Any information on Basque History and their connection with other Pre Indo Europeans?

[Stefan]

The internet seems to be void of any detailed information on these people. I find them quite interesting and actually think they may provide a connection on what the languages and religions of European before the Indo-European expansion. I haven't found much really. All that I've found on the religious side of things was that they worship their Goddess Mari, and I've read some short stories that seem to have a very Celtic or Animistic feel. This makes sense because they most likely had a lot of interaction with the Celtiberians and Gauls. Their language is an isolate, and while it would be nice to here your theories on it's connections with other languages, I doubt there is anybody with concrete information that goes past speculation. Does anybody have any information on the basque? More specifically is there any types of literature on Basque ideas or stories. Is anybody here Basque, by that I mean you speak the language and have certain traditions that they would like to share? Do you think there were other non Indo European(culturally) peoples who have had a connection with the Basque, but since then have perished? Basically I would like as much information that anybody could provide, as well as some good discussion and debates. Thanks. :thumbs up

[Lenny]

Do you think there were other non Indo European(culturally) peoples who have had a connection with the Basque, but since then have perished?
The answer is certainly Yes. It's likely that our Cromagnon ancestors in Europe, crowding around fires during the Ice Age so many millennia ago, mostly spoke languages from the language-family to which Basque belongs. They didn't perish though, they simply changed their language.

See here for a fascinating paper that addresses many of your inquires:
Languages in Prehistoric Europe (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8670/Languages-in-prehistoric-Europe-north-of-the-Alps)

The three principal language families that competed for supremacy in Europe during the 10,000 years before the beginning of the AD were Vasconic (Basque the only survivor), Semitidic (No survivors in Europe, but Arabic belongs to this parafamily), and Indo-European.

Some linguists have done work to try to prove a tenuous link of Basque to Caucauses languages and to one of the AmericanIndian language-families.

[Mesrine]

It's likely that our Cromagnon ancestors in Europe

Let's kill this legend once and for all: Europeans don't descend from Cro-Magnons. They went extinct during the last glaciation. Europeans descend from Mesolithic Gravettian resettlers, Neolithic peasants and more recent migration waves from the metal ages (the proportions of the mixture are still unknown).



The three principal language families that competed for supremacy in Europe during the 10,000 years before the beginning of the AD were Vasconic (Basque the only survivor), Semitidic (No survivors in Europe, but Arabic belongs to this parafamily), and Indo-European.

Another legend. Proto-Basque could as well be of Neolithic, or even later origin.

Vennemann's work is highly debatable, to say the least (vast majority of scholars totally reject it).



Some linguists have done work to try to prove a tenuous link of Basque to Caucauses languages and to one of the AmericanIndian language-families.

Way too remote and improbable. Some linguists are reactivating the Iberian-Aquitanian link these days, though.

[Stefan]

The answer is certainly Yes. It's likely that our Cromagnon ancestors in Europe, crowding around fires during the Ice Age so many millennia ago, mostly spoke languages from the language-family to which Basque belongs. They didn't perish though, they simply changed their language.

See here for a fascinating paper that addresses many of your inquires:
Languages in Prehistoric Europe (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8670/Languages-in-prehistoric-Europe-north-of-the-Alps)

The three principal language families that competed for supremacy in Europe during the 10,000 years before the beginning of the AD were Vasconic (Basque the only survivor), Semitidic (No survivors in Europe, but Arabic belongs to this parafamily), and Indo-European.

Some linguists have done work to try to prove a tenuous link of Basque to Caucauses languages and to one of the AmericanIndian language-families.

I meant they perished culturally not died off. That is quite interesting , thank you.

[Stefan]

Let's kill this legend once and for all: Europeans don't descend from Cro-Magnons. They went extinct during the last glaciation. Europeans descend from Mesolithic Gravettian resettlers, Neolithic peasants and more recent migration waves from the metal ages (the proportions of the mixture are still unknown).


I always thought it was accepted that there are descendants of Cro-Magnon. During the last glacial period they held out in 3 pockets: The Iberian Peninsula, Alpines, and the other one I forget. After that they repopulated the Continent + British Isles. Either way, there have always been Human occupation of the Continent since Cro-Magnon occupation, and after the last Glacial Period but before the Mesolithic cultures. I usually don't like to use wikipedia as a source, but this seems very accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic

[Lenny]

Another legend. Proto-Basque could as well be of Neolithic, or even later origin.

