Fae Wicca

[Gooding]

My wife's more knowledgable about this than I am, but here are some ideas to work with. Fae Wicca focusses, as do other forms of Wicca, on the Divine as Male and Female in the guise of the God and Goddess, which in turn are manifested in the various pantheons of the world.It's up to the individual Wiccan to choose which pantheon(s) he/she prefers. Fae Wicca, or the Fae Craft, utilizes the aid of the Fae, or Fairy Folk, in their Esbats, Sabbats and everyday life. They usually choose an animal familiar to work with. Here is a link that can explain things more thoroughly and my wife will be monitoring the thread to answer any questions that members might have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faerie_faith

[Mrs. G]

Thanks hon for that vote of confidence. I will try to answer everyones questions to the very best of my availability.

[Puddle of Mudd]

What's the point in believing in this stuff, is what I want to know?

[Mrs. G]

The same point whe you said that you are a Soldier of Jeebus.

[Puddle of Mudd]

The same point whe you said that you are a Soldier of Jeebus.

I'm an atheist, this is a mock title.

[Psychonaut]

As a preface, let's get the not so pleasant bits out of the way. Wicca was created in the 30s by Gerald Gardner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner). Back when it was created, many people were duped into believing that it was an actual continuation of some actual pagan practices secretly preserved from pre-Christian times. This, however, was not the case at all. The rituals are clearly simplified modifications of those of the Golden Dawn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn) (written by S.L. MacGregor Mathers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Liddell_MacGregor_Mathers)) which were taught to Gardner during his tenure in the Ordo Templi Orientis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientis) of Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley). Similarly, it's theology is a hodge podge of Theosophical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy) notions, simplistic misunderstandings about Tantric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra) duotheism, all under a pseudo-European facade of the Horned God and the Goddess (which, Dr. Stephen Flowers contends in Witchdom of the Tru is a gross misunderstanding of the cults of Freyr and Freyja).

Knowing this, why does one choose Wicca as a mode of religious expression? I can certainly sympathize with the pagan impulse as I am myself a Heathen, but why adopt a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one that has actual historical roots? Certainly Heathenry is not free from innovation; no religion is. However, the very heart of Wicca is a patchwork that just screams 19th century mythography. There's a whole generation of Wiccans who have ignored the actual pagan traditions of the world in favor of the fiction Graves presents in The White Goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Goddess). Why?

[Mrs. G]

If it were not for the wiccan pioneers in the 30's and 40's as well as scholars, please be aware that the Heathen Faith is largely built on interpretaions of the scholars and that practices came out of Steve Mcnallen and other founders of the Asatru faith. Much of the speculation that you accuse wicca of can be applied to few heathen scholars of today.

[Psychonaut]

please be aware that the Heathen Faith is largely built on interpretaions of the scholars and that practices came out of Steve Mcnallen and other founders of the Asatru faith.

That is entirely incorrect. The reconstruction of Germanic Heathenry began in the early 1800s in Germany and Austria.

[Mrs. G]

Here is a link that will give you more about the origins of Asatru. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asatru
After about 1800 OR 1900 years the revival cannot claim to be directly decended from that of the Norse Religion. The Eddas themselves were translated by Christian Monks with a christian slant. The Eddas are the base for modern Norse Religion. And unlike many Asatru today who are practically Aethist in theology the Wiccan's truly believe in the Gods that they choose to work with.

[Psychonaut]

Here is a link that will give you more about the origins of Asatru. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asatru
After about 1800 OR 1900 years the revival cannot claim to be directly decended from that of the Norse Religion. The Eddas themselves were translated by Christian Monks with a christian slant. The Eddas are the base for modern Norse Religion. And unlike many Asatru today who are practically Aethist in theology the Wiccan's truly believe in the Gods that they choose to work with.

a). This thread is not about Heathenry's origins or justifications, it's supposed to be about Wicca's, right? ;)

b). No one claims unbroken descent of Heathen practice, which is why we sometimes call it Germanic Reconstructionism.

c). Most Heathens are not Atheists. Studies have, of course, not been done, but I don't recall meeting many folks in the Heathen community at all who I'd term Atheists. Having a non-absolutist perspective on theology does not an Atheist make.

[Mrs. G]

Then Y bring up your religion and try to justify it on a Wiccan Thread?

[Electronic God-Man]

Then Y bring up your religion and try to justify it on a Wiccan Thread?

I don't think he really did. He only said this:


I can certainly sympathize with the pagan impulse as I am myself a Heathen, but why adopt a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one that has actual historical roots? Certainly Heathenry is not free from innovation; no religion is.

[Psychonaut]

Then Y bring up your religion and try to justify it on a Wiccan Thread?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I mentioned Heathenry as one point of contrast, not as a silver bullet. I'm much less interested in talking about Heathenry here and more interested in hearing your answer to:


Why does one choose Wicca as a mode of religious expression?


Why adopt a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one that has actual historical roots?

[Mrs. G]

But he did bring up his religion.

[Electronic God-Man]

But he did bring up his religion.

Only to say that he more or less understands where you are coming from...yet wants to know why you choose a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one with historical roots.

The main point was:


Why adopt a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one that has actual historical roots?

[Mrs. G]

The what Question do you have. This is a thread that deals with Question on Wicca. Some of what you said about wicca is correct but not all of it.
The answer to the fist Question is that it is a religion like most that has a certain pull on some people.
Nis try but we are talking about Wicca and not Heathenry.I follow my religion just like you do yours because it feels right to me and it helps me in my daily life.

[Gooding]

Then Y bring up your religion and try to justify it on a Wiccan Thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Let's try to keep to topic and work on this step by step.In reality, Wicca does borrow and utilize various concepts of different cultures and has a universalist outlook, much as the Hindus. Unfortunately, in the polytheistic community, Wicca has a disreputable reputation because of their open borrowing and reinterpretation of various cultural concepts, which some find to be unacceptable.Fortunately, the American Constitution guarantees freedom of religion..as much to Wiccans as to anyone else.

[Electronic God-Man]

The what Question do you have. This is a thread that deals with Question on Wicca. Some of what you said about wicca is correct but not all of it.
The answer to the fist Question is that it is a religion like most that has a certain pull on some people.
Nis try but we are talking about Wicca and not Heathenry.I follow my religion just like you do yours because it feels right to me and it helps me in my daily life.

I think Psychonaut had a legitimate question about Wicca and Wiccans. :)

[Nodens]

I think Psychonaut had a legitimate question about Wicca and Wiccans. :)

A question that is being wholly avoided.

[Mrs. G]

How do you think that the question is being avoided.

[Electronic God-Man]

How do you think that the question is being avoided.

...you don't answer his question. :confused:

[Psychonaut]

Some of what you said about wicca is correct but not all of it.

What, specifically?


The answer to the fist Question is that it is a religion like most that has a certain pull on some people.
Nis try but we are talking about Wicca and not Heathenry.I follow my religion just like you do yours because it feels right to me and it helps me in my daily life.

So, would you say that any religion that "feels right" is an appropriate religion to practice? If an African tribal religion feels right to me, I should go for it? Is religion purely a private matter, or does it extend into the familial and social spheres as well? I ask this because Wicca stands alone. It is not connected to any kind of ethno-cultural identity and is an intentionally constructed monolith that draws in an ethnically diverse crowd. Should a function of religion not be to assist in ethnic cohesion? This was certainly the case in our ancestors' day. The tribal faith was an integral aspect of their identity as a people. With faiths like Wicca that are open to all who wish to practice it, irrespective of ethnicity, that religious function is, like in the Abrahamic faiths, lost entirely. Are you comfortable with this?

[Gooding]

A question that is being wholly avoided.

Here's my thought as to a good answer to the question.She doesn't give a shit about endless scholarly argument, or Wiccan/heathen feuding. Why choose such a path? She feels like it.Period.It sings to her and she follows her bliss in the best way she can.Wicca is hardly the only constructed religion out there, but it is the path she's chosen and that's why she chose to pursue a thread. She honors the spirits of the land with the tools she's been given.She follows the Fae Wiccan path and favors the Greek and Egyptian pantheons, in whose myths she finds meaning. Her heart is deeply bound up in her faith and she'll follow it and defend it. My wife will not stand alone here, as she's defended my faith several times.Why do people follow Voudou or Santeria?Their hearts are touched by it..Wicca does make her feel her connection to the land and she's a devoted and sincere Wiccan. Let's face it, her religion is hers.Ethnicity and tribalism is meaningless in her worldview, as she follows a different structure.

[Electronic God-Man]

Here's my thought as to a good answer to the question.She doesn't give a shit about endless scholarly argument, or Wiccan/heathen feuding. Why choose such a path? She feels like it.Period.It sings to her and she follows her bliss in the best way she can.Wicca is hardly the only constructed religion out there, but it is the path she's chosen and that's why she chose to pursue a thread. She honors the spirits of the land with the tools she's been given.She follows the Fae Wiccan path and favors the Greek and Egyptian pantheons, in whose myths she finds meaning. Her heart is deeply bound up in her faith and she'll follow it and defend it. My wife will not stand alone here, as she's defended my faith several times.Why do people follow Voudou or Santeria?Their hearts are touched by it..Wicca does make her feel her connection to the land and she's a devoted and sincere Wiccan.

True enough, Gooding, and I don't believe a soul here would argue against that, but when she started a thread she asked for all inquiry. As it turns out, some people have questions to ask of her. No one asks her to let go of her true feelings. People only want to understand.

[Mrs. G]

What, specifically?



So, would you say that any religion that "feels right" is an appropriate religion to practice? If an African tribal religion feels right to me, I should go for it? Is religion purely a private matter, or does it extend into the familial and social spheres as well? I ask this because Wicca stands alone. It is not connected to any kind of ethno-cultural identity and is an intentionally constructed monolith that draws in an ethnically diverse crowd. Should a function of religion not be to assist in ethnic cohesion? This was certainly the case in our ancestors' day. The tribal faith was an integral aspect of their identity as a people. With faiths like Wicca that are open to all who wish to practice it, irrespective of ethnicity, that religious function is, like in the Abrahamic faiths, lost entirely. Are you comfortable with this?

Yes I believe that if you truly belive in what the religion teaches then it should be open to those who want to follow it. We are not living in the past and I believe tha all religions be they Abrhamic or not should be open to everyone, not just a certain few. Yes I am comfortable with it. Thanks for asking.

[Psychonaut]

Ethnicity and tribalism is meaningless in her worldview

And that's what I was getting at. This is the case with most Wiccans since their theology is universal in nature.


Yes I believe that if you truly belive in what the religion teaches then it should be open to those who want to follow it.

So...Celtic Polytheism for all the Africans who want it? Hooray! :(

[Mrs. G]

Then please ask questions Seuthanan and do not come at me like I am doing something wrong. Because I might take it that way.

[Electronic God-Man]

Then please ask questions Seuthanan and do not come at me like I am doing something wrong. Because I might take it that way.

:confused:

I haven't asked anything. I only mean to learn.

I can learn from any person that makes a solid argument.

[Mrs. G]

And that's what I was getting at. This is the case with most Wiccans since their theology is universal in nature.

Very True. You also need to realize that there are some Wiccans out there that do not believe this. I am one that does but there are many that have different views.:)
My husband is holding a blot and will let me answer for a while.

[Mrs. G]

:confused:

I haven't asked anything. I only mean to learn.

I can learn from any person that makes a solid argument.

That is true as well. If you ever have a question please feel free to ask it. :):D

[Psychonaut]

You also need to realize that there are some Wiccans out there that do not believe this.

Really? I didn't think any of the Wiccan divisions was concerned with ethnicity. Which ones are you referring to?

[Mrs. G]

Really? I didn't think any of the Wiccan divisions was concerned with ethnicity. Which ones are you referring to?

I do not know the certain groups. I am only certain that there probably are. If I get any more information on this I will gladly let you know. OK.:):D

[Psychonaut]

I do not know the certain groups. I am only certain that there probably are.

Excuse me if I remain skeptical. I've been to dozens of large (100+ people) Wiccan/Neopagan gatherings in my day, and every single one was about as racially diverse as you could ask for.

[Mrs. G]

Excuse me if I remain skeptical. I've been to dozens of large (100+ people) Wiccan/Neopagan gatherings in my day, and every single one was about as racially diverse as you could ask for.

You have every right to remain skeptical. I don't mind at all, but not every Wiccan is attached to a Coven or Circle. I am a solitary which means that I do many of my rituals by myself. There are lots of Solitary Wiccans out there that are unjustly catagorized with the ones in Covens and Circles. I would ask that you please try not to do this when you come upon any other Wiccans.:):D:thumb001:

[Psychonaut]

You have every right to remain skeptical. I don't mind at all, but not every Wiccan is attached to a Coven or Circle. I am a solitary which means that I do many of my rituals by myself. There are lots of Solitary Wiccans out there that are unjustly catagorized with the ones in Covens and Circles. I would ask that you please try not to do this when you come upon any other Wiccans.:):D:thumb001:

OK, lemme revisit a previous question while I've got you here:


Why adopt a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one that has actual historical roots?

[Mrs. G]

OK, lemme revisit a previous question while I've got you here:

I have answered that question multiple times. My answer will always be the same. It is a religion that makes me feel good and I feel like I belong. I was also called to the religion. Whether it has historical roots or not should not play a factor in the choice of religion that I choose to follow.

[Psychonaut]

I have answered that question multiple times. My answer will always be the same. It is a religion that makes me feel good and I feel like I belong. I was also called to the religion. Whether it has historical roots or not should not play a factor in the choice of religion that I choose to follow.

