Lost: The European Union's Political Animal [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Skomand

07-23-2013, 06:41 PM

The following is from a German blogger on Lithuania. He has a Lithuanian wife and has visited Lithuania once or twice a year in the past.
At the end he says it is in the stars when he will visit Lithuania again: it is going down the drain.

Nach ein paar negativen Erlebnissen im Winterurlaub in Litauen… haben wir nun im Sommer die Fortsetzung in verschiedenen Bereichen des täglichen Lebens erleben müssen. Vielleicht liegt es auch daran, dass ich im Winter-Urlaub damit begonnen habe, gewisse Dinge mal mit anderen Augen zu sehen…

Da heisst es immer „Service-Wüste Deutschland“… dann möchte ich mal wissen, auf welchem Platz hier Litauen landet…!? Egal ob Restaurant, Ferienwohnung, Taxi, Technik-Reparatur oder Krankenhaus! Am liebsten die Hände in den Taschen lassen, aber die große Rechnung präsentieren wollen. Freundlichkeit ist ebenfalls ein Fremdwort geworden… und die Preisentwicklung lässt einen wundern, wie Einheimische hier das Leben meistern können.

Ich habe noch nie so viele Leute in den Mülltonnen wühlen sehen, wie in d...iesem Jahr… und umso schöner fand ich es zu sehen, dass bessergestellte Leute Ihre „schlechten“ Lebensmittel AUF die Tonnen stellen, damit es die Bedürftigen gleich sehen.

Natürlich gibt es auch immer wieder positive Ausnahmen, nur leider immer seltener! Ich kann diejenigen sehr gut verstehen, welche Ihren Wohnsitz in Litauen hatten und aus Litauen wieder nach Deutschland rückgewandert sind.
Für mich persönlich hat Litauen viel an Charme und Reiz verloren, dieses Land schafft sich selber ab und wenn sich nicht einiges zum positiven ändert, werden sicherlich irgendwann auch die Touristen wieder weniger werden…

Einige hier, werden mich vielleicht nicht verstehen da diese in Litauen vielleicht mehr auf dem Land unterwegs und überwiegend mit Bekannten, Familie und Freunden zusammen sind...!? Wer aber mal 14 Tage nur in der Stadt das tägliche Leben verfolgen kann, der wird meine Erfahrungen vielleicht teilen können...

Das einzigste was mich in Zukunft noch hinziehen wird, wäre Familie, Freunde und die Landschaft… aber wann das nächste mal sein wird, steht noch in den Sternen!

Google translation:

After a few negative experiences during the winter holidays in Lithuania ... we have now in the summer to experience the continuation in various areas of everyday life. Maybe it's because I've started in the winter-holiday times to see certain things with different eyes ...

As it always means "service desert Germany" ... then I'd like to know which place here Lithuanian lands ...? Whether restaurant, apartments, taxi, Repair of equipment or hospital! Prefer to keep their hands in their pockets, but want to present the big bill. Friendliness has also become a foreign word ... and the price development can be a wonder how locals can cope with life here.

I've never seen rummaging in the garbage as many people as in this year ... and even nicer to see it, I found that better-off people your "bad" foods provide the ON tons, so it will see the same need .

Of course there is also always positive exceptions, but unfortunately increasingly rare! I can very well understand those who lived in Lithuania, and are moved back from Lithuania to Germany.
For me personally, Lithuania has lost much of its charm and appeal, this country creates itself from itself and if not for some positive changes, sometime even the tourists will certainly be back less ...

Some here, I might not understand because they are in Lithuania, perhaps more on the country road and mostly with friends, family, and friends together ...? Who but times 14 days is only in the city can follow the daily life will perhaps be able to share my experiences ...

The only thing that will drag me in the future, would be family, friends and the scenery ... but when the next time will be even written in the stars.

Hercus Monte

07-23-2013, 07:07 PM

^ first. what does that have to do with the documentary?

^ second. I don't know who that guy is but I can say that I've never experienced anything of what he is writing about. Sure, we have some problems but we're not Africa, homeless people are not something you see on every corner. and I've never seen anyone leaving leftovers for the homeless.

he's right about the smiling bit, we're not particularly keen on smiling but he's dead wrong about tourism, since tourism is growing, not declining.

Skomand

07-23-2013, 09:02 PM

Hercus Monte

07-23-2013, 09:29 PM

He doesn't say that tourist numbers are declining now, but he predicts a decline if things continue the way he sees them. It's not lacking smiles he is complaining about. It's the attitude of Lithuanians in towns in general: high prices for poor services.
In the past he was very excited about the country and maintains a site: http://www.litauen-urlauber.de/. So he should know what he is talking about.again, I can only say that this doesn't reflect my impression of of lithuanians. I think our attitude is getting better...also, I've yet to have any problem with customer service.

07-23-2013, 09:57 PM

In the video granny at 18:40 made me remember something that one of the Independence activists has once said:

- Blogas vokietis yra tiesiog blogas vokietis, o blogas lietuvis - ne lietuvis (A bad German is just a bad German. A bad Lithuanian is not a Lithuanian) :D

Hercus Monte

07-23-2013, 10:26 PM

In the video granny at 18:40 made me remember something that one of the Independence activist has once said:

- Blogas vokietis yra tiesiog blogas vokietis, o blogas lietuvis - ne lietuvis (A bad German is just a bad German. A bad Lithuanian is not a Lithuanian) :D
reminds me of the 'true lithuanians', Panka and Cekulis :D

07-24-2013, 12:43 AM

I haven't heard of Cekulis. Panka should lose some weight - I guess, he's a bad Lithuanian... lol

______________________________________

The part about the railway track was just absurd. :/There was a normal road connecting those people to the city too - but it was 5km longer than just going straight through the railway, so the inhabitants just preferred to "cut the corner".

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 12:48 AM

I haven't heard of Cekulis. Panka should lose some weight - I guess, he's a bad Lithuanian... lol

Cekutis is one of Pankas' ''compatriots''. he did an interview with Rasa tapiniene and Viktoras Diawara... silly people.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 01:13 AM

Has Lithuanian society adopted the European norms or hasn't been able to break with the Soviet past? This shocking documentary intensively explores the soul of Lithuanian society. Lithuania "imports" all the best policy practices from the EU, but transforms them and uses them as weapons in the theater of political fights for the influence. Lithuania looks like European country from outside, but hides the mentality of the slaves.

Lithuania was never in the sphere of western European influence to the same extent as central or western European countries. One shouldn't expect a magical transformation of the society in the period of 10-15 years after entering the European Union.

The documentary may present an accurate story on Lithuanian society but it looks one-sided to me.
A similar documentary can prepared on any country discussing different kinds of social problems. I can relate to many social issues discussed in the documentary. Besides, Lithuanians are critical and judgemental of their society and country which is not unique to them. It's the same in many former countries.

After a few negative experiences during the winter holidays in Lithuania ... we have now in the summer to experience the continuation in various areas of everyday life. Maybe it's because I've started in the winter-holiday times to see certain things with different eyes ...

As it always means "service desert Germany" ... then I'd like to know which place here Lithuanian lands ...? Whether restaurant, apartments, taxi, Repair of equipment or hospital! Prefer to keep their hands in their pockets, but want to present the big bill. Friendliness has also become a foreign word ... and the price development can be a wonder how locals can cope with life here.

I've never seen rummaging in the garbage as many people as in this year ... and even nicer to see it, I found that better-off people your "bad" foods provide the ON tons, so it will see the same need .

Of course there is also always positive exceptions, but unfortunately increasingly rare! I can very well understand those who lived in Lithuania, and are moved back from Lithuania to Germany.
For me personally, Lithuania has lost much of its charm and appeal, this country creates itself from itself and if not for some positive changes, sometime even the tourists will certainly be back less ...

Some here, I might not understand because they are in Lithuania, perhaps more on the country road and mostly with friends, family, and friends together ...? Who but times 14 days is only in the city can follow the daily life will perhaps be able to share my experiences ...

The only thing that will drag me in the future, would be family, friends and the scenery ... but when the next time will be even written in the stars.

Lithuania lost its charm in comparison to which time? To the mid 90s when people treated all foreigners well because the country was closed for a long time and foreigners were unknown to the them?

The author of the text could be one of those people thinking he or she could come to a country in which the cost of living is lower enjoying the services and hospitality for penny worth. Migrants or tourists complaining about the countries in which they settle is not uncommon.

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 01:27 AM

Lithuania was never in the sphere of western European influence to the same extent as central or western European countries. One shouldn't expect a magical transformation of the society in the period of 10-15 years after entering the European Union.

I would dare say that Lithuania hasn't been under western influence since 1795....
of course the cultural differences between east and west only depended after the occupation, since soviet union went to a completely different direction compared to the west.

The documentary may present an accurate story on Lithuanian society but it looks one-sided to me.
A similar documentary can prepared on any country discussing different kinds of social problems. I can relate to many social issues discussed in the documentary. Besides, Lithuanians are critical and judgemental of their society and country which is not unique to them. It's the same in many former countries.

well that's really the point, there were a lot of great things happening in 2012 as well but 2012 was the year a couple of very important events took place (like the Venckiene paedophilia story).

Besides, Lithuanians are critical and judgemental of their society and country which is not unique to them. It's the same in many former countries.

sometimes, the judgemental and critical views stop all rationality, a slight problem some members of society tend to have, to be more precise, people residing in rural areas, with the lowest family income of up to 1,500 litas, the unemployed, people living off their pensions, blue collar workers, people of Polish descent and those favourable of the right-wing politics.
source (http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/45709/survey-high-income-young-urban-dwellers-feel-happiest-in-lithuania-201345709/)

Temujin

07-24-2013, 01:49 AM

I would dare say that Lithuania hasn't been under western influence 1795....
of course the cultural differences between east and west only depended after the occupation, since soviet union went to a completely different direction compared to the west.

I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it. Some things were borrowed from Teutonic knights and the Prussians, but there was little western influence on Lithuanian society throughout their entire history. Not to the same extent as other European countries despite many cities were subject to the Magderburg Law.

well that's really the point, there were a lot of great things happening in 2012 as well but 2012 was the year a couple of very important events took place (like the Venckiene paedophilia story).

I don't know about the events you are referring to. I cannot imagine a single paedophilia story can change the society. The paedophilia stories are discussed in western countries on a regular basis. Orphans were sexually exploited in orphanages. A ring of paedophiles uncovered in some countries etc.

sometimes, the judgemental and critical views stop all rationality, a slight problem some members of society tend to have, to be more precise, people residing in rural areas, with the lowest family income of up to 1,500 litas, the unemployed, people living off their pensions, blue collar workers, people of Polish descent and those favourable of the right-wing politics.

Many people migrate in western countries for better opportunities realising home was not as bad. The judgemental attitudes are often irrational.

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 02:07 AM

I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it. Some things were borrowed from Teutonic knights and the Prussians, but there was little western influence on Lithuanian society throughout their entire history. Not to the same extent as other European countries despite many cities were subject to the Magderburg Law.
you'd be surprised.
however the period between the world wars is more important, since lithuania minor played an important role smetonas' lithuania.

I don't know about the events you are referring to. I cannot imagine a single paedophilia story can change the society. The paedophilia stories are discussed in western countries on a regular basis. Orphans were sexually exploited in orphanages. A ring of paedophiles uncovered in some countries etc.

the entire country was divided. it was massive hysteria for 4 years.
wer're a small country, it doesn't take much to get us hipped up.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 02:21 AM

you'd be surprised.

The culture and mentality of people evolved over a long period of time. Not to mention the history Lithuania became part of Lithuanian national identity. I can only think of Ukraine and Russia having less western influence than Lithuania. But okay, amuse me. :)

07-24-2013, 03:17 AM

Okay, amuse me. :)Oh boy, where do I even start... I think we already talked about it with RussiaPrussia a while ago :rolleyes:

I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it. Some things were borrowed from Teutonic knights and the Prussians, but there was little western influence on Lithuanian society throughout their entire history. Not to the same extent as other European countries despite many cities were subject to the Magderburg Law.
How about the local folk singing types having been almost entirely replaced by the Western European style in 16th century among Samogitians and making a big impact on Aukstaitians too (although in Aukstaitija the local types managed to remain in parallel).
How about nearly all folk dance tunes being Western? Polkas, Cadrilles, Waltzes, Ländlers... while Russian Karobushkas are very unpopular. I mean stuff like this (http://youtu.be/2FH18ORh3Vs?t=53s), for all that matters, it could be Portugal, Georgia, Turkey or whatever - to me it is utterly and completely alien and exotic. Same about this (http://youtu.be/8UPSXlbEd3c).
None of it was related to Catholicism.

How about the cuisine? I look at this thread and nearly all dishes I see are utterly and completely unimpressive - they're well known in Lithuania too. Even Lithuania's national dish Cepelinai is nothing original:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/42128-Swedish-cuisine?p=1144348&viewfull=1#post1144348

The bottom line is: saying that Lithuania has little Western influence in comparison to Central European countries is one thing and you may very well be right with that one. Then again Lithuania isn't usually considered a Central European country.
However, saying that there was no Western influence since Mindaugas' times is something else altogether and completely off the mark. I think that you are forgetting that a large part of Lithuanians lived in what is not a present day Lithuania. The influences usually came through them.

