Where do the blonde haired kablye of north africa come from

[Fire Haired]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdcQ3I8Y0dkjpybWOAJaxPDy4VQ1B4b XZdey8T0H3Ro33u0t1ohttp://img138.imageshack.us/img138/361/31764101501892335851285.jpghttp://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mab2ma4Nrc1qgrypy.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmC2xmPQfGpPQtHvfkqeuaJl2RJdrXg 6tDrrg6DXy9jCul-YtIQg



I have been looking at genetics of Berbers( the biggest and oldest ethnicisty in north Africa about 6,000-10,000 years old) and i have heard and read about the Kabyle in the Atlas mountains. Who are known for blonde hair and blue eyes and also surprisingly red hair. Some sub groups of Kablye have 18% blonde hair that is more than Spain, Italy, southern France, Greece, and southern Yugoslaviens. These are all the Europeans who live in the Mediterranean they may have inter married with, central and northern Yugoslavians have about 20-30% blonde hair but that is not enough for these Berbers to get 18% from inter marriage they would have to be nearly 100% Yugoslavien.

Greece and Yugoslaiva over 4,000 years ago would have had alot more blonde hair just inter marriage with dark haired near easterns has lowered the percentage. Same with French the ancient Gauls of France where very well known for blonde hair the only area of France with less than 20% blonde hair also has very high amounts of middle eastern Y DNA haplogroups which most likely came from Rome.

I have known about these people for a few months. I thought they where very rare and there was not enough DNA tests on them to know where they came from but what made me want to make this thread.

At church i heard a missionary who went to Moorco( far northwest Africa mainly in the Atlas mountains) tell about the different ethnic groups he saw. He said that the Moorconas thought he was apart of a ethnic group that lived in the mountains because he had light skin and blue eyes. He went up to he went up to these mounatins the Mooracns said the pale skinned people lived. The Missonary said there are millions of these people and they looked surprisingly European many had light skin and sometimes blue eyed or blonde hair and red hair.

He said these people where actulley seen as a very ancient ethnic group and have been isolated from inter marriage with other berbers for a very long time because they are isolated in the mountains. And lived there before Arab Muslim invasion and that they used to be powerful and are very traditional berbers. also that Most are palish skinned with dark hair and eyed but some did have blonde hair or red hair.

The people the Missonary talked about remained me of the Kabyle i wondered if they where who he was talking about. So i researched the Kablye every thing the MIssonary said was perfectly accurate and matched the Kabyle. They are the Largest speaking Berber ethnic group in Algeria and second biggest in all of Africa there are 5-7 million of them. Kabyle live mainly in the Atlas mountains and far northern Algeria. They are very proud Berbers and fought for more recognition of the Berber language in 1980. The mountains serve as a refuge from outside influences. The Kablye fought against being culturally influenced by ancient Romans over 2,000 years ago, Arab Muslims (over 1,300 years ago), and French colonist in the 1800's.

I know at some point they had of inter married with a very light haired light eyed sometimes red haired group of Europeans before Ancient Rome because the Romans mentioned them and their language is over 4,000 years old. The Pale skin, blonde hair, and red hair of Kabyle is so spread out and they are one of the biggest ethnic groups of north Africa it had to be thousands and thousands of years ago when a group of Europeans inter married with them

. It makes alot of sense they live right at the border of north Africa and Spain but it could not have been Spaniards. Maybe over 8,000 years ago people in spain had alot of blonde hair and red hair i dont know.

Here are some examples of typical Kablye people

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Mohamed_Fellag.JPG/155px-Mohamed_Fellag.JPGhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Portrait_de_Lounis_A%C3%AFt_Menguellet_%28n%C3%A9_ en_1950%29.jpg/150px-Portrait_de_Lounis_A%C3%AFt_Menguellet_%28n%C3%A9_ en_1950%29.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/19/Mouloud-mammeri_349003.jpg/160px-Mouloud-mammeri_349003.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Ahmed_Ouyahia_2011.jpg/213px-Ahmed_Ouyahia_2011.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHrO5b8Bq_s0CvkdwQiFyNVcA9IsF0j YAcgeXGgLR9J-MQOL5Jhttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUvL55si1YDSh-FFyg6TDDPUt7wwiyLPg-DzK8fPQta1IRm_yi
Iberian Migration after the last Ice age 15,000 years ago


