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View Full Version : Ustaša - what do modern Croats think of the movement?



Loki
06-27-2013, 07:14 PM
I'm curious. Are Croats nowadays distancing themselves from the atrocities that have been committed against Serbs in WW2? Ashamed of what happened? Has the Catholic Church apologised for its involvement?

Sisak
06-27-2013, 07:58 PM
It is a very painful topic.

Insuperable
06-27-2013, 08:24 PM
I'm curious. Are Croats nowadays distancing themselves from the atrocities that have been committed against Serbs in WW2? Ashamed of what happened?

This is not easy to answer because the answer depends on the situation and individuals. Government is perhaps distancing itself, its forbidden to wear Ustashe symbols and so on, but it overall depends on individuals. Furthermore, some people who would be
"accused" of being a follower of Ustasha ideology know little of their actions. Id say that Ustashe today are by far mostly a synonym or a symbolism of a patriotism without anything else. Honestly, I doubt that average someone is ashamed of everything and I doubt the average anyone knows or cares about things which happened, especially after 1990s.


Has the Catholic Church apologised for its involvement?

Catholic Church has nothing to be apologized. The truth is that there were some priests in Jasenovac. One of these priests was not even a priest at the time since he left his priesthood to go there. Others were cast out by the Vatican. Much of what the Catholic Church has done was made up by communists based on semi-truth logic. It was not easy for the Catholic Church of that time because it was torn between nations and torn between having a good relations with anyone and helping who needed help.

Permafrost
06-27-2013, 11:09 PM
During WWII, many Croats supported this movement because they stood for an independent Croatian statehood... the partisans on the other hand were seen as harbingers of oppression, id est SFRY. Lot of Croats adhered to the axis forces, at the apex they numbered more than 200.000 (Ustaše and Homeguard), the fact that they were denied self-determiation for quite a long time probably played a role in this.

I don't know about modern Croats though, they get very defensive when confronted about this, it's like taboo topic. Generally, as a rule of the thumb, the more southern you go the more supporters they have. For example in Istra such phenomena is probably non-existant.

Insuperable
06-27-2013, 11:16 PM
During WWII, many Croats supported this movement because they stood for an independent Croatian statehood... the partisans on the other hand were seen as harbingers of oppression, id est SFRY. Lot of Croats adhered to the axis forces, at the apex they numbered more than 200.000 (Ustaše and Homeguard), the fact that they were denied self-determiation for quite a long time probably played a role in this.

I don't know about modern Croats though, they get very defensive when confronted about this, it's like taboo topic. Generally, as a rule of the thumb, the more southern you go the more supporters they have. For example in Istra such phenomena is probably non-existant.

But there are no such thing as supporters of Ustasha. I am from the south and I have never met anyone or knew anyone who supports Ustashe unless you want to call some twelve to sixteen year old kids as such who overgrew that and do not have much clue about history in the first place. Ustashe are simply a forbidden symbol for nationalism for an average Croat and we can not generalize because of some exceptions who are I bet 1990s veterans in most cases.

Gorštak
06-27-2013, 11:18 PM
I'm curious. Are Croats nowadays distancing themselves from the atrocities that have been committed against Serbs in WW2? Ashamed of what happened? Has the Catholic Church apologised for its involvement?

Ustashe had to leave Croatia during communist rule, Ustashe movement is stronger at Croatia diaspora then in Croatia state.
They helped a lot to Croatia during war , not sure what is situation today, but in nineties Ustashe diaspora were still well organized and strong organization.

Loki
06-27-2013, 11:19 PM
But there are no such thing as supporters of Ustasha. I am from the south and I have never met anyone or knew anyone who supports Ustashe unless you want to call some twelve to sixteen year old kids as such who overgrew that and do not have much clue about history in the first place. Ustashe are simply a forbidden symbol for nationalism for an average Croat and we can not generalize because of some exceptions who are I bet 1990s veterans in most cases.

Hopefully in a generation or so the Serbs will distance themselves equally from the Milosevic regime.