P.S. I'm pretty sure the ethnicity field bellow your profile said "Russian" a while ago. Those sneaky Lithuanians, eh? Well, it ain't Lithuanians who are changing their nicks like socks here :lol:

Temujin

07-24-2013, 03:33 AM

Oh boy, where do I even start... I think we already talked about it with RussiaPrussia a while ago :rolleyes:

I don't know what you have been through with RussiaPrussia. Do you want talk about it? :)

How about the local folk singing types having been almost entirely replaced by the Western European style in 16th century among Samogitians and making a big impact on Aukstaitians too (although in Aukstaitija the local types managed to remain in parallel).

The folk songs I listened to in this section don't sound western in my ears.

How about nearly all folk dance tunes being Western? Polkas, Cadrilles, Waltzes, Ländlers... while Russian Karobushkas are very unpopular. I mean stuff like this (http://youtu.be/2FH18ORh3Vs?t=53s), for all that matters, it could be Portugal, Georgia, Turkey or whatever - to me it is utterly and completely alien and exotic. Same about this (http://youtu.be/8UPSXlbEd3c).
None of it was related to Catholicism.

Which countries don't have the Polkas, Waltzes and Cadrilles ? Even non-European Russia has them.

How about cuisine? I look at this thread and nearly all dishes I see are utterly and completely unimpressive - they're well known in Lithuania too. Even Lithuania's national dish Cepelinai is nothing original:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/42128-Swedish-cuisine?p=1144348&viewfull=1#post1144348

What's western in Lithuanian cuisine? Potatos are truly western , I guess. :cool:

The bottom line is that saying that Lithuania has little Western influence in comparison to Central European countries is one thing and you may very well be right with that one. Then again Lithuania isn't usually considered a Central European country.

Exactly what I wrote. Lithuania has lesser western influence than central European countries.

However, saying that there was no Western influence since Mindaugas' times is something else altogether and completely off the mark. I think that you are forgetting that a large part of Lithuanians lived in what is not a present day Lithuania. The influences usually came through them.

I mentioned catholicism and contacts with Teutonic Knight and later eastern Prussians. I never wrote Lithuania had lesser western influence than Russia. Many Russians don't consider themselves as Europeans anyway. So, there is no point comparing Russia and Lithuania. However, Lithuania had the least western influence in comparison to most European countries including neighbouring Latvia and Estonia without exaggeration. You should know this better.

P.S. I'm pretty sure the ethnicity field bellow your profile said "Russian" a while ago. Those sneaky Lithuanians, eh? Well, it ain't Lithuanians who are changing their nicks like socks here :lol:

I never had 'Russian' in my profile. You are mixing me up with somebody else. :p

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 03:37 AM

How about cuisine? I look at this thread and nearly all dishes I see are utterly and completely unimpressive - they're well known in Lithuania too. Even Lithuania's national dish Cepelinai is nothing original:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/42128-Swedish-cuisine?p=1144348&viewfull=1#post1144348

Cepelinai, kugelis, vėdarai, balandėliai, spirgučiai, šakotis, žemaičių blynai etc. If I didn't know any better I would have thought it's lithuanian... :)

I should also add that high cultural traditions are also fairly western, all architecture(not surprising since almost everything was designed by Italian, French, German etc. architects) art. we even had opera before London or Paris did.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 03:48 AM

I should also add that high cultural traditions are also fairly western, all architecture(not surprising since almost everything was designed by Italian, French, German etc. architects) art. we even had opera before London or Paris did.

Gothical and neo-Gothical architectural style came with Catholicism. St Petersburg is nicknamed as Venice of the north. It's a very western for the Russian cities.

Most Lithuanians didn't live in the cities till 1920s anyway. Other ethnicities were the majority in Kaunas and Vilnius who planned and built the cities. Klaipeda was built by eastern Prussians, for example.

So, young generation Lithuanians want to be seen more western than they are? That's interesting. :)

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 03:53 AM

Gothical and neo-Gothical style of building came with Catholicism. St Petersburg is nicknamed as Venice of the north. It's a very western for the Russian cities.

is that not western?
talking of S. Petersburg, I thing we both know why it's more western than the rest of Russia.

Most Lithuanians didn't live in the cities till 1920s anyway. Other ethnicities were the majority in Kaunas and Vilnius who planned and built the cities. Klaipeda was built by eastern Prussians, for example.

about 80% to be more precise(not counting prussians), of modern day lithuanians come out of villages.

talking of prussians, there is a reason why I mentioned Lithuania minor since it played a huge part in the formation of our national contentiousness.

So, young generation Lithuanians want to be seen more western than they are? That's interesting. :)
not really a big concern to me, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. you said that the western influence is negligible, I just wanted to point out that it's noticeable.

07-24-2013, 04:03 AM

So, young generation Lithuanians want to be seen more western than they are? That's interesting. :)So, young generation Slavs fail to notice the difference between: "Lithuanians have not experienced any western influence between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it." and "only Ukraine and Russia have less western influence than Lithuania"? That's interesting. Does Belarus have more then? :)

Temujin

07-24-2013, 04:04 AM

is that not western?
talking of S. Petersburg, I thing we both know why it's more western than the rest of Russia.

Western or not western was not in the discussion. It was rather the degree of western influence in comparison to other countries. Russia is excluded.

not really a big concern to me, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. you said that the western influence is negligible, I just wanted to point out that it's noticeable.

You misunderstood me. I didn't write or mean that the western influence was negligible in Lithuania but rather less than in most European countries including central and former eastern block countries which is true. Some of you seemed to be touched by the fact. You are not sure about yourself? :)

07-24-2013, 04:06 AM

You misunderstood me. I didn't state the western influence was negligible but rather less than most European countries including central and former eastern block countries which is true. Some of you seemed to be touched by the fact. You are not sure about yourself? :)There was no room for misunderstanding. You explicitly stated that there was no Western influence other than Catholicism. You are not sure about what you yourself wrote just several posts ago? :)

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 04:09 AM

You misunderstood me. I didn't write or mean that the western influence was negligible in Lithuania but rather less than in most European countries including central and former eastern block countries which is true. Some of you seemed to be touched by the fact. You are not sure about yourself? :)
define most( I should add that I don't consider countries that came out of the Russian empire, including Finland, to be more western that us, culturally at least)

Temujin

07-24-2013, 04:14 AM

There was no room for misunderstanding. You explicitly stated that there was no Western influence other than Catholicism. You are not sure about what you yourself wrote just several posts ago? :)

This is what I wrote

I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it. Some things were borrowed from Teutonic knights and the Prussians, but there was little western influence on Lithuanian society throughout their entire history. Not to the same extent as other European countries despite many cities were subject to the Magderburg Law.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?87407-Lost-The-European-Union-s-Political-Animal&p=1769133&viewfull=1#post1769133

Elaboration.

Catholicism and everything that came with it means the Gothical architectural style. Possibly Latin alphabet.
Contacts with Teutonic knight sand eastern Prussians - castles, warfare armour, technological advances of the time. Contacts with eastern Prussians - the fashion and dances which you considered as folk . Possibly cousine.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 04:16 AM

define most( I should add that I don't consider countries that came out of the Russian empire, including Finland, to be more western that us, culturally at least)

Do you want me to paste the definition of the term 'most' from the dictionary? Or do you want me to list the countries?

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 04:18 AM

Do you want me to paste the definition of the term 'most' from the dictionary? Or do you want me to least the countries?

Okay, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia.

those four I disagree with. Finland is a little bit of a grey zone for me since it wasn't part of the Warsaw pact.

glass

07-24-2013, 04:26 AM

I would dare say that Lithuania hasn't been under western influence since 1795....
of course the cultural differences between east and west only depended after the occupation, since soviet union went to a completely different direction compared to the west.
we also have some histrorians who thinks if mongols were not conquered us, Russia would be typical european country like Germany or France, though they are negligible minority and not taken seriously.
Anyway Lithuania was lithuanian only at every begining, GRand Duchy was rather slavic state, even shift to Poland was shift from one slavs to another slavs, or you poles are not slavs?;)

Oh boy, where do I even start... I think we already talked about it with RussiaPrussia a while ago :rolleyes:

How about the local folk singing types having been almost entirely replaced by the Western European style in 16th century among Samogitians and making a big impact on Aukstaitians too (although in Aukstaitija the local types managed to remain in parallel).
How about nearly all folk dance tunes being Western? Polkas, Cadrilles, Waltzes, Ländlers... while Russian Karobushkas are very unpopular. I mean stuff like this (http://youtu.be/2FH18ORh3Vs?t=53s), for all that matters, it could be Portugal, Georgia, Turkey or whatever - to me it is utterly and completely alien and exotic. Same about this (http://youtu.be/8UPSXlbEd3c).
None of it was related to Catholicism.

How about cuisine? I look at this thread and nearly all dishes I see are utterly and completely unimpressive - they're well known in Lithuania too. Even Lithuania's national dish Cepelinai is nothing original:

low class always follow upper class style, in Lithuania case lithuaninas followed germans, jewish and polish stylies of life, because lithuanian is rural backwards, german is urban citizen. Settlers in lithuanian towns came from west, so their influence. Russian people preserved their own style and customs to some extent so they look special around other eastern europens, because they were only people who kept state independant. You are like light version of Karl who thinks he is western and nordic because westerners and nordics raided his country and raped women in his country. kinda sad if this opinion is becoming mainstream in baltic states

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 04:34 AM

Anyway Lithuania was lithuanian only at every begining,

baltic, lithuania and latvia hadn't split yet.

GRand Duchy was rather slavic state, even shift to Poland was shift from one slavs to another slavs, or you poles are not slavs?;)

quite, after Belarus and Ukraine were conquered, the majority of GDOL became slavic, but the upper class was still Baltic, until the union with poland.
how is this related to ''westerness''?

glass

07-24-2013, 04:50 AM

quite, after Belarus and Ukraine were conquered, the majority of GDOL became slavic, but the upper class was still Baltic, until the union with poland.
how is this related to ''westerness''?
dynasty may be, but if lithuanians were proper upper class they would populate towns and used their own language in administration. Grand duchy was slavic state with dynasty of foreign oirigin, while ordinary lithuanians were not differ from ordinary lets say belarusians on social ladder
i meant lithuania was "slavic" even before 1795
anyway there is no such thing as lithuanian customs or lithuanian culture, 90% of what you have you borrowd from east or west.
do you understand difference between west and western sphere of influence/colony? Since west is now in better shape it is more prestious to have western influence, so balts (of any level education or intellectual capabilities not just retarded kids) like to mention western and skip or ignore eastern influence.

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 04:56 AM

dynasty may be, but if lithuanians were proper upper class they would populate towns and used their own language in administration. Grand duchy was slavic state with dynasty of foreign oirigin, while ordinary lithuanians were not differ from ordinary lets say belarusians on social ladder
depends on the century...

anyway there is no such thing as lithuanian customs or lithuanian culture, 90% of what you have you borrowd from east or west.

....and?
90% is quite an overstatement.

Since west is now in better shape it is more prestious to have western influence, so balts (of any level education or intellectual capabilities not just retarded kids) like to mention western and skip or ignore eastern influence.

yes, of course. we pretend to be a pretty little utopia....

you have not watched the documentary, and don't even understand the content of this discussion, do you?

Temujin

07-24-2013, 05:30 AM

I don't want to open another can of worm but Justas is inaccurate on conquests and proportions of ethnicities in the GDL.

07-24-2013, 06:46 AM

Russian people preserved their own style and customs to some extent so they look special around other eastern europens, because they were only people who kept state independant.LMAO and that's why Lithuanian folklore is considered as more archaic than Russian by scholars? You really know not what you're talking about. Having become a subject to Judeo-Christian religion and the aforementioned raids by Mongols has eradicated far more indigenous traditions in Russia than contacts with Westerners have in Lithuania. Wanna discuss this further? :)

low class always follow upper class style, in Lithuania case lithuaninas followed germans, jewish and polish stylies of lifeIn what way have Lithuanians followed the Jewish style? Do tell, I'm all ears. As far as I'm aware there's not a single tradition that was taken over from them directly. Those that reached the region via Christianity are, of course, another issue.

You are like light version of Karl who thinks he is western and nordic because westerners and nordics raided his country and raped women in his country. kinda sad if this opinion is becoming mainstream in baltic statesYou're like a severe version of RussiaPrussia who not only often struggles to sound coherent but also has trouble to comprehend what others are writing. Kinda sad that this mental-deficiency is becoming mainstream among... nah, I won't judge the whole Russia based on two specimens :p
FIY neither Nordics, nor Westerners have raped Lithuania like they did with Estonia-the-beautiful.

Your claim that 90% of Lithuanian culture is borrowed means that you know jack about Lithuania in which case you might wanna go do some reading up at wikipedia for the starters instead of coming off as a complete moron in this discussion.