This is my theory for the light skinned sometimes blonde haired or red haired Kablye people. In the Last Glacial Maximum i will just call it last ice age from 26,500-19,000 years ago most of central and northern Europe was covered in ice and was uninhabitble. Most Humans in Europe took refuge in southern Europe. There have been mtDNA traces of people who took refuge in Iberia then helped resettle Europe after the glaciers retreated. They spread mtDNA H1, H3, V, and U5b1(1).

I have explianed the reasons why this last ice age resstlment of Europe really did happen so many times on this website and it takes a very long time and most people dont read so i am going to try to guve a short explination or just read my resourse (1).

The mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3, V, and U5b1 which are from the migrations out of Iberia 15,000ybp after the last ice age are about 15-30% in most Europeans and north west Africans, 30-50% in Iberians, and 30-40% and in Scandinavians. But these haplogroups are very rare in the middle east and non north west Africa.

The mtDNA of the Kablye people is H=32.3%, U=29.03%(U6= 17.74%), L=8.07%(L3a=4.84%, L1=3.23%), V=4.84%, T=3.23%, J=3.23%, M1=3.23%, R=3.23%, N=1.61%)(2). It did not say how much H1 and H3 they had just 32.3% H. H1, and H3 are the main haplogroups that spread from Iberia 15,000ybp. They are actulley very common in northwest Africa The Turag in Libya have 61% H1(3). H1 and H3 are just as popular in North west Africa as in most of Europe while H1 and H3 are much less popular in the middle east and the rest of north Africa. There have been DNA studies of H1 in north Africa and they concluded that it did not come from recent Iberian inter rmarraige and that it came from Iberia at least 8,000-9,000 years ago(3).

two 12,000 year old mtDNA V samples came from the Atlas mountains in Morocco which pretty much proves these migration happened(4). The only four that where able to find a fir sure haplogroup all had H they possibly had H1 or H3. Also Berbers have their own subclade of mtDNA U5b1 which is a European haplogroup. U5 originated in Europe over 50,000-60,000 years ago.

The sami of far northern Scandinavia have about 50% V(which came from Iberian refuge), and 40-50% U5b1( which came form Iberian refuge). The Sami U5b1 is most related to the Berber U5b1 their common ancestor is estimated to have lived 8,000ybp in Iberia. I think those ages are off probably right after the glacier in Europe retreated 15,000-19,000 years ago. They gave a date to 8,000-9,000 years ago when H1 arrived in North Africa from Iberia this means it came in the same migration as U5b1, But like i said before the dating are probably off.

We dont know if these Iberians would have been dark haired and eyed like modern Iberians. austomnal DNA( basically it tells ur full ancestry) from a 7,000 year old hunter gather in northern Spain his closest modern relatives are Finnish and Sami people in Scandinavia(6). This is because Sami and Finnish ancestors have been separated from other Europeans for at least 10,000 years.

So, they have not inter married mainly with near eastern farmers who came in the Neolithic age (6,000-10,000ybp) and have kept many austome genes the rest of Europe lost. It is true that the Iberians that migrated to North Africa 12,000-15,000ybp would be most related to modern Sami and Finnish that does not exactly mean they had light hair and eyes like Sami and Finnish.

The original European aust. DNA group according to the globe13 test is called north European because it is most popular in northern Europe but is popular in all of Europe. modern Iberians have 30-40% north European, and 50-60% Mediterranean most western Europeans have 30-40% meditreaen and 50-60% north European(8).

In aust, DNA from farmers in Europe in the Neolithic age had over 59% Mediterranean, the Med component in Europe came with farmers from the middle east.Since alot of Iberians ancestry is from those farmers who where dark haired and eyed maybe the light hair, light eyes, and red hair in Iberia disappeared. Sami and Finnish people most likely come mainly from those Iberians in the last ice age 15,000ybp and they have mainly light hair and eyes so there is a good chance these Iberians that went to north Africa 12,000-15,000ybp did too.

