Poll: Should Turks have to return to Central Asia and Arabs to Arabia?

[Anglojew]

One of the arguments often used by Muslims against Israel's existence is that it's illegitimate because Jews came from Europe and elsewhere (which ignores our deep cultural, ethnic and spiritual connection to our homeland throughout 2,000 years of exile) and should pack up and move back to Europe and elsewhere. I find it ironic that Turks and Arabs argue this considering by this logic they have a much less legitimate claim to most of the countries they now inhabit which were captured, often by force, from their original inhabitants be they Greeks, Kurds, Copts, Berbers, Assyrians, Armenians, Chaldeans and others.

So, should Turks return to Central Asia and should Arabs return to Arabia?

[Marko]

i think the Jews should be removed from Europe and America. Or let the Germans finish them.

[riverman]

Turks aren't really natives of Central Asia, they're a mixture of peoples, my best guess.

[Annihilus]

I know you made this thread because of me. First I never said Israel should stop to exists and/or that Jews leave. I was arguing about your genetics and how that came to be through history. I think comparing Palestinians (biblical Jews) to Israeli's (modern Jews) is a legit way to understand more about this.

[Anglojew]

i think the Jews should be removed from Europe and America.

http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Caucasian-Albania-in-Context-Map.jpg

[YeshAtid]

I know you made this thread because of me. First I never said Israel should stop to exists and/or that Jews leave. I was arguing about your genetics and how that came to be through history. I think comparing Palestinians (biblical Jews) to Israeli's (modern Jews) is a legit way to understand more about this.

Israelis are natives lol

[Lucifer]

it's not because turks and arabs colonized land centuries ago that it's ok to do it today.

[Anglojew]

I know you made this thread because of me. First I never said Israel should stop to exists and/or that Jews leave. I was arguing about your genetics and how that came to be through history. I think comparing Palestinians (biblical Jews) to Israeli's (modern Jews) is a legit way to understand more about this.

Let's argue about Turkey's right to exist for a change. Convince me you're not occupying Greece, Armenia and Kurdistan.

[Anglojew]

it's not because turks and arabs colonized land centuries ago that it's ok to do it today.

At what point does the statutes of limitations end because most Arab states and Turkey were created only after 1917.

[Lucifer]

At what point does the statutes of limitations end because most Arab states and Turkey were created only after 1917.

what is done is done, but the colonization of west bank is wrong according to today' standarts.

[Annihilus]

So Anglojew what would the world think if we went and occupied the territories around mount Altai and started a new country there saying we have a right to do so because of our myths?

[Anglojew]

what is done is done, but the colonization of west bank is wrong according to today' standarts.

How about the colonization of Kurdistan, Irian Jaya, Western Sahara etc?

Why does Turkey and the Arabs have a right to occupy Kurdistan (and Northern Cyprus)?

[Lucifer]

How about the colonization of Kurdistan, Irian Jaya, Western Sahara etc?

Why does Turkey and the Arabs have a right to occupy Kurdistan (and Northern Cyprus)?

those are also wrong, stealing other people land is a shame.

[Anglojew]

So Anglojew what would the world think if we went and occupied the territories around mount Altai and started a new country there saying we have a right to do so because of our myths?

Europe would be pretty happy I'd say.

[Methusalem]

All humans should go back to East Africa.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Human_migration_out_of_Africa.png

[Annihilus]

Let's argue about Turkey's right to exist for a change. Convince me you're not occupying Greece, Armenia and Kurdistan.

I can but why should I, I never asked you the same about israel.

[Anglojew]

those are also wrong, stealing other people land is a shame.

So will you lobby Turks on this forum to give Kurds independence?

[Anglojew]

I can but why should I, I never asked you the same about israel.

In other-words you can't.

[Annihilus]

Europe would be pretty happy I'd say.

But would the people already living there be?

[Annihilus]

In other-words you can't.

It's not that, it's just that you are making wrong analogies and I won't fall for it.

[wvwvw]

Israel occupies a small strip of land, why can't they have their own country? They have been ethnically cleansed from Arabia by Muhammad and because of him they are now hated by all Muslims. Isn't amaziing that they managed to survive through so many centuries of persecution and ethnic cleansing? Only for this fact they deserve to have their own country.

[Annihilus]

Israel occupies a small strip of land, why can't they have their own country? They have been ethnically cleansed from Arabia by Muhammad and because of him they are now hated by all Muslims. Isn't amaziing that they managed to survive through so many centuries of persecution and ethnic cleansing? Only for this fact they deserve to have their own country.

By that line of thought Israel should be in Germany.

[Anglojew]

But would the people already living there be?