________________________________________

The folk songs I listened to in this section don't sound western in my ears.I personally don't like the particular style that I mentioned earlier, so I haven't posted it in this section.

The particular 16th Century Western European singing tradition that now predominates Samogitia and is common in Aukstaitija too is called "harmoninė funkcinė daugiabalsė muzika" - no idea how to translate the full name, daugiabalsė muzika means "homophonic music":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3subUnkjUHU

Does it not sound like the contemporary Western European folk music? Very possibly. Western Europe, not being particularly conservative, has shed its skin more than once since the 16th century. Still doesn't negate the fact that this singing tradition is not native to the Baltic region and it has come here from the West.

Anyway, show me a Russian example of that style.

the fashion and dances which you considered as folk.In my circle of acquaintances Polkas/Cadrilles/Waltzes/Ländlers are collectively referred to as shit-polkas rather than folk.
Since you mentioned the fashion, it should be pointed out that at least the vests came already during Renaissance, so why wouldn't they be called "folk"?

Which countries don't have the Polkas, Waltzes and Cadrilles ? Even non-European Russia has them.What does it matter if Russia has them stored somewhere safely in the closet? If you go to any Russian folk event it will be neither Polkas, nor, Waltzes, nor Cadrilles that you'll hear. In contrast, in LT they actually happen to be popular - for better or for worse.

What's western in Lithuanian cuisine? Potatos are truly western , I guess. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.pngVery Western indeed - came 'ere all the way from 'Murica, in fact.
I had in mind specific dishes rather than ingredients however. AFAIK neither Cepelinai, nor Šakotis feature prominently in Slavic cuisines. Did they originate in Lithuania? I think not.
Go google Spettekaka & Kroppkakor - remind you of anything?
Anyway, smoked pork sausages came from Germany via Sudovia, ginger breads that are called by locals meduoliai did too, the lovers of dishes featuring meat & potatoes (http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=10975) say that Lithuanian cuisine resembles Prussian one more than the Polish one - which probably tells something about the origin of those dishes, considering that most of them aren't native to Lithuania. I personally am not into that kind of stuff at all, so I can't vouch for it.

Exactly what I wrote. Lithuania has lesser western influence than central European countries.You didn't answer - is Belarus counted into your concept of a central European country? http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.png

But since we're at that, would you mind pointing out when exactly any Lithuanian has claimed to be more Western European influenced than these (http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared//thumb/5/5a/Central_Europe_Regions.png/450px-Central_Europe_Regions.png)? See, I cannot remember so much as one such instance.

However, Lithuania had the least western influence in comparison to most European countries including neighbouring Latvia and Estonia without exaggeration. You should know this better.I do know better [than you] about everything :)
However, I'm not sure what are you trying to say: in absolute amounts, of course, Lithuania has less West/Central European cultural influences than Latvia & Estonia (vocabulary is an excellent indicator of this: 0.5% German loanwords in Lithuanian but >25% in Latvian & Estonian). On the other hand, if what you want to say that Latvia and Estonia have proportionally more Western European influence than Eastern European influence (for the sake of this argument lets say that the Baltics themselves are neither Western European nor Eastern European), your claim would be baseless.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 07:13 AM

FIY neither Nordic, nor Westerners have raped Lithuania like they did with Estonia-the-beautiful.

Lithuanians has had a long lasting sexual affair with Slavs. And a very intense one. :p I don't know which country was influenced more: Estonia by Nordics and Lithuania by Slavs. :rolleyes:

07-24-2013, 07:25 AM

Lithuanians has had a long lasting sexual affair with Slavs. And a very intense one. :p I don't know which country was influenced more: Estonia by Nordics and Lithuania by Slavs. :rolleyes:The particular Lithuanians who had a lion's share of that affair are no longer known as Lithuanians. The last traces of Lithuanian autochtones in Punskas and Gerveciai are dwindling away as we speak. Lithuanian community in Poland has shrunk more than ten times during the past century and that's already the last stage of that shrinkage. Slavicness seems dangerously infectious.

By Lithuanians being discussed in this topic, I assume, we mean the ones who dwell in the contemporary Lithuanian state, so you can take you fantasies about sexual affairs with Balts to some other thread.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 07:45 AM

The particular Lithuanians who had a lion's share of that affair are no longer known as Lithuanians. The last traces of Lithuanian autochtones in Punskas and Gerveciai are dwindling away as we speak. Lithuanian community in Poland has shrunk more than ten times during the past century and that's already the last stage of that shrinkage. Slavicness seems dangerously infectious.

By Lithuanians being discussed in this topic, I assume, we mean the ones who dwell in the contemporary Lithuanian state, so you can take you fantasies about sexual affairs with Balts to some other thread.

I use similar term as you and other user explaining the cultural contacts Balts and Slavs had. Don't indulge yourself thinking someone is fantasising. The culture in contemporary Lithuania stemmed from the past. It didn't appear out thin air. Ruthenian, Polish and Russian cultures influenced Lithuanian culture over the history more than any other cultures. You will be dishonest denying it.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 07:46 AM

double post.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 07:51 AM

I do know better [than you] about everything :)

Most of your comments were boring to read as it's obvious you have had little exposure to the Russian culture. The great Russian writers, artists, classical musicians and philosophers were influenced by Europeans. The origins of higher culture is in Europe. Polkas are not popular, whereas Waltzes and Cadrilles were very popular in Russia . It was prestigious to speak French among upper class in the 19th century, whereas in Lithuania it was Polish. Germans had very strong presence in Russia too. I even conceded that the Russian culture was less influenced than Lithuanian which is debatable, as most Russians don't care if they are seen as European or not European.

Anyway, the comment I am quoting made me laugh. A lot. :)

Temujin

07-24-2013, 08:11 AM

You didn't answer - is Belarus counted into your concept of a central European country?

I forgot. I don't see Belarus as a central European country.

07-24-2013, 08:34 AM

I use similar term as you and other user explaining the cultural contacts Balts and Slavs had. Don't indulge yourself thinking someone is fantasising. Don't flatter yourself assuming that such thoughts would indulge me.

The culture in contemporary Lithuania stemmed from the past. It didn't appear out thin air. Ruthenian, Polish and Russian cultures influenced Lithuanian culture over the history more than any other cultures. You will be dishonest denying it.You are dishonest claiming expertize on things you know nothing of. I am eager to hear about how Russian or Ruthenian has influenced the contemporary Lithuanian culture more than, for example, German has. I am also eager to hear how Poland would have influenced Lithuanian culture more than Russian has influenced Estonian and Latvian.
Since you claim to know more about this than I do, why don't you go on and enlighten me.

It is actually fascinating how Ruthenian culture having been so close to Lithuanian for so long stayed so unintrusive. Scholars speculate that maybe the non-pretentious, non-threatening character of Ruthenians and the so called common East Slavic dialect made Lithuanian nobility chose it over Poland for allegiance to begin with.

Language is a good indicator of cultural influences, it's been discussed in this and other forum many times already - all Slavic loanwords combined constitute 1.5% of Lithuanian vocabulary which is more than four times less than the share of Russian words in Estonian vocabulary.

Most of your comments were boring to read as it's obvious you have had little exposure to the Russian culture. The great Russian writers, artists, classical musicians and philosophers were influenced by Europeans. My favorite writers and classical musicians happen to be Russian. But, please, carry on with your assumptions.

Polkas are not popular, whereas Waltzes and Cadrilles were very popular in Russia.They may have been popular in past. I am talking about the present. When I attend Russian folk events or events featuring Russians folk musicians, I don't hear such dance music. Some time ago I actually specifically scoured heaps of recordings of events which I didn't attend searching for it but still didn't find any.
So, what are we discussing here: the Western European influence that existed a hundred years ago but exists no more or the influences that actually left a lasting impact?

It was prestigious to speak French among upper class in the 19th century, whereas in Lithuania it was Polish. Germans had very strong presence in Russia too. I even conceded that the Russian culture was less influenced than Lithuanian which is debatable. As most Russians don't care much if they are seen as European or not European. As I said, I'm not sure what are you trying to say: in absolute amount, of course, Lithuania has less West/Central European cultural influences than Latvia & Estonia. On the other hand, if what you want to say is that Latvia and Estonia have proportionally more Western European influence than Eastern European influence (for the sake of this argument lets say that the Baltics themselves are neither Western European nor Eastern European) compared to Lithuania, your claim would be baseless.

Same goes for Russia. If it's about absolute numbers, I would actually find it believable that even Russian has had more West/Central European cultural influences than Lithuania. Russia isn't known for its conservativeness but the opposite. The estimations I've seen of the share of native words in it's vocabulary were not generous.

This is what I wrote (...)

Elaboration.

Catholicism and everything that came with it means the Gothical architectural style. Possibly Latin alphabet.
Contacts with Teutonic knight sand eastern Prussians - castles, warfare armour, technological advances of the time. Contacts with eastern Prussians - the fashion and dances which you considered as folk . Possibly cousine.You don't consider influences that came via East Prussia Western enough if you do not find these statements contradictory?

"I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it."
and
"Contacts with eastern Prussians influenced the fashion and dances which you considered as folk. Possibly cuisine."

Anyway, the comment I am quoting made me laugh. A lot. :)I'm pleased to hear you're amused.

I never had 'Russian' in my profile. You are mixing me up with somebody else. :pIt tells volumes that you bothered to deny having had Russian in your profile but did not bother to deny having changed nicks :)
Not that it wasn't obvious ages ago anyway.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 09:02 AM

I'm pleased to hear you're amused..

I am amused. No, I am stunned. :)

PS You can watch cadrille and waltz performed by the Russians in Youtube. There are lots of examples. IRussians excel in many types of dancing. Dancing has been their cliche whether it's folk, ballet, artistic dancing on ice or in circuses etc. They love it.

But before continuing.

Why are you (we) bringing Russia into the discussion? It was never the intention to compare Russia and Lithuania on cultural terms.

Why are you being touched(?) by the comment "I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it?" Do you want me state "Lithuanian culture was influenced by western cultures to a great extent..." to make you feel better? :)

And what's with nickname and profile changing? I didn't have 'Russian' in my profile, neither did I change my nickname ever since I registered it.

glass

07-24-2013, 10:14 AM

LMAO and that's why Lithuanian folklore is considered as more archaic than Russian by scholars? You really know not what you're talking about. Having become a subject to Judeo-Christian religion and the aforementioned raids by Mongols has eradicated far more indigenous traditions in Russia than contacts with Westerners have in Lithuania. Wanna discuss this further? :)

considered by whom? you or lithuanian scholars?
yet despite all archaic lithuanian cutlrue you listed nonlithuanian dances that popular in Lithuania and thus make Lithuania more western, unlike russian dances which are nonwestern, less prestigous and alien to lithuanians. So russians have their russian dances while lithuanians have german/polish/whatever else dances. Also i do not really understand what is indigenous lithuanian tradition, your example are mostly focused to show how western or closer to west they are

In what way have Lithuanians followed the Jewish style? Do tell, I'm all ears. As far as I'm aware there's not a single tradition that was taken over from them directly. Those that reached the region via Christianity are, of course, another issue.
there were more jews than balts in lithuanian towns for some long period, so some influence they left not strong as german or polish ofc. Anyhow jews were not single mentioned ethnicity...

You're like a severe version of RussiaPrussia who not only often struggles to sound coherent but also has trouble to comprehend what others are writing. Kinda sad that this mental-deficiency is becoming mainstream among... nah, I won't judge the whole Russia based on two specimens
:picard1:
i discuss what i quote, you can clearly see what draw my attention. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?87407-Lost-The-European-Union-s-Political-Animal&p=1769160&viewfull=1#post1769160
you actually agree with me you do not agree with my conclusions and/or analysis
basically you kinda interested in baltic or whatever else folklore but you do not really understand how to use your knowledge to proof your point therefore your comments works against your opinion quite often

FIY neither Nordics, nor Westerners have raped Lithuania like they did with Estonia-the-beautiful
true that is why Karl sees your people as eastern european untermensch
but it does not change fact that you are like mention how borrowings from west make your people more western and less eastern. YOu just favour one side and belittle another.

Your claim that 90% of Lithuanian culture is borrowed means that you know jack about Lithuania in which case you might wanna go do some reading up at wikipedia for the starters instead of coming off as a complete moron in this discussion.
too much bitching in just first response:picard1:
never seen you mentioned something origianl lithuanian, once again difference between balts and (east) slavs (according to your kind)are coming from original baltic culture but from amount of borrowings from west:eek:
You want me link quotes from your posts?

07-24-2013, 12:37 PM

I am amused. No, I am stunned. :)What's so stunning here?

Why are you being touched(?) by the comment "I cannot think of any western influence Lithuanians experienced between Mindaugas coronation (or beyond) and 1795 other than Catholisism and everything that came with it?"Because there were such influences during the said time period. I don't like ignorant foreigners making factually incorrect assertions about the Baltic countries.

Do you want me state "Lithuanian culture was influenced by western cultures to a great extent..." to make you feel better? :)Do that and I'll start arguing why that statement is incorrect :)

You simply cannot take a reasonable approach, can you? "The Western cultures either had to influence Lithuania to a great extent or there were no such influences at all..."; "Either the influences from the Western cultures must have been great or the ones from the Slavic countries must have been". How about: no, no, no and no?