Insuperable
06-27-2013, 11:24 PM
Ustashe had to leave Croatia during communist rule, Ustashe movement is stronger at Croatia diaspora then in Croatia state.
They helped a lot to Croatia during war , not sure what is situation today, but in nineties Ustashe diaspora were still well organized and strong organization.

I can say that I know two Croats from Australia who came back to live here and that is what I would call Ustasha and I am good with one. I did not mention them since I don't know where to put them since they are arrivals of the last decade.

Permafrost
06-27-2013, 11:24 PM
But there are no such thing as supporters of Ustasha. I am from the south and I have never met anyone or knew anyone who supports Ustashe unless you want to call some twelve to sixteen year old kids as such who overgrew that and do not have much clue about history in the first place. Ustashe are simply a forbidden symbol for nationalism for an average Croat and we can not generalize because of some exceptions who are I bet 1990s veterans in most cases.

You are probably right, I might have observed things from a leftist point of view, since for them Croat nationalist = Ustaša.

But then what about the Croat diaspora? I have seen those in Argentina and Australia using such symbology, and it is not forbidden in their case.

EDIT: NVM Black Swan beat me to it

Insuperable
06-27-2013, 11:25 PM
You are probably right, I might have observed things from a leftist point of view, since for them Croat nationalist = Ustaša.

But then what about the Croat diaspora? I have seen those in Argentina and Australia using such symbology, and it is not forbidden in their case.

EDIT: NVM Black Swan beat me to it

I really do not know what to think about diaspora.

Loki
06-27-2013, 11:26 PM
I really do not know what to think about diaspora.

Diaspora people always seem to be more extreme than locals, lol. Same with Bosniaks for example.

Stefan_Dusan
06-27-2013, 11:42 PM
During WWII, many Croats supported this movement because they stood for an independent Croatian statehood...

Pavelic gave up entire Croatian coast to Italians and accepted Italian prince. Under his rule Croatia was anything but independent. He was glorified mayor of Zagreb put there to cause enough civil war between Croatia and Serbia to keep German asses untouched.

In the end, Bleiburg should have been end for him and his men. Like a coward he fled.

Guapo
06-28-2013, 01:01 AM
Hopefully in a generation or so the Serbs will distance themselves equally from the Milosevic regime.

lol, dude why do you state things without knowing what goes on? Average Serbian folk toppled Milosevic regime.

Guapo
06-28-2013, 01:04 AM
Pavelic gave up entire Croatian coast to Italians and accepted Italian prince. Under his rule Croatia was anything but independent. He was glorified mayor of Zagreb put there to cause enough civil war between Croatia and Serbia to keep German asses untouched.

In the end, Bleiburg should have been end for him and his men. Like a coward he fled.

True, but Ustase were actually a solid army unlike the bosniak Handzars that killed mostly women and children and ran like pussies when they saw Partisans or Chetniks.

Partisans kicked ass!!

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4822819818244804&pid=1.7

Gorštak
06-28-2013, 01:06 AM
lol, dude why do you state things without knowing what goes on? Average Serbian folk toppled Milosevic regime.
We love to say " Serbs don't hate Milosevic because he started the wars, they hate him because he lose those wars":swl



True, but Ustase were actually a solid army unlike the bosniak Handzars that killed mostly women and children and ran like pussies when they saw Partisans or Chetniks.

Partisans kicked ass!!

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4822819818244804&pid=1.7

You will be shocked when you find how many Bosniaks were in Black Legion, most famous and
strongest Ustashe unit:laugh2:
They were mainly young mans from northeast Bosnia whose families were massacred by Chetniks, and they were very motivated to fight.
Although they also did crimes on Serb civilians.

Philo
06-28-2013, 01:08 AM
Ustaše can fuck off.

Stefan_Dusan
06-28-2013, 01:11 AM
We love to say " Serbs don't hate Milosevic because he started the wars, they hate him because he lose those wars":swl

If you want to blame Milosevic for starting wars in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo is one thing but besides Kosovo, Milosevic was hands off. He just sent arms and logistics and allowed Serbian volunteers to go (paras). In Kosovo I blame him for accepting NATO demands, even if they took off most objectionable points. He was scared of ground invasion and what his role would be. he should have known he was a dead man anyway.