If they became the largest per capita recipients of aid money in the history of the world, like the Palestinians, I'd say they'd be pretty happy. Maybe we could give them a referendum before moving Turkey there just to make sure?

[Methusalem]

Israel occupies a small strip of land, why can't they have their own country? They have been ethnically cleansed from Arabia by Muhammad and because of him they are now hated by all Muslims. Isn't amaziing that they managed to survive through so many centuries of persecution and ethnic cleansing? Only for this fact they deserve to have their own country.

There is no higher legitimate claim for 'deserving' a own country.

[Annihilus]

If they became the largest per capita recipients of aid money in the history of the world, like the Palestinians, I'd say they'd be pretty happy. Maybe we could give them a referendum before moving Turkey there just to make sure?

I think freedom is worth more than aid money no matter how much it is.

[wvwvw]

Dear Jim Rea,

Allow me first to thank you for reading through all the FAQ part. Also I thank you for being so civil in your email. Alas many believe rudeness is a substitute to strong arguments.

You asked, “How do you reconcile your humanist views with the creation of a state for a particular religious group (Israel) on the principle of ethnic cleansing?

Of course this is a loaded question. I am in no ways supporter of the Israeli government in their use of excessive force against the unarmed Palestinians. It is also regrettable that a group of them has occupied the land that traditionally belonged to the Palestinians, driving them out of their homes and building permanent settlements. Nevertheless, claiming that Israel acts by “the principle of ethnic cleansing” is unfair and untrue. Ethnic cleansing is what The Prophet Muhammad and Hitler did to the Jews. What Hitler did to Jews, despite some Muslim’s denial of holocaust is clearly known. But the holocaust of the Jews by the Prophet is not as much publicized.

Moreover, you seem to disagree with the creation of Israel as a “state for a particular religion”. Of course I disagree with the creation of any state with the pretext of religion. This means that I disagree with the creation of Pakistan, I disagree with the Muslims in Kashmir who want secession from India. I disagree with Islamic Republic of Iran, as a matter of fact I disagree with Islam because Islam’s main goal is what you and I dislike and that is the creation of Islamic states. You know that Islam has separated the world in two camps, Dar al Islam (Land of Islam) and Dar al Harb (Land of War). A Muslim is required to make war is Dar al Harb, kill the infidels and force them into accepting Islam and then establish the Islamic sole rule. Islam calls itself Din-e Qaleb (the dominant religion). This is highly fascistic and inhumane. May I ask you now if you really dislike the creation of any state under the name of a religion and for a particular religious group why don’t you denounce Islam?

Now let me go back to your question. Judaism is the name of the religion of the Jews but Jews are also a nation. These are two different things with the same name. Israel is a secular country. Many Jews do not believe in God let alone in Judaism. If you read the history (I recommend Who Wrote The Bible by Richard Elliott Friedman) you’ll realize that the religion of Judaism is invented to safeguard the integrity of the nation of Israel. Today the religion of Judaism is irrelevant, outdated and superfluous, yet the Jews as a nation need to have a land to call their own. They belong to Israel just as I belong to Iran. Israel is given to the Jews in reaction to what happened to millions of them during the WWII. Every human being must have a place to call home. I do not agree with Islam that denies this right to the Jews, Christians, the atheists and every one who is not a Muslim.

Now you may say what about the right of the Palestinians. Yes their rights must be protected too. They must be able to return to their occupied lands and rebuild their homes. But let me ask you how would you deal with someone who has sworn to kill you and exterminate your kin and family? You seem to forget that the War in 1967 when the Israel occupied the Palestinian lands was started by the Arabs who vowed to drown the Jews into the sea. You seem to conveniently forget that it is the Palestinian terrorists who constantly bomb the busses, discos and markets in Israel killing tens of the Jews at a time. Perhaps it is not expedient to recall that it is the Hamas and the Palestinian extremists who oppose any peace talk with Israel.

The problem with us Muslim is that we are not fair. We lack justice. We do not understand the principle of Golden Rule. We are told that God has created the entire world to submit itself to us and pay us tribute for we are the best people. We arrogantly believe in this nonsense and we are unable to see the facts and our own flaws.

I hear Muslims shouting for the rights of the Muslims in Kashmir, Palestine or Chechnya but forget that all the minorities in Islamic countries are called Dhimi and their rights is non-existent. Tell me please where were you when the Taliban forced the Hindus to wear yellow badges or destroyed the statute of Buddha? Did you protest when the Muslims bombed the Parliament of India? Why you kept silent when you read about the murder of the Christians is Pakistan? What did you do when you heard that the Muslims massacred entire villages Christians in Algeria, Rwanda, Sudan or Timor? Today the Hindus in Bangladesh are being persecuted. Why don’t you say anything? The hands of the Muslims are dripping with blood. But we do not hear other Muslims protesting. Yet the same “Christian” West made war against another Christian nation, the Serbs, to free the Kosovars, a Muslim people. Would such thing ever happen in any Islamic country? Can you imagine that a Muslim nation support a war against another Muslim nation to defend a non-Muslim country?