A very important note to take is Kablye have red hair. Red hair today almost only exists in western Europe with the borders of Indo European Y DNA R1b L11's subclades. except for the Udmurts in volga Russia who have 15% red hair(7). Also the ancinet Indo Iranien Indo Europeans who migrated out of the steppes to cetral asia about 5,000ybp also had high amounts of red hair. Red hair is sometimes still found today in indo Iranian speaking areas today like Kurds in Iraq, Kalash in Pakistan, Pashuten in Afghanistan.

All red hair in the world comes from Indo Europeans who where from many differnt ethnic groups in central Russia and the caucus who mixed 6,000-8,000ybp. Except Udmurt in volga Russia but the Udmurts live in the area where the Indo European languages spread from so they get red hair from the same source as Indo Europeans did.

8,000-10,000 years ago red hair would have only existed in people around central Russia and Ukriane and it would have been extremely popular. Then if the Kablye have red hair and did not get it from Indo European migrations where the heck did it come from. This might mean red hair existed in Paleolithic Spain.

The Kablye do have 15% R1b M269(2) it did not say if they had the western European type R1b l11 but they defintley do and they most likley got it from Spainish. It is true that some ethnic groups in northern Spain like Basque have 1-3% red hair but the Kablye would have gotten R1b from southern Spanish. So i dont think that is a explanation for their red hair. the Kabyle are evidence red hair originated in Spain in the last glacial Maximum 26,600-19,000 years ago.

I know this seems long and many people have complained i write way to much, but i actulley tried to keep this short and cut it down alot. I cant make it too short and easy to read because i would be leaving out important information.

I think there needs to be more DNA study of the Kabyle people. They should intentionally study the blonde haired ones or very european looking ones, Sine they will have more blood from what ever European group they got those features from. For now i think it was Iberians who migrated there about 15,000 years ago.

If anyone has other ideas please post it. here is a link to the DNA we have so far of Kablye people it is just mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-15


Resources
(1)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22560092
(2)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-15
(3)http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378
(4)http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/nafricaadna.shtml
(5)http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
(6)http://fennoscandia.blogspot.com/2013/06/la-brana-and-saamis-ii.html
(7)http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml
(8)https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

[Peyrol]

2nd girl is Pied Noir and not a Khabile.

Btw, blonde khabiles are something like 10,000 people in a total maghrebi population of 80 million people.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81232-North-african-quot-whiteness-quot-false-myth

[Prince Carlo]

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/361/31764101501892335851285.jpg

This is clearly an Anglo tourist or something.

[Smeagol]

They're indigenous North Africans.

[rashka]

They came from slave raids of European villages. Look up Barbary Pirates, Ottoman Pirates or Corsairs.
From the 16th to 19th century, corsairs captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million people as slaves.

[Smeagol]

They came from slave raids of European villages.

No they don't, the ancient Egyptians even depicted Berbers as fair skinned, and often with red, or blonde hair.

[rashka]

They also came about from the numerous wars that the Europeans had in Northern Africa, for example Carthage, 148 B.C., 264 B.C.



http://youtu.be/BZrjXEomBXM

[Smeagol]

They also came about from the numerous wars that the Europeans had in Northern Africa, for example Carthage, 148 B.C., 264 B.C.

Prove it. I doubt the Punic wars made any genetic impact, most of the battles were fought in Europe.

[HillY35]

Wikipedia says they have a large "Nordic" element, and it quotes Coon, apparently. Very interesting thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-S-Coon_RacesOfEurope-9

[rashka]

There's plenty of proof. Common knowledge of white slavery in the Middle East.

Some quotes:

Throughout this period slaves were traded openly in most cities, including cities as diverse as Marseilles, Dublin, Verdun and Prague. Many were sold to buyers in the Middle East. The town of Caffa in the Crimea was called the capital of the medieval slave trade, but an overland route to Caliphate of Córdoba took pagan and dualist[clarification needed] Slavs from Kiev through Lviv and Prague.