The Western influences aren't great but they do exist. The influences from any other directions aren't "great", in comparison with the neighboring countries.

Why are you (we) bringing Russia into the discussion? It was never the intention to compare Russia and Lithuania on cultural terms.Was it not? When you claimed that Ruthenian, Polish and Russian cultures influenced Lithuanian culture over the history more than any other cultures, it did seem that you do perceive influence from Russia and influence from the West (or its lack thereof) as two different sides of the same coin.

And what's with nickname and profile changing? I didn't have 'Russian' in my profile, neither did I change my nickname ever since I registered it.Neither did I say that you changed this nickname ever since you registered it.

_______________________________________

yet despite all archaic lithuanian cutlrue you listed nonlithuanian dances that popular in Lithuania and thus make Lithuania more western, unlike russian dances which are nonwestern, less prestigous and alien to lithuanians. So russians have their russian dances while lithuanians have german/polish/whatever else dances.LOL apparently, you are not only clueless about Lithuanian folk but also about Russian folklore. Why don't you go and check out the folk dances of Tatars, other Central Asians and Turkics. You might be surprised to find some uncannily familiar choreography there. So much for Russian dance tunes being Russian...
To get you on the right track, why not start with this short clip from Chuvashia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEb5k6-Bdz8

And just in case you'll want to say something along the lines of: "oh.. but Russians did some fine-tunning to the choreography they took over from Turkics and Frenchies..." - Lithuanian waltzes are very far from being mere carbon copies of the Austrian ones either. But that doesn't magically transform their origin into "Lithuanian".

Also i do not really understand what is indigenous lithuanian tradition, your example are mostly focused to show how western or closer to west they are:picard1: I said that dance tunes (the fast paced instrumental melodies for dancing) are Western. Dance songs - a different genre of folk music (songs with choreography) are local. Want some examples?
Here, these are autochtonous (both songs and dances but in some of those videos the outfits aren't) - nothing fancy but that's as authentic as one can get:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khJmKRIdH9U7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9oGOInoysA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF_b0ac4TMY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktD_4nkgnK4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf2Tu6dgPmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRMU3FIOz-o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLxqerASPu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVHdqHM4iwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6vm9ZUFSZw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSxsytV2X4

considered by whom? you or lithuanian scholars?Russian too. Lithuanians have preserved the authentic pre-Christian rye-reaping, spring festival, Midsummer, etc folk songs - the tradition is still alive. In Russia most of those have been replaced by Christianity-related and later traditions. Lithuanian being the last pagan country in Europe to convert to Christianity, being babtized half-a-millenia later than Russia, would also be news for you, wouldn't it? :)
Why don't you act like a good boy and go read some wikipedia before getting in my face with this nonsense again :thumb001:

there were more jews than balts in lithuanian towns for some long period, so some influence they left not strong as german or polish ofc.Which part of my request to either point out the specific influences or admit that you were lying and making things up did you fail to understand?
The difference between you and me here is that you know absolutely nothing about the subject we are discussing. The Jews lived in secluded communities and, apart from business matters, had minimal contact with locals.
So, I repeat: either name the specific influence or admit that you know not what you're talking about.

too much bitching in just first response:picard1: You poor thing :(

never seen you mentioned something origianl lithuanian, once again difference between balts and (east) slavs (according to your kind)are coming from original baltic culture but from amount of borrowings from west:eek:
You want me link quotes from your posts?Oh, sorry, you have read ALL of my posts from this forum and didn't see me mentioning any original Lithuanian things? Or was I supposed to mention them all in this discussion where it is specifically Eastern vs Western influences rather than the autochtonous things that are being discussed?

Anyway... of all the people a Russian should tell me off for lack of authenticity in folklore - just when I thought I had seen it all... :)
I'll just quote this for the lulz ;)
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/3251-Mordvians-fake-ethnonym?p=674366&viewfull=1#post674366

Ukranians are an artificial identity invented by Soviets and if someone should be counted as separate cultural identities it's various groups lumped by Soviets under the name Ukranian.You know what is even more fake ? A Slavo-Turko-Iranian mishmash, living in a Turko-Mongol splinter state and calling themselves with a Finnic term for 'rowers'. Thats fake.

Temujin

07-24-2013, 01:18 PM

What's so stunning here?

The enthusiasm you are exhibiting arguing over little things.

Because there were such influences during the said time period. I don't like ignorant foreigners making factually incorrect assertions about the Baltic countries.

I stand by my earlier assertion about Lithuania having least cultural influence from the west in comparison to most European countries. I didn't mean in a negative way. I skipped your attempt to measure cultural influences in proportions or absolute amount which a sensible person would do. My assertion comes from personal observations. People from the countries of the region are qualified more than others to express their opinion on the subject.

Do that and I'll start arguing why that statement is incorrect :)

You are not an easy going? :)

Was it not? When you claimed that Ruthenian, Polish and Russian cultures influenced Lithuanian culture over the history more than any other cultures, it did seem that you do perceive influence from Russia and influence from the West (or its lack thereof) as two different sides of the same coin.

You started comparing western cultural influence in Russia and Lithuania. It wasn't me. You kept on going until I picked up the discussion on your terms.

You simply cannot take a reasonable approach, can you? "The Western cultures either had to influence Lithuania to a great extent or there were no such influences at all..."; "Either the influences from Western cultures must have been great or the ones from the Slavic countries must have been". How about: no, no, no and no?

Speaking of reasonableness. You spent the day on the forum arguing. Over what?

Changing my opinion was a polite way to hint you I couldn't care if Lithuania had or had not been exposed to the western culture more than the other countries or exposed to Slavic cultures. I expressed my opinion on the subject and you lost your cool.

glass

07-24-2013, 02:12 PM

LOL apparently, you are not only clueless about Lithuanian folk but also about Russian folklore. Why don't you go and check out the folk dances of Tatars, other Central Asians and Turkics. You might be surprised to find some uncannily familiar choreography there. So much for Russian dance tunes being Russian...
To get you on the right track, why not start with this short clip from Chuvashia:

:picard1:i did see cyrillic letters in the video. Does it mean russian alphabet is heavily influenced by chuvash people? Or it was strictly mongol influence? they are using cyrillic alphabet too:bored:

And just in case you'll want to say something along the lines of: "oh.. but Russians did some fine-tunning to the choreography they took over from Turkics and Frenchies..." - Lithuanian waltzes are very far from being mere carbon copies of the Austrian ones either. But that doesn't magically transform their origin into "Lithuanian"
your mindset is too alien to me i think, i was thinking about russian influence on chuvash and many others. Russians influence others, lithuanians are getting influenced, do not confuse yourself please! Do not place lithuanian and russian culture into same category.

I said that dance tunes (the fast paced instrumental melodies for dancing) are Western. Dance songs - a different genre of folk music (songs with choreography) are local. Want some examples?
Balts were trying to incorporate (superior) western elements, they could not just copy. Language barrier, different enviroment etc. Basis is western with some old baltic staff left. Result is loaned western tradition with some minor local features

Russian too. Lithuanians have preserved the authentic pre-Christian rye-reaping, spring festival, Midsummer, etc folk songs - the tradition is still alive. In Russia most of those have been replaced by Christianity-related and later traditions. Lithuanian being the last pagan country in Europe to convert to Christianity, being babtized half-a-millenia later than Russia, would also be news for you, wouldn't it?
Why don't you act like a good boy and go read some wikipedia before getting in my face with this nonsense again
have you ever heard about such christian events likehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslenitsa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night
i hope there will be one more good girl that knows how to read wikipedia:thumb001:

Which part of my request to either point out the specific influences or admit that you were lying and making things up did you fail to understand?
The difference between you and me here is that you know absolutely nothing about the subject we are discussing. The Jews lived in secluded communities and, apart from business matters, had minimal contact with locals.
So, I repeat: either name the specific influence or admit that you know not what you're talking about
i told you alrdy i mentioned jews among other people not alone,
jews had no contacts with rural locals because they have nothing in common, but jews heavily influenced urban "lithuanian" life,
im gonna be honest i admit i can not name strict jewish trait in lithuanian culture, but it does not mean im no longer claim some jewish influence in Lithuania.

You poor thing
why so?

Oh, sorry, you have read ALL of my posts from this forum
do i have to read all your posts? or you have some wierd fantasies about being stalked by me or something? i do not really understand this sentence in this conversation.

Or was I supposed to mention them all in this discussion where it is specifically Eastern vs Western influences rather than the autochtonous things that are being discusse
im arguing about eastern influence in Lithuania, conversation went into comparision. Im not really surprised because nobody (except you prolly) knows what indigenous lithuanian culture is. :(

ps: im glad word "moron" was not mentioned in whole this post. It is very surprising you noticed yourself on cultural forum and started to act more accordingly. You are not so hopeless, at least you can see difference between conversation on cultural forum and street in Lithuania:thumb001:

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 02:48 PM

Already nationalism is being compared to a neo-nazism following the Western fashion in the popular media.
I would split nationalism into two groups
1. natioanlists like Edita Mildažytė or Rita Miliūtė, I've yet to hear anybody call them neo-nazis.

2. nationalists like Panka and Cekutis, they are very much comparable to neo-nazis since they try to give 'lithuanianess' a political identity, rather then a cultural one. I would dare say this kind of nationalism is the biggest threat to Lithuania right now.

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 03:08 PM

I don't want to open another can of worm but Justas is inaccurate on conquests and proportions of ethnicities in the GDL.
I wasn't talking about the GDL but the ethnic component of the current borders through the centuries.

Hercus Monte

07-24-2013, 05:50 PM

Mildažytė..http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/Facepalm1.gif
Mildažytė is awesome, I have a lot of respect for her.

I have nothing to talk about with you then.
fair enough.... I guess.

Temujin

07-26-2013, 06:54 AM

If I am exhibiting enthusiasm - means I find those things interesting rather than little.
You've made no less posts in this discussion that I have though - so, it seems that you are no less stubborn than I am enthusiastic :p

I wouldn't be surprised if you actually counted or checked the stats on the number of posts each user made in this topic. ;)

You have to excuse my scepticism when I see someone making bold assertions while not bothering to put forth any tangible facts.
Cuisine, folk songs, costumes & dances at least offer some more or less objective criteria for evaluating the intensity of cultural contacts and influences. That's certainly more useful than abstract talks about subjective perceptions of the elusive mentality.

You presented Cepelanai cuisine as western influence, I think. Lithuanians borrowed Kibinai dish from Karaim cuisine. There may be Russian dishes cooked in contemporary Lithuania. The cultural influences you listed to support your arguments are present in one form or another in many countries. These facts may be relevant to the discussion but they are not sufficient to prove your assertion in my opinion. And I had no interests discussing little details: the form of vests and pastries, the sound of folk music.

Oh, I'm easy going alright. It's just you who annoy me enough to keep on arguing : )

Is it only me who annoys you? :rolleyes:

Wrong. As a matter of fact, it was you who started comparing western cultural influence in Russia and Lithuania first
The specific word you used when talking about Lithuanian relations to the Western European culture was "a sphere". If you use geometrical concepts in a discussion, maybe it shouldn't surprise you that the people you are discussing with do perceive this issue spatially: if influence from the Western Europe pulls some particular country closer towards West European culture, influences from it's antinome would pull that country in the opposite direction, would it not? That's what I meant by talking about the difference in comparing absolute vs relative

I wasn't taking the discussion seriously and I am not stubborn. You point me to the mistakes I made and I will correct myself. :) The point I was trying to make in my post replying to Justas is that one cannot expect Lithuania to transform quickly becoming a western European society. 10-15 years is a short period of time for the transformation.

Hercus Monte

07-26-2013, 08:36 AM

The point I was trying to make in my post replying to Justas is that one cannot expect Lithuania to transform quickly becoming a western European society. 10-15 years is a short period of time for the transformation.

I'm not disagreeing, that's the reason I posted the video. it's quite obvious we're not there yet.

07-26-2013, 08:46 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if you actually counted or checked the stats on the number of posts each user made in this topic. ;)I didn't though ;)
There was no need to, it's not like it's a tie - you made noticeably more posts in this topic. Although on average mine were longer.

You presented Cepelanai cuisine as western influence, I think. I mentioned quite a bit more, you're free to go back and check.
But since we're at that, I just remembered one more - skryliai (https://www.google.com/search?q=skryliai&client=firefox-a&hs=hfe&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6S_yUYDlBobusgbO1IHQCA&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=614#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=yIJ4twLHx4B0cM%3A%3B1eo7voYQINdJkM%3Bhttp%25 3A%252F%252Fstatic.flickr.com%252F46%252F156394522 _32d032f441_o.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgiedrius-v.livejournal.com%252F56954.html%3B800%3B600) were brought over by Bona Sforza, it's a derivation of Italian pasta (lasagna type).