You asked, “Are the Islamists not gaining strength because the secular alternatives failed in face of the "humanist" powers which have supported this religious state?”

No my friend, the Islamists are not gaining any strength. They are just becoming savages. They are showing forth the violence for which they have been raised. The Islamists are brainwashed zombies. They know only one thing and that is the language of violence. This is not making Islam any stronger, on the contrary many intellectuals born and raised as Muslims are seeing Islam for what it is and are leaving it in troops. Many of us are ashamed of what our brethren do. We do not buy the lies that the non-Muslims hate us. We do not believe that we are a superior people for our belief in Allah. We see the humanity as one extended family. We see Islam a cause of disunity and hate. And we are coming together, we are forming a mighty force to combat Islam and liberate our people and our loved ones from the claws of this fiend of hate.

You asked, “When you attack Islam, are you not damaging the temporal interests of Muslim people (whom you profess to love) who may be using Islam to rally round people in protecting those interests?”

Anyone who reads my writings as well as the writings of my friends in my site knows that we are not against Muslims. We have made it clear that Muslims and Islam are two different things. Muslims are the victims of Islam. Islam is a disease and Muslims are the patients. We want to eradicate the disease to save the patient. Once I saw a documentary about honor killings. Among the victims there was the story of a 16-year-old girl from Pakistan. She was burned by her 35-year-old husband. Her crime was meeting her cousin, the boy with whom she had grown up and played all her childhood. They were like brothers and sisters. But her Muslim husband did not think that way and thought that his meeting had dishonored him. To salvage his “honor” he burned her. She was filmed lying in bed in hospital, agonizing with pain. She was not crying, but moaning like a wounded animal. She stretched her hand toward the camera. Trying to say something, but no words came out except moaning. Yet I heard all she wanted to say. She looked into my eyes through the camera and stretched her hand to me and told me in a clear message, “do not remain silent, save us, do not let others go through this pain”. It is for her and for millions more Muslims women and men that I am writing.

You say that Muslims rally around Islam to protect their temporal Interest. I disagree. Islam is the very cause of our enslavement. We have to free ourselves from Islam first before we can protect any Interest. We do not even know what is good for us. We need science, knowledge, industries, cooperation with other nations, democracy, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, equality of gender. Islam has taken all these from us. Look at Islamic countries. See what has happened to us. Which Islamic country respects the human rights of its people? Where are Islamic scientists? It is not that there is something wrong with our brain. When we come to the west we excel in everything we do. But in Islamic countries we are like a seed sown in bad soil. We rot and never flourish.

Rallying around Islam is not protecting our temporal interest. With Islam we shall never see peace let alone prosperity. Islam is ruining our intellect. It is teaching us distorted values. It makes us hateful creatures. It converts us into zombies. Look at the Muslims in Islamic countries. Look at them when they pour into the streets shouting death to this and death to that. They are not people. They are mobsters. They act with hysteria. And yet they are our people. They are our brothers, cousins, second cousins, friends and relatives. I am fighting for them, for their freedom from the bondage of ignorance, bigotry and fanaticism. I am fighting for their temporal Interest, for their enlightenment, for their freedom. I want to see my people free. I want them prosper and to contribute positively to the world.


No one hates us. No one has closed any door towards us. The world is ready with its arms open, waiting to embrace us yet we are filled with hate and distrust. We hate the Jews and I receive emails from them asking me why do Muslims think Jews hate them when they don’t? We hate the West and secretly delight when our terrorists succeed killing thousands of them. But we forget that this very West that we hate has allowed us to live freely in their land protecting our rights and came to help us in Kosovo, Kuwait and Afghanistan.

You wrote, “you may be adding to support of persecution of people who happen to be Muslim, by people who ARE religious (Christian, Hindu).”

Have you just come from the Mars? What are you talking about? Who is persecuting Muslims? The Muslims in India have the same rights that the Hindus have. They are completely protected by law. They can participate in politics and even occupy the highest posts. The Muslims in all Western (or as you wish Christian) countries enjoy the same rights that anyone else does. In the West no one asks, what is your religion. This is a dirty question. Even in Philippine where the majority is Catholic, Muslims are not persecuted. Muslims are the perpetrators of all crimes. It is the Muslim youth that systematically rape Australian girls. It is the Muslim mob that riot against the police in England. It is the Muslims who bomb the discos in Israel. Muslims are responsible for bombing buildings, airplanes and sending out mails tainted with anthrax. Muslims are the ones who enslave people in Sudan and sell them. Muslims are the ones who have training camps to kill the non-Muslims. Muslims are killing the Hindus in Bangladesh. Where is that “persecution” of Muslims by Christians and Hindus?