Between the 6th and 10th centuries AD, members of pagan Slavonic peoples were taken prisoner by the Khazars, Kypchaks and other steppe peoples and taken to the slave markets in Crimea. In addition, during the wars between the pagan Slavonic states and Christian states of Europe, many prisoners of war from both sides were sold as slaves. After the Muslim conquests of North Africa and most of the Iberian peninsula, the Islamic world became a huge importer of slaves from Eastern Europe. The trade routes were established between slave trade centres in the pagan Slavonic countries (for example Prague and Wolin) and Arab metropoles in the Muslim-controlled regions of the Iberian peninsula (Al-Andalus). Slave trade between the Slavonic lands and the Orient was carried out by Vikings (see Rus' people), Iberian Jews (known as Radhanites) and others. Some Slavonic rules participated in the slave trade indirectly. For example, the converted Christian ruler Mojmír I of the Great Moravian Empire taxed the slave caravans that passed through his lands, providing an important source of revenue, if indirectly. This trade came to an end in the 10th century after the Christianisation of Slavic countries.

[ChocolateFace]

Light features are also native in North Africa,Middle East,etc

[Smeagol]

There's plenty of proof. Common knowledge of white slavery in the Middle East.

Some quotes:

So? Give me genetic proof they have significant European DNA. The Egyptians depicted them with fair skin, and hair, thousands of years before that slavery.

[rashka]

So? Give me genetic proof they have significant European DNA. The Egyptians depicted them with fair skin, and hair, thousands of years before that slavery.
Let's see those Egyptian depictions...

[Guapo]

they came from albania

[Smeagol]

Let's see those Egyptian depictions...

Here's what the Egyptians depicted the Berbers as. The first four: (Light brown hair, and pale white skin)
http://genetiker.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/book-of-gates-1.jpg

Berber depiction of themselves: (notice the blonde)
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/amil-hair.jpg

Roman depiction:
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/nile22.jpg

[rashka]

In this picture, the outlines are clearly Sub-Saharan. I don't see blond hair. Are they wearing some kind of cloths on their heads?

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/amil-hair.jpg

[Smeagol]

In this picture, the outlines are clearly Sub-Saharan.

Uh, how are they Sub-Saharan? There were no negroes in Northwest Africa at that time.


I don't see blond hair. Are they wearing some kind of cloths on their heads?

I think the guy on the right is wearing some kind of helmet. The guy in the middle is obviously a blonde.

[Stormer99]

Well the climate of the Atlas Mountains can produce some lighter types as you can see. Also, some of the Muslims expelled from Spain were actually European converts to Islam. Many of them ended up in North Africa.

[Sikeliot]

Probably Andalusian ancestry from the Reconquista.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Slavery to the middle of mountains? lol Of nordic types? lol

Sorry but north africa is not black, and has never been black or even close.

There is a "mediterranean" component and "nilotic" component in nordics that is actually from the ancient nords themselves, they were first to sail the mediterranean and brought I and r1b to north africa among other places.

[Artek]

.Greece and Yugoslaiva over 4,000 years ago would have had alot more blonde hair just inter marriage with dark haired near easterns has lowered the percentage. Same with French the ancient Gauls of France where very well known for blonde hair the only area of France with less than 20% blonde hair also has very high amounts of middle eastern Y DNA haplogroups which most likely came from Rome.
Dark haired Near Easterners you are talking about were in Europe as early as 5500 - 5000 BC and were mostly G2a, E1b, I2(?) from what we know today.
I would be very careful of saying about much blonder Europe years ago and very blonde Gauls.


I know at some point they had of inter married with a very light haired light eyed sometimes red haired group of Europeans before Ancient Rome because the Romans mentioned them and their language is over 4,000 years old. The Pale skin, blonde hair, and red hair of Kabyle is so spread out and they are one of the biggest ethnic groups of north Africa it had to be thousands and thousands of years ago when a group of Europeans inter married with them
Thousand and thousands of years ago Berber group didn't existed, Europe had also the different definition that time - divided into rather distant group of farmers and hunter-gatherers.


