Lithuania’s president warns of Russia’s rising influence in east

[Baluarte]

As she takes the helm of the EU’s rotating presidency, Lithuania’s president has a message for her fellow European leaders: beware the Russian bear.

“There is now a decisive time where Russia is trying to persuade the eastern partners of the EU to go closer towards a customs union,” Dalia Grybauskaite said in an interview with the Financial Times. “Because of economic difficulties, Europe is very busy internally . . . This makes it very convenient for some third countries to spread their influence in the east.”

Lithuania is not the first former communist country to take over the EU presidency. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovenia have held the job, which has responsibility for managing Brussels’ Byzantine legislative process.
But the Baltic state of 3m is the first former Soviet republic to take on the highly symbolic role, which gives Vilnius an outsized platform to set Europe’s agenda for the next six months.

Ms Grybauskaite, a Brussels veteran who spent five years as the EU’s budget commissioner, insisted she would not use the EU presidency as a platform to harden European policy towards the Kremlin of President Vladimir Putin.

At the same time, she has made a November summit in Vilnius between the EU and six former Soviet republics – Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan – a centrepiece of her country’s presidency and has already started lobbying her fellow leaders to embrace these “eastern partners”, even though some are accused of slipping towards authoritarianism.

The most awkward debate is likely to be over Ukraine. For nearly two years, the text of a sweeping bilateral agreement – part free-trade deal, part political harmonisation pact – has been awaiting EU signatures.

But a France-led group in western Europe, including Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands, has held up the deal, largely because of the treatment of the opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, jailed in 2011 on corruption charges in a case the European Court of Human Rights recently labelled illegal and politically motivated.

Ms Grybauskaite said she believed the hold-up is a mistake and has begun lobbying her counterparts to sign the pact in Vilnius and to push off fights over the rule of law to the ratification process.

“The Tymoshenko case has become a symbol of the human rights situation in Ukraine, the quality of legal reforms, the quality of democracy, selective justice – all of these things are concentrated now in one name,” she said. “Europe needs strategically to make a decision not to be jeopardised by one or two people while these people became symbolic.”

Vilnius is walking a fine line in pushing for a Ukrainian deal by November. Although the EU presidency has diminished in importance since the signing of the 2010 Lisbon treaty, it still plays a vital role in making the EU’s legislative machinery work.

As a result, many Brussels insiders bristle at attempts by national politicians to use the presidency pulpit to advance their own policy agendas. Enda Kenny, the prime minister of Ireland, the outgoing holder of the EU presidency, raised hackles early in his tenure by using the presidency megaphone to advocate for debt relief from bailout lenders.
“It would be a conflict of interest to push only Lithuanian issues,” Ms Grybauskaite acknowledged.

Still, Vilnius has been a constant and energetic thorn in Russia’s side. More than any other EU member, it prodded the European Commission into launching an anti-monopoly case against Gazprom last year amid allegations the Russian gas company was bullying central and eastern European governments into unfair contracts.

There is little sign Ms Grybauskaite will curtail her campaign because of sensitivities in Brussels. Indeed, she warns there are signs the Kremlin may be using Lithuania’s presidency to ramp up its campaign, saying there has been a spike in cyberattacks in Lithuania and signs minority groups are being “artificially activated” by outside forces.
“I of course am not able to say who exactly is making trouble, but trouble is occurring,” she said.

A spokesman for the Russian mission to the EU declined to comment.

Thus far, her bluntness has not been a liability in Brussels. Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, singled her out for praise during fraught EU budget negotiations, sparking speculation she could be in line for a top EU job when her term ends next year.

“I’m not even planning my time any more,” she said of her political plans. “I will be where it is necessary, and mainly where it is necessary is with the Lithuanian people.”

[Baluarte]

Lithuania looks for alternatives to counter Russia's high gas price

Lithuanian Energy Minister Jaroslaw Neverovič has warned his Russian counterparts that selling gas to the Baltic country at an excessive price is not sustainable, the minister told EurActiv.

Neverovič, a diplomat and banker before taking his ministerial post, said the country paid $500 per thousand cubic metres (tcm) of Russian gas, while Germany paid only $400.

The price Lithuania pays to Gazprom was “one of the highest, if not the highest in the EU,” he said.

Liquefied natural gas is available at lower prices and the planned Lithuanian LNG terminal, to be up and running by the end of 2014, was a “game changer” for the country’s relations with Russian gas exporter Gazprom, Neverovič said.

Shale gas has allowed the United States to stop importing gas and is converting some of its LNG terminals from import to export use, undermining Gazprom's position on the European market.

Shale gas is sold at spot prices, while Gazprom’s prices remain tied to the cost of oil and are negotiated in long-term contracts. In contrast, Norway, the other major European gas exporter, left this system of indexation and sells its gas at spot prices. As a consequence, in 2012 Norway for the first time outpaced Russia the EU’s main gas supplier.

"I tell Russians the high gas price is not good for them," Neverovič said, saying the policy motivates foreign customers to look for alternatives to Gazprom.

At present, Lithuania is nearly totally dependent on Russian gas. Neverovič said that 20 to 25% of his country’s gas needs will come from the national LNG terminal. Another larger LNG terminal is to be built for the needs of Lithuania and its Balkan neighbours, Latvia and Estonia.

But Neverovič said the trilateral decision-making was slow and the time horizon for the completion of the regional LNG project was “2020 at best”, his country decided to proceed with a national option.

The Lithuanian minister also mentioned other projects, such a gas interconnector with Poland, improving links between the Baltic states, strengthening the gas storage capacity in Latvia and building a gas interconnector between Estonia and Finland.

The minister – whose country holds the EU’s rotating presidency through the end of 2013 - also said that Lithuania was working on unbundling its gas system under the EU’s Third Energy Package.

Unbundling would be completed by the end of next year, he said, when Lithuania would have an independent transmission system operator in gas, the same as it is already the case in the electricity sector.

On shale gas, the minister said that Lithuania was of the view that EU member countries were free to develop this resource if they wish so, in conformity with environment legislation. The government had no direct plans to do so but it was useful to know the country’s shale gas potential, he said.

'Energy island'

In the electricity sector, Neverovič mentioned ongoing projects to connect the electricity systems of Lithuania and Sweden, the Nordbalt project, a planned submarine power cable between Klaipėda in Lithuania and Nybro in Sweden, as well as a 160-km 400 kV alternating current with Poland.

Lithuania’s electricity grid is still interconnected with the old Soviet system and is referred to as an "energy island' inside the EU. The country plans to synchronise the transmission network with that of the Union’s ENTSO-E system by 2016.

Neverovič said his country was 60% dependent on electricity imports from other countries, the biggest part coming from the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, and from Belarus.

The nuclear project, he said, was in a “state of reflection”. A majority of participants in a non-binding referendum held in October 2012 rejected the construction of a new nuclear power plant.