If however you are asking a hypothetical question that someone may misinterpret my denouncing of Islam and victimize Muslims, I do not think that is plausible. Those who read my essays know that Muslims are not to be blamed. In fact I am helping them to see the difference between Islam and Muslims. Even if someone hated Muslims for what they do, after reading my articles s/he would know that Muslims are victims too. It is Islam that is to be blamed not Muslims. Once Islam is eradicated, these foes of today will become the friends of tomorrow and peace will reign among the children humankind.

My website does not contribute to any “additional death of a Palestinian child sitting in his home”. This I explained clearly. My site and the Faith Freedom International, the organization that I have the honor to belong to spread only the message of love. We come from Islam and Muslims are our own people. We would do nothing to hurt them. We are demolishing the wall of distrust that is built by the lies of Muhammad between the Muslims and the rest of the World and acting as a bridge between the Islamic world and the rest of humanity. Our call is a call of love. Our mission is to unite people not divide them. Often the Christians, the Jews and the Hindus see the fallacies of their own religions when they compare theirs with Islam and see the similarities after reading our works. Humanity does not need an excuse to have peace and be united, it need it to hate and to make war.

My site however may kindle the light of reason in the mind of a Muslim child who is harboring the thought of becoming a martyr by becoming another human bomb killing tens of people. There are no such Christian terrorists killing Muslims to go to Paradise. We don’t see Hindus abusing the rights of the Muslims in India. All the news is about Muslims terrorizing the non-Muslims, gunning them down, blowing up their busses, airplanes and buildings. There is no such risk of someone reading my messages of love and becoming a terrorist going around killing Muslims. But there is a hope that one potential Islamic terrorist be affected by what I write and instead of becoming a jihadi become a humanist and hopefully few lives be saved.

You concluded, “I agree that Muslims have to look to their own societies and doctrine to solve their problems. However, I cannot find any need to help the already powerful who wish to hurt Muslims simply because they are Muslims.”

I hope you give up this paranoia that was inseminated by Muhammad. Muhammad was not a healthy human being. He was sick, mentally and emotionally infirm. He was a narcissist and a schizophrenic. He thought all those who are not with him are against him. All Muslims think the same way. We are all following a mentally sick man. Muhammad in his quest for power needed enemies to dominate the mind of his foolhardy victims. Since then Muslims cannot live without an enemy. They need it to survive. Such enemy does not exist but in their own minds. Wipe out that hatred that has darkened your heart. Smile at those whom you call enemy and you will see they smile back. Love them and you will feel their love. No one hates us. We hate them. The problem is within us and the solution is within us too.



Kind Regards
Ali Sina


Dear Mr. Rea,

I apologize for not answering your email earlier. First it was lack of time and then problem with my computer.

I agree with your description that secularism is also to many “a religion”. But I believe one of us is misunderstanding this statement. When I accuse some secularists and rationalists of bigotry and religious mindedness it is because just like religionists they cannot accept anything that fall beyond the purview of science. For example there is ample evidence that telepathy is a human faculty. Psychic ability is also an enigma that cannot be rejected even though it cannot be defined by today’s science. But in my discussion with some rationalists I hear absurd and even ridiculous explanations of phenomena such as NDE (near death experience) and OBE (out of body experience) that is not much different from the jumbo mumbo one hears from religionists trying to explain for example the “miracle” of Mi’raj or the ascension of Jesus. Such scientists, in my view, are still religious people. They only have changed their religion. With the difference that instead of the belief in God, they believe in science and just like the religionists they are unwilling to question their sacred belief or admit the existence of realities that may not exist in their sacred book.

But you accuse me of being a religionist because of the passion with which I address your queries. I am afraid you are confusing being passionate with being dogmatic. Tell you the truth I get bored when I read essays that are too academic and bland. I like passionate writing and try to write also passionately. Passion is salt and peppers of an otherwise dull academic discussion.

I reject the charge of being “religious” or dogmatic. The foundation of my personal philosophy is doubt. If you read more of my articles you will see that I value doubt more than anything else. My motto is the saying of Buddha: “Doubt everything, find your own light”.