Sisak
06-28-2013, 01:11 AM
When began Milosevic era Serbs did not go to any demonstrations against the regime nor anyone said anything against it. At that time, all Serbs supported the war.

Stefan_Dusan
06-28-2013, 01:13 AM
When began Milosevic era Serbs did not go to any demonstrations against the regime nor anyone said anything against it. At that time, all Serbs supported the war.

Serbs of course supported independence for Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as Croats and Bosnians supported independence for themself.

Guapo
06-28-2013, 01:14 AM
We love to say " Serbs don't hate Milosevic because he started the wars, they hate him because he lose those wars":swl




You will be shocked when you find how many Bosniaks were in Black Legion, most famous and
strongest Ustashe unit:laugh2:
They were mainly young mans from northeast Bosnia whose families were massacred by Chetniks, and they were very motivated to fight.
Although they also did crimes on Serb civilians.

Lol nice try making up stories, you losers were just cannon fodder for nazis, obicne picketine

Guapo
06-28-2013, 01:15 AM
When began Milosevic era Serbs did not go to any demonstrations against the regime nor anyone said anything against it. At that time, all Serbs supported the war.

Seriously, stfu already there were demonstrations in 1988, you dont have a clue

Gorštak
06-28-2013, 01:21 AM
Lol nice try making up stories, you losers were just cannon fodder for nazis, obicne picketine
lol every real Ustasha will say that Croats - Bosniaks Black Legion was strongest NDH unit in WW2

Look what Partizan Ivan Šibl wrote about them in his diary:


Jučer je počela ozbiljna neprijateljska ofenziva na Kalnik. To nisu više ustaše i domobrani iz okolnih garnizona, s kojima se već dva mjeseca poigravamo oko Kalnika i Bilogore; to je Francetićeva Crna legija. Povukli su je iz Bosne i poslali ovamo sa zadaćom da nas likvidira.

Crna legija je najelitnija ustaška postrojba. Upotrebljavaju je samo u borbama na najkritičnijim terenima, ili u kaznenim ekspedicijama.

Crn Volk
06-28-2013, 01:21 AM
You are probably right, I might have observed things from a leftist point of view, since for them Croat nationalist = Ustaša.

But then what about the Croat diaspora? I have seen those in Argentina and Australia using such symbology, and it is not forbidden in their case.

EDIT: NVM Black Swan beat me to it

In Australia, Croats are very pro-Ustasha. I grew up with some and some of my family members have married Croats, and it is not uncommon to see pictures of Ante Pavelic hanging up alongside Franjo Tudjman in the living rooms of Aussie-Croats. Some community organisations and establishments carry the names of Ante Pavelic, Ante Starcevic and so on.

Guapo
06-28-2013, 01:22 AM
lol every real Ustasha will say that Croats - Bosniaks Black Legion was strongest NDH unit in WW2

Look what Partizan Ivan Šibl wrote about them in his diary:



Lmao, herceg croats not muslims

Black legion was croatian unit. All who were shot in 1945. Hail partisans!

Gorštak
06-28-2013, 01:26 AM
Lmao, herceg croats not muslims
http://www.zaslike.com/files/9378avejbqjvnk6wp9me.jpg:lol:


Legend say that they were putting black uniforms for memory for loved ones killed by Chetniks.
Other version is that they didn't had any other material than black intended for priests;)


And they were not killed on Bleiburg. They refused to surrender to British and moved further, they know that they would be first to be killed by Partisans if they surrender.

The.Mask
06-28-2013, 01:26 AM
Ustashes were good comparing to partisans

Permafrost
06-29-2013, 05:40 AM
Ustashes were good comparing to partisans

But in regards to what? According to some sources, both groups orchestrated bloodbaths.

At least in Slovenia, partisans enjoyed overwhelming support from the population because they stood up to Nazi Germany who wanted to annex Lower Styria and forcibly Germanize the population, with brutal repressions. Italy on the other hand controlled territory up to Ljubljana, with even more brutal repressions on the population.