So, the historicity of a religion doesn't matter at all? A church of Micky Mouse is just as valid as Hinduism? I'm not trying to be a jackass, I'm just wanting to make sure that I understand you completely.

[Gooding]

I have answered that question multiple times. My answer will always be the same. It is a religion that makes me feel good and I feel like I belong. I was also called to the religion. Whether it has historical roots or not should not play a factor in the choice of religion that I choose to follow.

Good enough, honey.I'm very proud of your spirited defence and explanation of your religion.Can we please go to bed now?

[Mrs. G]

So, the historicity of a religion doesn't matter at all? A church of Micky Mouse is just as valid as Hinduism? I'm not trying to be a jackass, I'm just wanting to make sure that I understand you completely.

The historical points are important but not as important as how I feel.
:D

[Mrs. G]

Good enough, honey.I'm very proud of your spirited defence and explanation of your religion.Can we please go to bed now?

Yes Andy lets go to bed. Night every one I will answer more questions tomorrow.

[Psychonaut]

The historical points are important but not as important as how I feel.
:D

In what way are they important? If they are, at all, then why adopt a religion whose history begins in the 1930s?

[Electronic God-Man]

In what way are they important? If they are, at all, then why adopt a religion whose history begins in the 1930s?

Why choose a religion that begins in the 1800's? :D

[Psychonaut]

Why choose a religion that begins in the 1800's? :D

http://www.sevennationarmy.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/millhouse.jpeg

[Electronic God-Man]

http://www.bustatoons.com/blog_images/blog_got_ya_now.jpg

[Gooding]

Why choose a religion that begins in the 1800's? :D

That's a fair question.I think people who follow a religion of any stripe do so for peace of mind and to find a sense of meaning to their lives, be it Asatru, Wicca,
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism,or whatever.Some people might just have a vague sense of a Higher Power and they choose their religion to solidify and attempt to define that sense. Radicals of any religion are the ones that make life difficult for all of us and they smear the religion they claim to follow. I'll never call an Al Qaeda terrorist a Muslim, nor will I call Fred Phelps a Christian.Usually, sincere followers of religion are just trying to mind their own business and live their lives as they see fit for them, without interference from the outside.The structure is there and those who fit into said stucture tend to find peace and contentment.

[Germanicus]

That's a fair question.I think people who follow a religion of any stripe do so for peace of mind and to find a sense of meaning to their lives, be it Asatru, Wicca,
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism,or whatever.Some people might just have a vague sense of a Higher Power and they choose their religion to solidify and attempt to define that sense. Radicals of any religion are the ones that make life difficult for all of us and they smear the religion they claim to follow. I'll never call an Al Qaeda terrorist a Muslim, nor will I call Fred Phelps a Christian.Usually, sincere followers of religion are just trying to mind their own business and live their lives as they see fit for them, without interference from the outside.The structure is there and those who fit into said stucture tend to find peace and contentment.

In 1979 Roberts moved to Atlanta, Georgia, where he met a woman named Epona. Roberts taught her the lessons he had written while with McFarland, and Epona became a high priestess and the founder of the "Eponian" branch of the McFarland Dianics - what is now known as the Faerie Faith.[citation needed] Roberts most likely took the name for this new tradition from The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries by W.Y. Evans-Wentz, published in 1911 . This book is an oral history and describes a variety of folk beliefs and practices, many still extant at the time the book was written. Though Roberts's "Faerie Faith" may draw inspiration from some of the customs practiced among the ancient and modern Celts, it shares more with other modern Wiccan traditions than with the "Fairy Faith" as it is known in traditional Gaelic culture.[4]

In Goodings defense i would say Mark Roberts has studied and researched everything to revive the ancient beliefs....:)

[Óttar]

Should a function of religion not be to assist in ethnic cohesion?
I sympathize with the vast majority of your argument, but I have to chime in here. The Hellenistic mystery cults were not ethnocentric. At first, anyone who could speak Greek could participate in them. Later on this extended to anyone who was a citizen of the Empire i.e. a highly diverse crowd. I expect the response to this to be something about the Empire degenerating and making the way for a degenerate mystery cult like Christianity, but the pagan mystery cults were moving toward a more organized structure, it was just simply not achieved before the world was robbed of Caesar Julian the Faithkeeper AKA the Apostate by a Persian arrow in 363 CE. :(

I think my distaste for Wicca is taking the significance of deities out of their proper context, and interpreting them in a "sugary" cleaned up way to suit an ideology. For example, how feminists co-opt the image of the goddess Kali as a tool to represent women smashing patriarchy or some other such bunk.

See the book Is the Goddess a Feminist? about the context and misappropriation of Hindu goddesses, especially Durga and Kali.

I also have distaste with how Wiccans consistently waste their time attempting to justify their religion to Christians and other ignorant people in terms of what they are not i.e. "We don't worship Satan. Satan was made up by Christians etc." As a matter of fact, I have a distaste for Wiccans justifying their religion to Christians at all. Christians are not going to change their minds, they have an agenda.

The religion of Caesar, the religion of the ancients was essentially complete in and of itself. It has no need of glitter, crystal balls, unicorns, pink crap, or other tomfoolery. To see how intense the ancient religion was on its own merit, see the Classic books on the Greeks and Romans, also Lucan, and Apuleius for a better understanding of ancient pan-Mediterranean religion, their practices, beliefs, and structures are preserved in the text.

[Nodens]

Should a function of religion not be to assist in ethnic cohesion?

At the very least social and political cohesion.


like in the Abrahamic faiths

Excepting Judaism.


I sympathize with the vast majority of your argument, but I have to chime in here. The Hellenistic mystery cults were not ethnocentric. At first, anyone who could speak Greek could participate in them. Later on this extended to anyone who was a citizen of the Empire i.e. a highly diverse crowd. I expect the response to this to be something about the Empire degenerating and making the way for a degenerate mystery cult like Christianity, but the pagan mystery cults were moving toward a more organized structure, it was just simply not achieved before the world was robbed of Caesar Julian the Faithkeeper AKA the Apostate by a Persian arrow in 363 CE. :(

Much of the function of Religio Romano was the justification of political power. I think it would be useful to draw a distinction between the religion (as philosophy/ritual) and the mythology. While many philosophical systems may be universally applicable, mythology is always localized. It would therefore be possible (though in some cases rather odd) for one to maintain ones ancestral pantheon, but still adopt a universalist philosophical system (e.g. Taoism, Confucianism, Neoplatonism, etc.). The problem with some universalist systems like Christianity or Wicca is that they come with their own mythologies/pantheons and require rejection of one's own.


I think my distaste for Wicca is taking the significance of deities out of their proper context, and interpreting them in a "sugary" cleaned up way to suit an ideology. For example, how feminists co-opt the image of the goddess Kali as a tool to represent women smashing patriarchy or some other such bunk.

See the book Is the Goddess a Feminist? about the context and misappropriation of Hindu goddesses, especially Durga and Kali.

I would also point out that the blending of pantheons practiced by many Wiccans is misguided and inevitably leads to redundancies (I only need one Thunderer, be he Thor, Zeus or Perun).


I also have distaste with how Wiccans consistently waste their time attempting to justify their religion to Christians and other ignorant people in terms of what they are not i.e. "We don't worship Satan. Satan was made up by Christians etc." As a matter of fact, I have a distaste for Wiccans justifying their religion to Christians at all. Christians are not going to change their minds, they have an agenda.

we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills,
we shall never surrender.

[Psychonaut]

I sympathize with the vast majority of your argument, but I have to chime in here. The Hellenistic mystery cults were not ethnocentric.

True, but just like the Monistic Indian schools, these were quite late developments that arose out of an already cosmopolitan and multicultural society.

[Gooding]

Here's a question for my wife:
What role do the Fae play in your day to day life?

[Mrs. G]

That is a good question honey. The fae play a huge part of my life. They help me in making sure that I stay happy whether I am at work or at home., and when I do get sad, angry or any other emotion they help me to deal with the situation. I may not see them but I know that they are always all around. "Protecting me and my family" if you will. As well as the Supreme God and his Angels.

[Gooding]

Thank you. Another question I have is this..do you perform your rites indoors, outdoors, or both? What kind of offerings do you make to your deities? Are there specific books about your gods and goddesses that you particularly enjoy reading and that you draw inspiration from?

[Mrs Ulf]

Faith is what you feel to be true in your heart.

Following a tradition or religion based on what society thinks will never give you any satisfaction. If it means that you'll be pushed away from the majority to follow your heart then so be it.

Every faith has started with one person, every reconstruction has begun because of a single movement. I feel no need to bring down others who find hope and morals in their path. Doesn't matter what I feel about it or how you feel.

That feeling of being connected is singular. What we do in our own lives to find solace in the vastness of it all is our own business. Be it Wiccan, Heathanism, Christianity....

We only hope to find a a group where we can connect to those who share the same thoughts. Beliefs can change, its about finding what makes you feel comfortable. The endless search for something to explain it and make us whole.

Even if your explanation is that nothing exists, then you have found solace in the emptiness, and have done enough searching to feel comfortable with that.

[Jägerstaffel]

I don't find solace in the emptiness. I find it at the bottom of a bottle.

[Mrs. G]

Thank you Mrs. Ulf for what you just said. You are certainly right about how it is the persons own business about what religion the follow.

I do my rites more inside than outside. I could do them outside if it was required. The offerings that i use are Incense and certainherbs. there is no killing of animals at all. Most Wiccans do not do anything like that. We mainly like to use Herbs in most of the things that we do. Any book that calls to me I will take things from and get knowledge on how to do things better from. I hope that this helps you understand it better.

[Gooding]

Do you recommend any books for me to read so I can better understand your religion?

[Mrs. G]

I have some that if you want to read them I will let you borrow. Thank you for asking that question.

[Gooding]

"Exploring Wicca", by Lady Sabrina and "Origins of Modern Witchcraft" by Ann Moura, huh? I'll start those tomorrow.Thank you, Fräulein.:)

[Mrs. G]

Your Welcome Hon. I have others that you can read as well. I need to find them though.

[Gooding]

This first one actually looks rather interesting.So, it's pretty much a duotheistic expression of Nature worship.

[Mrs. G]

In the rites that I do I always honor bothn the God and Goddess since they are two halves of one whole. My question to everyone is are Gooding and I going to be the main ones on this thread. If so then why did He and i start it in the first place. I now that the answer will be to ask questions but so far the only one who has asked me questions about the Wiccan faith and what it stands for is Gooding.

[Gooding]

The reason for this thread is to answer questions, not pander to an agenda. I think we've got several people who'd love to ask more questions, but if the questions are rather dormant right now, perhaps we should wait. I'll know where to go on my part with any questions about your faith, Fräulein.

[Psychonaut]

Here's a question: What's up with "the God" and "the Goddess" in Wicca? I've seen this explained in quite a few ways and I'm wondering what your take is. Are all female deities subsumed under the umbrella of "the Godess?" Do you actually believe that there is only one female deity and that all other female deities are hypostatic facades of her?

[Mrs. G]

Yes I do believe that all the Goddess Deities be they Bast, Aphrodite, Cerridwen and so on are all forms of the mother Goddess. The Same goes with the Gods be they Osiris, Thor, Zeus, Odin are all a form of the Father God. If you bring the mother Goddess and the father god together then you will have the all powerful being.

The Gods and Goddesses all portray some part of the Mother Goddess and the Father God. They can represent love, nature, animals, death, life, and so forth.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I'll never call an Al Qaeda terrorist a Muslim, nor will I call Fred Phelps a Christian.Usually, sincere followers of religion are just trying to mind their own business and live their lives as they see fit for them, without interference from the outside.

I think you are wrong here-Al Quada are the most muslim of muslims, and the fundamentalist Christians are the most Christian of Christians. As explained to me by the head whatever of Britain's oldest mosque (nice guy, gave us a ride home at the end of the day) to be a true muslim one must be a 'fundamentalist' to look at and follow the fundamentals of the religion and therefore we should not look at 'Islamic fundamentalists' as anything other than the truest adherents of Islam (a similar pattern for the bible/Christians)

For the people "trying to mind their own business and live their lives as they see fit for them", it doesn't even really matter what religion that is they claim to follow, they just go along to get along, in a muslim country these people call themselves 'muslims', in a Christian country these people usually call themselves 'Christians', mainly for social convenience. They might as well be atheists, because they evaluate religious dictates on human/material/rational means "well, that's crazy, I'm not going to do that". A true adherent of a religion would live his life as his god(s) see fit, not as he himself sees fit.


My own personal experience with Wiccans from attending their largest gathering a couple times (Halloween in Salem): They are not multicultural, whatever their 'official line', it's basically all people from northwestern Europe. One woman I was next to during the ceremony one year even remarked on this, "its all white people" as if in some sort of surprise (she was from Belgium, of all places). Both times there, when asked, I explained that I was not a diehard wiccan, that I was basically there to honor one of my ancestors who was hung in the Salem Witch Trials, and compared myself to the Christians who only attend Church on Christmas. They honestly didn't seem to know what to make of me, not being used to people who attend religious functions for social/personal reasons as opposed to honest religious devotion, the former category I believe making up the overwhelming majority most old line/mass market religions.

[Gooding]

Yes I do believe that all the Goddess Deities be they Bast, Aphrodite, Cerridwen and so on are all forms of the mother Goddess. The Same goes with the Gods be they Osiris, Thor, Zeus, Odin are all a form of the Father God. If you bring the mother Goddess and the father god together then you will have the all powerful being.