The minister said, however, that the government saw “room for nuclear” in the country’s energy mix.

Asked if the new government, in which a pro-Russian party is represented, has made any changes in its energy policy with respect to the former centre-right cabinet, known for its staunch anti-Russian positions, he said:

“I wouldn’t say that our coalition government or one of the parties is more, or less, pro-Russian. [But] we can see a more constructive approach from our partners’ side, and I think that’s what we need.”

[Thelema]

Do we have influence in the East?

[glass]

At present, Lithuania is nearly totally dependent on Russian gas. Neverovič said that 20 to 25% of his country’s gas needs will come from the national LNG terminal. Another larger LNG terminal is to be built for the needs of Lithuania and its Balkan neighbours, Latvia and Estonia.
;)

[Windischer]

who the hell is author of these articles?

[sevruk]

Lithuania is fail

[Baluarte]

EurActiv

[Aunt Hilda]

EurActiv


what's next? articles from the Onion? (http://whitsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Troll_Face.png)

[Baluarte]

what's next? articles from the Onion? (http://whitsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Troll_Face.png)

Delete my thread if it's best then.

[Aunt Hilda]

Delete my thread if it's best then.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/36859358.jpg

[riverman]

Delete my thread if it's best then.

Why? If you're going to copy-paste at least leave the articles up, ....:eek:

[Thelema]

...

[Temujin]

Lithuania is fail

It’s not for the first time sneaky Lithuanians are saying one thing, while doing opposite. They have been critised for not holding to their words a few times by their political allies. It’s a small country playing for both sides in its best interests.

The relations between Lithuania and Russia are better than between two other Baltic states and Russia I'd say. Why Gasprom is selling gas to Lithuania at the highest prices in Europe is beyond me. It seems as if Lithuania has no other options unlike its Baltic neighbours.

[glass]

The relations between Lithuania and Russia are better than between two other Baltic states and Russia I'd say. Why Gasprom is selling gas to Lithuania at the highest prices in Europe is beyond me. It seems as if Lithuania has no other options unlike its Baltic neighbours.
that is because lithuanians did not sell their Mažeikiai oil refinery to Lukoil some years ago, also they want to build nuclear power plant without Russia...

[Thelema]

that is because lithuanians did not sell their Mažeikiai oil refinery to Lukoil some years ago, also they want to build nuclear power plant without Russia...

> nuclear power plant
> lithuania
> build

[glass]

> nuclear power plant
> lithuania
> build
obviously it wont be actual lithuanians, they are not able to do it :picard1: but some western company

[sevruk]

that is because lithuanians did not sell their Mažeikiai oil refinery to Lukoil some years ago, also they want to build nuclear power plant without Russia...

Well, they stopped their old Soviet nuclear power plant not for Russians build a new nuclear power plants.
But Belarus and Russia are already building their nuclear power plants, while Lithuania not.

[Hercus Monte]

Well, they stopped their old Soviet nuclear power plant not for Russians build a new nuclear power plants.
But Belarus and Russia are already building their nuclear power plants, while Lithuania not.
wasn't the nuclear power plant project stopped in Königsberg?

[Loki]

Typical Baltic paranoia.

[sevruk]

wasn't the nuclear power plant project stopped in Königsberg?

only for updated project - increase power;)

[Thelema]

Lithuanians aren't bad guys tho

[Loki]

Lithuanians aren't bad guys tho

Yep. It's not like they're Estonians or something :laugh:

[Hercus Monte]

only for updated project - increase power;)
ahh, ok. I think I read in the news that u stopped the project because you couldn't find enough buyers, guess I was wrong.

[Thelema]

Yep. It's not like they're Estonians or something :laugh:
http://theapricity.com/wiki/index.php?title=Karl :D

[sevruk]

ahh, ok. I think I read in the news that u stopped the project because you couldn't find enough buyers, guess I was wrong.

The latest information (Russian)

http://publicatom.ru/blog/baltaes/5768.html#cut

[glass]

The Japanese company was supposed to invest in it as well as our country. Those are still big money for our country.
Of course, we don't have our own technologies and company who could build.

Russians are only building those nuclear powers in Konigsberg and Belarus right next to Lithuania because they don't want Lithuania to be energetically independent which translates into lesser political dependency.
lithuanians need plant not only for themselves but for export too, admit it
russians want the same, so this problem is just business nothing else.
If you wanted to become selfsuffient, you would built plant and used it for domestic needs, Russia can not stop activity inside lithuanian borders.

Anyway you do not see whole picture. You were too young during oil refinery privatisation i assume, so do not remember that very critical event. Lithuanian governemnt hold auction, russian company Lukoil offered highest price for refinery, but Lithuania decided to sell it to polish company for lesser price. Putin took it as personal offense. In Russia balts are usualy viewed as silly kids with identity crisis, so when they discuss how amount of soviet/russian film on baltic TV comparable with their historical choice to be part of west, we usualy have a good laugh, nothing more. But that decision was too much even for immature lithuanian government. Pipeline from Russia that led to oil refinery "accidently" got broken and still under repairment if i am correct. Putin even wanted to cut Lithuania from all russian resources, but threat to upset EU stopped him from this. Anyhow since then Russia primary goal is punish lithuanians and make them regret it.

You can look at Finland. They have 2 nuclear plants, one western and one soviet/russian. Russia is going to build them third plant, Russia will hold 33% share of this plant and Finland 67%. So finns will control plant, share construction cost with Russia, improve relations with Russia. There is no single shortcoming in such deal, but lithuanians think different or may be american ambassador in Lithuania thinks different.:picard1:

[Hercus Monte]

Russians are only building those nuclear powers in Konigsberg and Belarus right next to Lithuania because they don't want Lithuania to be energetically independent which translates into lesser political dependency.

com on, we all know that's bull. of course It's better for Russia if we're completely dependent on them.
However, Konigsberg is completely isolated, and I'm fairly certain they need electricity.
Don't know about Belarus. The close proximity to our borders is a little concerning, but it seems to follow the safety guidelines.

[Temujin]

Lithuanian governemnt hold auction, russian company Lukoil offered highest price for refinery, but Lithuania decided to sell it to polish company for lesser price. Putin took it as personal offense. In Russia balts are usualy viewed as silly kids with identity crisis, so when they discuss how amount of soviet/russian film on baltic TV comparable with their historical choice to be part of west, we usualy have a good laugh, nothing more. But that decision was too much even for immature lithuanian government. Pipeline from Russia that led to oil refinery "accidently" got broken and still under repairment if i am correct. Putin even wanted to cut Lithuania from all russian resources, but threat to upset EU stopped him from this. Anyhow since then Russia primary goal is punish lithuanians and make them regret it.

