Classify Byzantine Emperor, Justinian I

[Smeagol]

http://neuage.org/dwight/6th/6a/web-Byzantine/Sergei/image/justinian.jpg

http://www.bonzasheila.com/stories/images/justiniantheodora4.jpg

[Skerdilaid]

Dinarid

[Manuel]

LOL, he looks painfully Balkanite. But so does Narses (an Armenian) and Belisarius (another Balkanite) in that mosaic. Don't trust it!

OH and he was a Roman Emperor thank you very much.

[Skerdilaid]

Well that's what they were and some Armenians look quite Balkanite.

[Manuel]

Well that's what they were and some Armenians look quite Balkanite.

Oh I know they were from the Balkans but I meant that mosaics aren't very detailed at all so I don't know how one could classify people from that.

[Methusalem]

Mediterranid or Dinarid. Hard to say.

[Scholarios]

I don't know about classification, but he was a proto-Vlach from near Skopie. The last Roman Emperor to speak Latin as a native-tongue surely qualifies this. I believe Gibbon claimed he may have been an early resident of a Sklavinae and hence from North of the Danube originally.

[Manuel]

I don't know about classification, but he was a proto-Vlach from near Skopie. The last Roman Emperor to speak Latin as a native-tongue surely qualifies this. I believe Gibbon claimed he may have been an early resident of a Sklavinae and hence from North of the Danube originally.

Gibbon:

"The emperor Justinian was born[1] near the ruins of Sardica (the modern Sophia), of an obscure race [2] of Barbarians[3], the inhabitants of a wild and desolate country, to which the names of Dardania, of Dacia, and of Bulgaria, have been successively applied."

1.There is some difficulty in the date of his birth (Ludewig in Vit. Justiniani, p. 125.); none in the place – the district Bederiana – the village Tauresium, which he afterwards decorated with his name and splendour (D’Anville, Hist. de l’Acad. &c. tom. xxxi. p. 287–292.).

2. The names of these Dardanian peasants are Gothic, and almost English: Justinian is a translation of uprauda (upright); his father Sabatius (in Græco-barbarous language stipes) was styled in his village Istock (Stock); his mother Bigleniza was softened into Vigilantia.

3. Ludewig (p. 127–135.) attempts to justify the Anician name of Justinian and Theodora, and to connect them with a family from which the house of Austria has been derived.

[wvwvw]

And this was his wife Theodora

Theodora I (Greek: Θεοδώρα) (c. 500 – 28 June 548), was empress of the Roman (Byzantine) Empire and the wife of Emperor Justinian I. Theodora is perhaps the most influential and powerful woman in the Roman Empire's history. Some sources even mention her as empress regnant with Justinian I as her co-regent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Meister_von_San_Vitale_in_Ravenna_008.jpg

Theodora, detail of a Byzantine mosaic in the Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna
Byzantine Empress
Tenure 9 August 527 – 28 June 548
Predecessor Euphemia
Successor Sophia
Spouse Justinian I
Issue
John, Theodora
Full name
Theodora
Father Acacius
Mother Theodora?
Born c. 500
Cyprus
Died 28 June 548 (aged 48)
Constantinople
Burial Church of the Holy Apostles

[Ice]

There is no such thing as a byzantine empire/emperor.. it's east roman empire.

He looks armenian+balkan

[Scholarios]

Gibbon:

"The emperor Justinian was born[1] near the ruins of Sardica (the modern Sophia), of an obscure race [2] of Barbarians[3], the inhabitants of a wild and desolate country, to which the names of Dardania, of Dacia, and of Bulgaria, have been successively applied."

1.There is some difficulty in the date of his birth (Ludewig in Vit. Justiniani, p. 125.); none in the place – the district Bederiana – the village Tauresium, which he afterwards decorated with his name and splendour (D’Anville, Hist. de l’Acad. &c. tom. xxxi. p. 287–292.).

2. The names of these Dardanian peasants are Gothic, and almost English: Justinian is a translation of uprauda (upright); his father Sabatius (in Græco-barbarous language stipes) was styled in his village Istock (Stock); his mother Bigleniza was softened into Vigilantia.

3. Ludewig (p. 127–135.) attempts to justify the Anician name of Justinian and Theodora, and to connect them with a family from which the house of Austria has been derived.

Interesting on Gibbon. I knew he said something off-color about Justinian (as a lot of his commentary on Eastern Rome). An interesting point is to speculate how his birthplace can be considered so far apart as Serdica and Tauresium. If he was born in Serdica, he was almost certainly a Greek-speaker, I'd have thought- even if he was of Gothic extraction.

[Roy]

East Med. He had what I call ''byzantine eyes'', Sikeliot have it imo.

[Arianiti]

Justinian depicted on one of the famous mosaics of the Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna
Reign 9 August 527 - 13 or 14 November 565
Full name Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus
Born c. 482
Birthplace Tauresium, province of Dardania
Died 13 or 14 November 565
Place of death Constantinople
Predecessor Justin I
Successor Justin II
Consort Theodora
Dynasty Justinian Dynasty

Justinian, The Great, was Dardanian, nothing else. ;)

[Arianiti]

So was Constantine, The Great, Dardanian, born in Naissus

Flavius Valerius Constantinus, as he was originally named, was born in the city of Naissus, Dardania.

[wvwvw]

There is no such thing as a byzantine empire/emperor.. it's east roman empire.

He looks armenian+balkan


There certainly is you ignorant Turk :)

Theodora was the wife of Justinian I who was crowned Emperor of the Byzantine Empire in 527 AD. As his wife, she ruled by his side, as his partner, and her intelligence helped to advance the Empire.
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/easteurope/theodora.html

The roman empire has been divided in 395 between the Western Empire on one side and on the other the Eastern Empire.

The Roman Empire of the West suffered the barbarian invasions of the Vth century, and collapsed less than a hundred years after its constitution, in 476. The Roman Empire of the East became the Byzantine Empire and resisted to foreign invasions, surviving until 1453, a thousand years after the fall of the Roman Empire of the West.

Just for the fun of it: A simple prophecy in Daniel 2 foretold that a kindgdom set up by God would be to take place in the days of the the Roman Empire, after its division.

In the first centuries ( 4th-6th AC) Byzantine Empire was like the Roman one. The laws were written in Latin language and only in Justinian's age 6th century) some laws were written in Greek " ... to be more understood" as Justinian said. The emperors also in those centuries wanted to make a new Roman Empire by reconquering the old Roman territories. Only the architecture of the country's buildings was clearly Greek, for example the Palaces, the Agora of the new capital etc.

Between 6th and 11th century the Empire became Greek. The laws were written in Greek. Texts, books hymns were all written in the greek language. Some emperors were Greeks. The trade was mainly controled my the Greeks. The greek language had totally won the Latin one and it became the official language of the Empire. After the 6th century the Empire could be renamed as Greek Empire.

[wvwvw]

Justinian, The Great, was Dardanian, nothing else. ;)

First you have to prove there were Albanians in Dardania, and even if there were, was he the product of any Albanian culture?

[wvwvw]

So was Constantine, The Great, Dardanian, born in Naissus

Flavius Valerius Constantinus, as he was originally named, was born in the city of Naissus, Dardania.

What about his mother?

[Arianiti]

First you have to prove there were Albanians in Dardania, and even if there were, was he the product of any Albanian culture?

Of course there were Dardanians there. He was product of Dardanian culture, and the reason he created Constantinopole in today's location was because of location of Troy.

He was Albanian predecessor.

[Arianiti]

..

[Scholarios]

Justinian, The Great, was Dardanian, nothing else. ;)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GQYuDxkkKgM/UdAco7TXsTI/AAAAAAAAAe8/1d6m9h41l_4/s640/justinian%2527s%2520language.jpg

A Latin-speaking Dardanian is a Vlach, for all intents and purposes.

[Ice]

There certainly is you ignorant Turk :)

Theodora was the wife of Justinian I who was crowned Emperor of the Byzantine Empire in 527 AD. As his wife, she ruled by his side, as his partner, and her intelligence helped to advance the Empire.
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/easteurope/theodora.html

The roman empire has been divided in 395 between the Western Empire on one side and on the other the Eastern Empire.

The Roman Empire of the West suffered the barbarian invasions of the Vth century, and collapsed less than a hundred years after its constitution, in 476. The Roman Empire of the East became the Byzantine Empire and resisted to foreign invasions, surviving until 1453, a thousand years after the fall of the Roman Empire of the West.

Just for the fun of it: A simple prophecy in Daniel 2 foretold that a kindgdom set up by God would be to take place in the days of the the Roman Empire, after its division.

In the first centuries ( 4th-6th AC) Byzantine Empire was like the Roman one. The laws were written in Latin language and only in Justinian's age 6th century) some laws were written in Greek " ... to be more understood" as Justinian said. The emperors also in those centuries wanted to make a new Roman Empire by reconquering the old Roman territories. Only the architecture of the country's buildings was clearly Greek, for example the Palaces, the Agora of the new capital etc.

Between 6th and 11th century the Empire became Greek. The laws were written in Greek. Texts, books hymns were all written in the greek language. Some emperors were Greeks. The trade was mainly controled my the Greeks. The greek language had totally won the Latin one and it became the official language of the Empire. After the 6th century the Empire could be renamed as Greek Empire.

The term Byzantine Empire is a German invention of the 16th century. By giving (East) Roman Empire a city name(Byzantium), the Germans tried to remove the title 'Roman'. So only they(Holy Roman Empire) were a Roman Empire, and not the Turks/Ottomans.

[Arianiti]

Speaking Latin language does not tell much about ethnicity, as upper classes used Latin even in other places.

Justin and Justinian were probably Illyrians or perhaps Albanians. Justinian was born in one of the villages of upper Macedonia, not far from present-day Uskub, on the Albanian border.The first three emperors of this epoch, then, were Illyrians or Albanians, though of course they were Romanized; their native language was Latin.

I'm sure they used it only as official language and it wasn't their native. He was Albanian not some shepherd vlach.

[Scholarios]

Speaking Latin language does not say much about ethnicity, as upper classes used Latin even in other places.

Justin and Justinian were probably Illyrians or perhaps Albanians. Justinian was born in one of the villages of upper Macedonia, not far from present-day Uskub, on the Albanian border.The first three emperors of this epoch, then, were Illyrians or Albanians, though of course they were Romanized; their native language was Latin.

I'm sure they used it only as official language and it wasn't their native. He was Albanian not some shepherd vlach.

You're sure he used it as lingua franca and not a native-language? Well I guess I'll take your word for it without sources, books, articles, etc.

Justinian's laws specifically refer to Latin as his native-tongue. He seems to be very proud of it and stressed his native-language in the Codex.


Not that the emperor ever intended any such thing. Born in Macedonia near the Albanian border, he was sprung from Illyrian stock, the same race that had given Rome many great emperors in the past, including Constantine the Great himself, and Justinian was to note with some pride that his native language was Latin. He was almost the last Byzantine emperor who could say this.


http://www.kroraina.com/varia/pdfs/evans_Justinian%20and%20the%20Historian%20Procopiu s.pdf


Btw, what was occupation of Albanians in Reka Valley Slavo-Macedonia?

[Arianiti]

Where does it say that he is a Vlach? Did he ever say it, since you speak with your preferred links. Or you don't like that he is an Albanian.

[Scholarios]

Where does it say that it is a Vlach? Or you don't like that he is an Albanian.

I'm saying that his native-language was Latin.(he said it as well) Post Slav invasions we call these people as "Vlachs". If you can call everyone who lived from Slovenia to Epirus in antiquity as "Albanian", then we surely can call Justinian a Vlach- that is a inhabitant of Balkans who uses Romance language as his native-tongue.

[wvwvw]

Dardanian culture? Please... :picard2: Albanians really need to separate history from science fiction.

The Byzantine Empire was not some "multi-ethnic" state. Rhomaioi identified as Greeks. Every scholar of the byzantine Empire will tell you that the "Rhomaic"identity was not just a political one but it had strong linguistic and cultural components as well as an "imagined universal past", the basic elements of an ethnos. Yes, "foreigners" did participate in Byzantium and were elevated in the highest positions but only after embracing the "Rhomaic" identity and acting in accordance to it. Such men were no different in their context than f.ex Madeleine Albright or Herny Kissinger in the modern US context. These people achieved their high positions by embracing wholeheartly the "American" identity.

The Rhomaic identity, in its politico-cultural continuum has continued exclusively into modern Greece. The current states of the Balkans had distinct political identities during medieval times and their citizens never described themselves as "Rhomaioi". When the Ottomans created the "Rum milliet", it was because the primacy of leading the Orthodox peoples of the Ottoman Empire was given to the Rhomaioi. In the main, non-Greek elements of the "Rum" milliet never abandoned their identity.

To the degree that the Byzantine civilization affected a wide area in SE Europe, cultural elements of this civilization are definitely part of the inheritance of these people. But the political history of the Empire certainly is not. Cognomens such as "Slav", "Boulgaros", "Armenian" were assigned by outsiders such as chroniclers, to just differentiate them from more "legitimate" Rhomaioi. The use of these cognomens cannot be taken ever as evidence that the designation "Rhomaioi" had a mere political meaning.