The Gods and Goddesses all portray some part of the Mother Goddess and the Father God. They can represent love, nature, animals, death, life, and so forth.

It seems to me to be a similar concept of the way certain Hindus view Brahman: all deities are, seperately, arranged into a hierarchy, but they're all ultimately manifestations of Brahman, which is conceived as a sort of all embracing Unity which is really a pantheistic viewpoint. All gods and goddesses are One.My question is this: Do Wiccans, like Hindus, believe that they can acheive liberation from the endless round of reincarnation by moksha, or absorption into this Brahman?

[Mrs Ulf]

In the rites that I do I always honor bothn the God and Goddess since they are two halves of one whole. My question to everyone is are Gooding and I going to be the main ones on this thread. If so then why did He and i start it in the first place. I now that the answer will be to ask questions but so far the only one who has asked me questions about the Wiccan faith and what it stands for is Gooding.


The reason for this thread is to answer questions, not pander to an agenda. I think we've got several people who'd love to ask more questions, but if the questions are rather dormant right now, perhaps we should wait. I'll know where to go on my part with any questions about your faith, Fräulein.

Don't expect alot of questions if you don't pose a purpose for the thread to begin with. If the direction you wanted was to explain your faith to us all, then you should have opened with something that started a discussion.

Rather than just post a link to a wiki and say my wife knows more. Nobody else was privy to the chatbox, you need to talk to us in the threads as if the chatbox does not exist.

And finally you'll catch more bees (aka trolls) with honey not vinegar. All the more power to you but if you wish to discuss it in a thread expect the worse and be prepared to present yourself in a kind matter. Make yourself the face of all Fae Wiccans. Pretend that you are the ambassador.

Perhaps you change the first post to be something more like "What do you think of Fae Wiccans" or Wiccans in general. Then go from there.

Keep in mind Mrs.G you have alot of Pagan Heathens here as well. We know quite alot about what it means to devote yourself to non Christian Gods. Rituals the like, and a few of us who have studied all sorts of pagan and christian faiths.

Faith is faith, it is your choice. Just be prepared to stand up for it not put others down for not knowing or being against you. Nothing anybody can say here with change you, I hope.

[Psychonaut]

Yes I do believe that all the Goddess Deities...are all forms of the mother Goddess.

OK, let's expand on this...

Is "the Goddess" composed of these deities in kind of a pantheistic manner (i.e. A + B + C = G [the Goddess])?

Or, are we dealing with a more panentheistic conception, where "the Goddess" contains all female deities, but is herself something apart from her constituents by virtue of an unknown factor (i.e. [A + B + C] x U = G) ?

Or, are all female deity names simply directing back to the same source: the Goddess (i.e. A = G, B = G, C = G, etc.)?

Or, is it something else?


My own personal experience with Wiccans from attending their largest gathering a couple times (Halloween in Salem): They are not multicultural, whatever their 'official line', it's basically all people from northwestern Europe.

Wiccans in New England must be a different breed than the ones in the South. Virtually every Neopagan get together that I attended back home was disproportionately filled with minorities and gays (with the two groups usually overlapping). I also recall that a good chunk of the white folks there were afflicted with the legendary Wannabe Injun disease as well and were always lamenting the wrongdoings of the White Man.

[Mrs. G]

Yes I do believe that all the Goddess Deities be they Bast, Aphrodite, Cerridwen and so on are all forms of the mother Goddess. The Same goes with the Gods be they Osiris, Thor, Zeus, Odin are all a form of the Father God. If you bring the mother Goddess and the father god together then you will have the all powerful being.

The Gods and Goddesses all portray some part of the Mother Goddess and the Father God. They can represent love, nature, animals, death, life, and so forth.

The above is the answer to the question that you asked. I answered that question already.

On all accounts.:D

[Psychonaut]

The above is the answer to the question that you asked. I answered that question already.

Not really. If you don't wish to go into this question in depth, that's fine, but I'm trying to understand your conception with a degree of specificity that's not present in the above answer.

[Gooding]

And finally you'll catch more bees (aka trolls) with honey not vinegar. All the more power to you but if you wish to discuss it in a thread expect the worse and be prepared to present yourself in a kind matter. Make yourself the face of all Fae Wiccans. Pretend that you are the ambassador.

Perhaps you change the first post to be something more like "What do you think of Fae Wiccans" or Wiccans in general. Then go from there.

Keep in mind Mrs.G you have alot of Pagan Heathens here as well. We know quite alot about what it means to devote yourself to non Christian Gods. Rituals the like, and a few of us who have studied all sorts of pagan and christian faiths.

Faith is faith, it is your choice. Just be prepared to stand up for it not put others down for not knowing or being against you. Nothing anybody can say here with change you, I hope.

That's quite true, Mrs.Ulf and she will stand up for her faith, as she has done previously. My wife simply does know more about her religion than I do and she will get passionate when she feels that she's under verbal attack. Sure there are heathens present, together with atheists,Christians and some of us who happen to think that religion is best kept private. There are religious biases here and there's obviously an agenda set to put down Wiccans.If I didn't visit our local mosque here and talk to the Iranian Imam here, I'd probably have the same hostility towards Muslims that others do. With research, discussions and experience, I no longer hold such hatred. Islamic monotheism is a heck of a lot more clear cut than Christian trinitarianism and the emphasis the imam put on the necessity for research puts any "leave your brains at the door" religion to shame. Nothing that people here can say will change my wife's beliefs, as she's too strong for that. She's tried to express herself as an ambassador for her faith and people have recycled their questions and she's consistently answered them. If people will troll, they'll troll and they'll be treated accordingly.We've both tried our best to present the case for Wicca in a clear and friendly manner.If they want to bitch about clarity, then that's on them. Thank you, Mrs.Ulf, for being so consistent in defending my wife and giving us some advice here.

[Mrs. G]

I can only be so clear. I have answered the question to the best of my ability. I am sorry that the answer was not what you wanted. If you would like to read up on the subject then I suggest the book "The Evaluation of a World Religion: Origins of Modern Witchcraft" by Ann Moura also you can read up on Fae craft in the book Faerie Craft by Neil Geddes, and Alicen Geddes - Ward.

[Psychonaut]

I can only be so clear. I have answered the question to the best of my ability. I am sorry that the answer was not what you wanted.

It's not about you not giving me the "right" answer. You said:


Yes I do believe that all the Goddess Deities be they Bast, Aphrodite, Cerridwen and so on are all forms of the mother Goddess.

I know that you believe all of the female deities are, in some way, forms of "the Goddess," but what I'd like to know what you believe is the manner in which the many Goddesses relate to the one Goddess. If you're still game for discussing this, see if any of my options fit your belief. If not, what's your expansion of this?

[Jägerstaffel]

Jesus Christ, no one was attacking her religion - they asked a question and no one answered it.

Wasn't that the point of this thread?

[Treffie]

That's quite true, Mrs.Ulf and she will stand up for her faith, as she has done previously. My wife simply does know more about her religion than I do and she will get passionate when she feels that she's under verbal attack. Sure there are heathens present, together with atheists,Christians and some of us who happen to think that religion is best kept private. There are religious biases here and there's obviously an agenda set to put down Wiccans.If I didn't visit our local mosque here and talk to the Iranian Imam here, I'd probably have the same hostility towards Muslims that others do. With research, discussions and experience, I no longer hold such hatred. Islamic monotheism is a heck of a lot more clear cut than Christian trinitarianism and the emphasis the imam put on the necessity for research puts any "leave your brains at the door" religion to shame. Nothing that people here can say will change my wife's beliefs, as she's too strong for that. She's tried to express herself as an ambassador for her faith and people have recycled their questions and she's consistently answered them. If people will troll, they'll troll and they'll be treated accordingly.We've both tried our best to present the case for Wicca in a clear and friendly manner.If they want to bitch about clarity, then that's on them. Thank you, Mrs.Ulf, for being so consistent in defending my wife and giving us some advice here.

I've been through this thread and there has been no trolling, just inquisitive questions. :)

We all question each other's beliefs.

[Mrs. G]

All of the deities whether they are of the god or goddess are in some way a manifestation of the father god or the mother goddess. Which in themselves are a manifestation of the higher being.

[Jägerstaffel]

All of the deities whether they are of the god or goddess are in some way a manifestation of the father god or the mother goddess. Which in themselves are a manifestation of the higher being.

Mrs G. We all know about Wicca.

Most of the people on this board are Heathens. We've all probably read about Wicca at some point.

We don't need to be schooled on the basics of it, we're asking WHY you believe in it.

[Psychonaut]

All of the deities whether they are of the god or goddess are in some way a manifestation of the father god or the mother goddess. Which in themselves are a manifestation of the higher being.

Yes, we've established this. Any thoughts on how the many relate to the one? There are a lot of ways of going about this, I'm just curious which one you subscribe to.

[Mrs. G]

In what way do you want to know what i subscribe to. I need to have more information on this if I am to answer the question.

[Jägerstaffel]

In what way do you want to know what i subscribe to. I need to have more information on this if I am to answer the question.




Originally Posted by Psychonaut
Why adopt a religion that is wholly constructed rather than one that has actual historical roots?

[Nodens]

Actually, at present, more of


Is "the Goddess" composed of these deities in kind of a pantheistic manner (i.e. A + B + C = G [the Goddess])?

Or, are we dealing with a more panentheistic conception, where "the Goddess" contains all female deities, but is herself something apart from her constituents by virtue of an unknown factor (i.e. [A + B + C] x U = G) ?

Or, are all female deity names simply directing back to the same source: the Goddess (i.e. A = G, B = G, C = G, etc.)?

Or, is it something else?

[Mrs Ulf]

That's quite true, Mrs.Ulf and she will stand up for her faith, as she has done previously. My wife simply does know more about her religion than I do and she will get passionate when she feels that she's under verbal attack. Sure there are heathens present, together with atheists,Christians and some of us who happen to think that religion is best kept private. There are religious biases here and there's obviously an agenda set to put down Wiccans.If I didn't visit our local mosque here and talk to the Iranian Imam here, I'd probably have the same hostility towards Muslims that others do. With research, discussions and experience, I no longer hold such hatred. Islamic monotheism is a heck of a lot more clear cut than Christian trinitarianism and the emphasis the imam put on the necessity for research puts any "leave your brains at the door" religion to shame. Nothing that people here can say will change my wife's beliefs, as she's too strong for that. She's tried to express herself as an ambassador for her faith and people have recycled their questions and she's consistently answered them. If people will troll, they'll troll and they'll be treated accordingly.We've both tried our best to present the case for Wicca in a clear and friendly manner.If they want to bitch about clarity, then that's on them. Thank you, Mrs.Ulf, for being so consistent in defending my wife and giving us some advice here.

If your going to present yourself as the voice of your faith, you can't shy away from the negative. Nor can you get angry about it. Its not just defending yourself, its defending a whole faith.

No one here as far as I've seen in the thread is attacking her at all. Recycled questions are to be expected when you start a thread like this. Don't expect something new, its all been asked and answered before.

I have already myself answered the same questions over and over again, Each time with renewed faith in my belief. You can't fall down because the same questions persists.

Answer each question pretending it has been asked for the first time, make your point as clearly and as true of heart as if you were beginning your journey for the first time only through knowledgeable eyes.

[Psychonaut]

In what way do you want to know what i subscribe to. I need to have more information on this if I am to answer the question.


Actually, at present, more of


Is "the Goddess" composed of these deities in kind of a pantheistic manner (i.e. A + B + C = G [the Goddess])?

Or, are we dealing with a more panentheistic conception, where "the Goddess" contains all female deities, but is herself something apart from her constituents by virtue of an unknown factor (i.e. [A + B + C] x U = G) ?

Or, are all female deity names simply directing back to the same source: the Goddess (i.e. A = G, B = G, C = G, etc.)?

Or, is it something else?

Yup :thumb001:

[Mrs. G]

What I have picked up of witchcraft is what my instructor taught me of the Shakti/ Shiva cult with a european twist. I can only tell what I know and repeative questions from different people coming onto the scene is ok, but not from the same person 3 times in a row. That can get annoying.

[Gooding]

Here's my take, folks! She left her childhood Presbyterian faith due to mental abuse and a feeling of forever being on the outside. She encountered her Wicca at a metaphysical store known as Thirteen Magical Moons.She studied it for a year and lived it for three years so far. She was taught that Wicca was a reconstruction of the ancient Hindu Shiva/Shakti cult, and that the God and Goddess were expressions of one Absolute, and that the gods and goddesses were manifestations of the God and Goddess which were expressions of One Absolute.She's a pantheist, basically. Why? All of her experiences in life led to this conclusion for her.She feels at peace, empowered and positive about her faith. Does that help at all?

[Psychonaut]

What I have picked up of witchcraft is what my instructor taught me of the Shakti/ Shiva cult with a european twist. I can only tell what I know and repeative questions from different people coming onto the scene is ok, but not from the same person 3 times in a row. That can get annoying.

So...would that be a "none of the above?" ;)

If you've not thought it through, that's fine. What I was hoping to do was stimulate you to think about and expand your own beliefs. There are no "right" answers, but there should be an answer. Most people don't think about these kinds of things until they're pressed to think about them. That's not unusual. There's always room to grow and mature the seed of an idea.