In your email you wrote, “Muslims today are victims as well as being perpetrators of many misdeeds.” But of course! This is precisely my thesis. But I see Muslims not necessarily the victims of other religions. I believe Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Muslims are the poorest nations of the world. They are the most uneducated people. They lack science, technology, philosophy, civility and even humanity. But this is not the fault of the “Great Satan” or the Zionists. They find themselves in such miserable state because of their belief in antiquated and primitive teachings of Islam. It is Islam that keeps them ignorant, unproductive and lazy. Islam inculcates in its brainwashed victims fatalism. Muslims do not think that they are masters of their own destiny and if they effort themselves they can overcome their poverty, dependence and ignorance. They are told everything is in the hand of Allah and only he decides the destinies of the humans. Of course when a whole nation adheres to such nonsense, they become lazy, initiatives are thwarted and poverty ensues. Instead of working Muslims waste their time praying, instead of relying on their own efforts, they supplicate the blessing of an imaginary god. The whole month of Ramadan is passed when Muslims ruin their health in a most crazy ritual of fasting poisoning their bodies and lying around lazily. They also waste their time memorizing Quran, a book that they do not understand and learning the Fiqh that teaches them the art of defecation, copulation and urination. Of course Muslims are victims. But they are victims of Islam. They are victims of their own ignorance. The whole purpose of my writing on the web is to free them from the claws of this barbaric cult and empower them through knowledge, and understanding. What are you doing to liberate them?

But you see Muslims as victims of other religions. I am afraid I have to disagree with you. Of course in many cases Muslims were victimized by people professing other religions such as the Kosovars in Yugoslavia or the Chechens in Russia. But these victimizations are not religiously motivated. I do not see any other religious group deciding to exterminate the Muslims because of their religion. You must not confuse the retaliatory hostile actions of people of other religions with the Jihadi spirit of Muslims. The Serbs were victimized by Muslims for 600 years. Even during the WWII the Muslims of Yugoslavia sided with Hitler and caused the death of many Serbs. The inhumane treatment of the Serbs against the Bosnians was due to an old grudge caused by Muslims. In Chechnya the Chechens are considered as separatists. They are not under attack because of their religion. Please do not interpret this as if I am in agreement that a nation be kept in a confederacy without their consent and with force, but the point is that unlike what Muslims claims there is no religious persecution in Chechnya nor in any other place in the world against Muslims simply because they are Muslims. On the other hand we see that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais and Ahmadis in Islamic countries are persecuted because of their faith.

No. Other faiths do not produce saintly human beings. If you read more of my writings you know I disagree with all religions and consider all of them useless and superfluous. But Islam is a distinct case. No other religion teaches so much hate as Islam does. No other religion encourages its followers to act with violence. Even the Old Testament that contains many brutalities attributed to Moses, Joshua and other prophets of Israel does not instruct the Jews to kill the non-Jews. Those barbarities of the Bible are considered to be historic incidents (although in reality they are just fables and Moses may have never existed) not instructions to kill as the verses of Quran are.

As for Zionism I am not an expert. However it is clear that no Muslim can be unbiased in passing judgment on Israeli Palestinian problem. You say that “Zionism, which used the Jewish faith, is thus fundamentally based on the principle of ethnic cleansing,” Please forgive me if I have to declare “passionately” that this statement of yours is utter nonsense. You perhaps do not know the meaning of ethnic cleansing or your faith in Islam has obfuscated your better judgment and cannot come to an unbiased opinion.

In my previous email I described ethnic cleansing as what Muhammad did to the Jews of Medina. (Please read this). The prophet that you follow attacked the Jewish settlements of Medina and though they did not fight back and surrendered, he massacred their men tool their women and children as slave and sold them. Read the story of the Jews and then tell me whether you still think this beast was a prophet of God. What Muhammad did to other religions in Arabia (Hijaz) was ethnic cleansing. What the Muslims are doing to the Christians, Buddhists, Hindus. Ahmadis and Bahais in all Islamic countries is ethnic cleansing, because you can see a systematic persecution of these minorities in all Islamic countries. These minorities are massacred, imprisoned and forced to exile. This is ethnic cleansing. The Jews are not persecuting the Palestinians. The Palestinians are free in Israel and their rights are protected. But of course you cannot expect trust from a people that you constantly terrorize. There is a lot of bad blood among the Jews and Palestinians. The hatred is mutual. But try to be fair in you judgment. How would you react if you were an Israeli constantly being harassed by the Palestinian suicide bombers? What would you do to a people who openly deny your right to exist?