So normally TIGR and OF are seen as heroes, and in the mind of average Slovenes SFRY was not seen as a Serbocentric entity (The views of Bosniaks and Croats on the matter are probably different)

On the other hand this is the kind of bullshit people were fed with by German sponsored traitors -

http://i44.tinypic.com/2my9g5l.jpg

Gorštak
06-29-2013, 05:55 AM
But in regards to what? According to some sources, both groups orchestrated bloodbaths.

At least in Slovenia, partisans enjoyed overwhelming support from the population because they stood up to Nazi Germany who wanted to annex Lower Styria and forcibly Germanize the population, with brutal repressions. Italy on the other hand controlled territory up to Ljubljana, with even more brutal repressions on the population.

So normally TIGR and OF are seen as heroes, and in the mind of average Slovenes SFRY was not seen as a Serbocentric entity (The views of Bosniaks and Croats on the matter are probably different)

On the other hand this is the kind of bullshit people were fed with by German sponsored traitors -

http://i44.tinypic.com/2my9g5l.jpg

Problem is that rarely anyone wants to explore complicated situation in former Yugoslavia during war and after war and than conclude , man first should learn about many different political and military movements here, goals and different movements by all nations and their position.
It is easier to just defend side that you support and negate anything bad about them.
For example, people who hate Tito don't want to see anything positively in his actions( and I first as Bosniak know that he did some good things), but on the other hand communists accuse for fascism anybody who want to write or talk about communists mistakes and crimes(that have undoubtedly occurred).

Insuperable
06-29-2013, 02:56 PM
Pavelic gave up entire Croatian coast to Italians and accepted Italian prince. Under his rule Croatia was anything but independent. He was glorified mayor of Zagreb put there to cause enough civil war between Croatia and Serbia to keep German asses untouched.

In the end, Bleiburg should have been end for him and his men. Like a coward he fled.

Seems anything was better then Serboslavia

Szegedist
06-29-2013, 03:12 PM
Ustaše can fuck off.

Funny that, Jew, since Ustase did not hate Jews. And many Jews actually became "Honorary Aryans" under the Ustasa regime. Which was something the Nazis did not like. I read that there were Jewish party members and some high ranking officers even had Jewish mistresses. And don't forget people like Josip Frank (converted Jew) who had influence over the Proto-Ustasha ideology.

Its interesting how Anti semitism in Croatia was never as prominent as other countries, even during WW2 Jews were present in hardcore Croatian nationalist movements. I wish our Jews were like that too, instead many of our Jews became commies and other garbage... lucky Croats lol..



In the end, Bleiburg should have been end for him and his men. Like a coward he fled.
Dont forget the Serbian Chetniks which died in Bleiburg.


lol every real Ustasha will say that Croats - Bosniaks Black Legion was strongest NDH unit in WW2

Look what Partizan Ivan Šibl wrote about them in his diary:
NDH Ambassador to Kingdom of Hungary was actually Bosniak Muslim Hakija Hadzic .

Hakija Hadzic was a prominent Bosnian Muslim political leader in the NDH, born in Bileca on January 1, 1883. Along with Bosnian Muslim Ademaga Mesic, Fehim Spaho, Mehmet Handzic, Hadzic was active in the NDH regime. Educated in Vienna and Jena, during World War I he was a soldier in the Austro-Hungarian Army and became a POW in Russia. He later formed a Bosnian Muslim wing of the HSS, Moslemanska Organizacija Hrvatske Seljacke Stranke).



Btw, I heard that during Yugoslav times, in all war films there were no mentions of Ustashe, and they were never shown. Is that true?

I found this photo, found it quite funny, here is Ante Pavelic posing as Pablo Aranjos, to disguise his identity after the war lol, what a bad disguise.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Pablo_Aranjos.jpg

Szegedist
06-29-2013, 03:36 PM
Interesting trivia, Hungary provided the Ustasha with training camps, such as the Janko-Pusta training camp. In 1934, Vjekoslav Servatzy became the commander of this training camp, and Jure Francetic was his deputy. Such places also existed in Italy.