[Gooding]

So...would that be a "none of the above?" ;)

If you've not thought it through, that's fine. What I was hoping to do was stimulate you to think about and expand your own beliefs. There are no "right" answers, but there should be an answer. Most people don't think about these kinds of things until they're pressed to think about them. That's not unusual. There's always room to grow and mature the seed of an idea.

LOL, that's true, Psychonaut.You lot have left her a more determined Wiccan than ever!:D

[Mrs. G]

My husband spoke the truth, and I may choose not to answer certain questions if they are not to my liking. I have done my best to answer the questions that were put to me, but I have only the knowledge of what my High Prestess taught to this Priestess (me).

[Gooding]

Oh, I'm sorry..did I neglect to mention that my wife is actually a Priestess? Oops, my bad.:eek::D

[Mrs. G]

I may not be a High Priestess, but I was initiated in the faith as a Priestess of the Tradition of the Witches Circle where I studied. I will continue to be a Priestess till the day that I die, or until I decide to train to become a High Priestess.

[Gooding]

I may not be a High Priestess, but I was initiated in the faith as a Priestess of the Tradition of the Witches Circle where I studied. I will continue to be a Priestess till the day that I die, or until I decide to train to become a High Priestess.

Ach, back to her books again! I probably won't get laid for a month!:eek::eek:

[Phlegethon]

Wicca - a religion for weird females, invented by a weird male.

[Gooding]

Wicca - a religion for weird females, invented by a weird male.

**Snickers**Wierd, huh? How many people in our society today would look at the majority of the posters' beliefs and politics here as being,er, normal? Wierd truly is a relative term..;):rolleyes:

[Phlegethon]

When I use it it is an absolute term.

[Mrs. G]

Then quite fucking around.

[Skandi]

Can I remind people of Psychonaut's post here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104385&postcount=8) please

[Gooding]

Then quite fucking around.

Damn, dear...okay,okay..lower the blood temperature..

[Mrs. G]

Then quite fucking around.

I'm Sorry. I honestly did not mean to say this. Please forgive me.:D

[Mrs. G]

PPPPPLLLLLLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!!!

[Óttar]

I think you are wrong here-Al Quada are the most muslim of muslims, and the fundamentalist Christians are the most Christian of Christians.
This is so true... If someone can sit through reading the Quran or the Bible, analyze the actions and attitudes of their God, and still want to worship a fellow like that, I honestly question their status as a moral human being.


A true adherent of a religion would live his life as his god(s) see fit, not as he himself sees fit.

Aham Brahmani asmi.
I am the Absolute. :wink

[Gooding]

This is so true... If someone can sit through reading the Quran or the Bible, analyze the actions and attitudes of their God, and still want to worship a fellow like that, I honestly question their status as a moral human being.



Aham Brahmani asmi.
I am the Absolute. :wink

Funny you should say that. In the Qur'an as well as in the Bible, there are things that paint God in a vicious light and other passages that portray him in a compassionate light. It all really boils down to personal interpretation. In both texts, people are called upon to respect the religious choices of others and there are passages enjoining the utter destruction of unbelievers. It really depends on how one wishes to interpret the texts. According to some, God is ultimately Other, which is why Prophets are sent into the world.The Creator doesn't really need his creatures, but the universe which is created and destroyed relies on the laws set in place to keep it functioning and each being is interrelated with the others in the universe. I don't see the need for a Redeemer because we can all call upon God directly for our needs. Sometimes just remembering God is an inspiration to live better lives and to develop more fully in our spiritual evolution.

[Germanicus]

I'm Sorry. I honestly did not mean to say this. Please forgive me.:D


Yes you did mean to say it... give the German a slap once in a while, he deserves it.....:)

[Loki]

http://members.gamedev.net/edxLabs/image/facepalm.jpg

[Phlegethon]

Then quite fucking around.

Quite or quit? ;)

Can't quit though, I am celibate. ;)

[Psychonaut]

Can I remind people of Psychonaut's post here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104385&postcount=8) please

Thank you Thrym. It's a shame that the admonishments of moderators go unheeded, since the next three posts in a row consisted of exactly the kinds of things we're bringing up...


Damn, dear...okay,okay..lower the blood temperature..


I'm Sorry. I honestly did not mean to say this. Please forgive me.


PPPPPLLLLLLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Seriously. Rather than making a post that is only directed at the person with whom you share a house, just walk across the room and relay your message in person. Too many threads are getting filled with this kind of banter.

[Gooding]

I hear you, Loki..sorry things spun out as it did..

[Mrs. G]

Thank you Thrym. It's a shame that the admonishments of moderators go unheeded, since the next three posts in a row consisted of exactly the kinds of things we're bringing up...







Seriously. Rather than making a post that is only directed at the person with whom you' share a house, just walk across the room and relay your message in person. Too many threads are getting filled with this kind of banter.


Psychonaut the lat two quotes that you put in your post were not meant for my husband. If they were I would have told him to his face. They were directed elsewhere.:)

[Óttar]

Funny you should say that. In the Qur'an as well as in the Bible, there are things that paint God in a vicious light and other passages that portray him in a compassionate light. It all really boils down to personal interpretation. In both texts, people are called upon to respect the religious choices of others and there are passages enjoining the utter destruction of unbelievers. It really depends on how one wishes to interpret the texts. According to some, God is ultimately Other, which is why Prophets are sent into the world.The Creator doesn't really need his creatures, but the universe which is created and destroyed relies on the laws set in place to keep it functioning and each being is interrelated with the others in the universe. I don't see the need for a Redeemer because we can all call upon God directly for our needs. Sometimes just remembering God is an inspiration to live better lives and to develop more fully in our spiritual evolution.

Simplistic.

To make this short, there is regrettably little in either book to suggest religious tolerance. The other side of the spectrum is much more apparent and present. Notice how mystics (usually labelled heretics and condemned by the orthodox clergy/hierarchy) have to come up with all sorts of convoluted reasoning to prove that Allah is love, Hell doesn't exist, and the fire is just a veiled expression of God's love. :rolleyes2:

"Interpretation" most times, is just willful ignoring of what offends the devotee's sensibilities.

For example, in the Quran "To you be your religion (deenakum) and to me be my religion (deeni)" Is basically 'I am right and you are wrong. Piss off until the Hellfire.' considering that the verse is sandwiched in between references to infidels and how they will receive a grievous chastisement (Jahannam).

[Mrs. G]

Quite or quit? ;)

Can't quit though, I am celibate. ;)

Nice comeback. I liked it.:D

[Germanicus]

http://members.gamedev.net/edxLabs/image/facepalm.jpg

How dare you use Captain Picard as an attempt at bringing comedy into the debate, you've upset a true beliver of star Trek, and have invoked in me "The Wrath of Khan" :)

[Phlegethon]

Genghis or Kublai?

[Psychonaut]

Jeebus people! How is this not sinking in? What do posts like this have to do with the thread's topic?


Genghis or Kublai?


Nice comeback. I liked it.


How dare you use Captain Picard as an attempt at bringing comedy into the debate, you've upset a true beliver of star Trek, and have invoked in me "The Wrath of Khan"

How much of this could've been put in a rep comment or a PM? Does this contribute to what was being discussed?

[Mrs. G]

Psychonaut, the last quote was not originally posted by me. Please get where it came from correct.

[Gooding]

Well, from what I've heard, Allah certainly is not love, although he is supposed to be the Absolute Principle of Love.Allah is not even a spirit, as spirits are multiple and Allahu Ahad, The God is One.The Qur'an certainly has a lot of vivid imagery regarding Hell and the Garden, Jannat, and it also enjoins people to "fight in the cause of Allah, but only if you are attacked first". Who doesn't read and interpret texts to their own advantage? That is a characteristic of the Ahl ul'Khitab, or the People of the Book. Jews,Christians and Muslims alike slant their texts to favor their own views. The opinion of the Shi'i branch of Islam is that ijtihad, or logical reasoning should be used in interpreting the Qur'an, the Sunnah and the Ahadith and any devotee needs a good teacher, or Majra'a, to help him or her to apply the lessons of the Qur'an to daily life. There are few "Qur'an Only" devotees and they are regarded as existing outside the Din of Islam. Of course, those who are comparable to Hitler will wind up in Hell. At the end of time, Allah is said to resolve all issues on those aspects of religion that humanity will disagree. Obstinate haters will fry, but that's it. Simplicity isn't always a bad thing..many times simple truths can be found in them.













Simplistic.

To make this short, there is regrettably little in either book to suggest religious tolerance. The other side of the spectrum is much more apparent and present. Notice how mystics (usually labelled heretics and condemned by the orthodox clergy/hierarchy) have to come up with all sorts of convoluted reasoning to prove that Allah is love, Hell doesn't exist, and the fire is just a veiled expression of God's love. :rolleyes2:

"Interpretation" most times, is just willful ignoring of what offends the devotee's sensibilities.

For example, in the Quran "To you be your religion (deenakum) and to me be my religion (deeni)" Is basically 'I am right and you are wrong. Piss off until the Hellfire.' considering that the verse is sandwiched in between references to infidels and how they will receive a grievous chastisement (Jahannam).

[Gooding]

Loki, this thread is getting nowhere fast. Can we just close this so my wife can have time to get to know people and what to expect when she makes her posts?Please?

[Loddfafner]

Psychonaut, the last quote was not originally posted by me. Please get where it came from correct.

Do you see the larger point that Psychonaut is making?

[ikki]

speaking of paradise.. that islamic paradise with towering trees granting shade, cold streams of fresh water, foods in the wood free for all..

Kinda sounds like finland :D

[Loki]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2590110505_cb38004c61.jpg?v=0

[SuuT]

http://ui30.gamespot.com/2397/vaderfail_2.jpg

[Murphy]

BOOBIES R 4 DA PLEASURE OF MEN!

[Gooding]

BOOBIES R 4 DA PLEASURE OF MEN!

DAMN RIGHT, NIGGAZ!!

[Brynhild]

I wasn't able to read the entire thread, it's jumped to 13 pages! :eek: While I agree largely with what Psychonaut has pointed out in regards to Wicca, I'm also of the opinion that it's a case of each to their own. There will always be a question of what's authentic and what isn't - irrespective of the religion.

As for the Fae, I've always known of the little folk. For myself, though, it ties in with my Celtic roots and my magical workings with them never deviate from that. :)

Edit: I realise that the original objective to this thread was to enquire about Fae Wicca, but as I see it, it's more like a branching off from Gardner's concept for modern Wicca to incorporate the Fae - which leads me to what I've heard as to the meaning of the word Wicca itself.

Wicca (in the male term, while Wicce is female) is to imply the wisecraft, but before Gardner took a more universal line with his practice, the word could've been more construed with Celtic Paganism. I could be wrong here and clarification is welcome but that has been my understanding of the word's use.

[Mrs. G]

Thank you Brynhild. That is what I have been trying to say all along and for some reason I was unable to put the right words together. Again thank you.

[Óttar]

I remember reading an excellent webpage which unfortunately no longer exists called Why Wiccans Suck. Note the title of the site was not Why Wicca sucks. The site operator complained about how Wicca had devolved into fluffbunnery after originally having some merit and dignity. I think he mentioned something about the 101 laws of Wicca as established by Gerald Gardner. Originally Wicca had a sort of sensuous dark aspect, which embraced both sides of nature. The idea was a religion based upon fertility and natural law, and included rules to the governing of a coven such as (and I paraphrase) "When the High Priestess is deemed to be past her prime in terms of corporeal desirability, there is to be a meeting held by the female members who decide whether the HP is desirable, and then it is up to them to elect a new High Priestess." Sexuality and sexual expression was also a large element in the religion. The webmaster pointed out how, over time, these rules, ideas, and the original spirit of the religion fell into a handbag full of rainbows and pink bunny rabbits. I found the site to be quite enjoyable, and informative and made me curious to read more of the original writings of the founder and his occult predecessors, which included Aleister Crowley if I'm not mistaken.

I am interested in Aleister Crowley. I attended a Gnostic Mass at the OTO Lodge in Salem. I like the ritual gestures, the pan-mediterranean ritual invocations, altar design, litany of "saints", a nude priestess through much of the rite and sun worship. My only criticism would be how much it imitates the Catholic Mass (Crowley based the Mass partly on the Russian Orthodox Rite). Now the rote general response to this is "The Catholics retained pagan ritual forms in their Mass, we are just reclaiming it etc." but I can't imagine pagan rites had invocations to "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." I would say more along the lines of "Father, Mother, Son i.e. 'Isis, Osiris, Horus'" or some other actual pagan trinity (of which there were many in the ancient world.)

I also don't care for Crowley's invocation of elemental spirits with non-sensical names like "Aiwass", it has no cultural context not to mention such a being is not mentioned anywhere in any text in any time period. For Example, in the "Witches' Blade" invocations are made to the effect of "Eco, Eco Azarak (!?), Eco Eco Zamalek, ..." AZARAK!!?! ZAMALAK!!?! Seriously who the f*** is that!?

Name actual deities! Have at least some cultural and historical context, or else all dignity is lost! I know I'm speaking bluntly, but what good is it if you pull fake spirits out of your ass?!

[SuuT]

1.) Wicca is completely inorganic: It's raison d'être is utterly lacking as it, and its practicioners, want to be something, as opposed to a celebration of what they are - their 'is-ness', as it were. It arose on a nebulous intellectualised whim; not out of a basic instinctual desire to harness the inherent fear of Being, a compelling need to explain and place one's self in the cosmos, or out of the fundamental need for humans to combine and co-operate: Which is the architechtonic history of all actual 'religous' practise.