Selling the refinery to Poland wasn't their own decision. 'Energy and economyl independence' was a political decision orchestrated in the West. The governments of former soviet block countries were doing anything they were asked leading to EU entrance in 2004. Poland and Czech Republic didn’t sell their refineries to Lukoil despite it was offering the best bids on the market. So, Lithuania wasn't alone.

There is political and economical bullying coming towards small nations from either side occasionally spilled in the press. Two years ago Lithuania released financial information of 'a Belarusian activist' who held bank accounts in Lithuania. There was so much noise coming towards Lithuanian government as if they surrended top secrets of Pentagon. It's a small country facing difficult decisions.


Bloomberg, 21/01/2003

It was hailed as a historic breakthrough, a signal that Russia was an investor to be courted, not an enemy to be feared. In April, Russian oil major Lukoil (LUKOY) teamed up with London-based partner Rotch Energy to bid $1 billion for Poland's state-owned Refinery Gdansk, whose network of 300 gasoline stations serves 17% of the Polish market. The refinery would run on Russian oil, and as a sweetener, Lukoil promised that Gdansk's ailing shipyards could build and repair its tankers. In July, the Polish government, starved for ways to scare up jobs, signaled its imminent assent. "We are going to make a deal with Russia," Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller declared in an interview on Polish Radio.

Six months later, there's still no deal to celebrate. The refinery remains unsold, and Lukoil's chances of success are dimming fast. Nationalistic elements of the press have fanned fears among Warsaw's political elite that Poland was jeopardizing its energy security through such a sale. A backpedaling Polish government is now considering an alternative bid. "We are worried about the leverage the Russians could get," says former Polish Defense Minister Janusz Onyszkiewicz, now a consultant at the Konrad Adenauer Foundation, a German think tank. "We still have a deficit of trust between Russia and Poland," he adds.

Central and Eastern Europe should be natural markets for Russia's biggest companies, especially its resurgent oil producers. But Russian oil is having mixed success in the region. Memories of Soviet domination are not the only reason. Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic are gearing up for entrance into the European Union and looking westward for expanded investment ties.

Source: http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2003-01-12/a-slippery-patch-for-russian-oil

[Minde]

i get cheep elektricity with new power plant

[Hercus Monte]

Rusija labai nenori, kad Lietuva sumažintų energetinę neprikausomybę nuo jų, todėl imasi visokiausių veiksmų. ,

nenori, bet jiems tai tikrai ne prioritetas. Visokiausių veiksmų nereikia, Rusija viską daro sveiko proto ribose.
mums užtenka ir to įgyto paranojos jausmo, kad Rusija pastoviai vien apie mus galvoja, ir mes visus darbus metam pašonei ir pradedam rėkti ant Rusijos. Ji vien tik savo interesus gina.
ir mus lengvai valdo.


Nebent manai, kad Rusija nori gero Lietuvai. Nu tikrai taip nėra.

Rusijai, mūsų energetikos priklausomybė nuo jų, yra naudinga, bet tai jiems tikrai ne prioritetas. Jie turi ir didesnių problemų. putinas mus biški pakankina, pasirodo prieš Rusijos visuomenę koks jis stiprus ir galingas. (visi šitie konfliktai ne dėl mūsų, o kad nukreiptų Rusijos visuomenės dėmesį nuo realių problemų)

[bella1407]

typical baltic paranoia... boring :bored:
"Grybauskaite"- nice surname :D
http://allgrib.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/borovik.jpg

[bella1407]

It is paranoia to repeat paranoia everytime something negative is said about Russia in Baltics.

LOL:D. I don't care about Lithuania and what their pres. think about us. Calm down

[bella1407]

Then why are you commenting at all?

Because its about Russia. I will do what I want to do.Forgot to ask you.

[glass]

It is paranoia to repeat paranoia everytime something negative is said about Russia in Baltics.

P.S. Loki, I see you are using the same tactics as you did with Balkanites. Since your main goal is to attract more people to this forum to participate in your petty shit storms. I'm not interested in them. I don' have time for that crap.
well it is forum after all, people suposed to discuss things here? otherwise why would you or somebody else participate forum activity?

kamane, any answear to my post (#27) adressed to you?

[Hercus Monte]

Aš nesakau, kad Rusija vien tik apie mus galvoja, kad tai pagrindinis Rusijos rūpestis. O kodėl tu taip manai?

tu nepastebėjai kad tokie pasisakymai apie Rusiją atsiranda tik kai mes kažką kitką turėtume daryti? mūsų vyriausybė jau seniai turėjo suformuoti poziciją dėl atominės elektrinės. Bet bijo pakenkti savo reitingams...
Ką daryt, ką daryt? Žinoma, nukreipti visuomenės dėmesį ir apie Rusiją kalbėti.


Atominė elektrinė Lietuvai finansiškai yra žiauriai brangu, bet kokiai Rusijai...
Investicijos ateičiai niekada nebus pigios mums, mes maža šalis.



Kad Rusija siekia išlaikyti Lietuvą savo įtakos sferoje yra faktas. Straipsny aiškiai parašyta, kad elektrinės projektas Konigsberge atsirado taip staiga kaip ištrauktas iš skrybėlės triušis ir kad elektrinės gaminama elektra turėjo būti tiekiama Lietuvai.

Tai niekam nėra naujiena, visi politikos apžvalgininkai jau senei sakė kad iš tos elektrinės Karaliaučiuje nieko nebus, bet mes vistiek į spąstus bėgom.



Kas dar dėl paranojos. Tai netgi tokia tokia maža šalis kaip Lietuva susilaukia nepageidaujamo dėmesio iš Rusijos ir tai yra faktas.


O kada tas dėmėsis iš Rusijos pageidaujamas? :D


Kad tokia pakankamai didelė šalis kaip Rusija gali sau tai leisti nieko nuostabaus. Ypač, kai ji dar neatsikratė imperinio mąstymo (prisimink Rusijos požiūrį į okupaciją):

..... nežinau ką pridurti, tu manai kad mums naudinga ant jos pastoviai rėkti? (lojantis šuo nekanda, prisimink šį posakį, nes jis labai gerai atspindi mūsų ryšius su Rusija)
Geriau butu komunistus pravalyti iš valdžios. Ar turiu priminti kad mes vieninteliai iš Baltijos šalių to nedarėme ir neturime nė vieno nuteisto kagiebisto?

[Hercus Monte]

Rėkti? Aš turiu omeny blaivų požiūrį į Rusiją. Kai kas tam tikrus pro-rusiškus elementus žiniasklaidoje, politikoje etc.

mes blaivaus požiūrio į Rusija neturime. (pažiūrėk į Suomiją, jie turi blaivų požiūrį į Rusiją)



Prisimink, kad buvo tokių, kurie balsavo ųž Uspakichą (nors ir tie daugiausia neišsilavinę kaimų gyventojai pagal statistiką). Ši tema "Rusijos grėsmė" yra išsisėmus daliai Lietuvių, bet nesvarbu kiek kalbama apie tai, dėl to ji nesumažėja. Sutinku, kad reikėjo ir reiktų imtis efektyvių veiksmų. Visokie išverstakūniai Brazauskiai ir Uspaskichai neturėjo būti Lietuvos valdžioje.