Lithuanians borrowed Kibinai dish from Karaim cuisine. And Karaims came from the Middle East via Crimea, so does "Southern influence" count as "Eastern influence" in the European context too?
Anyhow, the Middle Eastern diaspora has spread far and wide. Imagine my surprise when I first came to the Westernmost piece of the West and saw kibinai in every single supermarket, even the smallest ones? They're called Cornish Pasties there, a variety of savory fillings (can be chicken, beef, lamb and/or vegetables - just like the kibinai sold in LT's supermarkets) engulfed in a pastry dough:

http://foodiessouthwest.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/pasties.jpg
http://cornishpasties.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/pasties-33.jpg

For comparison, Kibinai:
http://101kepyklele.lt/prodimg/132/P1050552.JPG
http://images19.fotki.com/v315/photos/1/1188680/6056302/kibinai016-vi.jpg

There may be Russian dishes cooked in contemporary Lithuania. There may be but not as many and not as popular as in Estonia, from what I've seen. And I don't only mean the Tsarist period but also the better half of their agricultural vocabulary being either Baltic or Slavic in origin.

The cultural influences you listed to support your arguments are present in one form or another in many countries. These facts may be relevant to the discussion but they are not sufficient to prove your assertion in my opinion. And I had no interests discussing little details: the form of vests and pastries, the sound of folk music. You had no interest in discussing any facts or details at all. You made an assertion, the burden of proof lies on you to support it, not on me to disprove it :)

If you cannot pinpoint any specific things in which Estonia or Latvia are more Western than Lithuania or in which Lithuania is more Eastern than the other two - why simply not admit that you really were talking about things you know very little of and we're done?

Is it only me who annoys? :rolleyes:No. The others just don't annoy enough to respond. You're such a bigot.

Temujin

07-26-2013, 09:38 AM

If you cannot pinpoint any specific things in which Estonia or Latvia are more Western than Lithuania or in which Lithuania is more Eastern than the other two - why simply not admit that you really were talking about things you know very little of and we're done?

Okay, I admit!

07-26-2013, 09:50 AM

I saw what you wrote before. It's ironic that it was none other than you yourself who started this "so divorced from reality" discussion. And then you ask why is that important? You tell me :lol:

Temujin

07-26-2013, 10:07 AM

I saw what you wrote before. It's ironic that it was none other than you yourself who started this "so divorced from reality" discussion. And then you ask why is that important? You tell me :lol:

You just wouldn't stop until you humiliate your opponent, then doing a little dance. ;)

I didn't realise it'd become an issue for some after making the comment. I've never seen in my life so many discussions about western, eastern or southern Europe till I joined this forum. I got involved myself a few times in such discussions. Tell me why is it a big deal to have western European influence regardless if someone makes accurate or inaccurate comment?

07-26-2013, 10:57 AM

You just wouldn't stop until you humiliate your opponent, then doing a little dance. ;)
That's how you perceive it? The point was not to humiliate. I'm just a bit baffled. When you started this discussion - and from what I know of you, I'd be willing to bet that you deliberately made the statements controversial because you wanted to get a reaction - and not necessarily a positive one, just like you knew you will get a reaction when you wrote that Balts should switch to Cyrillic. When you started a discussion, I thought: here here, we'll get some fresh perspective from a person who's actually visited some of the Baltic countries. But it turns out that sharing some insights was not the point. So in the post above I was just expressing my disappointment, not humiliating.

To answer the question why having Western Euro influence is important - the act of denying it makes it important. Otherwise it wouldn't be.

I never really figured out the obsession some Slavs have with Balts getting Slavicised. I never met this attitude among the Carpathian Poles or Ukrainians, it's always just the ones who have suspicious ancestry themselves who seem to be unsettled by the mere presence of Balts - and you act all civil & cool but the little devil inside inadvertently shows itself every once in a while. Your Baltic past is "inconvenient truth". It causes "butthurt". How stupid do you think people are? If you won't say it out loud, you think it's not going to shine through anyway eventually?
I see similar situation in the Latvian attitude towards Livonians. Latvia's been independent for over 20 years now, there was enough time to bring up a new generation of native Livonian speakers, there were even a few handfuls of enthusiasts willing to take it on but they (the Latvian nation? The government? Who's to blame here?) just chose to let the language die instead. The last native speaker died this year, the language is officially extinct now. It's just something incomprehensible to me.
I guess having a living attestation of what they themselves were but are no more was causing butthurt too.

I recently read an article written 20 years ago by a Lithuanian about Latvians. At that time Latvia's position was much less stable than it is now (I'm not talking about economics). The article was very sad and dooming, the possibility of Latvia falling [for Russia] the first out of the Baltic states seemed very close and threatening. The main theme of the article was: if they fall, we're the last ones to go (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6nm_ypsn2sU/UGu79-eT89I/AAAAAAAAAZ4/iWN5hMhHKBE/s1600/IMG_8635.jpg) (the last Balts to go). Luckily, the prognosis didn't come true and I'm glad that I came upon this article only now that it's all passed. Still, reading it in retrospective was persuasive enough.
To quote someone: there is no chance of escaping the sea of Slavs surrounding you, you can only be one of us :)

Rant over.

Temujin

07-26-2013, 12:12 PM

That's how you perceive it? The point was not to humiliate. I'm just a bit baffled. When you started this discussion - and from what I know of you, I'd be willing to bet that you deliberately made the statements controversial because you wanted to get a reaction - and not necessarily a positive one, just like you knew you will get a reaction when you wrote that Balts should switch to Cyrillic. When you started a discussion, I thought: here here, we'll get some fresh perspective from a person who's actually visited some of the Baltic countries. But it turns out that sharing some insights was not the point. So in the post above I was just expressing my disappointment, not humiliating.

I share my insights over a drink. In personal correspondence. On some forums. The Apricity is not one of them. People come to the Apricity to chill out. I am reading and replying during my mini breaks. I expected reactions after making both comments. Such behaviour on forums is called trolling. There's no need to be disappointed seeing someone is not willing to engage in a serious discussion.

I never really figured out the obsession some Slavs have with Balts getting Slavicised. I never met this attitude among the Carpathian Poles or Ukrainians, it's always just the ones who have suspicious ancestry themselves who seem to be unsettled by the mere presence of Balts - and you act all civil & cool but the little devil inside inadvertently shows itself every once in a while. Your Baltic past is "inconvenient truth". It causes "butthurt". How stupid do you think people are? If you won't say it out loud, you think it's not going to shine through anyway eventually?
I see similar situation in the Latvian attitude towards Livonians. Latvia's been independent for over 20 years now, there was enough time to bring up a new generation of native Livonian speakers, there were even a few handfuls of enthusiasts willing to take it on but they (the Latvian nation? The government? Who's to blame here?) just chose to let the language die instead. The last native speaker died this year, the language is officially extinct now. It's just something incomprehensible to me.
I guess having a living attestation of what they themselves were but are no more was causing butthurt too.

I recently read an article written 20 years ago by a Lithuanian about Latvians. At that time Latvia's position was much less stable than it is now (I'm not talking about economics). The article was very sad and dooming, the possibility of Latvia falling [for Russia] the first out of the Baltic states seemed very close and threatening. The main theme of the article was: if they fall, we're the last ones to go (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6nm_ypsn2sU/UGu79-eT89I/AAAAAAAAAZ4/iWN5hMhHKBE/s1600/IMG_8635.jpg) (the last Balts to go). Luckily, the prognosis didn't come true and I'm glad that I came upon this article only now that it's all passed. Still, reading it in retrospective was persuasive enough.

The paragraph is out of line. There was no need for it. I'm sorry you have that impression about me but you've got it wrong. And I mean you have got it wrong.

To quote someone: there is no chance of escaping the sea of Slavs surrounding you, you can only be one of us :)

The author was overwhelmed by positive feelings not realising the consequences at the time of writing the text. :)

Rant over.

You are a little emotional, but I like you that way. :)

07-27-2013, 02:02 PM

I'm sorry you have that impression about me but you've got it wrong. And I mean you have got it wrong. The paragraph is out of line.The paragraph was not meant to be in line - I hadn't slept the the previous day and was listening to this album (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-pG1wmIkDg&list=UU_DiuI3FVct4mXyDPhk5c_A) at the time I wrote it. That's why I called it a rant in the first place.

I think I was spot on about you, however :)

BTW just before some Latvian comes along to crucify me for what I've said there, maybe I should clarify that I wasn't suggesting that all Latvians were somehow obliged to start speaking Livonian. Not all of them have such ancestry anyway, I only had in mind the ones who do, from North-West Vidzeme and the Northern tip of Kurzeme (http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Livonian-dialect-of-Latvian-300x180.png). Some state funded program with lessons for willing adults, Livonian kindergartens and schools for children would have been very appropriate. They are funding heaps of Russian education facilities, after all - why not orientate towards the indigenous languages instead. Latgalian language seems to be next on the way (http://latviansonline.com/site/print/5316/).

There was no need for it.If you go around forums making comments with the intention of getting a reaction, you shouldn't be surprised when you get one. I think it was very much called for.

The author was overwhelmed by positive feelings not realising the consequences at the time of writing the text. :)The author would have been better off claiming that it was just a joke which should not had be taken seriously, but I appreciate your honesty :)

You are a little emotional, but I like you that way. :)Why would you? You shouldn't. The very reason why that 20yo article about Latvia was so moving is the context of processes currently on the way in Gervėčiai region. That region is often called "an island" in articles. Your "sea of Slavs surrounding", "no chance of escaping" suddenly gets a whole new meaning :)

Gervėčiai: tyli pabaiga, neįkainojamas palikimas (http://www.bernardinai.lt/straipsnis/2010-11-04-gerveciai-tyli-pabaiga-neikainojamas-palikimas/52435)The Lithuanian identity in Gerveciai region may die out in the nearest time as assimilation is being hastened by industrialization, says a scholar researching the villages located not far away from Vilnius.

"It can be said that is still Lithuania there - I heard Belarusians (Gudai) themselves calling that land like this. Although Gerveciai' Lithuanians themselves do not tie themselves to Lithuania so directly, their own Lithuanian identity is not questionable for them. They even stress the instances of "Belarusianization" (Gudėjimo) of certain people from their community as something distinct. But here I am talking about the old generation. The younger ones were forced to choose more radically. Those who wanted to associate themselves with Lithuania have migrated there, those who stayed in their region started to dissolve in the Belarusian environment - in their consciousness the Lithuanian identity is still alive but their language is already affected and their own children almost don't speak Lithuanian," - said Matuleviciene.

She explained that the research expedition aims to record a visual archive of language, traditions, customs.

The scholar says that the expedition was prompted by Belarus' plans to build a nuclear power plant 20km away from Lithuanian isle of Gerveciai. There is also a so called "agro-city" with modern infrastructure being created in Rimdziunai while the old street village is turning into something akin to a reservation.

There's a whole wealth of reasons to motivate putting the ethnic identity aside. But in reality the industrialization of the region is only speeding up the process that has been going on for a while already.

A greater attention from Lithuania would have perhaps helped to preserve the identity there for longer. But it needs to be understood that the base of that identity there is the inter-war period people. They were very much aware of what they are themselves.

I like what that jew Dzermantas writes so much better. But comparing his writings to those of Lithuanian ethnologists I am left with an impression that his optimism may be very much unfounded.

Temujin

07-28-2013, 01:54 AM

The paragraph was not meant to be in line - I hadn't slept the the previous day and was listening to this album (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-pG1wmIkDg&list=UU_DiuI3FVct4mXyDPhk5c_A) at the time I wrote it. That's why I called it a rant in the first place.

I think I was spot on about you, however :)

The little devil showing itself once in a while isn't me. It was only a figment of your imagination while you were listening to Budrūs - Būdraujant. I am an angel when it comes to supporting the preservation of cultures and languages. :) I know what it means loosing it no less than you. I may have written something to get a reaction, but there was never any malicious intent.

BTW just before some Latvian comes along to crucify me for what I've said there, maybe I should clarify that I wasn't suggesting that all Latvians were somehow obliged to start speaking Livonian. Not all of them have such ancestry anyway, I only had in mind the ones who do, from North-West Vidzeme and the Northern tip of Kurzeme (http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Livonian-dialect-of-Latvian-300x180.png). Some state funded program with lessons for willing adults, Livonian kindergartens and schools for children would have been very appropriate. They are funding heaps of Russian education facilities, after all - why not orientate towards the indigenous languages instead. Latgalian language seems to be next on the way (http://latviansonline.com/site/print/5316/).
............

Why would you? You shouldn't. The very reason why that 20yo article about Latvia was so moving is the context of processes currently on the way in Gervėčiai region. That region is often called "an island" in articles. Your "sea of Slavs surrounding", "no chance of escaping" suddenly gets a whole new meaning :)
............

I like what that jew Dzermantas writes so much better. But comparing his writings to those of Lithuanian ethnologists I am left with an impression that his optimism may be very much unfounded.