2.) Due largely to its lack of organicity, it has no preservative effect: It's a free-for-all: There is no inhering reason to not accept anyone, from any soci-cultural milieu, into its arms - as it is centered not around a people with a shared nature, but an ethnically amorphous mass sharing nature. "Do as thou wilt" leaves people to do just that.

3.) It's symbology is either stolen, or - if 'new' - exhibits a lack of fluidity that betrays its modernity: For example, 2000 years ago, the Hackencruz/Swastika/Sauwistika/Sunwheel would have been nearly Universally, and nearly instantaneously, understood by a gargantuan swath of modern Europe - and beyond. Wicca offers this head-scratcher:

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4698524/wicca8-main_Full.jpg


4.) It is effete: It's "shoulds" and "oughts" are fickle and inconstant and observe themselves as actually saying something of great depth when they are not even superficial.

5.) It cannot stand-up to the most rudimentary analytical scrutiny because it has not analysed itself: it is non-contemplative. It's greatest argument for itself is the infantile, "because I want to".

6.) It is largely for people who are running away - not running to: there is a desire born of the need to push-back against the thrust of 'injustice' in the world that breeds superior types; there is another that wears this knowledge as a veil, a facade, to escape it. Wicca is the latter.

[SuuT]

http://www.artfuldoodlers.co.uk/files/My-Little-Pony.jpg

[Baron Samedi]

Why choose a religion that begins in the 1800's? :D

Why choose a religion at all? :cool:

Magick and mysticism, may they answer thy questions more than blind faith.

[Gooding]

I could've sworn that I begged Loki to close this thread.:rolleyes: As it is, my wife's washed her hands of it, so carry on as you will..just don't expect her to be overly tolerant of any new "why heathenry" threads that crop up.

[Baron Samedi]

I could've sworn that I begged Loki to close this thread.:rolleyes: As it is, my wife's washed her hands of it, so carry on as you will..just don't expect her to be overly tolerant of any new "why heathenry" threads that crop up.

How about your wife answer this for me....

What exactly is "Fae"?

[Óttar]

I could've sworn that I begged Loki to close this thread.
:confused:Why? Because member criticism has gotten to the heart of the matter?

[SuuT]

I could've sworn that I begged Loki to close this thread.:rolleyes: As it is, my wife's washed her hands of it, so carry on as you will..just don't expect her to be overly tolerant of any new "why heathenry" threads that crop up.

:confused2: Should Loki close every thread that people start when the people who start it don't like the direction it takes? :confused2: (rhetorical question).

:confused2: People asking questions and/or saying what they think whilst providing a rationale is 'carrying on'...?:icon_eek: (rhetorical question).

Looking forward to whatever tolerance level your wife may now have for heathenry threads.:confused2: (rhetorical statement).


Actually, if your wife has a waning tolerance for something, I think your wife should be a little less tolerant of you in the chatbox telling everyone that she should stick to "her Disney threads"; and, your rather late defense of her - however irrational and petty that defense may be. :coffee:

[Loddfafner]

I respect Wicca for what it is: meaningful to its participants and an example of human improvisation - much like music. I have had some experience with Wiccan-influenced rituals and am not entirely embarrassed when I remember them. My sense of spirituality is wordless and outside language so I can be flexible with the nameable approximations I encounter. There is much that puts me off about Wicca but that just means I personally stay out of it. I am happier to see people building such scenes than, say, those of evangelical Christianity.

Heathenry also has an element of improvisation. But history matters to me so I care to know which practices are rooted in what is known of the lore and its history and which emerged out of some hippy's acid trip. Science is important to me so I won't put faith in the power of, say, crystals.

[Gooding]

:confused2: Should Loki close every thread that people start when the people who start it don't like the direction it takes? :confused2: (rhetorical question). If the topic spins out of control, then yes, of course. The intent of this thread was to answer questions about the Fae Faith, not to justify someone's freedom of worship. Face it, Wicca's the largest pagan religion in the country today and this all boils down to religious competition.

:confused2: People asking questions and/or saying what they think whilst providing a rationale is 'carrying on'...?:icon_eek: (rhetorical question).

What rationale?:D All I've seen here was heathen missionaries trying to belittle my wife's religion and asking her the same qustion several times.
The air of "superiority" has not gone unnoticed. Why else did you request Loki to reopen the thread rather than to post why you disdain Wicca so much and to post a "My Little Pony" pic? Rather childish, no? Again, what rationale?

Looking forward to whatever tolerance level your wife may now have for heathenry threads.:confused2: (rhetorical statement).

I can guarantee that she'll show a lot more interest in the beliefs themselves than try to demand why somebody would believe such a thing. My wife's not docile in defending her faith, but is is concerned about the feelings of others. I haven't seen much of an effort to reciprocate such concerns on the part of the self appointed "intellectuals" here. I'm not hampered by my wife's concerns. You mock my wife's beliefs, you mock her. We've made an effort to be courteous.You think Wiccans are fluff bunnies.Fine. The Wiccans and other non heathens of my acquaintaince think of heathens as retro savages, when they don't call them Viking wannabes.Why should she tolerate a religion that's never tolerated hers?


Actually, if your wife has a waning tolerance for something, I think your wife should be a little less tolerant of you in the chatbox telling everyone that she should stick to "her Disney threads"; and, your rather late defense of her - however irrational and petty that defense may be. :coffee:

My intent was that she should focus on a common interest with others. Yeah, my words were offensive to her, but fortunately she knew why I suggested what I did. "Irrational and petty"? Were your posts on this thread logical at all? Do you even know anything about Wicca other than what you and your heathen comrades here post?So what? Posts here have been deliberately confusing to her, members have posted that they were intent on making her question her beliefs.Face it. That's not going to happen. You don't like her beliefs? Too bad. I know there's a huge community of heathens here.There's a large Christian community here as well and at least two folks who follow Eastern thought. So, be insular and enjoy your online clique.So, does belittling the beliefs of others make you and yours feel better about following your own? My wife got upset because she cared about the good opinion of the people on this board, people she'll never meet. Representatives of a religion that denotes white supremacy and the utter destruction of her faith. Congratulations.She hasn't been treated fairly, nor has her faith been given a fair hearing. Does being strong in your faith entail the obliteration of religions you don't like? Sounds familiar...

[SuuT]

... nor has her faith been given a fair hearing. ...

I think that this is all anyone wants. But, usually, when people "hear" things "fairly", they will have fair questions and critiques - as evidenced. But if she, or you, cannot understand the difference between inquiry and attack, you cannot expect those who do to lie down and play nicey-nice to placate that lack of understanding.

I am offended by the ease with which the both of you have been offended.

[Fortis in Arduis]

What is wrong with wicca?

It seems to me to be a perfectly acceptable universalist religion onto which adherents can then project their personal and folk aspirations.

Also:


He claimed that, after returning to England on his retirement from a career spent in Asia, he encountered a coven of witches located in the New Forest in southern England, (the "New Forest coven") and was initiated into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

I find this quite easy to believe. If pagan traditions were to survive anywhere in the UK, they would be found in England's South-West and the New Forest, where the wild ponies live:

http://simplymarvelous.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/side-by-side-400-pixels.jpg

;)

[Mrs. G]

:p
I think that this is all anyone wants. But, usually, when people "hear" things "fairly", they will have fair questions and critiques - as evidenced. But if she, or you, cannot understand the difference between inquiry and attack, you cannot expect those who do to lie down and play nicey-nice to placate that lack of understanding.

I am offended by the ease with which the both of you have been offended.

How dare you talk to us like that. You are totally wrong about both my husband and me. As far as I am concerned you can go walk off a bridge. You are so close minded about others that you are not willing to give others a chance. From what I have seen in the way you post you do not want to get to know me at all. For this I feel sorry for you. You are not going to run me off of this site. I know that is what you are trying to do. You did in fact attack my beliefs. Yes I do know the difference between Inquiry and attack and you were attacking my religion. That is something that I take seriously and do not like anyone attacking. If you attack my religion then you attack me.:D:p:loco:

[Gooding]

I am offended by the ease with which the both of you have been offended.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8586&page=13

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8586&page=5

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8586&page=3

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8586

And you'll get the same kind of concern for your offended sensibilities that we got for ours.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Personally, I think that wicca and paganism in general has been hijacked by people with a destructive deculturalisation agenda; they wanted to use it to have a go at established religion and culture.

If you have ever attended a pagan meeting in the UK you will immediately recognise these crypto-marxist revolutionaries. It is a cultural phenomenon really. They are a bit like leftist atheists who could not quite cut it intellectually.

So, I do not really see why we could judge wicca or neo-paganism by what has attached itself to the religion; the universalist, leftist agenda, the anti-Christian agenda, the anti-racist agenda etc.

I think that I would have more interest in wicca than I would Odinism, because at least with wicca I could fill in the blanks with what I have learnt from Hindu yoga and meditation teachers, which I just do not see possible with concurrent Odinism and if I could find a covern that was 'straight' enough I might even find people who I could feel comfortable sharing with.

[Psychonaut]

If you attack my religion then you attack me.

Aaaaaand herein lies the problem. If you are unable to separate critiques of your religion from critiques of yourself, then you'd be better off not discussing religion at all—particularly not with those who you know are going to be critical of your chosen faith.

[Skandi]

:p

How dare you talk to us like that. You are totally wrong about both my husband and me. As far as I am concerned you can go walk off a bridge. You are so close minded about others that you are not willing to give others a chance. From what I have seen in the way you post you do not want to get to know me at all. For this I feel sorry for you. You are not going to run me off of this site. I know that is what you are trying to do. You did in fact attack my beliefs. Yes I do know the difference between Inquiry and attack and you were attacking my religion. That is something that I take seriously and do not like anyone attacking. If you attack my religion then you attack me.:D:p:loco:

If you think there has been an attack against your person, please inform the staff, as to attacks on your believes, well this is a discussion forum and that is what we do discuss things. Take a moment to read through some of the threads on Christianity, Heathery and even atheism and you will see that they all come under attack. On here ALL religions are free game.
If you wish to put up an opinion that is fine but you have to expect it to be challenged, and you will not be able to convince some people that you are right. Exactly as you would not in RL. You can put pretty much ANY opinion up on here, but if you wish to say something like the world is flat then expect ridicule.

[Ulf]

I think Wicca is a good step towards becoming a Heathen. Some are just on the road longer than others.

Also the thing about sacrificing animals. I assume you're a vegetarian?

All the animals I've sacrificed I've eaten them. They were delicious and I gave the blood to the gods and some scraps to the dog and left the guts in the woods and ate the rest.

Not all Heathens sacrifice animals and it's not required, in fact no part of Heathenry is really 'required'. Except maybe the Folkish part.

If you truly believe your beliefs than you should be secure enough in them to not mind probing questions, questions about contradictions and down right insults towards it. Unless you are unsure enough that these things bring thoughts to the surface about your uncertainty. In which case you should examine where you stand.

[Mrs Ulf]

Only when we are able to completely breakdown and destroy our own beliefs, can we stand behind them fully without faltering.

[Mrs. G]

Only when we are able to completely breakdown and destroy our own beliefs, can we stand behind them fully without faltering.

This is entirely true. I believe that I have become stronger in my beliefs than I was before.:D

[Mrs. G]

I think Wicca is a good step towards becoming a Heathen. Some are just on the road longer than others.

Also the thing about sacrificing animals. I assume you're a vegetarian?

All the animals I've sacrificed I've eaten them. They were delicious and I gave the blood to the gods and some scraps to the dog and left the guts in the woods and ate the rest.

Not all Heathens sacrifice animals and it's not required, in fact no part of Heathenry is really 'required'. Except maybe the Folkish part.

If you truly believe your beliefs than you should be secure enough in them to not mind probing questions, questions about contradictions and down right insults towards it. Unless you are unsure enough that these things bring thoughts to the surface about your uncertainty. In which case you should examine where you stand.

Thank you for the thoughts. To answer your question about if I am a vegetarian the answer is no. I have never sacrificed an animal in my life. I don't plan on it either. Most Wiccans that I have found do not sacrifice animals at all.
:D

[Phlegethon]

Most Wiccans that I have found do not sacrifice animals at all.
:D

That's because it's all wymyn. Most men regularly strangle their cobras.

[Mrs. G]

That's because it's all wymyn. Most men regularly strangle their cobras.

It is mainly women but there are some men. I have been to a place that has both.:D

[Phlegethon]

Swinger party? ;)

[Murphy]

Wicca?.. Lol.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Gooding]

Wicca?.. Lol.

Regards,
Eóin.

People have laughed at Catholicism, too...

[Murphy]

People have laughed at Catholicism, too...

I'm sorry, but everytime I think of Wicca, I think of this film called Hocus Pocus lol!

Regards,
Eóin.

[Phlegethon]

People have laughed at Catholicism, too...

... and they burned to a crisp as a result! ;)

[Phlegethon]

I'm sorry, but everytime I think of Wicca, I think of this film called Hocus Pocus lol!

Strange, I always think of The Wickerman.

[Mrs. G]

Hocus Pocusis not a movie about Wicca. I have not seen Wickerman so I can not say anything about it. There are no movies that truly talk about wicca just movies on Witches For Instance Witches, and Hocus Pocus just to name a couple.

[Mrs. G]

Aaaaaand herein lies the problem. If you are unable to separate critiques of your religion from critiques of yourself, then you'd be better off not discussing religion at all—particularly not with those who you know are going to be critical of your chosen faith.