It makes alot of sense they live right at the border of north Africa and Spain but it could not have been Spaniards. Maybe over 8,000 years ago people in spain had alot of blonde hair and red hair i dont know.
We don't know it, that's right.


This is my theory for the light skinned sometimes blonde haired or red haired Kablye people. In the Last Glacial Maximum i will just call it last ice age from 26,500-19,000 years ago most of central and northern Europe was covered in ice and was uninhabitble. Most Humans in Europe took refuge in southern Europe. There have been mtDNA traces of people who took refuge in Iberia then helped resettle Europe after the glaciers retreated. They spread mtDNA H1, H3, V, and U5b1(1).

They helped to resettle the Europe but there were many others refugia as well.


The Kablye do have 15% R1b M269(2) it did not say if they had the western European type R1b l11 but they defintley do and they most likley got it from Spainish. It is true that some ethnic groups in northern Spain like Basque have 1-3% red hair but the Kablye would have gotten R1b from southern Spanish. So i dont think that is a explanation for their red hair. the Kabyle are evidence red hair originated in Spain in the last glacial Maximum 26,600-19,000 years ago.

Not necessarilly from Spanish, at least some part of Berber R1b belongs to the Middle Eastern/African branch V88. I also know that some North Africans have U152 and DF27 which looks rather European-introduced

[Fire Haired]

Dark haired Near Easterners you are talking about were in Europe as early as 5500 - 5000 BC and were mostly G2a, E1b, I2(?) from what we know today.
I would be very careful of saying about much blonder Europe years ago and very blonde Gauls.

I disagree alot with what i said in this thread it stinks when u change ur opinon then u cant edit ur thread. I do think Europe would have had more fair hair before farming spread and less red and dark hair. The reason is the connection with Paleoithic European North in globe13 test and other tests and its connection with the distribution of fair hair and eyes. There is no doubt Europea has gotten tanner overall since the spread of farmers starting about 9,000ybp. So much of Europeans ancestry is from them. But i dont know there could be so many answers for why fair hair and eyes matches so well with Paleolithic European aust group north Euro. I am saying there is a possibility before the spread of farming Iberia had more fair hair and eyes but probably almost no red hair. Red hair in west Europe obviously was spread by Germanic Italo Celts (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?93100-Germanic-Italo-Celts) with R1b1a2a1a L11(my haplogroup and hair color) starting 5,000ybp. Red hair is distributed in all of Europe but only at 1% or more in R1b1a2a1a Germanic Italo Celtic dominated areas and volga Russia. u should just read my origin of red hair (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair) it probably first went over 1% in Russia 12,000-20,000ybp but originated in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp. With what i can see there is almost no way anyone in Iberia before Celts arrived had over 1% red hair but i might be wrong.



Thousand and thousands of years ago Berber group didn't existed, Europe had also the different definition that time - divided into rather distant group of farmers and hunter-gatherers.

6,000 years ago almost all Europeans were farmers. Look at la Brana (7,000ybp hunter gather north Spain) farming had been spreading in that area for at the most 1,000 years in globe13 test he was still dominated by Paleoithic hunter gather European north euro 71% in globe13 test but had pretty good amount of Mediterranean they had already started to inter marry with farmers and u can see pretty big traces of north euro in farmer aust dna. So eventulley they mixed and everyone became farmers which is why North Euro and med are so popular in Europe today. What doesnt make sense to me is Sardine people who have nearlly identical globe13 results to Neloithic samples they have 71% MEd!!! but they have white skin and look totally European the farmers probably did to like the hunter gathers. But if med is not European why are they pale like the hunter gathers. Why when technicality average European is half European half mid eastern do some groups like Germans have 40% yellow hair which is almost non existent in mid easterns and why are all europeans pale skinned. Who were the farmers because their results have way more med than any mid easterns they are more like Europeans who have more med than mid easterns overall closest to Iberian and mainly Sardine.



We don't know it, that's right.

That is why i said maybe i doubt it too defintley the red hair.