The people of Constantinople called someone "the Armenian" or the "Slav" f.ex because this set them apart from the majority. These cognomens can only be understood in the context of an ethnic meaning of the term "Rhomaios", not the other way around. It is the same mechanism that in modern Greece and other countries, generate the same cognomens. For example, no Armenian adhering to the Armenian church could occupy high positions in the Empire. In doing so he partially denounced his Armenian identity. It would not have been unthinkable -and it happened repeatedly- if these people led Byzantine armies that pounded Armenia.

The Greek ethnicity was clearly part of the Rhomaic identity. The Army and the Senate for example never elevated Symeon to the post of Emperor. He was not accepted in any of these. Culturally, the Byzantine civilization was widespread in SE Europe and many other political entities than Byzantium contributed to it: Russians, Georgians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Croats, Hungarians, Italians etc, etc. As such, cultural Byzantium is part of their overall culture. But it would be bizzare to say that the political history of Byzantium is part, for example, of the Bulgarian (or other) identity. Not only the Rhomaioi regarded the Bulgarians as mortal enemies, but they acted repeatedly on these notions.

[Arianiti]

I'm saying that his native-language was Latin.(he said it as well) Post Slav invasions we call these people as "Vlachs". If you can call everyone who lived from Slovenia to Epirus in antiquity as "Albanian", then we surely can call Justinian a Vlach- that is a inhabitant of Balkans who uses Romance language as his native-tongue.

lol

You are funny guy. Almost all sources say that he was of Illyrian Origin, and he was born in Dardanian Roman Province. So what makes you think that he is a Vlach. What "Slavic arrival" in 400-500 Ad has to do anything with his ethinicity. Did slavs reach this region by those years. Speaking Latin does not tell anything of his ethnicity. Especially at that time.

[wvwvw]

lol

You are funny guy. Almost all sources say that he was of Illyrian Origin, and he was born in Dardanian Roman Province. So what makes you think that he is a Vlach. What "Slavic arrival" in 400-500 has to do with his ethinicity. Speaking Latin does tell anything of his ethnicity.

First you have to prove that Albanians are related to Illyrians. What makes him Albanian and not Serb, Bosnian etc?

[Arianiti]

First you have to prove that Albanians are related to Illyrians. What makes him Albanian and not Serb, Bosnian etc?

:D

Not only Illyrians but we are even ancient Helens. We built the East Roman Empire.

[Scholarios]

lol

You are funny guy. Almost all sources say that he was of Illyrian Origin, and he was born in Dardania Roman Province. So what makes you think that he a Vlach. What Slavic arrival in 400-500 ad has to do with his ethinicity. Speaking Latin does tell anything of his ethnicity.

So what is your way to describe nationality before modern era? Justinian, a peasant from a Latin-speaking section of a multi-ethnic empire referred to himself as a Roman and his native-language as Latin, a point of which he was extremely proud. It's impossible to tell what his ancestors were- whether native-Illyrians or Roman colonists (probably both)- but he himself was clearly a proud Roman who spoke Latin as a native language. Call him "Albanian" all that you want, but it's just wishful thinking. It's like Greeks claiming all Byzantine Emperors were Hellenes or something. Justinian existed at a time when there was no Albania or Albanians and that's a fact.


a·nach·ro·nism
/əˈnakrəˌnizəm/
Noun
A thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, esp. a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned.
An act of attributing a custom, event, or object to a period to which it does not belong.

[Arianiti]

What Latin speaking region? What are you talking about. Who says that he was born in a Latin-speaking region. Latin was the language of Church and we all know what was the influence of religion at the time. We could say that latin was considered as a Saint language, language of the God/Church and of the Empire. Nevertheless, Im not saying that all Emperors were Illyro-Albanian, but only these:

These are all Roman Emperors of Illyrian Origin.

Constantine I — born in - Nish Dardania (Illyrian)
Aurelian — Born in - Moesia (Illyrian Dacia)
Claudius II — born in - Dardania (Illyrian)
Probus — born in - Sirmium (Illyrian stock)
Diocletian — born in - Dalmatia (Illyrian)
Six Roman emperors were born in the city of Sirmium or in its surrounding, meaning of Illyrian stock:

Decius Traian (249-251)
Aurelian (270-275)
Probus (276-282)
Maximianus Herculius (285-310)
Constantius II (337-361)
Gratian (367-383)
Illyrian-Byzantine Emperors

Justin I - born in a hamlet near Dardania. Probably of local Dardanian stock.
Justinian - was born around 483 AD at Tauresium in Illyricum (Illyrian)

[Arianiti]

Raine, most you have wrote is something like Alisa in the Wonderland. Its all BS.

[wvwvw]

Constanine's mother Helena was born in Helenopolis, Asia Minor
Diocletian was born in Solin, Croatia and so on.

None of those Emperors you mentioned spoke "Albanian" or was Albanian.

[Arianiti]

The city was named Helenopolis by Emperor Constantine.

Helena's birthplace is not known with certainty. The 6th-century historian Procopius is the earliest authority for the statement that Helena was a native of Drepanum, in the province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Her son Constantine renamed the city "Helenopolis" after her death in 330

Bithynia was an ancient region, kingdom and Roman province in the northwest of Asia Minor, adjoining the Propontis, the Thracian Bosporus and the Euxine (today Black Sea).

She was not greek if you aim on this. However we Albanians do not count mother's line. She could be from Zululand also, and we don't care.

[Loki]

One of my heroes, he was a great man.

[wvwvw]

The city was named Helenopolis by Emperor Constantine.

Helena's birthplace is not known with certainty. The 6th-century historian Procopius is the earliest authority for the statement that Helena was a native of Drepanum, in the province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Her son Constantine renamed the city "Helenopolis" after her death in 330

Bithynia was an ancient region, kingdom and Roman province in the northwest of Asia Minor, adjoining the Propontis, the Thracian Bosporus and the Euxine (today Black Sea).

She was not greek if you aim on this. However we Albanians do not count mother's line. She could be from Zululand, and we don't care.

Helenopolis is very Greek name. It cannot get any Greek than that. Is this the "Dardanian" culture he was spreading? Remind me what Polis means in Albanian :rolleyes: Oh I forgot he didn't even speak Sqhip.

[Arianiti]

The Illyriciani or Illyrian emperors were a group of Roman emperors during the Crisis of the Third Century who hailed from the region of Illyricum (the modern western Balkans), and were raised chiefly from the ranks of the Roman army (whence they are ranked among the so-called "barracks emperors"). In the 2nd and 3rd centuries, the Illyricum and the other Danubian provinces (Raetia, Pannonia, Moesia) held the largest concentration of Roman forces (12 legions, up to a third of the total army), and were a major recruiting ground. The advance of these low-born provincials was facilitated by a major shift in imperial policy from the time of Gallienus (260–268) on, when higher military appointments ceased to be exclusively filled by senators. Instead, professional soldiers of humble origin who had risen through the ranks to the post of primus pilus (which also entailed admission to the equestrian order) were placed as heads of the legions and filled the army's command structure.

The historical period of the Illyrian emperors proper begins with Claudius Gothicus in 268 and ends in 284 with the rise of Diocletian and the institution of the Tetrarchy. This rather short period was very important in the history of the Empire, since it represents the recovery from the Crisis of the Third Century, a long period of usurpations and military difficulties. All of the Illyrian emperors were trained and able soldiers, and they recovered some of the provinces and positions lost by their predecessors, including Gaul and the eastern provinces. Men of Illyrian or Thraco-Dacian origin however continued to be prominent in the Empire throughout the 4th century and beyond.

The Illyriciani emperors' list is the following:

Decius - ruled AD 249–251
Hostilianus - ruled AD 251
Claudius II "Gothicus" - ruled AD 268–270 (either from Illyricum or Moesia Superior, Thrace)
Quintillus - ruled AD 270
Aurelian - ruled AD 270–275 (either from Dacia ripensis, Dacia or Illyricum)
Probus - ruled AD 276–282
Diocletian - ruled AD 284–305
Maximianus "Herculius" - ruled AD 286–305
Galerius - ruled AD 305-311
Constantine I - ruled AD 306–337
Maximinus Daia - ruled AD 308–313
Jovian - ruled AD 363–364
Valentinianus I - ruled AD 364–375
Valens - ruled AD 364–378
Gratian - ruled AD 375–383
Valentinianus II - ruled AD 375–392
Marcianus - ruled AD 450–457 (either Illyricum or Moesia, Thrace)
Anastasius I - ruled AD 491–518
Justin I - ruled AD 518–527 (either Thracian or Illyrian but born in Moesia, Thrace)
Justinian I - ruled AD 527–56


High grade cavalry was also called Equites Illyriciani

[wvwvw]

East Med. He had what I call ''byzantine eyes'', Sikeliot have it imo.

:biggrin:

[Loki]

:biggrin:

I think he's right, you know :p

[Scholarios]

What Latin speaking region? What are you talking about. Who says that he was born in a Latin-speaking region. Latin was the language of Church and we all know what was the influence of religion of the time. We could say that latin was considered as Saint language. Nevertheless, Im not saying that all Emperors were Albanian, but only these:

These are all Roman Emperors of Illyrian Origin.

Constantine I — born in - Nish Dardania (Illyrian)
Aurelian — Born in - Moesia (Illyrian Dacia)
Claudius II — born in - Dardania (Illyrian)
Probus — born in - Sirmium (Illyrian stock)
Diocletian — born in - Dalmatia (Illyrian)
Six Roman emperors were born in the city of Sirmium or in its surrounding, meaning of Illyrian stock:

Decius Traian (249-251)
Aurelian (270-275)
Probus (276-282)
Maximianus Herculius (285-310)
Constantius II (337-361)
Gratian (367-383)
Illyrian-Byzantine Emperors

Justin I - born in a hamlet near Dardania. Probably of local Dardanian stock.
Justinian - was born around 483 AD at Tauresium in Illyricum (Illyrian)

Not a single of those emperors was Albanian. Many of them were Illyrian. Justinian was Latin-speaking as his native language (as he says in his text "our language" as opposed to "ellenika" (Greek language). He never once mentioned Illyrian language (if I am wrong please provide a source).

Today, how many Albanians speak a Romance language as their native-tongue?? (maybe only Vlachs).

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/RomanBalkan.jpg

Other than Justinian's own words, what other proof do you need? He said his native-language was Latin. End of story. The rest is a remnant of 20th Century politics.

[Arianiti]

I will open e new thread and lets discuss, after I come back from lunch.

[Loki]

Justinian was more likely of Thracian than Illyrian descent.

[wvwvw]

The Illyriciani or Illyrian emperors were a group of Roman emperors during the Crisis of the Third Century who hailed from the region of Illyricum (the modern western Balkans), and were raised chiefly from the ranks of the Roman army (whence they are ranked among the so-called "barracks emperors"). In the 2nd and 3rd centuries, the Illyricum and the other Danubian provinces (Raetia, Pannonia, Moesia) held the largest concentration of Roman forces (12 legions, up to a third of the total army), and were a major recruiting ground. The advance of these low-born provincials was facilitated by a major shift in imperial policy from the time of Gallienus (260–268) on, when higher military appointments ceased to be exclusively filled by senators. Instead, professional soldiers of humble origin who had risen through the ranks to the post of primus pilus (which also entailed admission to the equestrian order) were placed as heads of the legions and filled the army's command structure.

The historical period of the Illyrian emperors proper begins with Claudius Gothicus in 268 and ends in 284 with the rise of Diocletian and the institution of the Tetrarchy. This rather short period was very important in the history of the Empire, since it represents the recovery from the Crisis of the Third Century, a long period of usurpations and military difficulties. All of the Illyrian emperors were trained and able soldiers, and they recovered some of the provinces and positions lost by their predecessors, including Gaul and the eastern provinces. Men of Illyrian or Thraco-Dacian origin however continued to be prominent in the Empire throughout the 4th century and beyond.

The Illyriciani emperors' list is the following:

Decius - ruled AD 249–251
Hostilianus - ruled AD 251
Claudius II "Gothicus" - ruled AD 268–270 (either from Illyricum or Moesia Superior, Thrace)
Quintillus - ruled AD 270
Aurelian - ruled AD 270–275 (either from Dacia ripensis, Dacia or Illyricum)
Probus - ruled AD 276–282
Diocletian - ruled AD 284–305
Maximianus "Herculius" - ruled AD 286–305
Galerius - ruled AD 305-311
Constantine I - ruled AD 306–337
Maximinus Daia - ruled AD 308–313
Jovian - ruled AD 363–364
Valentinianus I - ruled AD 364–375
Valens - ruled AD 364–378
Gratian - ruled AD 375–383
Valentinianus II - ruled AD 375–392
Marcianus - ruled AD 450–457 (either Illyricum or Moesia, Thrace)
Anastasius I - ruled AD 491–518
Justin I - ruled AD 518–527 (either Thracian or Illyrian but born in Moesia, Thrace)
Justinian I - ruled AD 527–56


High grade cavalry was also called Equites Illyriciani

Again, what makes them Albanian? Illyrians got their name from Greeks and were not even homogenous. They were mixed with Greeks, as Illyria was scattered with Greek colonies.

[wvwvw]

A Great book. "Illyria" was literally littered with Greek colonies:

Hellenikos Kolpos, Supplemento a Grecita adriatica
http://i40.tinypic.com/r8xwk1.jpg

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_0035-0818_2005_num_83_1_4916_t1_0167_0000_1

[aherne]

A Latin-speaking Dardanian is a Vlach, for all intents and purposes.