Do not tell me how to think or how to look at things. I do not tell you how to look at things or think. I have tried discussing things with you and you continually ask the same thing which makes me wonder if you can not think of more than one question. Ask my husband I can take critiques of myself and religion, but when my religion is attacked i take it personnally as I am sure if I attacked your religion you might take it personally as well.:p

[Mrs Ulf]

Hocus Pocusis not a movie about Wicca. I have not seen Wickerman so I can not say anything about it. There are no movies that truly talk about wicca just movies on Witches For Instance Witches, and Hocus Pocus just to name a couple.

What about 'The Witches of Eastwick', 'Practical Magic' or 'The Craft', all half truths, but still some truths. Maybe more on the side of Traditional Witchcraft, but still.

[Nodens]

Strange, I always think of The Wickerman.

Wiccans don't hold a candle to the folk of Summerisle (unless we're talking about the remake).

[Mrs. G]

If you think there has been an attack against your person, please inform the staff, as to attacks on your believes, well this is a discussion forum and that is what we do discuss things. Take a moment to read through some of the threads on Christianity, Heathery and even atheism and you will see that they all come under attack. On here ALL religions are free game.
If you wish to put up an opinion that is fine but you have to expect it to be challenged, and you will not be able to convince some people that you are right. Exactly as you would not in RL. You can put pretty much ANY opinion up on here, but if you wish to say something like the world is flat then expect ridicule.

I understand that all religions can come under attack here but when a person is attacked as well as there religion then I have a right to defend myself. I know that it is a discussion board and that is what it is for. When you made this statement you attacked me just like everyone else has except for a small few. Do not go there again.

[Psychonaut]

Do not tell me how to think or how to look at things.

I was merely making a suggestion.


I have tried discussing things with you and you continually ask the same thing which makes me wonder if you can not think of more than one question.

The question was repeated because an answer was not given. If you'd like to take another crack at it (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104074&postcount=83), I'm all ears.

[Ulf]

Do not tell me how to think or how to look at things. I do not tell you how to look at things or think. I have tried discussing things with you and you continually ask the same thing which makes me wonder if you can not think of more than one question. Ask my husband I can take critiques of myself and religion, but when my religion is attacked i take it personnally as I am sure if I attacked your religion you might take it personally as well.:p

You are not your religion. Though you act as though you were sole ambassador and pope of Wicca.

No one is making you think something or how to look at things.

You can say you can take critiques of your religion all you want but your posts and behavior betray otherwise.

My religion is attacked by these crazy Christians all the time and by my own family sometimes. I just keep a calm attitude and try to educate one step at a time. When discussing my 'religion' I try to act like an ambassador of Heathenry. You are simply acting like a child.

“The greatest compliment that was ever paid me was when one asked me what I thought, and attended to my answer.” -Thoreau

[Mrs. G]

What about 'The Witches of Eastwick', 'Practical Magic' or 'The Craft', all half truths, but still some truths. Maybe more on the side of Traditional Witchcraft, but still.

I forgot about them. Thanks for reminding me.Those were all good movies.:thumbs up

[Mrs. G]

I was merely making a suggestion.



The question was repeated because an answer was not given. If you'd like to take another crack at it (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104074&postcount=83), I'm all ears.

Every time the question was asked I answered it to the best of my knowledge if you did not like the answer then that is not my fault.:D

[Murphy]

Hocus Pocusis not a movie about Wicca. I have not seen Wickerman so I can not say anything about it. There are no movies that truly talk about wicca just movies on Witches For Instance Witches, and Hocus Pocus just to name a couple.

I realise Hocus Pocus was not about Wicca. But in the end, both are for persons with a child mentality.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Mrs Ulf]

I realise Hocus Pocus was not about Wicca. But in the end, both are for persons with a child mentality.

Regards,
Eóin.

Low blow, really. The child like mentality is better place on you for not being able to come up with anything better to say.

This comment in particular, is why Mrs. G feels like she is being attacked. You have insulted her in particular, not just her belief.

If you feel like you have something to contribute to the discussion of Wicca, and not just attack her mentality, I suggest you try again. If not, please leave your off handed comments at the door.

[Gooding]

I realise Hocus Pocus was not about Wicca. But in the end, both are for persons with a child mentality.

Regards,
Eóin.

That's my wife, kid..:mad::mad:

[Mrs. G]

Thank you Honey as well as Mrs. Ulf for standing up for me and taking my side. I appreciate your confidence in me.

[Gooding]

Thank you Honey as well as Mrs. Ulf for standing up for me and taking my side. I appreciate your confidence in me.

I might've gotten tired for a couple of seconds, fräulein, but I'll stand with you here and every damned where else.I'll defend your right to believe as you choose to the death.

[Murphy]

That's my wife, kid..:mad::mad:

I wasn't signalling your wife out personally. I am just saying every Wiccan I have come across before has seemed like nothing but children rebelling against their parents.

Much the same with atheists.


Low blow, really.

Heh.


The child like mentality is better place on you for not being able to come up with anything better to say.Perhaps I could have said it more sympathetically. But my point still stands that Wicca cannot in all honesty be taken seriously. It's no different from the nutters who think they're druids and go dance naked around Stonehenge.


This comment in particular, is why Mrs. G feels like she is being attacked. You have insulted her in particular, not just her belief.

If you feel like you have something to contribute to the discussion of Wicca, and not just attack her mentality, I suggest you try again. If not, please leave your off handed comments at the door.

Perhaps my contempt for neo-pagans is too strong for my self to contribute to this thread.

I stand by my belief that Wicca is just silliness. But Mrs G I want you to know that I wasn't exactly trying to insult you. I just don't have a high regard for your beliefs.

But it is interesting how paganism here is such a sacred subject. This forum does allow for a great freedom of speech. But a double standard does exist against us Christians. You can insult us all you want, but if we let slip some uncharitable comments, it is as if the Gates of Hell have opened against you.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Mrs. G]

You may not have a high regard for my religion and I do not have a high regard for Christians. In that respect I can respect your thought and the way that you see it.

[Gooding]

Ironically, I've nothing at all against Christianity and I have fond memories of my Catholic days.You'll never hear me damning someone because of their beliefs.My wife doesn't like Christianity at all, but she has her reasons and I respect that. My personal stance is that everyone should believe as they wish.Including my wife and her Wiccan pals.Including you too, Eoin, and your Catholic compadres.Me, too.

[Murphy]

There, we're all one big happy family again :).

Regards,
Eóin.

[Mrs Ulf]

But it is interesting how paganism here is such a sacred subject. This forum does allow for a great freedom of speech. But a double standard does exist against us Christians. You can insult us all you want, but if we let slip some uncharitable comments, it is as if the Gates of Hell have opened against you.

Please for my sake, re-read your comment. You were in fact insulting her, not her religion. Had you in fact been insulting the belief and not her, I would not have cared enough to post. When you insinuated that she has a childlike mentality for ever believing you were in fact insulting her.

In fact you might as well have been insulting all people who believe in a religion or faith. She truly believes, as much as any Christian or Pagan. Which could imply that any person who believes is just as childish. With that line of thought, it seems to me you just insulted yourself. :thumbs up

[Murphy]

That's a fair point. I did insult her. For which case I am sorry that I made the post and started a shit storm.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Mrs. G]

That's a fair point. I did insult her. For which case I am sorry that I made the post and started a shit storm.

Regards,
Eóin.

Thank you for apoligizing to me. I appreciate it.:D:thumb001:

[Óttar]

There, we're all one big happy family again :).

Regards,
Eóin.

:p :grouphug:

[Brynhild]

I've got to wonder why such a hard line has been taken in regards to Wicca on this forum, or is it the person in question? I'm not accusing, just observing. As we have seen, religious subjects are fodder and everyone has a right to their views, but before criticising any religion, you would want to be sure that you have an inkling of knowledge about it before putting your foot in it and have someone calling your bluff.

I'm not fond of what modern Wicca has become and I think Gerald Gardner was a dirty old perve who enjoyed the company of young women, but that's just my view. Having said this, the witchcraft laws were repealed in England after 1951, and it was largely due to what he was prepared to do in order for witchcraft to be seen in a more favourable light.

If it weren't for the fact that these laws were repealed in the modern world, we'd still be practising our faiths under the cloak of fear and persecution. I will never forgive the Roman Catholic church for their part in this, but I won't suggest that all Catholics are inherently bad.

Heathenry still has a bad name for itself to some degree because the NSers abused the use of the sacred symbols. Every religion has its issues and authenticity is always doubtful.

I think the root of the problem here is that Mrs G feels victimised, and she is only a relative newcomer to the forum, which exacerbates the situation. However, this goes both ways. Everyone reaps what they sow. I'm also aware that while people are passionate about what they're trying to convey, it falls into the wolf pack mentality of ganging up on someone who disagrees with the view of the clique. Why does this always happen?

[Grey]

I've got to wonder why such a hard line has been taken in regards to Wicca on this forum, or is it the person in question?

A hard line has been taken against many religions that are practiced by members of fora such as these (Heathens, Christians, Satanists). The difference, though, is that she gave no material defense of her religion and was unable to answer specific questions regarding her spirituality. If she'd have been able to give answers instead of evading questions then I don't think the argument would have been nearly as one sided.



Heathenry still has a bad name for itself to some degree because the NSers abused the use of the sacred symbols. Every religion has its issues and authenticity is always doubtful.

Aye, but the Heathens here know their religion well enough to defend it against such attacks.



I think the root of the problem here is that Mrs G feels victimised, and she is only a relative newcomer to the forum, which exacerbates the situation.

She is new, yes, but it was her idea to make an open thread about her religion. If she's taking questions, she needs to accept that they won't all be the questions she wants to hear.


Personally, I don't have a side in the matter. I'm just waiting to hear actual answers. I'm not necessarily opposed to a folkish wiccan, though I'm not sure how one would go about it or why.

[Baron Samedi]

Traditional Witchcraft "is" fascinating, and I would implore most of you to look into it, as it varies per culture.

Stregeria (probably misspelled because it's late) of the Italians, Braucheri/Pow Wow for the Penn. Germans, and there is even (apparently) some "traditional" (aka non-wiccan) witchcraft from the British Isles that is sort of making a small ripple-esque comback (check out the Witching Way of Hollow Hill by Robin Artisson).

[Ulf]

Witchcraft =/ Wicca. Far from it.

She's the only Wiccan here. As far as I know, unless others want to stand up.

This is why she's being 'persecuted'.

It's not an attack on her, most of the people here have a lot of questions about Wicca and she's now the outlet.

[Mrs. G]

Thanks for this. I was mainly wanting this thread to let everyone know about my faith and ask questions like what is the Fae faith, Where can I find out more about it and this type of thing. I knew that certain people were going to skeptical and that I do not mind either. But when I was being attacked and victimized that truly hurt. Again Thanks brynhild for your words of wisdom.:D:thumb001::)

[Baron Samedi]

Witchcraft =/ Wicca. Far from it.

She's the only Wiccan here. As far as I know, unless others want to stand up.

This is why she's being 'persecuted'.

It's not an attack on her, most of the people here have a lot of questions about Wicca and she's now the outlet.

I realize that.

I was just making a statement for those that equate both of those together.

To be honest, I started out with Wicca, sort of. Mainly for the Celtic roots of it.

Nowadays, I find myself interested in it once again, but that's mainly because I'm seeing connotations between it and what the Golden Dawn/Crowley practiced.

Anyone ever heard of the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? I know you have, Psychonaut!

I'm fairly certain Gardner completely ripped-off Crowley and the Golden Dawn when he "discovered" Wicca. LOL

[Murphy]

The Hammer against Witches (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/part_I/mm01_toc.html)

Malleus Maleficarum

[The Lawspeaker]

The Witches Hammer (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/part_I/mm01_toc.html)

Malleus Maleficarum


The Catholic Civilization speaks again. :rolleyes2:

[Baron Samedi]

The Hammer against Witches (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/part_I/mm01_toc.html)

Malleus Maleficarum


Fascinating read, I must say....

But yes... We get it.... You love Jesus.

[Murphy]

The Catholic Civilization speaks again. :rolleyes2:

The Apricity Forum: Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation

Seeing as you owe the existance of European civilisation to the Catholic Church, I would show a bit more respect. Otherwise I would question as to why you participate on a forum for ethnic European preservation

[Murphy]

Fascinating read, I must say....

But yes... We get it.... You love Jesus.

I just wish to show the Catholic Church's posistion on witches and witchcraft. But yes indeed, I do love Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ :thumb001:!

[Mrs Ulf]

I realize that.

I was just making a statement for those that equate both of those together.

To be honest, I started out with Wicca, sort of. Mainly for the Celtic roots of it.

Nowadays, I find myself interested in it once again, but that's mainly because I'm seeing connotations between it and what the Golden Dawn/Crowley practiced.

Anyone ever heard of the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? I know you have, Psychonaut!

I'm fairly certain Gardner completely ripped-off Crowley and the Golden Dawn when he "discovered" Wicca. LOL

Wicca is NOT Traditional Witchcraft at all. Its more like much of the Heathens here, who acknowledge the morals but don't follow the gods.

Traditional Craft is more about the work of reviving a specific heritages spiritual work and spell craft than anything. Deals mostly with the energy work and rarely involves gods.

Wicca is a very separate thing. While it used to a overused term for all witches it is not anymore. Wicca has become its own entity which is a good thing. It keeps its personal practices separate from the rest of the witches who most of the time are Atheists.

[Ulf]

Bracing for shitstorm.