Uspakicho problema ne pro-Rusiškos jėgos, bet oligarchija. Uspakichas tas tikrasis oligarchas ir tai yra blogai, ne jo tautybė.

[Hercus Monte]

Nu tu ir juokingas.
sorry :D man ši tema labai atsibodusi


Jis savo savo veiksmais įrodė, kad jam pirmoj vietoj nėra Lietuva, ką jis ir įrodė savo veiksmais. Pats faktas, kad jis yra rusas čia nieko (nors aišku tai, kad į Lietuvą atsibeldė tik 1985 galbūt kažką ir pasako apie jo patriotiškumą).
nemanau kad jis labai skiriasi nuo visų mūsų politikų :D

[Hercus Monte]

Kadangi tau ši tema atsibodus, gali neatsakyti, nes vargu, ar pats besupranti ką rašinėji.
Atsakysiu...

Aš tavęs nepažįstu, bet žmonės kurie taip atsiliepia, kai kalba užeina apie Uspaskich ir darbo partiją, nėra ypatingai protingi. Nėra visi politikai tokie pat (nors, žinoma, kiekviena partija turi brūdo, kitos mažiau, kitos daugiau. DP lyderis kaip žinia ypatingai įsivėlęs), nei reikia jo teisinti. Taip sakydamas tu parodai, kad tau vis vien vienodai...

visi mūsų politikai yra korumpuoti, Uspaskichas išsiskiria tik savo akiplėšiškumu.

Aš tavęs nepažįstu, bet žmonės kurie taip atsiliepia, kai kalba užeina apie Uspaskich ir darbo partiją, nėra ypatingai protingi.
? o ką aš apie darbo partiją tokio įspūdingo pasakiau? tu nemanai kad Uspaskichas yra korumpuotas? ts ts.

[Pure ja]

At present, Lithuania is nearly totally dependent on Russian gas. Neverovič said that 20 to 25% of his country’s gas needs will come from the national LNG terminal. Another larger LNG terminal is to be built for the needs of Lithuania and its Balkan neighbours, Latvia and Estonia.


There would be much less confusion between the Balkan and the Baltic, if the three Baltic states would be grouped together as Aesti - it would have the further benefit of not mistaking the three Baltic states with the Baltic Sea countries.

;)

[Pure ja]

The relations between Lithuania and Russia are better than between two other Baltic states and Russia I'd say. Why Gasprom is selling gas to Lithuania at the highest prices in Europe is beyond me. It seems as if Lithuania has no other options unlike its Baltic neighbours.

Gazprom is pricing gas in Estonia based on Estonian oil shale price and oil from local oil shale. Still way above the European market price, including what Gazprom asks from Germany and other central European countries.

[Pure ja]

Typical Baltic paranoia...

...has never been wrong, yet.

[Pure ja]

Yep. It's not like they're Estonians or something :laugh:

I take that as a compliment ;)

[Pure ja]

Anyway you do not see whole picture. You were too young during oil refinery privatisation i assume, so do not remember that very critical event. Lithuanian governemnt hold auction, russian company Lukoil offered highest price for refinery, but Lithuania decided to sell it to polish company for lesser price. Putin took it as personal offense. In Russia balts are usualy viewed as silly kids with identity crisis, so when they discuss how amount of soviet/russian film on baltic TV comparable with their historical choice to be part of west, we usualy have a good laugh, nothing more. But that decision was too much even for immature lithuanian government. Pipeline from Russia that led to oil refinery "accidently" got broken and still under repairment if i am correct. Putin even wanted to cut Lithuania from all russian resources, but threat to upset EU stopped him from this. Anyhow since then Russia primary goal is punish lithuanians and make them regret it.


And you call natives of the Baltics as silly kids?



You can look at Finland. They have 2 nuclear plants, one western and one soviet/russian. Russia is going to build them third plant, Russia will hold 33% share of this plant and Finland 67%. So finns will control plant, share construction cost with Russia, improve relations with Russia. There is no single shortcoming in such deal, but lithuanians think different or may be american ambassador in Lithuania thinks different.:picard1:

The latest Finnish reactor has been taking twice the time and twice the money to build. And the subcontractors actually building it is a FUBAR mess (as commented by insider estonians).

[Pure ja]

Selling the refinery to Poland wasn't their own decision. 'Energy and economyl independence' was a political decision orchestrated in the West. The governments of former soviet block countries were doing anything they were asked leading to EU entrance in 2004. Poland and Czech Republic didn’t sell their refineries to Lukoil despite it was offering the best bids on the market. So, Lithuania wasn't alone.

There is political and economical bullying coming towards small nations from either side occasionally spilled in the press. Two years ago Lithuania released financial information of 'a Belarusian activist' who held bank accounts in Lithuania. There was so much noise coming towards Lithuanian government as if they surrended top secrets of Pentagon. It's a small country facing difficult decisions.

EU is disintegrating vertical ownership anyway, to curb the Russian oil and gas influence within the EU common market, so there.

[Pure ja]

Aisčiai was used as synonymous with Balts (speakers of Baltic languages). We have names like Aistė/ Aistis. It does not associated with Estonians for us.

You can be part of the Balkan if you like.
Eesti will carry on the Aesti trademark legacy.

[sevruk]

Eesti will carry on the Aesti trademark legacy.

Aesti were Baltic, not Finnish.

[Pure ja]

For us Aisčiai associates with Western Balts who were called Aesti earlier than Estonians. Estonians name themselves after people which they were not. But don't be sad, Balts didn't call themselves Baltai either...

Your 'baltic' name is all over the finnic world, as: Valga, Valdai, Valjala, Valdimurru, Valgupera, Valguta, Valgjärve, Valaste, Valasti, Valgma, Valkla, Valtu, etc.

Valg + ala = flow + area / watershed
Baltic Sea was formed as an ice lake near the glacier's edge onto a flow area.
Valdai is a junction / crossing of several flow areas.
You are stuck with your past whether you like it or not.

[Pure ja]

Aesti were Baltic, not Finnish.

Sure, and north russians were russians, not finnic.

[Pure ja]

All those names you posted are unrelated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti

All of them mentione Aesti instead on Val- :


In that post I was referring to the etymology of 'baltic', not that of 'Aesti'.
I have posted my opinion on 'Aesti' and 'Esten+mere' in previous threads.
If you want to look for alternative origin for Este / Esten, look into 'obstacle' or 'estacade'. 'Este' = 'obstacle'.