A bit too early to speak of Romanians at that time. Before we got Slavic influence, one cannot speak of a Romanian language/people (since so much of our ethnicity is Slavic in origin).

Justinian looks purely Bulgarian (of a Thracian type common in South of Balkan mountains). Looks reflects ancestry!

Theodora looks purely Greek (a Greek/Pelasgian light skinned variant of Mediterrannean). Looks once again reflect ancestry!

[Loki]

A Great book. "Illyria" was literally littered with Greek colonies:


That's what I've always said - that the E-V13 Y-DNA marker, common among Albanians, is ultimately of Greek colonisation origin. And could also be Thracian.

[el22]

Again, what makes them Albanian? Illyrians got their name from Greeks and were not even homogenous. They were mixed with Greeks, as Illyria was scattered with Greek colonies.

What does Illyrian mean in Greek?

[Scholarios]

A bit too early to speak of Romanians at that time. Before we got Slavic influence, one cannot speak of a Romanian language/people (since so much of our ethnicity is Slavic in origin).

Justinian looks purely Bulgarian (of a Thracian type not common South of Balkan mountains). Looks reflects ancestry!

Theodora looks purely Greek (a Greek/Pelasgian light skinned variant of Mediterrannean). Looks once again reflect ancestry!

A proto-Vlach is my preferred term. But also, not all Vlachs are of Dacian-Romanian ultimate origin, for instance like the Vlachs of Greece. Vlachs was an exonym applied by foreigners, but for Justinian he was just a Roman. Anyways, to prove some exact ethnicity in antiquity of this area seems futile.

[Loki]

but for Justinian he was just a Roman.

You'll make Pontios happy ;)

[Arianiti]

Again, what makes them Albanian? Illyrians got their name from Greeks and were not even homogenous. They were mixed with Greeks, as Illyria was scattered with Greek colonies.

We were not mixed with greeks, as the name greek is not related with that time, but we were also Hellenes. If you named them, what does name Yllir mean in greek?

[Arianiti]

A proto-Vlach is my preferred term. But also, not all Vlachs are of Dacian-Romanian ultimate origin, for instance like the Vlachs of Greece. Vlachs was an exonym applied by foreigners, but for Justinian he was just a Roman. Anyways, to prove some exact ethnicity in antiquity of this area seems futile.

:lol:

[Arianiti]

Vlach in your dreams. He was Dardanian nothing else.

[wvwvw]

What does Illyrian mean in Greek?

In Greek mythology Illyrios was the youngest son of Kadmos and Harmonia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Kadmos_dragon_Louvre_N3157.jpg
Cadmus fighting the dragon. Side A of a red-figured calix-krater found in Sant'Agata de' Goti (Campania), ca. 350–340 BC. From Paestum, Louvre Museum

Kadmos founded the Greek city of Thebe. Illyrios was one of his six children.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrios

At Thebes, Cadmus and Harmonia began a dynasty with a son Polydoros, and four daughters, Agave, Autonoë, Ino and Semeli.

Illyrios is derived most likely from Lyre. He was after all the son of Harmonia. ;)

http://www.hellenes-markatos.gr/portal/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=313%3A2010-07-20-20-13-55&catid=36%3Aarthra&Itemid=59&lang=el

[Arianiti]

Ok, this is not related to topic just to show how latin expanded and became native language of many people, and that was spoken by upper classes

[Arianiti]

Maybe from Piano comes name Yllir :lol:

[el22]

That's what I've always said - that the E-V13 Y-DNA marker, common among Albanians, is ultimately of Greek colonisation origin. And could also be Thracian.

All greeks have is an unauthentic religious story wrote by themselves about themselves, which runs against hard evidence such as linguistics and genetics, just like any religious story. And not surprisingly, it comes from the church.

[el22]

In Greek mythology Illyrios was the youngest son of Kadmos and Harmonia.

And the names Zeus, Perseus, or Troy, what do they mean in greek?

[justme]

actually he was Thraco-Illyrian.

[Arianiti]

An Illyrian, Justinian was born Petrus Sabbatius in A.D. 483 in Tauresium, Dardania . Justinian's childless uncle became the Roman Emperor Justin I in A.D. 518 and adopted Justinian. Justinian's own birth-based status in society was not high enough to command respect without the imperial office, and his wife's position was even worse. His wife, Theodora, was the daughter of a bear-keeper father, an acrobat mother, and she herself is considered a courtesan.

Justinian became Caesar in 525. On April 4, 527, Justin made Justinian his co-emperor and gave him the rank of Augustus. Justinian's wife Theodora received the rank of Augusta. Then, when Justin died on August 1, 527, Justinian went from joint to sole emperor.

[justme]

An Illyrian, Justinian was born Petrus Sabbatius in A.D. 483 in Tauresium, Dardania . Justinian's childless uncle became the Roman Emperor Justin I in A.D. 518 and adopted Justinian. Justinian's own birth-based status in society was not high enough to command respect without the imperial office, and his wife's position was even worse. His wife, Theodora, was the daughter of a bear-keeper father, an acrobat mother, and she herself is considered a courtesan.

Justinian became Caesar in 525. On April 4, 527, Justin made Justinian his co-emperor and gave him the rank of Augustus. Justinian's wife Theodora received the rank of Augusta. Then, when Justin died on August 1, 527, Justinian went from joint to sole emperor.

stop being silly, he was thraco-illyrian. even in kosovo they dont deny thracian roots there, but you came up here all smart telling us otherwise.. kosovo albanians are Illyrian but also thracianss, even if we are thracian kosovo is still ours, read iliad Thracians were there looooong ago.

[wvwvw]

Zeus (Ζεύς) is the son of the Titans Cronus and Rea. He is the brother of his wife Hera, his other sisters Dimitra and Estia, and his brothers Hades, Poseidon.

Ζeus means he who gives life, from the verb ζεύγνυμι

Μερικοί ετυμολογούν το όνομά του σε σχέση με τη ζωή (~Ζευς), δηλαδή«ζωοδότης», λόγω του ότι είναι ο γεννήτορας των θεών και των ανθρώπων ή από το αρχαιοελληνικό ρήμα «ζεύγνυμι» (= βάζω κάτω από το ζυγό, υποτάσσω, συνδέω, ενώνω), επειδή ο Δίας, μετά την κατατρόπωση του πατέρα του, του Κρόνου, ανέλαβε να ενώσει ξανά τον κόσμο και να τον υποτάξει στη δική του κοσμική εξουσία.

[Arianiti]

stop being silly, he was thraco-illyrian. even in kosovo they dont deny thracian roots there, but you came up here all smart telling us otherwise.. kosovo albanians are Illyrian but also thracianss, even if we are thracian kosovo is still ours, read iliad Thracians were there looooong ago.


Stop being hysterical. I'm just bringing peices from others, they are not mine. If you have any sources that he is Illyrian and Thracian bring them.


Qetesohu, se une sthashe kurgjo, inxhe.

[justme]

Justyou, I'm just bringing peices from others, they are not mine. Ti nese mendon se eshte trako-ili, urno silli pjeset tua.

une sanet prej internetit nuk i mar, ne kosov, e dim qe jemi Dardan, edhe Thraket kan qen pjes e dardanis, ne Kosovaret jemi dardan, ilir e thrak, lexu pak Iliaden.

per sa puna e Justianit.. ai ka qen dardan thraco-illyrian.

[Arianiti]

une sanet prej internetit nuk i mar, ne kosov, e dim qe jemi Dardan, edhe Thraket kan qen pjes e dardanis, ne Kosovaret jemi dardan, ilir e thrak, lexu pak Iliaden.

per sa puna e Justianit.. ai ka qen dardan thraco-illyrian.

Ok na i sill prej librave. Ani de sille pjesen ne Iliade ku flet per thraket se mu spo me kujtohet.

[justme]

Zeus is the son of the Titans Cronus and Rea. He is the brother of his wife Hera, his other sisters Dimitra and Estia, and his brothers Hades, Poseidon.

Ζeus means he who gives life, from the verb ζεύγνυμι

Μερικοί ετυμολογούν το όνομά του σε σχέση με τη ζωή (~Ζευς), δηλαδή«ζωοδότης», λόγω του ότι είναι ο γεννήτορας των θεών και των ανθρώπων ή από το αρχαιοελληνικό ρήμα «ζεύγνυμι» (= βάζω κάτω από το ζυγό, υποτάσσω, συνδέω, ενώνω), επειδή ο Δίας, μετά την κατατρόπωση του πατέρα του, του Κρόνου, ανέλαβε να ενώσει ξανά τον κόσμο και να τον υποτάξει στη δική του κοσμική εξουσία.

all of these words also have Albanian meanings.

[justme]

cila libra? google books a...? po mos na shti me kesh... se edhe ne kosov nuk jan aq budal si ti mos me leju historin e thrakve ne kosov, krejt e dim qe thraket kan shkel e toka shqiptar

[wvwvw]

all of these words also have Albanian meanings.

Ζeus is a proto Indo-European word

[justme]

Ok na i sill prej librave. Ani de sille pjesen ne Iliade ku flet per thraket se mu spo me kujtohet.

nermal qe nuk kujtohet per ku flet homeri per thraket sepse nuk e ke lexu kur, ose nuk ke dit me lexu kur.

[justme]

Ζeus is a proto Indo-European word

i know...

[Arianiti]

Ti a din me lexu shqip. Une askund nuk e mohova qe jemi thrake ose sjemi. Une thashe qe jemi dardane. Ti qe flet keshtu bazohesh diku. Na sill dicka per me mbeshtet kete ca po thua.

[Arianiti]

nermal qe nuk kujtohet per ku flet homeri per thraket sepse nuk e ke lexu kur, ose nuk ke dit me lexu kur.



Une Iliaden inxhe e kam ne dore, edhe ate shqip. Po sille ti na trego ku flet per Traket, meqe e paske lexuar edhe po thu vet. Edhe mos i fut hundet kur nuk din, edhe ke ndi prej tjereve aty ketu fjale.
Edhe mos ha m^t me ofendu analfabete. Ti as shqip s'din, nuk shkruhe kur po kurre.

[Arianiti]

Ζeus is a proto Indo-European word

Meaning what in PIE?

[wvwvw]

Zeus (Ζεύς) in Greek is pronounced as Zevs
http://www.daimonas.com/pages/greek-pronunciation.html

Eu is pronounced as Ev so we write Eudokia, Eύα etc but we pronounce it Evdokia, Eva and so on

[Loki]

stop being silly, he was thraco-illyrian. even in kosovo they dont deny thracian roots there, but you came up here all smart telling us otherwise.. kosovo albanians are Illyrian but also thracianss, even if we are thracian kosovo is still ours, read iliad Thracians were there looooong ago.

Yes. And the Thracians were very closely related to Greeks. They were blood relatives, really.

[justme]

Une Iliaden inxhe e kam ne dore, edhe ate shqip. Po sille ti na trego ku flet per Traket, meqe e paske lexuar edhe po thu vet. Edhe mos i fut hundet kur nuk din, edhe ke ndi prej tjereve aty ketu fjale.
Edhe mos ha m^t me ofendu analfabete.

iliaden e ki byth doreve... po mos qit borrtha se nuk e ki, masi e ki shko ne index e gjoje vat... e mos dit borrtha.

you have NEVER read the iliad, homer does talk about thracians and its a well known fact.

[justme]

Yes. And the Thracians were very closely related to Greeks. They were blood relatives, really.

actually thracians were known to be red heads... as for greek relatives... most of them became hellenized, but they weren't originally greek... greeks considered them barbaric.

[Arianiti]

iliaden e ki byth doreve... po mos qit borrtha se nuk e ki, masi e ki shko ne index e gjoje vat... e mos dit borrtha.

you have NEVER read the iliad, homer does talk about thracians and its a well known fact.


I know he speaks of Thracians as Troyans allies, but where exactly since you have read the Iliad. I have book with me here and I would like to find it quickly. You have never read it, maybe heard here and there from others about it.

e Kom se s'rrej une si ti.

[justme]

I know he speaks of Thracians as Troyans allies, but where exactly since you have read the Iliad. I have book with me here and I would like to find it quickly :lol: You have never read it, maybe heard here and there from others about it.

e Kom se s'rrej une si ti.

you have never read the iliad... your only saying that now after i embarrassed you in english. as for me to prove it to you, i don't need to prove it to you, don't try and play smart when you don't have the book. this is internet you can pretend you have the book when you don't..

your funny pretending you have the book when you don't

[justme]

I know he speaks of Thracians as Troyans allies, but where exactly since you have read the Iliad. I have book with me here and I would like to find it quickly. You have never read it, maybe heard here and there from others about it.

e Kom se s'rrej une si ti.

ku kam rrejt une.... e ke qjet internet se libren nuk e ki, as shqip as anglisht.

[Arianiti]

you have never read the iliad... your only saying that now after i embarrassed you in english. as for me to prove it to you, i don't need to prove it to you, don't try and play smart when you don't have the book. this is internet you can pretend you have the book when you don't..

your funny pretending you have the book when you don't


:lol:

Ok I don't have it. You are right, I am so embarrassed. Since you have read it what does word Iliad mean.