[Baron Samedi]

The Apricity Forum: Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation

Seeing as you owe the existance of European civilisation to the Catholic Church, I would show a bit more respect. Otherwise I would question as to why you participate on a forum for ethnic European preservation

Ummm, no.....

In any case, Christianity most certainly has NOTHING to do with the topic. Fuck off.

People like you are ruining the potential of this thread.

[Nodens]

Bracing for shitstorm.

A bit late now.

[Baron Samedi]

Wicca is NOT Traditional Witchcraft at all. Its more like much of the Heathens here, who acknowledge the morals but don't follow the gods.

Traditional Craft is more about the work of reviving a specific heritages spiritual work and spell craft than anything. Deals mostly with the energy work and rarely involves gods.

Wicca is a very separate thing. While it used to a overused term for all witches it is not anymore. Wicca has become its own entity which is a good thing. It keeps its personal practices separate from the rest of the witches who most of the time are Atheists.

As I said.... I know this.

I wanted others to be aware that there is witchcraft out there that isn't fluffy as shit in the least.

Hell.... There is even a Luciferian brand of witchcraft that a few folk practice. Traditional or not, it's still a hell of a lot more potent/darker than most "fluffy" forms of Wicca.

(This was not a burn against any Wiccans, btw).

[Mrs. G]

Witchcraft =/ Wicca. Far from it.

She's the only Wiccan here. As far as I know, unless others want to stand up.

This is why she's being 'persecuted'.

It's not an attack on her, most of the people here have a lot of questions about Wicca and she's now the outlet.

Do you know what it is like to be persecuted? I have not even been able to come out to my family and tell them the religion that I follow except to my mom.
:zip-lip:

I do not mind being an outlet for anyone who really wants to know more about witchcraft and wicca. I will answer questions to the best of my ability, If a person asks a question that I have answered to the best of my ability and they do not like the answer then that is not my fault. I must then assume that they are looking for more of an answer than I can give.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Apricity Forum: Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation

Seeing as you owe the existance of European civilisation to the Catholic Church, I would show a bit more respect. Otherwise I would question as to why you participate on a forum for ethnic European preservation
F.ck you. People like you always remind me why I left the church. :rolleyes:
Err no- Europe was originally actually pagan and Christianity actually is an invader.
But Protestantism can be more easily united with the free spirit of the European peoples instead of that slave religion from Rome.

[Murphy]

Ummm, no.....

Are all of the people on this forum as ignorant as yourself and Lawspeaker then? God I hope not.


In any case, Christianity most certainly has NOTHING to do with the topic.

That is not true. Souls are at stake here and that has everything to do with Christianity.


Fuck off.

That was rather rude.


People like you are ruining the potential of this thread.

I am sorry you feel that way.

[Mrs Ulf]

As I said.... I know this.

I wanted others to be aware that there is witchcraft out there that isn't fluffy as shit in the least.

Hell.... There is even a Luciferian brand of witchcraft that a few folk practice. Traditional or not, it's still a hell of a lot more potent/darker than most "fluffy" forms of Wicca.

(This was not a burn against any Wiccans, btw).

Agreed, I'm glad we could share this bit for the rest of them. I just wanted to point out that there is a huge portion of witchcraft that has nothing to do with wicca or gods at all. :thumbs up

[The Lawspeaker]

Are all of the people on this forum as ignorant as yourself and Lawspeaker then? God I hope not.
Give me a break. Ignorant ? Man- I am not even a Catholic anymore. Go to Africa and spread your poison cloud of a religion there.








That was rather rude.
Not at all. It is the proper way to adress missionaries.
I say exactly the same thing to people like the Jehovah's Witnesses.


Ooh and sorry by the way. I insulted religion by putting "Catholicism" and "religion" in one single sentence. Pyramid scheme would be a better way to put it.

[Murphy]

F.ck you.

Again, very rude.


People like you always remind me why I left the church. :rolleyes:

Interesting. So you abandoned the One True Church of Jesus Christ because some people made you feel bad? I certainly have got the gist of the integrity of your character now.


Err no- Europe was originally actually pagan and Christianity actually is an invader.

Europe was indeed originally pagan. But I would not characterise Christianity is an invader. You make it sound as if Christian thought and philosophy was completely alien to Europe which it wasn't.


But Protestantism can be more easily united with the free spirit of the European peoples instead of that slave religion from Rome.

Yes, because we all know how free our Protestant brethren were in the Netherlands when they were first enslaved to Jewish bankers. Equating Protestantism and freedom has given me a good laugh tonight, I thank you most heartily :).

[Mrs Ulf]

Can it please be advised that this is a discussion about Wicca, if you find the need to sidetrack from this, please create your own thread.

[Gooding]

But there are many of us former Catholics here..:) I concur with Mrs.Ulf's above statement, by the way.

[The Lawspeaker]

Again, very rude.
Not at all. I actually held back.





Interesting. So you abandoned the One True Church of Jesus Christ because some people made you feel bad? I certainly have got the gist of the integrity of your character now.
Yes. It made me a mature human being. I can think for myself- thank you.




Europe was indeed originally pagan. But I would not characterise Christianity is an invader. You make it sound as if Christian thought and philosophy was completely alien to Europe which it wasn't.
You must be bullshitting me. Here comes a religion at the point of a sword. Not alien to Europe ? Where did your get your education ? The Vatican ?




Yes, because we all know how free our Protestant brethren were in the Netherlands when they were first enslaved to Jewish bankers. Equating Protestantism and freedom has given me a good laugh tonight, I thank you most heartily :).
http://www.cadebsminishop.be/images/sticker-fuck-you-finger.JPG

Yes the Netherlands can indeed be very pleased. Catholicism did wonderful things here...


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FeRv5Cguz-E/SQsR9K72OEI/AAAAAAAAEgU/xROtLFnwdS0/s400/witch_burning.bmp

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Incendio_Ayuntamiento_Amberes.jpg

[Mrs. G]

and former christians too.

[Brynhild]

Can it please be advised that this is a discussion about Wicca, if you find the need to sidetrack from this, please create your own thread.

I've already done This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=105363#post105363) in the hope that there won't be any more hijacking.

[Mrs. G]

Mrs. Ulf and Brynhild thanks for trying to get it back on track.

[Murphy]

Give me a break. Ignorant ?

Yes, ignorant :).


Man- I am not even a Catholic anymore.Once Catholic, always Catholic. It's a little like the ol' saying 'Once you go black, you never go back :D!


Go to Africa and spread your poison cloud of a religion there.I think Europe is a little more in need of staunch Catholic men than Africa right now. In the words of the immortal Hilaire Belloc 'Europe will return to the Faith, or she will perish.'


Not at all. It is the proper way to adress missionaries.Thank God I never intend on taking a trip the Netherlands if that is how you treat people.


I say exactly the same thing to people like the Jehovah's Witnesses.Well, you've got me there. It seems we share the same guilty pleasure ;).


Ooh and sorry by the way. I insulted religion by putting "Catholicism" and "religion" in one single sentence. Pyramid scheme would be a better way to put it.

Coming from a man who supports Protestantism? Ha!

[Mrs Ulf]

I've already done This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=105363#post105363) in the hope that there won't be any more hijacking.

Thanks very much Byrnhild! :thumbs up

[Gooding]

I've already done This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=105363#post105363) in the hope that there won't be any more hijacking.

Thank you, Brynhild!:)

[Mrs. G]

Thanks Brynhild:):D:thumb001:

[Murphy]

Not at all. I actually held back.

Very well. It was not very rude it was simply rude


Yes. It made me a mature human being.

I am not so sure on that score.


I can think for myself- thank you.

Of course you can! You think exactly what he wants you to think :).


You must be bullshitting me. Here comes a religion at the point of a sword. Not alien to Europe ? Where did your get your education ? The Vatican ?

Oh, the sword played it's part in Europe's Christianisation. But you seem to forget many a time it was a Christian at the pointy end of the sword.


Rude hand gesture

Very mature :D!


Yes the Netherlands can indeed be very pleased. Catholicism did wonderful things here...

It did indeed do many wonderful things. But I would take your history with a pinch of salt. We all know how much Protestants like to pervert truth to fit their own needs.

[Mrs Ulf]

Very well. It was not very rude it was simply rude



I am not so sure on that score.



Of course you can! You think exactly what he wants you to think :).



Oh, the sword played it's part in Europe's Christianisation. But you seem to forget many a time it was a Christian at the pointy end of the sword.



Very mature :D!



It did indeed do many wonderful things. But I would take your history with a pinch of salt. We all know how much Protestants like to pervert truth to fit their own needs.

You are not contributing to the discussion about Wiccans anymore, please take it to the post Brynhild provided at the top of the page, please.

[Murphy]

You are not contributing to the discussion about Wiccans anymore, please take it to the post Brynhild provided at the top of the page, please.

Yes, I saw that after I posted my reply. I shall leave you all in peace, I said what needed to be said :).

[Gooding]

Yes, I saw that after I posted my reply. I shall leave you all in peace, I said what needed to be said :).

May peace be upon you as well..

[SuuT]

http://www.pushingplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/facepalm.png

http://getbent57.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/polar-bear-face-palm-thumbnail.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_f3SZ5Tu916o/R_OXSVck4uI/AAAAAAAAFtI/_W0lTsnitWo/s400/FacePalm_qjgenth.jpg

http://el8.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/facepalm2.jpg

http://14.media.tumblr.com/bLjlTcuJUetnohyu7v1NemzTo1_400.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/2773884043_3c0e517a9c.jpg?v=0

http://thebornotaku.com/images/implied-facepalm.jpg

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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y8uiVAM4Y7Y/SpDbDflM4CI/AAAAAAAAHIA/GIl4FDzwsk0/s400/face-palm.jpg

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/user/2/21187-101796-facepalm6jpg-468x.jpg

http://www.mizozo.com/images/item_images/3000/2125_gallery.jpg

http://www.dailymission.com/data/mission/orig/24ae1-Baby-Facepalm.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ebKDfm0h1oI/SRA8R6OpcTI/AAAAAAAAEzA/M00VXKTdBzc/s1600/facepalm-statue.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qb-X-glOJAE/Sk1Ak1T-hCI/AAAAAAAAEig/CnL8gHvrvLU/s400/lion_facepalm.jpg

[Lutiferre]

that religious function is, like in the Abrahamic faiths, lost entirely.
Throughout history, the Church has been the ethnically and socially cohesive factor in any Christian nation, in which the people, entire small villages, were assembled in all major events and every sunday.



You must be bullshitting me. Here comes a religion at the point of a sword.

What are you talking about? Most of Europe converted voluntarily. Denmarks king voluntarily converted to Christianity, and even before he did, large parts of the people were already baptised Christians.

[Psychonaut]

Anyone ever heard of the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? I know you have, Psychonaut!

:nod: You have no idea how many times I've performed the LBRP, GRP and BRH, but never again! :D


Throughout history, the Church has been the ethnically and socially cohesive factor in any Christian nation, in which the people, entire small villages, were assembled in all major events and every sunday.

This was not, however, due to any doctrinal tendency, but was a holdover from earlier European views on religion (as is much of early European Christianity). The universalism at Christianity's core has degenerated this cohesive function into a vehicle for multiculturalism and globalism.

[Lutiferre]

This was not, however, due to any doctrinal tendency, but was a holdover from earlier European views on religion
No. It was neither a doctrinal tendency, nor a holdover from anything else.

It was the natural effect of the unity in religious beliefs and practices. This cohesiveness emerges in all societies for those reasons, and needs no outside provocation, no "doctrinal definition".

The same is the case for practising Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Shamanists, etc.


The universalism at Christianity's core has degenerated this cohesive function into a vehicle for multiculturalism and globalism.
The universalism of Christianity has nothing to do with ethnic cohesiveness of individual Christian nations, but with making such Christian nations (with the fact that Christianity is for all nations). This cohesiveness was preserved and even strengthened by Christianity, since only the Christianisation ended the infighting in many nations.

[Psychonaut]

The universalism of Christianity has nothing to do with ethnic cohesiveness of individual Christian nations

It's been a vehicle for the importation and attempted assimilation of untold numbers of third world peoples. Good job Christianity!

[Lutiferre]

It's been a vehicle for the importation and attempted assimilation of untold numbers of third world peoples. Good job Christianity!
Up in the time in which Christianity has been weakened by secularist, pagan philosophies.

But amazingly, no such thing happened in the millennium in which Christianity exerted it's strongest influence on ethnopolitics.

[Óttar]

I'm fairly certain Gardner completely ripped-off Crowley and the Golden Dawn when he "discovered" Wicca. LOL
Not so much that as he was a member of the same Occult "chain of transmission" as Crowley, or silsila to use a Sufi term.

Crowley was deeply influenced by Freemasonry and the Russian Orthodox Rite, in this way, Gardner was not alone in "ripping off" so to speak.

[Grey]

Up in the time in which Christianity has been weakened by secularist, pagan philosophies.

But amazingly, no such thing happened in the millennium in which Christianity exerted it's strongest influence on ethnopolitics.

Christianity is imperial in nature, much like Islam. Its goal was never to preserve what is European; its ultimate goal is to absorb the entirety of the humanity into one Christian society by any means available. Like Islam, it only believes in destroying the infidels as long as they are just that. The moment a person of any race accepts Jesus they become part of the all-encompassing Christian community.

It's worse than multi-cultural; it's mono-cultural, and it thinks that we should all be part of that culture.

[Lutiferre]

Christianity is imperial in nature, much like Islam.
No. Islams goal is a temporal "caliphate". Christianity has no such goal; it's ecclesiastical goals and government are not centered around an ambition of a global empire, since all such aspirations have failed in the past and will continue to do so in the future.