As to Estonian toponyms, there are 'Asti' and 'Aste' and 'Astu+vere', but not much else.
One might also add Astangu, due to its meaning (astang = terrace, berm).

[lI]

In that post I was referring to the etymology of 'baltic', not that of 'Aesti'.
How do toponyms with root VALG- have any relevance to the etymology of those with BALT- ???




For us Aisčiai associates with Western Balts who were called Aesti earlier than Estonians. Estonians name themselves after people which they were not. But don't be sad, Balts didn't call themselves Baltai either...
We did, as a matter of fact.

Balti ir indoeiropiešu (http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoeiropie%C5%A1i) tautu grupa - latvieši (http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvie%C5%A1i) un lietuvieši (http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lietuvie%C5%A1i)http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balti

and

BALTI BALELINI

(http://www.dainuskapis.lv/meklet/balti-balelini)

And especially this :D

Aizej, lietiņ, rūkdams, kaukdams,
Uz tiem melniem Igauņiem;
Atnāc, saulit, līgodama,
Uz tiem baltiem Latviešiem.
(http://www.dainuskapis.lv/meklet/igau%C5%86iem)

A rough translation of that lovely folk song for Pure ja:
"Go roaring and wailing, you rain, over to those black Estonians! Come singing, dear sun, over to those white (balti!!) Latvians!


http://www.llti.lt/failai/17_Ekerto.pdf

[Hercus Monte]

We did, as a matter of fact.
(http://www.dainuskapis.lv/meklet/balti-balelini)
yeah, we are the white people :D

(does the Latvian wiki actually say that we invented the term?)

[lI]

yeah, we are the white people :D

(does the Latvian wiki actually say that we invented the term?)
No.
But neither was it my intention to claim that Balts invented the term "Balt". Derivations of the proto-Indo-European root bhel- (http://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/bhel-1_balto-slav_auch_bhel%C9%99.htm) still mean "white, bright, shinning" in many languages, not just the Baltic ones.
I only meant to show that we called ourselves by it long before Neselman came along :)

[sevruk]

Sure, and north russians were russians, not finnic.

they never called themselves Finns

[Pure ja]

But did balti denote Balts (i.e. speakers of Latvian and Lithuanian?). I don't think so. That Pure ja as usually tries to claim obvious IE words as Uralic is obvious.

Oh, but you are doubly mistaken.
Nostratic origin is fine, there is no need to claim uralic origin. It is you, indo-europeans, who always behave so possessively.

[riverman]

As she takes the helm of the EU’s rotating presidency, Lithuania’s president has a message for her fellow European leaders: beware the Russian bear.

“There is now a decisive time where Russia is trying to persuade the eastern partners of the EU to go closer towards a customs union,” Dalia Grybauskaite said in an interview with the Financial Times. “Because of economic difficulties, Europe is very busy internally . . . This makes it very convenient for some third countries to spread their influence in the east.”

Lithuania is not the first former communist country to take over the EU presidency. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovenia have held the job, which has responsibility for managing Brussels’ Byzantine legislative process.
But the Baltic state of 3m is the first former Soviet republic to take on the highly symbolic role, which gives Vilnius an outsized platform to set Europe’s agenda for the next six months.

Ms Grybauskaite, a Brussels veteran who spent five years as the EU’s budget commissioner, insisted she would not use the EU presidency as a platform to harden European policy towards the Kremlin of President Vladimir Putin.

At the same time, she has made a November summit in Vilnius between the EU and six former Soviet republics – Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan – a centrepiece of her country’s presidency and has already started lobbying her fellow leaders to embrace these “eastern partners”, even though some are accused of slipping towards authoritarianism.

The most awkward debate is likely to be over Ukraine. For nearly two years, the text of a sweeping bilateral agreement – part free-trade deal, part political harmonisation pact – has been awaiting EU signatures.

But a France-led group in western Europe, including Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands, has held up the deal, largely because of the treatment of the opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, jailed in 2011 on corruption charges in a case the European Court of Human Rights recently labelled illegal and politically motivated.

Ms Grybauskaite said she believed the hold-up is a mistake and has begun lobbying her counterparts to sign the pact in Vilnius and to push off fights over the rule of law to the ratification process.

“The Tymoshenko case has become a symbol of the human rights situation in Ukraine, the quality of legal reforms, the quality of democracy, selective justice – all of these things are concentrated now in one name,” she said. “Europe needs strategically to make a decision not to be jeopardised by one or two people while these people became symbolic.”

Vilnius is walking a fine line in pushing for a Ukrainian deal by November. Although the EU presidency has diminished in importance since the signing of the 2010 Lisbon treaty, it still plays a vital role in making the EU’s legislative machinery work.

As a result, many Brussels insiders bristle at attempts by national politicians to use the presidency pulpit to advance their own policy agendas. Enda Kenny, the prime minister of Ireland, the outgoing holder of the EU presidency, raised hackles early in his tenure by using the presidency megaphone to advocate for debt relief from bailout lenders.
“It would be a conflict of interest to push only Lithuanian issues,” Ms Grybauskaite acknowledged.

Still, Vilnius has been a constant and energetic thorn in Russia’s side. More than any other EU member, it prodded the European Commission into launching an anti-monopoly case against Gazprom last year amid allegations the Russian gas company was bullying central and eastern European governments into unfair contracts.

There is little sign Ms Grybauskaite will curtail her campaign because of sensitivities in Brussels. Indeed, she warns there are signs the Kremlin may be using Lithuania’s presidency to ramp up its campaign, saying there has been a spike in cyberattacks in Lithuania and signs minority groups are being “artificially activated” by outside forces.
“I of course am not able to say who exactly is making trouble, but trouble is occurring,” she said.

A spokesman for the Russian mission to the EU declined to comment.

Thus far, her bluntness has not been a liability in Brussels. Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, singled her out for praise during fraught EU budget negotiations, sparking speculation she could be in line for a top EU job when her term ends next year.

“I’m not even planning my time any more,” she said of her political plans. “I will be where it is necessary, and mainly where it is necessary is with the Lithuanian people.”


O.k., do you have any opinion on this?

[Pure ja]

How do toponyms with root VALG- have any relevance to the etymology of those with BALT- ???


Yes, glad you asked.
About that nostratic root.

You see, in estonian language, the root val(g)- has more than one meaning: including white, including good, including light, including fall/flow, including ownership, including state organisation, including pain.

'Valge valgus valgub üle välu': white light flows over the opening
valge = white
valgus = light
valgub = flows
välu = opening, clearing, glade

valg + ala = flow + area, watershed, tributary
valu kiirgab = pain beams
valu = pain
valu + koda = a smith's working room for casting metal into cast
valu = cast

vald = a state unit, in Estonia designates the smallest state unit; in Finland designates the largest state unit (the Finland state)
valdama = to own
vallutama ('valtaama' in finnish) = to take ownership

The derivatives of vald- and valg- quite correctly suggests that the original stone age basic social governments (tribes) owned a flow area, tributary, or a branch of it. And hence Valdai - a place where several watersheds met, a place of states in plural, a stone age place for meetings between neighbouring tribes.