[Arianiti]

ku kam rrejt une.... e ke qjet internet se libren nuk e ki, as shqip as anglisht.

Ti qenke shume injorante, edhe shqip sdi. Mos ma tesh.

[justme]

Ti qenke shume injorante, edhe shqip sdi. Mos ma tesh.

ma hanksh karrin une nuk di shqip.

kurkush nuk esht ma injorant se ti ketu.

[Arianiti]

ma hanksh karrin une nuk di shqip.

kurkush nuk esht ma injorant se ti ketu.


A ke ti karr a? Maje fort ne goje pra...trullqe

[HillY35]

In the artwork of these two, I notice that the eyebrows are a notable feature...there is expressed a certain "concern," I think.

[wvwvw]

Iliad means a poem about Ilion the town of Troia. It is very very likely that Trojans were Greeks. It makes no sense that a nation would make two "foreign" heros the central theme of their Epic saga.

http://www.typos.com.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=9544

[el22]

So what does Troia (and maybe Perseus if you're in mood) mean in greek?

[wvwvw]

The Trojan war was basically a civil war between Achaians, Argeians, Aioleis, Danaus (Greeks of mainland Greece) vs Trojans (Greeks of Asia Minor)

[el22]

That doesn't explain what troja means

[wvwvw]

Perseas means destroyer from the verb εκ του πέρθω = εκπορθώ, καταστρέφω (destroy)

[Arianiti]

True, Yll-ion.

[el22]

Perseas means destroyer from the verb εκ του πέρθω = εκπορθώ, καταστρέφω (destroy)

πέρθω (pértho) =/= Περσέας

Here what they mean in albanian:
words with 'e' get an 'u' in their definite form:
be => beu
ze => zeu
perse => perseu

alb: ze (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/ze%2C%20z%C3%AB) => zeu (definite) + s (by greeks) => zeus <-> eng: the voice
alb: perse (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/perse) => perseu (definite) + s (by greeks) => perseus <-> eng: the one that asks 'why'
alb: troj (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/troje) <-> eng: land / territory

zeus therefore is the thunder, the voice.

the word troje may have derived as either:
tek rroj (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/tek%20rroj) <-> (the land) where I live
or from roje (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/roje) (guard)
We mostly use it in the context of someone that defends his territory, so either the territory where I live or the territory that I guard are plausible explanations.

As in many other cases, our word coincides with the name of a place famous exactly for what our word means: a guarded/defended territory.

[wvwvw]

That doesn't explain what troja means

From Tρώς, founder of Tροία; In Greek mythology, Dardanus (Greek: Δάρδανος) was a son of Zeus and Electra, daughter of Atlas, and founder of the city of Dardania on Mount Ida in the Troad.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus (1.61–62) states that Dardanus' original home was in Peloponesse, where Dardanus and his elder brother Iasonas reigned as kings following Atlas.

Dardanus married Chryse, daughter of Pallas, by whom he fathered two sons: Idaeus and Dymas. When a great flood occurred, the survivors, who were living on mountains that had now become islands, split into two groups: one group remained and took Deimas as king while the other sailed away, eventually settling in the island of Samothrace. There Iasonas was slain by Zeus for lying with Demeter. Dardanus and his people found the land poor and so most of them set sail for Asia.

Dardanus' children by Batea were Ilus, Erichthonius, Idaea and Zacynthus. According to Dionysius of Halicarnassus Zacynthus was the first settler on the island afterwards called Zacynthus. Dardanus' sons by Chryse, his first wife, were Idaeus and Dimas. Dionysius says that Dimas and Idaeus founded colonies in Asia Minor.

[wvwvw]

alb: perse=> perseu (definite) + s (by greeks) => perseus <-> eng: the one that asks 'why'


:D

http://cdn1.raywenderlich.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rage-why.png

[Twistedmind]

Gibbon:

"The emperor Justinian was born[1] near the ruins of Sardica (the modern Sophia), of an obscure race [2] of Barbarians[3], the inhabitants of a wild and desolate country, to which the names of Dardania, of Dacia, and of Bulgaria, have been successively applied."

1.There is some difficulty in the date of his birth (Ludewig in Vit. Justiniani, p. 125.); none in the place – the district Bederiana – the village Tauresium, which he afterwards decorated with his name and splendour (D’Anville, Hist. de l’Acad. &c. tom. xxxi. p. 287–292.).

2. The names of these Dardanian peasants are Gothic, and almost English: Justinian is a translation of uprauda (upright); his father Sabatius (in Græco-barbarous language stipes) was styled in his village Istock (Stock); his mother Bigleniza was softened into Vigilantia.

3. Ludewig (p. 127–135.) attempts to justify the Anician name of Justinian and Theodora, and to connect them with a family from which the house of Austria has been derived.

Meh 18 century Historian as source? :picard1:
Justinian was born at modern Serbia, near city Lebane, where are ruins of city he built on his birthplace. Anyway, it is imposible to determine his phenootype from Mosaic.

[el22]

You see, all your explanations come from mythology itself, otherwise they are meaningless. How can possibly someone ever tell whether these explanations are right or not? They can't be falsified.
Of course the explanations have to be mythological, because the claim that they try to give life, about an ancient greek civilization, is a myth.

[el22]

:D



Personages of these stories took names from a key moment in their story.

[Manuel]

Meh 18 century Historian as source? :picard1:
Justinian was born at modern Serbia, near city Lebane, where are ruins of city he built on his birthplace. Anyway, it is imposible to determine his phenootype from Mosaic.

Scholarios mentioned what Gibbon said and I provided the precise quote from the book. Didn't use him as a source for anything.

[Arianiti]

Yll-iad, Yll-ion, Yll-ir/ian, it is all related.

[aherne]

A proto-Vlach is my preferred term. But also, not all Vlachs are of Dacian-Romanian ultimate origin, for instance like the Vlachs of Greece. Vlachs was an exonym applied by foreigners, but for Justinian he was just a Roman. Anyways, to prove some exact ethnicity in antiquity of this area seems futile.
Our people have always called themselves Romanians (using dialectal variants that trace back to Romanus). That's the accurate term!

[ChocolateFace]

Dinaric-Alpinoid

[wvwvw]

Our people have always called themselves Romanians (using dialectal variants that trace back to Romanus). That's the accurate term!

Your gypsy people have always called themselves Roma. No wonder you still are a third world country

[Scholarios]

Your gypsy people have always called themselves Roma. No wonder you still are a third world country


Why do you attack Aherne? He didn't do anything wrong or even say anything offensive?

Why are there more posts about Albanian origin of Greek language?

Why people are having a conversation in Albanian language in international part of this forum?

I wish I could "thread closed"

[Skerdilaid]

Holy shit this is what a call a good old shit storm:laugh: Only the Balkaneros.......

[morski]

Interesting on Gibbon. I knew he said something off-color about Justinian (as a lot of his commentary on Eastern Rome). An interesting point is to speculate how his birthplace can be considered so far apart as Serdica and Tauresium. If he was born in Serdica, he was almost certainly a Greek-speaker, I'd have thought- even if he was of Gothic extraction.
Wasn't Serdica North of the Irechek line. If he was from Serdica it's plausible he was native Latin speaker, i.e. aa Vlach. Serdica/Sofia is part of the triangle Sofia-Nish-Belgrad, which according to some is the area where the ethnogenesis of the modern Romanians occured.

[Scholarios]

Wasn't Serdica North of the Irechek line. If he was from Serdica it's plausible he was native Latin speaker, i.e. aa Vlach. Serdica/Sofia is part of the triangle Sofia-Nish-Belgrad, which according to some is the area where the ethnogenesis of the modern Romanians occured.

It seems to be rather borderline, but according to this map (Bulgarian-produced, I believe) it's within the Greek-speaking area.

http://www.orbilat.com/Maps/Latin/Balkan_Latin.gif

[morski]

It seems to be rather borderline, but according to this map (Bulgarian-produced, I believe) it's within the Greek-speaking area.

http://www.orbilat.com/Maps/Latin/Balkan_Latin.gif

Yep, borderline it seems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_line

[Dengizik]

He looked like this:

http://www.replikler.net/wp-content/uploads/kahpe-bizans.jpg
http://galeri5.uludagsozluk.com/4/kahpe-bizans_112715.jpg

Now classify.

[Scholarios]

Vlach in your dreams. He was Dardanian nothing else.

Who were Dardanians? Extinct people by the Late Middle Ages. Think outside your schooling. The guy was a Latin-speaking Roman. We didn't have 23andme in 5th Century. What language was spoken in Moskopolje in Albania before it was destroyed by "Dardanian" Arnauts? That was a descendant of Justinians native-language.

Please, no more deflecting. Can you explain to me why Justinian spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words. I'm serious, no more deflecting.

Not that the emperor ever intended any such thing. Born in Macedonia near the Albanian border, he was sprung from Illyrian stock, the same race that had given Rome many great emperors in the past, including Constantine the Great himself, and Justinian was to note with some pride that his native language was Latin. He was almost the last Byzantine emperor who could say this.

http://www.kroraina.com/varia/pdfs/evans_Justinian%20and%20the%20Historian%20Procopiu s.pdf

As I said, if you can consider him a "Dardanian", a people who were extinct for centuries when he was born, then I can consider him a proto-Vlach. The word "Illyrian" or "Dardanian" was not uttered once in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, a native-Latin speaker, who coincidentally also kept all his diaries in nothing but Attic Greek btw.

[Skerdilaid]

Who were Dardanians? Extinct people by the Late Middle Ages. Think outside your schooling. The guy was a Latin-speaking Roman. We didn't have 23andme in 5th Century. What language was spoken in Moskopolje in Albania before it was destroyed by "Dardanian" Arnauts? That was a descendant of Justinians native-language.

Please, no more deflecting. Can you explain to me why Justinian spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words. I'm serious, no more deflecting.

You seem to think that only Greeks kept their identity intact and other Balkaners either were Greek or spoke Latin. Things were not as black and white as you like to think. Lot of Illyrians and Thracians were bilingual until the Slav arrival, and speaking Latin and being considered a Roman was a privilege that any Balkan peasant would have been proud and boast upon it. Speaking Latin at home did not make one a Vlah the term was later introduced on some Latin speaking communities.

[Skerdilaid]

I also forgot to mention that we Albanians still carry the white cap that symbolize a freed roman citizen.

[Arianiti]

Why are there more posts about Albanian origin of Greek language?

Why people are having a conversation in Albanian language in international part of this forum?

I wish I could "thread closed"

Why shouldn't people discuss sometimes in their own language if their discussion is only between them and it is their matter. Albanians have right to discuss and say what they think as they have also an important role in the ancient times, and they were completely avoided and their significance is not recognized as yet.

It is only you Greeks that jump in each topic, as I haven't seen any Italian jumping on this.

I know this hurts you.

[Scholarios]

You seem to think that only Greeks kept their identity intact and other Balkaners either were Greek or spoke Latin. Things were not as black and white as you like to think. Lot of Illyrians and Thracians were bilingual until the Slav arrival, and speaking Latin and being considered a Roman was a privilege that any Balkan peasant would have been proud and boast upon it. Speaking Latin at home did not make one a Vlah the term was later introduced on some Latin speaking communities.

I think no such thing. I however do think national identity is largely a modern construct and that the Illyrians, ( a non-homogenous people named only so by the Greeks) were so insignificant from an identity-perspective, that not one of the so-called Illyrian emperors mentions them as his progenitors. Thracian-Illyrian languages survived until just before the Gothic and then Slavic arrivals, but in such small numbers it's impossible to speculate as to who spoke what Illyrian language when and where. As you know, we have only a handful of words. We do know, for as certain as we know anything else from Late Antiquity, that Justinian did not speak one of these as his native language.

I called Justinian as a "proto-Vlach", which, as I said is as reliable as calling him an "Illyrian" ( a term which would have been as absurd to him as Vlach). However, when the Slavs poured over his hometown in "Dardania" (an area littered with 99% Slavic names now) they would have called it's Latin-speaking inhabitants as "Vlachs" who in turn called themselves as Armanji or Rramanji. There is no need to bring Dardania, Albania, or even Illyria into this. That's all I am saying.

[Scholarios]

Why shouldn't people discuss sometimes in their own language if their discussion is only between them and it is their matter. Albaniana have right to discuss and say what they think as they have also an important role in the ancient times, and they were completely avoided and they significance is not recognized as yet.

It is only you Greeks that jump in each topic, as I haven't seen any Italian jumping on this.

I know this hurts you.

The rules of the forum are English. Keep Albanian in the Albania forum and I'll keep Greek in the Greek forum.

[Arianiti]

Who were Dardanians? Extinct people by the Late Middle Ages. Think outside your schooling. The guy was a Latin-speaking Roman. We didn't have 23andme in 5th Century. What language was spoken in Moskopolje in Albania before it was destroyed by "Dardanian" Arnauts? That was a descendant of Justinians native-language.

Please, no more deflecting. Can you explain to me why Justinian spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words. I'm serious, no more deflecting.


Have you read what I already brought. Speaking Latin doesn't make him vlach, especially at that time. Maybe you are a vlach and that's why you are so stubborn.

At what century did vlachs reach these areas, and where they exactly were located.

[Arianiti]

The rules of the forum are English. Keep Albanian in the Albania forum and I'll keep Greek in the Greek forum.