Vennemann's work is highly debatable, to say the least (vast majority of scholars totally reject it).
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7388/basqueoverview.jpg

Archaeology shows us that the Basque/"Vasconic" historic area correlates with the spectacular ancient CroMagnon cave-paintings. I don't see how any conclusion other than Paleolithic-to-present continuity can be reached.

[Mesrine]

I always thought it was accepted that there are descendants of Cro-Magnon.

Accepted mostly by Basque nationalists and their sympathizers. Absolutely unbiased people (see their point? "We live here since 40 000 years, it's our land!"). :D

Problem is that they don't have any proof of what they're saying, and it's much more likely that they descend from Neolithic peasants and Megalithic sea farers. Anyway you won't find more divergent phenotypes than Cro-Mags and Baskids, really.



Either way, there have always been Human occupation of the Continent since Cro-Magnon occupation

Not quite, there was a glacial discontinuity, and Europe was repeopled from the Middle-East by Gravettians starting from 15 000 years ago, roughly.



http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7388/basqueoverview.jpg

Archaeology shows us that the Basque/"Vasconic" historic area correlates with the spectacular ancient CroMagnon cave-paintings. I don't see how any conclusion other than Paleolithic-to-present continuity can be reached.

Painted caves area isn't Cro-Mag, it's Magdalenian, and Magdalenians were Gravettians. Anyway I don't see why there should be a continuity. People and language replacements are a common thing. The scenario of a Proto-Basque continuity is only a belief.

Don't forget that before the Neolithic, the population density was ridiculously low, making replacements very easy (the continent you live in is an excellent recent example of that). Best proof of this is that the Basques (and Western Europeans) are overwhelwingly R1b, and this haplogroup arrived in Western Europe only 5 000 years ago.

[Lenny]

Best proof of this is that the Basques (and Western Europeans) are overwhelwingly R1b, and this haplogroup arrived in Western Europe only 5 000 years ago.That's not accurate; a poor choice of word.

"Scientists propose that Haplogroup R1b originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from West-Asia 35,000 to 40,000 years ago (http://www.healthanddna.com/Ysample.PDF)." Those would be Cromagnoids.


The best proof that Europeans are heavily descendants of ancient Cromagnoids is physical. There are a lot of physical types in Europe that look exactly like the Cromagnon "cave men".

[Mesrine]

That's not accurate; a poor choice of word.

"Scientists propose that Haplogroup R1b originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from West-Asia 35,000 to 40,000 years ago (http://www.healthanddna.com/Ysample.PDF)." Those would be Cromagnoids.


The best proof that Europeans are heavily descendants of ancient Cromagnoids is physical. There are a lot of physical types in Europe that look exactly like the Cromagnon "cave men".

What you posted is not only laughable, but it's totally outdated (2000, 9 years is like 9 centuries in genetics, lol). R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)) originated somewhere between Anatolia and South Asia only 18 000 years ago (so your Cro-Mag correlation is anachronic), and arrived roughly 5 000 years ago in Western Europe, in late Neolithic times (possibly related to the expansion of the Cardial pottery culture in Southern Europe), so your tables are totally overthrown. It's common knowledge since almost two years now, you need to keep up the pace.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b


R1b1b2 is thought to have arrived in central and western Europe around 2300 BCE, by going up the Danube from the Black Sea coast. This correspond to an archeological vacuum in the old Maykop homeland, so the migration must have been on a massive scale, maybe due to pressure from other (R1a) Indo-European people from the north. There might have been several consecutive waves across the Black Sea to the Danube, but the largest one between 2500 BCE (end of the Maykop culture) and 2300 BCE (beginning of the Unetice culture).

[Kadu]

What you posted is not only laughable, but it's totally outdated (2000, 9 years is like 9 centuries in genetics, lol). R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)) originated somewhere between Anatolia and South Asia only 18 000 years ago (so your Cro-Mag correlation is anachronic), and arrived roughly 5 000 years ago in Western Europe, in late Neolithic times (possibly related to the expansion of the Cardial pottery culture in Southern Europe), so your tables are totally overthrown. It's common knowledge since almost two years now, you need to keep up the pace.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b

I agree and subscribe what you said but we still have to find an explanation for those who belonged to the Azilian culture that flourished in Northern Spain and SouthWestern France during the epipaleolithic period. We have to correlate them with an haplogroup.