'valg(umine)/vool' in estonian language means a slow and steady flow.
To be more specific, the verb 'voolama' refers to to a continuous and gradual fall/flow.
The verb 'valguma' refers to a slow but more perpendicular fall/flow.

So, the Baltic Sea actually refers to a Flow Sea, or rather a glacial flow lake. White is a secondary meaning, 'good' is a tertiary meaning.
One should also note that there are TWO "white" seas in Europe: the Baltic Sea and the White Sea. BOTH seas were born out of glacial meltwaters. BOTH seas were at least for a short time connected with each other at the end of the last ice age. And coincidentally, both seas are fed by a river named Väina / Dvina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Dvina#Etymology

Can't you just love the busy indoeuropeans writing the following:
"According to the Max Vasmer's Etymological Dictionary, the name of the river has been transferred from the Western Dvina River. The toponym Dvina clearly cannot stem from a Uralic language, however, its origin is unclear. Possibly it is an Indo-European word which used to mean river or stream.[2]"

And then there is a rather meager comment that:
"In Finnish river is known as Viena or Vienanjoki, which means slowly running river and is feminine form of Väinä, meaning same."

What is missing is that in estonian language, 'väina' means a 'strait', that the seas around the West-Estonian islands is called Väinameri (Strait Sea), that the Väina river (Daugava, western Dvina) flows into the Väinameri, that the finnic folk tales on creation myth speak of Väinämöinen / Vanemuine, that the river Suur Emajõgi in Estonia was 14 000 years ago one of the two straits that connected the western "White" Sea with the northern / eastern "White" Sea. And obviously, that the strait of Suur Emajõgi later on became a slowly flowing river (so slow that it actually changed the direction of flow from time to time).

It would certainly be interesting to find out whether both Väina (Dvina) rivers formed a strait connecting the western and north-eastern part of any local glacial lakes at the end (or maybe even at the middle?) of the last ice age.


So how did the confusion of Balt from 'flow' to 'white' take hold? Because in baltic-finnic dialects the derivatives for 'flow' and 'white' stem from the same root ('Valge valgus valgub üle välu').

[Pure ja]

they never called themselves Finns

That you do not know.
Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.

And may I note that finns (especially proper finns = varsinaissuomalaiset) formed a very small part of baltic-finns.
What you now know as Finns formed a majority of baltic-finns only perhaps after the Livonian War, possibly even after the Great Nordic War. Before that they were a minority and thus it would be unwise to assume that other baltic-finns would have wanted to call themselves as Finns. Finns are just a subset of baltic-finnic, have always been. And baltic-finnic is just a subset of finnic (which also includes Volga finnics and Perm finnics and Sürja finnics).

[Pure ja]

And especially this :D

Aizej, lietiņ, rūkdams, kaukdams,
Uz tiem melniem Igauņiem;
Atnāc, saulit, līgodama,
Uz tiem baltiem Latviešiem.
(http://www.dainuskapis.lv/meklet/igau%C5%86iem)

A rough translation of that lovely folk song for Pure ja:
"Go roaring and wailing, you rain, over to those black Estonians! Come singing, dear sun, over to those white (balti!!) Latvians!


http://www.llti.lt/failai/17_Ekerto.pdf

I am guessing that would be the river Mustjõe (Black river) estonians / võros / setos from the Ugandi and Talava counties.
So just admit it that Talava people were estonians once - your own songs are evidence of that ;)

PS. The Sun (holocene Kaali, Ilumetsa and Tsõõrikmäe meteorite impacts) clearly favours estonians ;)

[lI]

But did balti denote Balts (i.e. speakers of Latvian and Lithuanian?). I don't think so.
It used to denote "us" as opposed to "others" (like Estonians, Germans, Russians, Gypsies..) among both Latvians and Lithuanians, but not collectively "Lithuanians and Latvians". Although it should be noted that from a Lithuanian perspective Latvians used to be included in the notion "us", as evidenced by a complete lack of references to "Latvians" in Lithuanian folklore (there's no lack of references to other neighboring nations BY, PL & RU who were perceived as distinctive entities). So, one can say that in the past the usage of this term pretty much coincided with the current one in LT but not in LV.

Since Neselman first came up with this term in 1845, that was more or less contemporaneous with the National Awakening in both Lithuania and Latvia. If "baltas/balts" hadn't already had such a strong positive connotation in LT & LV, I'm sure that Balts would have put some effort in campaigning against its usage instead of gladly accepting it.


I am guessing that would be the river Mustjõe (Black river) estonians / võros / setos from the Ugandi and Talava counties.
So just admit it that Talava people were estonians once - your own songs are evidence of that ;)A fail at comprehension on your behalf - the song is from the area of Valga region which does not border Setomaa, so the demonym used in there bears no relevance to the supposed origin of Seto people ;)
Lithuanians have a very similar song about asking clouds to go over to Prussians. It was recorded at the time when the original Prussians had long been exterminated or assimilated in Prussia and the people who were referred by this demonym were German Prussians. Does the fact that at some point Lithuanians started to call Germans as "Prussians" prove that the original Prussians were German(ic) too? Nope. The transference of the name from the conquered Old Prussians to the invading Krauts is well recorded historical fact.
Likewise, the term Igauni nowadays being used to refer to Estonians is no proof that the original inhabitants of Ugandi were Finnic speaking too. The fact that in Estonian folklore, Ugaunians (ugalased) are portrayed as enemy warriors and robbers also supports the hypothesis that the original people to whom this name pertained were not the same as contemporary Estonians.

Anyway, lumping all South Estonians together make little sense as Seto are exceptional in their conservativeness.
According to Estonian researchers, the South-Estonian culture developed since the later Bronze Age and earlier Iron Age separately, noticeable differences occurred in burial customs and in spiritual culture. However, it is only Setos who maintained these differences the best - as it is also evidenced by their archaic dialect. Most traces have been long lost West of Voro region (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/South_Estonian_language_area.jpg) (which in itself is already much less conservative than Setomaa).


PS. The Sun (holocene Kaali, Ilumetsa and Tsõõrikmäe meteorite impacts) clearly favours estonians ;)The song does not state that the sun was at Estonians at the time of song's creation.
It could have been cloudy in both EE & LV - considering the climate, it was most likely was ;)




So how did the confusion of Balt from 'flow' to 'white' take hold? Because in baltic-finnic dialects the derivatives for 'flow' and 'white' stem from the same root ('Valge valgus valgub üle välu').
I am now struggling to comprehend whether you are merely an overenthusiastic newby who knows jack about linguistics or are you genuinely not quite sane. I guess there's also a third possibility that you're just trolling.