So you are a moderator now. That it is not your thing to care for, or maybe you have too much time.

[Arianiti]

Vlachs in the Balkans

Greece has by far the largest Aromanian community which numbers over 100,000, although Greek census figures are much lower. Their existence has until recently been delicate as Greece did not acknowledge the existence of national minorities within its boundaries and pursued an active policy of "ethnic homogenazation". Generally the use of minority languages has been discouraged. The main areas are the Pindus mountains, Meglan, around lake Prespa, and around the mountains of Olympus and Vermion.

Albania has the second largest Aromanian community inhabiting mostly the southern region of the country, especially around Gjirokastër and Përmeti with around 100,000 people, around 2% of the Albanian population. (Albanian Vlach villages map under construction!)

In the modern country of Macedonia the Aromanians now have a far better situation compared to the other Aromanian communities. They are represented in the Parliament and the constitution stipulates the right of national minorities to study in their own language. The main areas are around Bitola and Štip.

In Bulgaria there are Romanian speaking populations in the north, close to the border with Romania, and the Aromanian speaking population in the south, but these are not generally distinguished by Bulgarians. Both are known by the general term of Vlassi.


So there are no Vlachs in the territory we are talking about.

[Skerdilaid]

I think no such thing. I however do think national identity is largely a modern construct and that the Illyrians, ( a non-homogenous people named only so by the Greeks) were so insignificant from an identity-perspective, that not one of the so-called Illyrian emperors mentions them as his progenitors. Thracian-Illyrian languages survived until just before the Gothic and then Slavic arrivals, but in such small numbers it's impossible to speculate as to who spoke what Illyrian language when and where. As you know, we have only a handful of words. We do know, for as certain as we know anything else from Late Antiquity, that Justinian did not speak one of these as his native language.

I called Justinian as a "proto-Vlach", which, as I said is as reliable as calling him an "Illyrian" ( a term which would have been as absurd to him as Vlach). However, when the Slavs poured over his hometown in "Dardania" (an area littered with 99% Slavic names now) they would have called it's Latin-speaking inhabitants as "Vlachs" who in turn called themselves as Armanji or Rramanji. There is no need to bring Dardania, Albania, or even Illyria into this. That's all I am saying.

The Albanian language is a testament that the peasants also spoke their mother tongue. Latin was the lingua franca of the empire so off course whom ever lived in the cities most likely spoke only Latin, and only Latin was used in documents, as Thraco-Illyrian were not written languages. Hence not much record of them. We can speculate if he spoke his native tongue or not but I believe that he himself was a peasant. Most of the legions were recruited from the peasants that lived in the highlands and they were also used as mercenaries. The system of gathering mercenaries in the highlands that was used during Roman times, was active in Albania until the collapse of the Ottoman empire. The Albanians called it the Kuvend were the elders gathered decided on the events. This is also recorded by the Romans themselves and they stated that this was the customs of the Illyrians before any war. Most of the terminology that was used is actually a borrowing from early Latin. In order for people to understand how could they have used their mother tongue in midst of Rome, when most of Europe lost it's native tongues, one need to visit this regions and see for themselves.

[el22]

Who were Dardanians? Extinct people by the Late Middle Ages. Think outside your schooling. The guy was a Latin-speaking Roman. We didn't have 23andme in 5th Century. What language was spoken in Moskopolje in Albania before it was destroyed by "Dardanian" Arnauts? That was a descendant of Justinians native-language.

Please, no more deflecting. Can you explain to me why Justinian spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words. I'm serious, no more deflecting.

Not that the emperor ever intended any such thing. Born in Macedonia near the Albanian border, he was sprung from Illyrian stock, the same race that had given Rome many great emperors in the past, including Constantine the Great himself, and Justinian was to note with some pride that his native language was Latin. He was almost the last Byzantine emperor who could say this.

http://www.kroraina.com/varia/pdfs/evans_Justinian%20and%20the%20Historian%20Procopiu s.pdf

This is interesting. Skanderbeg writing that his ancestors were the epiriotes doesn't count, even if his witting is per-reviewed (at least by another prince) and is about one millennium more recent than Justiniani, however Justiniani's words that he "spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words." settles it.
Btw, does this authentic testimony of Justiniani of what was his native language exists, and where can we find it?


As I said, if you can consider him a "Dardanian", a people who were extinct for centuries when he was born, then I can consider him a proto-Vlach. The word "Illyrian" or "Dardanian" was not uttered once in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, a native-Latin speaker, who coincidentally also kept all his diaries in nothing but Attic Greek btw.

So, was the PIE uttered at least once in the writings of Marcus Aurelius (or anybody else before the 19-th century), because there are a lot of people that are convinced that it existed and is the ancestor of Greek and Latin?

[Scholarios]

Skenderbeg in an argument about Illyrian Romans. With the exception of Skerdiliad, you guys are no fun. All deflections, no answers. What's the difference between you and Hellenas? At least Hellenas has a sense of humor.

Peer-reviewed proof that Skenderbey was an Epirote. Whew.

[ABest]

Now, why would this thread be 12 pages long?

[Scholarios]

Skerdiliad- you know very well as I do that there is no precise definition of what the Illyrian language was- and in fact that it was a group of related and unrelated tongues, of which Albanian is the descendent ( probably) of one of those languages. How this means Justinian=Albanian is about as realistic to me as Heraclius was a Hellene or Saladin was a Chaldean. I. E. it makes as much sense as most else on here.

Arianati and el22- start another thread on Albanian ethnogenesis if you want...

[el22]

Skenderbeg in an argument about Illyrian Romans. With the exception of Skerdiliad, you guys are no fun. All deflections, no answers. What's the difference between you and Hellenas? At least Hellenas has a sense of humor.

Peer-reviewed proof that Skenderbey was an Epirote. Whew.

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:


Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting.
...
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

You see, Skanderbeg himself talks about the Albanese as 'his people', and that their elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from.

And this letter is part of a dialogue he had with another guy. So it's not a monologue. Now, where is the writing of Justiniani where he says that he "spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words."?

[Scholarios]

What does Skanderbeg romanticism have to do with this?

On Justiniana Prima, see Procopius, De aedificiis, 4.15-28. Justinian's native language was Latin, which he calls his ancestral tongue in Nov. 13 (535 AD)

http://webu2.upmf-grenoble.fr/DroitRomain/Corpus/Novellae.htm

[el22]

What does Skanderbeg romanticism have to do with this?

On Justiniana Prima, see Procopius, De aedificiis, 4.15-28. Justinian's native language was Latin, which he calls his ancestral tongue in Nov. 13 (535 AD)

http://webu2.upmf-grenoble.fr/DroitRomain/Corpus/Novellae.htm

So, whatever Skanderbeg wrote is irrelevant, because he was "romantic", even though the content of his letter is not challenged as such by his contemporaries. However, what another guy who lived one millennium before Skanderbeg supposedly said (because there isn't any authentic document to backup this) is true. You certainly have an interesting system to sort out what's more trustful.

I think you've done well to put that phrase "generalization, impartiality, generalization." in your signature. Now all you need to do is put it in use.

[Scholarios]

Cool. Another deflection. Sorry to soil your articles of faith ( again)

[el22]

Cool. Another deflection. Sorry to soil your articles of faith ( again)

All you do is put some conclusions: we == deflection, Skanderbeg == romanticist; as if you're some sort of truth-authority. Anyone can arrive at conclusions, provided facts and a reasonable connection of them is available.
So, help me arrive at the same conclusions as you. What exactly makes Skanderbeg's letter dismissible? After all it is more recent and it was part of a correspondence. And where are the authentic writings of Justiniani about what was his native language?
Providing a satisfying answer to these questions then anyone may or may not arrive at the same conclusions as yours.

[morski]

All you do is put some conclusions: we == deflection, Skanderbeg == romanticist; as if you're some sort of truth-authority. Anyone can arrive at conclusions, provided facts and a reasonable connection of them is available.
So, help me arrive at the same conclusions as you. What exactly makes Skanderbeg's letter dismissible? After all it is more recent and it was part of a correspondence. And where are the authentic writings of Justiniani about what was his native language?
Providing a satisfying answer to these questions then anyone may or may not arrive at the same conclusions as yours.

Once upon a time the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan claimed in a letter to the Pope to be descedned from the Ancient Romans. :D

[el22]

Once upon a time the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan claimed in a letter to the Pope to be descedned from the Ancient Romans. :D

Did he claimed about himself alone, or about all Bulgarians? Because Skanderbeg was not talking about himself. A pope, or another prince, can't possibly assert whether a certain individual of noble family descends from X or Y, however, whether an entire people are descendants of X or Y is something that can be laughed at with more confidence if it's well know to be false.

[MelinusMargos]

He looks Pontic med + Dinarid + alpinid to me. Looks bulgarian to me.

[morski]

Did he claimed about himself alone, or about all Bulgarians? Because Skanderbeg was not talking about himself. A pope, or another prince, can't possibly assert whether a certain individual of noble family descends from X or Y, however, whether an entire people are descendants of X or Y is something that can be laughed at with more confidence if it's well know to be false.

The letter I refer to was written around the turn of the 13th century. Kaloyan was talking about himself, but either way the claim is complete bull.

[el22]

The letter I refer to was written around the turn of the 13th century. Kaloyan was talking about himself, but either way the claim is complete bull.

Well, then your example is more analogous with Justiniani claiming that his native language was Latin. In both cases someone is claiming something about himself. How can possibly others assert or deny such things?

Skanderbeg on the other hand was not talking about personal details.


Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgia Albanese, greeting
...
You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (ne?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.

You have avoided the onslaught of the Turks, and not having the power to defend your own house, have thought to invade other peopled s. You are deceitful. Instead of a new house you are looking for your grave.

Goodbye


Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting.
...
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.


You see, Pope couldn't possibly know the origin of each noble family, however, the prince of Taranto could know (and if not, could ask someone else) that Greeks were the descendants of Epiriotes and reply:

What? Epiriotes? Haha! Skanderbeg you're such a joke! Everybody knows that Greeks are the descendants of Epiriotes.

Needles to say that he certainly had the motivation to laugh at Skanderbeg, as the first letter shows.

[wvwvw]

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:



You see, Skanderbeg himself talks about the Albanese as 'his people', and that their elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from.

And this letter is part of a dialogue he had with another guy. So it's not a monologue. Now, where is the writing of Justiniani where he says that he "spoke and used Latin, not only as a a lingua franca, but as his native tongue, according to his own words."?

Of course he was his people, he was their ruler :rolleyes:

I find it ludicrous that you claim as Albanian someone who is not even Albanian, and at the same time you deny Greeks from Northern Epirus their Greekness.

If Skanderbeg is Albanian then Arvanites are 1000 times Greeks not 1, because unlike Skanderbey who was half Serb, they were Greek by blood. Skanderberg mother's name was VojSLAVA and Kastriotis is a pure Greek name. He was the product of Greek culture. Not to mention that he considered himself to be descendant of Alexander the Great and Pirros the Epirot. Epirotes have always been Greek, and Greeks have had a presence in Epirus since Ancient times. There is still a Greek minority there.

So if he considered himself descendant of Pirros (a Greek) you can bet that he considered himself Greek.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Epirus234bc.jpg

[el22]

Of course he was his people, he was their ruler :rolleyes:

I find it ludicrous that you claim as Albanian someone who is not even Albanian, and at the same time you deny Greeks from Northern Epirus their Greekness.

If Skanderbeg is Albanian then Arvanites are 1000 times Greeks not 1, because unlike Skanderbey who was half Serb, they were Greek by blood. Skanderberg mother's name was VojSLAVA and Kastriotis is a pure Greek name. He was the product of Greek culture. Not to mention that he considered himself to be descendant of Alexander the Great and Pirros the Epirot. Epirotes have always been Greek, and Greeks have had a presence in Epirus since Ancient times. There is still a Greek minority there.

So if he considered himself descendant of Pirros (a Greek) you can bet that he considered himself Greek.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Epirus234bc.jpg

Yes, but he talks about Albanese, his race, that descend from Epiriotes. No Greeks mentioned anywhere.
And his surname is Kastrioti. The 's' is appended by you when you import words in Greek. The same thing with Pirro and Epir. If we would import these words from Greek we would have them as Pirrosi and Epirosi (appending an 'i'), but we have them in the shortest version, because they are our words.

[morski]

Well, then your example is more analogous with Justiniani claiming that his native language was Latin. In both cases someone is claiming something about himself. How can possibly others assert or deny such things?



Easily. Kaloyan was removed from classical Rome by a millenium, while Justinian's claim to be native Latin speaker would have been easily dismissed by actual Latin speaking contemporaries if it was false.

[wvwvw]

Wrong he talks about himself and the people he ruled over. After his death his son came to Greece from Italy "to fight for his people" the Greeks. Kastriotis is not an Albanian name it is a very Greek name, and the fact that he thought he descended from Pyrros, spoke Greek, had a Greek wife etc shows that he is the product of Greek culture. I know that his mother was Serb, whether his father was Albanian or Greek I don't know, but the fact remains it is highly hypocritical to call him Albanian and at the same time deny the Greekness of the Arvanites. Albanians do not descend from Ancient Epirotes. Greek Epirotes as well as Arvanites and the other Greeks of Northern Epirus do.