Its goal was never to preserve what is European;
It is a religion. If it's goal was to "preserve what is European", it would cease being a religion.

What Christianity has done is something even bigger. And that is, to create what is European, because "preservation" already presupposes that a geocultural entity known as Europe (of whom we are all a product) exists. However, such a geocultural entity was only created by Christianism in the common developments in individual nations to form the block we call Europe.


It's worse than multi-cultural; it's mono-cultural, and it thinks that we should all be part of that culture.
It's not multi or mono cultural. There is no dogmatic Christian doctrine with regards ethnopolitics (though Christian nations have been almost universally homogeneous throughout the history of Christian rule, and only ceased being so during the secularization), and Jesus call was to "baptize all the nations", not to intermingle them.

[Grey]

No. Islams goal is a temporal "caliphate". Christianity has no such goal; it's ecclesiastical goals and government are not centered around an ambition of a global empire, since all such aspirations have failed in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

No ambition of a global empire? This looks like a palace to me:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6163/insidethevatican.jpg

And my, is has it grown:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7844/christianpercentagebyco.png

Obviously the poor old pope, living in squalor, has no interest in converting pagans; they just choose to become Christian, no bloodshed involved :rolleyes:

And its not like Christians have a pattern of filling their own coffers with the money of locals or subverting local politics to further their own agendas.



It is a religion. If it's goal was to "preserve what is European", it would cease being a religion.

What Christianity has done is something even bigger. And that is, to create what is European, because "preservation" already presupposes that a geocultural entity known as Europe (of whom we are all a product) exists. However, such a geocultural entity was only created by Christianism in the common developments in individual nations to form the block we call Europe.

So Christianity has already destroyed regional pride in favor of a pan-Christian identity, uniting several ethnic groups into one religious one? I'm sorry if I don't see the good in that.



It's not multi or mono cultural. There is no dogmatic Christian doctrine with regards ethnopolitics (though Christian nations have been almost universally homogeneous throughout the history of Christian rule, and only ceased being so during the secularization), and Jesus call was to "baptize all the nations", not to intermingle them.

Tell that to the mestizos.

[Lutiferre]

No ambition of a global empire? This looks like a palace to me:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6163/insidethevatican.jpg

And my, is has it grown:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7844/christianpercentagebyco.png

Obviously the poor old pope, living in squalor, has no interest in converting pagans; they just choose to become Christian, no bloodshed involved :rolleyes:
Yes, we do want to baptize the nations. But that is not the same as the doctrine of a temporal empire in Islam, which is absent in Christianity.


So Christianity has already destroyed regional pride in favor of a pan-Christian identity, uniting several ethnic groups into one religious one? I'm sorry if I don't see the good in that.
You are wrong. Christians who really have faith don't confuse ethnicity and faith. In the faith, there is neither Greek nor Hebrew, because ethnicity is not the concern of faith.

[Grey]

Yes, we do want to baptize the nations. But that is not the same as the doctrine of a temporal empire in Islam, which is absent in Christianity.

Whether or not you believe your empire to be temporal is irrelevant.


You are wrong. Christians who really have faith don't confuse ethnicity and faith. In the faith, there is neither Greek nor Hebrew, because ethnicity is not the concern of faith.

Exactly. There is no such thing as ethnicity in your religion. You join hands with the same ones that would seek to destroy what's left of Europe. And the results can be seen throughout the continent.

[Lutiferre]

Whether or not you believe your empire to be temporal is irrelevant.
That was not at all my point. You seem to be unable to understand the difference between wanting to baptize the nations, which means conversion of religion, and on the contrary, wanting to take the state power, which is absorbing government. The goal of Christianity is the former; the kingdom of God is within you.


Exactly. There is no such thing as ethnicity in your religion.
There is ethnicity. You simply could not comprehend my point, which was that you are not going to heaven because you are a Greek or a Hebrew or male or female but because of how you as a person relate to the Divinity.

As Paul says: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female.

But this does not mean that there ceases to be ethnicities or genders in the temporal realm.

Because, as Paul also says: Women should remain silent in the churches. They must be in submission.

Likewise, there are ethnicities and nations, and these are different, just like the genders are different.

[Grey]

At this point I think we're flogging a dead horse. This argument has been reliving itself for a long time and isn't going to end any time soon. I'm not going to become a Christian and you're not going to renounce the religion. We understand each other, and that's enough.

[Lutiferre]

At this point I think we're flogging a dead horse. This argument has been reliving itself for a long time and isn't going to end any time soon. I'm not going to become a Christian and you're not going to renounce the religion. We understand each other, and that's enough.
Don't worry, I had no expectation that you would become a Christian.

I was simply rejecting certain misrepresentations of Christian teaching and showing why they are demonstrably false.

[anonymaus]

May peace be upon you as well..

http://religionandmorality.net/recent-news/photoalbum/images/Muslim-protest.jpg

عليه السلام

[Gooding]

http://religionandmorality.net/recent-news/photoalbum/images/Muslim-protest.jpg

عليه السلام

Got to love our selective Western media..:p Is that the only pic of pissed off Muslims in the web media? What are they protesting? The Palestinians were celebrating the end of Ramadan in that clip they showed on them after 9-11, but did the media clarify that?How to get to know these "Muzzies"? Talk to them and get their take on things.

[Electronic God-Man]

http://religionandmorality.net/recent-news/photoalbum/images/Muslim-protest.jpg

عليه السلام

Wut? Is that one Muslim in the back holding a sign saying "Europe you will pay, FANTASTIC FOUR are on their way"?

Islam just got interesting.

http://www.comicrelief.net/images/BC%20Books/Covers/Fantastic%20Four%204.jpg

[Psychonaut]

Talk to them and get their take on things.

The Army knows how to talk to them...

VUs8RIEgipI

[Gooding]

The Army knows how to talk to them...

VUs8RIEgipI

That's very telling..no wonder so many outside the U.S. are so angry at us.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's very telling..no wonder so many outside the U.S. are so angry at us.
It works. And those Muslim pricks had it coming anyways.

[Psychonaut]

That's very telling..no wonder so many outside the U.S. are so angry at us.

Who's got two thumbs and doesn't give a flying fuck what a bunch of backwater Muslims think?

http://rlv.zcache.com/whos_got_2_thumbs_this_guy_tshirt-p235448326474633891yfvx_400.jpg

[Mrs. G]

This thread has gotten out of hand. I wash my hands of it. Whatever you post on here from now on is on ya'll. I want to thank all of those who did support me and not judge me for my religion. To those of you I say Thank you Very much

[Gooding]

This thread has gotten out of hand. I wash my hands of it. Whatever you post on here from now on is on ya'll. I want to thank all of those who did support me and not judge me for my religion. To those of you I say Thank you Very much

Here's to the first online Heathen Inquisition!:eek::cool:

[Ulf]

Here's to the first online Heathen Inquisition!:eek::cool:

And here's to many more!

Odin über alles!

[Gooding]

Who's got two thumbs and doesn't give a flying fuck what a bunch of backwater Muslims think?

http://rlv.zcache.com/whos_got_2_thumbs_this_guy_tshirt-p235448326474633891yfvx_400.jpg

Who's got two middle fingers and a whole lot of contempt for religious bigotry? Moi!:p Wonderful logical argument, btw.:thumb001:
To Lawspeaker: Without question the governments deserved to be rased to the ground. In fact, Arabia itself should've been nuked, as the Bin Ladens were from that area. The people ought to be seperated from their governments, though, don't you think? As I said earlier, the Muslims of my acquaintance do not seem to be villains. I won't set Islam up for further vilification, as people seem a little sadistically eager to do that themselves. If Muslims see themselves disrespected, they'll return it in kind and with interest. What the hell is wrong with Catholicism? Same as with Wicca. Not a damned thing.What's wrong with Judaism, or Hinduism, or Religio Romana, or Heathenism? Not a fucking thing. Nothing wrong with atheism or agnosticism, either. This thread has spun to an interesting point. It's boiled down to "if you don't believe as we do, we're going to put you through hell." I said that sounded familiar and it does. A sad attempt for history to repeat itself with a brand new set of inquisitors.

[Vulpix]

Got to love our selective Western media..:p Is that the only pic of pissed off Muslims in the web media? What are they protesting? The Palestinians were celebrating the end of Ramadan in that clip they showed on them after 9-11, but did the media clarify that?How to get to know these "Muzzies"? Talk to them and get their take on things.

Oh there is plenty! Just google "angry muslims" if you don't believe me.

Just a small selection from http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=9

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-002.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-003.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-004.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-005.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-006.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-009.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-010.jpg

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-London1.jpg



The lovely, huggable chaps depicted were prostesting the publication of the infamous Mohammed cartoons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy). Location of these shots: London, UK, Europe.

Still fancy a chat with these bozos?

[Loki]

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-004.jpg


Rogue apostrophe goddamit! :cussing

[Phlegethon]

Did you notice that all the signs are in the same handwriting? Looks like an ADL-sonsored rent-a-mob operation to me. Most muslims don't speak or write proper English anyway. You should not believe everything you see on TV.

[Grey]

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-010.jpg

I like the inconspicuous spelling error coverup.

[Phlegethon]

Hey, paper is expensive there!

[anonymaus]

How to get to know these "Muzzies"? Talk to them and get their take on things.


May peace be upon you as well..

Am I not already doing so? :yawn:

[Gooding]

Still fancy a chat with these bozos?

Fascinating.. it seems that either the American Muslims are more subdued and milder in their presentation of their issues, or the Muslims in Europe are given far more latitude in their expression.Also, how many years ago were these pictures taken? I agree that a cartoon shouldn't have provoked such a reaction, but were there other tensions that were building up and the cartoon issues simply acted as a catalyst? Did these immigrants feel a grudge because they knew that many of the people in their adopted countries refused to welcome them and wouldn't even regard them as human? As I said, my acquaintance with them, as someone who lives in a southern suburb of the DC Metropolitan area, hasn't included any tension with the Persians or Arabs in the area. The people who kick up all the shit around here are Hispanics, usually Salvadorans. In Real Life, I've never met a disruptive Muslim.In Real Life, I've only met around, roughly four Catholics who were militant, everyone else was fine. In Real Life, that is. The Net is wonderful for seeing what one wants to see. My issue is only with those who would deny others their freedom of religious expression, as long as that expression does not infringe upon the rights of others. My wife was presented with a bunch of rapid fire questions intended to force her to question her faith. That didn't work. Now, Islam is under fire. When the Hindus and Secularists are under fire, you can count on me to be at the front line, doing my best to stand up for them, too. When there are refutations offered, the questioner will either LOL or tell the person to fuck off, not even bothering to defend their religion the same way that they demanded their current object to defend his or hers. My wife just thanked her supporters on this thread and told everybody else to piss off. Now, knowing that there will be little to no logical discourse( pictures can be easily doctored and ultimately mean nothing) about this topic, I'm just going to follow my wife's example. Religious circle-jerking has never been a hobby of mine. Enjoy.

[Puddle of Mudd]

http://middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-006.jpg



*Homosexual voice* Well, I'll you one thing, I'd rather be slain then CAUGHT wearing those apparels, can one say fashion atrocity? Hmmm?

[Óttar]

I can't believe the UK allows these Muslim clerics on welfare calling for the destruction of the UK to live. The classic punishment for traitors is disembowelment. When I was in India, one of the hosts asked me "what happened to the British, they used to like, kick everyone's ass!?"

[Psychonaut]

My issue is only with those who would deny others their freedom of religious expression, as long as that expression does not infringe upon the rights of others.

Freedom of religion is one thing. Treason is another. Allow me to quote from the US Constitution (Article III, Section 3):


Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Calling for Jihad is not religious expression. It is treason.

[Gooding]

Freedom of religion is one thing. Treason is another. Allow me to quote from the US Constitution (Article III, Section 3):



Calling for Jihad is not religious expression. It is treason.

Greater jihad or Lesser? The Greater Jihad is the internal struggle to overcome one's vices and to put God first.The Lesser Jihad is something that isn't even applicable in today's world.People trying to stamp Islam out of existence ended centuries ago and terrorism is something I'll never condone. Deluded Mullahs do need to get over themselves and just do their jobs and teach.

[Gooding]

Am I not already doing so? :yawn:

All righty then. Yes, as a matter of fact you are and I feel terrible about wasting all this time trying to play diplomat to those determined kafurun who are determined to disrespect my faith. I declared Shahada last July, observed my first Ramadan this year and am a student of the Grand Ayatollah Fadlallah of the Jafar'i school of the Shi'a sect of Islam. I do believe in One transcendent God, that Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h.) was the Final Messenger of Allah and that Ali, Commander of the Faithful, was the Prophet's (p.b.u.h.) legitimate successor of which there were twelve. I believe that when Judgment Day comes, Allah will sort everyone out according to their faith and their deeds and that the only one who's qualified to judge is Allah.I say my five daily salawat, eat halal food and follow the only truly uncorrupted monotheistic faith in the world today. I even read the Qur'an in transliterated Arabic, which is how I memorized my prayers. I'll answer any questions I deem legitimate. Expressions of personal prejudice will be met with all the contempt it deserves. You'll receive the same courtesy you give, because right now, I just don't give a fuck.

[Mrs. G]

Hon whatever you have to say and however you think is right to answer those questions I am behind you one hundred precent. I will always be behind you. Always realize it.:):thumb001::D

[The Lawspeaker]

What the bloody hell...?