You speak of Israel as if it actually belonged to the Palestinians from the dawn of time. Have you read the history? Israel belonged to Israelis for at least 4000 years. That is what we read in the Bible. Of course I do not think that whatever is in the Bible is true but we can at lease be certain that the Jews called Israel their home for thousands of years. Jerusalem and the West Bank that the Palestinians claim as their capital belonged to the Jews. Jerusalem was built by the Jews. It was destroyed by Nebuchadnazer and rebuilt by the Jews. In one occasion the king of Persia paid the Jews to go to Israel and rebuild their temple and pray to their God. This is reported in the book of Ezra.

What about Palestine? Well Palestine never existed as a country. Palestine is the name of a region. We never had a Palestinian state. The Palestinians of today are Arabs. Palestine before the 1967 was under the occupation of Jordan. No one complained at that time. Why so much fuss when the Jews have occupied it? The answer is simple. Muslims hate the Jews. The reason for this is because Muhammad told them to hate the Jews. Prior to Muhammad, the Jews and the Arabs were allies. They intermarried and traded with each other. The Jews of Hijaz (Arabia) were so arabanized that they spoke Arabic, had Arab names and even Arab genes. Muhammad is the founder of the religious animosity between the Arabs and the Jews that has lasted for 1400 years and is causing the death of innocent people even today. All this is documented in my article about the Jews of Arabia.

One of the claims of the Muslims on Jerusalem is that there is Majid ul Aqsa and this is a Muslim sacred place? Why should this mosque be sacred for Muslims? Muhammad said a lie that he visited this placed before his ascension to Heaven and his visit with Allah. I hope you are not that naïf to believe in these demagogical tales of Muhammad concocted to fool his foolhardy followers. Jerusalem is not a sacred place for Muslims. There is nothing Islamic there to make it “sacred” for you guys.

Despite the fact that I explained Israel is not created to safeguard the Jewish faith but the Jews as a nation, you keep repeating, “Zionism uses the Jewish faith”. Do you really think Albert Einstein believed in Yahweh, or had any faith in Judaism? This is absurd. Einstein was an atheist. But do you deny the fact that he was a Jew? In Israel today there are many people, in fact a great percentage of them, who do not believe in God. Israel is not a country formed around a religion. Unlike most Islamic countries, Israel has a secular government. Israel belonged to Israelis since the dawn of history. They were exiled and were taken in Diaspora, often persecuted by maniacs such as Hitler, Muhammad and his followers and now they are back reclaiming their own ancestral land. Is there anything wrong in that? If you said yes it is because you are biased. Your hatred has clouded your judgment. This is something that you have to resolve for yourself.

As to your claim that Golda Meir, Shamir, had warrants for arrest on terrorism and Menachem Begin was responsible for the massacre of 300+ Arabs I have not read these charged in anywhere outside Islamic media. With this I do not want to deny these charges but I am asking to provide the proof. Can you show my a document issued by UN for example that corroborate this claim? Did any other newspaper that was not run by Arabs and Muslims laid such charges? Before I accept those charges I would like to read the facts and not just innuendos and calumnies written by Muslims. What you say could be true but I need facts. Can you provide?

On the other hand I personally remember that Yaser Arafat was leading a terrorist campaign against the people of Israel and he was revolutionary. Now he is apparently reformed and presents himself like a respectable statesman. Of course he still wears his fatigue, a reminiscent of those good old days when he used to carry guns.

You spoke of the Hindu brutalities against the Muslims. I know of a very fascistic Hindu hate group called Hindu Unity. These thugs are no better than Muslim terrorists. In fact they are the copycats of each other and vie in violence and barbarity. My point is that why instead of stopping violence and condemning it you find justification for committing more violence when the other group act violently. The Hindu Unity’s raison d’etre is to counter Islamic expansionism. If Islam cease to be a thread to India I doubt the Hindu Unity would continue to exist.

You asked “What "high" positions do Muslims hold in India - how many court judges, IAS/IFS grade civil servants, military officers, businessmen ?”

Let me answer you this with a rhetoric question. What high positions Muslims hold in any country? Muslims do not hold any position anywhere because Muslims are generally lack proper education, they are not skilled and they are unproductive. (who would want to hire a Muslim when they have to stop working 5 times a day to perform their prayer?). Show me one Muslim who has excelled in science or has won the Noble Prize. Please don’t mention those Middle Easterners who have distinguished themselves in every field of life when they came to the West and just happen to carry their “Islamic” name. Not everyone who has an Arab name is a Muslim.

We are talking about the laws of the land. Is India a Hindu republic or is it a secular state? Are the laws of India inspired from Bagavad Gita or are they laic? You see, Iran is no more called Iran. It is called “Islamic” republic of Iran. And the laws of the state are Islamic. The minorities do not count. This is so in all Islamic countries. Is this the case also in India?