RussiaPrussia
06-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Interesting trivia, Hungary provided the Ustasha with training camps, such as the Janko-Pusta training camp. In 1934, Vjekoslav Servatzy became the commander of this training camp, and Jure Francetic was his deputy. Such places also existed in Italy.

i thought you wanted to be banned for 4 weeks?

Szegedist
06-29-2013, 03:39 PM
i thought you wanted to be banned for 4 weeks?

...

Philo
06-29-2013, 05:58 PM
Funny that, Jew, since Ustase did not hate Jews. And many Jews actually became "Honorary Aryans" under the Ustasa regime. Which was something the Nazis did not like. I read that there were Jewish party members and some high ranking officers even had Jewish mistresses. And don't forget people like Josip Frank (converted Jew) who had influence over the Proto-Ustasha ideology.

Its interesting how Anti semitism in Croatia was never as prominent as other countries, even during WW2 Jews were present in hardcore Croatian nationalist movements. I wish our Jews were like that too, instead many of our Jews became commies and other garbage... lucky Croats lol..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
Idiot.
Did'nt you request a 4 week ban? What happened?
And your country was criminal in WWII anyway. I am sure all the 400,000 Jews you sent to their deaths were Communist masterminds, right?

The devotion to the cause of the "final solution" of the Hungarian gendarmes surprised even Eichmann himself, who supervised the operation with only twenty officers and a staff of 100, which included drivers, cooks, etc.[60] Very few members of the Catholic or Protestant clergy raised their voices against sending the Jews to their death. (Notable was Bishop Áron Márton's sermon in Kolozsvár on May 18). But the Catholic Primate of Hungary, Serédi decided not to issue a pastoral letter condemning the deportation of the Jews.

According to Winston Churchill, in a letter to his Foreign Secretary dated July 11, 1944, "There is no doubt that this persecution of Jews in Hungary and their expulsion from enemy territory is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world...."

Szegedist
06-29-2013, 06:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
Idiot.


Have you considered that Jews who died in those camps died because, maybe they were enemies of the regime, partisans, who simply happened to be Jews?


[Did'nt you request a 4 week ban? What happened?
Ban was denied, and interesting topic is interesting so I came to have a peak.

Loki
06-29-2013, 06:01 PM
Did'nt you request a 4 week ban? What happened?


His request was rejected by the Supreme Court.

Philo
06-29-2013, 06:06 PM
Have you considered that Jews who died in those camps died because, maybe they were enemies of the regime, partisans, who simply happened to be Jews?


On 30 April 1941, Pavelić enacted the 'Law concerning Nationality',[81] which essentially made all Jews non-citizens, and this was followed by further laws restricting their movement and residency. From 23 May all Jews were required to wear yellow identification tags, and on 26 June Pavelić issued a decree which blamed Jews for activities against the NDH and ordered their internment in concentration camps.


"Today almost all banking and almost all trade in Croatia is in the hands of the Jews. This became possible only because the state gave them privileges, because the government believed that this would weaken Croatian national strength. The Jews greeted the foundation of the so-called Yugoslav state with great enthusiasm because a national Croatian state would never suit them as well as Yugoslavia did. [...] All the press in Croatia is in Jewish hands. This Jewish Freemason press is constantly attacking Germany, the German people and national socialism."
I somehow doubt that only Communists were incarcarated. Notice in the first quote it says "ALL".

Ban was denied, and interesting topic is interesting so I came to have a peak.
What a shame. I did'nt greet your ban at first, but now I see that you are a pain in the ass more than ever.

Szegedist
06-29-2013, 08:15 PM
I somehow doubt that only Communists were incarcarated. Notice in the first quote it says "ALL".
Were these laws actually enforced or were they simply passed? The Ustasa were known to be slackers when it came to enforcing anti-jewish laws.

Anti Semitism was never a core part of their ideology, and whatever they might have said later was just Pavelic trying to be "politically correct" in a way that was common in Nazi puppet states.