In case you maybe interested. There was an expedition of Lithuanian Institute and Literature in the 50s during which many villages and towns speaking Aukštaitijan dialects were found. Maybe 100 or more, I can't remember. Zinkevicius published a book including maps using the material gathered during the expedition: Zinkevicius Z. Lietuviq dialektologija. Vilnius, 1966. Gervėčiai is often mentioned in the media but there are other enclaves survived to present day. The monument to Vytautas made of oak in traditional Lithuanian style was erected in Pelesa not long ago.

http://www.mytravel.by/wp-content/uploads/adkryty-pomnik-vyalikamu-knyazyu-vkl-vitautu_5.jpg
http://www.mytravel.by/wp-content/uploads/adkryty-pomnik-vyalikamu-knyazyu-vkl-vitautu_2.jpg
http://www.mytravel.by/wp-content/uploads/adkryty-pomnik-vyalikamu-knyazyu-vkl-vitautu_3.jpg

Unfortunately, Gervėčiai may follow the same path as many towns and villages before it.

What do you think could be done preserving the Samogitian dialect which is considered as a separate language by some? Could Samogitian autonomy and the Samogitian dialect receiving official status be an option? ;) Just to give the region and its people a form of recognition promoting cultural self-awareness so young people are not embarrassed speaking the dialect in public places and large regional centres.

The information is from Wikipedia's article the accuracy of which I haven't checked.

The Samogitian dialect is rapidly declining: it is not used in the local school system and there is only one quarterly magazine and no television broadcasts in Samogitian. There are some radio broadcasts in Samogitian (in Klaipėda and Telšiai). Local newspapers and broadcast stations use standard Lithuanian instead. There is no new literature in Samogitian either, as authors prefer standard Lithuanian for its accessibility to a larger audience. Out of those people who speak Samogitian, only a few can understand its written form well.
Migration of Samogitian speakers to other parts of the country and migration into Samogitia have reduced contact between Samogitian speakers, and therefore the level of fluency of those speakers.
There are attempts by the Samogitian Cultural Society to stem the loss of the dialect. The council of Telšiai city put marks with Samogitian names for the city at the roads leading to the city. A new system for writing Samogitian was created
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samogitian_dialect

And what could be done about stopping young people leaving Lithuania in large numbers? It maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad. It may not be possible after spending 20 years in other countries. Two generations and the cultural ties are broken due to social pressure for immigrants to assimilate. Between 10% to 20% of Lithuanian population left the country in 10 years by some accounts. The sea of Slavs wouldn't have dreamt assimilating that many Balts in a short period of time even if there was such agenda. Sorry to sound dramatic but it's true.

I can relate to your concerns over cultural assimilation, I really can, but maybe you should be focusing on your domestic problems leading others by example so to speak, before expressing your concerns on Latgale and Gervėčiai region. :)

Skomand

07-28-2013, 12:03 PM

Penkta sukaktuwe Berlyno lietuwių draugystes 1909

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i307712_verein1.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/307712_verein1.jpg.html)

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i307713_verein2.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/307713_verein2.jpg.html)

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i307714_verein3.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/307714_verein3.jpg.html)

This leaflet of the 5th anniversary of the Lithuanian Society of Berlin shows what might be in store for Lithuanianness in the future.
With several thousands of Prussian-Lithuanians present in Berlin only 70 joined the society. Lithuanians showed a tendency of avoiding fellow Lithuanians in their social life and were ashamed to speak Lithuanian.

Temujin

07-28-2013, 12:27 PM

Samogitians are not a separate nation. Politically and religiously it didn't have a distinct history. If Latgale once belonged to the Commonwealth and now are Catholic, then the same can ot be said about Samogitia. Only Lithuania Minor which was a part of Germany can claim a different identity but most of those people moved to Germany. Now it's inhabited mostly by Samogitians and other Lithuanians.
That is perhaps the reason why Latgalian differs from Latvian more and have a more active cultural movement.

Samogitia was a seperate administrative unit for quite some time. Autonomy is not independence from Lithuania. It doesn't have be to be an autonomy to preserve the Samogitian dialect anyway. The main point wasn't about Samogitia becoming indpendent although some people wouldn't mind some form of self-governance. Do you want to have Samogitian as a nationality written in your passport? Some people have it as far as I know. ;)

Hercus Monte

07-28-2013, 04:50 PM

unless it would make western Lithuania financialy richer. But then we would have serious issues settling Samogitian "borders".
I remember we used to have 'ethnic' lessons in school up till 7th grade. One of the themes used to be the šišioniškiai dialect. worked to some extent since some Prussian-Lithuanian words(like šūlė, Oma, etc.) and a slight accent stuck to our everyday use of the language.
Personally, I would be more concerned with reviving Lutheranism.

Hercus Monte

07-28-2013, 05:14 PM

Well, in my native town we have no such lessons. Both of my Lithuanian teachers were Aukštaitians and they basically never talked about dialects in general or Samogitian. There was a third teacher, a big mouth who liked to teach "life's truth" but he never talked about dialects either. As if it wouldn't exist. No one ever spoke Samogitian during breaks either.

Religion among people have even less chances, imo. But since you dialect is basically dead, who knows.

one of my lithuanian teachers spoke fluent šišioniškiai, and folk ensambles are quite popular.
I don't think our dialect is completely dead. it's just heavily standardised, surprisingly samogitian didn't leave a big impact.
samogitians and auštaičiai sometimes make fun of how we pronounce some words. (like 'trise' we say tries(e))

but you're right it's barely noticeable, this is why lutheranism would be a lot better, since the differences between Catholics and Lutherans are huge.

Temujin

07-28-2013, 05:39 PM

Samogitia is an overly integral part of Lithuania, I can not imagine people voting for autonomy unless it would make western Lithuania financialy richer. But then we would have serious issues settling Samogitian "borders". Ethnographic areas based on 19th c. houses, clothes, etc. arent very relevant today. As I said, the main cultural differnce today is the linguistic one and if we speak about an autonomy not based on language but something else, then those are empty talks. It doesn't matter that "Samogitia was a seperate administrative unit for quite some time" as Samogitians feel like as much Lithuanian as any other Lithuanian. Already Vytautas said that Lithunians and Samogitians are "one people". Ask a random 21th c. Samogitian, he will say the same.

Anyway, we have dialects declining in all over Lithuania, not just Samogitia. Real actions to boost dialect's prestige should not be limited to Samogitia. I don't really know anyone who would support Samogitian only, if one supports Samogitian, then the same applies to the rest of Lithuanian tongues.

Anyone in Vytautas's position would have said something similar given the political circumstances of the time. Russians said that 'Lithuanians are Russians seduced by Poles and Catholicism' once.

I am afraid to be accused of having a little devil inside showing again. Let’s drop the discussion about politics, it wasn’t a good example.

Are you content with the fact Samogitian dialect is declining? In my ears Samogitian was the most distinct dialect in comparison to other Lithuanian dialects. It sounded like another language.

07-31-2013, 03:36 AM

This leaflet of the 5th anniversary of the Lithuanian Society of Berlin shows what might be in store for Lithuanianness in the future.
With several thousands of Prussian-Lithuanians present in Berlin only 70 joined the society. Lithuanians showed a tendency of avoiding fellow Lithuanians in their social life and were ashamed to speak Lithuanian.Little has changed regarding the Lithuanians who live abroad. I don’t know if you realize it but there’s a fundamental difference between Lithuanians living in homeland and those living abroad - there always has been.

but you're right it's barely noticeable, this is why lutheranism would be a lot better, since the differences between Catholics and Lutherans are huge.
Better for what? For creating artificial differences where there are none? Adherence to the Christian faith is only a few centuries old phenomenon that started with the contra-reformation. It's rapidly declining and I don't see any problem in that. Catholicism at least bears some historical value in that it has absorbed many pagan traditions. Lutheranism, on the other hand is fit for nothing except for eradicating the indigenous traditions. The economic benefits it brings can’t outweigh this.

I remember we used to have 'ethnic' lessons in school up till 7th grade. One of the themes used to be the šišioniškiai dialect. worked to some extent since some Prussian-Lithuanian words(like šūlė, Oma, etc.) and a slight accent stuck to our everyday use of the language.
Personally, I would be more concerned with reviving Lutheranism.If dialects were to be brought back to everyday usage in the public life (news, public events, schools, etc.), I would expect them to be ridded of loanwords. Otherwise, if a handful of distorted borrowings from German was all there was of the supposed distinctiveness, then the very existence of such dialect would be pretty pointless.
There are things so much more archaic and worthwhile to keep than those German words in the šišioniškiai dialect – for example, the dual number, unpalatalized word endings (mede instead of medžiai) or some retained diphthongs (indėti instead of įdėti) – it is their usage that ought to be encouraged.

Do you want to have Samogitian as a nationality written in your passport? Some people have it as far as I know. Nobody has it. It is not recognized as a spearate nationality and if you knew Lithuanian language you would understand why Samogitian is perceived as a dialect rather than a language.
There are some people who would like to have it as a nationality in passports but those are the fringe history revisionists “Samogitia=Sarmatia”.

Anyone in Vytautas's position would have said something similar given the political circumstances of the time. Russians said that 'Lithuanians are Russians seduced by Poles and Catholicism' once. Just because it happened to be useful for him to say it does not mean that it therefore must have been a lie. Vytautas wasn’t claiming similar things about Prussians or Scalovians even though it would have been usefull for his position too. Žemaitija translates into English simply as lowlands, any Samogitian will tell you that much. The core area that is nowadays called by the name Žemaitija is in West Lithuanian highlands. That reflects the historical movement Westwards of the Samogitian identity from the Central Lithuanian lowlands (http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaizdas:LithuaniaPhysicalMap-lt.png) & the assimilation of Curonians. It is first and foremost the Curonian substrate that makes the contemporary Samogitian distinct from the East Lithuanian dialects. In Vytautas‘ times the Curonians weren‘t yet fully assimilated, so the difference between Samogitians and other Lithuanians must have been even smaller than it is now.

Are you content with the fact Samogitian dialect is declining? In my ears Samogitian was the most distinct dialect in comparison to other Lithuanian dialects. It sounded like another language.If you are referring to that guessing game of mine, I deliberately chose the most hardcore sample of Northern Samogitian. In the source video the interviewer himself has trouble understanding everything interviewee says despite of being a Samogitian too, albeit a Southern one. There are three subtypes of Samogitian (http://samogitia.mch.mii.lt/KALBA/kalbimages/Z_zem.gif) and it's nothing unusual for Southern Samogitians to find it difficult to comprehend the Northern ones.
Here's from a recent survey about dialects, a noticeable portion of Samogitians themselves said that they find Samogitian dialect the most difficult to understand – they obviously had these intra-Samogitian differences in mind:
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/9126/7jr.gif
http://taikomojikalbotyra.lt.azalija.serveriai.lt/en/2012/10/lietuvos-miestu-gyventoju-tarmines-regionines-savimones-ypatumai-sociolingvistinio-tyrimo-duomenimis

What do you think could be done preserving the Samogitian dialect which is considered as a separate language by some? Could Samogitian autonomy and the Samogitian dialect receiving official status be an option? Just to give the region and its people a form of recognition promoting cultural self-awareness so young people are not embarrassed speaking the dialect in public places and large regional centres. Having some autonomous unit with one united standardized version of Samogitian would not solve the problem. There's not one Samogitian dialect but many regional variations. Standardization would just reduce the diversity. The position of dialects isn't as bad as it is often portrayed, the vast majority of Lithuanians are in favor of maintaining dialects rather than eradicating them:
http://imageshack.us/a/img838/7127/vhrw.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img585/8391/abz.gif
http://taikomojikalbotyra.lt.azalija.serveriai.lt/en/2012/10/lietuvos-miestu-gyventoju-tarmines-regionines-savimones-ypatumai-sociolingvistinio-tyrimo-duomenimis

Notice how few people answered "none" when asked about the most beautiful dialect (people in the territories marked as North-East Dzukija on the map historically consider themselves Aukstaitian, so their answers shouldn't be surprising):
http://imageshack.us/a/img40/6554/a9f.gif
http://taikomojikalbotyra.lt.azalija.serveriai.lt/en/2012/10/lietuvos-miestu-gyventoju-tarmines-regionines-savimones-ypatumai-sociolingvistinio-tyrimo-duomenimis

Or how few answered none when asked about which dialect they are the most accustomed to (Samogitians call Standard Lithuanian as "Aukstaitian"):
http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7193/8c2.gif

Gervėčiai is often mentioned in the media but there are other enclaves survived to present day. Gerveciai is special because of their songs and traditions. I haven't come upon songs from other regions cited in ethnology research papers or written down in extensive folk song catalogues. Maybe those other islets aren't as conservative. If it's not for the lack of traditions but just because they're obscure... it would be even more sad if they went into oblivion without at least being properly documented.

The little devil showing itself once in a while isn't me. It was only a figment of your imagination while you were listening to Budrūs - Būdraujant. The title or lyrics of that song had nothing to do with what I said about any of this. It just created a nice apocalyptic atmosphere, very much fitting for ranting dooming procrastinations about the end of the word :)

I know what it means loosing it no less than you. I may have written something to get a reaction, but there was never any malicious intent. I am an angel when it comes to supporting the preservation of cultures and languages.Sure you are. I didn't mean to say that your intentions were malicious. Your pan-Slavism stems from warm feelings, as you said :)

maybe you should be focusing on your domestic problems leading others by example so to speak, before expressing your concerns on Latgale and Gervėčiai region. Just how much of a hypocrite exactly do you think I am? :lol:
Feel free to ask mods about which country my IP is from. It ain't the misty Albion I'm writing this from, I can tell you that much.

