard

Sikeliot said that he is Sicilian. Was there any kind of migration from there?

[quaquaraqua]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards_of_Sicily

[101DT]

The Lombards of Sicily;

Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.

William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.

http://u152.org/images/stories/Lombard_Settlements_in_Sicily_002_thumbnail.gif

~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

The Normans granted lands to the Lombards Christian/Latin Settlers and Mercenaries;

[Roy]

Why do you assume he is? :confused: (Just because of his looks?)

[101DT]

Why do you assume he is? :confused: (Just because of his looks?)

Location;
Caltanissetta = Enna vicinity = Lombardy Castle = Lombard settlements;

[Furnace]

Blonde?

[Sikeliot]

Enna is mostly ancient Greek descended.

He is not from a Lombard town. However most Lombard settlements being inland certainly explains why people say inland Sicilians are lighter.

[Roy]

Enna is mostly ancient Greek descended.

He is not from a Lombard town. However most Lombard settlements being inland certainly explains why people say inland Sicilians are lighter.

Does it mean that they didn't mixed (relatively at least) with other inhabitants for many centuries?

[101DT]

Enna is mostly ancient Greek descended.

He is not from a Lombard town. However most Lombard settlements being inland certainly explains why people say inland Sicilians are lighter.

The *Calta in Caltanissetta indicates it once being an Islamic town- *qal'at
So the Normans and Lombards must have stormed it anyway;

[Sikeliot]

Caltanissetta along with the rest of the western part of the island was historically part of the Carthaginian land, and then both Arabs and Normans were there. So there is a mixture of all of these people there.

Lombards in Sicily mostly stuck to themselves and spoke Gallo-Italic languages until not long ago, so most people who are of Lombard descent should know that they are even today.

[101DT]

Enna was never Greek
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/8526/sic1.png

Ancient Sicily =
Iberian Sicani - Ligurian Siculi - Trojan Elymians (Thucydides) - plus
Phoenician Colonies and Greek Colonies

[Sikeliot]

Enna was never Greek
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/8526/sic1.png

Ancient Sicily =
Iberian Sicani - Ligurian Siculi - Trojan Elymians (Thucydides) - plus
Phoenician Colonies and Greek Colonies


Greeks expanded into Enna. There are several towns there that were colonies of the Greek colonies already on Sicily such as Morgantina, Agira, etc.

Also a lot of towns in Enna were founded under the Byzantines, and built as Byzantine Greek towns.

It's also worth noting that, in general, all Sicilians genetically cluster together, so the division that once existed in ancient times has probably faded since people migrated back and forth. It's also worth noting that the inland regions are the least populated and so, most of the population lives along the coast in the places that were formerly Greek and Phoenician.

[Sikeliot]

Also about Enna, a y-dna study that used only Enna and Ragusa to represent eastern Sicily found that a very high amount of the paternal haplogroups in both places matched with Greece, signaling high degree of ancient Greek ancestry. The western half of the island, represented by Trapani and Palermo in the study, found more North/West European y-dna (I1, some types of R1b) as well as more pre-Greek Neolithic Levantine (meaning that for instance, J2 and E1b1b in Palermo matches with Levantine J2 and E1b1b and not Greek).

[101DT]

check this out -

Di Gaetano et al 2008 - Sicily DNA
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% whereas the contribution of North African populations is estimated to be around 6%.

there is a strong rift between West and East Sicily;

[Sikeliot]

check this out -

Di Gaetano et al 2008 - Sicily DNA
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% whereas the contribution of North African populations is estimated to be around 6%.

there is a strong rift between West and East Sicily;


That is the study I meant. Enna and Ragusa are the "east" sample for Sicily and they showed a strong Ancient Greek influence in their y-dna.

Whereas western Sicily shows more continental European influence as well as pre-Greek Neolithic Levantine, and a stronger similarity to Lebanon.