[el22]

Easily. Kaloyan was removed from classical Rome by a millenium, while Justinian's claim to be native Latin speaker would have been easily dismissed by actual Latin speaking contemporaries if it was false.

How could possibly his contemporaries be certain what his mother-tongue language was?
But first we need an authentic confession of Justiniani that he was an native Latin speaker.

[Twistedmind]

But first we need an authentic confession of Justiniani that he was an native Latin speaker.

He stated it numerous times in his edicts, you simpleton. Besides, his verry name was Latin to start with, same as that of his uncle Justin I and his mother Vigilantia. :D

[morski]

How could possibly his contemporaries be certain what his mother-tongue language was?
But first we need an authentic confession of Justiniani that he was an native Latin speaker.

Would you be able to detect a foreigner speaking Albanian?

Is this guy a native English speaker according to you?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKWXjuwYno

[el22]

Wrong he talks about himself and the people he ruled over. After his death his son came to Greece from Italy "to fight for his people" the Greeks. Kastriotis is not an Albanian name it is a very Greek name, and the fact that he thought he descended from Pyrros, spoke Greek, had a Greek wife etc shows that he is the product of Greek culture. I know that his mother was Serb, whether his father was Albanian or Greek I don't know, but the fact remains it is highly hypocritical to call him Albanian and at the same time deny the Greekness of the Arvanites. Albanians do not descend from Ancient Epirotes. Greek Epirotes as well as Arvanites and the other Greeks of Northern Epirus do.

Actually he doesn't talk about himself, because it's not him that is attacked:
- Giovanni Antonio: we respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies;
- Skanderbeg: you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep...you have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans.

The subject is not Skanderbeg himself. If Skanderbeg was from Epirus but Albanians not, they still were like sheep, which is what Skanderbeg was proving wrong.

[el22]

Would you be able to detect a foreigner speaking Albanian?

Is this guy a native English speaker according to you?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKWXjuwYno

I'm not very good with foreign languages myself, but I can guarantee you that albanian girls for example speak english and italian in an indistinguishable way. Actually there are several italian sell-by-phone companies here that have hired thousands of girls. And I've known an Amerikan who spoke albanian in an indistinguishable way. Bringing samples of someone who doesn't speak good english can't prove that it's impossible for any foreigner to speak english like a native. Furthermore, Italians are penalized because they use less letters than english, however we use all letters english uses plus some more, and have no difficulty with either english or italian.

[morski]

I'm not very good with foreign languages myself, but I can guarantee you that albanian girls for example speak english and italian in an indistinguishable way. Actually there are several italian sell-by-phone companies here that have hired thousands of girls. And I've known an Amerikan who spoke albanian in an indistinguishable way. Bringing samples of someone who doesn't speak good english can't prove that it's impossible for any foreigner to speak english like a native. Furthermore, Italians are penalized because they use less letters than english, however we use all letters english uses plus some more, and have no difficulty with either english or italian.

There's always tell-tales. No such thing as a foreigner speaking a second language as a native unless they are actually bilingual. Anyway, why would Justinian lie about his native language, what would he gain from such an act? Just accept that he was a Proto-Vlach and that's that. Even if he had something to do with the native Balkan populations there were no Albanians back at that time, so Albanians claiming Justinian was one of them is like Slavo-Macedonians claiming Alexander the Great was one of them. Stupidity beyond redemption.

[el22]

There's always tell-tales. No such thing as a foreigner speaking a second language as a native unless they are actually bilingual. Anyway, why would Justinian lie about his native language, what would he gain from such an act? Just accept that he was a Proto-Vlach and that's that. Even if he had something to do with the native Balkan populations there were no Albanians back at that time, so Albanians claiming Justinian was one of them is like Slavo-Macedonians claiming Alexander the Great was one of them. Stupidity beyond redemption.

Actually, as I've shown in many cases, Italian / Latin has thousands of words with albanian origin, including 'dio', 'diavolo', 'angelo', 'cristo', 'chiesa', 'inferno', 'genio', 'stato', 'amico', 'nemico', 'armi', 'oro', 'argento', etc. So albanians not merely existed, but were influential in the roman empire. And I'm waiting for some link to some authentic script from Justiniani talking about his mother-tongue.

And we (not me, girls mostly) can speak perfect english or italian, just like it's spoken in tv.

[morski]

Actually, as I've shown in many cases, Italian / Latin has thousands of words with albanian origin, including 'dio', 'diavolo', 'angelo', 'cristo', 'chiesa', 'inferno', 'genio', 'stato', 'amico', 'nemico', 'armi', 'oro', 'argento', etc. So albanians not merely existed, but were influential in the roman empire. And I'm waiting for some link to some authentic script from Justiniani talking about his mother-tongue.

And we (not me, girls mostly) can speak perfect english or italian, just like it's spoken in tv.

That just doesn't sound serious, but suit yourself.

[el22]

That just doesn't sound serious, but suit yourself.

Why doesn't sound serious? Pick any of them, and bring yours or someone else explanation of how it originated, and I'll provide how it originated from albanian for comparison, and let's see which sounds less serious.

[morski]

When was Albanian first attested in writing?

[wvwvw]

Actually he doesn't talk about himself, because it's not him that is attacked:
- Giovanni Antonio: we respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies;
- Skanderbeg: you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep...you have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans.

The subject is not Skanderbeg himself. If Skanderbeg was from Epirus but Albanians not, they still were like sheep, which is what Skanderbeg was proving wrong.

So let me get this straight. First fyromians claim Macedonians a Greek tribe as their own, now Albanians claim another Greek tribe the Epirots, as their own because a person who is not even Albanian claimed to be descendant of Purros. :rolleyes:

Fact is the region that is now Southern Albania had a large ethnic Greek presence there that Albanians did everything to destroy. Most of them have now emigrated abroad or have emigrated to Greece, although there is still a Greek minority in Albania. They have never considered themselves anything other than Greek, spoke Greek, (even Arvanitophones were fluent in both their native language Greek and Arvanite), and preserved Greek traditions. Same goes for Greek Vlachs who are indigenous to Greece since forever. Until the 12th century Albanians used to live far above the Juresik line . it is also very likely that they came from Caucasus.

Point is, you cannot claim something that is not yours as yours. The fact that Ancient Epirotes and Macedonians were Greeks is not disputed by any serious Historian. The fact that there has been a continuous Greek present in those regions for at least 3000 years is not disputed either. Albanians and Slavs can not possible lay claim on Ancient Greek heritage simply because they a)They are newcomers to the region b) they have no linguistic or cultural ties to Ancient Greeks.

Just because you *think* that you *may* be related to Ancient Greeks because you think Slavs or Albanians *may* have mixed with Ancient Greeks does not make your claim more legitimate. With the same logic I could claim ancient Thraces, Illyrians, Romans etc as Greeks too because we *may* have mixed with them. But it would be silly to claim them as part of my cultural heritage when I have no proven linguistic or cultural ties to them. You cannot claim to be descendant of Ancient Greeks and at the same time not speak their language, disparage them at every chance i.e calling them gays, or feel no connection to Greece. :rolleyes2:

[Twistedmind]

Actually, as I've shown in many cases, Italian / Latin has thousands of words with albanian origin, including 'dio',
Latin Deus, cognate with Vedic Diaus Poter. Attested in Latin, well from 7th century BC :D



'diavolo',
Greek διάβολος - acurserer. Ps its



'angelo',
Greek ἄγγελος - messanger.



'cristo',
From Latin Christus, from Greek Χριστός annoited.



'chiesa',
From lattine ecclesia from Greek ἐκκλησία, those who are called.
Rest also have pretty simple etimology. :D Albanian similar words are acctually influence of Italian on Albanian, not other way arround.



So albanians not merely existed, but were influential in the roman empire. And I'm waiting for some link to some authentic script from Justiniani talking about his mother-tongue.
Rotfl.
Albanian was recorde 1600 AD for the first time. First mention of Albanians is arround 1018 AD, how they could influence Latin language which was first time recorded in 8th century BC. Concerning "linking", go in library and ask for some copy of Justinian's Novels, you would be surprised what was written there. BTW, first you say you are not good with languages, how you could rea Latin then?

[el22]

When was Albanian first attested in writing?

When was PIE first attested in writing? Certainly the idea of PIE (not the language itself) was never heard before the 19-th century, and still a lot of people are convinced that it is the ancestor of Greek and Latin among others.

[morski]

When was PIE first attested in writing? Certainly the idea of PIE (not the language itself) was never heard before the 19-th century, and still a lot of people are convinced that it is the ancestor of Greek and Latin among others.

So, PIE is now Albainan too? That's something!:D

[Twistedmind]

When was PIE first attested in writing? Certainly the idea of PIE (not the language itself) was never heard before the 19-th century, and still a lot of people are convinced that it is the ancestor of Greek and Latin among others.

PIE could be reconstructed from Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Avestani Church Slavonic...
Albanian, on other hand could not be reconstructed from anything whatsoever, no sources, no mentions, not child languages... So we must believe that language with no traces whatsoever existed and was language of half of dozen of Ancient civilisations... :D

[el22]

The fact that Ancient Epirotes and Macedonians were Greeks is not disputed by any serious Historian.

Actually, even your historians have to acknowledge that the Greek identity is formed less than two centuries ago, but you consider them as enemies payed by albanians. Anyway, you have a story, something falsifiable (and falsified), while we have more robust evidence, such as the fact that our language has supplied italian / latin with thousands of words, even basic ones.

[wvwvw]

Actually, even your historians have to acknowledge that the Greek identity is formed less than two centuries ago, but you consider them as enemies payed by albanians. Anyway, you have a story, something falsifiable (and falsified), while we have more robust evidence, such as the fact that our language has supplied italian / latin with thousands of words, even basic ones.

The Greek identity did not have to be created, we had an Empire for more than 1000 years. Bulgarians too had their own Empire, same with Serbs. The only nation with an Ottoman identity was Albania so a new "Illyrian" identity had to be created. We didn't have to fake anything because we had a past, linguistic, cultural and historical links to our past. You didn't :rolleyes:

[el22]

PIE could be reconstructed from Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Avestani Church Slavonic...
Albanian, on other hand could not be reconstructed from anything whatsoever, no sources, no mentions, not child languages... So we must believe that language with no traces whatsoever existed and was language of half of dozen of Ancient civilisations... :D

Actually it is PIE that is never heard, no sources, no mentions whatsoever. It is a modern time invention. By the time the idea of PIE was articulated for the first time, albanian already existed as written. Needless to say that no people speaks PIE today, either.

PIE was invented after the observation that there were some similarities between italian and greek, and therefore these languages should have borrowed these common words from some other language. Even though the PIE was invented purposely to explain the origin of certain italian and greek words, it gives less satisfying results than albanian, as I've shown in many cases.
I've opened a thread about this, and we can continue this conversation there. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?82237-Indo-European-words-that-originate-in-Albanian)

[Arianiti]

PIE could be reconstructed from Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Avestani Church Slavonic...
Albanian, on other hand could not be reconstructed from anything whatsoever, no sources, no mentions, not child languages... So we must believe that language with no traces whatsoever existed and was language of half of dozen of Ancient civilisations... :D

Do you know how old Church Slavonic language is? Not more than 11 centuries as you Slavs became Christians only at 9-10 century. Church Slavonic is a liturgical language. A sacred language, "holy language" (in religious context), or liturgical language, is a language that is cultivated for religious reasons by people who speak another language in their daily life. This is how your language was developed in 19 century by Russia. You stole from here and there and created servian lang.

Latin is a dead language, old Greek is dead. They all survive in Albanian language.

[el22]

So, PIE is now Albainan too? That's something!:D

PIE is not albanian. PIE is a joke, that you can have fun with, until it's debunked.

[Twistedmind]

Do you know how old Church Slavonic language is? Not more than 11 centuries as you Slavs became Christians only at 9-10 century. Church Slavonic is a liturgical language. A sacred language, "holy language" (in religious context), or liturgical language, is a language that is cultivated for religious reasons by people who speak another language in their daily life. This is how your language was developed in 19 century by Russia. You stole from here and there and created servian lang.

Latin is a dead language, old Greek is dead. They all survive in Albanian language.

Relax napaćeni brate, dont spread lies about language of your ancestors.

Anyway, OCS is certainly older than 11 centuries which would you claculate if you would know to use calculator, and older than Albanian for sure. :D

[morski]

PIE is not albanian. PIE is a joke, that you can have fun with, until it's debunked.

Not as tasteless a joke as Albanian providing loanwords to Latin, though.

[el22]

Not as tasteless a joke as Albanian providing loanwords to Latin, though.

Well, I've provided comparisons between PIE based etymology and albanian for several words in this thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?82237-Indo-European-words-that-originate-in-Albanian), you can check for yourself what explanation is more ridiculous.

[wvwvw]

Latin is a dead language, old Greek is dead. They all survive in Albanian language.

Old Greek has evolved into Modern Greek but it is still remarkably close to Ancient Greek.

[morski]

Well, I've provided comparisons between PIE based etymology and albanian for several words in this thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?82237-Indo-European-words-that-originate-in-Albanian), you can check for yourself what explanation is more ridiculous.

Without primary sources older than the high MA nad the Ottoman period everything regarding the origin of Albanians and their language is pure speculation. As simple as that. So, for the last time, Justinian I simply could not have been an Albanian.