They helped to resettle the Europe but there were many others refugia as well.

Ture but they were defintley the most major




Not necessarilly from Spanish, at least some part of Berber R1b belongs to the Middle Eastern/African branch V88. I also know that some North Africans have U152 and DF27 which looks rather European-introduced

Ur right i could no get the subclades but R1b1c is not under R1b1a2 M269. So the most likley possibility's is under western European Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 or very popular mid eastern R1b1a2a L239 (20-30% in Antolia, caucus, and IRaq). So Spanish may be responsibly for their extra European palness they also have some I2a1a M26 and probably some more Iberian Y DNA. I dont have any records for how popular their red hair is u know Canelo Alvarez (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSa%25C3 %25BAl_%25C3%2581lvarez&ei=bLc3UqrcKsfiqAG9v4HACg&usg=AFQjCNHUBlUEIAsw5oaxCPnkL97YVnVz7Q&sig2=gS-AIU0rgwPK1h5_2qeMTg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) he gets his red hair from his Spanish side he might be 100%. Red hair is 1-3% in northern Spain. If the red hair is extremely extremely extremely rare Iberia is a possibly source. But even wikpedia said they are known for fair hair and eyes so if it is so noticeably doubt it is from IBerians who have very little. So i though Germans are almost defintley not the soucre, I guess ancient Gaulsin France, alps, north Italy, and central Europe were described ofentlly has having fair hair and eyes. But if u look at modern percentages those areas don't have more than Spain so i doubt Gauls are a source either. I really doubt Greeks are a source same with Romans Iyllrians(Yugoslavia), Thracians, Dacians all the diff groups of Europeans around the medtreaen in the iron age and roman era and middle ages.

So i was thinking the only possibly source is that in modern day western Europe there used to be a very fair haired people. Today France and Spain are very dark haired. But when did those people live and all that stuff it is a mystery the only possible explanation but it sounds crazy is the H1,H3, U5b1, and V migration into north africa from Iberia starting about 20,000ybo

[Anglojew]

It's indigenous to Hamitic people and was once much more widespread (the ancient Libyans were known to be very fair) but due to admixture from elsewhere is now only found in isolated pockets.

[Fire Haired]

It's indigenous to Hamitic people and was once much more widespread (the ancient Libyans were known to be very fair) but due to admixture from elsewhere is now only found in isolated pockets.

I am sure that is partley true but it still has a European source.

[Anglojew]

I am sure that is partley true but it still has a European source.

I don't agree. I think the opposite is true eg Europeans Came from North Africa and the Black Sea/Caucasus regions.

[Smeagol]

I am sure that is partley true but it still has a European source.

Must be very ancient then. Before historical times, because there were red, and blonde haired North Africans in antiquity.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If you look at ancient mtdna instead of y-dna the pattern seems to be more likely that spain and most of europe actually came from north africa. mtdna of course doesn't move around so quick so is probably a better thing to go off.

However I would not go too crazy with migration theories as most of them are not backed by archaeology. Only thing we know for sure is around 20k years ago iberia pushed heavily into north africa, in that respect. There's many thousands of years we are not sure what happened, though.

Most of the crap, though, seriously, is just history. We know which people are more ancient, and for middle east and med. invariably they don't look anything like arabs or blacks. We also know arabs and west africans are a new phenomenon, they are not the genesis of anything or ancient peoples at all! Pygmies in africa and south india are ancient peoples but then have been on the decline all through written history.

[Hayalet]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdcQ3I8Y0dkjpybWOAJaxPDy4VQ1B4b XZdey8T0H3Ro33u0t1o
I think you forgot these two:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CTB6wEBV7c4/UPCTYZtgMDI/AAAAAAABYb8/DD_T3yibFH0/s1600/berberchildwh1.jpg

[Anglojew]

Yes, people seem confused about this. Europe maintained it's fairness due to geographic isolation better than North Africa and the Middle-East but there have always been fair caucasians in both areas historically (at least going back 10,000 years) we can see migration patters in Haplogroup migrations although obviously other mutations occured in pigmentation also

http://www.kerchner.com/images/dna/ydna_migrationmap_(FTDNA2006).jpg

[daedal1]

I don't agree. I think the opposite is true eg Europeans Came from North Africa and the Black Sea/Caucasus regions.