[101DT]

R1b in Sicily = Di Gaetano et al 2008

18.4% East Sicily
30.3% West Sicily

But the majority [11-16%] of R1b in East Sicily is - R1b-U152(S28) / Indo-European Umbrian / Keltic

Busby et al 2011; - (c) R1b-S28 (U152) in Europe
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png

R1b-U152 is most Common in North West Italy [Lombardy/Piedmont]
R1b-U152 = 32.2% - Boattini 2013

Boattini et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

[Sikeliot]

Eastern Sicily is mostly J2 and E1b1b.
Western Sicily is mostly R1b and J2.

[101DT]

That is the study I meant. Enna and Ragusa are the "east" sample for Sicily and they showed a strong Ancient Greek influence in their y-dna.

Whereas western Sicily shows more continental European influence as well as pre-Greek Neolithic Levantine, and a stronger similarity to Lebanon.

Yes,
historically the Normans settled into Western Sicily; hence 8.2% I1-M253; - Di Gaetano 2008
historically the Lombards settled into Eastern Sicily; hence 7.1% R1b-U152; - Boattini 2013
also to note the Swabians: Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013
Catania = important Staufer castle

Di Gaetano et al 2008 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
Boattini et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

[Sikeliot]

I think it's fair to generalize though that eastern Sicilians are mostly Greek, western Sicilians mostly Norman, Phoenician, and Greek combined, and central Sicilians are variable depending on whether they are Lombard, Arbereshe, or descended from historical Greeks.

[101DT]

Yes of course,

It is however interesting to observe that even the Island of Sicily is Diverse within itself;
due to the Historical settlements;

Ancient Sicily = Phoenician, Greek, Elymians (Trojans), Siculi (Ligurians), Sicani (Iberians)
Medieval Sicily = Norman, Lombard, Swabian, Greek, Saracen, Jews

[Sikeliot]

The thing to keep in mind is, MOST Sicilians cluster between Cypriots and Greeks. Therefore, their genetic admixture has stabilized.

[101DT]

The thing to keep in mind is, MOST Sicilians cluster between Cypriots and Greeks. Therefore, their genetic admixture has stabilized.

Well, the Sicilians cluster closest to South Italians and than Greeks and other east med populations;

But there is a a rift amongst South/Sicilians and Central + North Italians.
Central and North cluster close to and partially with each other;
South does not cluster with Central or North;
Sardinia clusters in a world of its own;

DiGaetano et al 2012
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759.g002&representation=PNG_M
Figure 2. SNP-Based PC of 1,014 individuals from the Italian dataset.
A. A Scatter Plot of the Italian population of the first two principal components obtained via R software (prcomp). Individuals included belong to Northern Italy : black dots, Central Italy : red dots, Southern Italy : green dots, Sardinian: blue dots.
B. Italian population without the Sardinian-projected scatter plot of the first two principal components obtained via the R software (prcomp)

[ChocolateFace]

Noric/Alpinid

[Ulla]

Enna is mostly ancient Greek descended.

He is not from a Lombard town. However most Lombard settlements being inland certainly explains why people say inland Sicilians are lighter.

Enna is mostly Greek, right, but had a Lombard quarter too.

Enna most important monument is the Castello di Lombardia, Castle of Lombardy, named after the Lombard soldiers that controlled the castle.

http://www.minniti.info/main/immagini/0451.jpg

Guide to Lombardia Castle in Enna

"After a very long seesaw siege, the Normans forced the emir Ibn Hamud to surrender and occupied the city. Probably at that time, the Earl Ruggero I decided to expel the Arab people and the Greek people from the area of the castle in order to fill it with Lombard people faithful to him. Thus he set the premise for the present name “Lombardia”.

https://www.academia.edu/3425836/Guide_to_the_Lombardia_Castle_in_Enna

[Sikeliot]

Enna is mostly Greek, right, but had a Lombard quarter too.

The question is how much genetic influence did Lombards have. I have seen haplogroup studies for different towns in Enna and they are almost solely E1b1b and J2.

[Ulla]

The question is how much genetic influence did Lombards have. I have seen haplogroup studies for different towns in Enna and they are almost solely E1b1b and J2.