[el22]

Latin Deus, cognate with Vedic Diaus Poter. Attested in Latin, well from 7th century BC :D
What does 'deus' mean? How did it originate? What is God after all?
God punishes - not always
God forgives - not always
God guides - not always
God knows - always, everything. This is what God is, and we even have the expression "God knows".

alb: di (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/di) <-> eng: know
Italian appends an 'o' to many words, oro, argento, amico, nemico, etc.
alb: di + o => ital: dio, the one who knows. The main attribute of God.


Greek διάβολος - acurserer. Ps its
Apart the fact that διάβολος(diávolos) can't possibly be the root of 'diavolo', the devil is not an acurserer. The devil is hot,
We use djall (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/djall)for devil, a word that we have derived from the word diell (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/diell) (sun).
alb: djall => djal => djavolo.
Our word is the shortest, as the roots are supposed to be. And we have expressions like 'shko mbrapa diellit' (go behind the sun) and 'shko ne djall' (go in devil) that testify that for us the devil was behind the sun, the hottest place we could think of.


Greek ἄγγελος - messanger.

Again ἄγγελος (ángelos) can't be the root. However:
alb: angjell (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/engjell)=> angel
The word angjell itself is formed as "a ngjall" <= "asht ngjall" <= "eshte ngjall (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/eshte%20ngjall)" <-> eng: is resurrected


From Latin Christus, from Greek Χριστός annoited.

From lattine ecclesia from Greek ἐκκλησία, those who are called.
Rest also have pretty simple etimology. :D Albanian similar words are acctually influence of Italian on Albanian, not other way arround.


You see, if someone was given the task to write a software which derives albanian words from latin/italian or greek (or PIE for that matter) would be impossible, because sometimes we seem to keep the 's' but sometimes we map it in 'sh'; sometime we keep the 'l', but sometime we map it in 'll'; sometime we keep the 'g', but sometime we map it in 'gj'; sometime we keep the 'r' but sometime we map it in 'rr', etc.
There is no way to write such algorithm because these capricious choices follow no rule.

The opposite however would be quite trivial. Italian uses less letters than albanian, and maps the missing ones to their closest:
sh => s
s => s
ll => l
l => l
gj => g
g => g
etc.

[el22]

Without primary sources older than the high MA nad the Ottoman period everything regarding the origin of Albanians and their language is pure speculation. As simple as that. So, for the last time, Justinian I simply could not have been an Albanian.

This is more true for PIE. It's existence is pure speculation. Albanian however exists (because it is spoken by several million people) and it certainly wasn't invented the day before it was attested for the first time.

[Arianiti]

Relax napaćeni brate, dont spread lies about language of your ancestors.

Anyway, OCS is certainly older than 11 centuries which would you claculate if you would know to use calculator, and older than Albanian for sure. :D

ha ha ha ha lol

The only liar here is you.

You hardly have 30 sounds/letters, while Albanian language has more than 40 sounds, though we have 36 letters. So how could we develop these sounds if our language is not actually the PIE, and the oldest in the region and Europe.

[Twistedmind]

What does 'deus' mean? How did it originate? What is God after all?
God punishes - not always
God forgives - not always
God guides - not always
God knows - always, everything. This is what God is, and we even have the expression "God knows".
God lives on heaven, and it as derived from word for heaven :D Ancient Latins worshiped heaven :D
Main attribute of God is that He is (exists) ;)



Apart the fact that διάβολος(diávolos) can't possibly be the root of 'diavolo', the devil is not an acurserer.

Diavolos cant be root of diavolo lol. There is just one sound ommited. Besides, devil is precisely that, acuserer slanderr, he slanded human kind :D Now you are lacking basic logic.




alb: djall => djal => djavolo.
Our word is the shortest, as the roots are supposed to be. And we have expressions like 'shko mbrapa diellit' (go behind the sun) and 'shko ne djall' (go in devil) that testify that for us the devil was behind the sun, the hottest place we could think of.

Devil's time of day is night. How his name could be related to Sun :bored:



Again ἄγγελος (ángelos) can't be the root.
How? It is taken from New Testement, which is, surprisingly written in guess which language? Greek. :D
Angel is being which was sent from God, to publish God's will to humankid.

Not single word you mentioned could be derived from Albanian, and means nothing in Albanian.

[el22]

God lives on heaven, and it as derived from word for heaven :D Ancient Latins worshiped heaven :D
Main attribute of God is that He is (exists) ;)

heaven is paradiso, and paradiso is certainly not the root of Dio.


Diavolos cant be root of diavolo lol. There is just one sound ommited. Besides, devil is precisely that, acuserer slanderr, he slanded human kind :D Now you are lacking basic logic.

When you derive a word from a root, the obtained word is longer than the root, not shorter. And in any case, if you go outside and ask random people: what is devil? is he hot or is he acuserer? Almost anyone will say 'it's hot'. And we don't even need to do this imaginary experiment, all movies portray devil as hot. We even have the expression "burn in hell". What is the widely spread expression that captures the 'acuserer' spirit of devil?


Devil's time of day is night. How his name could be related to Sun :bored:

Well, sun is the hottest place ancient could thought of, and what better place could be for devil's home?



How? It is taken from New Testement, which is, surprisingly written in guess which language? Greek. :D
Angel is being which was sent from God, to publish God's will to humankid.

If greek angelos is the origin, and it means messenger, than the word for 'message (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#en/el/message)' would be what?


Not single word you mentioned could be derived from Albanian, and means nothing in Albanian.

Actually the explanations from albanian satisfy all these conditions:
- Our words are the shortest, as roots are supposed to be.
- They require few transformations, and this makes them more reliable than PIE explanations that require heavy transformations.
- Even those few transformations are generally predictable: we use more letters and the missing ones have to be substituted with other letters close to them. So this transformations can generally be expressed in the form of a few rules.
- Our words in many cases can be decomposed in a meaningful way in other shorter words, which makes them reliable starting points.
- And unlike PIE, our language is real.

[wvwvw]

The verb διαβάλλω diavalo means 'slander' in Greek. A commonly used word
http://biblesuite.com/greek/1225.htm



If greek angelos is the origin, and it means messenger, than the word for 'message' would be what?

Αγγελιοφόρος Αggelioforos
foros=bringer from ferno φέρνω to bring

Aggelia=announcement
Appaggelo= read aloud
Anaggelo=announce and so on

Message=μήνυμα minima
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/μήνυμα

[Twistedmind]

heaven is paradiso, and paradiso is certainly not the root of Dio.
Paradiso is, guess what paradise, while heaven here is not state of blessed existance, but literaly sky. Stop making retarded connection please.




When you derive a word from a root, the obtained word is longer than the root, not shorter.
Such rule does not exist, due to mayn phonetic changes present in all existing languages on Earth. Bessides, diavolo is borrowed word, not word derived from Greek word. You clearly demonstrate lack of any knowledge of any grammar. Root of word diavolo is Greek verb βάλλω (I throw)


And in any case, if you go outside and ask random people: what is devil? is he hot or is he acuserer? Almost anyone will say 'it's hot'. And we don't even need to do this imaginary experiment, all movies portray devil as hot. We even have the expression "burn in hell". What is the widely spread expression that captures the 'acuserer' spirit of devil?
This is hilarious, self proclaimed atheist from traditionaly Muslim country tryng to explain to magister of Theology what is devil. :D
Sorry, but I am pretty sure I am better veresd what Devil is than you.



Well, sun is the hottest place ancient could thought of, and what better place could be for devil's home?


Because Devil is said to live in eternal darkness? Dont you think your "explaination" sounds idiotic at best?




If greek angelos is the origin, and it means messenger, than the word for 'message (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#en/el/message)' would be what?
Nothing. Its loandwoard.

PS
Ancient Greek and Modern Greek are not same thing, nor is Google translate, being statistic engine, of any use in etymology. :D

Also, take a notice of word άγγελμα (anglema) :D






- They require few transformations, and this makes them more reliable than PIE explanations that require heavy transformations.

Lol, they require entire galiamtias of conditions, so far that it sounds impossble even to dare to think about such outcome.




- Our words in many cases can be decomposed in a meaningful way in other shorter words, which makes them reliable starting points.

Not. All "decompositions" alck any sense.


- And unlike PIE, our language is real.

And unlike Greek have nothing with mentioned words.

[wvwvw]

:valknut

[el22]

The verb διαβάλλω diavalo means 'slander' in Greek. A commonly used word
http://biblesuite.com/greek/1225.htm

diavállo =/= diávolos

And besides, these words originated from the same language. Let's compare the Greek vs. Albanian case:
GREEK:
θεός (theós) => dio
διάβολος (diávolos) => diavolo
άγγελος (ángelos) => angelo
κόλαση (kólasi) => inferno
παράδεισος (parádeisos) => paradiso
εκκλησία (ekklisía) => chiesa

ALBANIAN:
di (know) + o => dio
diall => dial => diavol + o => diavolo
angjell => angel + o => angelo
ferr => fer => in fer + o => inferno (in french: en fer)
parajs <-> paradis + o => paradiso
kisha => kisa => kiesa == chiesa

Alabnian words are shorter than italian, while greek are longer. And those few transformations from albanian are predictable and explainable, italian uses less letters and therefore maps sh => s; gj => g; ll => l

[Twistedmind]

diavállo =/= diávolos
Good morning, first is verb, second noun derived from verb. ;)

διάβολος (diávolos) => He who slander men
άγγελος (ángelos) => Messanger
κόλαση (kólasi) => inferno is from Latin infernum, and is utterly unrelated to Greek word.
παράδεισος (parádeisos it should be red paradisos Genius ;) ) => Garden with walls, guarded Garden... Who ever read Genesis, will find word pretty self explainatory.
εκκλησία (ekklisía) => Place where thos who are called gatther? :D Christians are called by God to inherrit Kingodm of Heaven. ἐκ "out" and καλέω "I am calling", ἐκκαλέω I summon, I call together.

[wvwvw]

Οι λέξεις Δίας και Ζευς[Επεξεργασία]



Aπεικόνιση του Αγάλματος του Ολυμπίου Διός.
Ο Δίας ονομαζόταν στα Αρχαία Ελληνικά Ζευς, λέξη που στη γενική πτώση ήταν του Διός, (σπανιότερα του Ζηνός), απ' όπου προήλθε και η νεοελληνική ονομασία. Σχετικά με την ετυμολογία των λέξεων αυτών υπάρχουν οι παρακάτω απόψεις:

Προέρχονται από το αρχαιοελληνικό δίος, που σημαίνει λαμπρός.

Προέρχονται από την Ινδοευρωπαϊκή ρίζα *Dyēus, που σύμφωνα με τους γλωσσολόγους έδωσε ακόμα την ελληνική λέξη Θεός, το Λατινικό Deus, το Βεδικό Dyaus, το Γερμανικό Tiwaz και άλλες λέξεις σχετικές με το θείο.
Για τον Ι.Θ. Κακριδή το όνομα βρίσκεται και σε άλλους ινδοευρωπαϊκούς λαούς, τους Ινδούς, τους Όμβρους, τους Λατίνους κ.α. Το όνομά του ανάγεται στην ρίζα div-, που σημαίνει ουρανός. Η έκφραση Ζευς πατήρ αντιστοιχεί στο Diespiter (Juppiter) των Ρωμαίων, το Jupater των Όμβρων και το Dyaus Pita των αρχαίων Ινδών


From ancient Greek dios which means Bright

[wvwvw]

θεός (theós) => dio

dio is the root for θεός

[el22]

Paradiso is, guess what paradise, while heaven here is not state of blessed existance, but literaly sky. Stop making retarded connection please.

Our word para (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/para), as well as our word paraja (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/paraja), both mean 'money'. (I can explain even how we came to this word, but I'll do it in the other thread)
from paraja => parajsa (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#sq/en/parajsa)<-> heaven
That's what heaven was for us, the place where you have all the money you want (because we're materialist people)

In a similar way, the english word 'heaven' originated as:
have => haven => heaven (the place where you heave everything)


Such rule does not exist, due to mayn phonetic changes present in all existing languages on Earth. Bessides, diavolo is borrowed word, not word derived from Greek word. You clearly demonstrate lack of any knowledge of any grammar. Root of word diavolo is Greek verb βάλλω (I throw)

Well, of course, before people were able to understand the movement of the planets in the sky, they were thought of moving just like that, without any rules. The lack of rules in this case speaks for a poorly constructed theory.

So, βάλλω (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#el/en/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89)(vállo) (I throw) is a better explanation? How come? It's neither similar, nor conveys any intuitive meaning for what devils is known. This is obviously a desperate attempt to find an connection with some other word in greek.


This is hilarious, self proclaimed atheist from traditionaly Muslim country tryng to explain to magister of Theology what is devil. :D
Sorry, but I am pretty sure I am better veresd what Devil is than you.

Well, if I was muslim I'll probably knew more about theology than now, however, almost anyone has heard expressions such as "burn in hell" and has an idea of devil as someone hot, but not anyone thinks of devil as a curserer or "I throw".


Because Devil is said to live in eternal darkness? Dont you think your "explaination" sounds idiotic at best?

The devil lives in a hot place, and it makes perfect sense that this hot place be somewhere behind the sun. No one has ever seen how it is behind the sun, so it could very well be dark. The important thing is that there is the hottest thinkable place.