The sea of Slavs wouldn't have dreamt assimilating that many Balts in a short period of time even if there was such agenda. Sorry to sound dramatic but it's true.The proportional figures aren't too different from the population loss due to deportations to Siberia + extermination of the resistance fighters (Forrest Brothers) - the key difference being that loss of population isn't being replaced by people imported from other Soviet republics as massively as it was happening in the past. At least for now...

And what could be done about stopping young people leaving Lithuania in large numbers? It maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad. It may not be possible after spending 20 years in other countries. Two generations and the cultural ties are broken due to social pressure for immigrants to assimilate. Between 10% to 20% of Lithuanian population left the country in 10 years by some accounts. And it's a good thing that they're not returning. Emigrants returning en masse would alter the collective mentality of their home country. And I'm all for there not being any changes. Ever :D

Seriously though, emigration isn't a problem as long as there's no mass immigration to replace the population loss. It's not like such emigration trend would last indefinitely. Young people leave because they want to live independently but cannot afford to buy themselves new houses. As masses of people leave, the prices of apartments should go down but.. our ingenious government came up with the most retarded law ever - foreigners are now allowed to buy property. So, what we have as a result is Belarusians massively buying properties here in order to get visas so that they could move Westwards (in Latvia Russians are doing the same). They often don't even bother to check out the properties they're buying beforehand - it may be some hut that's burned down 5 years ago, they don't care as long as on paper there's a 20m2 living room which enables one person to apply for a visa. I'm not making this up, the issue made the news headlines a while ago, here's one article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=lt&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrytas.lt%2F-13024639501301800467-baltarusiai-perka-net-ir-griuv%25C4%2597sius-kad-tiktai-gaut%25C5%25B3-i%25C5%25A1svajot%25C4%2585-viz%25C4%2585.htm

This Autumn there will be a large scale civil initiative to make a referendum to reverse that retarded law. If it succeeds, the future prospects might become much brighter - property prices fall, less young people emigrate.

Temujin

07-31-2013, 09:11 AM

Nobody has it. It is not recognized as a spearate nationality and if you knew Lithuanian language you would understand why Samogitian is perceived as a dialect rather than a language.
There are some people who would like to have it as a nationality in passports but those are the fringe history revisionists “Samogitia=Sarmatia”.

This is a translation of comment made by a Lithuanian on another forum.

Translation:
Passports [for Samogitians] were printed in a centralised order with degrees of protection. The passports were issued by an activist organisation at its discretion. The condition for obtaining such passport was to be fully Samogitian. Half-Samogitian couldn’t receive them. Around 200 passports were issued by unofficial accounts . Some people managed to travel in other countries using these passports. Nobody knows [in Lithuania] about the purpose of such passport.
Source: http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/topic,9846.msg155427.html#msg155427

A picture of passport:

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/laiptas/24306332/53089/53089_900.jpg

Such passports don't have any legal status in Lithuania? There're discussions on the Internet regarding the 'Samogitian passports'.

Just because it happened to be useful for him to say it does not mean that it therefore must have been a lie. Vytautas wasn’t claiming similar things about Prussians or Scalovians even though it would have been usefull for his position too. Žemaitija translates into English simply as lowlands, any Samogitian will tell you that much. The core area that is nowadays called by the name Žemaitija is in West Lithuanian highlands. That reflects the historical movement Westwards of the Samogitian identity from the Central Lithuanian lowlands (http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaizdas:LithuaniaPhysicalMap-lt.png) & the assimilation of Curonians. It is first and foremost the Curonian substrate that makes the contemporary Samogitian distinct from the East Lithuanian dialects. In Vytautas‘ times the Curonians weren‘t yet fully assimilated, so the difference between Samogitians and other Lithuanians must have been even smaller than it is now.

One doesn't need to know Lithuanian tongues to know the meaning of Žemaitija. I knew the meaning of it.

Two different archeological cultures from late iron age existed in eastern Lithuania, north-western Belarus on one side and north-western Lithuania in the land of Žemaitija on another side. The Lithuanian Grand Dukes sold Samogitia to Teutonic Order on many occasions. It's difficult to imagine the sale of the region with people of your kind to your eternal enemy on many occasions. To Somogitians' credit , they never surrendered holding on to their pagan traditions longest. In addition, the full official name of the state was known as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia [present day Ukraine and parts of Belarus], Samogitia and others.

These facts provide some indication about Samogitians being a separate Baltic tribe at least until 1422. But I don't perceive modern day Samogitians being any less Lithuanian than the rest of Lithuanians. I was interested to know if Samogitians wanted to preserve their distinct dialect as we were discussing culture&language in the context preservation. I received an answer from another member.

If you are referring to that guessing game of mine, I deliberately chose the most hardcore sample of Northern Samogitian. In the source video the interviewer himself has trouble understanding everything interviewee says despite of being a Samogitian too, albeit a Southern one. There are three subtypes of Samogitian (http://samogitia.mch.mii.lt/KALBA/kalbimages/Z_zem.gif) and it's nothing unusual for Southern Samogitians to find it difficult to comprehend the Northern ones.
Here's from a recent survey about dialects, a noticeable portion of Samogitians themselves said that they find Samogitian dialect the most difficult to understand – they obviously had these intra-Samogitian differences in mind

Thanks for gathering all this information. It's interesting. :)

I will quote a comment from a topic on Samogitian dialect. Lingvoforum a discussion board on which enthusiasts gather discussing everything related to languages. The same Lithuanian guy who wrote about Samogitian passports answered the question if Samogitian is a dialect or a separate language.

Translation
Literary Lithuanian and Samogitian have little mutual understanding (officially Samogitian dialect is considered Lithuanian, so the question [of OP] wasn't formulated properly). Samogitian is not a separate language because it's not a written language, or let’s say, it doesn't have a written tradition in comparison to Latgalian.
Source: http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/topic,9846.msg151814.html#msg151814

I heard the language [Samogitian] obviously but I don’t understand it well. Even when they speak in standard Lithuanian, as it’s an only way of communicating with other Lithuanians, they have a strong accent, and in order to understand what they are saying one needs to 'cock up his or her ears'. I cannot listen to them spontaneously, because after some time I stop understanding what they are saying. The phonetics of their language is very foreign. They [Samogitians] don’t even try to speak in Samogitian to non-Samogitians as it’s useless.

Two years ago we had an advertisement on TV in Samogitian in which standard Lithuanian subtitles were used. Draw your own conclusions.
Source: http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/topic,9846.msg151821.html#msg151821

The same impression I had when I listened to different Baltic dialects. It sounded like another language.
This is only a single opinion but it was the opinion of a Lithuanian on a linguistic forum who doesn't have a point to prove. The guy knows about Slavic and Baltic languages more than an average person, I can tell you that much. I get an impression the dialect convergence to the standard is inevitable, although Lithuanians are in favour of preserving the dialects. Am I not mistaken?

Gerveciai is special because of their songs and traditions. I haven't come upon songs from other regions cited in ethnology research papers or written down in extensive folk song catalogues. Maybe those other islets aren't as conservative. If it's not for the lack of traditions but just because they're obscure... it would be even more sad if they went into oblivion without at least being properly documented.

There are many articles on Balto-Slavic commonalities written by scholars hosted on the Russian Academy of Sciences website (http://www.inslav.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108:-l-r&catid=8:2009-08-05-10-47-42&Itemid=8). I can assure you Gervecai wasn't the only region on Belarusian side of the border in which folk songs and old customs were discussed.
Remember I cited a song practised during burials among villagers? It came from far further west than Gervecai . The song was recorded in the 80s though.

Just how much of a hypocrite exactly do you think I am? :lol:
Feel free to ask mods about which country my IP is from. It ain't the misty Albion I'm writing this from, I can tell you that much.

I am not that shallow or distrustful going asking about your IP. ;)

The proportional figures aren't too different from the population loss due to deportations to Siberia + extermination of the resistance fighters (Forrest Brothers) - the key difference being that loss of population isn't being replaced by people imported from other Soviet republics as massively as it was happening in the past. At least for now...

I am not sure why you are writing all this replying to the comment I made. I was referring to Slavs, while you referred to Soviets under which several Slavic nations as well as other ethnicities suffered losing no less people than Lithuanians.

And it's a good thing that they're not returning. Emigrants returning en masse would alter the collective mentality of their home country. And I'm all for there not being any changes. Ever :D

I was writing about people who began leaving the country after joining the EU. They haven't changed their mentality to an extent that their return would affect the mentality of people living at home. Migrants still live in segregated communities opening their own shops, watching movies and listening to the music produced at home; eating buckwheat porridge for breakfast and cold beetroot soup in summer. But okay, you expressed your point of view.

Seriously though, emigration isn't a problem as long as there's no mass immigration to replace the population loss.

10-20%, let say 15% of the population on average leaving in 8 years since joining the EU is not a mass migration? I'd call it an exodus of people. Once again, your point of view is noted.

Anyhow, I am still unsure why you needed to rant in the previous page (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?87407-Lost-The-European-Union-s-Political-Animal&p=1774119&viewfull=1#post1774119). I suspect you were upset about me stating Lithuanians had less western cultural influence than two other Baltic states. The rest was your emotions. Yes, that was too much to bear for you. Was it not? ;)

07-31-2013, 11:46 AM

This is a translation of comment made by a Lithuanian on another forum.

Such passports don't have any legal status in Lithuania? There're discussions on the Internet regarding the 'Samogitian passports'. No, they have never had any legal status in Lithuania whatsoever. Out of half a million Samogitians merely 200 people bothered to get those passports? Wow, impressive. Pretty much goes in line with what I said about separatism being marginalized. My "fully Samogitian till-the-dawn-of-times" grandfather laughed when he first heard about those passports.

I personally would vote in favor of separatism but that it mainly due to issues with shale gas.

I will quote a comment from a topic on Samogitian dialect. Lingvoforum a discussion board on which enthusiasts gather discussing everything related to languages. The same Lithuanian guy who write about Samogitian passports answered the question if Samogitian is a dialect or a separate language.
This is only a single opinion but it was the opinion of a Lithuanian on a linguistic forum who doesn't have a point to prove. The guy knows about Slavic and Baltic languages more than an average person, I can tell you that much. I get an impression the dialect convergence to the standard is inevitable, although Lithuanians are in favour of preserving the dialects. Am I not mistaken?LMAO sure he doesn't have a point to prove about the distinctiveness of the Samogitians - him spreading disinformation about those joke of a passport thingies goes very well in line with him not having any point to make :lol:
His blabberings about Samogitian not having any written tradition also shows how "well informed" on the subject he is lol

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll quote an actual specialist in this field - a Swiss linguist who is working as a professional translator in Lithuania (Samogitia, to be more exact) and who recently received an award for his outstanding work.

-While you were learning Lithuanian language you also heard dialects. Was it easy to comprehend, for example, what a Samogitian is talking about?
-After something like 20 minutes of listening you can already understand the person talking in a [Samogitian] dialect.
In Switzerland people talking in certain dialects, like those of the valleys of Alps, are also sometimes difficult to understand at first. But it doesn’t matter for the sake of understanding if you just don’t get some particular words.
Sometimes I see a lot of unwillingness. People from Vilnius have preconceived notions that the should not understand Samogitian. They live going by that self-created myth that they are not able to comprehend it.
I think understanding is possible, especially the television should incorporate more dialects in a playful manner.

-This year has been declared the year of dialects. Is the attention for them is sufficient in Lithuania? Are they not undervalued?
-I think everybody should learn the Standard language. A Swiss also needs to know the Satndard German language even though peopl don’t use it in the streets there – in Switzerland even the television is in dialects.
It is natural that in Samogitia even in the police the interrogations take place in Samogitian. What can you squeeze out of a Samogitian in Standard language? It would be strange if a Samogitian policeman would converse with a Samogitian suspect in an off-shot of Sudovian dialect (=standard language was based on Sudovian, despite of it bearing more resemblance to contemporary Aukstaitian). As one linguist once said, the Standard is just one of the many varieties of the Lithuanian language. It is the variety meant for writing.
In Skuodas district all council meetings are held in Samogitian. They are making use of the fact that the law requires to write the summaries of official meetings in Standard Lithuanian but says nothing about what language ought to be spoken during them. So they write protocols in Standard but talk in Samogitian.
There are special contests for school childern who write in Samogitian.
But there are also negative aspects. One friend of mine, a South Samogitian, writes poetry in his dialect. He says that the langguage of a largest Samogitian group – North Samogitians – which starts prevailing among written Samogitian texts is not close to Southern Samogitians. The Samogitian variety that’s been cannonized by A.Girdenis or J.Pabrėža is allien to a person from Varniai or Kelmė.
A positive aspect of this process is a conservation of the language for the future generations – it lessens the danger of dissappearing due to globalism.
http://www.skrastas.lt/?data=2013-01-25&id=1358963732&pried=2013-01-25

Two different archeological cultures from late iron age existed in eastern Lithuania, north-western Belarus on one side and north-western Lithuania in the land of Žemaitija on another side. The Lithuanian Grand Dukes sold Samogitia to Teutonic Order on many occasions. It's difficult to imagine the sale of the region with people of your kind to your eternal enemy on many occasions.Nowadays it is difficult to imagine many realities of those times. It might be interesting for you to check out the movie Getto (2006):
https://www.youtube.com/user/bezsenny666/videos?view=1&flow=grid
It was filmed in Vilnius, there's a scene with Heino Ferch arguing with local Jews about his collaboration with Nazis that was very persuasive. The whole movie is precisely about the mode of action that you find so hard to imagine.