You claimed “Islam developed much of modern science: algebra, calculus, anatomy, chemistry” Oh dear! Can you please show me which part of Quran or Hadith is scientific or speak about algebra, calculus, anatomy or chemistry? Those great luminaries, mostly Persians, who were the authors of great achievement in these sciences were not believers in Islam. They were heretics. They ridiculed Islam and the foolish belief of the masses of Muslims. To claim that Zakaria Razi, Bu Ali Sina, Omar Khyyam, Ibn Rushd and other great mind that were born in Islamic countries were contribution of Islam to the world is just as ridiculous as if Christians took credit for the generous of Galileo, Darwin, or Steven Hawking. Please read this article about the Freethinkers of Islam before repeating the absurd claim of the Muslims that Islam contributed to modern science. The contribution of Islam to the world is Quran and that book is the most stupid piece of nonsense one can find.

You also made a bizarre statement that I just don’t know what to say. You wrote “Plato, Aristotle, Socrates would be lost to the world if the Muslims had not preserved them.”

Are you really serious? First of all it was not Islam that “preserved” the works of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle. If anything the works of these philosophers were studied by Middle Eastern thinkers who happened to have Islamic names. Al Ghazali who was a true Muslim believer did not want to have anything to do with these philosophers. As a matter of fact philosophy is despised in Islam.

At the end, speaking of the Islamic terrorism against USA you blamed the West for “driving Muslims to these fundamentalist verities”. I agree that in many cases the policies of USA have been shortsighted. America is a country after her own interests and often in the pursuit of this interest the legitimate interests of other nations are neglected. However what is unconscionable is that since the Sep 11 all Muslims try to justify the criminal deeds of the Islamists in murdering thousands of absolutely innocent people by blaming it on America. I received many emails from Muslims who say, “yes what happened in Sep 11 was wrong BUT what is happening to Palestinians is also wrong”. I am sorry to see that your attitude toward the victims of NY and Pentagon is not much different from the attitude of other Islamists. The fact that America has been callous towards the needs of the people in third world countries and has often supported brutal dictators that were willing to sign lucrative contracts with USA is a matter that needs to be discussed and resolved in its own place. But the hatred of Islamists towards everyone who is not a Muslim is something different. This hate has nothing to do with USA and her failed policies. This hatred is obvious from the teachings of Quran and will exist as long as there are people who follow that book and consider it to be a divine book.

Anyway this response has become too long and although I have more things to say, I thing it is better to end it here.

Regards


Ali Sina
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/jim_rea.htm

[Anglojew]

I think freedom is worth more than aid money no matter how much it is.

I agree but maybe we could ask the Kurds since they don't have freedom or money.

[Annihilus]

Raine the copy paste queen, you really think anybody is going to read that wall of text?

[Anatolian Eagle]

It appears to be argumentum ad hominem is your primary source during an arguement. Do you really think it helps your arguement, to open provocative threads about whole group because you're disturbed by someone else's opinion in another thread on different subject or to attack his identity? Sometimes I think you're no different than Baluarte. I have no problem with Israel's existence and we're native to Anatolia so we're in Anatolia forever within our current borders, deal with it. Mind you Turkey was the first Muslim-majority country to recognize Israel.

[Dengizik]

Just try it joos. Turks are in Anatolia for 1000 years.

[Annihilus]

I agree but maybe we could ask the Kurds since they don't have freedom or money.

They can go anywhere they want, work anywhere they want, make as money as they want. Everything a Turk can do a Kurd can do in Turkey. Can you say the same about Palestinians? Believe me there are enough rich Kurds in Turkey. They are very big in the tourism industry for example.

[Annihilus]

Just try it joos. Turks are in Anatolia for 1000 years.

I think Turks are genetically for the largest part from the same people that first settled anatolia.

[Prince Carlo]

A better question would be: should all muslims go to Africa?

[Szegedist]

Only if Indo-Europeans go back to their homeland·

[Roy]

Turks are native to Anatolia, this question doesn't make sense.

[riverman]

Just try it joos. Turks are in Anatolia for 1000 years.

That's probably an exaggeration, other peoples were also in Anatolia.

[glass]

turks, arabs, chechens, jews, albanians and estonians shoud be sent to Madagascar imo

[riverman]

Only if Indo-Europeans go back to their homeland·


Lol whaaa? Theres nothing saying that Europe isn't the homeland of many Europeans.

[wvwvw]

Just try it joos. Turks are in Anatolia for 1000 years.

Yeah but Greeks were in Anatolia for 3000 years :p

[wvwvw]

A better question would be: should all muslims go to Africa?