Nothing. Its loandwoard.
PS
Ancient Greek and Modern Greek are not same thing, nor is Google translate, being statistic engine, of any use in etymology. :D

Also, take a notice of word άγγελμα (anglema) :D

anglema =/= ángelos. These seem like latter inventions based on the idea that angelos was 'messenger'
Greeks have other words for message (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#en/el/message)


Lol, they require entire galiamtias of conditions, so far that it sounds impossble even to dare to think about such outcome.
Not. All "decompositions" alck any sense.
And unlike Greek have nothing with mentioned words.

The simplest explanation wins.

[el22]

Good morning, first is verb, second noun derived from verb. ;)

διάβολος (diávolos) => He who slander men
άγγελος (ángelos) => Messanger
κόλαση (kólasi) => inferno is from Latin infernum, and is utterly unrelated to Greek word.
παράδεισος (parádeisos it should be red paradisos Genius ;) ) => Garden with walls, guarded Garden... Who ever read Genesis, will find word pretty self explainatory.
εκκλησία (ekklisía) => Place where thos who are called gatther? :D Christians are called by God to inherrit Kingodm of Heaven. ἐκ "out" and καλέω "I am calling", ἐκκαλέω I summon, I call together.

So let me get this straight. From this small set of related concepts, some words went from greek to latin, and some others from latin to greek? How do you explain this interesting phenomena?

And what linguistic rules one has to follow to obtain chiesa from εκκλησία (ekklisía)? They neither look alike, nor are spelled alike.

And from where infernum comes?

[wvwvw]

Also, take a notice of word άγγελμα (anglema)

Άγγελμα is pronounced Aggelma not Anglema

also diaggelma διάγγελμα = a message, notice
http://lsj.translatum.gr/wiki/διάγγελμα

[Scholarios]

The devil lives in a hot place, and it makes perfect sense that this hot place be somewhere behind the sun. No one has ever seen how it is behind the sun, so it could very well be dark. The important thing is that there is the hottest thinkable place.

You do understand that the devil "living in a hot place" is entirely a modern notion, right? however, the notion of "the enemy" is millenia old and pan-religious.

Will you ever get over your 101isms?

[Philo]

Hey Horatio can I get my post thanked too?

[el22]

You do understand that the devil "living in a hot place" is entirely a modern notion, right? however, the notion of "the enemy" is millenia old and pan-religious.

Will you ever get over your 101isms?

"Burn in hell". This is the expression that best captures the essence of the biblical punishment. What should be the expression that best captures the essence of the Devil as "I throw", "slanderer" or "curserer" ?

[Turkophagos]

Between 6th and 11th century the Empire became Greek. The laws were written in Greek. Texts, books hymns were all written in the greek language. Some emperors were Greeks. The trade was mainly controled my the Greeks. The greek language had totally won the Latin one and it became the official language of the Empire. After the 6th century the Empire could be renamed as Greek Empire.


You're right, the Greek period of the Byzantine empire starts with the reign of the emperor Heraclius specifically.

[Smeagol]

Hey Horatio can I get my post thanked too?

Yes.

[Philo]

Yes.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6721389824/hA00C480C/

[Scholarios]

"Burn in hell". This is the expression that best captures the essence of the biblical punishment. What should be the expression that best captures the essence of the Devil as "I throw", "slanderer" or "curserer" ?

If you think a modern English idiom dating from the Protestant revolution has any bearing on etymology...oh wait..

Oh-yev(Hebrew) and ekthros(Greek) are both used to describe evil and the tempter in the Bible...they mean "enemy" Did you know Judas is also referred by this same title in the Bible? A better translation than enemy for o diavlos is actually "accuser" rather than enemy. This is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Satan, accuser, opposer, etc. He is also referred to as antidikos (your enemy) (1 Peter 5:8)

Nowhere is o Diavlos described as in fire etc. Your etymology is entirely based on saturday morning animations and hollywood films.

You know, you might get more sympathy for your theories if you could actually admit when you are wrong. This is one of those times when you are not only wrong, but downright wallowing in your ignorance.

[Twistedmind]

That's what heaven was for us, the place where you have all the money you want (because we're materialist people)
Hm, and whats need of money in Paradise? :D



Well, of course, before people were able to understand the movement of the planets in the sky, they were thought of moving just like that, without any rules. The lack of rules in this case speaks for a poorly constructed theory.

You know my dog is jumping when he hears music...



So, βάλλω (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#el/en/%CE%B2%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%89)(vállo) (I throw) is a better explanation? How come? It's neither similar, nor conveys any intuitive meaning for what devils is known. This is obviously a desperate attempt to find an connection with some other word in greek.

Dia vallo - I slander, diavolos slanderer. Cristaly clear. :)




Well, if I was muslim I'll probably knew more about theology than now, however, almost anyone has heard expressions such as "burn in hell" and has an idea of devil as someone hot, but not anyone thinks of devil as a curserer or "I throw".

Like Scholarios mentioned burn in hell is just Protestant phantasmogory, and not really of any use in lingusitics. If you take omething relevant, like New or Old Testament you will read, Devil live in dark, not in hot place. So, your reasoning is compleltly irrelevant for everything.






anglema =/= ángelos. These seem like latter inventions based on the idea that angelos was 'messenger'

So?





Greeks have other words for message (http://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sq&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&text=naughty#en/el/message)
Google translate is not any kind of argument. And those other words, do not say anything for your ideas.



The simplest explanation wins.
It is foolish guessing not simplest explainaition. Not even of your "examples" bears any logic in it.

[el22]

If you think a modern English idiom dating from the Protestant revolution has any bearing on etymology...oh wait..

Oh-yev(Hebrew) and ekthros(Greek) are both used to describe evil and the tempter in the Bible...they mean "enemy" Did you know Judas is also referred by this same title in the Bible? A better translation than enemy for o diavlos is actually "accuser" rather than enemy. This is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Satan, accuser, opposer, etc. He is also referred to as antidikos (your enemy) (1 Peter 5:8)

Nowhere is o Diavlos described as in fire etc. Your etymology is entirely based on saturday morning animations and hollywood films.

You know, you might get more sympathy for your theories if you could actually admit when you are wrong. This is one of those times when you are not only wrong, but downright wallowing in your ignorance.

That's fine. I'm aiming for the general audience (the one raised with Saturday morning animations and Hollywood films). If my explanations sound reasonable to them, I'll live it to the bible specialists the burden to explain to this audience that all movies and Saturday morning animations got it wrong, and that Devil is instead a "curserer", "slanderer" or someone that "throws".

[quaquaraqua]

Dinaro-east med:confused:

[el22]

Hm, and whats need of money in Paradise? :D

Religion promised to the poor what he was lusting for. In a developed enough society where things were obtained with money, it promised all the money they wanted. To the "barbarians" in the north :D that hadn't developed yet the idea of money, the promise came in the form of "the place where you have everything" - have => haven => heaven.


You know my dog is jumping when he hears music...

Dia vallo - I slander, diavolos slanderer. Cristaly clear. :)

Like Scholarios mentioned burn in hell is just Protestant phantasmogory, and not really of any use in lingusitics. If you take omething relevant, like New or Old Testament you will read, Devil live in dark, not in hot place. So, your reasoning is compleltly irrelevant for everything.

So?

Google translate is not any kind of argument. And those other words, do not say anything for your ideas.

It is foolish guessing not simplest explainaition. Not even of your "examples" bears any logic in it.

I wouldn't mind to continue in the tradition of replying to every single counterargument, but the above seems more like babbling and I can't extract any clear thought out of them.

[Twistedmind]

Religion promised to the poor what he was lusting for. In a developed enough society where things were obtained with money, it promised all the money they wanted. To the "barbarians" in the north :D that hadn't developed yet the idea of money, the promise came in the form of "the place where you have everything" - have => haven => heaven.

Heaven and Paradise are not same thing. Like always everythign is wrong in your reasoning, starting premise, assitive premisses and finaly conclusions.



but the above seems more like babbling and I can't extract any clear thought out of them.
Its not my fault you assorted to mindless babbling and you are unable to express your tougths.

[el22]

Heaven and Paradise are not same thing. Like always everythign is wrong in your reasoning, starting premise, assitive premisses and finaly conclusions.


I understand that in the eye of the specialist the distinction is quite clear. However I'm targeting the broad audience, for whom:

heav·en (https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&q=deti%20jon%20map&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.Yms&biw=1536&bih=760&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=DY7RUafXCeaN4ATwqoCIAg#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:+heaven&oq=define:+heaven&gs_l=serp.3...904201.906238.17.906934.14.9.0.0.0.0 .0.0..0.0...0.0.0..1c.1.17.serp.aNbOuMRh2XY&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.bGE&fp=b18e25868ed36331&biw=1536&bih=760)
/ˈhevən/
Noun
A place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally...
God (or the gods).
Synonyms
sky - paradise - firmament - welkin

par·a·dise (https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&q=deti%20jon%20map&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.Yms&biw=1536&bih=760&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=DY7RUafXCeaN4ATwqoCIAg#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:+paradise&oq=define:+paradise&gs_l=serp.3..0l10.82977.84045.20.84422.8.6.1.0.0.0 .1065.1779.6-1j1.2.0...0.0.0..1c.1.17.serp.VyBdGiIkNLo&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.bGE&fp=b18e25868ed36331&biw=1536&bih=760)
/ˈparəˌdīs/
Noun
(in some religions) Heaven as the ultimate abode of the just.
The abode of Adam and Eve before the Fall in the biblical account of the Creation; the Garden of Eden.
Synonyms
heaven - eden

[Twistedmind]

I understand that in the eye of the specialist the distinction is quite clear. However I'm targeting the broad audience, for whom:

heav·en (https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&q=deti%20jon%20map&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.Yms&biw=1536&bih=760&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=DY7RUafXCeaN4ATwqoCIAg#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:+heaven&oq=define:+heaven&gs_l=serp.3...904201.906238.17.906934.14.9.0.0.0.0 .0.0..0.0...0.0.0..1c.1.17.serp.aNbOuMRh2XY&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.bGE&fp=b18e25868ed36331&biw=1536&bih=760)
/ˈhevən/
Noun
A place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally...
God (or the gods).
Synonyms
sky - paradise - firmament - welkin

par·a·dise (https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&q=deti%20jon%20map&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.Yms&biw=1536&bih=760&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=DY7RUafXCeaN4ATwqoCIAg#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:+paradise&oq=define:+paradise&gs_l=serp.3..0l10.82977.84045.20.84422.8.6.1.0.0.0 .1065.1779.6-1j1.2.0...0.0.0..1c.1.17.serp.VyBdGiIkNLo&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.bGE&fp=b18e25868ed36331&biw=1536&bih=760)
/ˈparəˌdīs/
Noun
(in some religions) Heaven as the ultimate abode of the just.
The abode of Adam and Eve before the Fall in the biblical account of the Creation; the Garden of Eden.
Synonyms
heaven - eden
What English word has to do with your phantasy that Ancient Greeks were Albanians? Stop making idiot of your self. Heaven is derived from pan-Germanic root heben-sky.

Paradise, if you ever red the Bible, was "garden in far land on East" not place on sky.

[el22]

What English word has to do with your phantasy that Ancient Greeks were Albanians? Stop making idiot of your self. Heaven is derived from pan-Germanic root heben-sky.

Paradise, if you ever red the Bible, was "garden in far land on East" not place on sky.

My previous post was a copy+paste of google's preferred dictionary. If they're making an idiot of themselves, you're right to get mad, but I doubt your honest effort to correct all these widely spread (unfortunately) biblical misunderstandings is very effective here.

[Twistedmind]

My previous post was a copy+paste of google's preferred dictionary.
Hardly an argument in philology, since Google, his dictionaries, translate tool etc are just statistic engines.. ie, they just take word or data mentioned most time. Its not etymological dictionary.



If they're making an idiot of themselves, you're right to get mad, but I doubt your honest effort to correct all these widely spread (unfortunately) biblical misunderstandings is very effective here.
It is not problem how spread misudnerstandings are, but problem is you used falsed started premise to establish hypotetic Albanian origin of entire group of Greek words. All, taht words are Greek, paradisos and angelos being borrowed from Persian, while rest have painfully clear Greek etymology. (dia vallo I slander, ek kaleo I call together... etc)

[Scholarios]

What English word has to do with your phantasy that Ancient Greeks were Albanians? Stop making idiot of your self. Heaven is derived from pan-Germanic root heben-sky.

Paradise, if you ever red the Bible, was "garden in far land on East" not place on sky.

This is what happens when your whole culture is erased by a " Dardanian" Kim Jong Il named Enver Hoxha who refused to even let Albanians name their children John, Sofia, or George. Their heads can be filled with just about anything. These Albanian nationalists have been totally wiped of their culture and have zero context or common ground with the rest of Europe, sadly. The fact that " Paradise" has
a context outside of English " heaven" didnt even occur to him.

I mean, he actually literally believes or says he believes that the origin of the word devil is the Albanian word for fire. A human being actually said that. I have to keep going back and looking at it to make sure I didn't imagine it.

[Géza]

This is obivious. He and his wife, Theodora were Alpine with Dinarid about the imaginations of their. They were Balkanics, hence it is not so surprising.