I guess you're right, personally I never seen a study with samples from Enna.

Have you read this?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0096074

[Sikeliot]

I guess you're right, personally I never seen a study with samples from Enna.

Have you read this?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0096074

Yes. The key thing to take away is:

"Here this pattern appears extended to the whole Mediterranean Basin, particularly suggesting a shared genetic background between South-Eastern Italy and the South-Eastern Mediterranean cluster from one side, and between North-Western Italy and the Western Europe from the other side."

Also, y-dna in southern Italy is heavily linked to Greek and Balkan, while mtdna is more diverse but a significant chunk (35%) Neolithic Levantine if you look at a chart it showed.

[Mirko]

A familiar look, he remind me my son a bit...

[Ulla]

A familiar look, he remind me my son a bit...

Another pic of him

https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/998815_10200714168755073_21465946_n.jpg

[Sikeliot]

He sort of looks Albanian.

[Ulla]

Yes. The key thing to take away is:

"Here this pattern appears extended to the whole Mediterranean Basin, particularly suggesting a shared genetic background between South-Eastern Italy and the South-Eastern Mediterranean cluster from one side, and between North-Western Italy and the Western Europe from the other side."

Also, y-dna in southern Italy is heavily linked to Greek and Balkan, while mtdna is more diverse but a significant chunk (35%) Neolithic Levantine if you look at a chart it showed.

Yes. I started to read it just today.

Going back to the blonde Sicilian, Caltanissetta anyway is very near to the old Norman county of Butera and to some Lombard settlements.

[Sikeliot]

Going back to the blonde Sicilian, Caltanissetta anyway is very near to the old Norman county of Butera and to some Lombard settlements.

I can't make generalizing statements about Caltanissetta but of the 2 genetic results I have seen from there, they are quite close to European Jews. Which theoretically could be that Jews have Germanic admixture too, and Levantine.

[Ulla]

He sort of looks Albanian.

His surname isn't Arbereshe.

[Sikeliot]

His surname isn't Arbereshe.

Surely the two can look similar sometimes without Arbereshe mixture.

The only Arbereshe surname I know of is "Paxhia" that I have seen amongst Sicilians.

[Ulla]

I can't make generalizing statements about Caltanissetta but of the 2 genetic results I have seen from there, they are quite close to European Jews. Which theoretically could be that Jews have Germanic admixture too, and Levantine.

Sure, but you always forget that people move, like your ancestors. Even little movements, from a province to another. We have no evidence that his family is really from Caltanissetta. His surname is spread also in Campania, in Salerno area. Caltanissetta has few people with his surname.

[Ulla]

Surely the two can look similar sometimes without Arbereshe mixture.

The only Arbereshe surname I know of is "Paxhia" that I have seen amongst Sicilians.

Currently surname Paxhia doesn't exist in all Italy.

[Sikeliot]

Currently surname Paxhia doesn't exist in all Italy.

It's in Sicily, and is Arbereshe.

[Ulla]

It's in Sicily, and is Arbereshe.

I have searched through Pagine Bianche. Yes, 10 results in Sicily. You are right. But all the localities where it's found aren't Arbereshe communities. Check yourself

http://www.paginebianche.it/ricerca?qs=PAXHIA&dv=

[Ulla]

It's in Sicily, and is Arbereshe.

And here the oldest record of a person with that surname, a Notar (a notary) surnamed Paxhia living in 1585.
The area isn't typical for Arbereshe and no mention here about his presumed Albanian ancestry. In another document Paxhia seems to be living around 1600 in Bronte, another non Arbereshe town.

Probably I should find other variants of the surname. But since late 1500 seems to be stabilized.