The same impression I had when I listened to different Baltic dialects. It sounded like another language. If you don't mind me reminding you, I'll just add that you failed to tell apart the heavily Finnic influenced Latvian dialects from the Lithuanian ones at the first go. Or even Latgalian from Dzukian - but now that you already know what's what, you conveniently leave out that part of your first impression. Talking about subjectivity and the relevance of your perceptions :lol:

I am not sure why you are writing all this replying to the comment I made. I was referring to Slavs, while you referred to Soviets under which several Slavic nations as well as other ethnicities suffered losing no less people than Lithuanians.Soviets were merely carrying on the practices that were initiated during the Tsarist occupation. There were Russification policies in place, like official bilingualism with Russian predominating in public structures just to give one example. So, nice try to portray the processes that took place during the Soviet occupation as not being a part of planned Slavic expansionism but it isn't really convincing.

Migrants still live in segregated communities opening their own shops, watching movies and listening to the music produced at home; eating buckwheat porridge for breakfast and cold beetroot soup in summer. But okay, you expressed your point of view. Being segregated abroad is not the norm. Only a fraction of all migrants live like that - and that's only happening in UK, rarely in Norway too but not anywhere else AFAIK. A large part of normal emigrants derogatively refer to those communities as "lietuvynai".
Opening shops in itself is not a sign of segregation. There were very few Lithuanians in the neighborhood where I lived but there was a Lithuanian shop nearby. It catered to pretty much all Eastern immigrants from the area, not just the Lithuanians.

I was writing about people who began leaving the country after joining the EU. They haven't changed their mentality to an extent that their return would affect the mentality of people living at home. I was talking about the same people too. 10 years is not enough to change one's mentality? Then why did you yourself say that "it maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad"? Obviously, finances are not going to be an issue for those people - most Lithuanians abroad work for building up some savings. What things apart from the changes in mentality could make it difficult for them to come back? I can't think of any.
One can resist changes in one's mentality for only as long as one doesn't comprehend the people from the host country. Afterwards the changes become inevitable. It's like losing oneself, as little as just a few years is usually enough to make those changes visible for people from the home country. A decade abroad tends to have a rather profound effect.

10-20%, let say 15% of the population on average leaving in 8 years since joining the EU is not a mass migration? I'd call it an exodus of people. Once again, your point of view is noted. Did I say that emigration was not massive or did I specifically say that immigration was not massive? Once again, your reading comprehension skills are noted.

Anyhow, I am still unsure why you needed to rant in the previous page. I suspect you were upset about me stating Lithuanians had less western cultural influence than two other Baltic states. The rest was your emotions. Yes, that was too much to bear for you. Was it not? I admit I made a mistake not realising my inconsiderate comments will cause so much annoyance. ;)Your snotty attitude of claiming expertize in a topic of which you know very little was what triggered the rant. It was not what what inspired the content of the rant, as I have already told you.
My annoyance stems from having found out about your views after having spent time discussing certain issues about Belarus that I would have never asked you anything about if I had know that you're such a biased bigot. I like how you went on about Belarusians being perfectly at peace with the knowledge that various nations have taken part in their ethnogenesis while those shrewd Lithies are bizarrely denying their Finnic heritage - while at the same time you were going through that major butthurt over the Baltic pas of your own region.

I don't know anyone who's having an agenda to assimilate Balts despite you took a comment out of context presenting it as some kind of evidence. It’s not about me wanting to assimilate Balts. :picard1: I didn't say that you have an agenda to assimilate Balts. It's about you playing an objective jolly frolic observer while in reality you're a biased bigot.

Hercus Monte

07-31-2013, 12:08 PM

Better for what? For creating artificial differences where there are none? Adherence to the Christian faith is only a few centuries old phenomenon that started with the contra-reformation. It's rapidly declining and I don't see any problem in that. Catholicism at least bears some historical value in that it has absorbed many pagan traditions. Lutheranism, on the other hand is fit for nothing except for eradicating the indigenous traditions. The economic benefits it brings can’t outweigh this.

I don't think everyone should convert to Lutheranism, I just think the church should be more active. :D (religion is dying anyway, whats the point?)
right now they bring us out as if we're some kind of circus moneys to show to German or Scandinavian or finnic tourists.
More importantly, I don't want to sound mean but Lutheranism is in many aspects superior to Catholicism. the most important being community. Catholics, unlike Lutherans, lack a strong sense of community and I really think Lithuania needs this right now.

If dialects were to be brought back to everyday usage in the public life (news, public events, schools, etc.), I would expect them to be ridded of loanwords. Otherwise, if a handful of distorted borrowings from German was all there was of the supposed distinctiveness, then the very existence of such dialect would be pretty pointless.
There are things so much more archaic and worthwhile to keep than those German words in the šišioniškiai dialect – for example, the dual number, unpalatalized word endings (mede instead of medžiai) or some retained diphthongs (indėti instead of įdėti) – it is their usage that ought to be encouraged.

nothing but dreams. won't ever happen since most consider themselves to be samogitians.
Since I can't have our actual accents, I'll take a few german loan-words. better then nothing :noidea:

Temujin

07-31-2013, 01:08 PM

repeat. :)

Temujin

07-31-2013, 01:11 PM

No, they have never had any legal status in Lithuania whatsoever. Out of half a million Samogitians merely 200 people bothered to get those passports? Wow, impressive. Pretty much goes in line with what I said about separatism being marginalized. My "fully Samogitian till-the-dawn-of-times" grandfather laughed when he first heard about those passports.

I never stated all Samogitians have these passports. I wrote some people have it as far as I know. If you search on the subject you will find many discussions relating to 'Samogitian passports'. It appears you didn't know that such 'passports' exist in Lithuania which attract attention in some circles.

LMAO sure he doesn't have a point to prove about the distinctiveness of the Samogitians - him spreading disinformation about those joke of a passport thingies goes very well in line with him not having any point to make :lol:
His blabberings about Samogitian not having any written tradition also shows how "well informed" on the subject he is lol

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll quote an actual specialist in this field - a Swiss linguist who is working as a professional translator in Lithuania (Samogitia, to be more exact) and who recently received an award for his outstanding work.
http://www.skrastas.lt/?data=2013-01-25&id=1358963732&pried=2013-01-25

He seemed to be a linguist for your information. He didn't spread any false information about Samogitian passports. He was asked about the passports, and he explained what they were. He was a regular and stable on the forum related to linguistics. Noone ever questioned his expertise in linguistics except you. :rolleyes:

Nowadays it is difficult to imagine many realities of those times. It might be interesting for you to check out the movie Getto (2006):
https://www.youtube.com/user/bezsenny666/videos?view=1&flow=grid
It was filmed in Vilnius, there's a scene with Heino Ferch arguing with local Jews about his collaboration with Nazis that was very persuasive. The whole movie is precisely about the mode of action that you find so hard to imagine.

Thanks but there's no need to to link me to a movie called 'Ghetto' to get a point across on many realities of the past. I know authority historians from different countries. I know a thing or two on this subject and I could always consult academic literature if I need to.

If you don't mind me reminding you, I'll just add that you failed to tell apart the heavily Finnic influenced Latvian dialects from the Lithuanian ones at the first go. Or even Latgalian from Dzukian - but now that you already know what's what, you conveniently leave out that part of your first impression. Talking about subjectivity and the relevance of your perceptions :lol:

If you don't mind me reminding you, I'll just add that I didn't fail to recognise Dzukian dialect from Latgalian. I suspected Latgalian dialect could be Latgalian but I wasn't sure about it.I didn't do that badly for a person who doesn't speak in Baltic languages or dialects. You can have another giggle over the fact the non-native speaker didn't recognise all dialects.

Soviets were merely carrying on the practices that were initiated during the Tsarist occupation. There were Russification policies in place, like official bilingualism with Russian predominating in public structures just to give one example. So, nice try to portray the processes that took place during the Soviet occupation as not being a part of planned Slavic expansionism but it isn't really convincing.

Weren't Slavs responsible for instigating the revolt against Tsarist occupation in Belarus speaking of Kalinowski? In Vilnius which had few Baltic speakers at the time, and in Poland? Weren't some Slavs forcefully converted to Orthodoxy having their books in their native language banned from print too? I cannot understand why you are bragging on about it confronting me with the fact.

Being segregated abroad is not the norm. Only a fraction of all migrants live like that - and that's only happening in UK, rarely in Norway too but not anywhere else AFAIK. A large part of normal emigrants derogatively refer to those communities as "lietuvynai".

Segregations happen in places where immigrants live in large numbers. UK is one of those places as it attracts many emigrants from your country. There are regions in USA too not necessarily in which Lithuanians segregate.

Opening shops in itself is not a sign of segregation. There were very few Lithuanians in the neighborhood where I lived but there was a Lithuanian shop nearby. It catered to pretty much all Eastern immigrants from the area, not just the Lithuanians.

Okay eastern Europeans for that matter living in the vicinity as they are shops' main clients.

I was talking about the same people too. 10 years is not enough to change one's mentality? Then why did you yourself say that "it maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad"? Obviously, finances are not going to be an issue for those people - most Lithuanians abroad work for building up some savings. What things apart from the changes in mentality could make it difficult for them to come back? I can't think of any.

It’s not due to mentality change after 10 years but rather about having already settled in other countries. It’s about having relevant work experience for the current labour market of the country. It's about one's partner receiving education in another country, which is relevant only to that country in some instances. It’s about one's children having been assimilated into local community already. There're different reasons why it maybe difficult to return after spending 10 years abroad, for example of one family member doesn't want to return. I don't believe adults will change their mentality after 10 years, but people often get a different outlook on the world after spending some time abroad.

One can resist changes in one's mentality for only as long as one doesn't comprehend the people from the host country. Afterwards the changes become inevitable. It's like losing oneself, as little as just a few years is usually enough to make those changes visible for people from the home country. A decade abroad tends to have a rather profound effect.

Eight years is not long for an adult to change his or her mentality in most cases.

Did I say that emigration was not massive or did I specifically say that immigration was not massive? Once again, your reading comprehension skills are noted.

Linkus: Seriously though, emigration isn't a problem as long as there's no mass immigration to replace the population loss.
frolic: replying: 10-20%, let say 15% of the population on average leaving in 8 years since joining the EU is not a mass migration? I'd call it an exodus of people.

Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country; immigration is the act of moving into a non-native country or region. Migration can include both, emigration or immigration.

Okay?

Your snotty attitude of claiming expertize in a topic of which you know very little was what triggered the rant. It was not what what inspired the content of the rant, as I have already told you.

Quote me stating my expertise on the subject please. I am not an expert or portray myself as one, but I know about the subject more than 99% of people on this forum. I can assure you of that.

My annoyance stems from having found out about your views after having spent time discussing certain issues about Belarus that I would have never asked you anything about if I had know that you're such a biased bigot. I like how you went on about Belarusians being perfectly at peace with the knowledge that various nations have taken part in their ethnogenesis while those shrewd Lithies are bizarrely denying their Finnic heritage - while at the same time you were going through that major butthurt over the Baltic pas of your own region.

I don't believe your annoyance stems from what you claim. You became annoyed in this topic after I made a comment about western cultural influence on Lithuanian culture. All of a sudden you started bringing up comments into the discussion which were made in private conversation, on another forum and some 5 months ago many of which are irrelevant to the discussion, while accusing me of snottiness and bigotry. Other than you continue twisting the comments being made elsewhere, what my opinion on ethnogenesis of Belarusians and my butthurt over the Baltic past have to do with anything? The comments made earlier don't add up in your opinion therefore, I am a biased bigot? Even I am biased, although I don't know how, you should brag on accusing me in every opportunity in a discussion unrelated to your concerns? ;)

:picard1: I didn't say that you have an agenda to assimilate Balts. It's about you playing an objective jolly frolic observer while in reality you're a biased bigot.

Aww... In reality, I am always frank and honest with women. ;)

You are annoyed over the fact that I stated Lithuania had less western cultural influence than other Baltic nations. You picked on this right after I made such comments. It's obvious. Also, I've seen you arguing many times with other members from Latvia and Estonia over similar matters putting so much effort into it. Is there anyone who has shown some interest on matters related to the region you have not 'argued' yet? ;)