I'll repeat it just because you didn't seem to take notice the first time round:
How do toponyms with root VALG- have any relevance to the etymology of those with BALT- ???

Basically - as usual - you just take a preconceived notion (based on absolutely nothing) that these two roots have a common origin and proceed to build up on that. So, if it's fine to take two different roots, why not take "CELT" to try and explain the origin of the Baltic sea by it - only HALF (!) of the word differs from the original (BALT), just like in your proposition "VALG" :)


Ever heard of the Occam's razor? No? What a pity. So, come again, what is exactly the point of making an assumption that the original meaning of the "Baltic" must have been derived from "flow" rather than directly from "white" for a sea which looks... well... white (http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/600-5/photos/601195.jpg) for a good part of the year?
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/600-5/photos/601195.jpg

And like this for the rest of the year (white foamy waves are not common in inland lakes - unlike in the sea):

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/3518/2z28.jpg



So, the Baltic Sea actually refers to a Flow Sea, or rather a glacial flow lake. White is a secondary meaning, 'good' is a tertiary meaning.Circular reasoning at its best... first make an assumption that the original meaning must be found in Finnic rather than Indo-European, then search for what it could possibly mean in Finnic and then claim that the meaning found in Finnic is more conservative because it does not match the Indo-European one (and in the previous assumption we already determined that the original meaning of the term in question will be closer to Finnic :naughty2: ).

FIY a puddle/a swamp means bala or balutė (a diminutive form) in Lithuanian.

[Pure ja]

A fail at comprehension on your behalf - the song is from the area of Valga region which does not border Setomaa, so the demonym used in there bears no relevance to the supposed origin of Seto people ;)


Not quite.
I brought setos to the picture only because they WERE part of the Talava county, which also borders the Valga region. And because the võro and seto border area was not that strict. It only became strict later on because of the orthodox beliefs - setos had to show exceptional devotion to orthodoxness, to escape repressions (but at the same time they still managed to keep many pagan ways as well).




Lithuanians have a very similar song about asking clouds to go over to Prussians. It was recorded at the time when the original Prussians had long been exterminated or assimilated in Prussia and the people who were referred by this demonym were German Prussians. Does the fact that at some point Lithuanians started to call Germans as "Prussians" prove that the original Prussians were German(ic) too? Nope. The transference of the name from the conquered Old Prussians to the invading Krauts is well recorded historical fact.
Likewise, the term Igauni nowadays being used to refer to Estonians is no proof that the original inhabitants of Ugandi were Finnic speaking too. The fact that in Estonian folklore, Ugaunians (ugalased) are portrayed as enemy warriors and robbers also supports the hypothesis that the original people to whom this name pertained were not the same as contemporary Estonians.


To claim Ugandi people as not finnics is quite a feat even for a devoted indo-european. Especially considering the Lacplesis epic story of a certain estonian Kalapuis from Otepää, hmmm?

And what sources exactly do you refer to which portray Ugandi warriors as enemies of Estonians?
The Livonian Chronicle? That only happened at a time when Ugandi was forced under the influence / rule of crusaders from Riga.
Some Russian chronicles? Again, only temporarily as a forced ally of Novgorod or Pskov raids.
I have no recollection of Ugandi people harrassing other Estonian counties on their own initiative, without foreign interference.

As to Prussia, you (balts) kept the names of Valka and Talava, didn't you?
You also kept Koiva and Üksküla. And some (actually many) other old finnic toponyms.

And more principally, do you represent one of those balts who denies that the ethnic border between finnic and baltic linguistic areas was further south in the past (no matter how distant)?




Anyway, lumping all South Estonians together make little sense as Seto are exceptional in their conservativeness.
According to Estonian researchers, the South-Estonian culture developed since the later Bronze Age and earlier Iron Age separately, noticeable differences occurred in burial customs and in spiritual culture. However, it is only Setos who maintained these differences the best - as it is also evidenced by their archaic dialect. Most traces have been long lost West of Voro region (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/South_Estonian_language_area.jpg) (which in itself is already much less conservative than Setomaa).


Võromaa is much less conservative now because it had been cut off from the dwindling Setomaa.




The song does not state that the sun was at Estonians at the time of song's creation.


But as I understand there are Lithuanian stories / songs that state that the Sun goes to rest in the north, on an island in a sea.
Lithuania and Latvia are well known for their lack of islands. So may I suggest that you look to the north, into the Kaali meteorite crater, perhaps?

[Pure ja]

I am now struggling to comprehend whether you are merely an overenthusiastic newby who knows jack about linguistics or are you genuinely not quite sane. I guess there's also a third possibility that you're just trolling.


Everything is possible. Including the options you left out.
And btw, an assessment says as much about the assessor as about the assessed.



I'll repeat it just because you didn't seem to take notice the first time round:
How do toponyms with root VALG- have any relevance to the etymology of those with BALT- ???


The important part is actually bal- and val-. And that difference seems to go back to at least proto-finno-ugric times.
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/93/rauhala.pdf

As to how the confusion (of white and flow) among balts could have happened - via south-western baltic-finns of course.
One does not have to assume a transformation from val- to bal-.




Basically - as usual - you just take a preconceived notion (based on absolutely nothing) that these two roots have a common origin and proceed to build up on that. So, if it's fine to take two different roots, why not take "CELT" to try and explain the origin of the Baltic sea by it - only HALF (!) of the word differs from the original (BALT), just like in your proposition "VALG" :)


Nothing is certain 100%. All constructs as possible. Some are more probable than others.
Your celtic construct is not even closely as probable.

May I note that the Baltic Sea near Prussia does not usually get sea ice and past climate (before medieval mini-ice age periods) used to be milder still. You would have to go back to the start of holocene to get icy conditions. And as to icy bays, that also happens in the Black Sea, so that is NOT at all exceptional. For your "white" icy sea to have any chance, you first would have to show that the Baltic Sea froze near Prussia at or before the first mention of 'balts' or 'baltic'. May I also suggest you to find out when was the last time the ringed seal population inhabited the shores of the Curonian Spit - that should be an indicator of a good icecover.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringed_seal




Ever heard of the Occam's razor? No? What a pity. So, come again, what is exactly the point of making an assumption that the original meaning of the "Baltic" must have been derived from "flow" rather than directly from "white" ...


Well, what does your Occam's razor tell you about two White Seas in northern Europe, with both having a secondary name of Väina / Viena (Strait Sea), with both having Väina rivers, with both seas having been one at the end of the last ice age.




FIY a puddle/a swamp means bala or balutė (a diminutive form) in Lithuanian.

So, that means that baltic dialects also have the 'valu / vala' for 'flow / fall / cast'.
What about a watershed / flow + area = valg + ala ? Any similarities in baltic dialects?