An even better question is: Does Africa wants them? (ask the recently massacred Christians in Nigeria, Sudan and elsewhere)

[Szegedist]

A difference is, Turkey was created by Turks, while Israel by the United Nations and various lobbies ( Balfour Declaration, etc)

[Prince Carlo]

Only if Indo-Europeans go back to their homeland·

Lithuanians already live in Lithuania.


An even better question is: Does Africa wants them? (ask the recently massacred Christians in Nigeria, Sudan and elsewhere)

Do we want them?

[Anglojew]

A difference is, Turkey was created by Turks, while Israel by the United Nations and various lobbies ( Balfour Declaration, etc)

You're right. Israel has a lot more legitimacy in the world community.

http://rapidis.blogactiv.eu/files/2012/12/kurdish-population-map.jpg

[Lemon Kush]

turks, arabs, chechens, jews, albanians and estonians shoud be sent to Madagascar imo

When they're there they should also be deterred in labor camps and forced to work 15 hours a day. Every penny they make should be sent directly to the Russian economy!

[ariel]

I know you made this thread because of me. First I never said Israel should stop to exists and/or that Jews leave. I was arguing about your genetics and how that came to be through history. I think comparing Palestinians (biblical Jews) to Israeli's (modern Jews) is a legit way to understand more about this.

palestinians are not biblical jews but bedouins from yemen and saudi arabia

[CrystalMaiden]

I love these butthurt J00 threads, they remind me why I hate your kind :o

[Anglojew]

I love these butthurt J00 threads, they remind me why I hate your kind :o

Muslims are powered by hatred. You suffer from chronic jihad syndrome.

[CrystalMaiden]

Muslims are powered by hatred. You suffer from chronic jihad syndrome.

If a Jew wasn't attempting and failing to insulting me, I would be a disappointment to my parents :o

[Anglojew]

If a Jew wasn't attempting and failing to insulting me, I would be a disappointment to my parents :o

I'm sure your hatred makes your parents proud. Islam=hate.

[CrystalMaiden]

I'm sure your hatred makes your parents proud. Islam=hate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F0Xx-oQKsU

[Anglojew]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Rs0OKPZEAPk/TMvvdw0q7JI/AAAAAAAACU8/e6k5VmRl5qo/s400/jihadkids16vg.jpg

[CrystalMaiden]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Rs0OKPZEAPk/TMvvdw0q7JI/AAAAAAAACU8/e6k5VmRl5qo/s400/jihadkids16vg.jpg

Good little Mujahis :o

[Anglojew]

Good little Mujahis :o

At least you admit you belong to a militant death cult.

[ChocolateFace]

http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Caucasian-Albania-in-Context-Map.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Failte_Scottish.jpg

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1599/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1599R-18077.jpg

[CrystalMaiden]

At least you admit you belong to a militant death cult.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F0Xx-oQKsU

[Hayalet]

Anatolia was first described as a Turkish national homeland by Latin Europeans. At that time, Turks used to refer to it as the land of the Romans. Turks always had an extensive, but more importantly, continuous and predominant history in Turkey ever since.

By contrast, it seems unclear if Jews are a proper nation to have their own country or a mere ethnoreligious group spread over vast distances. For instance, the chief Israeli propagandist in this community is an half-Englishman from Australia who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

[riverman]

Anatolia was first described as a Turkish national homeland by Latin Europeans. At that time, Turks used to refer to it as the land of the Romans. Turks always had an extensive, but more importantly, continuous and predominant history in Turkey ever since.

By contrast, it seems unclear if Jews are a proper nation to have their own country or a mere ethnoreligious group spread over vast distances. For instance, the chief Israeli propagandist in this community is an half-Englishman from Australia who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

Israel strongk

[Anglojew]

Anatolia was first described as a Turkish national homeland by Latin Europeans. At that time, Turks used to refer to it as the land of the Romans. Turks always had an extensive, but more importantly, continuous and predominant history in Turkey ever since.

By contrast, it seems unclear if Jews are a proper nation to have their own country or a mere ethnoreligious group spread over vast distances. For instance, the chief Israeli propagandist in this community is an half-Englishman from Australia who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

So you agree with me that Turkey is Byzantium. I'm glad.

[Odin]

Neither.

[Anglojew]

Anatolia was first described as a Turkish national homeland by Latin Europeans. At that time, Turks used to refer to it as the land of the Romans. Turks always had an extensive, but more importantly, continuous and predominant history in Turkey ever since.

By contrast, it seems unclear if Jews are a proper nation to have their own country or a mere ethnoreligious group spread over vast distances. For instance, the chief Israeli propagandist in this community is an half-Englishman from Australia who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

You forgot part-Turk