Not Necessarily. See Page 22.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2012_Patterson_AncientAdmixture_Genetics.pdf

North Europeans (r1) would have split off from p, just as native american q would have (somewhere in central/s. asia). The main differences would be that the ancestors of the native americans acquired more maternal east eurasian ancestry. In the case of Sardinians/Levantines, Levantines would have likely acquired more foreign elements, such as additional SSA, gedrosia, etc. causing them to drift from Sardinians. So, incidentally Sardinians and North Europeans would end up being closer, but that's only due to the pred. west eurasian roots of both North Europeans and Sardinians.

The original north africans would have probably looked similar to sardinians. See the connections between Sardinians and Mozabites. Not Blond.

[Fire Haired]

Not Necessarily. See Page 22.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2012_Patterson_AncientAdmixture_Genetics.pdf

North Europeans (r1) would have split off from p, just as native american q would have (somewhere in central/s. asia). The main differences would be that the ancestors of the native americans acquired more maternal east eurasian ancestry. In the case of Sardinians/Levantines, Levantines would have likely acquired more foreign elements, such as additional SSA, gedrosia, etc. causing them to drift from Sardinians. So, incidentally Sardinians and North Europeans would end up being closer, but that's only due to the pred. west eurasian roots of both North Europeans and Sardinians.

The original north africans would have probably looked similar to sardinians. See the connections between Sardinians and Mozabites. Not Blond.

Who knows how legit that map is and it doesnt really tell anything anyways. ORigin of European palenss (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)). All the diff pale thing sin Europeasns exists in mid easterns like Assyrians and Samartians hwo in globe13 had 0% of the only Unque European group and the only to be in pre farming Europe called North Euro. So probably almost no European blood period. All of European paleness probably orignated in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp they became more popular in European ancestors and maybe some mid eastern groups like Geograins.

Paleness was not connected in Europe and the mid east 10,000ybp I dont get what ur saying. Also mid easterns and north africans get their darkness from themsleves they have always bee like that Europeans are the ones that changed. In globe13 Technicalley Afghan are more related to mainly blonde Finnish than they are to Arabs. and Iranians and most mid easterns period are more related to Europeans than north africans. But why arent europeans as dark as North africans and mid easterns do u get what i am saying. There is no explanation of inter marriage with a dark pigmented people to explain why both north Africans and mid easterns are so dark.

[The King, I am]

Because in the past the original e1b1b berbers mixed with nordics, romans, greeks, Phoenicians, Old Turks, Sami people, and so on... It's in their DNA.

[Fire Haired]

Because in the past the original e1b1b berbers mixed with nordics, romans, greeks, Phoenicians, Old Turks, Sami people, and so on... It's in their DNA.

What subclade of E1b1b are Berbers apart of? They are mainly in E1b1b M123. Is there any evidence in DNA studies of Berbers that they have ancestry from Nordic's(Swedish, Norwegian, Danish?), Romans(central Italians, Italians, or later people in their empire), Phoenicians(southwest Asians), Old Turks(Anatolians), Sami, etc. The hair color percentages in certain areas of Europe has probably changed overtime. Ancient DNA, mummies, and writings has shown an extinct European ethnicity in the bronze age had mainly blonde hair and at least some red hair, Y DNA R1a1a1b2 Z93, around 30-40% mtDNA U2e, U5a, and U4 and the rest T(almost all T1), H, K, J, I, W. They spread Indo Iranian and Tocharian languages(both are Indo European) into Asia and descend from Yamna culture which existed around Russia and Ukraine from about 4,300-5,600ybp. I am not saying their the source but anything is possible.