[Temujin]

"Grybauskaite"- nice surname :D
http://allgrib.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/borovik.jpg


С одного портала. ;)


Даля Грибаускайте:отец — Поликарпас Грибаускас, мать — Виталия Грибаускене (в девичестве Корсакайте). Па ходу бацька Палiкарп Грыбау, а мацi Вiталiя Корсак. Сапараудная лiтвiнка. Вяртайся на Радзiму разам з Вiльняй i хопiць спрачацца.


Перевод:

Даля Грибаускайте:отец — Поликарпас Грибаускас, мать — Виталия Грибаускене (в девичестве Корсакайте). По ходу отец Пoликарп Грибов, мать - Виталия Корсак. Настоящая литвинка. Возвращайся на Родину вместе с Вильнюсом и хватит спорить.

[lI]

Whom was the last sentence addressed to - Grybauskaite herself or the writer's opponent in the portal? And what's her alleged "homeland"?

By now it's already commonly known in Lithuania that her father may have been a re-Lituanized Vilnius' "Pole".

[Temujin]

Whom was the last sentence addressed to - Grybauskaite herself or the writers opponent in the portal? And what's her alleged "homeland"?

By now it's already a commonly known in Lithuania is that her father may have been a re-Lituanized Vilnius' "Pole".

It's a friendly trolling in the comments to a recent article

Translates to
Dalia Grybauskaite: Father - Polikarpas Grybauskas, mother - Vitalija Grybauskiene (maiden name Korsakaite). Well, her father is Polikarp Gribov (Palikarp Grybau), her mother is Vitalija Korsak. She is a true Litvinka [not Lithuanian]. Come back to homeland together with Vilnius and enough to argue. :)

[lI]

LMAO the friendly trollers should ask the non-Lithuanian Vilnius' folks if they would fancy being "returned" to Belarus, but I fear that they would not be too pleased with the answer they would receive.

People who are less conservative about one thing are likely to be less conservative about another one too. Vilnius' Lithuanians who turned into Litvinki at one point, have all since morphed into Poliaki. Your train for Vilnius is long gone, so to speak :)

[Temujin]

By now it's already a commonly known in Lithuania is that her father may have been a re-Lituanized Vilnius' "Pole".

Polikarp was a common name among Ruthenians. I am not sure if it's common among Poles or Vilnius Poles. The language and culture shift in the region happened several times in the past. I don't think anyone considers her anything but Lithuanian in neighbouring countries. The comment was a friendly trolling. :)

[Temujin]

LMAO the friendly trollers should ask the non-Lithuanian Vilnius' folks if they would fancy being "returned" to Belarus, but I fear that they would not be too pleased with the answer they would receive.


Two Belarusians having a conversation after visiting Vilnius.

- First guy: The old part of Vilnius is beautiful. The new part is not so good. There 's nothing happening in Vilnius. Minsk is much better.
- Second guy: No wonder! Litvins built the old town. The new part of Vilnius was built by Lithuanians.
;)

I think you get a distorted view on Belarus in the media. Yes, Lithuanians are likely to go to Norway or UK. It's easier and wages are higher.

[lI]

I think you get a distorted view on Belarus in the media. Yes, Lithuanians are likely to go to Norway or UK. It's easier and wages are higher.Ex-Litvins of Vilnius are just as likely, if not likelier, to go to UK or Norway and I don't think that the lack of exposure to Belarus-the-beautiful can play a factor here since there's no language barrier in terms of access to the media for them :)


Two Belarusians having a conversation after visiting Vilnius.

- First guy: The old part of Vilnius is beautiful. The new part is not so good. There 's nothing happening in Vilnius. Minsk is much better.
- Second guy: No wonder! Litvins built the old town. The new part of Vilnius was built by Lithuanians.
;)In that case I am alarmed by the state of education in Belarus - seems like they aren't aware of the architects of Vilnius' old town having come from a very different side of Europe than where Belarus is.
Belarusians would be in a better position to claim the merits for the construction of those not-so-good new parts as it was none other than Belarus itself from which the replacement for the expelled Vilnius' autochtones was imported to build the brave new Vilnius (http://gs.delfi.lt/images/pix/file52992487_6459119f.jpg) ;)

[Temujin]

Ex-Litvins of Vilnius are just as likely, if not likelier, to go to UK or Norway and I don't think that the lack of exposure to Belarus-the-beautiful can play a factor here since there's no language barrier in terms of access to the media for them :)

One of the reason young Lithuanians loosing arguments on belarusians forums quickly is not being as articulate in Russian language as Belarusians. The conversations takes place in Russian language. The other reason - Belarus among few post soviet countries managed to retain all the good things from old educational system. It seems younger generation Lithuanians experience language barrier and their favourite University studying programs are foreign languages to leave Lithuania as soon as possible. :)



In that case I am alarmed by the state of education in Belarus - seems like they aren't aware of the architects of Vilnius' old town having come from a very different side of Europe than where Belarus is.
Belarusians would be in a better position to claim the merits for the construction of those not-so-good new part as it was none other than Belarus itself from which the replacement for the expelled Vilnius' autochtones was imported to build the brave new Vilnius (http://gs.delfi.lt/images/pix/file52992487_6459119f.jpg) ;)

It was only a joke between two visiting guys. They didn't have google in front of them. Lithuanians are not the only people who are being joked about. :)

[lI]

One of the reason young Lithuanians loosing arguments on belarusians forums quickly is not being as articulate in Russian language as Belarusians. The conversations takes place in Russian language.Oh well, it's the token of not having Russian as our mother tongue - something few young Belarussians can brag of ;)
I feel that it's been a reasonable tradeoff..



The other reason - Belarus among few post soviet countries managed to retain all the good things from old educational system. It seems younger generation Lithuanians experience language barrier and their favourite University studying programs are foreign languages to leave Lithuania as soon as possible. :)
It was only a joke between two visiting guys. They didn't have google in front of them. Lithuanians are not the only people who are being joked about. :)If they would have needed to have google in front of them in order to now things like that, I wonder if the things that have been retained from the old educational system are indeed as good as you say :)

[Temujin]

If they would have needed to have google in front of them in order to now things like that, I wonder if the things that have been retained from the old educational system are indeed as good as you say :)

The educational system is better than in most post Soviet countries as far as I know. You can check the ratings, I couldn't be bothered looking for them.


In that case Lithuanians, who know the history of Vilnius's architecture well, are more educated than people in the neighbouring countries, as many residents of the neighbouring countries [I'm not talking about Belarus] would not be able to pin-point Lithuania on the map let alone know the name of its capital or the history of the capital's architecture. :)

The planning of old city was likely to be organised by local administration and built by local labour, while Lithuanians were the largest ethnical group in Vilnius between 50s-90s as our Lithuanian friends like to remind us. :)