I
What a shame. I did'nt greet your ban at first, but now I see that you are a pain in the ass more than ever.
I missed you too.

Stefan_Dusan
06-29-2013, 08:24 PM
Dont forget the Serbian Chetniks which died in Bleiburg.


Very few if any. One reason is that they were still in open fight with home guard and ustashe. Chetniks dispersed back into Serbia. Usually the mountains. Mihailovic was caught in Serbia for example.

Philo
06-29-2013, 10:46 PM
Were these laws actually enforced or were they simply passed? The Ustasa were known to be slackers when it came to enforcing anti-jewish laws.

Anti Semitism was never a core part of their ideology, and whatever they might have said later was just Pavelic trying to be "politically correct" in a way that was common in Nazi puppet states.
Excuses. Buttom line, non-Communist people got killed too based on their ethnicity alone.
But yeah, Croats were not as worse as Hungarians, we agree there.

Szegedist
06-30-2013, 02:16 AM
E
But yeah, Croats were not as worse as Hungarians, we agree there.

NDH and wartime Hungary cannot be compared.

Wartime K of H: Democratic state, independent, Rule of Law, no genocide, no deportations, no death camps.

During WW2 when genocide and deportations were happening all over Europe, Hungary was an oasis of peace and rule of democratic law, where people from surrounding countries fled to safety. We TOOK IN Jewish refugees you ungrateful Jewish fuck. There were even Zionist orgonisations who tried to get Jews INTO Hungary(an Axis state) and from there go to Israel.

You should be grateful to Admiral Horthy who saved hundreds of thousands of Jews.
You know what? Even if he saw what ungrateful fcks Jews are, he would have still done it! God bless his soul and long live the Admiral, His Serene Highness Miklós Horthy,!

NDH: war torn puppet state with Chetniks, Partisans, Ustashe and others battling it out, ethnic cleansing, death camps, etc.

Philo
06-30-2013, 02:19 AM
NDH and wartime Hungary cannot be compared.

Wartime K of H: Democratic state, independent, Rule of Law, no genocide, no deportations, no death camps.

During WW2 when genocide and deportations were happening all over Europe, Hungary was an oasis of peace and rule of democratic law, where people from surrounding countries fled to safety. We TOOK IN Jewish refugees you ungrateful Jewish fuck. There were even Zionist orgonisations who tried to get Jews INTO Hungary(an Axis state) and from there go to Israel.


NDH: war torn puppet state with Chetniks, Partisans, Ustashe and others battling it out, ethnic cleansing, death camps, etc.

And you Hungarian fucks sent those who came there straight to Auschwitz.:rolleyes:

Szegedist
06-30-2013, 02:21 AM
And you Hungarian fucks sent those who came there straight to Auschwitz.:rolleyes:

By Hungarians you mean Adolf Eichmann?

Gorštak
06-30-2013, 02:21 AM
It is not true that you can't see Ustashe in Yugoslavia movies.

Only small number of Chetniks were killed on Bleiburg and on Way of the Cross. Most of them just joined Partisans at the end of war.

What I find interestingly is that today people who glorify Ustashe always on events and concerts wear black Ustashe uniforms.
In reality, black uniforms were characteristic only for Black Legion, and this is how ordinary Ustashe looked
http://www.zaslike.com/files/4pd50qdjkgs2acdfy31.jpg

Black Legion
http://www.zaslike.com/files/dcwt9oeork3mec236d8z.jpg


Fans of Ustashe
http://www.zaslike.com/files/ysrezcek6x1epdyw9lu8.jpg


But that is just minority of Croats .
I personally don't care about Ustashe, I'm not fan of them, but I'm very interested for Black Legion as highly respected military unit.

meAyin-sixteen
07-03-2013, 08:18 PM
...

Marko
07-03-2013, 09:06 PM
Most Croatians i know hate Serbs are not ashamed of their ww2 history.

Arbërori
07-03-2013, 09:12 PM
Most Croats I know aren't really big supporters of ustashe, but they are extremely patriotic.

Many dislike the Serbs much more than us Albanians for ex. I personally don't, but my best friend can't stand them.