IL CASALE E L'ABBAZIA DI S. MARIA DI MAN1ACE 71

Dilapidato il patrimonio del monastero dai commendatarii, lasciate in abbandono le fabbriche cadenti, divenute quasi spelonca di ladri, venuta l'abbazia in potere dell'Ospedale, i Rettori non pensarono che ad assottigliare le onze 200 pel mantenimento degli otto monaci, ivi lasciati a servizio del culto ; e per circa un secolo ridussero quel monastero ad un albergo : una casa a pigione. Chiesero ai papi potestà di potervi tenere preti o frati regolari di qualunque ordine, e allora sfrattavano ora questi ora quelli secondo la maggiore o minore spesa pel loro mantenimento (1). Così noi vediamo, come in un cinematografo, passare rapidamente preti e frati d' ogni religione. Nel 1585 cacciati via i Benedettini (2) , fu affidato il monastero ai Basiliani (3), espulsi questi, nel 1586 vi entrarono i frati Eremiti di S. Agostino (4) , che nel 1589 furono surrogati dai frati conventuali di San Francesco (5). Nel 1592 fu la Chiesa officiata da sacerdoti secolari, e fu dato loro come priore Don Antonio Collera da Naso (6), ma non completo l'anno, fu concessa ai frati Paulini. Nel 1593 ritornarono di nuovo i Basiliani (7). Nel 1601 papa Clemente Vili volendo porre riparo a questi repentini mutamenti , pensava di aggregare il monastero al clero di Bronte, ma nel 1602 i Rettori dell'Ospedale vi fecero ritornare i frati conventuali di S. Francesco (8) , e fatti sgomberare questi, nel 1603 fu dato al prete Collera con altri sacerdoti (9) ; dato lo sfratto al Collera, nel 1604 venne affidato a sacerdoti secolari di Cesare (10) e poi nel 1609 a sacer-



(1) Vedi Bolla di Alessandro VI. 27 Gen. 1497, pubblicata dal .Sil-
vestri, op. cit., pag. 148.

(2) 15 novembre 1585 Notar Galasso. 24 novembre 1585 Notar Paxhia.

(3) Notar Galasso G., 15 novembre 1585, Arch. di Stato, Palermo.

(4) Notar Galasso, 26 marzo 1586.

(5) Notar Galasso, 14 aprile 1589.

(6) Notar Paxhia, 7 giugno J592.

(7) Notar Milio di Palermo, 6 dicembre 1593.

(8) Notar Paxhia, 19 ottobre 1603.

(9) Notar Scalisi Palermo, 9 ottobre 1604.

10) Notar Silvestro Bonina da Bronte, 14 luglio 1604.

https://archive.org/details/nsarchiviostoric33soci

[scottch]

his hair is definitely brown, and I agree he looks Polish

[Mirko]

his hair is definitely brown, and I agree he looks Polish

C'mon, the guy is clearly ash blonde! :icon_rolleyes:
https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/998815_10200714168755073_21465946_n.jpg

[Smeagol]

Norid-Alpinid.

[Scandalf]

C'mon, the guy is clearly ash blonde! :icon_rolleyes:
https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/998815_10200714168755073_21465946_n.jpg

Blonde for Italians, dark blonde for others.

[Mirko]

Blonde for Italians, dark blonde for others.

Ok, maybe for the others dark ash blonde but definitely not brown!

[Scandalf]

Ok, maybe for the others dark ash blonde but definitely not brown!

I agree. Where do you live in Sicily?

[Yuffayur]

Dinaric look like a Blond from balkans or maybe east europe.

[Mirko]

I agree. Where do you live in Sicily?
Caltanissetta

[aherne]

Looks Italic (outside Italy he can pass as Irish, which is expected). Not blonde at all (only brown haired, which is once again typical of adult people of Italic looks). Most blondish Sicilians belong to variations of this type (inherited from Italic colonists).

[aherne]

C'mon, the guy is clearly ash blonde! :icon_rolleyes:
https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/998815_10200714168755073_21465946_n.jpg

In this picture he passes very well as Yugoslav (very typical) or to a lesser extent Albanian.

[Scandalf]

Caltanissetta

I live in CT, but I'm not Sicilian.

[Mirko]

I live in CT, but I'm not Sicilian.

Do you work here?

[Scandalf]

Do you work here?

As odd as it might seem, yes.