There is only one hair color sample from a Neolithic farming European. Otzie the iceman in the alps from about 5,300ybp actually he was from early copper age but his Y DNA G2a2a2 L91, mtDNA K1f, and autosomal DNA results show he is genetically no different from Neolithic European samples so far. He had dark brown hair and brown eyes. He and a Neolithic farmer Gok4 from Funnel Beaker Sweden dated to about 4,500-5,500 years old had nearly identical results in Dodecade autosomal DNA tests globe13, K12b, and K7b and almost identical to modern Sardinia people(island west of Italy) who have almost all brown hair and eyes. And these mainly Y DNA G2a farmers dominated at least western Europe during the Neolithic age so I doubt their the source of blonde hair in northwest African Berbers.


I do know of some eye color results from Yama culture in Bulgaria, southern Russia and Ukraine. From 5,000-6,000ybp they had pale skin and much darker eyes than average modern Europeans. That does not represent all people apart of early Indo European? Yamna culture and the very different results from Yamna descendants in bronze age is prove of that. Today that area of Europe is mainly dark eyed. Ancient DNA shows that at least western Europe and probably southeast Europe during the Neolithic was by far mainly dark eyed and brown haired. Autosomal DNA results of Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers(descended from Palaeolithic Europeans ancestors arrived well over 10,000ybp possibly over 30,000ybp).

Show that the "North European" in modern Europeans comes from them. The distribution of "North European" is it is highest around the Baltic sea, Russia, and Scandinavia(including Finland and Karle). It might be connected with fair hair and eyes in Europe but possibly certain people mainly descended from hunter gathers had mainly brown hair and some mainly blonde hair. Maybe migrations later in the copper and bronze age by mainly blonde haired descendants of hunter gathers spread and that is why today "North Euro" seems connected with fair hair and eyes. Because Sami in far northern Sweden and Norway and also in Karlie have possibly the most "North Euro" and are by far mainly dark haired and eyed.

I think that the people who spread farming in Europe and probably partly replaced native hunter gathers. And are connected with "Meditreaen", Southwest Asian, and west Asian, Y DNA G2a, E1b1b1, J1, J2, and T were almost only dark haired and eyed. It is debatable what certain pre Neolithic hunter gathers in Europe hair and eye color percentages was it is possibly they had mainly fair hair and eyes or mainly dark hair and eyes and it could have varied in different parts of Europe.

People mainly descended from hunter gathers probably made big migrations in Europe and Asia during copper and bronze age. At least some were Indo Europeans coming out of Russia and Ukraine. Definitely spreading Y DNA R1a1a1b1 Z283 in eastern, central, and northern Europe and R1a1a1b2 Z93 in Asia(ancient DNA has proven they were mainly blonde haired(Important they had probably over 1% red hair) and light eyed and had a lot of typical mtDNA haplogroups of European hunter gathers). The people who spread Germanic, Italic, and Celtic languages in western Europe starting about 5,000ybp possibly also spread Y DNA R1b1a2a1a L11, red hair(raised above at least 1%), maybe also raised fair hair and eyes, raised hunter gather and west Asian ancestry in western Europe.

I think there is definitely some type of European ancestry in Kablye and other northwest Africans. That explains the pale skin, non dark hair and eyes. But it is really hard to say who it came from definitely not Neolithic farming western Europeans(or Iberians from any period), possibly pre Neolithic hunter gathers, or bronze age, iron age, and modern western and central Europeans(Germanic's and Celts(not Gauls or Iberians). When Europeans ancestors went from being pigmented like north Africans and Middle eastern's is also important to know and extremely hard to figure out. Once there is huge DNA studies on Kablye I think the mystery will be solved.

[Arcadefire]

Blondism happens due to climate adaptation. While white people from Europe have the largest population of blondies, you can find people with yellow hair at otehr parts of the world. A Berber with blonde hair still looks like a Berber and not of Norwegian or a Swede.

[Fire Haired]

Blondism happens due to climate adaptation. While white people from Europe have the largest population of blondies, you can find people with yellow hair at otehr parts of the world. A Berber with blonde hair still looks like a Berber and not of Norwegian or a Swede.

You cant assume that is the origin of blonde hair. The genes behind blonde hair or just fair hair including light brown hair have basically been figured out. Berber blonde hair is connected with European blonde hair it comes from the same source.